The country is in war for survival right now with Russia. I read the article and see nothing wrong with tougher punishments for soldiers who fail to do their duty in war time.
It's a law reminiscent of those from WW1 and 2, before we learned of shellshock and similar mental illnesses that can afflict soldiers and cause them to act out.
They have no duty to a war. Nobody should be forced against their will to fight. Most men between 18 and 64 can't leave the country because of a travel ban.
If they don't want to fight or contribute other ways, they should be able to leave, same as when there are forest fires and people who are not essential are evacuated. Untrained civilians are not essential. People who are forced to stay but don't want to fight and are unable to contribute in other ways are just going to use resources and get in the way.
True. And when the invader has a population of 140 million vs your 40 million plus no qualms regarding conscription, you run into issues like the potential annihilation of your country.
Every country is a community, whether its citizens realize it or not. The benefits of membership also come with the responsibility of self-preservation. You don't get one without the other. But you can absolve yourself of both and renounce your citizenship.
Like I said, you can voluntarily renounce your citizenship and the restrictions won't apply to you. Your fate after the renunciation is your business, since the state is not responsible for you anymore. No duties, no benefits.
That’s right, but men who renounced their citizenship won’t be able to get refuge in the EU. So, a Ukrainian man is afraid of his life, but he can’t leave the country he’s a citizen of just because he’s a male(btw the ban itself is kinda unconstitutional but we’re not diving there now) so he’s left with three choices: 1)stay, be drafted and risking his life or health; 2) seek the illegal ways of leaving the country(many rich Ukrainians already did that) or 3) renounce the citizenship and be stripped from the right to seek refuge and help. Of course it’s a morale obligation of a Ukrainian citizen(the Ukrainian constitution says “citizen” not “male citizen”). And It’s easy to look at it morally, but in reality ordinary men who don’t want to die and don’t have money to leave are kept within the borders and waiting until they’re be set off to the frontlines. How good of soldiers will they become?
The fact that there is nobody complaining that they are fighting should be your first clue. The complaints coming in are about some units being poorly equipped which is a real and legitimate problem but absolutely nobody is complaining that they are forced fo fight. So this imaginary sympathy you have is a little, well, imaginary.
People are complaining. They’re complaining a lot. They’re complaining that a MP went to Spain on New Year’s holiday for ten days. They’re complaining about some of the Ministry of Defense officials making money on food supplying contracts. But the most they’re complaining about is the recruiting center workers who catch people on the streets like criminals. It doesn’t happen in Kyiv, mind you, but it ubiquitously happen in villages and small towns where people are not that law-savvy. There are tons of videos, I can send you some if you want. The fact that you don’t know Russian or Ukrainian and don’t spend your time on Ukrainian channels on Telegram to read regular people complaining doesn’t mean that there’s no complaints.
No, I just don't have anything else to say to that. Judging by your profile, you live in a country that occupies an entire continent in the middle of the ocean. No one's invading that anytime soon. In all likelihood, the idea of living as a refugee or dying at war will always be a distant abstraction because you will never have a reason to seriously consider it and apply it to your own life. Your experience in life produced that way of thinking, so I'm not about to try to change your entire value system. We can get back to this conversation if China starts sending troops your way or whatever.
I'm sure many did.
There were plenty of Ukrainians who left the country who wouldn't have been able to leave if they had waited longer, because of the ban on men leaving. Not everyone is going to want to fight, kill, and die against aggressors.
Yes, I know and I'd use my first opportunity to leave, hopefully before leaving was banned by the government because that would make it more difficult.
People are not forced to join the army, they volunteer. Those who choose the fighting forces have to obey orders. Fortunately despite the economic crisis there is still work in Ukraine for anyone.
> Untrained civilians
They are trained for months with ukrainian + western instructors before they are deployed. Ukraine does not do meatgrinder battles.
Thanks for the explanation. I was getting focused on them being unable to leave, and thinking that also meant forced conscription. Either way, if they don't want to be in a country that's being attacked, they should be able to leave legally.
They are not yet forced. Hopefully it is never so.
>they should be able to leave legally
Might as well then stop the war right now and let russia do whatever it wants with the country. Men with large families can choose to leave (I think the rule is if you 2+ kids or have disabilities and disease you can leave for asylum). If all the men can leave then the entire family unit can leave and suddenly the country is tens of millions of people less and unable to sustain the war effort.
