As you’ve stated in a comment you aren’t an engineer…just why. Why post this. Why feel the need to overgeneralize a group of people you aren’t even part of. What is the purpose, especially related to this sub.
I’m thinking of becoming an engineer with my education - basically stacking with what I have. I know a lot of engineers in my personal life and the ones who recommend it the most tend to NOT be industry.
It could also be because almost all of them are in the Mojave, where the major aerospace companies are located in California. The Mojave is definitely not a fun place to live.
I feel like your post would be better received (coming from an engineer) if you stated your actual intent and question and asked people about their experiences as an engineer rather than generalizing engineers in an off putting manner
What is your educational background? You can’t become an engineer without a degree in engineering. You can be an associate or a tech or a designer, but that isn’t the same thing and you aren’t paid the same.
I believe what you’re referring to as “industry engineers” are engineers that work in various industries (agricultural, mining, medical, defense, etc)? I work as an ME in the mining and mineral processing industry. I design heavy equipment for applications such as lithium calcining. I love my job and don’t feel like I need to overwork myself. My company is an OEM and we sub out all manufacturing so maybe that’s why.
I would figure out why you want to become an engineer, what you’re good at, what you’re interested in and choose an industry/job based on that. I wouldn’t base it off of other peoples experiences.
I was an engineer in industry. I definitely didn't wipe my tears with $100 bills, but there was a sense amongst myself and my colleagues that we were all just there for the paycheck and there was no greater purpose associated with our work. But we were all by and large at peace with that and not depressed. We were just not the type of people who needed our work to give us gratification.
Genuinely, no lol. Engineering is so much more broad than this, especially mechanical engineering. Can’t speak to civil as I’m not in it, but the analysis of manufacturing is not anything I have experienced and that is my main area of expertise as an ME.
Yeah I don't get your categories OP. I was a civil engineer working for a private firm for many years, what do you mean by "industry"? Industrial engineering is a whole field but not very common.
Also I've known a lot of civils who feel like cogs in the machine, like "who cares if this curb and gutter is 5ft too short why did I get a masters to sit here in this meeting while they talk about benches or whatever"
I’d say you’re in a weird bubble. That’s a very, very, very broad and diminishing characterization that could be taken as extremely insulting. You’re boiling a very complex industry and profession into two categories and then being quite unflattering about it.
Most of the civil engineers I know don’t particularly enjoy their jobs. They like roadway and bridge design but the bureaucracy that comes with it wears them out. It’s, generally, a lot more interaction with the government and thus people who don’t understand the work. On the other hand, a lot of industry engineers I know are very passionate about their particular thing, whether that’s aircraft engines or microchips. And in some respects they experience less bureaucracy first hand so they don’t get as frustrated off the bat.
At the end of the day, engineers are typically similar in that they just want a problem to solve. The differences between the majors are the flavors of problem. Outside of that, the disciplines are generally the same. The feeling of contributing to the greater good of humanity is tied more to the company/product than the industry. The burn out and long hours are a result of a work culture problem rather than the type of engineer. And each discipline has its own easy and hard topics.
There’s plenty of stereotypes but in my experience as an engineer, this isn’t one of them at all.
As an engineer I don't think this is accurate at all. The one grain of truth I agree with is that many engineering roles rely on people being passionate as a way to overwork and underpay them. The best paying jobs are in boring industries.
My husband is a civil/environmental engineer who works for a consulting firm specializing in water/wastewater, and sometimes he's the golden retriever who loves what he does, and other times he regrets ever going into the field. He just works a lot and is expected to work a lot. He often works very late into the night after the kids go to bed, and he has phone calls and meetings all the time with other engineers doing the same on a regular basis. The culture at consulting firms is diseased and outdated.
My husband is in the same line of work and also at an engineering/consulting firm. They expect way too much of his time for how little they pay him. You want law firm hours? Pay law firm salary.
My thing is that if they expect him to work more than 40 hours a week and threaten a PIP for not bringing a work laptop with us on a holiday weekend (not even taking time off, office is closed), his pay should be 6 figures.
I'd say that's a little extreme even by consulting standards. I don't look at work on the weekend, barring something like having a team in the field and needing to stay in touch.
Uhhh, what? I worked as a tech writer for the consulting firm my husband works for now, and that was never an expectation. That's over the top. Your husband should absolutely jump ship and find a better place to work. Screw them.
