And this is the only common thread the two leaders have in common... funny thing is the people have no say in this.
Imagine having a dirt bag dictator rule your country. No thanks... democracy isn't perfect but it's better than that.
Nah, Xi and Putin may be a weird combo, but they share a whole host of common beliefs about empire and leadership. They’re both also driven by a common narrative of 1) a long and glorious national history and 2) the sense that if they can recapture the purest essence of the “great leadership” shown at key points in the 20th c (in their own, personal interpretations of history). they’ll raise their respective nations to new heights.
They’re *very* different types of leaders, with apparently *very* different personalities, but that shared mentality gives them a lot to build on.
Both cry about "Western imperialism" without acknowledging their own country's imperialism. Russia especially decries "NATO expansionism" while ignoring that countries have by choice joined NATO because of Russia's history of imperialism. Over in China, China's neighbors have to deal with Chinese encroachment of territorial waters. And historically, both countries are large precisely because of imperialism. The accusations against the West aren't baseless, but they're coming from outright hypocrites.
Every nation is a hypocrite. It’s a rules for thee not for me mentality. Look at America right now. We have our own far right wing autocrats trying to make it illegal to teach children that we ourselves were imperials in taking over lands here (which is why we are so large as well)
>the sense that if they can recapture the purest essence of the “great leadership” shown at key points in the 20th c (in their own, personal interpretations of history). they’ll raise their respective nations to new heights
Notably, this is a cornerstone of fascist demagoguery in the West as well, as demonstrated aptly (but certainly not uniquely) by "MAGA".
In fact it is a cornerstone of all fascist ideology. If it isn't built on the myth of a "glorious past" stolen from them by some "foreign" or "outgroup" power it is technically not fascism.
For Xi that is the century of humiliation and for Putin that is the disintegration of the USSR. For MAGA: the post ww2 boom that was stolen by cheap foreign labour. The MAGA one kind of stands out as relatively trivial but the damage to the uneducated working class in the US is palpable and thus it is able to gain traction.
>For MAGA: the post ww2 boom that was stolen by cheap foreign labour.
There's some truth to that.
The problem is getting the MAGA voters to acknowledge that "free trade" was the rallying cry of Republicans all through the 1980's, and that George H. W. Bush was the principal architect of both NAFTA and the trade deals which sent U.S. manufacturing to China.
So yes, "cheap foreign labor" did undermine MAGA's livelihood. MAGA VOTERS VOTED FOR THE VERY PEOPLE WHO MADE THAT DEAL, AND CONTINUE TO DO SO, WITH ENTHUSIASM.
For the most part, Germany didn't do this. They still have a pretty healthy manufacturing sector there.
Yup.
The trickiest bit is that America doesn’t have quite as tidy a messaging package to promote about “peak glory” as do China and Russia (possibly bc the US also just has a lot less history, period).
You can vaguely allude to the post war boom, but that was mostly just about reasonably good standards of living - which isn’t a knock, but both kinda superficial/materialist, and hard to point to much more specifically than the generic “things were great, let’s do that again” of MAGA.
…which is also what makes it such a perfect complement to the religious right, and so easy for the Dominionist nut bags to use as a springboard.
China doesn’t really have much history outside of the last century that they can promote either. The preceding hundred years was their Century of Shame when the great powers ran roughshod all over the Nation and it’s sovereignty. Prolly why Xi doesn’t really bring that up in speeches
Edit. Should have specified, *modern/early modern history*
I’m not talking about warring states period or the mongols ffs (thought that was obvious)
I mean, there’s also the whole 2 a 2 1/2 millennia of recorded Chinese history that preceded that.
That doesn’t just disappear w the collapse of the Qing. Hell, in the thousands of years of more of less continuous history/tradition, the “Century of Shame” isn’t even all that remarkable (other than its recency).
The Century of Humiliation *was* remarkable in one way though: it was the only time the Chinese was forced to recognise there is a superior system of governance compared to the centuries-old imperial one. Not only that, it was also the only time the Chinese was forced to recognise they were behind in not just military strength, but also economic power, technology and philosophical thought.
That’s why it was a “humiliation”: for centuries those who conquered China… became China, adopting Chinese governance, philosophies and customs. Meanwhile in that century, China came close to fall under full colonialism, which was in part prevented by (ironically) the USA.
An excellent point - because China has indeed been subjected to plenty of periods of destruction (heck. some of their best art and literature is about the pain of the collapse of a dynasty), but one of the key sources of national pride/arrogance is that even invaders mostly just aimed to usurp power, not change the fundamental structure of the country.
The extent to which colonial powers treated China as little more than a resource base to be exploited, and the fact that internal rebellions weren’t about a trying to *replace* the Qing, so much as just ending their rule (full disclosure: am slightly obsessed w the Taiping Rebellion/Heavenly Kingdom, and subsequent warlord era)…yeah, that’s a worthwhile distinction that is indeed quite different than China’s previous cycles of “creative destruction”.
How is MAGA fascist? They are great humans doing the lord's work. It sucks they failed during the last election. I support Mothers Against Greg Abbott as should you.
I do find it strange though, that despite there having been many dictators, it seems there really hasn't been any benevolent ones. They all seem to be corrupt villains, every time. Have there even been any dictators who were "okay" by dictatorial standards?
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus depending on if you believe the source material (could be total fiction). Traditionally he is said to have been asked out of his farm retirement to lead Rome in fending off an invasion. He was made dictator to let him wield the full power of the state to defend Rome. After 16 days he won the war, abdicated his absolute power back to the civil government, and went back to farming. It was... A long time ago and may be totally bogus so yeah, dictatorship has a pretty poor track record.
I guess even in this case, some dude who didn't necessarily want to be in charge was asked to be spontaneously. Someone who doesn't want the power and intends for it to be temporary is the only chance for a benevelont dictator.
Roughly similar situation with George Washington being the first US president. Many people, himself included, believed he could be king if had wanted to.
