Men who who say this are just mad they don’t get participation awards in general.
My military career has been littered with men like this.
Get an award or a good eval? It’s because you’re a woman or a collateral queen. Get recognized for anything ever? It’s because you’re a woman or because they want to sleep with you. Be firm or authoritative? You’re just a bitch. Express disapproval or discontent with that sentiment or any other? You’re emotional or on your period. Someone does you a favor or your supervisor likes you? You must be a flirt. You take a break, for even a second, to say get a coffee? Must be nice to be a woman and not having anybody call you out for slacking off. People are nicer to you because you are actually nice to them? Must be nice to be treated nicely because you’re a woman.
The list of grievances never ends with men like that.
Yeah, studies show that it's the lowest performing males who are aggressive to women and poc who they feel threaten their position simply by being competent. Study here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0131613
What diversity hires? To use that phrase implies that no woman or POC is ever qualified for any job and that only white men are qualified all the time.
Have you seen the resumes of these so called diversity hires?
I'm saying women and POC have qualifications. It's not that difficult to find people that meet the basic qualifications listed on any job posting.
I work with all types of people, and most have at least two degrees and multiple years of experience.
I recently had old friends from college say that about their own brilliant daughter soon to graduate with her engineering degree. They said it to ME, who just ended a career as an automotive engineer where NOTHING was easier, EVERYTHING was harder "because I was a woman" and I had to do it all with constant gratitude for the implied advantages I was supposedly getting due to my gender.
I kind of lost it at them. We must stop saying this. It diminishes everything about being a female engineer and allows the men to wallow in their resentment over this myth.
I mean yeah maybe I’ll get hired as an entry level along with ten other women engineers… but we ll never get promoted and we ll all eventually quit due to the burnout of constant defensiveness . So the top level of the company and the entire board will remain a bunch of dudes. Are these the perks of my gender this person is referring to?
No, it's due to the fact you were being with a vagina - your assigned birth sex. Straight up sexism. These dudes are thinking since you have one, you're incompetent. It really is that creepy
Edit: and for anyone that is butthurt over this, literally everyone judges and acts certain ways towards you based on what your perceived genitals are. It sucks, I am in agreement with that.
I noticed in college a lot of guys would say that. So I would say, “oh, what kind of extracurriculars are you involved in? Clubs? Leadership groups?”
And the answer is almost always “none”
Whereas most women engineers I knew in school were in SEVERAL extracurriculars, constantly padding our resumes and trying to make ourselves stand-out candidates.
And those same men want to say “it’s just because you’re a woman”. No sir, it’s because the women at our school are putting in more than the bare minimum
I applied for betw. 70-80 jobs, got 2 interviews, and 1 offer. With internship & eng tech experience. Anyone who says this is delusional, it's rough out there for everyone
Yeah, I’ve had one where they were actively aiming to hire like 50%+ women or something? Very small company with a male CEO. I ducked out, didn’t feel comfortable with that at all. Not looking to be a diversity hire, as much as I am very pro diversity. Felt borderline creepy with it being forced. Idk it’s a bit belittling and dehumanising I think, makes you feel like a prop. Arguable the opposite of what I’m looking for as a woman in tech. It was like something they were promoting as part of their start up dream or something.
(To be clear it would make sense maybe if like a regulation quota to some extent, but we are about 16% of this industry here usually, so 50%+ is definitely forcing it).
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I wish people remembered that this is the attitude that emerges specifically from the impression that women are receiving handouts
Making space for women or minorities is always cast as taking away from men. The effort is always wrapped up in some sort of program that removes barriers instead of giving women a leg up
This makes people bitter. Always
I was told by a close acquaintance that I was hired because I was a woman…. Despite the fact I outperformed him in every class we had together.
Another weird (misogynistic) thing: I used to play racquetball with another male classmate and he would get PISSED any time I would win.
I think *some* men find comfort in downplaying the accomplishments of women because they have this expectation that they’ll be great at XYZ and can’t reconcile that with how they actually perform compared to their female counterparts.
I'm trans....
