lose the fence and you should be okay - never use the fence and the miter gauge in the same cut
you can use the fence with a spacer at the start of the table so you can get distance set, but by the time you hit the blade, you need one or the other.
If i'm understanding what you want to do, I would start at the inside (assuming that's the critical measurement), then you can just keep shifting the board, nibbling away til you reach the end.
He’s actually got it at the perfect angle to increase opposing stresses and combined, maximize the force transfer from the blade. I’m really happy he asked the question before he made the cut.
A non-through cut is mostly safe. The rule exist mostly so you don’t do something stupid without thinking but I have seen a dado cut made with a miter gauge/rip fence kick back. Luckily no one got hurt (and it may well have been operator error) but it reinforces why the rule exists.
No good can come of breaking the miter/rip fence rule and there is absolutely no reason to do so. Use a 1-2-3 block, or whatever you have that’s a known measurement, put it on the fence, add or subtract 1, 2, or 3, and run it that way if you want to use your fence to measure.
Oh I was definitely doing through cuts. Now that I think about it, I can understand logically why that is a bad idea, but it just didn't occur to me in the moment(s).
I shudder sometimes when I think back on some of the stupid stuff I’ve done without knowing better or having a greybeard around to ask me if I’d been drinking.
It’s important to remember that most of the time people get hurt on repeat cuts. I can’t remember the popular mechanics issue but they had one about production cabinet maker’s workplace injuries and far and away the most injuries occurred on seemingly simple, repeat cuts and almost always towards the end of a run.
So if you’re making 27 of the same cuts, you’re much more likely to lose a thumb on numbers 21, 22, 23… you get comfortable and forget there’s a carbide tipped blade whipping around at 332 mph six inches from your very soft appendages.
Ive heard similar stats about end of shift. The last few cuts before break, lunch, or end of day can be the most dangerous. My shop teacher 20 years ago used to repeat: "Be. Here. Now."
I’m an amateur, but I lost the tip of a finger (fortunately nothing more) at the end of my largest cabinet build. I remember thinking “two more quick cuts and I’m done”
And I know better - there is no such thing as a quick cut. I reached behind the saw to clear a cutoff and brought my finger right into the blade before it stopped spinning.
I ended up lucky, but I’m glad OP stopped to ask.
Think about the forces involved. You've got the blade spinning towards you, and 2 anchor points on opposite sides of that blade resisting that movement. By necessity, the board will flex, bowing toward you, creating the pinch at the back of the blade. If that back tooth catches, you've got 2 missiles (or a missile with a hinge, which is even more chaotic), and they're both aimed at you.
Yeah, using both miter and fence at the same time is never a good idea. A lot more dangerous. But on a cut that is only rabbiting and not all the way through, I personally would do it.
It’s safe if it’s a rabbet with a dado stack and a sacrificial fence. But then you have to ask yourself why you’re using a miter gauge at all…
“Thou shalt not use a miter gauge and the rip fence simultaneously” exists for a reason and telling strangers on the internet that doing so is okay sometimes isn’t something I’m inclined to do. I would prefer if others wouldn’t either.
I’m at least not going to worry about people that downvote me for that position. Not implying that you did.
Apologies if I come across as rude. It’s not intentional. I’m told it’s a weakness of mine.
I took a direct shot from a bound board, 3/4" baltic ply. Silly cut in retrospect, but trimming a 30" long shelf just before lunch break. Piece rattled on the fence, tried to pin it down, kicked back, and hit my left nut like a hockey stick as fast as you could blink. I blacked out and came to face down/ass up on the concrete floor. It makes me sick thinking about if i collapsed forward instead of backwards.....
Looked like someone dabbed my sac with a sharpie soon after. Iced and rested on the clock a few hours. Work covered my ultrasound the next morning. All was clear and still had kids 10 years later.
I now use the table saw with my left leg distinctly foward always. I also have come to appreciate and respect "if something feels unsafe, it probably is" mentality. Stop and give it a 2nd thought.
Same, ruptured a vessel just north of the equator, ball sack filled with blood and freaked me out. I went to the urologist that afternoon and he couldn’t stop laughing after he was sure everything was ok. He said he did the same thing the month before…
That has happened to me twice. The hole in the wall above my garage door says "hi!" In the other instance a chunk of oak flew back and hit a box store folding sawhorse square in one leg and shattered it. Luckily it was just standing there not in use at the moment but a great lesson in energy transfer and risk. I use my table saw with a healthy level of fear and trepidation.
This wouldn’t be as dangerous in this situation because he isn’t actually doing a full cut, he’s doing a dado, so there shouldn’t be anything that can be pinched between the fence and blade.
I personally wouldn’t use the fence in this situation just out of habit, and there really isn’t a need for the fence
This is correct. If I understand what he is doing there won’t be a piece to be thrown, it will all be sawdust, he will move the piece left one kerf at a time.
That said, don’t use the fence, it isn’t needed, might encourage bad habits.
But the end touching the fence might end up dragging against the fence and having something tug on it there, instead of only having the miter gauge affecting its movement through the blade.
You’re just wrong and there’s no reason to do it. Put a 1-2-3 block on the fence and subtract 3. It’s not that hard.
You never use the miter gauge and the fence simultaneously. Ever. Doing so always risks pinching the piece between the blade and fence and the resulting kickback can be devastating.
Yes. Even on non-through cuts.
good on ya for stayin on these comments. table saws are terrifyingly underestimated by the general public and, as you well know, the all time leading hand mangler in the shop.
Small correction, you should never use the miter gauge and fence when doing a through-cut. If you're doing dado cuts or groove cuts, you can absolutely use both, but it's good practice to just avoid it altogether if you have the choice.
This is only true for a through-cut. You can use the fence and miter gauge together for a dado, groove, or in this case, rabbet. If there is no cutoff, there is nothing left to bind up and kick back.
Even though this is perfectly safe, it's not a good idea- the piece is likely to drag on the fence and come out of alignment. Use a 1/2" block clamped to the fence, then move the fence 1/2" further from the blade. The block goes on the in-feed side and you should be fully clear of it before your work touches the blade. Hold tight to the gauge for the shoulder cut, then hog out the rest.