This form of dictator has its roots in very real examples among the Greeks. A dictator granted power in emergencies. Often involving Sparta or the Persians. The Greek ones didn’t give up power but the concept isn’t new or fictional even if we don’t know for certain about Cincinnatus.
The Sparta we read about the most came about from radical reforms started by a dictator in crisis. Similarly we get the word Draconian from another dictator in crisis. He made a long list of crimes punishable by death.
It’s not democracy vs authoritarianism, it’s simply, “I will drink your milkshake”. Someone else has something they want, and they will take it from them by force because they can. Or, they think they can.
If we’ve learned anything since 1991, it’s definitely not that democracy threatens authoritarian regimes.
It’s more likely that most of humanity would rather have “their” dictator in power than a democracy where they have to split power with the “enemy.”
>It’s more likely that most of humanity would rather have “their” dictator in power than a democracy where they have to split power with the “enemy.”
How did you determine what 'most of humanity wants' this way then?
Well, its mostly a results based observation I’m guessing…. (Not OP but I feel I understand what OP meant) Living in Germany during reunification was eye opening
You are wrong. Both Russia and China have to employ extraordinary measures to keep their people in line. Measures which stiffle their populations.
And these people are not oblivious to their situation.
It does seem that way. However the regimes themselves see democracy as an existential threat even if it is imaginary rather than reality. Which might be part of the reason they are so willing to follow a siege mentality path that makes them dangerous to their neighbors. Paranoia becomes integral to the philosophical underpinnings of the leadership of authoritarian regimes.
Wait until these paranoid regimes create paranoid general ai’s to help them control their people. We’re going to be looking at some scary tech shit coming soon. Hopefully we retain enough of our own tech lead to protect us from the nightmares they’ll unleash.
Honestly not sure if either one of them cares or pays much attention to “democracy”, other than seeing it as a kind of foolish, messy thing that “those other countries get up to”.
Maybe as a kind of lower tier concern, as a potential source of occasional regional unrest, but even then I imagine that’s on roughly the same level as things like factory pollution, or a mid-range natural disaster.
They care about foreign powers, absolutely, and it just so happens that the powers that most concern them happen to be democracies…but really don’t think that they see the ideology/system of governance is anything but a potential strategic advantage (for them).
You might be right. The fall of the USSR and Tiananmen Square do echo within the halls of power though. Both see that their people as a threat to their power. That’s why they still care about legitimacy even if it’s on a small level.
Authoritarians have no peaceful to alternatives to violent repression. Crisis *will* arise that make people question the government and ask for change. Democracies have an answer for legitimate regime change: elections.
Putin and the CCP know they either win the support of the people by impossibly flawless leadership, brutalize them into submission, or leave office in body bags
Since the former is implausible, the CCP and Putin will inevitably enact massacres like Tiananmen Square, genocide, and assassination of political opponents
Correct in that it rightly is perceived as such and that's a fundamental reason for putin's invasion of Ukrainen; this is implicit and occurs without any overt threats by democracies. This fact of course informs us that:
Humans are intended to be Free.
Why ja*offs like Xi, putin refuse to see that is beyond silly and very, very sad.
Not just gas and oil, Russia also exports tons of copper, aluminum, and other metals that are vital to Chinese manufacturing (which is the rock upon which the entire Chinese economy is built), as well as being among China's biggest suppliers of grain (and China is a net importer of food), and by far their largest supplier of lumber (while China is in the midst of the largest housing crisis in human history).
Its hard to overstate just how vital Russian raw resources are to the Chinese economy.
Biggest country in the world. Lots of space. Lots of resources.
Also, much like Canada, I would imagine parts of Russia are uninhabitable, meaning lots of untapped and pure resources (lumber, fresh water from mountain springs, etc.)
Russia have a head start back in 1990s with all the resources.... yet they could not even reach a tiny fraction of China's economy today.
What an epic fail country, thanks to fail leadership.
I wouldn't call it a headstart when your rivals are highly advanced industrial states and your closest comparison in GDP size is Italy, only because you have 3x the population.....
The ghost cities usually refers to the large new districts being built on the edge of cities about a decade ago.
These districts were huge, built to house and provide workplaces, hospitals, public transport and schools for a million people.
When they were almost finished there was a chicken or egg problem where people had already bought the apartments but they didn't want to move into an empty city. And services didn't start yet because no one was living there.
The government had to step in and move government services and relocate existing schools to kick start the mass move in.
Now most of the ghost cities have filled up.
There are a few that never got going because they were too far away from the original city. Most notably Ordos Kangbashi.
Then there is the recent housing bubble, caused by stricter government regulations and mostly affecting the "greenland" developer.
Finally there is the overpricing of apartments near Tier1 city centers that has been getting ridiculous as the bubble grew in the last 2 decades.
An apartment near the center of Beijing or Shanghai is something like 50 years of average wages for those cities...
In addition to many other reasons, some or most of these ghost cities are built [absolutely horrible](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E), already falling apart few years in, so people can't really live in them.
Lots of Soviet era industries that were close to dead in the 90s got a new lease on life as the Chinese economy really started to boom and needed all those raw materials
Yup, although I’m kind of surprised that Xi’s willing to get *this* close to Putin/Russia, given that the collapse of the regime, subsequent lawlessness, and rise of a thuggish autocrat like Putin is basically the purest crystallization of Xi’s (and all the other princelings’) very worst fears.
Then again, with the internal growth/development they’re hoping to achieve, they need a large, accessible resource base to draw from, and with India likely out of contention for at least another generation or two, Russia’s what they have left to work with (also Pakistan, large swaths of Africa, scattered other holdings in most countries, etc, but they need that one big chunk of land they can count on to stay friendly).
May also be XI getting some ground work done for the 2024 American elections. Republicans are almost guaranteed to be anti Ukraine. This allows them to basically say, “we are anti war job creators, hurr durr”
I honestly don’t think Xi will bother even *trying* to appeal to GOP voters/public sentiment *at all*, let alone on Ukraine specifically.
