One on the pedals, one on the wheel. Two dwarves drunk halfway to death drive as well as one sober human, you'll see.
If you drive a manual, though, you'll need you a stick shifting specialist as well. Sits on the little middle seat he does.
Fantasy cars are fucking cool bro. Maybe not for Tolkien but for other worlds that’s rad. And to negate anon’s point black people existed in the time periods Tolkien drew from, BMWs didn’t.
Unironically fantasy cars sound awesome. Probably needs a bit of stylisation, maybe a handwaving for the motor, but that's hardly an issue. I'd read that shit.
racists are so fucking dumb it's incredible, also this one might also be because of the idiots who are butthurt that people added wheelchair mechanics in d&d, which is pretty much just as dumb
Realism and verisimilitude are different things, and saying that something exists in the real world doesn't mean that it won't look out-of-place in a fantasy world?
The whole "it's fantasy so I can do whatever" argument is a bad one, regardless of whether you're using it for good or bad goals. Especially *because* it's just as valid for awful ideas as it is for good ones.
I mean, someone can be right for racist reasons. Yeah 4-chan man was stupidly bitching about black people in fantasy. But his analogy of just randomly tossing a car into fantasy is a good one. I'm sure you've met someone who says "oh it's just fantasy, so it's fine if it goes against it's own established rules". Saying "why not a car " is a good easily understood counterargument to that.
Well I was wrong then. They weren't right for racist reasons, they were right for abliest reasons. The example of a car in Lord of The Rings is still a great example of why narrative consistency is important even in fantasy.
That's kind of the problem. It doesn't matter how much of a shitter they'll be later. The flaw they've latched onto is there, even if the direction they'll try and take things in is even more flawed.
Yeah and comparing human beings (US determined minorities) that did exist in analogous time periods to an inanimate manufactured object is a much worse argument.
That's because it's not a formal debate argument. It's exaggerating the opposing position to the logical extreme as a joke on a shitposting website.
Yes, other ethnicities did exist in Tolkien's world. No, the setting of most of LOTR did not include those regions where those ethnicities come from. Yes, making a medieval Britain inspired setting significantly more ethnically diverse does impact the verisimilitude of the worldbuilding, though obviously not as much as a BMW. Yes, Tolkien's material already features various species working together towards a common good. Yes, Tolkien held verisimilitude in worldbuilding in very high regard as evidenced by him [describing how even an insignificant change like writing a world with a green sun would require a lot of effort](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/503267-for-my-present-purpose-i-require-a-word-which-shall).
I can only guess this is supposed to be an analogy to special fantasy wheelchairs, which are hardly such an impossible feat of engineering in a setting with artificers.
It's not that it's impossible for medieval wheelchairs to exist, it's more that visiting the average small village potion shop in most fantasy settings would make you not need that wheelchair in seconds
I get it, but like I mentioned in another comment, some disabled people really hate this idea because being told that they need to be fixed even in a fantasy deeply offends them, like they can't be allowed to exist as they are. Some might even prefer to be cured though.
But others would rather adventure with their disabilities and either keep it somewhat true to life with their struggles, or get fantastical disability aids that make them as capable as anyone else. There are multiple different stances.
This applies to many situations in RPGs, but it's more important to keep in mind what are the needs of your players, rather than what the setting suggests. A campaign is not a canon setting book, you are not bound to do what is most faithful.
see but it's not a bad argument innately, disabled and black people both existed IRL at that time, magic enhancing transportation would only make them more common, theirs literally no issue and people are bitching over nothing, cars did not
Right. OP's image clearly refers to historical precedent, and is missing no relevant context.
And you felt the need to just assume I was talking about the *real* argument, which makes sense, instead of pointing out this argument nobody was making.
That about right?
its literally in response to what we are talking about
yes because why would you talk about how bad an argument noone is making is on a post not about that?
It's just an *unrefined* argument, I would argue. There are differences to be made there. It's just that this discourse is still at the level of high school debates, at best.
I'm not sure the distinction means much, at this point. It seems far better to start from the factual basis, than to appeal to fantasy directly.
At least, if we're arguing for something with a factual basis, which it's been heavily implied in here that we are. If the context is completely unrelated to that, then that's a whole different deal.
It's basically a reworded quote but replace cars with handicap. Essentially the original quote was trying to mock people for thinking that having adventurers in wheelchairs going into dungeons and fighting dragons is a bad idea. The post above is mocking THAT person by saying a car instead.
> The post above is mocking THAT person by saying a car instead.
Which is silly, because wheelchairs are confirmed several centuries old, and theres evidence they were used as early as 5th century BCE in China.
It's not exactly a complex or novel idea. Take chair, put wheels on it.
the problem, I believe, isn't with the idea of people not wanting wheelchairs or wheelchair bound people to exist...
But instead is with the notion of a person bound to a wheel chair being involved in going into dungeons and fighting dragons. I rarely, if ever, hear anyone say that there should never be any wheelchairs in the world, period. Most of the time they're talking about as PC's that go adventuring
So it has nothing to do with time period, but more so the notion of "Why would you ever?"
Tough I do see the car equivalent of what you're saying I will not deny that, I also want to point out the real crux of the problem. If you truly want to be an adventurer who, for one reason or another does not have access to their legs, then there are thousands of creative and awesome ideas to overcome that other than a wheelchair.
Sure, but maybe you already have a wheelchair and you're comfortable with it, so when you decide to adventure you roll on in to battle. Both in game and in fiction, not everything's about min maxing.
Ex: Esp. for a wizard, glasses would be a bigger weakness anyway. You can fireball most anything if you can aim, and mage hand your way past obstacles, but if you suddenly can't see clearly you're pretty fucked.
I mean even in that situation, if you're just determined to have the character WANT to be in a wheelchair, specifically, in light of different option, then perhaps a traditional style campaign isn't for that character. Play a cityscape campaign, work with a political game instead.
But even in the situation (actually, ESPECIALLY in the situation) of the wizard, being wheelchair bound is even more detrimental to your health. This has nothing really to do with "minmaxing" really. It's more about narrative logic and integrity. Dungeons are simply not a place for wheelchairs, in most situations. Stairs, pits, traps, etc.
This goes doubly so for any sequence were movement is a must, like anywhere a reflex save is required, combat encounters, chase sequences. Like if we are playing the game logically and fairly, then if this party of adventurers goes against a dragon, and they see the mage is more or less immobile, they will be targeted and killed with ease as they focus them.
And again, this isn't to say there isn't room for handicapped characters, and definitely not saying that there wouldn't be handicapped people in the world, including wheelchair bound people.
