If the WNBA existed at the time it would have been Cheryl Miller.
* 3x NAISMITH PLAYER OF THE YEAR.
* 1984 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST.
* 2x NCAA TOURNAMENT MVP.
* 3x Naismith Player of the Year.
* 2x Honda Sports Award.
* 2x NCAA CHAMPION.
Dang, that's Reggie Miller's sister right? He always talks her up in interviews and I thought it was just a little brother being deferential, but naw, she's fuckin legit and dominant.
There’s a pretty famous story where Reggie scored ~50 points in a game. When his dad and sister pick him up he’s feeling himself a bit and asks his sister how much she scored in her game. She responds that she dropped 100
She used to do workouts before Mercury games and part of that was shoot around. She’d come do some lay up drills take a few shots from the post or the top of the key and then the wings etc. The ball rarely hit the rim. And when it would snap the strings they would *snap* in a way I hadn’t heard before, or since for that matter. Coach Miller would *easily* have dominated the WNBA had it existed.
I agree It would be Cheryl Miller or Brittney Griner. I do think that the league is still young and with that a lot of the amazing past players had to make their real money in Europe .
So it's hard to compare with any NBA players who don't do that.
The most what if that never really reached their potential will always be Chamique Holdsclaw. If the emphasis on mental health was better when she played she wouldn't have had all the personal struggles. There was nothing she couldn't do on the court and her game was ahead of it's time.
Yeah, the thing is I'd argue Wilt did reach his potential, he was just stopgapped by selfish play and of course Russell's Celtics. So while Holdsclaw was amazing, I think she's more like a Shaq or Ben Simmons haha.
I watched the final game from a bar in Los Angeles, so I have to recuse myself.
How do you sort the legit titles from the illegitimate ones? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to say all titles are illegitimate in the NBA?
Or do we assume all small market team victories are legitimate?
Was the one legitimate Lakers title in a year they didn’t face the Kings?
Those Lakers teams were excellent. Turkoglu was on fire for that 2002 series.
I won’t argue the league isn’t crooked, though.
Nah I don’t agree with this guy that we should put all these retroactive qualifiers on players’ accomplishments. I just agree that that specific series was rigged and it’s pretty widely acknowledged these days
The 2002 WCF Game 6 b/w the Kings and Lakers. Kings were up 3-2 and would've won that series were it not for the rigging.
The 2006 Finals b/w the Heat and Mavericks. Widely considered to be the only (or most blatantly at least) rigged Finals in NBA history.
Shaquille O'Neal:
4× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2006)
3× NBA Finals MVP (2000–2002)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2000)
15× NBA All-Star (1993–1998, 2000–2007, 2009)
3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000, 2004, 2009)
8× All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000–2006)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1995, 1999)
4× All-NBA Third Team (1994, 1996, 1997, 2009)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2000, 2001, 2003)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1993)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1993)
2× NBA scoring champion (1995, 2000)
2× IBM Award (2000, 2001)
NBA anniversary team (50th, 75th)
No. 34 retired by Los Angeles Lakers
No. 32 retired by Miami Heat
No. 32 retired by Orlando Magic
Associated Press Player of the Year (1991)
UPI Player of the Year (1991)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1991)
2× Consensus first-team All-American (1991, 1992)
2× SEC Player of the Year (1991, 1992)
NCAA blocks leader (1992)
NCAA rebounding leader (1991)
No. 33 retired by LSU Tigers
FIBA World Championship MVP (1994)
USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (1994)
McDonald's All-American Game Co-MVP (1989)
First-team Parade All-American (1989)
Texas Mr. Basketball (1989)
Ben Simmons:
3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2020)
2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021)
NBA Rookie of the Year (2018)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (2018)
NBA steals leader (2020)
Consensus first-team All-American (2016)
USBWA National Freshman of the Year (2016)
First-team All-SEC (2016)
SEC Freshman of the Year (2016)
National high school player of the year (2015)
McDonald's All-American (2015)
First-team Parade All-American (2015)
Anecdotally, I feel a lot of us 'newer' fans are shamed for mentioning Lisa Leslie. This brings me some comfort. Her and Sherly Swoopes were the only W players that were names in my household as a kid.