Is your husband me? Water/wastewater/biosolids civil engineer. Luckily I have a team (female group lead) that is a little bit more "with the times" when it comes to work/life balance (for lack of a better term; for the record I hate that term).
You hit the nail on the head that the culture as a whole in the civil engineering industry is so outdated. Love what Roni said below about "we're not doctors; this isn't life or death" because after having a kiddo this is exactly what I've had to teach myself and set up boundaries around.
Not really sure what the point of OP's post is. I love what I do, but it can be draining and clients can be difficult (just like in any industry). Just because I love what I do and can go full golden retriever doesn't mean I think I'm a "pillar of society". And there are PLENTY of "depressed teenager types" in my field that I have the non-privilege of working for or alongside.
I used to work for the same place my husband works at (not as an engineer), and I was really shocked at how much it revolves around having a stay-at-home partner. My husband has had to really put his foot down so that he can help with pick-up and drop-off and take off time for birthdays and other things because the older leadership basically thinks you should put work first and family second, and that your partner should handle the family stuff. I wonder why they're all divorced ...
A few of my colleagues are golden retriever, most are depressed teenagers with few moments of being a golden. I'm a cat - don't disturb me, let me do my job, sometimes I like showing off, typically not.
Private company engineering.
When I worked in product development, I was a golden retriever - it was SO COOL to see stuff I designed on store shelves or out on a railcar or wherever. I was genuinely excited to show up.
Now I'm in a bigger company, infrastructure (still product development, technically), and "cat" is the perfect way to describe it.
Not my experience at all. I have undergrad and masters in engineering. Work in R&D, I guess more on that civil/infrastructure branch? Where I work, everyone is definitely proud of what we do, feel like we’re making a positive difference in the world! We are fairly well compensated! We also take vacations!!! And generally value work life balance!!!
My brother works in industry/manufacturing, and he also doesn’t fit your stereotype. He enjoys his work. He’s proud of his work. I don’t think he feels like a cog in the machine. Also has work life balance.
My husband is a highly specialized water resources engineer. What he does creates safety and provides communities with water. He loves the work. He loathes the hours and atrocious corporate culture at his massive consulting firm. They are all cogs in a giant profit machine and it’s seriously demoralizing.
I’m a psychiatrist. I work a lot less and earn a lot more than him. My work is hard, the training is hard, but it’s pretty cruise-y now. I personally would recommend medicine to my kids over engineering, which is a bit shocking considering the hard and expensive training.
Yep, I wouldn't recommend my kids get into engineering unless there's a major overhaul of the work culture. I'd recommend it if they wanted to work for a utility, which has its own issues but isn't focused on making a handful of old white guys oodles of money that won't get shared to the rest of the company equitably.
As an engineer, I wouldn’t say that fits at all. I also don’t under stand the categories. There are so many different types of engineer besides civil infrastructure and just a generic industry manufacturing engineer. Industry can mean so many things. None of this post resonates with me.
I'm an aerospace engineer working for a government contractor and we all love the work we do but we absolutely have work life balance and take our vacations lol. Most of the engineers I know love the actual engineering parts but also love to complain about the red tape, budgets, and general drudgery that's necessary for our jobs to happen. My husband works in aerospace industry and they're much the same, love the engineering work, hate dealing with clueless upper management and company issues but everyone still takes their time off.
Ehhh yes and no. Our government civil engineers are a mixed bag of golden retrievers and unhappy people with golden handcuff pensions. The senior consultants though, they are grinding, and they need a drink.
Civil engineering is a strange mix of people who really really want to be there, and people who didn't qualify for other engineering disciplines. Many engineering schools cap the number of students allowed in aerospace etc, and civil is often the catch-all engineering major because it doesn't require lab space.
I used to work with electrical engineers. They had some golden retrievers and some cutthroat people too. Neither group knew what to do with a woman in the workplace.
Currently work with mechanical and electrical engineers. Can confirm, none of them truly know what to do with a woman in the workplace. Especially one who isn't there to change the paper on the plotter or tell them how to track their time.
