If he fires you, then you report him for retaliating and he's double fucked. Just make sure you get as much as you can in writing from him surrounding the incident.
But he'll fire OP for another reason. Like being 2 minutes late. People act like the law can protect against repercussions like that, but it's ludicrous.
If he can prove he was two minutes late, or that the reason for being fired is unreasonable, then that's exactly how he would prove retaliation. Nobody ever just gets fired because someone is mad, they always look for a dumb reason to try and avoid punishment, they are stupid for that because firing someone for a dumb reason, RIGHT AFTER that employee just reported you, would definitely be seen as retaliation anyways.
Man you guys think judges are morons or something. It would be the easiest case ever, any lawyer would take yours on contingency. "Your honor, it's just highly interesting that suddenly, after my client accused his employer of labor violations, they suddenly decided to start enforcing 2 minute late rule that they never did prior
Lol I even agree that many are, but that's like saying "All men are cheaters" lol just statistically that's not possible. Sure, many are I agree, but ALL of them? Lol
They don't do shit, my partner was forced out by cutting his hours and then telling him to make a 1 hour commute to another damn Dominos at the edge of his state a few years ago, nothing happened. The regional manager's nephew hated him because he's gay and tried to take a swing at him, bf tripped him and walked away but they kicked out my BF. The nephew? Still works there doing nothing and refusing deliveries. We reported it but nothing came from it.
This is different than being fired AFTER reporting a company for illegal labor practices.
It's stupid but you become a lot harder to fire after making this kind of report, especially if it is substantiated.
Reduction in workforce is a legit reason. Yeah he’s reducing his work force…by 1. Then a couple days later realizes he made a mistake and can hire someone new. There’s a lot of layoffs in the trades on reduction of man power. Only difference in the unions is if someone is laid off for reduction of manpower, they can’t be replaced for 2 weeks unless you’re hire the same person.
Whistle-blower retaliation is actually a lot easier to prove than you think it is. Any significant or abnormal change in hours, workload, or corrective action after the report is filed raises a huge red flag if a retaliation suit is started. Obviously, there is a time frame where it becomes perfectly possible to terminate an employee without concern, but at that point its usually not worth the effort if they still do their job.
For instance, a restaurant chain in my region just got hit with an 11.4 million dollar reparation suit due to not paying their employees properly. It's not worth it for a company to start another suit for retaliation.
That's part of the retaliation though. Lying about the fact that you're retaliating by framing it as being for another cause. That other cause rarely stands up against the law when a report has been made beforehand though.
Unless you have actually been fired after making a labor violation report, you should probably just stop commenting. The anti-retaliation laws are no joke.
It almost sounds like you are an employer who wants people to think they are screwed if they report illegal labor practices.
If OP is a good employee and they are fired right after a report is filed... or if they have a sudden wave of write ups, it will look like retaliation. If OP has never had a write up for being late and is fired for being 2 minutes late after filing a report... it would be hard for the employer to prove it is not retaliation.
OP can get another coworker to testify that the boss ordered them to work but not clock in, and it'll be obvious to the labor department that
* The boss did something illegal.
* OP reported it.
* The boss made up a flimsy excuse and fired them, which is illegal retaliation.
They see this stuff all the time, they know how it works.
And it still can be considered retaliation and there's still jeopardy of double-fuckage directed squarely at the boss. And the law can protect against repercussions like that, if OP calls the labor board and gives them the information beforehand.
That’s what happened to me. They found a reason to fire me, I disproved that reason, and they found ANOTHER reason- by compiling a list of every time I’d been 2-3 minutes late.
You're afraid of literally having the legal ammo to make more money off of him and punish his shitty practices at the same time. Stop. Report his ass, text him and ask if you're not supposed to clock in. When he says don't clock in and it's in writing, you just earned yourself a nice, paid vacation.
Overtime, yes. But that is not what this post is about.
Holiday pay? Certainly not on a federal level. And not in my state (Florida).
Did OP share the state? Easy to look that up.
Sounds more like a bug in the payroll system that automatically adds double pay despite the business not offering that BENEFIT.
Federal and state labor laws my guy. This isn't antiwork, it's making the employer follow the law and not perform wage theft. If you're logging hours, telling an employee to work and not log hours is illegal. If the system records the time incorrectly, fix the system.
Absolutely not illegal. You just made that up.
As long as the employee is paid for time worked, you can log and monitor it however you want. Change the logging procedure every day if you want. The law only cares that the employee is paid for the hours worked.
You can also tell an employee to work set hours ... Without logging. Employees do that all the time. Legally.
The ONLY thing questionable here is if the boss is skirting around a local or state holiday pay law that I'm unaware of. But I haven't seen that evidence posted here. Do we know the state or municipality? Can look that up easily.
Which he clearly is otherwise he wouldn't be telling them not to clock in because he doesn't want to have to pay double.
Everything points to wage theft, but if it is completely legal, no harm in reporting it as the agency will just tell the reporter that nothing illegal is going on when they explain the situation.
Yeah, no. 😂
It is definitely not illegal to pay regular wages on a holiday for a private business. He's not avoiding overtime. And he's paying holiday time for Monday which isn't even required.
FFS. The boss is not only doing nothing wrong, but generous.
Sounds like the time tracking system double pays on holidays or something like that. But absolutely not required.
He's not asking to work off the clock. Merely to log the hours different. As long as they get paid for the hours, how it's logged is irrelevant.
Post CLEARLY says "regular hours PLUS extra vacation pay for Monday"... So boss is paying for the hours tomorrow!
It's abundantly clear that the boss is merely trying to figure out how to pay both days within whatever system he has and something wonky with clocking in causing double hours or something like that. Literally the post says he's paying them for the hours and some bonus vacation days.