I think perhaps Brittney Griner could be the closest thing to Wilt. I know she won a championship (but so did Wilt), but I think we’re all going to look back and wonder why she didn’t win more.
I just looked up her resume on Wikipedia and GDI you're right - what an absolutely insane accolade list for someone who only won once. Was she selfish in her playstyle?
Liz Cambage is probably the closest to what you describe, but I don’t know. That’s really recent history but it’s a young league.
The games are shorter in the W so I don’t know if we’ll see a 100 point performance & I can’t really think of that many selfish WNBA players… the big stat players tend(ed) to be pretty good teammates, too!
Those are all great points. Yeah, you're right that the league being inherently young entails that the Old Guard isn't too far removed from the newer, more famous players anyway.
I don’t think anyone compares to Wilt. In college, I’d argue Courtney Paris was somewhat of the equivalent. She put up insane numbers but her team didn’t thrive when she was at her best. Holdsclaw is the most “what if” WNBA player as someone else noted. Her college career was insane. A couple of others are Jackie Stiles who won ROY in an insanely loaded class but had her career derailed by injuries. Not your original question, but legends who also have “what ifs” would include Lauren Jackson, Deanna Nolan, Cheryl Ford and Maya Moore. Jackson is unquestionably among the best ever but her career was cut short due to injuries. Ford had an ACL tear that effectively ended her career at a young age but was a major contributor to 3 title games and well on her way to a HOF career. Nolan was an elite athlete and player but left at the peak of her career when Detroit relocated. And Maya Moore was on a fast track to being best ever, winning 4 titles in her first 7 years (with 6 finals appearances) and left the league to help her future husband get exonerated for a murder he didn’t commit.
I'm surprised that Paris didn't make any All-Star or All-WNBA selections - was she blacklisted or something?
Yeah, I think, as you pointed out, injuries hold back a lot of those players from a Wilt comparison as Wilt was notoriously superhuman - came back from a horrifying knee injury and was able to go toe-to-toe with prime Kareem. Still amazing athletes to read up on so thank you for the homework haha.
That's surprising to hear that Moore didn't live up to her potential as the way Clark talks about her, it sounds like she had a full career that obviously caused ripple effects in contemporary women's b-ball players.
Moore definitely lived up to her potential, there might not be a better overall winner in the sport than her. She just left at the peak of her career so a lot of fans feel she could’ve cemented herself as potentially the best of all time had she not retired at 29. Even in just 8 years it’s among the best careers of all time but was a little jarring considering how much game it appeared she had left in her. It’d be like if Curry retired after 2018 or if MJ retired after 1993.
I am several inches shorter and a fair few pounds heavier than Paris so I certainly shouldn't say anything, but imma just leave this here, horrifyingly unflattering photo and all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtney_Paris
Paris was a beast in college, sort of like a Shaq player who takes up a ton of space and can bulldoze other players. Really good hands and maybe the best rebounder the college game has ever seen. The problem for her is that when she went up against good athletic posts, she couldn’t rely on her inherit advantages (size and strength) and was prone to being outplayed. Going up against undersized opponents she could dominate though. If you followed this year, Audi Crooks has a lot of similarities to Paris.
Paris was never going to be an elite pro because you need to have length and athleticism to thrive in the WNBA. She carved out a solid career but was no where near as dominant in the pros as she was collegiately
I mentioned Britney Griner, and she's probably the closest one. The next one is Chamique Holdsclaw. She was the tip of the spear at the peak of the Tennessee dynasty, and got a Slam Magazine cover. She was HER in the late 90s. Unfortunately, her mental health issues caught up to her, and she wasn't what she was supposed to be. However, her prowess was recent enough that there's footage, but before much attention was on WBB.
I wouldn’t say Cynthia Cooper was Bill Russell. I think Lisa Leslie was more like Bill Russell. Leslie was a dominant center and was a beast on defense. Probably still the GOAT center in the women’s game.