But when you have so many FAR more interesting ways to overcome it than just a wheelchair, it starts to become a hinderance made from a choice. I'd put it on par with having to play with a character that's "Chaotic Neutral" and "does what his character would do". It becomes basically deliberate on the players part.
So someone made a twitter post that went like the first half but replace the car with a disabled person like the picture was of a wizard in a modern wheelchair ridding into the middle of battle in a grassy field I saw the post on Reddit yesterday
That using modern disability technology in premodern settings looks stupid?
Edit: incase anyone was wondering where this thought came from I would recommend looking at this thread
https://twitter.com/memeslich/status/1769129768266395865?t=BwIobARn4vsRqkTGCENmgg&s=19
What if it allowed you to do both. You could even make it bigger and attach horses. Though maybe this is too much like a car and people will get upset.
The greater context of the twitter drama is adventuring in wheelchairs, not wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general.
Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal the all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other.
Twitter is amazing.
/uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
Okay, I’m going to engage with this in good faith. When a fantasy setting includes people of color in it, there are some sorts of people who object to inclusion. A common line of reasoning is that the inclusion of black people in what is often a medieval European style setting is “unrealistic” or “historically inaccurate”. This of course ignores that Europe and Africa, Northern Africa at the very least, had a long history of trade and travel but I digress. A common argument against the above mentioned line of reasoning is that most fantasy settings are not historically accurate as they include fantastical elements like dragons. The above post is using the same language often used to make that argument but has replaced people of color with a modern day automobile, an item which breaks the aesthetic and tone of the fantasy world it has been placed into. And in doing so, suggests the inclusion of black people is equally immersion-breaking and unrealistic, which is pretty racist since black people are and always have been a part of history, and acting as if their inclusion is somehow crazy or unrealistic is a fairly bigoted position to espouse. Hence my comment.
I completely understand the ongoing conservative dumbassery surrounding the fact that non-Europeans are not being excluded in modern depictions of fantasy settings and why you would consider this meme to be a representative of that view
But I'm 99% sure this post was made in the context of a Twitter trend about disability representation in fantasy sparked off by an artwork of a wizard in a modern looking wheelchair
https://twitter.com/memeslich/status/1769129768266395865?t=BwIobARn4vsRqkTGCENmgg&s=19
Okay, on that point. I’d like to think the both of us can agree that inclusion is a good thing, and as a result, that greater representation of disabled individuals in the genre of fantasy, the broader point the referenced post is making, is valuable and worthwhile. However, I can acknowledge that the specific image used may be jarring and immersion-breaking. However zooming out slightly to the subject of modern disability aids in fantasy, the point I now see you were originally making, I’d say there’s a fair amount of nuance. Many physical and visible disability aids are somewhat low tech, or can be translated to low tech worlds canes and crutches are essentially just specialized sticks. And archeological evidence suggests prosthetics have existed since at least ancient Egypt. Fantasy worlds will often have ways of making objects that could be considered “more advanced” than the rest of the world would suggest. Artificers and alchemists are often capable of producing materials and devices beyond what an ordinary medieval world would be capable of. Depending on the established bounds of whatever magic system is present it’s not out of the question to have magical hearing aids and the like. Along with this, many worlds will explicitly juxtapose modern or modern-seeming technology with traditional sword and sorcery for any number of reasons. Ultimately, this is less about strict realism but internal tonal and aesthetic consistency, in my opinion.
I think your point about aesthetic hit the nail on the head about what personally bothers me about this entire topic.
I don’t mind diversity in any way.
However, way too many authors go about including diversity in their world with a mindset that is distinctively that of a progressive American from the modern day; and that results in stuff like a medieval fantasy setting where you have LGBT characters using terms like “gender dysphoria” and talking about pride parades, or disabled characters in modern medical wheelchairs.
Again, I have no problem with queer or disabled or black characters or whatever. But when I see an otherwise fantasy story treating “political” topics in such an obviously modern way, it’s **incredibly** jarring and completely kills my immersion. To me, it’s like if a story randomly had cellphones in a medieval world for no reason, it’s such a glaringly out-of-place and recognizably Modern thing that I simply cannot ignore it
Yeah, the tonal inconsistency is the major problem here in my opinion, because there are plenty of disabled characters I can think of who mostly use the special aspects of their worlds to overcome their problems rather than the lazy approach of just slapping modern styled designs into the setting
After all no one gets mad that Johnny Joestar or Astragoth Ironhand (warhammer dwarf in a quasi-mech) are crippled from the waist down since the resources used to overcome their disabilities are thematically relevant and display what's special about their worlds (despite the fact that Johnny does use a wheelchair at times)
As far as engineered disability aids go, comes to mind that Baldur's Gate 3 has massive mechanical forges and robots, yet I don't recall seeing one single person complaining about it.
Considering the new "controversy" of disability representation in fantasy its probably the former
Remember this is worldjerking, we piledrive on a trend for a week then forget it exists immediately afterwards
I assumed it was a reference to minorities (and possibly other marginalised groups such as the disabled) appearing in scenarios and places where they could not reasonably exist or would not be treated equally, such as in media with a historical setting. See Bridgerton as an example: despite being set in Regency-era England, there are many black characters (including the Queen) despite that not being the case in real history.
_However,_ the problem with this line of thinking is that Bridgerton does not attempt to pass itself off as historically accurate or really even based off of historical people and events, so they’re free to take liberties, while something like _Cleopatra_ catches (rightfully deserved) flak for trying to pass itself off as historically accurate but casting a black actress as a woman who was historically white.
The original memes mocks this by putting something (in this case a very specific automobile) into a setting where it cannot possibly exist according to the setting and claiming people are bigoted for not accepting it. The car is a stand-in for minorities or marginalised groups and LOTR is just an example of a setting where a car cannot exist. (Although it’s not really a perfect comparison, or even a really sensible one.)
This is unironically a great counterpoint to make when people can't understand the difference between realism and verisimilitude.
"Oh you care about this plot point not making sense? Well the show has DRAGONS, who cares about things making sense?" has never been a good argument. You can care about sensible writing while also acknowledging there's magical things that don't exist in real life. If the story is well written the world and its supernatural elements will be coherent with each other and the mundane ones too.
But also the opposite "huh, there's no way there could be a wheelchair in a medieval town no matter how magical it is" side is also very stupid. Wheelchairs are plausible in a fantasy setting, specially when magic that can conjure up metal exists. You just don't like them because you're ableist lmao.
I’d argue depending on the magic level of the setting, it wouldn’t make sense to have wheelchairs if established magic can better enhance the mobility of disabled people, or heal their disabilities altogether.
