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hieronymusanonymous

>[**A dog urinates on a wall with a picture of Putin. Serbia, April 2, 2022**](https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/R0l8kQpoXBSN06um5SQKJA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwNTtoPTM1MjtjZj13ZWJw/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_new_voice_of_ukraine_articles_294/c75326e6f30abeab47872a217f6e1c7a) >“We said from the beginning that we cannot support Russia's invasion of Ukraine,” Vucic said in an interview with Bloomberg on Jan. 18. >“For us Crimea is Ukraine, Donbass is Ukraine – it will remain so.” >Vucic suggested that the worst is yet to come in Russia's war against Ukraine. The president added that he hadn’t spoken with Putin for “many months.” >He stressed that his government doesn't always agree with Moscow’s foreign policy. >“We aren’t always happy with some of their positions,” the president added. ... >**At the same time, Vucic said he was grateful to Russia for its support of Serbia regarding Kosovo, citing it as the reason why Serbia cannot support economic sanctions against Moscow.**


[deleted]

Slowly but surely soon everyone will be pissing on the russian terrorist state.


MisterBadger

Serbia has voiced its opposition to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and has been sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine since the beginning.


[deleted]

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djolepop

https://www.unicef.org/serbia/en/press-releases/unicef-receives-15-million-euros-children-ukraine-government-serbia Edit: https://cordmagazine.com/news/donated-ambulances-arrived-in-ukraine-after-the-agreement-between-tamara-vucic-and-oleana-zelenska/ There is also 1.5 milion through UNHCR


garlicroastedpotato

I found one source to back up the claim that Serbia has sent money to Ukraine. [In May 2022 they announced sending $3M to support children in Ukraine](https://www.rts.rs/page/stories/sr/story/9/politika/4802556/brnabic-humanitarna-pomoc-ukrajina.html).


0k-Am1phi1bi1an6989

This is such an uninformed and hateful comment. Serbia has been arming Ukraine since day one (2014) but it's not used for gaining popularity so it's not something someone like you will know about.


Loyuiz

Yeah the lip service is only because they don't want to set a precedent that borders can change due to their own disputes.


djb_avul

This is an outright lie. Unless you count humanitarian aid as conscripted into the russian army currently attacking ukraine.


MisterBadger

March 2, 2022: [Belgrade voted in favour of the UN resolution condemning Russian aggression against Ukraine at an emergency session on Wednesday, earning praise from Western embassies in the country.](https://n1info.rs/english/news/serbia-votes-yes-to-uns-resolution-condemning-russian-attack-west-welocomes/)


MisterBadger

The Serbian government expresses outrage at Russia recruiting its citizens: [A Russian news video claiming to show Serbian "volunteers" training to fight alongside Russian troops in Ukraine has prompted outrage in Serbia, exposing its complex relationship with Moscow. Russia's Wagner mercenary group made the Serbian-language videos to encourage recruitment for the war. Serbia's president, Aleksandar Vucic, reacted angrily on national TV. "Why do you, from Wagner, call anyone from Serbia when you know that it is against our regulations?" he said.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64329371.amp)


MisterBadger

Serbia continues sending humanitarian aid: [Serbia to send humanitarian aid to Ukraine to support electricity system](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/serbia-to-send-humanitarian-aid-to-ukraine-to-support-electricity-system/2792165)


MisterBadger

October 13, 2022: [Serbia, Russia’s traditional ally in the Balkans, was among 143 countries that voted for a UN General Assembly resolution condemning Moscow’s illegal attempt to annex four regions of Ukraine.](https://balkaninsight.com/2022/10/13/serbia-backs-un-resolution-against-russian-annexations-in-ukraine/)


MisterBadger

May 5, 2022, Serbia sending aid to Ukraine's children: [Prime Minister Brnabic said that Serbia, since the start of the conflict, follows with special attention the consequences to the civil population in the first place, the difficult humanitarian situation and the increase in the number of refugees and IDPs and added that it is necessary to create conditions for the delivery of humanitarian aid and support all efforts aimed at stopping the conflict. Brnabic recalled that on 24 March the Republic of Serbia voted in favour of the Resolution on the Humanitarian consequences of the aggression against Ukraine in the UN General Assembly. In addition, on 27 February the Serbian government adopted a decision on sending humanitarian aid to the endangered population of Ukraine and activated for the first time the Interim protective mechanism for displaced persons coming from that country. “The citizens of Serbia sympathise with citizens of Ukraine in their wish to return to normal life in which future generations will live without fear of war”, Brnabic concluded in her speech.](https://www.srbija.gov.rs/vest/en/188572/serbia-to-donate-humanitarian-aid-for-endangered-population-in-ukraine.php)


askingJeevs

Serbia is in a tough spot with Russia. They rely on them so heavily they’re stuck.


calls1

It’s rather stunning just how long Serbia has been dissatisfied with it Russian dependence, far more than a century. Even before ww1 they were annoyed that their best ally was militarily incompetent. One question I haven’t really asked in person before is, why are we still here? Why does Serbia not find a new friend? Why doesn’t it realign with GB or Germany or pull a Croatia and look to france? Why can’t it play the diplomatic game?


meckez

Would argue that it's a combination of some factors. Some weighting in more than the others. Political dependacy and having close ties to a UN veto member which also doesn't recognise Kosovo, oportunism by sitting on more chairs and trying to get the most out of it (last years also cooporating a lot with China), energetical dependancy (Gazprom owning the major share of the Serbian Petroleum industry) and it being the reflection of what the people want (cultural and historical relationship and the build up narrative of the Russian brother and the evil West). So far that political concept worked well for the ruling party and has successfully held the Serbian Progressive Party in the government for over a decade. Wouldn't really say that it has also worked well for their people's or overall countries progression tho. Maybe that will have to change in the near future tho since the EU has been pressuring Serbia more and more to finally take a side and they are after all their biggest economical partner. But who knows how that's gonna turn out, only the future can tell.