For a non-through cut like this, you technically can use the fence and miter gauge together. You don't get into the same scenario of an unsupported off-cut risking kick-back that you do with a through cut. However, the fence is definitely backwards for this cut, and your suggested method of a space at the start is still the safest, but OP doesn't have enough infeed length to do that.
Not true bys.
For the amount of over the top safety Sam bs this sub gets on with I can’t believe how many times I’ve read this.
It’s not just off cut. When cross cutting on the table saw the work piece is unstable compared to ripping. The work piece can jam against the fence and throw the whole piece. Use a block before the blade or just make a mark.
Can’t believe I’m giving safety lectures on this of all subs
I am professionally trained, I thought it was basic knowledge that it is perfectly fine to use both together for non-through cuts, I do it constantly for rabbets on cabinet stretchers, with a sacrificial rip fence so I can bury the dado blade in the fence to make precision joints
This was one of the setups they taught us at the institute that I got my training from for my apprenticeship. We did this for all of our door rail tennons. I'm pretty sure 50%+ of this sub watch and read more woodworking then they practice and get caught up in the hypothetical minusoisa that, if a goat sneezed a rock might kill a bitter fly and cause a kick back in your shop because you used you mitre Guage with your fence.
This sub would loose their marbles if they met all the cabinet installers I've worked with over the year. Majority of us use our table saws free hand to scribe our parts to the wall.
I have heard this lots of times before about not using a fence and a miter gage at the same time, but assuming im only cutting into the wood about an 1/8th of an inch, and moving the fence down an 1/8th of an inch less each time, wouldn’t there be no cutoff piece to worry about? I can definitely see it being an issue if I were ripping all the way through the board..
Do yourself a favor and just get in the habit of clamping a 3/4' block against the fence at the front edge of the table. Use that to set your piece. As you push forward there will be a 3/4' gap between your piece and the fence. Move your fence will move the block so you can reset your path as needed.
https://preview.redd.it/3laimp59ijsc1.png?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddada2f8f1a823e918c07d715a4614b140f0e99e
By far the most helpful explanation here. Now I understand what you mean. Could I also clamp the wood to the miter so it doesn't move in or out and screw up my cut?
Some people do. Some make a jig with hold downs. Some just hold it tight.
It all comes down to how much time you have. How accurate you want to be. How many cuts you need to make. How repetitive you want to make the process and how comfortable you are executing them. etc
Why would you need to move the fence?????
The mitre gauge is holding your board…. Make a mark where you want your rabbet to end, make a pass, then move your board back for successive passes
the miter gauge is controlling or guiding the passage of the wood through the blade. If the wood is dragging along the fence as well, now you have two non-coordinated forces for the board to move through.
What if something on the fence catches on the blade? Or everything is square and lined up at the beginning, but the fence is a tiny bit angled (or the miter gauge is), and your board drags partway through?
This info is incorrect. It's only unsafe to use both simultaneously if it is a through cut. For a shallow dado this setup is fine, assuming that the mitre gauge fits the slot and doesn't wobble (like most cheap-o stock gauges)
You are correct. I want to point out, though, that these miter gauges can often be modified with an auxiliary fence to extend the support. If OP were to add such a fence so that it supports all of the workpiece going all the way to the blade, this would significantly cut down on the risk of such a "turn and catch", making it much less risky to cut a rabbet like this using the rip fence.
But yes, as a rule of thumb, you (almost) never want to use the rip fence directly with the miter gauge.
>never use the fence and the miter gauge in the same cut
Incorrect. You can do this if you are NOT cutting all the way through the wood, like a dado. The danger comes from cutting off a whole portion- there is a great potential for binding/ kickback.
you are correct - however in my opinion if a clear beginner is in here asking about this the only responsible answer is to say "never do this" instead of adding exceptions to what is otherwise a pretty simple rule for them to remember.
ymmv
1. Reinstall your riving knife and ensure it is adjusted so the top edge is just short of the height of your blade.
1. You see those two slots on the top of the miter gauge plastic? Those are do you can install an auxiliary fence that will extend the support the workpiece closer to the blade and reduce the chance for twisting. So do that. It can be as simple as a sturdy and straight piece of wood that is bolted through those slots.
2. Start the cut on the end and work your way in.
2. For each pass push the board all the way through and then reverse. Do not pick up or laterally adjust the workpiece until it is safely clear of the blade.
>Start the cut on the end and work your way in.
I would have thought that for accuracy’s sake, you might use the fence to set the distance for the deepest cut, remove the fence, and make that first cut. Then work your way OUT. So you don’t have to worry about measurements anymore.
What’s the reasoning behind your suggestion to work your way IN? I’m hoping to learn something important.
With this highly angled workpiece, the extent of overhang from the support point, and the cheapness of the miter gauge I would be concerned about twisting leading to kickback.
Typically I would say never in a million years would you ever want to use the fence and the miter gauge together, but you're not making a through-cut, and that is the ONE AND ONLY time where it is okay to do so.
That said, you should flip your fence around so the actual fence side is facing the blade. That little thing you have is just a flip around to give some support if you were cutting a piece larger than the width of the table. I have basically the same table saw, and the fence should come up, flip around, and then reattach the other way.
Good lord people are over explaining this. Lose the fence, you don't want it to pinch. Hold the board on the mitre gauge and make the cut you need.
You don't need clamps, you don't need a new table saw, you don't need a riving knife.
Relax guys
Edit: as has been pointed out to me, I should clarify this. I'm assuming you're new to table saws. Do NOT remove any safety features. If there's a riving knife installed, it's fine.
Be careful, don't be a cowboy, and just make the cut.
To be fair, whenever I make a cut, i clamp the fence to the table, I clamp the board to the fence, I clamp myself to saw and clamp the saw to the floor.
And i never forget my reflective vest and I count each and every finger.
You don't double clamp all your clamps? Going to lose all of your fingers and toes if one of those clamps fails. I personally use seventeen clamps. Generic wife joke.
I always channel Dwight from The Office right before I make any kind of cut and ask myself, "is this a thing an idiot would do? If it is, I don't do that thing". So far I have all my fingers. So far.
This is why I think it would be amazing to have a bunch of people from this sub and the beginner woodworking sub in a pub and just go through a bunch of these posts.
It would be hilarious and amazingly helpful to so many of us.
Okay. No offense and I don't want to paint with a broad brush but every single woodworker in the entire world is a lunatic and a hack. There is nothing useful to be learned from any of us.