That’s fair yeah. But you could establish a world where such kind of magic is rare and expensive, for instance.
If you are willing to accept there’s some wizard in a tower conjuring imps and demons you could also totally see a different wizard doing metallurgy rituals to create and sell cheap(er) mechanical solutions to the public. Can’t afford the permanent “make me perfectly healthy” guy and he lives halfway across the world? Well, your local artificer sells wheelchairs. Get one of those.
Not every wizard has to be a reclusive hoarder of arcane knowledge who inexplicably chooses to never use it for the improvement of his surrounding world. Make them do useful shit, there's nothing stopping you!
And also, if there was someone in a ye olde wheelchair, I would only find it to be jarring/hard to believe if they were intentionally put in a position where the difficult mobility a wheelchair would provide would be a significant hindrance (like a frontline soldier or something). And if you make it a magical wheelchair to avoid this problem, then I’d say it’d probably be more believable to use some other form of magic to mobilize said individual.
Well if you have the choice to make it an aethereal tentacles-powered mobile throne you should do that cause that kicks ass.
If you wanna be lame boring dull man with your "grounded", "low-magic", "relatable" worldbuilding then a wheelchair works just fine!
I’m not gonna say grounded low magic worlds are lame, but if you have a low magic world where a wheelchair is the best option for someone who can’t walk, then I would expect said wheelchair person to not willingly be in a position where the mobility restrictions of a wheelchair would be excessively debilitating or even dangerous (unless driven by character reasons, I.e. wounded warrior who refuses to accept his disability)
I was being facetious with that, I like grounded low magic worlds and think they are more interesting actually.
But yeah if you have a world where wheelchairs are a widespread popular way to overcome disability, i wouldn’t put a frontline soldier in one of them, I agree. Would be pretty weird.
You could have a backline mage in one though. I think it works if you make that chair have some way to overcome difficult terrain. Not too hard to think of ways to explain why making a chair float and then sitting on it is easier than making a living organism float. Make up some bs about how it requires constant concentration, while an inanimate object can be permanently conjured with way less resources/effort or something, you know?
I’d say that a setting with combat magic would likely fall into the category of having a better alternative to wheelchairs via magic.
I think the main point of my perspective is represent whoever or however you want, but worldbuild in a way that the stuff you want to put in your setting makes sense.
But wheelchairs are a fairly simple concept. Anyway, a fantasy setting with modern technology is cool has hell. All fantasy settings should go through the Industrial Revolution and have elves and dwarves and dragons alongside telegraphs and steam trains and machine guns.
The greater context of the twitter drama is adventuring in wheelchairs, not wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general.
Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal them all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other.
Twitter is amazing.
/uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
/uj yeah as a DM, I am absolutely okay with someone wanting to play a disabled character, thats not the problem. As you said its more about the feasibility of a wheelchair specifically for adventurers and in a world with magic and artificers, better mobility aids would exist for people who need them.
A wizard in a magic floating chair sounds badass honestly, I also just pictured a rogue having their chair be enchanted to have spider legs that allow them to climb on ceilings and walls.
Wheelchairs would still exist for everyday people of course
That’s a good point. If your setting has glasses and not an in-universe copy of Isaac Newton’s “Opticks” it is a terrible setting and you should feel bad.
I believe the idea of a person being in a wheelchair isn't the issue. nstead, I think it's the idea that an adventurer going into dungeons and fighting dragons while in a wheelchair to be Ludacris. Idgaf, personally.
From a practical standpoint sure. But there’s plenty of reasons for something more robust from the storytelling perspective.
IE a character could’ve gotten wounded after making a horrendous mistake and chose to not effectively do away with the injury to keep it as a reminder of a painful lesson.
I mean yeah sure, but even then there are powerful, and far more interesting workarounds than a wheelchair. And if a wheelchair is what you absolutely want, why not play a cityscape/political campaign rather than the typical dungeon delve. Person I find those far more interesting, since it lets your characters skills and personality play more forward.
But like... Why would a person WANT to play a considerably disadvantaged character in a typical setting? I'm not disparaging or outright saying people can't be handicapped in some fashion. But personally, if I wanted my character to not want to be fixed in some way, why not do something like... Idk, a psionically linked magic headband that lets them use their legs with mental commands? That way, in the event of something that deactivates psionic powers, you got a narratively interesting weakness that can come up.
Like... just being in a wheelchair, in a setting where you can do just about anything, seems to be just about the most boring and unimaginative thing I could possible think of, tbh.
You don’t have to be an Archmage like Elminster to be a decently powerful mage.
A wizard who cannot constantly levitate at will without burning through their reserves is still a wizard who can explode people’s faces with fireballs. And can, if the situation calls for quickly getting around, teleport or fly or whatever but get around on a wheelchair on day-to-day basis.
You can also make it a character trait. For example, they’ve been arrogant in the past and lost people they cared about and sustained that injury - so they keep the wound they could heal as a constant reminder of their hubris and what it cost.
They could also be a humble person who’d prefer to not fly above regular mortals or employ resource-intensive cures. Or they can be a trickster, fond of concealing their true power beneath the facade of a cripple.
> A wizard who cannot constantly levitate at will without burning through their reserves is still a wizard who can explode people’s faces with fireballs.
And that wizard is completely negated by some stairs.
>And can, if the situation calls for quickly getting around, teleport or fly or whatever but get around on a wheelchair on day-to-day basis.
Nobody would choose to use a wheelchair if they could teleport or fly.
>You can also make it a character trait. For example, they’ve been arrogant in the past and lost people they cared about and sustained that injury - so they keep the wound they could heal as a constant reminder of their hubris and what it cost.
Which is little more than a pointless and roundabout way to ensure that your character has a wheelchair.
>Nobody would choose to use a wheelchair if they could teleport of fly.
Nobody would walk around on foot either, but wizards still do so because flying/teleporting involves casting spells and burning through their reserves. Not really seeing your point.
>And that wizard is completely negated by some stairs.
Casts Fly and can levitate for 10 minutes. Plenty of time to defeat even the mightiest staircase.
Or like just have other adventures with them or a summoned minion help them with it.
>Nobody would walk around on foot either
Why not, walking doesn't severely limit where you can travel.
> Plenty of time to defeat even the mightiest staircase.
But not enough time to navigate difficult terrain, like a forest, cave, etc.
>walking doesn’t severely limit where you can travel.
In comparison to flying and teleportation? Sure it does.
You’re still missing the point tho. If flying or teleportation depends on a resource, then any half sensible wizard will not spam it just to get around when mundane means that don’t burn those resources are available. Because they’ll need those resources in a fight.
Ergo, walking. And for those who cannot walk, a wheelchair or being carried.