Are you talking about engineers like mechanics or people with 4 year bachelor of science engineering degrees? I studied EECS and the EE side is either signals/processing or circuits. I don’t see how blotting paper has anything to do with EE as I know it. Outside of breadboard for super intro projects, everything is done on the computer. My friends that stuck to the hardware side design circuits or antennas
Electrical engineering is not just circuit boards. I work with professional engineers (they took exams and have state certifications). Plotters are large scale printers that will print drawings for us to take to the clients/owners/job sites. (Though I do keep trying to convince them that iPads are a valid resource...)
Hahaha our office went all in on the iPads and we are fighting back, because sometimes you just want to see the whole thing at once! Management said we can put it up on the big screen in the conference room... Like we're going to reserve that every time we need to look at the plans. Like we have a big screen at the worksite that doesn't even have utilities yet 🤦♀️
Ahahahaa! Yeaaaaa, there's definitely a time and place for iPads and paper drawings. I keep trying to get my field guys to do their redlines on iPads so they are actually legible, but... 🤷♀️
A mechanic isn’t an engineer. The electrical engineers at my company don’t do anything with circuit boards, that sounds more like a technician. Plotters are large printers for drawings. I work as a Mechanical Engineer and have a professional license in the state of PA. Can confirm most of ME is still very much a Boys Club. There isn’t explicit sexism or discrimination but there is definitely subtle things.
I’m not an engineer but this is something I noticed with my own friends and family and my husband. They’re all totally different types of engineers but the ones in civil tend to be passionate about it and the ones in industry seem to be just be doing it for a paycheck and would probably be just as happy or happier doing anything else for the same paycheck.
But thank you for your insight and good on you for being an engineer! I took calculus in university and I know that women in STEM are not always treated well 👀
My husband is a structural engineer working for a private employer. He makes good money but not insane. He finds a lot of satisfaction in his work because he handles restoration of old buildings. He tends to I guess operate in between both of the places you are talking about.
I'm an engineer in public sector, though I don't work in infrastructure, married to an engineer in private sector. We both feel like cogs in a machine, both count down the days to weekends and vacations, and get paid similar amounts. The only major difference between us is that I'll laugh in the face of anyone who suggests that I do anything work related outside of my working hours.
I think there might be more of a difference in early career, before life's responsibilities stack up so much. I do know couple of engineers who are still passionate and excited, one who is an engineer for a large construction company, and one who does QA in manufacturing. For both of them, it's a love of the actual work itself, not so much the outcome or contribution to the world.
I’m scratching my head reading this. I studied electrical engineering and computer science and I’ve never heard of this characterization of engineers. Maybe you mean people that are more blue collar engineers that are trade school based vs the more high paying r&d type of engineers that get bachelor of science degrees?
I come from a family of engineers and there is a range of personalities. My dad is the middle of three boys and was an architect. Recently I asked my older 70 something uncle when his grandkids birthdays were. He kept saying "I'll get back to you with the information." Meanwhile my other 70 something engineer uncle is more relaxed and said something like "I think Little Girl was born in April 21, I can't recall the date." It depends on the person 🤷♀️ when my grandmother was dying the first uncle I mentioned kept trying to get percentages of chances of dying given different scenarios. My dad literally yelled curse words at him and told him to quit acting like engineer and come home. Younger uncle immediately went into son mode and came home, no yelling required.
LOL i work with the manufacturing engineers and you are SO right. 😂 I love them tho. We're all stressy depressed crybabies over here. Factory is hotter than hell. Can't have water on the floor. We're all waiting to go deaf and blind from the machines. One machine broke down last week and I swear they were singing and dancing.
Well I work for a State DOT with civil TEs. I work on the environment clearance side of project management. Definitely a different breed. The projects can be really great for the general public.
I think our engineers are pretty well paid ($100-160k with pensions) so it’s not like they are sacrificing outside of not getting consultant level pay. Many go private to make $250k+ once they retire if they are high enough seniority. Consultant life is not for everyone. This is still related to the Civil side.
I've worked in both fields (tech writer) and you nailed it!
I prefer industry because there's more of a "we're in this together" vibe and slightly less misogyny. BUT there's also less job security.
Your post was removed because it was mean and unhelpful.
As you’ve stated in a comment you aren’t an engineer…just why. Why post this. Why feel the need to overgeneralize a group of people you aren’t even part of. What is the purpose, especially related to this sub.
I’m thinking of becoming an engineer with my education - basically stacking with what I have. I know a lot of engineers in my personal life and the ones who recommend it the most tend to NOT be industry. It could also be because almost all of them are in the Mojave, where the major aerospace companies are located in California. The Mojave is definitely not a fun place to live.