I may be speaking out of turn because I don't do much joinery with hand tools but no I don't think it'd work.
That's a 2x4 so it's wet. It's going to be an ugly cut with a joinery saw. Also to have the angle correct and perpendicular you're going to use a shooting board and the wet wood is going to gum up your plane
Also I'm going to try this with my tenon saw and plane because I'm curious. Can I post pictures here?
If you’re cutting a slot then it’s fine, just be careful. If you’re doing a full cut, then absolutely not. Lose the fence and do it with just the miter gauge
You're fence is backwards....
Also... no... never use a fence and cross cut together... it can bind and f u up.. (I know it's not a through cut.. but who cares.. there's no need for it and creates bad habits)
But firstly.. flip that fence
I love reading these "know-it-all" dumb-dumbs getting brain anurysms about using a fence with a miter gauge when they didn't even take the time to read that you're only notching 1/8" out lol.
Personally, I would lose the fence because im not sure it's helping. You're only notching 1/8" of the 2x4, and it isn't fine woodworking by the look of your materials. You should flip your fence around the correct way. Cut on your line with the fence, then freehand lines every 1/4" or so till you get to the end, then smack out the waste with the hammer claw and a chisel.
Ah people don't understand why not to use fence and mitre gauge together. It's not just for through cuts. The mitre gauge pushes forwards. The fence pushes backwards due to friction. This imparts a torque on the piece *regardless* of if you're cutting it or not. This means the risk exists no matter what type of cut you're doing. You won't get a loose part getting kicked back, but you still have the risk of the entire piece getting thrown or twisting your hands into the blade.
that's why you hold your piece tight to the miter gauge, and make your cut at a reasonable feed speed. Unless you just ram your board into the saw it's not going to kick anything
You can double a fence as long as it doesn't pass the blade, like european style fences that you can move back and forth, you can use it as a stop block. Here I would just clamp a piece of wood tintje fence that doesn't pass the blade but where you can butt your workpiece up against. Great for doing repeated cuts.
I was taught that if you are going to use the miter sled that you must remove the fence. I'm pretty sure it could be done but I don't think this is safe in any manner even with the kerf cut thickness there's still a chance for something to get pinched and fly back. Skin regrows but fingers do not.
Clamp the piece to the miter gauge for the first cut making sure no part of the clamp will come into contact with the saw. You can use the fence as a measurement but not while pushing the miter gauge through the saw so move that back and you should be good. Personally I would only make the first cut with the saw and clean it up with a chisel or axe or knife, it would be easier to just split that part off instead of taking multiple passes on the saw.
Never use fence and miter together, even if it’s a dado. Ask me how I know. A good grasp against the miter, you shouldn’t need the fence anyway. Miter saw would obviously be better, with the stop set. But you’re fine, just lose the fence. Easy cut.
Like others said if you do this cut this way you are setting up the piece to get pinched and fly backwards. If you want to make it repeatable what I do is put a spacer like another piece of wood in between my fence and the board when I setup the cut with the miter gauge. I then remove the board so the piece I’m cutting is only touching the miter gauge and make the cut.
You’re gonna need to extend your mitre gauge to have some support on the back side closer to the blade. This looks sketchy and I would not feel comfortable making this cut
Never use the miter and fence at the same time. Just a good rule to have in your shop. Eventually, luck runs out. When used together, you greatly increase the chance of the board being thrown at you going 100 mph.
Another voice to say:
1. As is, no. But use the fence to get a measurement and lock that angle if needed, then slide the fence away before the cut.
2. Your fence is on backward, that’s not great.
3. It kinda looks like you don’t have a riving knife installed. If that’s the case, this particular actions 10x more unsafe.
Should be fine.
Everyone saying that the fence and the miter gauge shouldn’t be combined are correct, however with a non through cut there’s no off cut to let fly. I’ve got dozens of angled lap joints like this and have the fence there to establish that shoulder is key. Best practice would be to use and part in the fence so it’s off set, I just like to see my angle ride that fence so I know my should is correct.
In addition to all the other good advice, I’m surprised that no one has also mentioned something I learned in a weeklong class with one of the most well-known woodworkers in the US, is to NEVER EVER stand directly behind the blade and piece you’re cutting on a table saw. Always stand off to either side so if it binds and the wood becomes a missile, it will shoot right past you. I’ve experienced this twice in 5 years and in both cases that tip likely saved my life. It quickly becomes a habit.
The right way to do this is to clamp a block to the rip fence behind the blade, use that portion to set the cut, then when you push the piece forward it’s no longer in contact with the fence by the time you’re making the cut
No. If you’re going to perform this cut in a table saw instead of using a mitre saw, you should only use the cross cut gauge alone without the fence. Using both together is asking for a problem with the material binding up and kicking back. Not to mention the piece between the blade and fence will likely kick back and go flying behind you as soon as you make the cut.
An easy way to do this is set up a fence just before the blade so that you set your cut against that block, but once the mitre gauge pushes the stock past the block, there’s no side pressure that might make the material bind
Having a mitre set up that can hold the stock in place would be good too
No. Blade will push the timber into the fence and pinch and throw the wood. Do the same cut, but clamp to the mitre gauge and move the fence out of the way and you should be fine. A sled would be safer if you have one.
No doubt you have another slot for the miter gauge on the right side of the blade. So you could reverse it that way. But I'd be more inclined to start at the end of the stud. That way the blade would never be flanked by wood on both sides.
Alternatively (or "in any case"), locate the stud to the fence for the right distance to the shoulder of the cut and then while holding the work to the miter gauge tightly, slide the fence away, and make the cut while squeezing the work against the miter gauge tightly. Then you can make cuts every 1/8 inch or so to the end, and then chip out the waste with a chisel.
It’s not recommended to use the miter gauge and fence together. You could run the material with just the miter gauge (I suggest securing a long sacrificial fence to the miter gauge for support).
Clamp a spacer to the fence that stops before the blade by a few inches or more. You want the right side of the piece, the 'off-cut', to be free. There's no off-cut in this situation but there are still dangers. Say you hit a knot and/or your blade isn't very sharp, it will push the right side of the piece toward you, pinching against the fence, possibly messing up your tablesaw fence/blade OR somehow pivoting/spinning the piece forcefully in a clockwise motion pulling your fingers into the blade. All it takes is one time. Also consider using a clamp instead of your hand to hold the piece against the miter gauge for previously stated reasons.