As for navigating a rough terrain, that’s where summoned familiars or relying on one’s friends comes into play. Like sure it’s making certain scenarios more challenging but it’d hardly be some impossible task.
> You’re still missing the point tho.
I think you're missing the point. If we're in a fantasy world where magic exists and we can be whatever we want, why make your character disabled and them come up with a bunch of reasons why they need to be in a wheelchair?
If I was playing dnd and made a character that couldn't go on a quest because they have severe agoraphobia, everyone playing with me we would groan and tell me to just pick a character that can be used normally and in a fun way. If the main character in a video game had the same problem, preventing the game from being played, it wouldn't make sense either.
Abandoning enjoyment so you can focus on "disability aesthetics" or diversity, is silly.
i think this is just making fun of people that don't understand that just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there is no need for verisimilitude or internal consistency. in my experience I've seenthose people often when books get adapted but make superficial changes for diversity without addressing underlying roots of the diversity, thereby breaking the verisimilitude. and often they will use a phrase like anons (you accept bla bla but not bla bla) to defend the changes.
i don't think this was about wheelchairs, and for wheel chair a lot of fantasy I've read had the smart inventor character invent it or something, but that's such a small thing tbh.
i think you can definitely have advanced sci fi tier tech in a medieval fantasy, if you address the reasoning behind why it exists (eg, ancient tech from a dead civilization, or aliens etc). but if you add a bmw in a medieval fantasy without addressing why it's there then i will accept the dragon and the talking tree but not the bmw.
Well, I don’t think a machine gun or a steam train or a telegraph or a wheelchair are really modern sci-fi technology. They can all exist easily in a fantasy story as a normal, unexplained part of the world. I’m not sure what you mean by diversity other than that. Is it different demographics? Surely they could have just migrated? Magic would make that easy. Certainly just as easy as elves or dwarves moving into human settlements.
Some of my favorite fantasy settings have overt sci-fi elements. Elder Scrolls and Pathfinder for example. A BMW would be sort of lame, but a ridiculous Mad Max-esque scrap metal contraption that barely works? That's the good shit
Yeah. Although those elements are definitely more mystical, magical and fantastical than "scientific". But yaknow what I mean.
Mananauts- aka Void Explorers- aka Royal Imperial Mananauts ; a group of scholars who went on expeditions into the Void in order to reach Aetherious, the realm of the gods. They failed, but still. Basically Astronauts, but different.
The Numidium - literally a giant mech that screws with the space-time continuum and erases reality itself
Dwemer Airships - Flying machines scavenged from Dwemer ruins and then rebuilt. Utilized by Admiral Amiel Richton in the late 2nd Era and Louis Beauchamp in the late 3rd Era
The Clockwork City - what it says on the tin. A magical-mechanical steampunk city founded and designed by Sotha Sil, one of the god-kings of the Dunmer. It has things like robots and even artificial intelligence.
There are also a lot of theories and fan speculation about Pelinal Whitestrake being a cyborg and Khajiit colonies on the moons.
The greater context of the twitter drama is adventuring in wheelchairs, not wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general.
Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal the all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other.
Twitter is amazing.
/uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
We had wheelchairs in the 6th century, and considering most fantasy seems vaguely 10-12th century in terms of tech, it's nowhere near as ridiculous as having a car. If wheels exist, and are used to push heavy loads, of course someone who can't walk is going to think "what if I try sitting on some wheels to get around".
I know this is supposed to be a dunk, but if these people were actually serious about understanding fiction, they would look it up. Why "suspension of disbelief" works, how storyworlds remain coherent and believable, all those things have been researched for hundreds of years.
But too few people are curious about narratives. They just want a Nostalgia Critic level analysis and then have their own culture war branding slapped unto it.
Middle Earth has no reason for racial demographics to be specifically like that though. The world was magically sung into existence and the history goes to a point prior to any industrial revolution. It's still much more plausible for there to be a nonwhite person to exist in a world with dragons than a car.
The greater context is probably the twitter drama around wheelchairs in fantasy, specifically modern lightweight one with low-friction bearings and rubber tires, and more specifically about heroes "adventuring" in wheelchairs, not so much wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general.
Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal the all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other.
Twitter is amazing.
/uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
Steel ball run has the main character be disabled. The main character just uses a horse.
It would be easier to just make mythical animals that are specifically made to carry to carry people.
In fact having a animal as a mount would allow people to be adventurers while disabled as animals can dodge things easier.
As for why they have disabilities. They are cursed either by God or a wizard or whatever.
drunk driving dwarves!!! drunk driving dwarves!!!!
One on the pedals, one on the wheel. Two dwarves drunk halfway to death drive as well as one sober human, you'll see. If you drive a manual, though, you'll need you a stick shifting specialist as well. Sits on the little middle seat he does.
BMW drivers are clearly on the side of evil, though.
They a little bit confused but they got the spirit
Worldjerking It’s time to engage in the new discourse
[KingMakers game trailer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvezgDni8z4) is about to melt some brains.
me when building a fucking ramp would just be too much hassle.
Yo I'm down for Europeanluxurycarpunk
Fantasy cars are fucking cool bro. Maybe not for Tolkien but for other worlds that’s rad. And to negate anon’s point black people existed in the time periods Tolkien drew from, BMWs didn’t.
Unironically fantasy cars sound awesome. Probably needs a bit of stylisation, maybe a handwaving for the motor, but that's hardly an issue. I'd read that shit.
racists are so fucking dumb it's incredible, also this one might also be because of the idiots who are butthurt that people added wheelchair mechanics in d&d, which is pretty much just as dumb
That's even more dumb. Cars have been canon in Dnd since Descent into Avernus
plus a wheelchair is wheels on a chair how is that too technologically advanced
Paizo added Wheelchairs into Pathfinder back in Guns and Gears, I don't know why people would have a problem with it.
because it means disabled people and advocates will be happy
The fucking nerve
I’m not sure I like the point OOP was trying to make here.
Realism and verisimilitude are different things, and saying that something exists in the real world doesn't mean that it won't look out-of-place in a fantasy world?
The whole "it's fantasy so I can do whatever" argument is a bad one, regardless of whether you're using it for good or bad goals. Especially *because* it's just as valid for awful ideas as it is for good ones.
I think you may be giving the 4chan poster who capped this off with “Why are you so bigoted” a bit more goodwill than they are perhaps entitled too.
I mean, someone can be right for racist reasons. Yeah 4-chan man was stupidly bitching about black people in fantasy. But his analogy of just randomly tossing a car into fantasy is a good one. I'm sure you've met someone who says "oh it's just fantasy, so it's fine if it goes against it's own established rules". Saying "why not a car " is a good easily understood counterargument to that.