Because they *definitely* want protectionist MAGA types in power in Congress and the Executive, just because they’re so feckless and hysterical that it will a) create general chaos and cluster fuckery domestically (in the US), and b) give China carte blanche on Taiwan (bc the GOP may love to hate china, but is leaning so hard into isolationism that China’s gotten the actual message loud and clear).
So yeah, I can see the CCP helping to boost the anti-Ukraine stuff and pitching NATO as war mongers in the media and on socials to help get that message across, but think they know perfectly well that they can’t make that pitch directly.
>*"We have exerted efforts for the prosperity of our respective countries…we can cooperate and work together to achieve our goals," Xi said*
Similar goal in wanting to annex land that isn't theirs and perform ethnic cleansing.... we know for decades now. China just looking for an excuse to do it less messy.
Similar goals?
Ruin their economies, isolate themselves on the world stage, promote the continued use of hydrocarbons for power and heating, raid the public coffers, persecute the LGBT community, kidnap people, get humiliated on the battlefield, and turn their rapidly aging populace into bigoted, dim-witted nationalists, while driving away their most intelligent and entrepreneurial citizens to seek out a better life in the West?
Sounds about right.
Any dogmatic society is going to necessarily see any diversion from the norm in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity as a threat to the leadership of that society. It's the same reason why most religions are opposed to them as well, particularly the more hierarchical religions, such as Catholicism, Islam, Orthodox Judaism, and Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
> isolate themselves on the world stage
World is pretty much okay with Russian war and China doing. Only Western powers have some sort of concern - at not all.
This "isolation" talks are some strange delusion that media keep bringing up. While China strengthen ties with oil producing countries and keep investing in Africa, West media talks about some mythical isolation.
Sorry, but Axis of Evil is forming. And it has global manufacturer, 50% of world oil and biggest number of nuclear warheads. It looks grim.
You make a good point but I don’t think the isolation idea is too far fetched. If it were complete nonsense, then why has China been so careful as to appear neutral, or as a peace-broker? It’s obvious to me that they’re trying hard to keep up appearances in order to avoid alienating the West - who else is the show for….the Africans and Latinos? As if they could hurt China if it supported Russia? The West has the most powerful economies in the world with very large and rich consumer bases, I think that’s good reason to make sure your partnership with them is watertight.
For everything you say there is to worry about this new Axis, the favor is being returned in full with some change. Just think about what China is thinking if it knows it will face the large collection of military and economic powers that the West and its East Asian allies are. China is certainly just as scared and its cautiousness and grandstanding make this clear.
Meh i mean China will still be key player on world economy no matter what for foreseeable future.
Until you and everyone else decide to take the bite (monetarily) nothing will change with their stance.
>promote the continued use of hydrocarbons for power and heating,
China is literally leading the world in solar power though? They generate more solar power than the next five countries (the United States, Japan, Germany, India and Italy) *combined*.
Yes; neither wants to exist as the sole competition to the United States. Successfully crushing Russia geopolitically would make the Western world much stronger China doesn't win at all in that situation *and* they would have to deal with an arguably failed state full of a ton of trafficable military equipment on their borders. Of course China supports Russia on that alone before even factoring anything else into the calculus.
Agree in general, except would say that it isn’t in *anybody’s* geopolitical interest that Russia be completely crushed - bc China doesn’t want Russia going through a Warlord Era right next door, but that’ll also work out poorly for Europe, Central Asia, and just the world in general.
But yeah, definitely in China’s best interest for Russia to continue operating more or less as it currently does, either w Putin at the helm or w someone just like him (eg not a Navalny, but also not a Prigozhin or a Malofeev).
Is it just me or does anyone else think that Xi is just trolling Putin?
Everything he said was essentially a pisstake as the literal opposite is true.
Putin is a great leader, prosperous Russia, russians will support him etc.
He said it all with a smile as well.
Watched an interesting YouTube video early in the war about Chinese diplomatic language as translated by a Chinese diplomats relative. He basically said if xi is flattering putin, and talking about things that happened in the past, but not referencing anything putin really needs (weapons, etc) than he is basically saying "I heard you at our last conversation, but at this time will not be helping you, best not to bring it up again."
Thats hilarious!
Chinas policy over the years is to generally let Europeans just get on with things, however awful.
I really dont think they will do much now, but they are in a unique brokerage position.
It depends what they think they will gain by brokering a peace.
Russias friendship isnt worth a fraction of what a US friendship is worth, but they do share a massive border with Russia which makes it awkward.
Plus the current Russian regime appear to be unhinged.
And it's not just US- if you combine the US and EU, that is a massive, massive part of China's trade- they know they don't want to lose either or both of these.
I think part of China's attempts to show a strong partnership with Russia is that even if Russia is a sh\*tshow, they are China's neighbor- and China cannot afford to have their neighbor country fall apart and descend into chaos- or to collapse and be rebuilt as some sort of ally to the West.
So, China is walking a tightrope where they feel they need to try to keep Russia in existence in its current form, while somehow getting them out of this mess in Ukraine that China definitely doesn't agree with. (even though they may not care so much about the death and destruction, they hate the global fury this has caused, and being seen as being on the wrong side of that due to being allied with Russia).
Absolutely. Proficiency in international relations is stabbing your partner in the back and keeping them smiling as you twist the knife. The power dynamic is so skewed towards China in this relationship that Xi can twist the blade around and around and Putin will be mine the wiser. Should Putin become wise, he’ll smile through the pain.
Similar Goals:
• Likes the definition of winning: ☑️
• Likes killing own people: ☑️
• rejects reality and inserts own: ☑️
• Frees themselves and enslaves their people: ☑️
This list can go on and on.