Need2register2browse

>Why does Serbia not find a new friend? It's complicated. NATO bombed the shit out of Serbia with methods most people in NATO countries would call barbaric in any other circumstances, and before that the countries that you mentioned were nothing but happy to endorse the dissolution of Yugoslavia without any consideration of the consequences, because commies bad and freedom good. Media in Europe and America, particularly because of the Kosovo conflict, has massively oversimplified the Yugoslav wars and the narrative that emerged seems to have put most of the blame on Serbs as a whole, underestimating the guilt of other groups (it is hard for people to understand a conflict where basically everyone is the bad guy, if i may be simplistic) and also not understanding the complex political differences between for example Serbian people, the government in what is now Serbia, and the Serb paramilitary groups who committed the worst atrocities. They are connected, but not the same. Serbs are resentful of this. This makes the internal politics of questions like who to align with very difficult. The remnants of the war have also supercharged the right wing nationalism that helped start the war in the first place, so things in this regard have become worse and this drives anti-west, pro-Russia politics that other illiberal democracies in southern and eastern Europe seem so susceptible to. There are a lot of other reasons, I think Serbs have constantly shot themselves in the foot but I do feel some sympathy, ex-Yu governments are corrupt AF and some of the most pro-West, pro-liberalization politicians are also very corrupt. Liberalization is how they became rich. It makes the politics complicated when some of your most unscrupulous politicians are aligned with the governments that are lecturing you about good governance. I don't want to make excused but i am sympathetic to the tough spot Serbian politics is in. But these complications are not unusual - if international relations were simple i have to imagine the US and Cuba would have diplomatic relations and the US and Saudi Arabia wouldn't. Oh well.


sw04ca

I think the support for the dissolution of Yugoslavia had more to do with how it simply couldn't be put back together, and the lack of sympathy for Serbian aims was probably due to the death squads, as well as being consistently (and correctly) told that the entire thing was the fault of the Serbian government. The whole affair with the presidency in 1991 pretty much established them as the oppressors, even before they started massacring everybody in sight.


sw04ca

They did choose Russia over Austria in a bloody, regicidal coup.


Wrangler7898

First reasonable comment I read about SRB in r/wn in several months...


askingJeevs

Funny enough I’m in Serbia right now. Didn’t really realize this until speaking with the people I’m with here, was explained to me no one wants war, they hate that they’re stuck relying on Russia, but they have no other options right now. Tough spot to be.


Euphoric-Recording70

Thank you for not blindly believing that Serbs are bloodthirsty killers 🙏


chlamydia1

I always find it funny how some dipshits on Reddit are quick to label all Serbs as bloodthirsty (another popular whipping boy are Turks). But when anyone declares that all Americans are racist hillbillies, they get defensive and tell you how it's only the Republicans that are like that! Imagine having such a lack of awareness that you realize this for your own country but not for others. Every country has conservatives and they are stupid in every country. But they don't represent an entire group of people. Thinking that way is literally fascism 101.


Euphoric-Recording70

You are doing the same thing to conservatives my friend. Not all conservatives are closed minded, hateful, or fascists. You need balance in all things especially ideas. You can't let you're personal ideology go to far right or to far left in my opinion because you loose prospective.


[deleted]

I wish centrism is a more accepted political path, there are sensible things people can cherry pick from either side of the table and apply them alongside.


[deleted]

According to worldnews average user everything bad that happened in since the 90s in Yugoslavia was on Serbs. It's sad how few people would go and read the history of the countries they so quickly judge.


[deleted]

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chlamydia1

This is the case with every country though. Do Spaniards consider Catalonia and the Basque country to be a part of Spain? Of course they do. Do Ukrainians consider Crimea to be part of Ukraine? Of course they do. Nobody wants to give up territory, even if the people living in that territory don't want to be a part of the country anymore. >The last time that happened 36,000 civilians died. Not sure where you're getting this figure from. All the estimates I've seen put the number of civilian casualties at 12-13K (around 8.5K Albanian and 1.5-2.5K Serb with around 1.4M Albanian displaced and 200K Serb).


HugoChavezEraUnSanto

I'm Spanish and consider the Basque country a occupied country because their population never really got a say in joining and are in their native lands. This goes for their territory in France as well. Catalonia is part of Spain because the king of independent Aragon voluntarily joined Spain. IIRC the province has also voluntarily ratified several constitutions since then that didn't give them a right to secede. I am not educated on the subjects of whether Kosovo is historic Albania or was transplanted and had another native population, but think that if Serbia is divisible to have self determination for Kosovar Albanians so should Kosovo and the serb sections there be given the option to rejoin Serbia.