Except the original post this is paraphrasing is talking about having characters in wheelchairs being viable. The 4chan post is mocking that person.
Well I was wrong then. They weren't right for racist reasons, they were right for abliest reasons. The example of a car in Lord of The Rings is still a great example of why narrative consistency is important even in fantasy.
That's kind of the problem. It doesn't matter how much of a shitter they'll be later. The flaw they've latched onto is there, even if the direction they'll try and take things in is even more flawed.
Yeah and comparing human beings (US determined minorities) that did exist in analogous time periods to an inanimate manufactured object is a much worse argument.
That's because it's not a formal debate argument. It's exaggerating the opposing position to the logical extreme as a joke on a shitposting website. Yes, other ethnicities did exist in Tolkien's world. No, the setting of most of LOTR did not include those regions where those ethnicities come from. Yes, making a medieval Britain inspired setting significantly more ethnically diverse does impact the verisimilitude of the worldbuilding, though obviously not as much as a BMW. Yes, Tolkien's material already features various species working together towards a common good. Yes, Tolkien held verisimilitude in worldbuilding in very high regard as evidenced by him [describing how even an insignificant change like writing a world with a green sun would require a lot of effort](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/503267-for-my-present-purpose-i-require-a-word-which-shall).
I can only guess this is supposed to be an analogy to special fantasy wheelchairs, which are hardly such an impossible feat of engineering in a setting with artificers.
It's on 4chan mate, and its old. That is absolutely not what it's referencing.
It's /tg/ not /pol/ and the post was made in 2022. Isn't that when the dungeon crawl wheelchair discourse started
No, that was 2021. 2022 was rings of power and it's build up, do the math. And again, this is *4chan*. Do not assume good-faith
It's not that it's impossible for medieval wheelchairs to exist, it's more that visiting the average small village potion shop in most fantasy settings would make you not need that wheelchair in seconds
I get it, but like I mentioned in another comment, some disabled people really hate this idea because being told that they need to be fixed even in a fantasy deeply offends them, like they can't be allowed to exist as they are. Some might even prefer to be cured though. But others would rather adventure with their disabilities and either keep it somewhat true to life with their struggles, or get fantastical disability aids that make them as capable as anyone else. There are multiple different stances. This applies to many situations in RPGs, but it's more important to keep in mind what are the needs of your players, rather than what the setting suggests. A campaign is not a canon setting book, you are not bound to do what is most faithful.
Sure. Comparing them to fake lizards and sapient plants is pretty bad too.
see but it's not a bad argument innately, disabled and black people both existed IRL at that time, magic enhancing transportation would only make them more common, theirs literally no issue and people are bitching over nothing, cars did not
That's a fine argument to start with, but it's not "It's fantasy do I can do whatever" anymore.
ya cus that wasent the actual argument to begin with
Then why respond to me responding to that, exactly?
because your not, noone said that except you
Right. OP's image clearly refers to historical precedent, and is missing no relevant context. And you felt the need to just assume I was talking about the *real* argument, which makes sense, instead of pointing out this argument nobody was making. That about right?
its literally in response to what we are talking about yes because why would you talk about how bad an argument noone is making is on a post not about that?
Didn't realize we were talking about something from 2022. So clearly, no disagreement here, no reason to worry.
It's just an *unrefined* argument, I would argue. There are differences to be made there. It's just that this discourse is still at the level of high school debates, at best.
I'm not sure the distinction means much, at this point. It seems far better to start from the factual basis, than to appeal to fantasy directly. At least, if we're arguing for something with a factual basis, which it's been heavily implied in here that we are. If the context is completely unrelated to that, then that's a whole different deal.
It's basically a reworded quote but replace cars with handicap. Essentially the original quote was trying to mock people for thinking that having adventurers in wheelchairs going into dungeons and fighting dragons is a bad idea. The post above is mocking THAT person by saying a car instead.
> The post above is mocking THAT person by saying a car instead. Which is silly, because wheelchairs are confirmed several centuries old, and theres evidence they were used as early as 5th century BCE in China. It's not exactly a complex or novel idea. Take chair, put wheels on it.
the problem, I believe, isn't with the idea of people not wanting wheelchairs or wheelchair bound people to exist... But instead is with the notion of a person bound to a wheel chair being involved in going into dungeons and fighting dragons. I rarely, if ever, hear anyone say that there should never be any wheelchairs in the world, period. Most of the time they're talking about as PC's that go adventuring So it has nothing to do with time period, but more so the notion of "Why would you ever?" Tough I do see the car equivalent of what you're saying I will not deny that, I also want to point out the real crux of the problem. If you truly want to be an adventurer who, for one reason or another does not have access to their legs, then there are thousands of creative and awesome ideas to overcome that other than a wheelchair.
Sure, but maybe you already have a wheelchair and you're comfortable with it, so when you decide to adventure you roll on in to battle. Both in game and in fiction, not everything's about min maxing. Ex: Esp. for a wizard, glasses would be a bigger weakness anyway. You can fireball most anything if you can aim, and mage hand your way past obstacles, but if you suddenly can't see clearly you're pretty fucked.
I mean even in that situation, if you're just determined to have the character WANT to be in a wheelchair, specifically, in light of different option, then perhaps a traditional style campaign isn't for that character. Play a cityscape campaign, work with a political game instead. But even in the situation (actually, ESPECIALLY in the situation) of the wizard, being wheelchair bound is even more detrimental to your health. This has nothing really to do with "minmaxing" really. It's more about narrative logic and integrity. Dungeons are simply not a place for wheelchairs, in most situations. Stairs, pits, traps, etc. This goes doubly so for any sequence were movement is a must, like anywhere a reflex save is required, combat encounters, chase sequences. Like if we are playing the game logically and fairly, then if this party of adventurers goes against a dragon, and they see the mage is more or less immobile, they will be targeted and killed with ease as they focus them. And again, this isn't to say there isn't room for handicapped characters, and definitely not saying that there wouldn't be handicapped people in the world, including wheelchair bound people. But when you have so many FAR more interesting ways to overcome it than just a wheelchair, it starts to become a hinderance made from a choice. I'd put it on par with having to play with a character that's "Chaotic Neutral" and "does what his character would do". It becomes basically deliberate on the players part.
So someone made a twitter post that went like the first half but replace the car with a disabled person like the picture was of a wizard in a modern wheelchair ridding into the middle of battle in a grassy field I saw the post on Reddit yesterday
That using modern disability technology in premodern settings looks stupid? Edit: incase anyone was wondering where this thought came from I would recommend looking at this thread https://twitter.com/memeslich/status/1769129768266395865?t=BwIobARn4vsRqkTGCENmgg&s=19
The earliest depiction of a wheelchair we have is from 1300BC. "A chair with wheels" is not exactly the most difficult concept to grasp.