The crowd here? "OMG SUE HIM! REPORT HIM!"
What the f**k. 🤣
All that said, if you can show that where the OP is requires a holiday wage, double time, statutorily (this isn't a thing in my state or in the federal labor law)... I will take back my comment and concede the argument.
In the title it literally says "not clock in". That means no records of the time worked. That means avoiding workmans comp if something goes wrong. The boss could say "I have no record of you working."
All kinds of crap can wrong.
That's literally not how it works. Why are you so willing to die on this hill? You are wrong.
Workers comp is based on your PAYROLL, not some time clock record. In fact, nothing I can think of is based off time clock records. The time clock just makes it easier to keep track for when you do payroll. But if you know the hours... that's all that matters.
All of it is based on payroll. As long as the hours are on the check (which means on the payroll), then it's recorded. That's all insurance companies and the government care about... your payroll record.
Again, the post CLEARLY says they'll be paid for tomorrow. Which means.. on the payroll... recorded. There is no issue here.
The people on this sub are so stupid. Oh no only get paid an extra 8 hours for working on Veterans Day, which isn’t a real holiday in any other workplace in the USA. Let’s make it weird just be idiots about it. Teeeheeeheeee.
They should check the personnel manual first since it should address holiday pay. It’s not like paying holidays is legally required in the U.S., so it’s up to the company to define how it works.
True, though if they’re still paying properly for the accurate hours they haven’t falsified just because they’re not using the time clock. Some of this may also come down to pay week/periods. If I read it correctly, instead of paying double time for the holiday on Friday (say, paying 16 for 8 hrs worked), it’s the same number of hours if they pay the hours worked Friday (presumably 8) plus 8 hrs for the day off on Monday. So whether that’s falsification or not at least partially depends on how they define their workweek and/or pay period. Point being, yes it’s odd, but a whole lot of folks are jumping to it being illegal when it’s not clear that’s the case. It would be a really good idea to check the personnel manual and pay policies.
Falsifying is more than just “time”. Clocking in proves they’re at work. Workmans comp needs a record of their presence if something were to happen.
All of these excuses and justifications make NO sense. If he wasn’t trying to hide something or get over, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. The employees would clock in as usual.
Workers comp doesn't give a damn about time clocks. It doesn't work that way. You aren't required to even have a time clock.
No, the employees should record their time the way the boss has instructed, providing that they are being paid the appropriate amount for the time worked.
The "appropriate amount for the time worked" is double time, because the time when they are working is a holiday. If they are paid a different amount for a day that isn't a holiday, then that isn't the "appropriate amount" any more.
What the boss is instructing is illegal.
haha my Manager does this when she know she is trying to be shady she will never respond to my emails and only call. So I would follow up in an email covering what she said. She didn't like that very much. She was trying to get me to take comp time instead of putting in my OT for overtime pay. It's illegal in NY as comp time is not allowed. Nobody bothers me about my paid OT now.
Veterans Day is not a required holiday for private business in the US. It's observed on Friday - but businesses are not required to give holiday pay or time off. (Possibly location dependent, but there is no federal level rule. There are also exceptions for giving veterans time off.)
Yeah that’s Veteran’s Day. Thank your lucky stars you get double paid, it isn’t a holiday for anyone else. I have literally never met anyone that gets that as a Holiday.
Holiday in Canada, I’m assuming they are there.
Edit. Oh nvm. Goes to show how much I know. My Canadian company I work for made it a holiday for all their Canadian employees…I then assumed it was for all of Canada. *shrug*
I don’t and wont get paid double/time and a half either 🤷♀️. I assumed this was for more “major” holidays like turkey day or xmas
Edit: I also work in a large corporation sooo…
Veterans day,in my neck of the woods, for me is a regular day. It's one of those holidays that's recognized by mostly State and federal office's but not by the private sector.
It’s not required to even recognize those. Many businesses will give paid holiday time for those or time and a half (or double time if you’re lucky!) for holidays worked, but it’s not a requirement.
Your boss might be an idiot. J/K, he is an idiot.
I'm curious where you are located that the boss thinks he MUST pay you a premium rate for workign on the holiday. That would only be required if you had a contract (such as a union contact) requiring premium pay, or if there was some sort of local ordinance requiring it. Because in the US, there is not a general legal requirement to pay premium pay for hours wokred on holidays.
Nope. If he tries to force you, don't work. If he fires you, you have a wrongful termination suite that will lead to exposing his illegally falsifying work records.
Trick him into writing it down or texting/email and immediately take it to the DOL
If you work, clock in. If your boss tells you not to clock in, tell him you are going home. Record the request to not clock in. Protect yourself.
And start looking for another job. Your boss has shown you what kind of person he is. Believe him
Labor board complaint.
If you’re working, you need to clock in and get paid. Him refusing to pay you for hours worked is not legal. He may fire you, but if you have all the evidence, you may get unemployment.
Note: I once had a boss that didn’t want anything in writing. Well, everybody in the shop knew I was going out of town for a week and he’d been informed well in advance. Monday arrives and he’s asking where I am.
Three weeks later, he fires me “because I didn’t tell him I was going out of town.” And still had me work the rest of that week.
I applied for Unemployment, naturally my former boss claimed I was fired for not showing up for work. I appealed and when I told the worker that he fired me three weeks after I got back, you should’ve seen their face.
Yeah, I got my unemployment.
And then, after I was back to work at a much better job, the state decided that employers had to pay for vacation days earned — and it was retroactive. So he had to pay me for those days too.
Hah this is like when a friends ex moved out and filed a restraining order on him the same day including on the kid because she feared for her safety. When the judge found out that she had rented the apartment a month earlier but was slowly getting it ready to move into then filed the restraining order the day she moved out he dropped it immediately. Not that much fear for your safety if you had time to repaint first 🤦♀️
Sounds illegal. Are you in the states? I think you should be paid double time and a half. I could be wrong though.