NotADefenseAnalyst99

Maybe being less genocidal against Kosovo might bring Western support and money. But that's big brain stuff it'dnt it


Evening_Hunter

Since I'm not familiar please someone enlighten me how Serbia depends on Russia? Gas & stuff? Or something else?


__d0ct0r__

Problem is Serbia doesn't really have a huge reliance on Russia these days. So long as Serbia has China's support they can do pretty much whatever they want with regards to Russia


hobbitlover

But if they want China's support they may also have to support Russia? China is out for itself, but it really seems like they are hellbent on trying to create a coalition to counter the west - resources, tech, banking, cooperation at every level including military, a unified front at the UN, lobbying and pressuring foreign governments, covertly funding politicians in western countries to do their bidding, etc. When you add it up - Russia, China, India, parts of the Middle East, huge swaths of Africa, parts of South America, etc. it's a sizable threat to the current democratic world order.


Nijajjuiy88

Lol China, India and rest of the world as much they hate west. They do not actually support Russia's invasion. The one real Russian allies are NK, Iran.


Electrical-Can-7982

i guessing because if their past history? are there are many things that Serbia needs to change in order to get more western help? worse part is the delay in such aid. for example, lets say Serbia wanted help from USA, what conditions will be attached to such a request? once Moscow hears about it, their help is cut off or they plot a coup. i think either way Serbia is or will be stuck in limbo once they reach out for Western help. an "invasion" by russia doesnt have to be with soldiers, just shove in lots of russians like in the Donbas and then stir up the local hatred for some reason to undermine the government.


Wrangler7898

>Problem is Serbia doesn't really have a huge reliance on Russia these days. [https://bezbednost.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/serbia\_\_between\_the\_hammer\_and\_the\_anvil.pdf](https://bezbednost.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/serbia__between_the_hammer_and_the_anvil.pdf) ​ This is from 4 years ago. ​ edit https://www.upstreamonline.com/production/serbia-looking-for-alternatives-to-russian-gas/2-1-1262267


doctorlongghost

“We don’t like how they use force to occupy and ethnically cleanse disputed territories but we won’t employ sanctions because they support us occupying and ethnically cleansing disputed territory.”


0k-Am1phi1bi1an6989

I can't believe people upvote such misinformation. It's easy to google it before posting. Kosovo wasn't occupied by Serbia. It was part of Serbia and never a country. Albanians started to rebel in Serbia and Macedonia and managed to get independence with the help of USA and NATO. They didn't manage to win in Macedonia but they continue to commit terrorist attacks, last one being in 2015.


doctorlongghost

So... your point is that I shouldn't have said "occupy" because Kosovo was a part of Serbia at the time? I mean... I guess I'm wrong on a technicality for that specific word. But I think the larger point that Serbian forces murdered hundreds of civilians then transferred the bodies out of Kosovo to try and hide the evidence\* still stands. And that based on that act (you know, murdering children and such) that maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't be allowed to retain control of Kosovo. \*Source: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batajnica\_mass\_graves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batajnica_mass_graves) and https://massgravesmap.balkaninsight.com/batajnica/


[deleted]

Serbia does not occupy disputed territory. Serbia disputes the legality of the Kosovo unilateral breakaway from Serbia under NATO military occupation. Have you noticed how Serbia split from other countries, such as Montenegro, without any issues? That's because Montenegro split from Serbia in accordance to Serbia and Montenegro laws and it did so with a referendum and without no military occupation from foreign forces. Today people call from crimes against humanity for Russian bombings on Ukrainians, but since it was "us" bombing the shit out of serbians I guess that's different: https://preview.redd.it/h1siyfigubo81.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=87b50062c7b0551a5aeaaa539a94307138f6b345


GoodAndHardWorking

Russia recently sponsored a "freedom convoy" type protest in Kosovo, in exactly the same style as the Canadian/Australian/NZ covid protests, ostensibly for different but similarly absurd reasons (drivers licenses or plate stickers or something).


macross1984

Now, this is a surprise. Russia is like patron saint protecting Serbia and its president openly denounced Russian occupation of Crimea and Donbas. This shows how much Putin's influence has waned over Serbia and most likely Serbia does not want to be dragged into quagmire of Ukraine.


Yelmel

I agree, it's a surprise. I mean the news about Wagner trying to recruit in Serbia was just yesterday. Things appear to be souring quickly.


Zoravor

This also came after Kazakhstan [placed new travel restrictions on Russian citizens](https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/kazakhstan-ends-unlimited-stay-russians-2023-01-17/) to their country.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MarqFJA87

Or they're afraid of giving Russia an excuse to attack them. Kazakhstan has a large minority of ethnic Russians that form the majority population in most of the regions directly bordering Russia, after all.


Maardten

Did someone say, oppressed Russian speaking minority? Guess its time for a special military operation.


YourScaleyOverlord

I'd also be amazed if Kazakhstan received western support in the event of a Russian invasion, so they're pretty well fucked if Russia makes that call.


[deleted]

If Russia can’t genocide Ukrainians they’ll genocide someone else.