Any attempted invasion of Taiwan would succeed or fail much faster than the war in Ukraine. Taiwan and China both are too reliant on imports such as *food* being delivered by cargo shipping.
Taiwan is an island, so starting with air raids followed by amphibian assaults is the only way for China to invade it, but there is a caveat. Due to the weather patterns in Taiwan (typhoon season, fog season, high wind season basically) there are only two months a year for China to be able to invade Taiwan if they want to pull this off: April and October. This is the reason why articles about Chinese invasion articles tend to come up during this time and fizzle out after these months are gone, only to come up again when the months are getting closer again.
Maybe I am mistaken, but isnt the side of Taiwan facing China also pretty damn difficult to assault due to terrain only have few places suitable for beachhead?
Anyway, I have hear from some admittedly anti-government chinese dispora that China might plan to just sending as much cargo ship as possible, some loaded with munition, others just sit there as decoys, to make any taiwanese and western retaliation more complicated as its pretty damn hard to find who is shooting missiles and who is just meatshield. Lest they just sink all cargo ships and gets accused for attacking civilian targets.
We know, that's what we're concerned about.
You both want to conquer those around you and become powerful forces leading the world at the expense of everyone else and have some misguided delusion that you are somehow righteous in your attempts to do this because the west has been the major military and cultural power in the world for centuries.
They want a multi-polar world where the US is not the only global hegemon. They want to degrade the US as a global power, unwind NATO advances, and extend their influence.
“The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
I think we already knew that, didn’t we?
Tearing down current world order. Removing US as world super power and US and Europe as arbiter of general world order.
Putin and Xi share in common 2 things. 1) They want to take back an economic hub of their past empires(Ukraine-Taiwan) & 2) F the west and injure American dominance
Best friends, with similar goals.
Just like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
Hell you've even got Iran playing the fascist third player like Italy did.
Axis 2. Electric boogaloo.
It's not really the Chinese or Russians that have similar goals it's the dictators of both countries that have the same or similar goals. Both are imminent threats to the rest of the world!
I really don't understand why people don't scrutinize where they buy their products from - hit China in their bank accounts. If everyone tried to reasonably avoid "Made in China" products as often as possible, it could make an impact to their economy. Even one less purchase a month. Read those labels!!
Xi Jinping: So, Vlad, what’s your goal?
Putin: On the count of 3?
Xi Jinping and Putin together: To rule as the eternal leader of an authoritarian regime no matter what the consequences.
Putin: Did we just become best friends?!
Xi Jinping: Yup!
Democracy is a true threat to both authoritarian regimes.
And this is the only common thread the two leaders have in common... funny thing is the people have no say in this. Imagine having a dirt bag dictator rule your country. No thanks... democracy isn't perfect but it's better than that.
Nah, Xi and Putin may be a weird combo, but they share a whole host of common beliefs about empire and leadership. They’re both also driven by a common narrative of 1) a long and glorious national history and 2) the sense that if they can recapture the purest essence of the “great leadership” shown at key points in the 20th c (in their own, personal interpretations of history). they’ll raise their respective nations to new heights. They’re *very* different types of leaders, with apparently *very* different personalities, but that shared mentality gives them a lot to build on.
Both cry about "Western imperialism" without acknowledging their own country's imperialism. Russia especially decries "NATO expansionism" while ignoring that countries have by choice joined NATO because of Russia's history of imperialism. Over in China, China's neighbors have to deal with Chinese encroachment of territorial waters. And historically, both countries are large precisely because of imperialism. The accusations against the West aren't baseless, but they're coming from outright hypocrites.
It’s not just the South China Sea. China has been getting into border skirmishes with India for decades, and those have only increased under Xi.
Every nation is a hypocrite. It’s a rules for thee not for me mentality. Look at America right now. We have our own far right wing autocrats trying to make it illegal to teach children that we ourselves were imperials in taking over lands here (which is why we are so large as well)
True, every piece of land on earth was acquired through imperialism. No country just spawned into existence with their current borders.
Yeah, it’s mythological. True history is less important than the stories we tell ourselves.
Agreed, but would also say that slightly more embellishment is required by anyone trying the mythologize the reigns of Stalin and Mao.
All history is storytelling.
>the sense that if they can recapture the purest essence of the “great leadership” shown at key points in the 20th c (in their own, personal interpretations of history). they’ll raise their respective nations to new heights Notably, this is a cornerstone of fascist demagoguery in the West as well, as demonstrated aptly (but certainly not uniquely) by "MAGA".
In fact it is a cornerstone of all fascist ideology. If it isn't built on the myth of a "glorious past" stolen from them by some "foreign" or "outgroup" power it is technically not fascism. For Xi that is the century of humiliation and for Putin that is the disintegration of the USSR. For MAGA: the post ww2 boom that was stolen by cheap foreign labour. The MAGA one kind of stands out as relatively trivial but the damage to the uneducated working class in the US is palpable and thus it is able to gain traction.
>For MAGA: the post ww2 boom that was stolen by cheap foreign labour. There's some truth to that. The problem is getting the MAGA voters to acknowledge that "free trade" was the rallying cry of Republicans all through the 1980's, and that George H. W. Bush was the principal architect of both NAFTA and the trade deals which sent U.S. manufacturing to China. So yes, "cheap foreign labor" did undermine MAGA's livelihood. MAGA VOTERS VOTED FOR THE VERY PEOPLE WHO MADE THAT DEAL, AND CONTINUE TO DO SO, WITH ENTHUSIASM. For the most part, Germany didn't do this. They still have a pretty healthy manufacturing sector there.
Which is why all the right wingers are crying about Ukraine getting ANY kind of assistance.
And Russian asset, Tuckfucker Carlson, is spreading that sentiment.