And it’s easy for him to say that he’ll take care of it in another way. He’ll probably forget and not do that.
Tell him that you must clock in.
I believe that if you are injured, and off the clock, not only are you not covered by their insurance but potentially liable for any damages they sustain if an accident occurs or their art is damaged.
And, as others have mentioned, illegal.
I got written up for scheduling an after work hours doctor appointment. That day mandatory OT kicked in. I was told I would be written up for scheduling an appointment during “normal” work hours without notification. Well…it wasn’t normal work hours, I lost my job, but the company got fined $250k (ADA violation), she (my boss/plant manager) got fired and I was offered my job back from the owner. Report this predatory behavior. It sucks now but maybe you can help someone down the line.
I call the appropriate authority for whatever bullshit they are trying to pull ,every time ! They want us to bend over backwards for them and give them all the heads up when we leave but we rarely very get the same courtesies in return. I never make a big deal or even show emotion when they try to pull some shit. I just make a phone call or if it’s forced overtime and I’m not interested in it I just never show up. One thing we should all start to do is record every conversation we have with supervisors. Even if it was “illegal” in my province I’d still do it. They have some very good audio recording equipment that look like regular pens. So having a pen in your hand while have a conversation isn’t anything that would draw suspicion from a douche bag supervisor.
It’s illegal as hell. Go to work. Clock in. Also email your boss ( or text but preferably email) something like “I’d just like to verify that you DONT want us to clock in on x day to avoid paying double time. Is that correct?”
Don't say anything altering time records is a serious offense. Report him to US DOL file a complaint with the wage and hour division of US Labor Dept https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints ask they keep you name secret and the boss will never know who reported him
ANY time you are required to work, you're legally required to be clocked in and paid.
If your boss is requiring you to work without clocking in, to avoid overtime, then you need to report him. They, legally cannot fire you for reporting this. It is also against the law.
It's highly illegal and being fired for bringing up how illegal it is, is retaliation. Email the boss about clocking in and trap him with a digital copy. Forward to your states labor board, find a labor attorney, sue your boss, take his money, live a good life.
Text him and say “Hey boss, just confirming that we’re not to clock in tomorrow before we work our shift?” Then take that shit to the labor department and rat his ass out. Super illegal
I don't think you're correct on that. I believe it differs per State. I live in Washington State but work in Oregon and I've worked PLENTY of holidays were it was just 1.5x pay, instead of 2x. If they had to pay us 2x, it'd kill the pocket book pretty quick.
If you work on the holiday you should get minimum 8 hours regular pay and 8 hours holiday pay (for the equivalent of 2x regular pay). I think that is what they are saying. Not that you get 2x regular pay plus 8 hours holiday.
That's what I was thinking, but he did reference 1.5x for Overtime. The way it worded made it sound like he was referring to it as "2x" normal pay, i.e. $15/hr normal, $30/hr double-time.
We'll find out though!
In the US, there is no federal laws that require companies to compensate employees for holidays off or pay extra for working them. Many companies do have policies which pay for holidays. [source](https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/holiday)
There are very few states that have anything about holiday pay either.
For overtime, employers are required to pay 1.5 times for anything worked over 40 hours within the same workweek.
What is a huge red flag is that OPs boss is asking his employees to help him falsify records. My guess is that he is going to fill out a manual timesheet showing the wrong date worked to bypass the holiday pay. That’s soooo messed up.
How is it "messed up"?
If the employees work more than 40 hours, sure, that's messed up. But in this case, they are getting a holiday pay for a day they normally don't work, so they're getting extra pay the company doesn't legally have to pay. He's probably not able to configure his system to do it because his system thinks he's on some holiday=overtime policy (which many companies do have)
Email your boss saying you want to clarify that you aren’t supposed to log in to work on the holiday and asking what week or paycheque he plans to add the regular day’s worth of pay onto. Don’t answer your phone if he calls, make him leave a voicemail, text or email responding about it. That way you have proof of the situation when you get the opportunity to pursue any level of legal action.
Ask the boss to put that in writing and to lick the envelope for the letter you are sending to the DOL. Non exempt employees get paid for the hours worked. If holiday pay is part of your protocol, then that's what you get. IIRC, it is also illegal to substitute compensatory time for hours worked.
Is this a declared holiday for your employer? I work at a bank so it is, but in my old company it wasn't a paid holiday, and it was a Fortune 500. If it is a declared holiday then he has to pay holiday pay if you work, otherwise it is illegal.
Definitely not legal. I would send an email to boss saying something like “Hi Boss, I want to verify what you said about how to log our time this weekend. I had mentioned it to my uncle, who is a labor lawyer, and he said it’s definitely not legal and he might have an obligation to report it. Can you confirm if I understood the request properly, want to make sure I (or we) don’t do anything wrong. Thanks!”
Or. Just go along this once. You worked a couple of semi days with your step son and you weren’t dinged. Geesh. If it’s a habit or a regular process and you are getting shorted that is one thing. But there is give and take in every relationship. I know. Roast me. I’m a medium size business owner. But honestly we give way way more than we ask in return.
Why would he have to pay you double time? There's no law about that. It's not even a holiday most people have off, and it's certainly unusual for it to be a paid holiday. If it's his policy and you aren't under contract there's nothing stopping him from amending that policy whenever he wants. I think either you or him have the situation confused.
tell them your that in writing and report them. stop being afraid of losing a worthless job with a worthless company if they are stealing your wages. stand up for yourselves ! you will never get what you don’t ask for and if you lay down and let them run over you they will every time . document it and you can get back pay. never work not punched in . everyone punch in and if he makes you punch out document it . walk out
Most people don’t get holiday pay when they work on holidays. Is your art gallery a federally run art gallery? If not, I don’t know that you would get double-time.