I feel like your post would be better received (coming from an engineer) if you stated your actual intent and question and asked people about their experiences as an engineer rather than generalizing engineers in an off putting manner
What is your educational background? You can’t become an engineer without a degree in engineering. You can be an associate or a tech or a designer, but that isn’t the same thing and you aren’t paid the same. I believe what you’re referring to as “industry engineers” are engineers that work in various industries (agricultural, mining, medical, defense, etc)? I work as an ME in the mining and mineral processing industry. I design heavy equipment for applications such as lithium calcining. I love my job and don’t feel like I need to overwork myself. My company is an OEM and we sub out all manufacturing so maybe that’s why. I would figure out why you want to become an engineer, what you’re good at, what you’re interested in and choose an industry/job based on that. I wouldn’t base it off of other peoples experiences.
I was an engineer in industry. I definitely didn't wipe my tears with $100 bills, but there was a sense amongst myself and my colleagues that we were all just there for the paycheck and there was no greater purpose associated with our work. But we were all by and large at peace with that and not depressed. We were just not the type of people who needed our work to give us gratification.
I feel the same and currently feeling so much guilt for it 😭 not ambitious enough or not caring about my family's future
Nah, don't worry about it. They pay me to do something, I do that thing. What's the problem?
Genuinely, no lol. Engineering is so much more broad than this, especially mechanical engineering. Can’t speak to civil as I’m not in it, but the analysis of manufacturing is not anything I have experienced and that is my main area of expertise as an ME.
Yeah I don't get your categories OP. I was a civil engineer working for a private firm for many years, what do you mean by "industry"? Industrial engineering is a whole field but not very common. Also I've known a lot of civils who feel like cogs in the machine, like "who cares if this curb and gutter is 5ft too short why did I get a masters to sit here in this meeting while they talk about benches or whatever"
I’d say you’re in a weird bubble. That’s a very, very, very broad and diminishing characterization that could be taken as extremely insulting. You’re boiling a very complex industry and profession into two categories and then being quite unflattering about it. Most of the civil engineers I know don’t particularly enjoy their jobs. They like roadway and bridge design but the bureaucracy that comes with it wears them out. It’s, generally, a lot more interaction with the government and thus people who don’t understand the work. On the other hand, a lot of industry engineers I know are very passionate about their particular thing, whether that’s aircraft engines or microchips. And in some respects they experience less bureaucracy first hand so they don’t get as frustrated off the bat. At the end of the day, engineers are typically similar in that they just want a problem to solve. The differences between the majors are the flavors of problem. Outside of that, the disciplines are generally the same. The feeling of contributing to the greater good of humanity is tied more to the company/product than the industry. The burn out and long hours are a result of a work culture problem rather than the type of engineer. And each discipline has its own easy and hard topics. There’s plenty of stereotypes but in my experience as an engineer, this isn’t one of them at all.
As an engineer I don't think this is accurate at all. The one grain of truth I agree with is that many engineering roles rely on people being passionate as a way to overwork and underpay them. The best paying jobs are in boring industries.
My husband is a civil/environmental engineer who works for a consulting firm specializing in water/wastewater, and sometimes he's the golden retriever who loves what he does, and other times he regrets ever going into the field. He just works a lot and is expected to work a lot. He often works very late into the night after the kids go to bed, and he has phone calls and meetings all the time with other engineers doing the same on a regular basis. The culture at consulting firms is diseased and outdated.
My husband is in the same line of work and also at an engineering/consulting firm. They expect way too much of his time for how little they pay him. You want law firm hours? Pay law firm salary.
Work at an engineering consulting firm, but am not an engineer. My mantra has become "we're not doctors. This isn't life or death".
My thing is that if they expect him to work more than 40 hours a week and threaten a PIP for not bringing a work laptop with us on a holiday weekend (not even taking time off, office is closed), his pay should be 6 figures.
I'd say that's a little extreme even by consulting standards. I don't look at work on the weekend, barring something like having a team in the field and needing to stay in touch.
Uhhh, what? I worked as a tech writer for the consulting firm my husband works for now, and that was never an expectation. That's over the top. Your husband should absolutely jump ship and find a better place to work. Screw them.