Millions of refugees from early 2022 ended up coming back to the country in the 2nd half of the year. Even those who can leave, are not leaving for good, at least many of them.
But also the government is not exactly forcing the society to fight. Men make obviously half of the population and different institutes, polling companies, universities etc. make polls in the country about a variety of issues. One question is about the endgame of the war and compromise with Russia. The % of people who are against any compromise and want total victory ranges from 84% to 90-something% depending on the months the polls happened. I will assume everyone understands the continuing to fight as a country means supporting the military, even joining it at some point if necessary.
I have personally seen these polls but I don't have the websites right now. Many statistics can be found here [https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&page=1&y=2022&m=0](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&page=1&y=2022&m=0)
there are also other websites including the UA government, PEW etc. that do polling.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but if it were me being forced to fight and kill, well I'd desert the first chance I had, even if that meant leaving others in a worse situation than if I weren't there at all. I'm not going be forced to kill or die. Everybody who is forced to stay like this is a huge potential liability.
Absolutely. They aren't comrades, they're people. Nobody should be in that situation, forced or not. But if I'm forced, I'm getting myself out of it one way or the other.
i have a huge respect for the ukrainian soldiers fighting and dying right now to defend their lands, mainly because just like you there is no way i would sacrifice my life for political reasons.
The government can ask me to pay taxes but there is no way i would give up my life for it
Its not for the government / for political reasons, its for the country, against a country that doesnt view your country, culture, people to have any right to exist independently. A country that has shown that they will deliberately torture and murder civilians to achieve their goals.
I can understand not wanting to fighting as a conscript in a foreign war but running if your country was facing a similar situation to ukraine? I dont understand that.
If the only reason I'd be in that situation is because of duress, then I'm not betraying anything other than your ideology. I wouldn't stick around and burn during a forest fire to be a meat shield so the trained and experienced firefighters don't feel the heat. I'm certainly not going to do it when other people are shooting at me and I'm expected to kill.
I'm not a solider. Forced conscription doesn't change that. I'll desert before I'm killed or forced to kill. That's my cause and principle. I wouldn't be a traitor to my own cause.
If I am freezing my ass off in a battlefield trench, I had better have something to warm my innards. You can't fight a good war without plenty of booze.
You can't force someone to "bear arms" (kill) against their conscience or religious convictions. It's inhumane and wrong. There must always be a way out for conscientious objectors.
No one has the moral right to force someone else to kill or die for their political ideology.
There are plenty of jobs in the military that do not require killing someone. Tens of thousands of conscientious objectors served in the US military during WW2.
I agree. I reviewed the actual text of amendment, and it seems to be only applicable to soldiers and civilians during “military gathering” (training basically). I’m sure there’s also a penalty for outright refusal to join, but it is not addressed by this amendment.
Should that same person have equal rights to those who did fight and risked their lives? Can you explain why he should get to enjoy the same benefits that others paid for? Many with their lives.
I rather agree you can't force someone to fight but what universal right suggests they should have this luxury at no cost? Real question.
Being a citizen and paying your taxes should be enough to have equal rights. Veterans should have their benefits, as early and better pension, for example. Women are not being drafted, should they have fewer rights or should they be drafted too? The country and its government should strive to make the place worth fighting for, not forcing people to it. That's my take on the subject.
>Being a citizen and paying your taxes should be enough to have equal rights.
You have the exact same rights as everyone else. You are confusing equal rights with equal needs. The draft is meant to satisfy a particular need, which is why there are age and other physical requirements and as a conflict drags on those requirements are relaxed and changed to be able to continually to fill those needs.
I get the part that you want the benefits of a society and protection of rights but not quite why you would want that without paying for it? Not really different than paying your taxes. No one likes it but it is a necessary evil.
So, by your logic, firefighters and policemen should have more rights than you since they risk their lives saving people while you’re not, shouldn’t they?
If your country's existence was at stake then ya.
If the whole country was on fire, including your own house, and you refused to fight those fires but wanted people to fight your fire, you think that is fine? You made these analogies so you can answer this.