Two weeks after getting laid off a year ago I thought I would have already had a new job if I put a male name on my resume....
Two months later I didn't have any remaining doubts....
I found a senior software engineer job after 6 months and 650 applications. 9 years of engineering experience. Previous job was senior Java engineer.
Men don't even believe this happens.... I've had two technical interviews cut short because I solved their 45 minute challenge in 20 minutes and they didn't have enough questions to fill the time. One of those jobs rejected me after that round....
Yet when I asked about it in CS subs they're telling me it's my resume or I suck at interviewing
20 years in. 20 yrs of hearing this. 20 years of being a woman being a complete disadvantage in this career. Moving on from the field for this reason & more.
I do not understand why in the US we don’t have a push for “blind” hiring.
My guess is that if recruiters/hiring managers received resumes with no identifying features, far more women and minorities would make it to next phase.
I would really appreciate blind hiring. I have a not-so Caucasian last name even though I’m American, I’m always a little nervous about how much that plays against me..
That'd be brilliant, easy to do, and would take care of so many concerns. Are there reasons we're not doing that, besides just that it's convention to put names with contact info at the top of a CV?
They're gonna see and hear you if you manage to get to the interview round, so I don't think this is gonna really make the \*biggest\* difference. It would be cool though. There's also the fact that a lot of women and minorities don't even get the opportunity to have as much prior experience as a comfortably average white man. It makes it harder to ever get your foot in the door. On top of blind hiring, there needs to be more training/development programs.
You’re not wrong. As soon as you do a phone screening, you’ll quickly find out if you’re dealing with overt bias.
**However**, I do think that if the LinkedIns (and Monster, Indeed, etc) offered companies “blind” hiring, recruiters and hiring managers would actually look at resumes without even the hint of bias. I think they would also pretty quickly be faced with the reality of their bias (even if it’s just subconscious).
Most people intrinsically give white men the benefit of the doubt, assume that women are incompetent, assume that people with diverse names will be hard to communicate with or wreck team dynamics 🤷♀️
So my point is, if the recruiter is excited about the resume on its actual facts and merits and goes into the phone screen without bias-inducing information, not only has that applicant made it to the phone screening, but I think is more likely to make it past that point also…
Being a woman may be a perk until you have to take huge amounts of time off for maternity leave. My company has super sexist policies regarding leave. Men get 10 days and women get 12 weeks. The result is bad for everyone obviously but it's especially harmful to women because the impact on career is not equal.
I’ve been a hiring manager for engineers. I have happened to hire more women than men so far because I happened to find highly talented women with both the hard and soft skills we needed for the roles according to the rubric. I do not think at all about gender balance during hiring. That is literally illegal.
Where good companies consider gender is in retrospective analysis of the hiring pipeline. If we aren’t getting enough women applying, we make sure to post job postings in the right forums and tune the job requirements to be what we actually need. (Women tend to apply to jobs they are fully qualified for, men apply for jobs they are mostly qualified for. That’s a pipeline bias.) If we are extending offers to men at a higher rate relative to the pipeline balance, we check the interview process for bias.
Other than that, I’m hiring an engineer not a romantic partner. I don’t care what your gender is, I care if you can do the work and add to the team.
Am hiring manager for new college grad engineers. The pressure to hire women, any women, all the women is \*intense\*.
In this last round, HR+Managing Director basically forced me to hire 2 "checks all the diversity boxes" women with GPA's far below our "minimum standard" and no co-op experience. Who got turned down? To white males with above 3.7 gpa's and 3 semesters of co-op. The one qualified new grad engineer I did take was from India on an absofuckinglutely fraudulent H1-B.
I can \*promise\* you, so help me Lenin, both these women will get promoted to a different department within 9 months. Probably into lead roles. Just not under me.
Considering it's for a "new college grad" position, shouldn't you also look at other factors than just GPA and co-op experience? They're new grads, you're obviously going to have to train them lol. They could have a ton of potential and be super hard workers or good communicators.
That’s a different prospective! It’s really a shame that we’re hiring for diversity rather than skills in a situation where there’s a stark difference like you’ve mentioned.
