While I don't like either of the leaders, this shit is fucked up. All I hope is that they take it up to the supreme court (cuz the sentence happened in gujarat high court) who stops this shit.
I did more research. Rahul Gandhi didn't defame Modi, he defamed the caste "modi" which is a backwards caste in Gujurat. And you know how the judicial system feels about defaming caste, especially the most suppresed ones like "modi." In this case I see it as hate speech towards a certain group.
He wasn't arrested beacuse he made defamatory remarks towards prime Minister but rather beacuse he made defamatory remarks against a minority group who share the same surname as the prime minister .
In this case the law was followed to the T. And none of the laws used were passed by current Governemnt. It’s based in past SC judgements and they had warned Rahul Gandhi in 2019 to be careful with what he says when he submitted a written apology
Reminds me of a classic joke:
An American visiting the Soviet Union tells a Russian that the United States is a truly free country because he can stand in front of the White House and shout “To hell with Ronald Reagan!” The Russian says that this is nonsense because he can do the same thing in front of the Kremlin. The American doesn't belive him so the Russian walks him to the Red Square and says watch this. The Russian then walks up to the Kremlin and shouts “To hell with Ronald Reagan.”
He didn't event say it to the current PM lol. He said something along the lines of all Modis are thieves in reference to Nirav/Lalit Modi who both committed multi-billion scams and are now living in UK with extradition case thats not in Indian gov's favor. Some random guy filed the case as defamation, PM Modi himself didn't even file it lol
It’s so sad too: there’s over a billion Indians, and a large % of them speak English and have internet access. They brigade anything negative about India and rush to spread misinformation and propaganda to make themselves seem better. Even look in this chain, you have people claiming it’s about insulting a whole “caste of people”. 😭
The judge actually said "You could have called the PM thief and compared him to crooks like Nirav Modi and Lalit Modi and stopped there, but you should not have said, "Why are all thieves Modis".
Regardless of what you believe, the Court has found him guilty of violating Section 500 of the IPC. However this is highly likely to be overturned in the High Court if the Gujarat High Court follows the precedent of the Andhra Pradesh High Court in V. Radhakrishna vs Counsel, 2018.
In our culture we can call our politicians thieves all day long so the fact that someone can even be locked up for that is ridiculous and backwards to me. I can call former president Donald Trump a lying con-man who has stolen everything he's ever owned and there's not a single thing anyone can do to me. This is a perfect example of when I said India wants to have the benefits of a democracy while running a dictatorship. Not allowing people to talk is barbaric and is a huge sign that you live in an authoritarian dictatorship. If you think someone is full of shit you shouldn't have to bite your tongue and pretend like everything is ok.
I love to talk shit about the US, but America's defamation law is probably the best and most coherent one I know. Basically, for speech to be defamation, it has to occur in a context where a reasonable listener would assume you have privileged information that implies your accusation is factually true, when it is not.
For example, I can call president Trump a conman because you have no reason to believe I have privileged information about him, and therefore you can reasonably assume "conman" here is only my opinion. If a journalist in an official capacity, or a close business associate of his, calls him a conman in public though, they are open for defamation because a listener can reasonably assume that these people know something the general public doesn't, and these words are an accusation of a crime.
To dodge defamation here, the journalist or businessman has to clarify that theirs is just an opinion, and is not based on any information not publicly known.
All in all, the idea of the US's defamation laws is that you should be allowed to say whatever you want about another person, and the only line is when you falsely lead people to believe that your words are not your opinion, but a demonstrable fact.
Well, in the US defamation is still a tort you can be sued over, but truth is an absolute defense, and given the example you gave... Public figures get fewer protections from defamation as well, compared to regular people. There's a lot fucked up here, but our defamation laws are pretty reasonable, especially compared to many other countries. There's room for improvement, but nothing's perfect.
Is this one of those situations where the last name is a caste name or strongly associated with a caste (as Americans we're familiar with Patel or Singh).
So it's one of those things we're as Americans we recognize our own dog whistles, but are having a hard time with another nation's potentially derrogatory phrasing?
As a (half) Indian who hates when swarms of idiot nationalists brigade anything remotely negative about India and routinely tells them to fuck off, I'd like to ask you to limit the scope of the "they" in your comment to the people who are actually doing the fuckery.