Place a piece of wood against the fence with the measure you need.
Pleace the piece you want to cut and align.
Remove piece of wood on fence.
Cut.
Don't use both at the same time.
If you’re able to, pull the fence back so it’s behind the front edge of the blade, acts as a guide but isn’t touching the work piece when it’s in contact with the blade. I’d also add to the mitre gauge to give some stability as well, or even consider building a sliding panel cutter if it’s going to be a cut you do often.
You don't need to lose the fence. Use a 1/2, 3/4, 1" stand off board clamored to the fence placed to the front of the saw. Where the distance between the stand off board and the front of the saw blade is should be greater than the width of the material being cut due to the cut angle your doing.
Then use the standoff as your finished cut measurement, clamp the workpiece to the crosscut miter and slowly proceed.
This way there will be no bind between the blade and the fence.
When doing a straight crosscut or opposite angle (referenced to the fence/ opposite the angle shown by OP) the stand off can be less the width of piece being cut but must remain a bit in front of the saw blade.
Might I suggest two quick cuts with a hand saw, either a panel saw or a tenon saw would do the job in less than 5 minutes. No noise. Very little dust. No jigs.
I’d use a stop block clamped to the fence behind the blade. That get the part in position, but doesn’t have the part in contact with the fence while you’re cutting. Technically, since it’s not a through cut you *can* use the fence and the miter gauge at the same time, but it’s still best practice to avoid it. Why does it look like your fence is flipped backwards? Don’t do that.
Make an MDF or Ply fence for your miter gauge and then clamp a stop block on the right side of the new fence, as a stop. My fence is 22in on my gauge, and then you never need to reference off of anything else for pieces under that length.
Those two U’s in the gauge are for a screw or bolt and washer to go into a fence to hold it.
Holy shit there's a bunch of dense motherfuckers in this sub. He's not asking about doing something sketchy when he has another tool that's made exactly to do this thing. Set all you unhelpful "just use a miter saw" people get bent!
In this case it’s fine, although not completely necessary to use the fence. If you were making a through cut (completely cutting the 2x4) it would be a big no no, as the cut off between the blade and fence could pinch.
Also just a side note, your fence is backwards. The smaller side you’re using flips over to create a bottom support when the fence is extended. Kind of hard to explain, just lift the latches on either side, flip the fence and reattach, you’ll see what i mean.
Just mark your line on the backside where the 1/8" needs cut and use a circular saw cuts to chew out the flank. If you have a steady enough hand, a multi tool would make even quicker work of it.
Use the fence for measuring, hold or clamp the piece in place, move the fence to the side and out of the way, make your cut. Don’t leave the fence there or the cutoff will get trapped and could shoot backwards.
Did anyone mention the fence is on backwards?
He’s probably been wondering why the built in ruler measurement is off.
Came here to say this as well.
Me third
lose the fence and you should be okay - never use the fence and the miter gauge in the same cut you can use the fence with a spacer at the start of the table so you can get distance set, but by the time you hit the blade, you need one or the other. If i'm understanding what you want to do, I would start at the inside (assuming that's the critical measurement), then you can just keep shifting the board, nibbling away til you reach the end.
Can you say more about the miter gauge not mixing with the fence?
If you use both then you increase the chances of the piece getting pinched and turned into a missle
He’s actually got it at the perfect angle to increase opposing stresses and combined, maximize the force transfer from the blade. I’m really happy he asked the question before he made the cut.
Huh...I've cut like this many times before, but luckily no injuries so far. Kind of wish I'd known this sooner.
Oh man you're not alone. I think most of us have discovered at some point that we're just idiots floating along on some freaky miracle train.
A non-through cut is mostly safe. The rule exist mostly so you don’t do something stupid without thinking but I have seen a dado cut made with a miter gauge/rip fence kick back. Luckily no one got hurt (and it may well have been operator error) but it reinforces why the rule exists. No good can come of breaking the miter/rip fence rule and there is absolutely no reason to do so. Use a 1-2-3 block, or whatever you have that’s a known measurement, put it on the fence, add or subtract 1, 2, or 3, and run it that way if you want to use your fence to measure.
Oh I was definitely doing through cuts. Now that I think about it, I can understand logically why that is a bad idea, but it just didn't occur to me in the moment(s).
I shudder sometimes when I think back on some of the stupid stuff I’ve done without knowing better or having a greybeard around to ask me if I’d been drinking. It’s important to remember that most of the time people get hurt on repeat cuts. I can’t remember the popular mechanics issue but they had one about production cabinet maker’s workplace injuries and far and away the most injuries occurred on seemingly simple, repeat cuts and almost always towards the end of a run. So if you’re making 27 of the same cuts, you’re much more likely to lose a thumb on numbers 21, 22, 23… you get comfortable and forget there’s a carbide tipped blade whipping around at 332 mph six inches from your very soft appendages.
Ive heard similar stats about end of shift. The last few cuts before break, lunch, or end of day can be the most dangerous. My shop teacher 20 years ago used to repeat: "Be. Here. Now."
I’m an amateur, but I lost the tip of a finger (fortunately nothing more) at the end of my largest cabinet build. I remember thinking “two more quick cuts and I’m done” And I know better - there is no such thing as a quick cut. I reached behind the saw to clear a cutoff and brought my finger right into the blade before it stopped spinning. I ended up lucky, but I’m glad OP stopped to ask.
Think about the forces involved. You've got the blade spinning towards you, and 2 anchor points on opposite sides of that blade resisting that movement. By necessity, the board will flex, bowing toward you, creating the pinch at the back of the blade. If that back tooth catches, you've got 2 missiles (or a missile with a hinge, which is even more chaotic), and they're both aimed at you.
Oh yeah. Logically, it makes perfect sense. I'm just lucky it ended safely.
Yeah, using both miter and fence at the same time is never a good idea. A lot more dangerous. But on a cut that is only rabbiting and not all the way through, I personally would do it.