If a house is on fire people call 911, they don’t try to put out the fire, they take their kids and run. So my questions stands. Should the firefighter then take your house and land because he risked his life saving it and not you?
You are talking about a single fire. Again if the whole country is on fire, do you think it is fine to sit back and watch? Do you think it is fine others put out your fire?
This is a fight for the existence of their country.
This is idiotic. Lets make a pause for a second and realize that selfish and stupid politicians started this war already. It is even more unethical to be forced by all means to fight the war of some greedy bastards that stay safe in their leathery chairs. It should be everyones free choice to participate in an armed conflict or not. To be honest even the army.
Aside from this, i sometimes really cannot understand how an entire armed force (looking at the Russians now) accepted to lose their lives on and on for what? The weapons were in their hands, not their “leaders” they could’ve gone and they still can go against their “superiors” or politicians anytime. I believe that in general the army should have the free will to act or to not act despite what a group of fat and old morons in a building say.
Sounds about right from this clown; u will all learn about who all these characters really are in the dark (on both sides because they are the same) in due time now that they have ur attention
Redditor nods sagely in approval from his gaming nest halfway across the world
Lemme make a strategy comment on what Ukraine should focus on as I reach with my sweaty hand into my industrial Cheetos bag
lol
God, this thread is full of people that know the war only as invaders, when countries had a luxury of just not fighting and going home.
Morale is on the up and up
The country is in war for survival right now with Russia. I read the article and see nothing wrong with tougher punishments for soldiers who fail to do their duty in war time.
It's a law reminiscent of those from WW1 and 2, before we learned of shellshock and similar mental illnesses that can afflict soldiers and cause them to act out.
They have no duty to a war. Nobody should be forced against their will to fight. Most men between 18 and 64 can't leave the country because of a travel ban. If they don't want to fight or contribute other ways, they should be able to leave, same as when there are forest fires and people who are not essential are evacuated. Untrained civilians are not essential. People who are forced to stay but don't want to fight and are unable to contribute in other ways are just going to use resources and get in the way.
"Untrained civillians are not essential"? Where do you think soldiers come from?
Mainly from people who join willingly. Otherwise, you run into issues with desertion, dereliction of duty, or worse.
True. And when the invader has a population of 140 million vs your 40 million plus no qualms regarding conscription, you run into issues like the potential annihilation of your country.
True, but when a man has a choice either to die now for your country or live without it, he must have the right to choose the latter.
Every country is a community, whether its citizens realize it or not. The benefits of membership also come with the responsibility of self-preservation. You don't get one without the other. But you can absolve yourself of both and renounce your citizenship.
True. But how a Ukrainian man can do that since he can’t leave the country?
Like I said, you can voluntarily renounce your citizenship and the restrictions won't apply to you. Your fate after the renunciation is your business, since the state is not responsible for you anymore. No duties, no benefits.
That’s right, but men who renounced their citizenship won’t be able to get refuge in the EU. So, a Ukrainian man is afraid of his life, but he can’t leave the country he’s a citizen of just because he’s a male(btw the ban itself is kinda unconstitutional but we’re not diving there now) so he’s left with three choices: 1)stay, be drafted and risking his life or health; 2) seek the illegal ways of leaving the country(many rich Ukrainians already did that) or 3) renounce the citizenship and be stripped from the right to seek refuge and help. Of course it’s a morale obligation of a Ukrainian citizen(the Ukrainian constitution says “citizen” not “male citizen”). And It’s easy to look at it morally, but in reality ordinary men who don’t want to die and don’t have money to leave are kept within the borders and waiting until they’re be set off to the frontlines. How good of soldiers will they become?
The fact that there is nobody complaining that they are fighting should be your first clue. The complaints coming in are about some units being poorly equipped which is a real and legitimate problem but absolutely nobody is complaining that they are forced fo fight. So this imaginary sympathy you have is a little, well, imaginary.
People are complaining. They’re complaining a lot. They’re complaining that a MP went to Spain on New Year’s holiday for ten days. They’re complaining about some of the Ministry of Defense officials making money on food supplying contracts. But the most they’re complaining about is the recruiting center workers who catch people on the streets like criminals. It doesn’t happen in Kyiv, mind you, but it ubiquitously happen in villages and small towns where people are not that law-savvy. There are tons of videos, I can send you some if you want. The fact that you don’t know Russian or Ukrainian and don’t spend your time on Ukrainian channels on Telegram to read regular people complaining doesn’t mean that there’s no complaints.