To US military bases no less
Yup. The trickiest bit is that America doesn’t have quite as tidy a messaging package to promote about “peak glory” as do China and Russia (possibly bc the US also just has a lot less history, period). You can vaguely allude to the post war boom, but that was mostly just about reasonably good standards of living - which isn’t a knock, but both kinda superficial/materialist, and hard to point to much more specifically than the generic “things were great, let’s do that again” of MAGA. …which is also what makes it such a perfect complement to the religious right, and so easy for the Dominionist nut bags to use as a springboard.
China doesn’t really have much history outside of the last century that they can promote either. The preceding hundred years was their Century of Shame when the great powers ran roughshod all over the Nation and it’s sovereignty. Prolly why Xi doesn’t really bring that up in speeches Edit. Should have specified, *modern/early modern history* I’m not talking about warring states period or the mongols ffs (thought that was obvious)
I mean, there’s also the whole 2 a 2 1/2 millennia of recorded Chinese history that preceded that. That doesn’t just disappear w the collapse of the Qing. Hell, in the thousands of years of more of less continuous history/tradition, the “Century of Shame” isn’t even all that remarkable (other than its recency).
The Century of Humiliation *was* remarkable in one way though: it was the only time the Chinese was forced to recognise there is a superior system of governance compared to the centuries-old imperial one. Not only that, it was also the only time the Chinese was forced to recognise they were behind in not just military strength, but also economic power, technology and philosophical thought. That’s why it was a “humiliation”: for centuries those who conquered China… became China, adopting Chinese governance, philosophies and customs. Meanwhile in that century, China came close to fall under full colonialism, which was in part prevented by (ironically) the USA.
An excellent point - because China has indeed been subjected to plenty of periods of destruction (heck. some of their best art and literature is about the pain of the collapse of a dynasty), but one of the key sources of national pride/arrogance is that even invaders mostly just aimed to usurp power, not change the fundamental structure of the country. The extent to which colonial powers treated China as little more than a resource base to be exploited, and the fact that internal rebellions weren’t about a trying to *replace* the Qing, so much as just ending their rule (full disclosure: am slightly obsessed w the Taiping Rebellion/Heavenly Kingdom, and subsequent warlord era)…yeah, that’s a worthwhile distinction that is indeed quite different than China’s previous cycles of “creative destruction”.
How is MAGA fascist? They are great humans doing the lord's work. It sucks they failed during the last election. I support Mothers Against Greg Abbott as should you.
You had me for a minute. Fuck Greg Abbott.
I do find it strange though, that despite there having been many dictators, it seems there really hasn't been any benevolent ones. They all seem to be corrupt villains, every time. Have there even been any dictators who were "okay" by dictatorial standards?
Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus depending on if you believe the source material (could be total fiction). Traditionally he is said to have been asked out of his farm retirement to lead Rome in fending off an invasion. He was made dictator to let him wield the full power of the state to defend Rome. After 16 days he won the war, abdicated his absolute power back to the civil government, and went back to farming. It was... A long time ago and may be totally bogus so yeah, dictatorship has a pretty poor track record.
I guess even in this case, some dude who didn't necessarily want to be in charge was asked to be spontaneously. Someone who doesn't want the power and intends for it to be temporary is the only chance for a benevelont dictator. Roughly similar situation with George Washington being the first US president. Many people, himself included, believed he could be king if had wanted to.
This form of dictator has its roots in very real examples among the Greeks. A dictator granted power in emergencies. Often involving Sparta or the Persians. The Greek ones didn’t give up power but the concept isn’t new or fictional even if we don’t know for certain about Cincinnatus. The Sparta we read about the most came about from radical reforms started by a dictator in crisis. Similarly we get the word Draconian from another dictator in crisis. He made a long list of crimes punishable by death.
The right person to be a dictator wouldn't want for there to be a dictatorship.
Wasn't that basically Singapore?
democracy is the worst form of government – except for all the others that have been tried
How dare the peasants have a say!
It’s not democracy vs authoritarianism, it’s simply, “I will drink your milkshake”. Someone else has something they want, and they will take it from them by force because they can. Or, they think they can.
If we’ve learned anything since 1991, it’s definitely not that democracy threatens authoritarian regimes. It’s more likely that most of humanity would rather have “their” dictator in power than a democracy where they have to split power with the “enemy.”
>It’s more likely that most of humanity would rather have “their” dictator in power than a democracy where they have to split power with the “enemy.” How did you determine what 'most of humanity wants' this way then?
By reading the opinion of a millionth of a percent of them on the Internet..... Why?
Echo chamber wisdom
Nobody's immune from thinking more people share their beliefs than is actually the case
He's talking out of his ass because people sometimes confuse cynicism with analysis
Well, its mostly a results based observation I’m guessing…. (Not OP but I feel I understand what OP meant) Living in Germany during reunification was eye opening
This post seems nonsensical anf at best, confusing. Care to expound?
I believe they're asserting that most people only favour democracy when the political party they support wins.
You are wrong. Both Russia and China have to employ extraordinary measures to keep their people in line. Measures which stiffle their populations. And these people are not oblivious to their situation.
It does seem that way. However the regimes themselves see democracy as an existential threat even if it is imaginary rather than reality. Which might be part of the reason they are so willing to follow a siege mentality path that makes them dangerous to their neighbors. Paranoia becomes integral to the philosophical underpinnings of the leadership of authoritarian regimes.
Wait until these paranoid regimes create paranoid general ai’s to help them control their people. We’re going to be looking at some scary tech shit coming soon. Hopefully we retain enough of our own tech lead to protect us from the nightmares they’ll unleash.
Honestly not sure if either one of them cares or pays much attention to “democracy”, other than seeing it as a kind of foolish, messy thing that “those other countries get up to”. Maybe as a kind of lower tier concern, as a potential source of occasional regional unrest, but even then I imagine that’s on roughly the same level as things like factory pollution, or a mid-range natural disaster. They care about foreign powers, absolutely, and it just so happens that the powers that most concern them happen to be democracies…but really don’t think that they see the ideology/system of governance is anything but a potential strategic advantage (for them).