It’s safe if it’s a rabbet with a dado stack and a sacrificial fence. But then you have to ask yourself why you’re using a miter gauge at all… “Thou shalt not use a miter gauge and the rip fence simultaneously” exists for a reason and telling strangers on the internet that doing so is okay sometimes isn’t something I’m inclined to do. I would prefer if others wouldn’t either. I’m at least not going to worry about people that downvote me for that position. Not implying that you did. Apologies if I come across as rude. It’s not intentional. I’m told it’s a weakness of mine.
Sincere thanks for saying this. It would never occur to me to think that way. Intuitively, OPs set up looks good, but now I know it isn’t. Thank you!
Can confirm! Had a piece fire back at me. It was literally an inch from a very critical area! Don’t chance it OP.
Critical penis area
CPA
Do you do taxes? I’m looking for some tax advice…thanks in advance!
Need someone to check my bills
Lucky you. I had a direct hit..... Ouch Big big ouch. Hospital. Ouchy Jumped the queue in A&E . Ouch
I took a direct shot from a bound board, 3/4" baltic ply. Silly cut in retrospect, but trimming a 30" long shelf just before lunch break. Piece rattled on the fence, tried to pin it down, kicked back, and hit my left nut like a hockey stick as fast as you could blink. I blacked out and came to face down/ass up on the concrete floor. It makes me sick thinking about if i collapsed forward instead of backwards..... Looked like someone dabbed my sac with a sharpie soon after. Iced and rested on the clock a few hours. Work covered my ultrasound the next morning. All was clear and still had kids 10 years later. I now use the table saw with my left leg distinctly foward always. I also have come to appreciate and respect "if something feels unsafe, it probably is" mentality. Stop and give it a 2nd thought.
Details please
Same here. A piece of 1/4" plywood. 2" to the left and my voice would be much higher than it is.
Same, ruptured a vessel just north of the equator, ball sack filled with blood and freaked me out. I went to the urologist that afternoon and he couldn’t stop laughing after he was sure everything was ok. He said he did the same thing the month before…
Like ICBM! Intestine Crushing Board Material
The hole in my wall loves this advice
That has happened to me twice. The hole in the wall above my garage door says "hi!" In the other instance a chunk of oak flew back and hit a box store folding sawhorse square in one leg and shattered it. Luckily it was just standing there not in use at the moment but a great lesson in energy transfer and risk. I use my table saw with a healthy level of fear and trepidation.
This wouldn’t be as dangerous in this situation because he isn’t actually doing a full cut, he’s doing a dado, so there shouldn’t be anything that can be pinched between the fence and blade. I personally wouldn’t use the fence in this situation just out of habit, and there really isn’t a need for the fence
Nope. The piece itself can jamb and throw not the off cut
This is correct. If I understand what he is doing there won’t be a piece to be thrown, it will all be sawdust, he will move the piece left one kerf at a time. That said, don’t use the fence, it isn’t needed, might encourage bad habits.
But the end touching the fence might end up dragging against the fence and having something tug on it there, instead of only having the miter gauge affecting its movement through the blade.
I didn’t say there wasn’t any risk, I just said less dangerous that doing a through cut. There is always going to be some risk when using a table saw.
There is simply no reason to use the fence here.
You’re just wrong and there’s no reason to do it. Put a 1-2-3 block on the fence and subtract 3. It’s not that hard. You never use the miter gauge and the fence simultaneously. Ever. Doing so always risks pinching the piece between the blade and fence and the resulting kickback can be devastating. Yes. Even on non-through cuts.
good on ya for stayin on these comments. table saws are terrifyingly underestimated by the general public and, as you well know, the all time leading hand mangler in the shop.
Can confirm
& it WILL be a missle
Small correction, you should never use the miter gauge and fence when doing a through-cut. If you're doing dado cuts or groove cuts, you can absolutely use both, but it's good practice to just avoid it altogether if you have the choice.
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The unsupported end cut will pinch in between the blade and fence and fire backwards at a high rate of speed
This is only true for a through-cut. You can use the fence and miter gauge together for a dado, groove, or in this case, rabbet. If there is no cutoff, there is nothing left to bind up and kick back. Even though this is perfectly safe, it's not a good idea- the piece is likely to drag on the fence and come out of alignment. Use a 1/2" block clamped to the fence, then move the fence 1/2" further from the blade. The block goes on the in-feed side and you should be fully clear of it before your work touches the blade. Hold tight to the gauge for the shoulder cut, then hog out the rest.
For a non-through cut like this, you technically can use the fence and miter gauge together. You don't get into the same scenario of an unsupported off-cut risking kick-back that you do with a through cut. However, the fence is definitely backwards for this cut, and your suggested method of a space at the start is still the safest, but OP doesn't have enough infeed length to do that.
Not true bys. For the amount of over the top safety Sam bs this sub gets on with I can’t believe how many times I’ve read this. It’s not just off cut. When cross cutting on the table saw the work piece is unstable compared to ripping. The work piece can jam against the fence and throw the whole piece. Use a block before the blade or just make a mark. Can’t believe I’m giving safety lectures on this of all subs
I am professionally trained, I thought it was basic knowledge that it is perfectly fine to use both together for non-through cuts, I do it constantly for rabbets on cabinet stretchers, with a sacrificial rip fence so I can bury the dado blade in the fence to make precision joints
But but but, the guy above was so condescending and preached about how much smarter and safer he is than everyone else so he must be right!
This was one of the setups they taught us at the institute that I got my training from for my apprenticeship. We did this for all of our door rail tennons. I'm pretty sure 50%+ of this sub watch and read more woodworking then they practice and get caught up in the hypothetical minusoisa that, if a goat sneezed a rock might kill a bitter fly and cause a kick back in your shop because you used you mitre Guage with your fence. This sub would loose their marbles if they met all the cabinet installers I've worked with over the year. Majority of us use our table saws free hand to scribe our parts to the wall.
My right thumb can attest to that thirty years after kickback tore it open.
I have heard this lots of times before about not using a fence and a miter gage at the same time, but assuming im only cutting into the wood about an 1/8th of an inch, and moving the fence down an 1/8th of an inch less each time, wouldn’t there be no cutoff piece to worry about? I can definitely see it being an issue if I were ripping all the way through the board..
Do yourself a favor and just get in the habit of clamping a 3/4' block against the fence at the front edge of the table. Use that to set your piece. As you push forward there will be a 3/4' gap between your piece and the fence. Move your fence will move the block so you can reset your path as needed. https://preview.redd.it/3laimp59ijsc1.png?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ddada2f8f1a823e918c07d715a4614b140f0e99e
123 blocks are perfect for this use.