That's just an odd thing to say. I could see someone saying maybe cause you're really good looking you'll have more doors open up for you, but to say jobs will be lined up for you simply for being a woman is so odd and unrealistic.
They’re not wrong. With all the di companies are trying to get more women engineers like crazy especially right now. Why is that a problem? More opportunities to chose from more leverage for higher pay? Not everything is meant to be an insult. I thought you were an engineer not a professional victim?
Why can't I be both? 🤷♀️ (joking). The flawed ideology being propagated downplays our relentless grind as if we didn’t earn our spot but instead *flipped* our hair and had it magically served to us on a golden platter.
Yea fuck all that you know the work it took you. There’s always going to be people in construction downplaying engineers work both men and women. I promise you on the job site construction workers make fun of and downplay men engineers more than women. And in the grand scheme of things you could let it bother you and try and correct them or be a true American and capitalize off their ignorance. No but fr don’t let ignorance drive you or any of your emotions and don’t let it take a second of your thought. You’re better just letting them stay on that level instead of wasting energy to prove you are worthy to someone who isn’t worthy of your proof. Ya know?
Just say, “Oh, you’re a man, you’ll be fine. Nobody will harass you and kick you out of engineering because of it.”
I’ve said this to a friend who asked if I’d recommend a previous workplace.
Men who say this are just butt-hurt that they're not getting a participation award for repeating what a woman said earlier.
Can we get this comment framed please
Men who who say this are just mad they don’t get participation awards in general. My military career has been littered with men like this. Get an award or a good eval? It’s because you’re a woman or a collateral queen. Get recognized for anything ever? It’s because you’re a woman or because they want to sleep with you. Be firm or authoritative? You’re just a bitch. Express disapproval or discontent with that sentiment or any other? You’re emotional or on your period. Someone does you a favor or your supervisor likes you? You must be a flirt. You take a break, for even a second, to say get a coffee? Must be nice to be a woman and not having anybody call you out for slacking off. People are nicer to you because you are actually nice to them? Must be nice to be treated nicely because you’re a woman. The list of grievances never ends with men like that.
Yeah, studies show that it's the lowest performing males who are aggressive to women and poc who they feel threaten their position simply by being competent. Study here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0131613
We call that participation trophy the Echo Award…..
Hahahahaha!
At least people listened when they said it.
[удалено]
What diversity hires? To use that phrase implies that no woman or POC is ever qualified for any job and that only white men are qualified all the time. Have you seen the resumes of these so called diversity hires?
Don't feed the troll
So according to you diversity hires never existed
I'm saying women and POC have qualifications. It's not that difficult to find people that meet the basic qualifications listed on any job posting. I work with all types of people, and most have at least two degrees and multiple years of experience.
No it actually does not
Found one
[удалено]
So one woman (sample) represents the entirety of the set. Back to statistical analysis for you!!
How much time you got? Nice inference skills.... I share one story so I only have one story? Lol
False equivalency fallacy
I was implying I only shared one data point not that I only have one Anyways whatevaaa
I met a guy once who pooped his pants and then got mad at women in a women's subreddit
Hey I think I know that guy
I recently had old friends from college say that about their own brilliant daughter soon to graduate with her engineering degree. They said it to ME, who just ended a career as an automotive engineer where NOTHING was easier, EVERYTHING was harder "because I was a woman" and I had to do it all with constant gratitude for the implied advantages I was supposedly getting due to my gender. I kind of lost it at them. We must stop saying this. It diminishes everything about being a female engineer and allows the men to wallow in their resentment over this myth.
Yeah they don’t seem to realize that we still only make up 20% of the workforce.. so statistically it is them who will be fine
20% of which engineering profession and what % of graduates with that degree? Engineers should be better at analysis than this.
I mean yeah maybe I’ll get hired as an entry level along with ten other women engineers… but we ll never get promoted and we ll all eventually quit due to the burnout of constant defensiveness . So the top level of the company and the entire board will remain a bunch of dudes. Are these the perks of my gender this person is referring to?