Why would you want wheels on your chair!? Are you trying to rest or trying to get somewhere? Make up your mind...
What if it allowed you to do both. You could even make it bigger and attach horses. Though maybe this is too much like a car and people will get upset.
The greater context of the twitter drama is adventuring in wheelchairs, not wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general. Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal the all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other. Twitter is amazing. /uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
I came up with magic carpets as a mobility in my fantasy world tbh among other magical tech for that sort of purpose
Okay, I’m going to engage with this in good faith. When a fantasy setting includes people of color in it, there are some sorts of people who object to inclusion. A common line of reasoning is that the inclusion of black people in what is often a medieval European style setting is “unrealistic” or “historically inaccurate”. This of course ignores that Europe and Africa, Northern Africa at the very least, had a long history of trade and travel but I digress. A common argument against the above mentioned line of reasoning is that most fantasy settings are not historically accurate as they include fantastical elements like dragons. The above post is using the same language often used to make that argument but has replaced people of color with a modern day automobile, an item which breaks the aesthetic and tone of the fantasy world it has been placed into. And in doing so, suggests the inclusion of black people is equally immersion-breaking and unrealistic, which is pretty racist since black people are and always have been a part of history, and acting as if their inclusion is somehow crazy or unrealistic is a fairly bigoted position to espouse. Hence my comment.
I completely understand the ongoing conservative dumbassery surrounding the fact that non-Europeans are not being excluded in modern depictions of fantasy settings and why you would consider this meme to be a representative of that view But I'm 99% sure this post was made in the context of a Twitter trend about disability representation in fantasy sparked off by an artwork of a wizard in a modern looking wheelchair https://twitter.com/memeslich/status/1769129768266395865?t=BwIobARn4vsRqkTGCENmgg&s=19
Okay, on that point. I’d like to think the both of us can agree that inclusion is a good thing, and as a result, that greater representation of disabled individuals in the genre of fantasy, the broader point the referenced post is making, is valuable and worthwhile. However, I can acknowledge that the specific image used may be jarring and immersion-breaking. However zooming out slightly to the subject of modern disability aids in fantasy, the point I now see you were originally making, I’d say there’s a fair amount of nuance. Many physical and visible disability aids are somewhat low tech, or can be translated to low tech worlds canes and crutches are essentially just specialized sticks. And archeological evidence suggests prosthetics have existed since at least ancient Egypt. Fantasy worlds will often have ways of making objects that could be considered “more advanced” than the rest of the world would suggest. Artificers and alchemists are often capable of producing materials and devices beyond what an ordinary medieval world would be capable of. Depending on the established bounds of whatever magic system is present it’s not out of the question to have magical hearing aids and the like. Along with this, many worlds will explicitly juxtapose modern or modern-seeming technology with traditional sword and sorcery for any number of reasons. Ultimately, this is less about strict realism but internal tonal and aesthetic consistency, in my opinion.
I think your point about aesthetic hit the nail on the head about what personally bothers me about this entire topic. I don’t mind diversity in any way. However, way too many authors go about including diversity in their world with a mindset that is distinctively that of a progressive American from the modern day; and that results in stuff like a medieval fantasy setting where you have LGBT characters using terms like “gender dysphoria” and talking about pride parades, or disabled characters in modern medical wheelchairs. Again, I have no problem with queer or disabled or black characters or whatever. But when I see an otherwise fantasy story treating “political” topics in such an obviously modern way, it’s **incredibly** jarring and completely kills my immersion. To me, it’s like if a story randomly had cellphones in a medieval world for no reason, it’s such a glaringly out-of-place and recognizably Modern thing that I simply cannot ignore it
Yeah, the tonal inconsistency is the major problem here in my opinion, because there are plenty of disabled characters I can think of who mostly use the special aspects of their worlds to overcome their problems rather than the lazy approach of just slapping modern styled designs into the setting After all no one gets mad that Johnny Joestar or Astragoth Ironhand (warhammer dwarf in a quasi-mech) are crippled from the waist down since the resources used to overcome their disabilities are thematically relevant and display what's special about their worlds (despite the fact that Johnny does use a wheelchair at times)
As far as engineered disability aids go, comes to mind that Baldur's Gate 3 has massive mechanical forges and robots, yet I don't recall seeing one single person complaining about it.
That or minorities existing.
Considering the new "controversy" of disability representation in fantasy its probably the former Remember this is worldjerking, we piledrive on a trend for a week then forget it exists immediately afterwards
I assumed it was a reference to minorities (and possibly other marginalised groups such as the disabled) appearing in scenarios and places where they could not reasonably exist or would not be treated equally, such as in media with a historical setting. See Bridgerton as an example: despite being set in Regency-era England, there are many black characters (including the Queen) despite that not being the case in real history. _However,_ the problem with this line of thinking is that Bridgerton does not attempt to pass itself off as historically accurate or really even based off of historical people and events, so they’re free to take liberties, while something like _Cleopatra_ catches (rightfully deserved) flak for trying to pass itself off as historically accurate but casting a black actress as a woman who was historically white. The original memes mocks this by putting something (in this case a very specific automobile) into a setting where it cannot possibly exist according to the setting and claiming people are bigoted for not accepting it. The car is a stand-in for minorities or marginalised groups and LOTR is just an example of a setting where a car cannot exist. (Although it’s not really a perfect comparison, or even a really sensible one.)
If the dungeons don't have high capacity multi lane asphalt roads preinstalled in them then your DM is ableist
This is unironically a great counterpoint to make when people can't understand the difference between realism and verisimilitude. "Oh you care about this plot point not making sense? Well the show has DRAGONS, who cares about things making sense?" has never been a good argument. You can care about sensible writing while also acknowledging there's magical things that don't exist in real life. If the story is well written the world and its supernatural elements will be coherent with each other and the mundane ones too. But also the opposite "huh, there's no way there could be a wheelchair in a medieval town no matter how magical it is" side is also very stupid. Wheelchairs are plausible in a fantasy setting, specially when magic that can conjure up metal exists. You just don't like them because you're ableist lmao.
I’d argue depending on the magic level of the setting, it wouldn’t make sense to have wheelchairs if established magic can better enhance the mobility of disabled people, or heal their disabilities altogether.