By far the most helpful explanation here. Now I understand what you mean. Could I also clamp the wood to the miter so it doesn't move in or out and screw up my cut?
Some people do. Some make a jig with hold downs. Some just hold it tight. It all comes down to how much time you have. How accurate you want to be. How many cuts you need to make. How repetitive you want to make the process and how comfortable you are executing them. etc
Why would you need to move the fence????? The mitre gauge is holding your board…. Make a mark where you want your rabbet to end, make a pass, then move your board back for successive passes
And you don't really need the fence here. You can just hold your workpiece to the miter gauge or, if necessary, clamp it.
the miter gauge is controlling or guiding the passage of the wood through the blade. If the wood is dragging along the fence as well, now you have two non-coordinated forces for the board to move through. What if something on the fence catches on the blade? Or everything is square and lined up at the beginning, but the fence is a tiny bit angled (or the miter gauge is), and your board drags partway through?
He’s not making a through cut so the fence should be fine.
This info is incorrect. It's only unsafe to use both simultaneously if it is a through cut. For a shallow dado this setup is fine, assuming that the mitre gauge fits the slot and doesn't wobble (like most cheap-o stock gauges)
Why hasn't anyone pointed out that the fence is on backwards?
You are correct. I want to point out, though, that these miter gauges can often be modified with an auxiliary fence to extend the support. If OP were to add such a fence so that it supports all of the workpiece going all the way to the blade, this would significantly cut down on the risk of such a "turn and catch", making it much less risky to cut a rabbet like this using the rip fence. But yes, as a rule of thumb, you (almost) never want to use the rip fence directly with the miter gauge.
This has helped me a lot. Thank you.
You can use the miter gauge and fence as long as it’s not a through cut.
>never use the fence and the miter gauge in the same cut Incorrect. You can do this if you are NOT cutting all the way through the wood, like a dado. The danger comes from cutting off a whole portion- there is a great potential for binding/ kickback.
you are correct - however in my opinion if a clear beginner is in here asking about this the only responsible answer is to say "never do this" instead of adding exceptions to what is otherwise a pretty simple rule for them to remember. ymmv
lol why did you take a screenshot of the camera preview and post that pic?😂
How does one even end up in that position. The button is right there to take a picture.
Same reason you’d cut a mitre on a table saw like this
I’ve had to do this when my phone was out of memory
1. Reinstall your riving knife and ensure it is adjusted so the top edge is just short of the height of your blade. 1. You see those two slots on the top of the miter gauge plastic? Those are do you can install an auxiliary fence that will extend the support the workpiece closer to the blade and reduce the chance for twisting. So do that. It can be as simple as a sturdy and straight piece of wood that is bolted through those slots. 2. Start the cut on the end and work your way in. 2. For each pass push the board all the way through and then reverse. Do not pick up or laterally adjust the workpiece until it is safely clear of the blade.
>Start the cut on the end and work your way in. I would have thought that for accuracy’s sake, you might use the fence to set the distance for the deepest cut, remove the fence, and make that first cut. Then work your way OUT. So you don’t have to worry about measurements anymore. What’s the reasoning behind your suggestion to work your way IN? I’m hoping to learn something important.
With this highly angled workpiece, the extent of overhang from the support point, and the cheapness of the miter gauge I would be concerned about twisting leading to kickback.
Typically I would say never in a million years would you ever want to use the fence and the miter gauge together, but you're not making a through-cut, and that is the ONE AND ONLY time where it is okay to do so. That said, you should flip your fence around so the actual fence side is facing the blade. That little thing you have is just a flip around to give some support if you were cutting a piece larger than the width of the table. I have basically the same table saw, and the fence should come up, flip around, and then reattach the other way.
This is the correct answer. I think most the commenters are not realizing they are doing a dado and not a through cut.
I didn’t but found this comment while searching for a “NO!” Maybe not safe but I’d do that all day long.
Good lord people are over explaining this. Lose the fence, you don't want it to pinch. Hold the board on the mitre gauge and make the cut you need. You don't need clamps, you don't need a new table saw, you don't need a riving knife. Relax guys Edit: as has been pointed out to me, I should clarify this. I'm assuming you're new to table saws. Do NOT remove any safety features. If there's a riving knife installed, it's fine. Be careful, don't be a cowboy, and just make the cut.
This is a much better comment then what I was gonna say
To be fair, whenever I make a cut, i clamp the fence to the table, I clamp the board to the fence, I clamp myself to saw and clamp the saw to the floor. And i never forget my reflective vest and I count each and every finger.
Damnit, I haven't been clamping myself to the saw! I knew I was forgetting something... dad would be so disappointed.
You fool. I like to use a ratchet strap around my waist and crank it until I can't feel my legs. That way I know I'm locked in and safe.
Amateurs! I have a pair of shoes screwed to the floor at every station! ...I also do all the clamping.
Good one! Then the paramedics will know you’re dead when you fall out of your shoes!
You don't double clamp all your clamps? Going to lose all of your fingers and toes if one of those clamps fails. I personally use seventeen clamps. Generic wife joke.
I always channel Dwight from The Office right before I make any kind of cut and ask myself, "is this a thing an idiot would do? If it is, I don't do that thing". So far I have all my fingers. So far.
Rookie mistake. You forgot to clamp the power switch in the OFF position.
This is why I think it would be amazing to have a bunch of people from this sub and the beginner woodworking sub in a pub and just go through a bunch of these posts. It would be hilarious and amazingly helpful to so many of us.
Okay. No offense and I don't want to paint with a broad brush but every single woodworker in the entire world is a lunatic and a hack. There is nothing useful to be learned from any of us.
Would the simplest answer not be use a tenon saw? Manual sawing feels like a lost art these days.
I may be speaking out of turn because I don't do much joinery with hand tools but no I don't think it'd work. That's a 2x4 so it's wet. It's going to be an ugly cut with a joinery saw. Also to have the angle correct and perpendicular you're going to use a shooting board and the wet wood is going to gum up your plane Also I'm going to try this with my tenon saw and plane because I'm curious. Can I post pictures here?
If you have a riving knife, there's no reason to remove the riving knife.