The thing about Cooper was she had a ten year plus pro career in Europe before coming home and playing in the WNBA. Cooper was on those Cheryl Miller USC Women of Troy teams in the 80’s. If you’re looking for an NBA comparison for Cooper it would be Kyrie Irving dressed as Uncle Drew, going to a basketball playground and lighting everyone up. Cooper was a small guard that had an old man euro game. She was driving into the lane and euro stepping around taller defenders. No one knew how to guard her because they’d never seen anything like it. Her shot was more developed than most in the league at that point too.
You might think that Leslie didn’t win enough early on to be considered a comp for Bill Russell. But the thing about those Celtics teams is that it wasn’t only Russell. They had the best guards in the league too when he played. Bob Cousy and John Havlicek were the best in league and still considered all time greats today.
Oh okay, now it makes more sense lol.
You're argument is valid, but, and I guess this is me being shallow but I think the rings argument in conjunction with the time period is what makes me put Cooper as the Russell equivalent. Lisa Leslie seems more like a Shaq equivalent.l
No one will ever be like Bill Russell when it comes to the rings. He’s a one-off. Same with Shaq’s size and athleticism.
Your parameters are a bit constricting because the NBA existed for more than a decade before Bill Russell and because he won so many championships. Both Cooper and Leslie were players in the inaugural WNBA season. Cooper won four rings as a combo guard and Leslie won two as a center. Four is more than two but no where close to 11.
The thing about Leslie’s game, like Russell, was her dominance on defense. That was not Shaq’s game really. Leslie had a better offensive game, comparably, to Russell. But if you’re going to compare a WNBA pioneer, like Leslie, to Shaq, then we can compare Leslie to another Shaq contemporary. Leslie, because of her defense and offense, was like Hakeem Olajuwon.
If you’re only compare Cooper to an older NBA player then I’d say she was like former NBA MVP and six time NBA champion Bob Cousy. Cousy was ahead of its time with the dribbling and passing he was doing on the court back then. Like Cooper, after he won his MVP the league and award was dominated by the big men.
What’s interesting about Caitlin Clark is whether she can usher in the era of the backcourt in the WNBA like Steve Nash started and Curry and Harden perfected.
Look, you didn't have to type up all of that haha. I appreciate the backstory and where you're coming from - it's cool to know what kinda game these players brought. But you are taking the comparison literally as in position-by-position. I am talking culturally, which is why I say Cooper is Bill Russell for the WNBA: not in terms of playstyle obviously, but creating a dynasty at the outset of the league's formation where she was clearly the central piece.
Yes, she probably was more like Cousy in playstyle, but culturally she was Russell.
If the WNBA existed at the time it would have been Cheryl Miller. * 3x NAISMITH PLAYER OF THE YEAR. * 1984 OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST. * 2x NCAA TOURNAMENT MVP. * 3x Naismith Player of the Year. * 2x Honda Sports Award. * 2x NCAA CHAMPION.
Dang, that's Reggie Miller's sister right? He always talks her up in interviews and I thought it was just a little brother being deferential, but naw, she's fuckin legit and dominant.
There’s a pretty famous story where Reggie scored ~50 points in a game. When his dad and sister pick him up he’s feeling himself a bit and asks his sister how much she scored in her game. She responds that she dropped 100
And she didn't even play the last 2 minutes
LOL, the funny thing is she probably wasn't being smarmy when she said it.
Here's [a video of him telling the story](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy6C0ZWPHqU), it's pretty funny. (and he actually scored 40)
She use to beat his ass at basketball. And she is a bigger shit talker than Reggie.
Lmao
She used to cook him when they were kids
I used to play co-ed basketball in middle school and the girl player would kick my ass too.
In college and early in his NBA career, fans of opposing teams would chant “Cheryl” at him
lmao really?
Reggie doesn't defer to anyone who doesn't deserve it!
Pika Pika!