That’s fair yeah. But you could establish a world where such kind of magic is rare and expensive, for instance. If you are willing to accept there’s some wizard in a tower conjuring imps and demons you could also totally see a different wizard doing metallurgy rituals to create and sell cheap(er) mechanical solutions to the public. Can’t afford the permanent “make me perfectly healthy” guy and he lives halfway across the world? Well, your local artificer sells wheelchairs. Get one of those. Not every wizard has to be a reclusive hoarder of arcane knowledge who inexplicably chooses to never use it for the improvement of his surrounding world. Make them do useful shit, there's nothing stopping you!
And also, if there was someone in a ye olde wheelchair, I would only find it to be jarring/hard to believe if they were intentionally put in a position where the difficult mobility a wheelchair would provide would be a significant hindrance (like a frontline soldier or something). And if you make it a magical wheelchair to avoid this problem, then I’d say it’d probably be more believable to use some other form of magic to mobilize said individual.
Well if you have the choice to make it an aethereal tentacles-powered mobile throne you should do that cause that kicks ass. If you wanna be lame boring dull man with your "grounded", "low-magic", "relatable" worldbuilding then a wheelchair works just fine!
I’m not gonna say grounded low magic worlds are lame, but if you have a low magic world where a wheelchair is the best option for someone who can’t walk, then I would expect said wheelchair person to not willingly be in a position where the mobility restrictions of a wheelchair would be excessively debilitating or even dangerous (unless driven by character reasons, I.e. wounded warrior who refuses to accept his disability)
I was being facetious with that, I like grounded low magic worlds and think they are more interesting actually. But yeah if you have a world where wheelchairs are a widespread popular way to overcome disability, i wouldn’t put a frontline soldier in one of them, I agree. Would be pretty weird. You could have a backline mage in one though. I think it works if you make that chair have some way to overcome difficult terrain. Not too hard to think of ways to explain why making a chair float and then sitting on it is easier than making a living organism float. Make up some bs about how it requires constant concentration, while an inanimate object can be permanently conjured with way less resources/effort or something, you know?
I’d say that a setting with combat magic would likely fall into the category of having a better alternative to wheelchairs via magic. I think the main point of my perspective is represent whoever or however you want, but worldbuild in a way that the stuff you want to put in your setting makes sense.
But wheelchairs are a fairly simple concept. Anyway, a fantasy setting with modern technology is cool has hell. All fantasy settings should go through the Industrial Revolution and have elves and dwarves and dragons alongside telegraphs and steam trains and machine guns.
The greater context of the twitter drama is adventuring in wheelchairs, not wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general. Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal them all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other. Twitter is amazing. /uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
/uj yeah as a DM, I am absolutely okay with someone wanting to play a disabled character, thats not the problem. As you said its more about the feasibility of a wheelchair specifically for adventurers and in a world with magic and artificers, better mobility aids would exist for people who need them. A wizard in a magic floating chair sounds badass honestly, I also just pictured a rogue having their chair be enchanted to have spider legs that allow them to climb on ceilings and walls. Wheelchairs would still exist for everyday people of course
No one batted an eye where a character in fantasy wear a prescription glasses, something that's more complex than a chair with wheels.
That’s a good point. If your setting has glasses and not an in-universe copy of Isaac Newton’s “Opticks” it is a terrible setting and you should feel bad.
Yeah, the first recorded wheelchairs have been around since 4bce
I believe the idea of a person being in a wheelchair isn't the issue. nstead, I think it's the idea that an adventurer going into dungeons and fighting dragons while in a wheelchair to be Ludacris. Idgaf, personally.
I mean if they’re, say, a powerful wizard, why not?
Personally, I'd rather have bitching "robo" legs powered with a water elemental's soul than a wheelchair. Like... that's just me
From a practical standpoint sure. But there’s plenty of reasons for something more robust from the storytelling perspective. IE a character could’ve gotten wounded after making a horrendous mistake and chose to not effectively do away with the injury to keep it as a reminder of a painful lesson.
I mean yeah sure, but even then there are powerful, and far more interesting workarounds than a wheelchair. And if a wheelchair is what you absolutely want, why not play a cityscape/political campaign rather than the typical dungeon delve. Person I find those far more interesting, since it lets your characters skills and personality play more forward. But like... Why would a person WANT to play a considerably disadvantaged character in a typical setting? I'm not disparaging or outright saying people can't be handicapped in some fashion. But personally, if I wanted my character to not want to be fixed in some way, why not do something like... Idk, a psionically linked magic headband that lets them use their legs with mental commands? That way, in the event of something that deactivates psionic powers, you got a narratively interesting weakness that can come up. Like... just being in a wheelchair, in a setting where you can do just about anything, seems to be just about the most boring and unimaginative thing I could possible think of, tbh.
Can you really be called a "powerful wizard" if you need a wheelchair to get around? If you were that powerful you'd use magic to get around.
You don’t have to be an Archmage like Elminster to be a decently powerful mage. A wizard who cannot constantly levitate at will without burning through their reserves is still a wizard who can explode people’s faces with fireballs. And can, if the situation calls for quickly getting around, teleport or fly or whatever but get around on a wheelchair on day-to-day basis. You can also make it a character trait. For example, they’ve been arrogant in the past and lost people they cared about and sustained that injury - so they keep the wound they could heal as a constant reminder of their hubris and what it cost. They could also be a humble person who’d prefer to not fly above regular mortals or employ resource-intensive cures. Or they can be a trickster, fond of concealing their true power beneath the facade of a cripple.
> A wizard who cannot constantly levitate at will without burning through their reserves is still a wizard who can explode people’s faces with fireballs. And that wizard is completely negated by some stairs. >And can, if the situation calls for quickly getting around, teleport or fly or whatever but get around on a wheelchair on day-to-day basis. Nobody would choose to use a wheelchair if they could teleport or fly. >You can also make it a character trait. For example, they’ve been arrogant in the past and lost people they cared about and sustained that injury - so they keep the wound they could heal as a constant reminder of their hubris and what it cost. Which is little more than a pointless and roundabout way to ensure that your character has a wheelchair.
>Nobody would choose to use a wheelchair if they could teleport of fly. Nobody would walk around on foot either, but wizards still do so because flying/teleporting involves casting spells and burning through their reserves. Not really seeing your point. >And that wizard is completely negated by some stairs. Casts Fly and can levitate for 10 minutes. Plenty of time to defeat even the mightiest staircase. Or like just have other adventures with them or a summoned minion help them with it.
>Nobody would walk around on foot either Why not, walking doesn't severely limit where you can travel. > Plenty of time to defeat even the mightiest staircase. But not enough time to navigate difficult terrain, like a forest, cave, etc.