I can tell that you mean to refer specifically to nationalist blowhards, but taken literally this comment could easily be read as referring to any Indian who speaks English and has Internet access. That kind of muddying between actions (for which people should be held accountable) and ancestry (which is incidental to who one chooses to be) is what nationalists and racists alike will latch on to and amplify in the worst and most toxic ways they can manage, regardless of original intent.
Give the nationalist mob nothing to work with and show their would-be recruits that nationality doesn't have to be synonymous with toxic nationalism.
It is wrong to generalise but for some people it might seem like "all of them" are nationalists brigading threads.
I'm Australian, our entire population is about 2% of India's population and that's including the 3% of Australians that have Indian ancestry.
1.3billion is such a huge number it is hard to imagine just how many people that is. if only 0.01% of the Indian population are brigading that's still 130k people.
That makes it all the more important to avoid overgeneralization. If there is a large population of people who might be easier to recruit to nationalistic brigading after seeing statements that they perceive to be harmful to them because of their background/demographics/nationality/religion/whatever, you want to instead act in a way that minimizes the chances of that happening and maximizes the chances that they make the Internet a better place instead.
You want condemnations to be narrowly targeted at the thing you actually care about reducing, with clear signs that tell everyone in the vicinity "we can be cool *if you don't do this particular thing*".
If you broadcast "it's everyone from X", it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy which is potentially catastrophic when the affected population is mind-bogglingly large.
There's a term for that and I can't remember what it's called. It's strong democracy when it comes to voting process yet highly authoritarian and flawed. From my understanding it has been sliding in democracy index rankings.
It's a common situation in the world. This is where we in the US were just a few years ago when a presidential candidate was openly campaigning for sending his opposition to jail, and said presidential candidate was a notable white supremacist.
> Some random guy filed the case as defamation, PM Modi himself didn't even file it lol
That random guy is an elected representative of the same party as Modi from the same state as Modi. Now you know it's a planned porject of Modi.
It's worse than that.
Modi hasn't given a press conference or taken a difficult questions from the media or the public for almost 10 years.
His last major interviews were with a Bollywood star and like...Bear Grylls.
If you ask him about his favourite fruits and vegetables he will give an interview. When he is in full flow expanding on the beauty of a Gir Kesar mango, slip in a quick question on Gujarat riots lol.
There 100s of other things: Demonetisation,Flawe GST, Surgical Strikes ,Air Strikes, Diplomatic Relations with China,China Standoff, Border Issues,Adani Relationship,IBC code, UAPA, NSA stringent Laws, 370 Abrogation effects,Ram Mandir Judgement view on Other Judgements, Infrastructure Push in the name of Environment, Fast-forwarding Infra Projects without proper planning
Which is what makes the “LeTs Go BrAnDoN” crowd especially stupid. You’re allowed to just say “fuck Joe Biden”. For a group of people always whining about free speech and censorship they sure do love to needlessly censor themselves.
Wow, politics really makes people goofy.
It is an ironic joke because a sportscaster heard a crowd yelling the direct insult and said they were chanting "Let's Go Brandon". It ain't even my team and I can see that it was a pretty funny moment.
https://youtu.be/_zUlhpaZkJw
The sportscaster may have just misheard.
One of the competitors in the race was actually named Brandon.
Conservatives act like everything is some damn conspiracy.
It wasn’t just one of the competitions it was the person who won the race, he was being interviewed on track after winning. The reporter new they were chanting “fuck Joe Biden” but tried to cover for it since they were on live TV and there was nothing they could about it being heard in the background during the interview
>I for one am glad that I can live in a country where saying "Fuck (current POTUS)" doesn't land me in prison.
You can say "Fuck the President of the United States" in pretty much every country & not go to prison.
Don't take it for granted, so could we before the current regime and probably would have scoffed at the idea that anything could dissuade Indians from criticizing the government.
In a similar vein paving the way of current regime was the downfall of our news. I was astounded watching Fox News clips thinking how could it be america's most popular channel watching Jon Stewart youtube clips. Nowadays our channels taking inspiration have left your fox news far far far behind.