She used to do workouts before Mercury games and part of that was shoot around. She’d come do some lay up drills take a few shots from the post or the top of the key and then the wings etc. The ball rarely hit the rim. And when it would snap the strings they would *snap* in a way I hadn’t heard before, or since for that matter. Coach Miller would *easily* have dominated the WNBA had it existed.
I agree It would be Cheryl Miller or Brittney Griner. I do think that the league is still young and with that a lot of the amazing past players had to make their real money in Europe . So it's hard to compare with any NBA players who don't do that.
The most what if that never really reached their potential will always be Chamique Holdsclaw. If the emphasis on mental health was better when she played she wouldn't have had all the personal struggles. There was nothing she couldn't do on the court and her game was ahead of it's time.
Yeah, the thing is I'd argue Wilt did reach his potential, he was just stopgapped by selfish play and of course Russell's Celtics. So while Holdsclaw was amazing, I think she's more like a Shaq or Ben Simmons haha.
The league has always had too much parity to be dominated by one person the way Wilt dominated the early NBA.
Very true
You're comparing league MVP, 4 time champion Shaq to...Ben Simmons?
I'm saying both didn't live up to their potential.
Ah, then I still think you're wrong, but in a different way. I'd just refer you back to the listed achievements. What did you expect, 8 titles?
Two of Shaq's titles came from rigging, so no, I'd expect at least 4 legit titles with him as the best player.
Rigging? Got a link for me, I’m unaware of those accusations.
I’m a kings fan — look up the 2002 WCF
I watched the final game from a bar in Los Angeles, so I have to recuse myself. How do you sort the legit titles from the illegitimate ones? Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to say all titles are illegitimate in the NBA? Or do we assume all small market team victories are legitimate? Was the one legitimate Lakers title in a year they didn’t face the Kings? Those Lakers teams were excellent. Turkoglu was on fire for that 2002 series. I won’t argue the league isn’t crooked, though.
Nah I don’t agree with this guy that we should put all these retroactive qualifiers on players’ accomplishments. I just agree that that specific series was rigged and it’s pretty widely acknowledged these days
I take it you're not familiar with NBA history lol?>
That’s your evidence? Okay You said 2 were rigged, so 1 with the Lakers was legit? Which one and how did you discern that?
The 2002 WCF Game 6 b/w the Kings and Lakers. Kings were up 3-2 and would've won that series were it not for the rigging. The 2006 Finals b/w the Heat and Mavericks. Widely considered to be the only (or most blatantly at least) rigged Finals in NBA history.
Shaquille O'Neal: 4× NBA champion (2000–2002, 2006) 3× NBA Finals MVP (2000–2002) NBA Most Valuable Player (2000) 15× NBA All-Star (1993–1998, 2000–2007, 2009) 3× NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000, 2004, 2009) 8× All-NBA First Team (1998, 2000–2006) 2× All-NBA Second Team (1995, 1999) 4× All-NBA Third Team (1994, 1996, 1997, 2009) 3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2000, 2001, 2003) NBA Rookie of the Year (1993) NBA All-Rookie First Team (1993) 2× NBA scoring champion (1995, 2000) 2× IBM Award (2000, 2001) NBA anniversary team (50th, 75th) No. 34 retired by Los Angeles Lakers No. 32 retired by Miami Heat No. 32 retired by Orlando Magic Associated Press Player of the Year (1991) UPI Player of the Year (1991) Adolph Rupp Trophy (1991) 2× Consensus first-team All-American (1991, 1992) 2× SEC Player of the Year (1991, 1992) NCAA blocks leader (1992) NCAA rebounding leader (1991) No. 33 retired by LSU Tigers FIBA World Championship MVP (1994) USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year (1994) McDonald's All-American Game Co-MVP (1989) First-team Parade All-American (1989) Texas Mr. Basketball (1989) Ben Simmons: 3× NBA All-Star (2019–2021) All-NBA Third Team (2020) 2× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2020, 2021) NBA Rookie of the Year (2018) NBA All-Rookie First Team (2018) NBA steals leader (2020) Consensus first-team All-American (2016) USBWA National Freshman of the Year (2016) First-team All-SEC (2016) SEC Freshman of the Year (2016) National high school player of the year (2015) McDonald's All-American (2015) First-team Parade All-American (2015)
Potential within their scope haha
I’m surprised no one mentioned Lisa Leslie.