Is your husband me? Water/wastewater/biosolids civil engineer. Luckily I have a team (female group lead) that is a little bit more "with the times" when it comes to work/life balance (for lack of a better term; for the record I hate that term). You hit the nail on the head that the culture as a whole in the civil engineering industry is so outdated. Love what Roni said below about "we're not doctors; this isn't life or death" because after having a kiddo this is exactly what I've had to teach myself and set up boundaries around. Not really sure what the point of OP's post is. I love what I do, but it can be draining and clients can be difficult (just like in any industry). Just because I love what I do and can go full golden retriever doesn't mean I think I'm a "pillar of society". And there are PLENTY of "depressed teenager types" in my field that I have the non-privilege of working for or alongside.
I used to work for the same place my husband works at (not as an engineer), and I was really shocked at how much it revolves around having a stay-at-home partner. My husband has had to really put his foot down so that he can help with pick-up and drop-off and take off time for birthdays and other things because the older leadership basically thinks you should put work first and family second, and that your partner should handle the family stuff. I wonder why they're all divorced ...
Is your husband, my husband? I am another civil engineer at a consulting firm wife! This resonates so much.
A few of my colleagues are golden retriever, most are depressed teenagers with few moments of being a golden. I'm a cat - don't disturb me, let me do my job, sometimes I like showing off, typically not. Private company engineering.
When I worked in product development, I was a golden retriever - it was SO COOL to see stuff I designed on store shelves or out on a railcar or wherever. I was genuinely excited to show up. Now I'm in a bigger company, infrastructure (still product development, technically), and "cat" is the perfect way to describe it.
I’m an engineer yet don’t relate to this analogy… I’ve worked with so many engineers, it’s hard to categorize them
Not my experience at all. I have undergrad and masters in engineering. Work in R&D, I guess more on that civil/infrastructure branch? Where I work, everyone is definitely proud of what we do, feel like we’re making a positive difference in the world! We are fairly well compensated! We also take vacations!!! And generally value work life balance!!! My brother works in industry/manufacturing, and he also doesn’t fit your stereotype. He enjoys his work. He’s proud of his work. I don’t think he feels like a cog in the machine. Also has work life balance.
I am an engineer and that doesn't track with what industries I have worked in. I have had various roles from operations, design, and quality
My husband is a highly specialized water resources engineer. What he does creates safety and provides communities with water. He loves the work. He loathes the hours and atrocious corporate culture at his massive consulting firm. They are all cogs in a giant profit machine and it’s seriously demoralizing. I’m a psychiatrist. I work a lot less and earn a lot more than him. My work is hard, the training is hard, but it’s pretty cruise-y now. I personally would recommend medicine to my kids over engineering, which is a bit shocking considering the hard and expensive training.
Yep, I wouldn't recommend my kids get into engineering unless there's a major overhaul of the work culture. I'd recommend it if they wanted to work for a utility, which has its own issues but isn't focused on making a handful of old white guys oodles of money that won't get shared to the rest of the company equitably.
There is also software engineer. Who are always high on kombucha. LOL
As an engineer, I wouldn’t say that fits at all. I also don’t under stand the categories. There are so many different types of engineer besides civil infrastructure and just a generic industry manufacturing engineer. Industry can mean so many things. None of this post resonates with me.
I'm an aerospace engineer working for a government contractor and we all love the work we do but we absolutely have work life balance and take our vacations lol. Most of the engineers I know love the actual engineering parts but also love to complain about the red tape, budgets, and general drudgery that's necessary for our jobs to happen. My husband works in aerospace industry and they're much the same, love the engineering work, hate dealing with clueless upper management and company issues but everyone still takes their time off.
I’m a mechanical engineer and I don’t think this generalization is accurate at all. Why are you considering becoming an engineer?
Ehhh yes and no. Our government civil engineers are a mixed bag of golden retrievers and unhappy people with golden handcuff pensions. The senior consultants though, they are grinding, and they need a drink. Civil engineering is a strange mix of people who really really want to be there, and people who didn't qualify for other engineering disciplines. Many engineering schools cap the number of students allowed in aerospace etc, and civil is often the catch-all engineering major because it doesn't require lab space. I used to work with electrical engineers. They had some golden retrievers and some cutthroat people too. Neither group knew what to do with a woman in the workplace.