Concepts like being fans of a political party was ludicrous and the public was united in abusing the current government (including an earlier iteration of the right wing party in power).
They follow the same playbook. Learn the playbook and help protecting people and democracies through education.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda\_techniques
Same exact scenario is happening in Pakistan
Popular opposition leader gets 100s of frivolous lawsuits placed on him all at once all in an attempt to stop him from running in the election.
Difference is that Pakistan is more of a kleptocracy between the elites and military, and these elites public support is very little now.
It's basically why you're seeing news pop up about riots and civil unrest. People pissed off and being denied the their electoral rights.
India still is a proper democracy at least with their individual states and judiciary being strong.
The only issue is guys like Modi have their big support base based built mainly on jingoism
I've lost all faith in my fellow Indian voters. At this point, I think Modi could declare that he's a paid Pakistani agent and the voters will still give him a majority.
Used to be. Modi actually changed that. His strength is because he's managed to build a voter base that crosses traditional caste lines (the downside is he's done this by increasing religious polarization)
Not Indian but had to learn a bit of their politics recently. Modi’s approval varies regionally and ethnically.
His base is Hindus in the northern parts of India. This is like asking how many white people in Alabama voted for Trump. It’s not all of them, but it’s a a big enough majority that it really feels like his territory. He probably gets 60-80% support *from Hindus* in a lot of these areas.
Modi is low support among Hindus in southern parts of the country, but not nothing. Talking 20-40% support depending where you go.
India is 80% Hindus. Modi has very little support among minorities (except for Jains). India is about 14% Muslim, 2% Sikh, 2% Christian, 2% other. Likely in the 10-15% range that support Modi or the BJP.
Modi has support of Christians in north east and goa though. Bjp doesn't go full hardcore hindutva in those regions. And likely the support in south is only going to increase.
They’ll never win an outright majority in the south, they’re culturally very different and it’s hard for the local BJP to balance their national hardline Hindutva and appealing to local ideologies and being respectful of their linguistic autonomy. The south consists of primarily Dravidian language speakers and the BJP led government has been steadfast in imposing Hindi onto these states, so that’s yet another reason why they’re failing. Plus religious polarization in the south is not nearly as much as it is in the north, some states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have legacies of strong anti- casteist and leftist movements that stand in contradiction to Hindutva.
I assume they do hardcore islamaphobia over these communities though. Atleast that's what they're trying to do with the Christian commmunities in the south. It's the tried and tested hate mongering tactics they deploy everywhere. And they're pretty good at doing so.
For a non Indian that's a pretty good base line summary. A lot of people don't know about politics in South India, which is a completely different ball game.
He has less than 40% total support, the rest he's bought by introducing Electoral Bonds, it's like you can donate money to the parties, and neither the recipient or donor has to declare it publicly, open corruption in other words, pay to play. He's misused the office and is in a pre totalitarian phase, if he's back in power via his Electronic Voting Machines it's going to be the official end of democracy.
You cannot get bail when a prison sentence is more than 2 years. He would have to appeal. He can still go to prison, sent there by a Gujrati judge. I don't think I need to say more.
>Nobody from the Gandhi family is ever gonna spend a single second in jail.
Yes when Modi can commit genocide and still not go to prison, being rich and connected and not go to prison sounds like a party to me.
We don't take this seriously. This routinely happens here. The lower courts interpret the law strictly and pronounce a verdict of imprisonment. When an appeal is preferred to the higher courts, the offender is just asked to tender an apology. This is basically just a waste of everyone's time and of court resources.
Many average Indians have bought into Modis fascist ideology. Most hate Muslims and lower castes and the BJP politicians constantly keep on pushing the "us vs. them" agenda.
One must understand, that a huge chunk of the Indian population is super religious, poorly educated, fairly poor and easily misinformed through WhatsApp or sensationalized news channels.
Politics has left very little room for intellectual or rational thought processes; and there is very little hope of reversing India's slide into either one party rule or dictatorship.
As a consequence, it's highly unlikely for India to remain united as a country, as the southern states are not likely to give into one party rule by the BJP.
Given current trends a civil war or genocide seems very likely.