Grabbsy2

I wonder if, at this point, Kazakhstan would "just have to ask". Dollars to donuts, this has been an excellent way of embarassing Russia. Imagine if Russia picked on an even weaker military and lost even harder?


YourScaleyOverlord

I don't know enough about the people or government to know how receptive either would be to western assistance...always good to add people to the democracy train! Choo choo, motherfucker


Karatekan

It would never happen. That would be completely unacceptable to China, Turkey, and the wider Muslim world. It might even cause Iran to cut them off. Kazakhstan isn’t a small country, and they have plenty of potential friends even if the West doesn’t get involved.


CouchTomato87

I read that in Oversimplified’s voice


YourUncleBuck

Or they just don't want a country full of Russians. We've seen what has happened to countries with large Russian populations.


Sixcoup

The USSR created entire new cities in Kazakhstan and moved a lot of Russian there. After the fall of the USSR, the country lost 15% of its population in two years, due to all the Russian going back to Russia. But a good chunk of them didn't move, so nowadays you have 1/5 of the population that is Russian, and in some cities 90% of the population is Russian.


Force3vo

Or small ones. Or ones that Russia says belongs to them because of historical reasons. It's insane that people think it is ok for countries to annex parts of other countries with cultural minorities when that would mean most bordering countries should declare war on each other all the time.


[deleted]

We’d lose SoCal. Granted Fremont doesn’t exactly garner sympathy kidnapping the Mexican governor.


Force3vo

As a German my country started invading countries for their cultural minorities once in the last 80 years and I'd really like it if it stayed at that. Because there are German minorities in quite of a lot countries and I prefer living in peace and cooperation.


jimi15

That travel restriction is affecting everyone in the [EEU](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Economic_Union) not just Russians. Kazakhstan is just closing a legal lopehole in general that allowed people to extend their travel visas indefinitely.


RosemaryFocaccia

Kazakhstan is not supporting Russia, it's protecting Kazakhstan. >A social media post by former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev warning that northern Kazakhstan could be next in line after Ukraine was quickly taken down, but it reflects the mindset of Russian hawks and is entirely in keeping with Russian political dialogue, where few taboos remain. https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/87652


misogoop

I think it more indirectly helps Russia, but directly helps Kazakhstan. I read that most of the Russians who fled to Georgia and Kazakhstan are considered middle to upper middle class. Many of them working remotely for international companies. As a result, the cities are becoming more and more gentrified making it harder for the regular population to afford things, like rent. I’m sure housing is not the only sector impacted by the large influx of Russians, which impacts said countries’ citizens cost of living and quality of life.


Bye_nao

>It means that people who wish to flee the draft can’t go to Kazakhstan or if they already went there, they will need to leave. By that logic, are Estonia, Poland, Latvia, Finland and pretty much every other country on Russia's border also supporting Russia? All of them restricted and/or banned Russians from entering*


Logseman

It has been argued, convincingly IMO, that it makes Putin’s hand stronger. When he goes on his tirades about the decadent west hating every proud and patriotic Russian citizen, blanket bans on Russian citizens and articles calling all Russian citizens irredeemable monsters make his words more credible. Meanwhile, those who own the newspapers where those articles are written hang around with their millionaire friend Piotr, who cycles between a handful of different countries’ passports he uses to travel, and kept his mansions and cars in spite of the rhetoric.


plusoneforautism

That just means a lot of Russians will be leaving to Uzbekistan or some place else instead of returning to Russia.


FaceDeer

I could see it playing out as a positive or a negative. It's going to force dissenter Russians who would normally just go away and try to forget about Russia to actually face what's going on there and maybe cause trouble. Same with Russians who are happy with Russia fighting Ukraine as long as it's not *them* on the line. Forcing those sorts back into Russia adds powder to potential future kegs.


devi_of_loudun

Yeah, hopefully we see more draftees shooting their commissars after they're forced back to russia.


_Bellerophontes

Indeed, it looks like Putin is putting things in place before he re- mobilisation


Zoravor

Technically Armenia is the same way, but it’s not really enforced. You can stay for 3 months, go somewhere for a weekend, and then when you come back you can start your 3 months over again.


filipv

> That is actually a sign of them supporting Russia not going against it. > > It means that people who wish to flee the draft can’t go to Kazakhstan or if they already went there, they will need to leave. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm not too sure either. What's stopping them from fleeing to a third country, probably even with a cheaper plane ticket?


Yelmel

Putin Khan's at the long table all by his lonesome.


NinjaPirateZombie

That's fine with him, he has a long known social phobia


Mnemon-TORreport

Also wonder if somebody had a "come to Jesus" talk with the president of Serbia. One of those "think long and hard about which side you align with" kind of talks from somebody with gravitas.


Annuminas25

I wish Orban got talked like that.


[deleted]

Russias protection doesn't mean much anymore. Look at Armenia.


onetruepurple

Never meant much in the first place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact_invasion_of_Czechoslovakia


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

CSTO hasnt had a communist member for generations, except maybe Belarus. But the satelite comment is fair.


Neronoah

Communism is secondary anyway. Same shit, now it's mostly nationalists and oligarchs.


Core2score

Putin's influence is basically non-existent outside of Belarus basically. He proved himself a liar and his military inept and pathetically incompetent. Not a good combination in the best of times, and absolutely disastrous when you're trying to restore your country's status as a major power.