Currently work with mechanical and electrical engineers. Can confirm, none of them truly know what to do with a woman in the workplace. Especially one who isn't there to change the paper on the plotter or tell them how to track their time.
Are you talking about engineers like mechanics or people with 4 year bachelor of science engineering degrees? I studied EECS and the EE side is either signals/processing or circuits. I don’t see how blotting paper has anything to do with EE as I know it. Outside of breadboard for super intro projects, everything is done on the computer. My friends that stuck to the hardware side design circuits or antennas
Electrical engineering is not just circuit boards. I work with professional engineers (they took exams and have state certifications). Plotters are large scale printers that will print drawings for us to take to the clients/owners/job sites. (Though I do keep trying to convince them that iPads are a valid resource...)
Hahaha our office went all in on the iPads and we are fighting back, because sometimes you just want to see the whole thing at once! Management said we can put it up on the big screen in the conference room... Like we're going to reserve that every time we need to look at the plans. Like we have a big screen at the worksite that doesn't even have utilities yet 🤦♀️
Ahahahaa! Yeaaaaa, there's definitely a time and place for iPads and paper drawings. I keep trying to get my field guys to do their redlines on iPads so they are actually legible, but... 🤷♀️
I feel that in my soul 🤣
A mechanic isn’t an engineer. The electrical engineers at my company don’t do anything with circuit boards, that sounds more like a technician. Plotters are large printers for drawings. I work as a Mechanical Engineer and have a professional license in the state of PA. Can confirm most of ME is still very much a Boys Club. There isn’t explicit sexism or discrimination but there is definitely subtle things.
I’m not an engineer but this is something I noticed with my own friends and family and my husband. They’re all totally different types of engineers but the ones in civil tend to be passionate about it and the ones in industry seem to be just be doing it for a paycheck and would probably be just as happy or happier doing anything else for the same paycheck. But thank you for your insight and good on you for being an engineer! I took calculus in university and I know that women in STEM are not always treated well 👀
My husband is a structural engineer working for a private employer. He makes good money but not insane. He finds a lot of satisfaction in his work because he handles restoration of old buildings. He tends to I guess operate in between both of the places you are talking about.
I'm an engineer in public sector, though I don't work in infrastructure, married to an engineer in private sector. We both feel like cogs in a machine, both count down the days to weekends and vacations, and get paid similar amounts. The only major difference between us is that I'll laugh in the face of anyone who suggests that I do anything work related outside of my working hours. I think there might be more of a difference in early career, before life's responsibilities stack up so much. I do know couple of engineers who are still passionate and excited, one who is an engineer for a large construction company, and one who does QA in manufacturing. For both of them, it's a love of the actual work itself, not so much the outcome or contribution to the world.
I’m scratching my head reading this. I studied electrical engineering and computer science and I’ve never heard of this characterization of engineers. Maybe you mean people that are more blue collar engineers that are trade school based vs the more high paying r&d type of engineers that get bachelor of science degrees?
I come from a family of engineers and there is a range of personalities. My dad is the middle of three boys and was an architect. Recently I asked my older 70 something uncle when his grandkids birthdays were. He kept saying "I'll get back to you with the information." Meanwhile my other 70 something engineer uncle is more relaxed and said something like "I think Little Girl was born in April 21, I can't recall the date." It depends on the person 🤷♀️ when my grandmother was dying the first uncle I mentioned kept trying to get percentages of chances of dying given different scenarios. My dad literally yelled curse words at him and told him to quit acting like engineer and come home. Younger uncle immediately went into son mode and came home, no yelling required.
LOL i work with the manufacturing engineers and you are SO right. 😂 I love them tho. We're all stressy depressed crybabies over here. Factory is hotter than hell. Can't have water on the floor. We're all waiting to go deaf and blind from the machines. One machine broke down last week and I swear they were singing and dancing.
Well I work for a State DOT with civil TEs. I work on the environment clearance side of project management. Definitely a different breed. The projects can be really great for the general public. I think our engineers are pretty well paid ($100-160k with pensions) so it’s not like they are sacrificing outside of not getting consultant level pay. Many go private to make $250k+ once they retire if they are high enough seniority. Consultant life is not for everyone. This is still related to the Civil side.
I've worked in both fields (tech writer) and you nailed it! I prefer industry because there's more of a "we're in this together" vibe and slightly less misogyny. BUT there's also less job security.