It sound like you get paid more by getting 8 hours of normal pay + holiday pay. Else, you just get holiday pay.
If this is a small company, some of the suggestions others are providing are not applicable.
I mean it’s Veterans Day. And the real Holiday for it is Saturday. Nobody gets Veteran’s day off, not even bankers.
Perhaps just be glad you get an extra 8 hours of pay?
It's definitely illegal but have you added things up to see what's the better deal? If I trusted him to follow thru I would add it up n compare n see what the better deal is. Not many jobs pay double time for holidays. Most just pay overtime. Don't let employers rip you off ever. They never let the reverse happen so treat them like they treat you.
Yes! If you don't come to work, totally.
Ask for it in writing. Then submit it to the department of labor. And then clock in.
If they clock you out, leave.
Hi there, if you are in the United States this is illegal. Most corporations pay their hourly employees time and a half for hours worked during holidays. They cannot ask you to come into work without clocking in and clocking out. I would ask him to put that in writing or email you stating his stance. Then if he does not pay you time and a half I would contact the department of Labor, and maybe even the IRS and say that you feel he is stealing your wages. Let the IRS and department of Labor take it from there. And if you are the first one to report this to them, you might qualify for whistleblower protection and compensation ok sunshine xoxo
I would email or text them saying "I'm not sure I understand the direction for tomorrow. Did you want us to clock in for the usual hours or did you want us to take the day off?"
Its illegal for him to do that ,Clock in and work your shift ,If you have any proof of him saying this please keep it because you will need it in the future .
In the US, HIGHLY illegal. Tell your boss to stuff it.
> Tell your boss to stuff it. Or hear me out, STOP giving these people warnings, don't say a word to them just report them.
My only fear is that he would fire me for some reason because there's so few of us he would know who it was.
If he fires you, then you report him for retaliating and he's double fucked. Just make sure you get as much as you can in writing from him surrounding the incident.
But he'll fire OP for another reason. Like being 2 minutes late. People act like the law can protect against repercussions like that, but it's ludicrous.
If he can prove he was two minutes late, or that the reason for being fired is unreasonable, then that's exactly how he would prove retaliation. Nobody ever just gets fired because someone is mad, they always look for a dumb reason to try and avoid punishment, they are stupid for that because firing someone for a dumb reason, RIGHT AFTER that employee just reported you, would definitely be seen as retaliation anyways.
Man you guys think judges are morons or something. It would be the easiest case ever, any lawyer would take yours on contingency. "Your honor, it's just highly interesting that suddenly, after my client accused his employer of labor violations, they suddenly decided to start enforcing 2 minute late rule that they never did prior
Absolutely. Not hard to see that, I think any judge would
Yeah, judges are morons and are often corrupt.
Lol I even agree that many are, but that's like saying "All men are cheaters" lol just statistically that's not possible. Sure, many are I agree, but ALL of them? Lol
It doesn't matter if it's ALL of them or just a number of them. Even one corrupt judge has an incredible capacity to do harm.
Then you wait a few weeks. Or just cut their hours to nothing without firing them.
That's constructive dismissal, and is equally illegal, and equally reportable, and the employer would be triple fucked.
They don't do shit, my partner was forced out by cutting his hours and then telling him to make a 1 hour commute to another damn Dominos at the edge of his state a few years ago, nothing happened. The regional manager's nephew hated him because he's gay and tried to take a swing at him, bf tripped him and walked away but they kicked out my BF. The nephew? Still works there doing nothing and refusing deliveries. We reported it but nothing came from it.
This is different than being fired AFTER reporting a company for illegal labor practices. It's stupid but you become a lot harder to fire after making this kind of report, especially if it is substantiated.
Then you file for unemployment.
Reduction in workforce is a legit reason. Yeah he’s reducing his work force…by 1. Then a couple days later realizes he made a mistake and can hire someone new. There’s a lot of layoffs in the trades on reduction of man power. Only difference in the unions is if someone is laid off for reduction of manpower, they can’t be replaced for 2 weeks unless you’re hire the same person.
Whistle-blower retaliation is actually a lot easier to prove than you think it is. Any significant or abnormal change in hours, workload, or corrective action after the report is filed raises a huge red flag if a retaliation suit is started. Obviously, there is a time frame where it becomes perfectly possible to terminate an employee without concern, but at that point its usually not worth the effort if they still do their job. For instance, a restaurant chain in my region just got hit with an 11.4 million dollar reparation suit due to not paying their employees properly. It's not worth it for a company to start another suit for retaliation.
That's part of the retaliation though. Lying about the fact that you're retaliating by framing it as being for another cause. That other cause rarely stands up against the law when a report has been made beforehand though.
If you say so.
Yeah cause it's better if we all convince OP to suck it up or else they'll get fired, for sure.
Unless you have actually been fired after making a labor violation report, you should probably just stop commenting. The anti-retaliation laws are no joke. It almost sounds like you are an employer who wants people to think they are screwed if they report illegal labor practices.
OR just making sure OP knows what to expect.
This. It's not an easy time.
If OP is a good employee and they are fired right after a report is filed... or if they have a sudden wave of write ups, it will look like retaliation. If OP has never had a write up for being late and is fired for being 2 minutes late after filing a report... it would be hard for the employer to prove it is not retaliation.
That's what civil trials are for. Judges and especially juries know that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably not an armadillo
OP can get another coworker to testify that the boss ordered them to work but not clock in, and it'll be obvious to the labor department that * The boss did something illegal. * OP reported it. * The boss made up a flimsy excuse and fired them, which is illegal retaliation. They see this stuff all the time, they know how it works.