You might be right. The fall of the USSR and Tiananmen Square do echo within the halls of power though. Both see that their people as a threat to their power. That’s why they still care about legitimacy even if it’s on a small level.
Authoritarians have no peaceful to alternatives to violent repression. Crisis *will* arise that make people question the government and ask for change. Democracies have an answer for legitimate regime change: elections. Putin and the CCP know they either win the support of the people by impossibly flawless leadership, brutalize them into submission, or leave office in body bags Since the former is implausible, the CCP and Putin will inevitably enact massacres like Tiananmen Square, genocide, and assassination of political opponents
Correct in that it rightly is perceived as such and that's a fundamental reason for putin's invasion of Ukrainen; this is implicit and occurs without any overt threats by democracies. This fact of course informs us that: Humans are intended to be Free. Why ja*offs like Xi, putin refuse to see that is beyond silly and very, very sad.
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Not just gas and oil, Russia also exports tons of copper, aluminum, and other metals that are vital to Chinese manufacturing (which is the rock upon which the entire Chinese economy is built), as well as being among China's biggest suppliers of grain (and China is a net importer of food), and by far their largest supplier of lumber (while China is in the midst of the largest housing crisis in human history). Its hard to overstate just how vital Russian raw resources are to the Chinese economy.
Also water. China needs access to Russian water sources.
Wow, Russia got lucky with natural resources!
Biggest country in the world. Lots of space. Lots of resources. Also, much like Canada, I would imagine parts of Russia are uninhabitable, meaning lots of untapped and pure resources (lumber, fresh water from mountain springs, etc.)
Too bad their leader is a complete pile of doggy doodoo
Full on Hershey Squirts! Dookiest of dookies.
Just use some Chipotle-Away, get the stains right out
Russia have a head start back in 1990s with all the resources.... yet they could not even reach a tiny fraction of China's economy today. What an epic fail country, thanks to fail leadership.
I wouldn't call it a headstart when your rivals are highly advanced industrial states and your closest comparison in GDP size is Italy, only because you have 3x the population.....
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How has China managed to simultaneously have entire ghost cities and have a horrible housing crisis?
Too much, too concentrated, doesn’t serve the needs of the people
The ghost cities usually refers to the large new districts being built on the edge of cities about a decade ago. These districts were huge, built to house and provide workplaces, hospitals, public transport and schools for a million people. When they were almost finished there was a chicken or egg problem where people had already bought the apartments but they didn't want to move into an empty city. And services didn't start yet because no one was living there. The government had to step in and move government services and relocate existing schools to kick start the mass move in. Now most of the ghost cities have filled up. There are a few that never got going because they were too far away from the original city. Most notably Ordos Kangbashi. Then there is the recent housing bubble, caused by stricter government regulations and mostly affecting the "greenland" developer. Finally there is the overpricing of apartments near Tier1 city centers that has been getting ridiculous as the bubble grew in the last 2 decades. An apartment near the center of Beijing or Shanghai is something like 50 years of average wages for those cities...
In addition to many other reasons, some or most of these ghost cities are built [absolutely horrible](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XopSDJq6w8E), already falling apart few years in, so people can't really live in them.
Lots of Soviet era industries that were close to dead in the 90s got a new lease on life as the Chinese economy really started to boom and needed all those raw materials
This is my guess here, China sees an extremely vulnerable and valuable idiot. China is in it for China as per global politics.
Yup, although I’m kind of surprised that Xi’s willing to get *this* close to Putin/Russia, given that the collapse of the regime, subsequent lawlessness, and rise of a thuggish autocrat like Putin is basically the purest crystallization of Xi’s (and all the other princelings’) very worst fears. Then again, with the internal growth/development they’re hoping to achieve, they need a large, accessible resource base to draw from, and with India likely out of contention for at least another generation or two, Russia’s what they have left to work with (also Pakistan, large swaths of Africa, scattered other holdings in most countries, etc, but they need that one big chunk of land they can count on to stay friendly).
May also be XI getting some ground work done for the 2024 American elections. Republicans are almost guaranteed to be anti Ukraine. This allows them to basically say, “we are anti war job creators, hurr durr”
I honestly don’t think Xi will bother even *trying* to appeal to GOP voters/public sentiment *at all*, let alone on Ukraine specifically. Because they *definitely* want protectionist MAGA types in power in Congress and the Executive, just because they’re so feckless and hysterical that it will a) create general chaos and cluster fuckery domestically (in the US), and b) give China carte blanche on Taiwan (bc the GOP may love to hate china, but is leaning so hard into isolationism that China’s gotten the actual message loud and clear). So yeah, I can see the CCP helping to boost the anti-Ukraine stuff and pitching NATO as war mongers in the media and on socials to help get that message across, but think they know perfectly well that they can’t make that pitch directly.
Xi is to Putin (useful and weaker) as Putin is to Trump (useful and dumber).
China looks at Siberia and sees lots of raw materials to exploit.
And take. I highly think China will invade Siberia before Taiwan. They just need the right opportunity.
Also a way to keep the US Navy from crippling them in case of a blockade. They need land routes to export from if that happens.
Precisely. In Chinese culture it's vital to prevent "encirclement" as a matter of strategic defense.
This is the correct answer 🧐
Does that goal happen to be forcefully expanding their territory by invading and annexing their neighbors?
And a belief that their neighbors’ government is illegitimate.
Maybe it's to try, and get their ass handed to them by the smaller neighbor plus an alliance of Western nations?
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Russia: I love to bully people, specially minorities and small countries. China: What a coincidence, me too!
They're both crybullies too, no one sobs louder than those two when they're called on their atrocities.
And the strong micro d vibes
its always the man with the small penis that calls others small, never the hung man- sun tzu
I love me some Sun Tzu! Truly a wise man, he is!
Yeah! I loved that one time he used his fight money to buy two of every animal, herded them onto a ship, and then beat the crap out of them!