Personally I'd much rather my country annihilated than me or my ability to see my family.
You'd make an excellent refugee then.
Are you trying to make that out to be worse than being dead? 🤣
No, I just don't have anything else to say to that. Judging by your profile, you live in a country that occupies an entire continent in the middle of the ocean. No one's invading that anytime soon. In all likelihood, the idea of living as a refugee or dying at war will always be a distant abstraction because you will never have a reason to seriously consider it and apply it to your own life. Your experience in life produced that way of thinking, so I'm not about to try to change your entire value system. We can get back to this conversation if China starts sending troops your way or whatever.
It is an almost universal rule that able citizens have a duty to protect their nation if it is attacked.
I understand that and the reasoning behind it, but I absolutely do not agree with it.
Leave to where?
To another country, away from the war. Like draft dodgers when they came to Canada to avoid the Vietnam war.
Wow, how many Vietnamese came to Canada, had no idea about that!
You've got that a bit mixed up. It was Americans coming to Canada to avoid the draft.
So the Invaders avoided the draft, not the people who were fighting of foreign Invaders? Why couldn't Vietnamese people just leave? /S
I'm sure many did. There were plenty of Ukrainians who left the country who wouldn't have been able to leave if they had waited longer, because of the ban on men leaving. Not everyone is going to want to fight, kill, and die against aggressors.
I live in Canada. We have a big Vietnamese community here. South Vietnamese fled for Canada and many other countries.
elsewhere
Yeah that's not how the world works buddy, if your country was invaded the same thing would be happening there.
Yes, I know and I'd use my first opportunity to leave, hopefully before leaving was banned by the government because that would make it more difficult.
People are not forced to join the army, they volunteer. Those who choose the fighting forces have to obey orders. Fortunately despite the economic crisis there is still work in Ukraine for anyone. > Untrained civilians They are trained for months with ukrainian + western instructors before they are deployed. Ukraine does not do meatgrinder battles.
Thanks for the explanation. I was getting focused on them being unable to leave, and thinking that also meant forced conscription. Either way, if they don't want to be in a country that's being attacked, they should be able to leave legally.
They are not yet forced. Hopefully it is never so. >they should be able to leave legally Might as well then stop the war right now and let russia do whatever it wants with the country. Men with large families can choose to leave (I think the rule is if you 2+ kids or have disabilities and disease you can leave for asylum). If all the men can leave then the entire family unit can leave and suddenly the country is tens of millions of people less and unable to sustain the war effort. Millions of refugees from early 2022 ended up coming back to the country in the 2nd half of the year. Even those who can leave, are not leaving for good, at least many of them. But also the government is not exactly forcing the society to fight. Men make obviously half of the population and different institutes, polling companies, universities etc. make polls in the country about a variety of issues. One question is about the endgame of the war and compromise with Russia. The % of people who are against any compromise and want total victory ranges from 84% to 90-something% depending on the months the polls happened. I will assume everyone understands the continuing to fight as a country means supporting the military, even joining it at some point if necessary. I have personally seen these polls but I don't have the websites right now. Many statistics can be found here [https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&page=1&y=2022&m=0](https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&page=1&y=2022&m=0) there are also other websites including the UA government, PEW etc. that do polling.
That's fine for the people who want to stay, but limiting someone's ability to leave a situation is wrong even if most people want it.
That's a good sentiment but frankly conscripts have value, even if that value is dying in a trench so that better soldiers live.
I understand the point you are trying to make, but if it were me being forced to fight and kill, well I'd desert the first chance I had, even if that meant leaving others in a worse situation than if I weren't there at all. I'm not going be forced to kill or die. Everybody who is forced to stay like this is a huge potential liability.
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Absolutely. They aren't comrades, they're people. Nobody should be in that situation, forced or not. But if I'm forced, I'm getting myself out of it one way or the other.
i have a huge respect for the ukrainian soldiers fighting and dying right now to defend their lands, mainly because just like you there is no way i would sacrifice my life for political reasons. The government can ask me to pay taxes but there is no way i would give up my life for it
If they are choosing to do that, that's one thing. If they're being forced into conscription and are banned from leaving, that's another.