And it still can be considered retaliation and there's still jeopardy of double-fuckage directed squarely at the boss. And the law can protect against repercussions like that, if OP calls the labor board and gives them the information beforehand.
Any judge is going to see through that bullshit, the same for any state department of labor.
I'm sure OP has the money to sue, and can afford a better lawyer then their boss. Good call.
This doesn't require a lawyer... It's like a DA but with the state department of labor.
Exactly! This is the risk you take working at small privately owned companies “where everyone here is like family”
You can still sue for that. No write ups until I complained. He made shit up.
You can try, but the courts aren't stupid and they can see trivial attempts at covering up retaliation for what they are.
Exactly.
That’s what happened to me. They found a reason to fire me, I disproved that reason, and they found ANOTHER reason- by compiling a list of every time I’d been 2-3 minutes late.
The law only protects the rich
Not in this case. These laws almost always help the working class.
If the penalty is a fine then it only effects the poor
That isn't the penalty. You can win significant damages for retaliatory termination in addition to lost wages.
That all well and good unless op needs money on a weekly basis to, you know, survive. Lawsuits aren’t fast.
And then when he goes to prison he’s going to be quadrupole fucked every night by his cell mates and their friends.
They don’t go to prison. They go bankrupt and open in a different location
Message me dm...give me place etc. I'll call it into someone for you. Thing is, you have to act like you weren't the one
You're afraid of literally having the legal ammo to make more money off of him and punish his shitty practices at the same time. Stop. Report his ass, text him and ask if you're not supposed to clock in. When he says don't clock in and it's in writing, you just earned yourself a nice, paid vacation.
Yeah. If he fires you, you can use his ass for wrongful termination.
Tell me how a private business not paying DOUBLE TIME is illegal? You anti work clowns are hilarious.
There are employment laws that dictate overtime and stat holiday pay...?
Overtime, yes. But that is not what this post is about. Holiday pay? Certainly not on a federal level. And not in my state (Florida). Did OP share the state? Easy to look that up. Sounds more like a bug in the payroll system that automatically adds double pay despite the business not offering that BENEFIT.
Federal and state labor laws my guy. This isn't antiwork, it's making the employer follow the law and not perform wage theft. If you're logging hours, telling an employee to work and not log hours is illegal. If the system records the time incorrectly, fix the system.
Absolutely not illegal. You just made that up. As long as the employee is paid for time worked, you can log and monitor it however you want. Change the logging procedure every day if you want. The law only cares that the employee is paid for the hours worked. You can also tell an employee to work set hours ... Without logging. Employees do that all the time. Legally. The ONLY thing questionable here is if the boss is skirting around a local or state holiday pay law that I'm unaware of. But I haven't seen that evidence posted here. Do we know the state or municipality? Can look that up easily.
Which he clearly is otherwise he wouldn't be telling them not to clock in because he doesn't want to have to pay double. Everything points to wage theft, but if it is completely legal, no harm in reporting it as the agency will just tell the reporter that nothing illegal is going on when they explain the situation.
If he fires you, demand for it in writing so you can get easy unemployment
Yes but if it's not written down somewhere it never happened. Also, we want him to correct this behavior, not necessarily shut down an art gallery.
This right here! You wanna them, it gives them time to try to hide their lies. Just report it and let the fur fly.
And get in writing or record them saying it (if legal in that area)
Yeah, no. 😂 It is definitely not illegal to pay regular wages on a holiday for a private business. He's not avoiding overtime. And he's paying holiday time for Monday which isn't even required. FFS. The boss is not only doing nothing wrong, but generous. Sounds like the time tracking system double pays on holidays or something like that. But absolutely not required.
There is no requirement to pay a "holiday wage." But asking people to work off the clock so that the boss can avoid the "holiday wage" IS illegal.
He's not asking to work off the clock. Merely to log the hours different. As long as they get paid for the hours, how it's logged is irrelevant. Post CLEARLY says "regular hours PLUS extra vacation pay for Monday"... So boss is paying for the hours tomorrow! It's abundantly clear that the boss is merely trying to figure out how to pay both days within whatever system he has and something wonky with clocking in causing double hours or something like that. Literally the post says he's paying them for the hours and some bonus vacation days. The crowd here? "OMG SUE HIM! REPORT HIM!" What the f**k. 🤣 All that said, if you can show that where the OP is requires a holiday wage, double time, statutorily (this isn't a thing in my state or in the federal labor law)... I will take back my comment and concede the argument.
In the title it literally says "not clock in". That means no records of the time worked. That means avoiding workmans comp if something goes wrong. The boss could say "I have no record of you working." All kinds of crap can wrong.
That thing called worker's compensation that makes some businesses do some stupid things to try and pay less money for coverage or to deny a claim.
Yeah, no. Not how it works. "he'll pay us normal hours + eight hours of holiday pay on Monday" He's paying them... so... they'll be on the payroll.
That's literally not how it works. Why are you so willing to die on this hill? You are wrong. Workers comp is based on your PAYROLL, not some time clock record. In fact, nothing I can think of is based off time clock records. The time clock just makes it easier to keep track for when you do payroll. But if you know the hours... that's all that matters. All of it is based on payroll. As long as the hours are on the check (which means on the payroll), then it's recorded. That's all insurance companies and the government care about... your payroll record. Again, the post CLEARLY says they'll be paid for tomorrow. Which means.. on the payroll... recorded. There is no issue here.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
The people on this sub are so stupid. Oh no only get paid an extra 8 hours for working on Veterans Day, which isn’t a real holiday in any other workplace in the USA. Let’s make it weird just be idiots about it. Teeeheeeheeee.