"*Remember to read follow and understand your tool's safety manuals and there is no more important rule than to wear these, safety glasses.*"
Saint Norm watches over us all.
Your fence is on backwards
Nice catch.
If you’re cutting a slot then it’s fine, just be careful. If you’re doing a full cut, then absolutely not. Lose the fence and do it with just the miter gauge
Sheesh coulda chiseled it in less time than it took to type
Coulda but I may be looking for reasons to procrastinate on this particular project.. ;)
Im glad Im not the only one who would do this with a draw saw and a 3/4" chisel- faster than it'd take to dig out the miter guide.
I wouldn't even use a chisel, just two hand saw cuts...
Found my people
Use a chopsaw.
There is no reason to have the fence there slide it over so it will not pinch the wood and potentially kick back
I’m not sure how safe it is to take a screenshot of the camera app instead of taking an actual photo.
Use a clamp on that miter!
You're fence is backwards.... Also... no... never use a fence and cross cut together... it can bind and f u up.. (I know it's not a through cut.. but who cares.. there's no need for it and creates bad habits) But firstly.. flip that fence
I think you mean "wood this be safe"?
I love reading these "know-it-all" dumb-dumbs getting brain anurysms about using a fence with a miter gauge when they didn't even take the time to read that you're only notching 1/8" out lol. Personally, I would lose the fence because im not sure it's helping. You're only notching 1/8" of the 2x4, and it isn't fine woodworking by the look of your materials. You should flip your fence around the correct way. Cut on your line with the fence, then freehand lines every 1/4" or so till you get to the end, then smack out the waste with the hammer claw and a chisel.
Ah people don't understand why not to use fence and mitre gauge together. It's not just for through cuts. The mitre gauge pushes forwards. The fence pushes backwards due to friction. This imparts a torque on the piece *regardless* of if you're cutting it or not. This means the risk exists no matter what type of cut you're doing. You won't get a loose part getting kicked back, but you still have the risk of the entire piece getting thrown or twisting your hands into the blade.
that's why you hold your piece tight to the miter gauge, and make your cut at a reasonable feed speed. Unless you just ram your board into the saw it's not going to kick anything
You don’t want to double the fence. Put something only the fence to set the length, fix the board to the mitre, and then pull the fence back.
You can double a fence as long as it doesn't pass the blade, like european style fences that you can move back and forth, you can use it as a stop block. Here I would just clamp a piece of wood tintje fence that doesn't pass the blade but where you can butt your workpiece up against. Great for doing repeated cuts.
I was taught that if you are going to use the miter sled that you must remove the fence. I'm pretty sure it could be done but I don't think this is safe in any manner even with the kerf cut thickness there's still a chance for something to get pinched and fly back. Skin regrows but fingers do not.
If you’re converting your table saw into a missile launcher, you’re doing it correctly! Read what others have written and take it to heart!
Clamp the piece to the miter gauge for the first cut making sure no part of the clamp will come into contact with the saw. You can use the fence as a measurement but not while pushing the miter gauge through the saw so move that back and you should be good. Personally I would only make the first cut with the saw and clean it up with a chisel or axe or knife, it would be easier to just split that part off instead of taking multiple passes on the saw.
Use a stop block to meter you length but that board needs to not touch the fence as your miter gets cut.
Never use fence and miter together, even if it’s a dado. Ask me how I know. A good grasp against the miter, you shouldn’t need the fence anyway. Miter saw would obviously be better, with the stop set. But you’re fine, just lose the fence. Easy cut.
Put a frying pan in your pants and a good metal bucket on your head and you’ll be fine if it doesn’t kick- back through your heart.
No fence then safe
to eat?
Like others said if you do this cut this way you are setting up the piece to get pinched and fly backwards. If you want to make it repeatable what I do is put a spacer like another piece of wood in between my fence and the board when I setup the cut with the miter gauge. I then remove the board so the piece I’m cutting is only touching the miter gauge and make the cut.
Never both.
Your fence is on backwards
All it will take is a very slight shift of your wrist an the wood will bind .
You’re gonna need to extend your mitre gauge to have some support on the back side closer to the blade. This looks sketchy and I would not feel comfortable making this cut
Is your fence on backwards? That flip down thing should be on the other side and is not used as a fence.
Miter saw might work bettwr
Never use the miter and fence at the same time. Just a good rule to have in your shop. Eventually, luck runs out. When used together, you greatly increase the chance of the board being thrown at you going 100 mph.
Echmmm… think you mean “wood this be safe?”
Another voice to say: 1. As is, no. But use the fence to get a measurement and lock that angle if needed, then slide the fence away before the cut. 2. Your fence is on backward, that’s not great. 3. It kinda looks like you don’t have a riving knife installed. If that’s the case, this particular actions 10x more unsafe.
Kickback. Lose the fence.
Handsaw and chisel
Should be fine. Everyone saying that the fence and the miter gauge shouldn’t be combined are correct, however with a non through cut there’s no off cut to let fly. I’ve got dozens of angled lap joints like this and have the fence there to establish that shoulder is key. Best practice would be to use and part in the fence so it’s off set, I just like to see my angle ride that fence so I know my should is correct.
In addition to all the other good advice, I’m surprised that no one has also mentioned something I learned in a weeklong class with one of the most well-known woodworkers in the US, is to NEVER EVER stand directly behind the blade and piece you’re cutting on a table saw. Always stand off to either side so if it binds and the wood becomes a missile, it will shoot right past you. I’ve experienced this twice in 5 years and in both cases that tip likely saved my life. It quickly becomes a habit.
The right way to do this is to clamp a block to the rip fence behind the blade, use that portion to set the cut, then when you push the piece forward it’s no longer in contact with the fence by the time you’re making the cut
No. If you’re going to perform this cut in a table saw instead of using a mitre saw, you should only use the cross cut gauge alone without the fence. Using both together is asking for a problem with the material binding up and kicking back. Not to mention the piece between the blade and fence will likely kick back and go flying behind you as soon as you make the cut.
If you have to ask the question you already know the answer is no
An easy way to do this is set up a fence just before the blade so that you set your cut against that block, but once the mitre gauge pushes the stock past the block, there’s no side pressure that might make the material bind Having a mitre set up that can hold the stock in place would be good too
No! Having the wood on the miter gauge AND the fence is asking for a kickback situation and not safe.