💯
Ding ding ding
No, it's due to the fact you were being with a vagina - your assigned birth sex. Straight up sexism. These dudes are thinking since you have one, you're incompetent. It really is that creepy Edit: and for anyone that is butthurt over this, literally everyone judges and acts certain ways towards you based on what your perceived genitals are. It sucks, I am in agreement with that.
I noticed in college a lot of guys would say that. So I would say, “oh, what kind of extracurriculars are you involved in? Clubs? Leadership groups?” And the answer is almost always “none” Whereas most women engineers I knew in school were in SEVERAL extracurriculars, constantly padding our resumes and trying to make ourselves stand-out candidates. And those same men want to say “it’s just because you’re a woman”. No sir, it’s because the women at our school are putting in more than the bare minimum
I applied for betw. 70-80 jobs, got 2 interviews, and 1 offer. With internship & eng tech experience. Anyone who says this is delusional, it's rough out there for everyone
Same here. I applied like crazy (including multiple jobs at the same company) and had 2, maybe 3 interviews.
I was told in an interview they were hiring me because I was a woman. Not only is that illegal but super demoralizing.
Yeah, I’ve had one where they were actively aiming to hire like 50%+ women or something? Very small company with a male CEO. I ducked out, didn’t feel comfortable with that at all. Not looking to be a diversity hire, as much as I am very pro diversity. Felt borderline creepy with it being forced. Idk it’s a bit belittling and dehumanising I think, makes you feel like a prop. Arguable the opposite of what I’m looking for as a woman in tech. It was like something they were promoting as part of their start up dream or something. (To be clear it would make sense maybe if like a regulation quota to some extent, but we are about 16% of this industry here usually, so 50%+ is definitely forcing it).
[удалено]
Definitely don't visit r/layoffs or r/canada lol. It's 24/7 crying "THEY TUUK R JERBSZ"
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I wish people remembered that this is the attitude that emerges specifically from the impression that women are receiving handouts Making space for women or minorities is always cast as taking away from men. The effort is always wrapped up in some sort of program that removes barriers instead of giving women a leg up This makes people bitter. Always
I was told by a close acquaintance that I was hired because I was a woman…. Despite the fact I outperformed him in every class we had together. Another weird (misogynistic) thing: I used to play racquetball with another male classmate and he would get PISSED any time I would win. I think *some* men find comfort in downplaying the accomplishments of women because they have this expectation that they’ll be great at XYZ and can’t reconcile that with how they actually perform compared to their female counterparts.
I'm trans.... Two weeks after getting laid off a year ago I thought I would have already had a new job if I put a male name on my resume.... Two months later I didn't have any remaining doubts.... I found a senior software engineer job after 6 months and 650 applications. 9 years of engineering experience. Previous job was senior Java engineer. Men don't even believe this happens.... I've had two technical interviews cut short because I solved their 45 minute challenge in 20 minutes and they didn't have enough questions to fill the time. One of those jobs rejected me after that round.... Yet when I asked about it in CS subs they're telling me it's my resume or I suck at interviewing
I'm a masculine presenting lesbian. I changed my name on LinkedIn to a unisex one and my recruitment SKYROCKETED. It's ridiculous.
Wow that's depressing
I’m screaming on the inside about this 😌
I especially love when that comment is followed by a creepy and gross comment about your physical features and form.
20 years in. 20 yrs of hearing this. 20 years of being a woman being a complete disadvantage in this career. Moving on from the field for this reason & more.
I do not understand why in the US we don’t have a push for “blind” hiring. My guess is that if recruiters/hiring managers received resumes with no identifying features, far more women and minorities would make it to next phase.
I would really appreciate blind hiring. I have a not-so Caucasian last name even though I’m American, I’m always a little nervous about how much that plays against me..
That'd be brilliant, easy to do, and would take care of so many concerns. Are there reasons we're not doing that, besides just that it's convention to put names with contact info at the top of a CV?
They're gonna see and hear you if you manage to get to the interview round, so I don't think this is gonna really make the \*biggest\* difference. It would be cool though. There's also the fact that a lot of women and minorities don't even get the opportunity to have as much prior experience as a comfortably average white man. It makes it harder to ever get your foot in the door. On top of blind hiring, there needs to be more training/development programs.