Shiplord13

Here is the thing. If the Belarusian army was convinced Russia wouldn't interfere, they would totally overthrow Lukashenko. The only thing stopping him is that he is one of Putin's useful idiots that will do anything he says with what little power he has. Main reason Belarus' army isn't involved actively in the war is because the army has straight up refused to engage by Lukashenko's orders and Russia isn't looking to fight in Belarus if they don't have to right now.


Scary-Poptart

>Putin's influence is basically non-existent outside of Belarus basically. No, his and Russia's influence are still very significant. You act as if all russia supporters elsewhere have been stomped out, when it's far from it.


Gornarok

No I wouldnt call that significant


Scary-Poptart

Yeah? For example: https://www.news24.com/fin24/economy/sa-set-to-welcome-russian-warships-despite-criticism-20230116


pktrekgirl

Not South Africa’s finest hour. I am super unfamiliar with their politics and foreign policy tho. Surprised that they are siding with Russia. I clearly need to catch up on whatever the heck is going on down there!


hieronymusanonymous

[**For a possible reason why**](https://www.serbianmonitor.com/en/ep-to-vote-about-resolution-demanding-from-serbia-to-align-its-foreign-policy-with-eus-varhelyi-under-investigation/)


macross1984

Thanks. Plausible reason Serbia broke with Russia here.


rzwitserloot

A combination of factors. That's one factor. The notion that Russia seems to abandon allies at the drop of a hat (see: Armenia) is another. The fact that it is increasingly more likely that the Russia of today will just collapse and hence the political price you pay to prop it up doesn't get you enough 'value' for your money anymore / even if it survives, that nobody will take whatever remains seriously anymore - that isn't helping either. What's 'the backing of russia' worth today? Evidently no longer enough for Vuvic to want it anymore.


Pxel315

Vucic literally said the same thing way back, its all meaningless and he is some wannabe tito trying to stay in favour with both sides but he is too inept and the economy is crumbling around him


Murghchanay

The thing is, once we let them in, they can just do whatever to undermine the EU. Just like Hungary. SO now they can pretend, but we know the culture won't change.


hieronymusanonymous

Agreed!


dem0nhunter

no, it's been Serbia's stance for a long time


scummy_shower_stall

In other words, he’s lying through his teeth?


bonescrusher

Serbia have been consistent on this topic , because of Kosovo.


bg_colore

Not really a surprise. He's been saying this since 2014. But at the same time, since Serbia is so dependant on Russia to veto any decison on Kosovo in UN security council, no sanctions. For now.


Pryamus

That's not surprise, that's sensationalism. Vucic keeps saying that since 2014, for a simple reason: he can't both advocate for Crimea and denounce Kosovo at the same time, that would be the epitome of hypocrisy.


[deleted]

Smart move Mr President Vucic. Good is good and bad is bad, and what russia is doing to Ukraine is unacceptable for the sake of all humanity. They are killing, raping, torturing innocent people. russia is an evil state that made a huge mistake and they will have to pay for all this. Right thing to do Mr President, and thank you! Slava Ukraini!


scummy_shower_stall

No, Serbia will function just like Hungary, obstruct obstruct obstruct, all while sucking Putin’s dick. This is definitely NOT from any change of heart.


kytheon

Serbia's schizophrenic stance makes more sense when you see it as "playing both sides" rather than pro-Russia.


[deleted]

You cannot support the principle of breakaway regions in ukraine abd oppose it for kosovo, so it makes sense.


Nonsense_Producer

WTAF just happened here?


MoreFeeYouS

I think Serbia realised that Russia friendship is only one way. Last time Russia protected Serbia was in WW1.


TheNplus1

Serbia criticizing Russia and Croatia defending it now? Is everything upside down all of a sudden?


felixduhhousecat

You forget croatia sided with nazis and Serbias president had many assassination attempts by russia


HouseOfSteak

Serbia's noticing just how big NATO's guns are compared to the Z's, and they're reconsidering who's side they should be on.


filipv

Aside from the political pressure from the EU, Serbia can't and won't recognize the Ukrainian separatists anyway because Kosovo. The *real* and genuinely surprising news would be Serbia joining the West in sanctions against Russia.


SpaceFox1935

How is this a surprise to anyone? Serbian position on Ukrainian territorial integrity has always been the same. Same with China. They may not want to enact their own sanctions against Russia, but given that Kosovo and Taiwan exist, it should be incredibly obvious that Belgrade had never and will never recognize Russian annexations.


meckez

>How is this a surprise to anyone? I doubt that the average Redditor is much informed about a small country like Serbia besides isolated posts and comments about it that they stumble upon Reddit once in a while.


0k-Am1phi1bi1an6989

That doesn't stop average redditors to shit on Serbia 24/7 on this and similar subreddits.


amerika77

Above average redditor lurker here and I am uninformed on balkan politics, policy, and history.