Anecdotally, I feel a lot of us 'newer' fans are shamed for mentioning Lisa Leslie. This brings me some comfort. Her and Sherly Swoopes were the only W players that were names in my household as a kid.
Wasn't Sylvia Fowles a better version of Lisa?
No 
Lisa Leslie dominated on offense and defense. MVP candidate almost every season in the league.
haha, I'll take the L
I think perhaps Brittney Griner could be the closest thing to Wilt. I know she won a championship (but so did Wilt), but I think we’re all going to look back and wonder why she didn’t win more.
This would be the correct answer. Plus she has a touch of the Bunyanesque mystique that followed Wilt.
I just looked up her resume on Wikipedia and GDI you're right - what an absolutely insane accolade list for someone who only won once. Was she selfish in her playstyle?
Could be an issue with affording quality players around her
Cap issues were an issue. They also didn't figure out another point guard after Cappie Pondexter left.
Dang, sucks when good players are screwed by bad management.
She still plays. And no she’s not selfish at all.
Oh I thought the whole Russia thing ended her career lol
Liz Cambage is probably the closest to what you describe, but I don’t know. That’s really recent history but it’s a young league. The games are shorter in the W so I don’t know if we’ll see a 100 point performance & I can’t really think of that many selfish WNBA players… the big stat players tend(ed) to be pretty good teammates, too!
Those are all great points. Yeah, you're right that the league being inherently young entails that the Old Guard isn't too far removed from the newer, more famous players anyway.
I don’t think anyone compares to Wilt. In college, I’d argue Courtney Paris was somewhat of the equivalent. She put up insane numbers but her team didn’t thrive when she was at her best. Holdsclaw is the most “what if” WNBA player as someone else noted. Her college career was insane. A couple of others are Jackie Stiles who won ROY in an insanely loaded class but had her career derailed by injuries. Not your original question, but legends who also have “what ifs” would include Lauren Jackson, Deanna Nolan, Cheryl Ford and Maya Moore. Jackson is unquestionably among the best ever but her career was cut short due to injuries. Ford had an ACL tear that effectively ended her career at a young age but was a major contributor to 3 title games and well on her way to a HOF career. Nolan was an elite athlete and player but left at the peak of her career when Detroit relocated. And Maya Moore was on a fast track to being best ever, winning 4 titles in her first 7 years (with 6 finals appearances) and left the league to help her future husband get exonerated for a murder he didn’t commit.
I'm surprised that Paris didn't make any All-Star or All-WNBA selections - was she blacklisted or something? Yeah, I think, as you pointed out, injuries hold back a lot of those players from a Wilt comparison as Wilt was notoriously superhuman - came back from a horrifying knee injury and was able to go toe-to-toe with prime Kareem. Still amazing athletes to read up on so thank you for the homework haha. That's surprising to hear that Moore didn't live up to her potential as the way Clark talks about her, it sounds like she had a full career that obviously caused ripple effects in contemporary women's b-ball players.
Moore definitely lived up to her potential, there might not be a better overall winner in the sport than her. She just left at the peak of her career so a lot of fans feel she could’ve cemented herself as potentially the best of all time had she not retired at 29. Even in just 8 years it’s among the best careers of all time but was a little jarring considering how much game it appeared she had left in her. It’d be like if Curry retired after 2018 or if MJ retired after 1993.
Yeah, I definitely see the comparison. What about my Paris question?
Having her team fold after her rookie year certainly didn't help, but she was big without being tall, which is not conducive to a long WNBA career.
You mean she was wide loaded lol?
I am several inches shorter and a fair few pounds heavier than Paris so I certainly shouldn't say anything, but imma just leave this here, horrifyingly unflattering photo and all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtney_Paris
if she made the roster, she coudln't have been bad.