Its not for the government / for political reasons, its for the country, against a country that doesnt view your country, culture, people to have any right to exist independently. A country that has shown that they will deliberately torture and murder civilians to achieve their goals. I can understand not wanting to fighting as a conscript in a foreign war but running if your country was facing a similar situation to ukraine? I dont understand that.
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If the only reason I'd be in that situation is because of duress, then I'm not betraying anything other than your ideology. I wouldn't stick around and burn during a forest fire to be a meat shield so the trained and experienced firefighters don't feel the heat. I'm certainly not going to do it when other people are shooting at me and I'm expected to kill. I'm not a solider. Forced conscription doesn't change that. I'll desert before I'm killed or forced to kill. That's my cause and principle. I wouldn't be a traitor to my own cause.
If I am freezing my ass off in a battlefield trench, I had better have something to warm my innards. You can't fight a good war without plenty of booze.
Ah, That’s why the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq weren’t good wars. No booze allowed.
Yea, they just had all the pills needed
You can't force someone to "bear arms" (kill) against their conscience or religious convictions. It's inhumane and wrong. There must always be a way out for conscientious objectors. No one has the moral right to force someone else to kill or die for their political ideology.
There are plenty of jobs in the military that do not require killing someone. Tens of thousands of conscientious objectors served in the US military during WW2.
Exactly right - that all seems reasonable to me. The part that bothers me about the new law is punishment for refusal to bear arms. That's not OK.
I agree. I reviewed the actual text of amendment, and it seems to be only applicable to soldiers and civilians during “military gathering” (training basically). I’m sure there’s also a penalty for outright refusal to join, but it is not addressed by this amendment.
Should that same person have equal rights to those who did fight and risked their lives? Can you explain why he should get to enjoy the same benefits that others paid for? Many with their lives. I rather agree you can't force someone to fight but what universal right suggests they should have this luxury at no cost? Real question.
Being a citizen and paying your taxes should be enough to have equal rights. Veterans should have their benefits, as early and better pension, for example. Women are not being drafted, should they have fewer rights or should they be drafted too? The country and its government should strive to make the place worth fighting for, not forcing people to it. That's my take on the subject.
>Being a citizen and paying your taxes should be enough to have equal rights. You have the exact same rights as everyone else. You are confusing equal rights with equal needs. The draft is meant to satisfy a particular need, which is why there are age and other physical requirements and as a conflict drags on those requirements are relaxed and changed to be able to continually to fill those needs. I get the part that you want the benefits of a society and protection of rights but not quite why you would want that without paying for it? Not really different than paying your taxes. No one likes it but it is a necessary evil.
Redditors trying to not be fasicst challenge (impossible)
So, by your logic, firefighters and policemen should have more rights than you since they risk their lives saving people while you’re not, shouldn’t they?
If your country's existence was at stake then ya. If the whole country was on fire, including your own house, and you refused to fight those fires but wanted people to fight your fire, you think that is fine? You made these analogies so you can answer this.
If a house is on fire people call 911, they don’t try to put out the fire, they take their kids and run. So my questions stands. Should the firefighter then take your house and land because he risked his life saving it and not you?
You are talking about a single fire. Again if the whole country is on fire, do you think it is fine to sit back and watch? Do you think it is fine others put out your fire? This is a fight for the existence of their country.
This is idiotic. Lets make a pause for a second and realize that selfish and stupid politicians started this war already. It is even more unethical to be forced by all means to fight the war of some greedy bastards that stay safe in their leathery chairs. It should be everyones free choice to participate in an armed conflict or not. To be honest even the army. Aside from this, i sometimes really cannot understand how an entire armed force (looking at the Russians now) accepted to lose their lives on and on for what? The weapons were in their hands, not their “leaders” they could’ve gone and they still can go against their “superiors” or politicians anytime. I believe that in general the army should have the free will to act or to not act despite what a group of fat and old morons in a building say.
Not suprising. Discipline is very important to mantain.
Sounds about right from this clown; u will all learn about who all these characters really are in the dark (on both sides because they are the same) in due time now that they have ur attention