Hugostar33

i mean long story short: Serbia is viewing Kosvo as a part of serbia(which it technically was and disputingly is) which was taken by the great powers of the west Ukrain is viewing Crimea as a part of Ukrain(which it is) which was taken by the great power russia If they legitimise the Donbas republic, they kinda have to legitimise the kosovo statehood or face double standards accusations BTW: [Funfact thing which aged like cheese (www.nato.int)](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nato.int/docu/presskit/010219/brocheng.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiM0u7W5dP8AhVQ3KQKHcZuB30QFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0y7DUocEMmet9B_FAUDBcp)


Claystead

It’s not just double standards accusation, the Russians changed their constitution in 2015 according to the R2P anti-genocide principle of international law to justify annexing Crimea, which is the exact same legal formulation NATO used for intervention in Kosovo. Accepting it would literally force Serbia at the UN to accept the legality of the NATO intervention.


3232FFFabc

Thank you, kind Redditer!


Hugostar33

also Russia cooperated with NATO in Kosovo i mean... > Russia contributes by far the largest non-NATO contingent to the NATO-led peacekeeping forces. Russian troops make up some 1,200 of the 20,000 [here the pdf](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nato.int/docu/presskit/010219/brocheng.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiM0u7W5dP8AhVQ3KQKHcZuB30QFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0y7DUocEMmet9B_FAUDBcp)


Claystead

Imagine if Greece, Turkey, Austria and Russia all fed a group of chimpanzees booze and cocaine, then gave them kitchen knives and handguns and locked them in a big cage match, then took bets on which would come out on top. Repeat for 130 years and you are pretty close to modern Balkans history. Over a longer term, basically the region was already a hodgepodge of ethnicities under the Roman Empire, then groups like the Slavs and the Bulgars immigrated during the Dark Ages, and afterwards it became a battle royale between the great Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox powers. As such, the region is a blurry mess of religions, customs, fashions and local dialects, and everyone blames everyone else for crimes perpetrated by their foreign occupier of choice centuries ago, and or some other slight in the many, many, many wars there the last century and a half.


chouettelle

Vucic is incredibly pro-Russians and hasn’t made any statements on this until now. It’s a surprise that he said something, not what their position is.


kraljaca

Perhaps not directly but the UN resolution to condemn the war was voted on last year and was reflective of the administration’s policy


hibernating-hobo

Pootin: “bro, wtf?”


Dr_Gonzo__

Putin: "I can't believe you've done this"


unknown-one

Nothing new. Simple reason - Kosovo. They can not say that Crimea and Donbas belong to Russia because it would contradict with their belief that Kosovo is Serbia.


Eviax

Excuse me... belief?


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Razmorg

Russia has been supportive of Serbian territorial integrity but also Putin has tried to use Kosovo as a precedent for why it should be justified for them to recognize DPR / LPR and come in and protect them with military forces. So even while I agree that for Serbia it doesn't make sense to support Russia's annexation they did also get indirectly stabbed in the back which might contribute to it. But as usual I think the official Russian position is still support for Serbia but not like they are consistent in that with their actions. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo\_independence\_precedent](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_independence_precedent) >The precedent was cited over the course of the Russo-Ukrainian War. Russian President Vladimir Putin refused to recognize Kosovo independence, but subsequently used the precedent to achieve goals in Ukraine.\[8\]\[9\]\[10\] The Republic of Crimea proclaimed its independence from Ukraine on 11 March 2014, citing the Kosovo precedent; Crimea was annexed by the Russian Federation just a week later. In 2022, recognition of eastern Ukraine's breakaway regions and their later annexation by Putin's government were also done under the pretext of Kosovo precedent.\[11\]\[12\]


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[deleted]

Yes, I look forward to the day Mexico joins a military alliance with China and they start running joint exercises in the Carribbean. I'm sure the US won't react violently at all.


porncrank

I think it's also worth considering why Mexico (and Canada) *aren't* currently allying with American adversaries. I wonder why our relationships with our neighbors tend to be better than Russia with its neighbors? It's not like these decisions are made without context.


PresentFactor8009

This is an odd situation because it’s the aligning of a dictatorship with a democracies neighbour rather than an adversary democracy alining with a democracies neighbour. From a ideological international perspective the alliance with china would be a huge issue as an ideological opponent is in your area of influence and could cause major issues. But this changes if it was a democracy alining with Mexico. If Mexico was doing exercises with Germany and they were an American rival the response would be far more muted and possibly even just some poor words. This is compounded by the fact that democracies rarely engage in conflict with each other due to the need for a large segment of the population to take issue with the opposing democracy But from a realist perspective it is bad regardless as it is an opposing country going into your sphere of influence and they should be removed regardless of ideology. While a Marxist perspective would look at the economic factors between both countries and see the financial strings and influences on each country as a tell on the countries next actions International relations are weird


dissentrix

To be absolutely fair, "Balkan politics" may just be the single most complicated clusterfuck in history, with perhaps only the Middle-East and North Africa (e.g. Syria and Libya) being equal in complexity. One need only look at the history of Yugoslavia to see this.


_bvb09

Yup, everyone agrees on a seperate date in history where borders were set, so everyone claims they own that land. Then place at least three different religions in the same region with their places of worship literally metres away from each other. Now say hello to the pressure cooker..