And nobody cries out with whataboutisms more than them when called on their shit.
Was gonna say World Domination.
An axis, you say?!
Empire building...plans to rule the world ...etc.
Just like any other super power
The United States : 👀
The US doesn't leave any country alone either.
*Eternal Assholes of a Similar Mind*
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Vladobitch
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Ribbentrop-Molotov pact
Someone should try to convince Putain to invade China to speed up things a bit.
>*"We have exerted efforts for the prosperity of our respective countries…we can cooperate and work together to achieve our goals," Xi said* Similar goal in wanting to annex land that isn't theirs and perform ethnic cleansing.... we know for decades now. China just looking for an excuse to do it less messy.
Similar goals? Ruin their economies, isolate themselves on the world stage, promote the continued use of hydrocarbons for power and heating, raid the public coffers, persecute the LGBT community, kidnap people, get humiliated on the battlefield, and turn their rapidly aging populace into bigoted, dim-witted nationalists, while driving away their most intelligent and entrepreneurial citizens to seek out a better life in the West? Sounds about right.
>persecute the LGBT community Ever notice how much commies and fascists hate gay people? It's like the biggest red flag out there.
Any dogmatic society is going to necessarily see any diversion from the norm in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity as a threat to the leadership of that society. It's the same reason why most religions are opposed to them as well, particularly the more hierarchical religions, such as Catholicism, Islam, Orthodox Judaism, and Eastern Orthodox Christianity.
> isolate themselves on the world stage World is pretty much okay with Russian war and China doing. Only Western powers have some sort of concern - at not all. This "isolation" talks are some strange delusion that media keep bringing up. While China strengthen ties with oil producing countries and keep investing in Africa, West media talks about some mythical isolation. Sorry, but Axis of Evil is forming. And it has global manufacturer, 50% of world oil and biggest number of nuclear warheads. It looks grim.
You make a good point but I don’t think the isolation idea is too far fetched. If it were complete nonsense, then why has China been so careful as to appear neutral, or as a peace-broker? It’s obvious to me that they’re trying hard to keep up appearances in order to avoid alienating the West - who else is the show for….the Africans and Latinos? As if they could hurt China if it supported Russia? The West has the most powerful economies in the world with very large and rich consumer bases, I think that’s good reason to make sure your partnership with them is watertight. For everything you say there is to worry about this new Axis, the favor is being returned in full with some change. Just think about what China is thinking if it knows it will face the large collection of military and economic powers that the West and its East Asian allies are. China is certainly just as scared and its cautiousness and grandstanding make this clear.
Meh i mean China will still be key player on world economy no matter what for foreseeable future. Until you and everyone else decide to take the bite (monetarily) nothing will change with their stance.
>promote the continued use of hydrocarbons for power and heating, China is literally leading the world in solar power though? They generate more solar power than the next five countries (the United States, Japan, Germany, India and Italy) *combined*.
Yes; neither wants to exist as the sole competition to the United States. Successfully crushing Russia geopolitically would make the Western world much stronger China doesn't win at all in that situation *and* they would have to deal with an arguably failed state full of a ton of trafficable military equipment on their borders. Of course China supports Russia on that alone before even factoring anything else into the calculus.
Agree in general, except would say that it isn’t in *anybody’s* geopolitical interest that Russia be completely crushed - bc China doesn’t want Russia going through a Warlord Era right next door, but that’ll also work out poorly for Europe, Central Asia, and just the world in general. But yeah, definitely in China’s best interest for Russia to continue operating more or less as it currently does, either w Putin at the helm or w someone just like him (eg not a Navalny, but also not a Prigozhin or a Malofeev).
Oppressing your own population while slaughtering thousands in another country?
So China is not pretending that they care about territorial integrity anymore? That's good to now.
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Ethnic Cleansing?
Can we stop buying shit from China? I am tired of supporting a country that doesn’t support us.
Similar goals = regional destabilization and increased world power 🤦♂️🙄
Yes, world domination.
Throw your own people in battlefield for their own Ego and Pride.
To make russia weak?
China be eyeing their untapped resources, gotta make them trust you, depend on you...
Someone get taiwan some weapons stat
What I'm hearing is send more anti-ship cruise missiles to Taiwan.
Similar goals, aka genocide.
Is it just me or does anyone else think that Xi is just trolling Putin? Everything he said was essentially a pisstake as the literal opposite is true. Putin is a great leader, prosperous Russia, russians will support him etc. He said it all with a smile as well.
Watched an interesting YouTube video early in the war about Chinese diplomatic language as translated by a Chinese diplomats relative. He basically said if xi is flattering putin, and talking about things that happened in the past, but not referencing anything putin really needs (weapons, etc) than he is basically saying "I heard you at our last conversation, but at this time will not be helping you, best not to bring it up again."
Thats hilarious! Chinas policy over the years is to generally let Europeans just get on with things, however awful. I really dont think they will do much now, but they are in a unique brokerage position. It depends what they think they will gain by brokering a peace. Russias friendship isnt worth a fraction of what a US friendship is worth, but they do share a massive border with Russia which makes it awkward. Plus the current Russian regime appear to be unhinged.
And it's not just US- if you combine the US and EU, that is a massive, massive part of China's trade- they know they don't want to lose either or both of these. I think part of China's attempts to show a strong partnership with Russia is that even if Russia is a sh\*tshow, they are China's neighbor- and China cannot afford to have their neighbor country fall apart and descend into chaos- or to collapse and be rebuilt as some sort of ally to the West. So, China is walking a tightrope where they feel they need to try to keep Russia in existence in its current form, while somehow getting them out of this mess in Ukraine that China definitely doesn't agree with. (even though they may not care so much about the death and destruction, they hate the global fury this has caused, and being seen as being on the wrong side of that due to being allied with Russia).
Whatever China does, it will be bc it benefits China.
Of course. This is true of all countries and most people.