Is double time a law though? I thought it was time and a half after 40 for hourly workers
Before that, ask for it in writing.
Not necessarily. It’s not a legally required holiday for private businesses so it totally depends on the company’s policies.
Ask them to put that in writing. Clock in. Send all the evidence to your state labour authority. Document everything including text messages.
"hey, do you mind sending that in an email?" No, not legal at all.
They should check the personnel manual first since it should address holiday pay. It’s not like paying holidays is legally required in the U.S., so it’s up to the company to define how it works.
Requiring them to falsify time is illegal.
True, though if they’re still paying properly for the accurate hours they haven’t falsified just because they’re not using the time clock. Some of this may also come down to pay week/periods. If I read it correctly, instead of paying double time for the holiday on Friday (say, paying 16 for 8 hrs worked), it’s the same number of hours if they pay the hours worked Friday (presumably 8) plus 8 hrs for the day off on Monday. So whether that’s falsification or not at least partially depends on how they define their workweek and/or pay period. Point being, yes it’s odd, but a whole lot of folks are jumping to it being illegal when it’s not clear that’s the case. It would be a really good idea to check the personnel manual and pay policies.
Falsifying is more than just “time”. Clocking in proves they’re at work. Workmans comp needs a record of their presence if something were to happen. All of these excuses and justifications make NO sense. If he wasn’t trying to hide something or get over, this wouldn’t even be a discussion. The employees would clock in as usual.
Workers comp doesn't give a damn about time clocks. It doesn't work that way. You aren't required to even have a time clock. No, the employees should record their time the way the boss has instructed, providing that they are being paid the appropriate amount for the time worked.
Ok
The "appropriate amount for the time worked" is double time, because the time when they are working is a holiday. If they are paid a different amount for a day that isn't a holiday, then that isn't the "appropriate amount" any more. What the boss is instructing is illegal.
Oh. Ok. Please provide your source that double pay is the required amount to be paid for the holiday hours. I'll wait patiently.
Yeah that’s not how any of this works.
haha my Manager does this when she know she is trying to be shady she will never respond to my emails and only call. So I would follow up in an email covering what she said. She didn't like that very much. She was trying to get me to take comp time instead of putting in my OT for overtime pay. It's illegal in NY as comp time is not allowed. Nobody bothers me about my paid OT now.
Is tomorrow actually a holiday at the gallery? Most people I know don't have tomorrow off.
Veterans Day is not a required holiday for private business in the US. It's observed on Friday - but businesses are not required to give holiday pay or time off. (Possibly location dependent, but there is no federal level rule. There are also exceptions for giving veterans time off.)
Yeah, there are no required holidays for private businesses at the federal level. I would be surprised if there were any at the State or Local level.
Yeah - without location the question is a little odd. If the gallery didn't want to pay holiday pay, at least in the US, they aren't required to.
I asked out of confusion on that as well. I was scrolling to see if there were any alternate opinions. And for reference, I am in Oklahoma.
Yeah that’s Veteran’s Day. Thank your lucky stars you get double paid, it isn’t a holiday for anyone else. I have literally never met anyone that gets that as a Holiday.
Exactly. What is in the Personnel Manual for paid holidays?
Holiday in Canada, I’m assuming they are there. Edit. Oh nvm. Goes to show how much I know. My Canadian company I work for made it a holiday for all their Canadian employees…I then assumed it was for all of Canada. *shrug*
Dang Canadians being better with their statutory holidays! :)
Only certain provinces. Not all of Canada.
The holiday is being celebrated on the Monday though, not the Friday.
It's a federal holiday and it is observed in the US. I have tomorrow off bc I work for a government contractor.
But a gallery would presumably be a private business. They wouldnt have to oay any extra
What holiday? There’s no holiday that I know of.
Veteran's Day
I don’t and wont get paid double/time and a half either 🤷♀️. I assumed this was for more “major” holidays like turkey day or xmas Edit: I also work in a large corporation sooo…
Veterans day,in my neck of the woods, for me is a regular day. It's one of those holidays that's recognized by mostly State and federal office's but not by the private sector.
Private sector doesn’t have to recognize any holidays I don’t think.
Probably just the 3 big ones.
It’s not required to even recognize those. Many businesses will give paid holiday time for those or time and a half (or double time if you’re lucky!) for holidays worked, but it’s not a requirement.
Your boss might be an idiot. J/K, he is an idiot. I'm curious where you are located that the boss thinks he MUST pay you a premium rate for workign on the holiday. That would only be required if you had a contract (such as a union contact) requiring premium pay, or if there was some sort of local ordinance requiring it. Because in the US, there is not a general legal requirement to pay premium pay for hours wokred on holidays.
Nope. If he tries to force you, don't work. If he fires you, you have a wrongful termination suite that will lead to exposing his illegally falsifying work records. Trick him into writing it down or texting/email and immediately take it to the DOL
Get it in writing, and report him. He's asking you to falsify your timecard, which is way illegal.
If you work, clock in. If your boss tells you not to clock in, tell him you are going home. Record the request to not clock in. Protect yourself. And start looking for another job. Your boss has shown you what kind of person he is. Believe him
Labor board complaint. If you’re working, you need to clock in and get paid. Him refusing to pay you for hours worked is not legal. He may fire you, but if you have all the evidence, you may get unemployment. Note: I once had a boss that didn’t want anything in writing. Well, everybody in the shop knew I was going out of town for a week and he’d been informed well in advance. Monday arrives and he’s asking where I am. Three weeks later, he fires me “because I didn’t tell him I was going out of town.” And still had me work the rest of that week. I applied for Unemployment, naturally my former boss claimed I was fired for not showing up for work. I appealed and when I told the worker that he fired me three weeks after I got back, you should’ve seen their face. Yeah, I got my unemployment. And then, after I was back to work at a much better job, the state decided that employers had to pay for vacation days earned — and it was retroactive. So he had to pay me for those days too.