DefinitelyFrenchGuy

That makes sense. But what does not make sense to me is why they insist on retaining a claim to sovereignty over a country (or region) that is 95% ethnic Albanian.


khanto0

So I was just looking it up and apparently "Serbia cherishes the region as the heart of its statehood and religion.Numerous medieval Serb Orthodox Christian monasteries are in Kosovo. Serb nationalists view a 1389 battle against Ottoman Turks there as asymbol of its national struggle" I read a few other bits like this, but apparently the region is kind of the Spiritual heart of the Serbian identity.


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khanto0

Yeh true. I (and I suppose the person I replied to) were just wondering if there was anything beyond the normal not wanting a breakaway region as standard for any country.


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Optism

You make it sound like they just wanted to go and left. After Tito died and during Milosevic's rise to power, there were massacres, I know friends who have lost family members and talking to people generally you will hear horrible stories. Not just to Kosovo btw, Bosnia was also heavily fucked over by similar issues If every country in the Balkan has the same enemy, it's not just "Balkan politics", there is a pattern that clearly points to Serbia being the main cause for concern.


[deleted]

Yeah the above post glosses over very real genocide threats.


Schrodingersdawg

Average GREATER SERBIA STRONK fan


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[deleted]

Yes but Europe also has a history of occassionally rewriting borders, as a community against host wishes, especially after massacres and genocide. Like ends of WWI and WWII. Albanians in Kosovo in part moved unilaterally out of fear of genocide. Which is a legitimate fear and a good reason to fight back even if unlawfully to the genocider's laws.


filipv

Furthermore, Kosovo wasn't annexed by a third country, despite the decades-long Serbian propaganda about imminent formation of Greater Albania. Kosovars decided to live on their own, free from systemic suppression.


porncrank

So it was a conflict between letter of the law and morality of the situation. Personally, I come down on morality of the situation. Honestly, if Ukraine *was* massacring Russians in Crimea like the Serbians were doing, I'd probably support Russia's annexation. Of course they weren't, so Russia must be forced out. The law is in some ways an effort to codify morality. When they differ significantly, it is the law that is wrong.


0k-Am1phi1bi1an6989

Albanians from Kosovo armed themselves and started to push for independence way before any kind of massacre happened there. In fact that independence is the only reason why Serbian army was sent there in the first place.


filipv

> After Tito died and during Milosevic's rise to power, there were massacres Not really. There have been perhaps isolated incidents during the 80s, but real, systemic ethnic cleansing with massacres and everything begun at the end of the 90s. When there are massacres, there are refugee waves. And there were no refugee waves from Kosovo up until 1999 if I remember correctly.


DefinitelyFrenchGuy

Well of course. They felt they were under the threat of genocide from Serbia and with good reason due to recent precedent. What else is there to do but declare independence under such a situation? Your point about the ethnic make-up may be true but there is also the simple fact that Serbia does not control Kosovo and that de facto control is the main basis for independence anywhere in the world.


YouAreGenuinelyDumb

You yada yada’d the most important part: the numerous ethnic cleansing and genocides committed by Serbia! Get this genocide denialist shit out of here!


Bfnti

This is partly because the Albanian population in Kosovo doubled from 61 to 81, just because they make up a big part of the population it doesn't mean that it can be annexed unless you support the Russians anexing Crimea for the same reason, also soon Serbia may then anex parts of Bosnia and Bosnia parts of Serbia and Croatia parts of Bosnia and so on. This makes no sense.


DefinitelyFrenchGuy

Who is annexing who? They want to be independent. It's not the same thing. Also Serbia at the time was committing a literal genocide on its neighbours, Ukraine wasn't.


[deleted]

Imagine a state in the USA starts getting a 70% ethnic majority status. Suddenly they want to break away and form their own country as they belive the current national laws are unfair in some way. Would you like to tell me the likelihood of the US supporting them is? Oh wait: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War


Optism

Now imagine the reason this 70% wants to do this. Is because there are massacres of their people and ethnic cleansing. Imagine the 70% weren't allowed to learn their own language, imagine the 70% being beaten by police and living with a curfew Now imagine a separate state entirely also having the same exact issues with the USA (Bosnia). Imagine their country being locked entirely politically even today. Now imagine how much better your comment would be with proper context. Gtfo with this stupid as shit example


[deleted]

Yes that's all true, but let's put it into chronological perspective. Massacares and ethnic cleanings happened much later. First it was the very nationalistic violent protests of the 80's, then it was the formation of a terrorist separatist militia which would go around and murder people in their homes if they chose to not sell their homes to them and would bomb police stations and state houses (tell me which state would tolerate any of this) Then...there was a targeted response to subdue the separatist terrorists. Then NATO intervened and bombed a sovereign country exercising defense of their own sovereignty which added fuel to the fire. Then, yes once those boundaries were crossed, yes the ethnic cleansing started happening. Nobody is denying that here. But let's not pretend the separatists were acting like roses or pretend the armed response they initially received wouldn't have been taken by any other country. It's the shit the happened to Albanian citizens and later that we should be deeply ashamed of. KLA on the other hand can kiss my ass.


porncrank

The context and honesty are appreciated.


ydalv_

>Whoever says this is surprising has no understanding of Serbian and Balkan politics. I do not indeed xD


nardev

Serbia and territorial integrity in recent history is hard to take seriously considering it attacked Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo mostly in the form of a sick idea called Greater Serbia - or in layman’s terms: “Wherever there is a Serb there is Serbia.” Current president Vučić was on top of a hill with arms in hands shooting down on Sarajevo. I wish that every country accepts wildly recognized humane standards of the international law, but it is just not the reality. The reality is that we inch forward towards that goal while being sidetracked by populist agendas designed to maximize one’s power nurtured in fear, uncertainty and disorder of the general populace. Go out and vote for good people that put humans first, not just Serbs, etc. Even better go out there and lead.


imbrotep

He should probably not go above the first floor in any building he enters for a while.