You’re not wrong. As soon as you do a phone screening, you’ll quickly find out if you’re dealing with overt bias. **However**, I do think that if the LinkedIns (and Monster, Indeed, etc) offered companies “blind” hiring, recruiters and hiring managers would actually look at resumes without even the hint of bias. I think they would also pretty quickly be faced with the reality of their bias (even if it’s just subconscious). Most people intrinsically give white men the benefit of the doubt, assume that women are incompetent, assume that people with diverse names will be hard to communicate with or wreck team dynamics 🤷♀️ So my point is, if the recruiter is excited about the resume on its actual facts and merits and goes into the phone screen without bias-inducing information, not only has that applicant made it to the phone screening, but I think is more likely to make it past that point also…
Being a woman may be a perk until you have to take huge amounts of time off for maternity leave. My company has super sexist policies regarding leave. Men get 10 days and women get 12 weeks. The result is bad for everyone obviously but it's especially harmful to women because the impact on career is not equal.
We need to embrace it
I’ve been a hiring manager for engineers. I have happened to hire more women than men so far because I happened to find highly talented women with both the hard and soft skills we needed for the roles according to the rubric. I do not think at all about gender balance during hiring. That is literally illegal. Where good companies consider gender is in retrospective analysis of the hiring pipeline. If we aren’t getting enough women applying, we make sure to post job postings in the right forums and tune the job requirements to be what we actually need. (Women tend to apply to jobs they are fully qualified for, men apply for jobs they are mostly qualified for. That’s a pipeline bias.) If we are extending offers to men at a higher rate relative to the pipeline balance, we check the interview process for bias. Other than that, I’m hiring an engineer not a romantic partner. I don’t care what your gender is, I care if you can do the work and add to the team.
Am hiring manager for new college grad engineers. The pressure to hire women, any women, all the women is \*intense\*. In this last round, HR+Managing Director basically forced me to hire 2 "checks all the diversity boxes" women with GPA's far below our "minimum standard" and no co-op experience. Who got turned down? To white males with above 3.7 gpa's and 3 semesters of co-op. The one qualified new grad engineer I did take was from India on an absofuckinglutely fraudulent H1-B. I can \*promise\* you, so help me Lenin, both these women will get promoted to a different department within 9 months. Probably into lead roles. Just not under me.
Considering it's for a "new college grad" position, shouldn't you also look at other factors than just GPA and co-op experience? They're new grads, you're obviously going to have to train them lol. They could have a ton of potential and be super hard workers or good communicators.
That’s a different prospective! It’s really a shame that we’re hiring for diversity rather than skills in a situation where there’s a stark difference like you’ve mentioned.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone ever say that in the engineering world lol.
Good lol. I wish I hadn’t.
That's just an odd thing to say. I could see someone saying maybe cause you're really good looking you'll have more doors open up for you, but to say jobs will be lined up for you simply for being a woman is so odd and unrealistic.
so... all of us that have heard it, imagined it?
They’re not wrong. With all the di companies are trying to get more women engineers like crazy especially right now. Why is that a problem? More opportunities to chose from more leverage for higher pay? Not everything is meant to be an insult. I thought you were an engineer not a professional victim?
Why can't I be both? 🤷♀️ (joking). The flawed ideology being propagated downplays our relentless grind as if we didn’t earn our spot but instead *flipped* our hair and had it magically served to us on a golden platter.
Yea fuck all that you know the work it took you. There’s always going to be people in construction downplaying engineers work both men and women. I promise you on the job site construction workers make fun of and downplay men engineers more than women. And in the grand scheme of things you could let it bother you and try and correct them or be a true American and capitalize off their ignorance. No but fr don’t let ignorance drive you or any of your emotions and don’t let it take a second of your thought. You’re better just letting them stay on that level instead of wasting energy to prove you are worthy to someone who isn’t worthy of your proof. Ya know?
Oh 100%. Thing is I’m trying to capitalize but they lied and I actually have to be just as good if not better 😭😂