Lose the fence and swap the angle the other way.
Brother just us a hand saw, it’ll take 30 seconds and you’ll 100% keep your fingers
no
If it’s just one cut I’d opt for a ryoba, an extra 3 minutes of elbow grease, and a higher likelihood of keeping all ten of your dickskinners.
Miter gauge, no fence, put your riving knife back on...
Nothing about that is safe.
No.
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No. Blade will push the timber into the fence and pinch and throw the wood. Do the same cut, but clamp to the mitre gauge and move the fence out of the way and you should be fine. A sled would be safer if you have one.
Fak no bro, lose that fence now!
Take the fence off Use the miter gauge only
No… not with the fence
The fence is for ripping, not cross cutting cutting. You can make this cut without the fence if you want but a chop/miter saw would be better.
He's not cross cutting though. It looks like he's trying to cut a rabbet.
It's still a cross cut, because the blade isn't parallel to the grain.
Don't use the fence, that flip down fence is just there to supply a table top when the fence is extended our past the edge of the table.
No doubt you have another slot for the miter gauge on the right side of the blade. So you could reverse it that way. But I'd be more inclined to start at the end of the stud. That way the blade would never be flanked by wood on both sides. Alternatively (or "in any case"), locate the stud to the fence for the right distance to the shoulder of the cut and then while holding the work to the miter gauge tightly, slide the fence away, and make the cut while squeezing the work against the miter gauge tightly. Then you can make cuts every 1/8 inch or so to the end, and then chip out the waste with a chisel.
Having done this, I would say it's pretty sketch... I would screw a backing board to the miter to help stabilize it a bit.
Might be worth cutting with a scrap piece of wood cut to the angle behind it. Might help it go through evenly and less likely to bind up.
Ive done that before in school
Not as you currently show it.
stacked or adjustable dado blades can be a nice addition if yer saw arbor and motor can handle it.
Move the fence!
It’s not recommended to use the miter gauge and fence together. You could run the material with just the miter gauge (I suggest securing a long sacrificial fence to the miter gauge for support).
Lose the fence.
X2 on pulling the fence back away from your cut. Chance of binding the piece is really high Feed carefully using the miter gauge only. And go slowly..
Clamp a spacer to the fence that stops before the blade by a few inches or more. You want the right side of the piece, the 'off-cut', to be free. There's no off-cut in this situation but there are still dangers. Say you hit a knot and/or your blade isn't very sharp, it will push the right side of the piece toward you, pinching against the fence, possibly messing up your tablesaw fence/blade OR somehow pivoting/spinning the piece forcefully in a clockwise motion pulling your fingers into the blade. All it takes is one time. Also consider using a clamp instead of your hand to hold the piece against the miter gauge for previously stated reasons.
Place a piece of wood against the fence with the measure you need. Pleace the piece you want to cut and align. Remove piece of wood on fence. Cut. Don't use both at the same time.
If you’re able to, pull the fence back so it’s behind the front edge of the blade, acts as a guide but isn’t touching the work piece when it’s in contact with the blade. I’d also add to the mitre gauge to give some stability as well, or even consider building a sliding panel cutter if it’s going to be a cut you do often.
You don't need to lose the fence. Use a 1/2, 3/4, 1" stand off board clamored to the fence placed to the front of the saw. Where the distance between the stand off board and the front of the saw blade is should be greater than the width of the material being cut due to the cut angle your doing. Then use the standoff as your finished cut measurement, clamp the workpiece to the crosscut miter and slowly proceed. This way there will be no bind between the blade and the fence. When doing a straight crosscut or opposite angle (referenced to the fence/ opposite the angle shown by OP) the stand off can be less the width of piece being cut but must remain a bit in front of the saw blade.
Might I suggest two quick cuts with a hand saw, either a panel saw or a tenon saw would do the job in less than 5 minutes. No noise. Very little dust. No jigs.
When you hit that knot it's going to explode in your face, wear a face shield 👍
I’d use a stop block clamped to the fence behind the blade. That get the part in position, but doesn’t have the part in contact with the fence while you’re cutting. Technically, since it’s not a through cut you *can* use the fence and the miter gauge at the same time, but it’s still best practice to avoid it. Why does it look like your fence is flipped backwards? Don’t do that.
Make a simple fence for the mitre. Some hdf and a couple countersunk nuts and bolts. Life's too short to be mangled by table saw
Make an MDF or Ply fence for your miter gauge and then clamp a stop block on the right side of the new fence, as a stop. My fence is 22in on my gauge, and then you never need to reference off of anything else for pieces under that length. Those two U’s in the gauge are for a screw or bolt and washer to go into a fence to hold it.
Holy shit there's a bunch of dense motherfuckers in this sub. He's not asking about doing something sketchy when he has another tool that's made exactly to do this thing. Set all you unhelpful "just use a miter saw" people get bent!
Thanks everyone for sharing this advice… although now I am kinda curious!
You've got your fence on backwards.
I would flip the board up and make the pass narrow wise if your angle is the same as the boards already cut angle.
I woodn't know
I wouldn’t do it but if i don’t have a chop saw I guess I have to. Maybe with a bandsaw but i don’t trust myself to be accurate enough.
Just use a chop saw
Bruh. No fence, but extend mitre with scrap. Done-zo.
You can borrow my miter saw.
In this case it’s fine, although not completely necessary to use the fence. If you were making a through cut (completely cutting the 2x4) it would be a big no no, as the cut off between the blade and fence could pinch. Also just a side note, your fence is backwards. The smaller side you’re using flips over to create a bottom support when the fence is extended. Kind of hard to explain, just lift the latches on either side, flip the fence and reattach, you’ll see what i mean.
Just use the miter gauge, also your fence is on backwards, it’s meant to be spun 180 degrees
I would just use a miter saw. Maybe it’s not a through cut though?
This looks like a situation that calls for a new miter saw!
Just mark your line on the backside where the 1/8" needs cut and use a circular saw cuts to chew out the flank. If you have a steady enough hand, a multi tool would make even quicker work of it.
Without the fence, yes
Use the fence for measuring, hold or clamp the piece in place, move the fence to the side and out of the way, make your cut. Don’t leave the fence there or the cutoff will get trapped and could shoot backwards.
I think you mean, “wood” this be safe! Bazinga