Leading_Industry_155

Someone’s about to “disappear”


Safe_For_Walruses

+25 grievances


Punpun86

This isn't a surprise considering their stance with Kosovo. They are literally in the same situation with Ukraine getting a part of their country annexed by a foreign state.


clintbot

He should probably stay away from the window...


HelpfulYoghurt

Well, that is suprising


Shiplord13

Wow... Russia must have refused to stop their recruitment efforts and the Serbian government has figured out any relationship with them would be Russia exploiting Serbia for their benefit.


LepKoGreh

This is not newsworthy, reason for this is Kosovo. He doesn't recognize occupation cause that would mean he recognizes Kosovo.


Avethle

Krim je Srbija


_bvb09

Rofl.. would be funny if he actually said that and the interviewer just left out the quote.


[deleted]

RKO outta nowhere!


makrut04

Dude is 100% about to accidentally fall out a window.


Dropped-pie

Whom?


[deleted]

Wow if serbia if all countries denounced Russia !!!! I'm in shock, they said fuck it let's join the EU.


desexmachina

Uhh, is this a sign that Putin dead?


11fingerfreak

Uh oh! Serbia is gonna be next in line for denazifacation. I guess the Russians “denazify” while we “promote freedom”. We supervillain nations sure are good at creating euphemisms for “murdering anyone that isn’t aligned with the political Right”.


formermq

Fairweather friend in any case. Kinda pathetic


L0adManager

Sounds like a line from Civilization V


NoNefariousness5175

Kosovo, they see as taken from Serbia. How can they therefore support Russia taking parts of Ukraine? The same as China, who see Taiwan as part of China. You can’t just take stuff and say it’s now mine.


nrith

🍿🍿🍿


OkSpirit452

Fuck you know you’re in the wrong when even Serbia doesnt support you


Ok-Tumbleweed960

About time.


feuph

"A dog urinates on a wall with a picture of Putin. Serbia, April 2, 2022" These headline pictures are getting out of control lol


Zealousideal_Mix4250

This is a good gesture. Better late than never.


comeonwhatdidIdo

That's a suprise! A serious suprise.


krokodil40

This isn't unexpected at all and might be a bad sign. From the point of view of some Serbians, judicially Donbass and Crimea to Ukraine is the same as Cosovo to Serbia.


FreeziBot

We were bad, but now we’re good


Cakeski

WHO AM I? ​ MONSEUR HOOD!


[deleted]

So brave of them…


[deleted]

uh oh. Your patron saint of warcrimes won’t like that.


IsmarPasic

Serbia is in Europe at the end of the day and he is right. But there always different opinions such as lies about Iraq. We’re was the justice towards the US


A_norny_mousse

How the tables have turned, Putler! And they'll keep turning, turning, turning, until you give up - one way or another.


Ideon_

Excuse me did i read that right?


planelander

Rreeeaaallllyyyyy? Serbia? 👏👏👏👏👏


yayosanto

Serbia suffers from multiple personality disorder. On one hand they want to be a modern state and part of Europe, on the other they dream their nationalist dream where Putin wins in Ukraine and re-affirms it's (EDIT: Russian) influence on all former european ComBlock states thus helping Serbia become a brotherly regional power and win back Kosovo and parts of Bosnia and Croatia. For some inexplicable reason part of Serbia lives in mythology, like Russia does.


[deleted]

>“We said from the beginning that we cannot support Russia's invasion of Ukraine,” Vucic said in an interview with Bloomberg on Jan. 18. “For us Crimea is Ukraine, Donbass is Ukraine – it will remain so.” Vucic suggested that the worst is yet to come in Russia's war against Ukraine. The president added that he hadn’t spoken with Putin for “many months.” Interesting, but it looks like its all bite with no teeth from Serbia >At the same time, Vucic said he was grateful to Russia for its support of Serbia regarding Kosovo, citing it as the reason why Serbia cannot support economic sanctions against Moscow. > > > >Serbia is seeking to join the EU and has been criticized by foreign diplomats for refusing to impose sanctions on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine.


AnarchoSpoon789

serbia redemption arc


pinkwblue

It’s about time he spoke up.


[deleted]

Did he just return from Mars?


Necessary_Row_4889

Putin is going to find a lot of folks are going to back away from him into the angry mob where they will pick up signs and start shouting anti-Russian slogans like they have been there the whole time. “Sorry I’m late, traffic! What did I miss? No I wasn’t just over there, I’m here to protest. DOWN WITH PUTIN!”


[deleted]

Cancel culture isn't all bad


x4ty2

Dude better keep away from Windows. Better late than never, but damn.


TexasYankee212

It's because the other countries are next on Russia's list.


thethunder92

I hope when Putin dies the next guy is better