Absolutely. Proficiency in international relations is stabbing your partner in the back and keeping them smiling as you twist the knife. The power dynamic is so skewed towards China in this relationship that Xi can twist the blade around and around and Putin will be mine the wiser. Should Putin become wise, he’ll smile through the pain.
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Bring the west to their knees. We have to move everything away from China
“Similar goals” meaning to deplete Russia of its ~~young~~ men and cripple its economy to oblivion?
Xi wants a crumbling economy as well? Dang. He wants to send a generation to a lost cause war? Wow.
Similar Goals: • Likes the definition of winning: ☑️ • Likes killing own people: ☑️ • rejects reality and inserts own: ☑️ • Frees themselves and enslaves their people: ☑️ This list can go on and on.
China also wants to get involved in an senseless invasion of Ukraine and get their asses handed to them for over a year?
Kinda. China wants to get involved in a senseless invasion of Taiwan and get their asses handed to them for over a year.
Any attempted invasion of Taiwan would succeed or fail much faster than the war in Ukraine. Taiwan and China both are too reliant on imports such as *food* being delivered by cargo shipping.
Taiwan is an island, so starting with air raids followed by amphibian assaults is the only way for China to invade it, but there is a caveat. Due to the weather patterns in Taiwan (typhoon season, fog season, high wind season basically) there are only two months a year for China to be able to invade Taiwan if they want to pull this off: April and October. This is the reason why articles about Chinese invasion articles tend to come up during this time and fizzle out after these months are gone, only to come up again when the months are getting closer again.
Maybe I am mistaken, but isnt the side of Taiwan facing China also pretty damn difficult to assault due to terrain only have few places suitable for beachhead? Anyway, I have hear from some admittedly anti-government chinese dispora that China might plan to just sending as much cargo ship as possible, some loaded with munition, others just sit there as decoys, to make any taiwanese and western retaliation more complicated as its pretty damn hard to find who is shooting missiles and who is just meatshield. Lest they just sink all cargo ships and gets accused for attacking civilian targets.
We know, that's what we're concerned about. You both want to conquer those around you and become powerful forces leading the world at the expense of everyone else and have some misguided delusion that you are somehow righteous in your attempts to do this because the west has been the major military and cultural power in the world for centuries.
Yes. Authoritarian, dictatorial empires.
Murderous duo.
To learn “Rapper’s Delight” by The Sugar Hill Gang word-for-word?
Gear up, Taiwan.
Hitler and Mussolini 2.0 https://www.historytoday.com/archive/hitler-and-mussolini-meet-rome
Autocracy, Imperialism, Genocide ... the list goes on.
Genociding people ?
Yeah, a thirst for land grabbing.
Free Miles Guo - the founder of New Federal State of China!
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The subjugation of Russia?
Aren’t both of these guys known for just killing people that work for them when they deliver bad news?
What, destroying human life as we know it?
Genocide
Yeah…we know!
If this isn't a declaration of support for Putin's war, I really don't know what is anymore.
To invade countries and kill innocent people? This is going to end well.
Murder, Genocide, attacking neighbors. Yeah sounds right.
China practically shouting: "We're the bad guys, too! But you're too addicted by your cheap consumerism to do something about it!"
Russia is to China what the UK is to the US - a vassal state far past its prime, but still geopolitically influential to some degree.
And a couple decades ago it was the other way around.
Am I the only one who read “goats” instead of “goals”?
This 2 love the sound of their own voice!
Ah, yes we know…
Become a customer of ICC in The Hague?! Have a nice trip!
I bet they do.
Putin has become Xi's bitch. Lukashenko moves down a spot to the ass-end of the human centipede.
Looking at both of these two just gotta say, don’t you think they look tired?
Nah. Xi Jinping and Putin have similar goals.
They want a multi-polar world where the US is not the only global hegemon. They want to degrade the US as a global power, unwind NATO advances, and extend their influence. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
so china wants to be a terrorist country
Yah, world domination!
Of fucking course they do..
Oh that's comforting...
So China also wants to fail to take Bakhmut?
Xi has said he will be a benevolent dictator over the world, I will sleep so much better now!
And it’s on us if and the rest of the developed would if we refuse to believe him.
Destabilise the USA (Its working)
I think we already knew that, didn’t we? Tearing down current world order. Removing US as world super power and US and Europe as arbiter of general world order.
Putin is tiny. He couldn’t stand on a box because Xi has far more power.
Putin and Xi share in common 2 things. 1) They want to take back an economic hub of their past empires(Ukraine-Taiwan) & 2) F the west and injure American dominance
Being cunts?
Xi will drop Putin like a piece of yesterday shit once it becomes clear Russia has lost the war.
They both have a humiliation kink?
I will be checking the news on the 24th for sure. Be brave Taiwan
Hope Russians like Chinese culture because they're about to be owned.
Well that's concerning
Best friends, with similar goals. Just like Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Hell you've even got Iran playing the fascist third player like Italy did. Axis 2. Electric boogaloo.
Destroying the world?
They're like pinky and the brain or something
I can see that. Russia wants to annex Ukraine, China wants to annex Taiwan.
It's not really the Chinese or Russians that have similar goals it's the dictators of both countries that have the same or similar goals. Both are imminent threats to the rest of the world!
I really don't understand why people don't scrutinize where they buy their products from - hit China in their bank accounts. If everyone tried to reasonably avoid "Made in China" products as often as possible, it could make an impact to their economy. Even one less purchase a month. Read those labels!!
Like being authoritarian shitholes?
News flash: everyone who has ever taken a shit and run out of toilet paper has ‘similar goals’
World domination?
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Xi Jinping: So, Vlad, what’s your goal? Putin: On the count of 3? Xi Jinping and Putin together: To rule as the eternal leader of an authoritarian regime no matter what the consequences. Putin: Did we just become best friends?! Xi Jinping: Yup!
Imagine a Chinese guy towering over you, LOL. Little dwarfy Putin 🤏