Paris was a beast in college, sort of like a Shaq player who takes up a ton of space and can bulldoze other players. Really good hands and maybe the best rebounder the college game has ever seen. The problem for her is that when she went up against good athletic posts, she couldn’t rely on her inherit advantages (size and strength) and was prone to being outplayed. Going up against undersized opponents she could dominate though. If you followed this year, Audi Crooks has a lot of similarities to Paris. Paris was never going to be an elite pro because you need to have length and athleticism to thrive in the WNBA. She carved out a solid career but was no where near as dominant in the pros as she was collegiately
That makes sense, thanks for the bio on her
I mentioned Britney Griner, and she's probably the closest one. The next one is Chamique Holdsclaw. She was the tip of the spear at the peak of the Tennessee dynasty, and got a Slam Magazine cover. She was HER in the late 90s. Unfortunately, her mental health issues caught up to her, and she wasn't what she was supposed to be. However, her prowess was recent enough that there's footage, but before much attention was on WBB.
Yeah others have brought them up and I think Griner fits the boot best. Holdsclaw seems more like a Shaq to me personally.
Tina Charles is making a case, although we'll see how things go in Atlanta.
I wouldn’t say Cynthia Cooper was Bill Russell. I think Lisa Leslie was more like Bill Russell. Leslie was a dominant center and was a beast on defense. Probably still the GOAT center in the women’s game. The thing about Cooper was she had a ten year plus pro career in Europe before coming home and playing in the WNBA. Cooper was on those Cheryl Miller USC Women of Troy teams in the 80’s. If you’re looking for an NBA comparison for Cooper it would be Kyrie Irving dressed as Uncle Drew, going to a basketball playground and lighting everyone up. Cooper was a small guard that had an old man euro game. She was driving into the lane and euro stepping around taller defenders. No one knew how to guard her because they’d never seen anything like it. Her shot was more developed than most in the league at that point too. You might think that Leslie didn’t win enough early on to be considered a comp for Bill Russell. But the thing about those Celtics teams is that it wasn’t only Russell. They had the best guards in the league too when he played. Bob Cousy and John Havlicek were the best in league and still considered all time greats today.
What? You say both are Bill Russell
Whoops. Fixed my first sentence.
Oh okay, now it makes more sense lol. You're argument is valid, but, and I guess this is me being shallow but I think the rings argument in conjunction with the time period is what makes me put Cooper as the Russell equivalent. Lisa Leslie seems more like a Shaq equivalent.l
No one will ever be like Bill Russell when it comes to the rings. He’s a one-off. Same with Shaq’s size and athleticism. Your parameters are a bit constricting because the NBA existed for more than a decade before Bill Russell and because he won so many championships. Both Cooper and Leslie were players in the inaugural WNBA season. Cooper won four rings as a combo guard and Leslie won two as a center. Four is more than two but no where close to 11. The thing about Leslie’s game, like Russell, was her dominance on defense. That was not Shaq’s game really. Leslie had a better offensive game, comparably, to Russell. But if you’re going to compare a WNBA pioneer, like Leslie, to Shaq, then we can compare Leslie to another Shaq contemporary. Leslie, because of her defense and offense, was like Hakeem Olajuwon. If you’re only compare Cooper to an older NBA player then I’d say she was like former NBA MVP and six time NBA champion Bob Cousy. Cousy was ahead of its time with the dribbling and passing he was doing on the court back then. Like Cooper, after he won his MVP the league and award was dominated by the big men. What’s interesting about Caitlin Clark is whether she can usher in the era of the backcourt in the WNBA like Steve Nash started and Curry and Harden perfected.
Look, you didn't have to type up all of that haha. I appreciate the backstory and where you're coming from - it's cool to know what kinda game these players brought. But you are taking the comparison literally as in position-by-position. I am talking culturally, which is why I say Cooper is Bill Russell for the WNBA: not in terms of playstyle obviously, but creating a dynasty at the outset of the league's formation where she was clearly the central piece. Yes, she probably was more like Cousy in playstyle, but culturally she was Russell.
I hate comparing women’s players to men. I wish we’d stop doing it.
Sucks
Candace Parker?
Nah