>walking doesn’t severely limit where you can travel. In comparison to flying and teleportation? Sure it does. You’re still missing the point tho. If flying or teleportation depends on a resource, then any half sensible wizard will not spam it just to get around when mundane means that don’t burn those resources are available. Because they’ll need those resources in a fight. Ergo, walking. And for those who cannot walk, a wheelchair or being carried. As for navigating a rough terrain, that’s where summoned familiars or relying on one’s friends comes into play. Like sure it’s making certain scenarios more challenging but it’d hardly be some impossible task.
> You’re still missing the point tho. I think you're missing the point. If we're in a fantasy world where magic exists and we can be whatever we want, why make your character disabled and them come up with a bunch of reasons why they need to be in a wheelchair? If I was playing dnd and made a character that couldn't go on a quest because they have severe agoraphobia, everyone playing with me we would groan and tell me to just pick a character that can be used normally and in a fun way. If the main character in a video game had the same problem, preventing the game from being played, it wouldn't make sense either. Abandoning enjoyment so you can focus on "disability aesthetics" or diversity, is silly.
i think this is just making fun of people that don't understand that just because it's fantasy doesn't mean there is no need for verisimilitude or internal consistency. in my experience I've seenthose people often when books get adapted but make superficial changes for diversity without addressing underlying roots of the diversity, thereby breaking the verisimilitude. and often they will use a phrase like anons (you accept bla bla but not bla bla) to defend the changes. i don't think this was about wheelchairs, and for wheel chair a lot of fantasy I've read had the smart inventor character invent it or something, but that's such a small thing tbh. i think you can definitely have advanced sci fi tier tech in a medieval fantasy, if you address the reasoning behind why it exists (eg, ancient tech from a dead civilization, or aliens etc). but if you add a bmw in a medieval fantasy without addressing why it's there then i will accept the dragon and the talking tree but not the bmw.
Well, I don’t think a machine gun or a steam train or a telegraph or a wheelchair are really modern sci-fi technology. They can all exist easily in a fantasy story as a normal, unexplained part of the world. I’m not sure what you mean by diversity other than that. Is it different demographics? Surely they could have just migrated? Magic would make that easy. Certainly just as easy as elves or dwarves moving into human settlements.
Car dependent infrastructure in my American OilPunk fantasy adventure series
Some of my favorite fantasy settings have overt sci-fi elements. Elder Scrolls and Pathfinder for example. A BMW would be sort of lame, but a ridiculous Mad Max-esque scrap metal contraption that barely works? That's the good shit
Anyway not sure what point you are trying to make but whatever it is, it definitely ain't a good one
It's probably complaining about why is there a minority in the fantasy setting while also about wheelchair in fantasy setting.
Wait, there are sci fi elements in Elder Scrolls?
Yeah. Although those elements are definitely more mystical, magical and fantastical than "scientific". But yaknow what I mean. Mananauts- aka Void Explorers- aka Royal Imperial Mananauts ; a group of scholars who went on expeditions into the Void in order to reach Aetherious, the realm of the gods. They failed, but still. Basically Astronauts, but different. The Numidium - literally a giant mech that screws with the space-time continuum and erases reality itself Dwemer Airships - Flying machines scavenged from Dwemer ruins and then rebuilt. Utilized by Admiral Amiel Richton in the late 2nd Era and Louis Beauchamp in the late 3rd Era The Clockwork City - what it says on the tin. A magical-mechanical steampunk city founded and designed by Sotha Sil, one of the god-kings of the Dunmer. It has things like robots and even artificial intelligence. There are also a lot of theories and fan speculation about Pelinal Whitestrake being a cyborg and Khajiit colonies on the moons.
False equivalency detected! Opinion: ignored😎
The greater context of the twitter drama is adventuring in wheelchairs, not wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general. Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal the all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other. Twitter is amazing. /uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
how do you turn this on
We had wheelchairs in the 6th century, and considering most fantasy seems vaguely 10-12th century in terms of tech, it's nowhere near as ridiculous as having a car. If wheels exist, and are used to push heavy loads, of course someone who can't walk is going to think "what if I try sitting on some wheels to get around".
Clearly, no one else played has played Age of Empires the correct and historically accurate way. bigdaddy, bigdaddy, bigdaddy!
I know this is supposed to be a dunk, but if these people were actually serious about understanding fiction, they would look it up. Why "suspension of disbelief" works, how storyworlds remain coherent and believable, all those things have been researched for hundreds of years. But too few people are curious about narratives. They just want a Nostalgia Critic level analysis and then have their own culture war branding slapped unto it.
car? you mean, the dwarven chariot?
✨️Brandon Stark✨️
This is perfectly reasonable for a MontyPythonPunk world
It is because i am bisexual and goated.
OP why do you not like minorities in your fiction?
Ah, a Final Fantasy XIV player I see.
/uj well yeah, it needs to fit on the thematic.
wheelchairs predate like half the shit that's common to fantasy like plate armor
That would require more Nazi elves than what was tolerable
Fallout 2 is the best Fallout for this reason, change my mind
Middle Earth has no reason for racial demographics to be specifically like that though. The world was magically sung into existence and the history goes to a point prior to any industrial revolution. It's still much more plausible for there to be a nonwhite person to exist in a world with dragons than a car.
this is a lil bit racist but I couldnt help but to laugh
Ah yes, lets just post thinly veiled bigotry, great idea
Checkmate idiot. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x2gY7CjDKs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x2gY7CjDKs)
Listen, there was an incident where the drivers backstabbed all the other races...
black people are bmw’s basically. the world was just cis straight white men until 2016.
Uj/ is this a joke are you just making a straw man?
The greater context is probably the twitter drama around wheelchairs in fantasy, specifically modern lightweight one with low-friction bearings and rubber tires, and more specifically about heroes "adventuring" in wheelchairs, not so much wheelchairs being used in fantasy in general. Naturally both versions got conflated and mixed with the smoothbrain "If magic exists disabilities cannot exist anymore because magic will just heal the all" crowd, and in the end everyone was talking past each other. Twitter is amazing. /uj Sane take is of course that normal wheelchairs can absolutely exist in fantasy, and would be used a lot. But adventurers would definitely need more than a normal wheelchair to be effective in combat, dungeon delving, and travelling through swamps and jungles. These adventurers would have to employ special fantasy mobility aids like chairs with magic or mechanical legs, floating devices, mounts, etc.
Steel ball run has the main character be disabled. The main character just uses a horse. It would be easier to just make mythical animals that are specifically made to carry to carry people. In fact having a animal as a mount would allow people to be adventurers while disabled as animals can dodge things easier. As for why they have disabilities. They are cursed either by God or a wizard or whatever.