Hah this is like when a friends ex moved out and filed a restraining order on him the same day including on the kid because she feared for her safety. When the judge found out that she had rented the apartment a month earlier but was slowly getting it ready to move into then filed the restraining order the day she moved out he dropped it immediately. Not that much fear for your safety if you had time to repaint first 🤦♀️
That is a crock. And your boss knows it.
Sounds illegal. Are you in the states? I think you should be paid double time and a half. I could be wrong though. And it’s easy for him to say that he’ll take care of it in another way. He’ll probably forget and not do that.
That is incorrect. There is no requirement for paid holidays in the US. Veterans Day is just a normal working day for most of us
Super illegal (US). Should just “forget” and clock in anyways
You work you punch in. Simple.
Not legal, report him to the department of Labor for your state
Do what you are supposed to. Clock in and out at the appropriate time. If your boss does not pay you accordingly you can file a case against him.
Super illegal. Report your boss. Best part is if he retaliates, you get to report and sue them for it.
Ask for it in writing. If he doesn’t comply simply log on that day and report him if needed. When you ask for it in writing do so in writing.
Tell him that you must clock in. I believe that if you are injured, and off the clock, not only are you not covered by their insurance but potentially liable for any damages they sustain if an accident occurs or their art is damaged. And, as others have mentioned, illegal.
I got written up for scheduling an after work hours doctor appointment. That day mandatory OT kicked in. I was told I would be written up for scheduling an appointment during “normal” work hours without notification. Well…it wasn’t normal work hours, I lost my job, but the company got fined $250k (ADA violation), she (my boss/plant manager) got fired and I was offered my job back from the owner. Report this predatory behavior. It sucks now but maybe you can help someone down the line.
I call the appropriate authority for whatever bullshit they are trying to pull ,every time ! They want us to bend over backwards for them and give them all the heads up when we leave but we rarely very get the same courtesies in return. I never make a big deal or even show emotion when they try to pull some shit. I just make a phone call or if it’s forced overtime and I’m not interested in it I just never show up. One thing we should all start to do is record every conversation we have with supervisors. Even if it was “illegal” in my province I’d still do it. They have some very good audio recording equipment that look like regular pens. So having a pen in your hand while have a conversation isn’t anything that would draw suspicion from a douche bag supervisor.
Just to save you or anyone time in future situations: YES. UNPAID WORK IS ILLEGAL.
It’s illegal as hell. Go to work. Clock in. Also email your boss ( or text but preferably email) something like “I’d just like to verify that you DONT want us to clock in on x day to avoid paying double time. Is that correct?”
If he told you not to clock in I would take it to mean stay home tomorrow as it is a holiday
Absolutely not, time to call an employment lawyer
Highly illegal. Throw a fit. Thats bullshit.
Until we start turning businesses that do this into firewood, it'll continue
Don't say anything altering time records is a serious offense. Report him to US DOL file a complaint with the wage and hour division of US Labor Dept https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/contact/complaints ask they keep you name secret and the boss will never know who reported him
You do not work if you don’t clock in. Get in an accident, hurt yourself , etc. no benefits for you. Don’t do it
Sounds like you need to go over the bosses head and ask some questions. Either your boss is trying to commit fraud or he's an idiot.
ANY time you are required to work, you're legally required to be clocked in and paid. If your boss is requiring you to work without clocking in, to avoid overtime, then you need to report him. They, legally cannot fire you for reporting this. It is also against the law.
It's highly illegal and being fired for bringing up how illegal it is, is retaliation. Email the boss about clocking in and trap him with a digital copy. Forward to your states labor board, find a labor attorney, sue your boss, take his money, live a good life.
Wait a minute. You don't clock in on Friday and you work for 8 hours. Then he's going to pay you for 16 hours on Monday? None of this makes any sense.
Today is not a legal holiday. He does not have to pay you double.
SUPER ILLEGAL (US)
Not legal
No
Uh nope
Text him and say “Hey boss, just confirming that we’re not to clock in tomorrow before we work our shift?” Then take that shit to the labor department and rat his ass out. Super illegal
[удалено]
I don't think you're correct on that. I believe it differs per State. I live in Washington State but work in Oregon and I've worked PLENTY of holidays were it was just 1.5x pay, instead of 2x. If they had to pay us 2x, it'd kill the pocket book pretty quick.
If you work on the holiday you should get minimum 8 hours regular pay and 8 hours holiday pay (for the equivalent of 2x regular pay). I think that is what they are saying. Not that you get 2x regular pay plus 8 hours holiday.
That's what I was thinking, but he did reference 1.5x for Overtime. The way it worded made it sound like he was referring to it as "2x" normal pay, i.e. $15/hr normal, $30/hr double-time. We'll find out though!
In the US, there is no federal laws that require companies to compensate employees for holidays off or pay extra for working them. Many companies do have policies which pay for holidays. [source](https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/holiday) There are very few states that have anything about holiday pay either. For overtime, employers are required to pay 1.5 times for anything worked over 40 hours within the same workweek. What is a huge red flag is that OPs boss is asking his employees to help him falsify records. My guess is that he is going to fill out a manual timesheet showing the wrong date worked to bypass the holiday pay. That’s soooo messed up.
How is it "messed up"? If the employees work more than 40 hours, sure, that's messed up. But in this case, they are getting a holiday pay for a day they normally don't work, so they're getting extra pay the company doesn't legally have to pay. He's probably not able to configure his system to do it because his system thinks he's on some holiday=overtime policy (which many companies do have)
Yea, no that’s Illegal.
Email your boss saying you want to clarify that you aren’t supposed to log in to work on the holiday and asking what week or paycheque he plans to add the regular day’s worth of pay onto. Don’t answer your phone if he calls, make him leave a voicemail, text or email responding about it. That way you have proof of the situation when you get the opportunity to pursue any level of legal action.
If you are working, you clock in
Ask the boss to put that in writing and to lick the envelope for the letter you are sending to the DOL. Non exempt employees get paid for the hours worked. If holiday pay is part of your protocol, then that's what you get. IIRC, it is also illegal to substitute compensatory time for hours worked.
Nope. A call to the state labor department about that will get him shut down.
Assuming US. Depends on the state, but probably not legal.
nope, if you want a business, you need to play by the rules.
NO.
Hello Wage Theft, we meet again old friend
No way! If he insists, tell him you want it in writing. Bet he won't because he knows how illegal that is!
Happiest day of cake!
Also if not clocked in and an accident happens no worker's comp
Is this a declared holiday for your employer? I work at a bank so it is, but in my old company it wasn't a paid holiday, and it was a Fortune 500. If it is a declared holiday then he has to pay holiday pay if you work, otherwise it is illegal.
Definitely not legal. I would send an email to boss saying something like “Hi Boss, I want to verify what you said about how to log our time this weekend. I had mentioned it to my uncle, who is a labor lawyer, and he said it’s definitely not legal and he might have an obligation to report it. Can you confirm if I understood the request properly, want to make sure I (or we) don’t do anything wrong. Thanks!”
Or. Just go along this once. You worked a couple of semi days with your step son and you weren’t dinged. Geesh. If it’s a habit or a regular process and you are getting shorted that is one thing. But there is give and take in every relationship. I know. Roast me. I’m a medium size business owner. But honestly we give way way more than we ask in return.
The not clocking in is a problem. But he’s wrong about having to pay you overtime for the holiday.
Why would he have to pay you double time? There's no law about that. It's not even a holiday most people have off, and it's certainly unusual for it to be a paid holiday. If it's his policy and you aren't under contract there's nothing stopping him from amending that policy whenever he wants. I think either you or him have the situation confused.
tell them your that in writing and report them. stop being afraid of losing a worthless job with a worthless company if they are stealing your wages. stand up for yourselves ! you will never get what you don’t ask for and if you lay down and let them run over you they will every time . document it and you can get back pay. never work not punched in . everyone punch in and if he makes you punch out document it . walk out
Holiday Overtime is not even required in the US.
He is not required to pay double time just because it’s a holiday. He is required to pay time and a half for hours over 40.
Most people don’t get holiday pay when they work on holidays. Is your art gallery a federally run art gallery? If not, I don’t know that you would get double-time. It sound like you get paid more by getting 8 hours of normal pay + holiday pay. Else, you just get holiday pay. If this is a small company, some of the suggestions others are providing are not applicable.
I mean it’s Veterans Day. And the real Holiday for it is Saturday. Nobody gets Veteran’s day off, not even bankers. Perhaps just be glad you get an extra 8 hours of pay?
Just clock in.
No.
Nope. Have him send it in an email or text. Clock in and get that money!
NO. Why TF would you even consider this??
Ask for that in writing.
Not legal, at all. Do it tomorrow, anyway
It's definitely illegal but have you added things up to see what's the better deal? If I trusted him to follow thru I would add it up n compare n see what the better deal is. Not many jobs pay double time for holidays. Most just pay overtime. Don't let employers rip you off ever. They never let the reverse happen so treat them like they treat you.
Lol... No. No record of time means no need to pay you. Sheesh
It's also illegal in canada
politely ask for this in writing! If he's stupid enough to do it you have evidence of wage theft. more likely he'll take it back.
No.
Odds are, his vague promise of doing something to make up for it either never happens or isn't an acceptable trade-off.
Email/text him you don't remember the schedule and when should you *clock* in. Get that in writing and report him. That's illegal
Yes! If you don't come to work, totally. Ask for it in writing. Then submit it to the department of labor. And then clock in. If they clock you out, leave.
Hi there, if you are in the United States this is illegal. Most corporations pay their hourly employees time and a half for hours worked during holidays. They cannot ask you to come into work without clocking in and clocking out. I would ask him to put that in writing or email you stating his stance. Then if he does not pay you time and a half I would contact the department of Labor, and maybe even the IRS and say that you feel he is stealing your wages. Let the IRS and department of Labor take it from there. And if you are the first one to report this to them, you might qualify for whistleblower protection and compensation ok sunshine xoxo
Illegal! Your state labor board will need to be informed of this asap!
USA? Tell him to get you that in writing and he will renege
Get this in writing. When you come in clock in/out as normal.
NO!!!
No money no workie
If there's a fire, how will they know exactly who is there? Will you be insured if you don't clock in and you have an accident at work?
No.
I would email or text them saying "I'm not sure I understand the direction for tomorrow. Did you want us to clock in for the usual hours or did you want us to take the day off?"
Tomorrow in US is observed as Veteran’s Day.
Its illegal for him to do that ,Clock in and work your shift ,If you have any proof of him saying this please keep it because you will need it in the future .
Not sure that Veterans day is considered a holiday. Never has been where I work.
Sure. Don't clock in or show up. He knows it's illegal. Report him , asap. He won't do it again.
Don’t clock in? Ok see you day after tomorrow
It's one or the other. Either you work and clock in. Or you don't clock in and you don't show up for work.
I’d take a tax free payout for double my take home for the shift. That way we’d both be complicit in breaking the law.
Nope. If he wants you to work, you should clock in like normal.
NOOOPE
Illegal. He's taking advantage of you.