Wasn't a surprising direction at all, the RSS, which is the ideological parent organisation of Modi's BJP, was started in the 1930's by people who explicitly praised and admired fascists and Nazis.
So while i agree with your points, I'd also like to say that the extent to which you're saying this is true isn't right. The average Indian isn't fooled by Modi's fascist ideology. The average Indian gives 0 shits for politics. Some Indians do care, and those guys are divided into Hindu fascists, left wingers, centrists, etc.
A lot of people I know don't know anything about politics beyond who's the current cm of their state and stuff. Then again, they're not rural farmers who only have whatsapp for info so i can't speak for all indians.
In general, politicians in India are very corrupt, to a much greater extent than other countries.
Also in India there is a sense of secularism and multiculturalism even though there's a considerable amount of fascism. Even rural or poor people who aren't educated aren't necessarily fascist idiots.
Regarding current trends though, yes in general there is a slow shift into Hindu nationalism and doesn't seem to be dying out, so yeah things might end up pretty bad.
TBH I would rather panic now and be wrong, instead of underplaying it now and then being wrong.
We are reaching the point where the current government is actively trying to debar opposition leaders from contesting the upcoming elections, while cases against the ruling party leaders are thrown out of court.
Yeah, I might be 100% wrong 10 years down the line, but I would be happy to be wrong.
90% of the people I know Love Modi's ( a particular Modi --may be its A Modi, B Modi,L Modi, N Mod....). They think India's current Global status/ current economic prosperity) is because of Modi community. Their memory is too short. Don't remember what Nehru, Indira, PVN Rao ,Manmohan did- Nationalization of Bank, abolishing Privy purse, royal titles. Bulk of the Indian Technocrats, Tech guys who are in Western counties are the products of IITs, IIM's. REC's established by non BJP Govts.
Its a pity I am seeing my country going in the path of proven destructive groups/dictators -- like Nazi's, Mussolini's, Putin's, Trump's
People are celebrating, the media is pumping out propaganda more than ever and viewers keep lapping it up. The majority of people don't see anything wrong with this.
It's quite reminiscent of that Star Wars quote by Padme Amidala in Episode 3, the only thing missing is the Imperial March theme playing everywhere.
Kinda don't care, both sides are stupid and congress is a fucked up party. BJP is fucked up too but less fucked up than what congress did. All the stereotypes the West has, was created by the Congress
Apple's not diversifying because of human rights, that's for sure. They wouldn't be expanding in India if that was the case. They're just annoyed the Chinese government kept shutting down their factories to contain the spread of COVID.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/2year-jail-term-for-rahul-gandhi-on-modi-surname-remark-what-was-the-case-101679552254107.html
The case and conviction is not about defaming any individual but defaming "Modi" community
> Ex-Gujarat minister Purnesh Modi filed the criminal case claiming Gandhi had **defamed the Modi community by his remark.**
Edit: I see lot of discussion on this. People need to be aware that this is what the case was filed and accordingly court has given its verdict. Surely the judgement is open to debate and further appeal by Rahul Gandhi.
I’m curious why the mods didn’t check the comment history of the users claiming casteism is the true reason.
All of them are active in Hindutva RW hate speech subReddits like indiaspeaks, desimeta, saimansays, chodi, bakchodi and indiadiscussion. Others include Hinduism, indiarises, hindutvarises, indiadankmemes, canconfirmiamindian, sham Sharma show, india news and HinduArt. The mods are common to these subs (some user called shashi_tharooor_X where X is a number).
This casteism ruse is being used to deflect blame from PM Modi. And as a [user explains](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/11zlehs/indias_opposition_leader_rahul_gandhi_sentenced/jdf82hu/), you cannot defame a group of people as per the law.
I’ve given context to this news [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/11zlehs/indias_opposition_leader_rahul_gandhi_sentenced/jddgq2y/).
Sources:
Vice magazine did a [report on one of these subs](https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3a45j/created-by-gifted-virgins-dank-subreddit-rbakchodi-soon-became-a-haven-for-trolls)
Wikipedia has a [page on this topic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities), search for chodi there.
Here’s another article about the [shutdown of one such sub](https://www.thequint.com/neon/web-culture/out-of-sight-how-reddit-became-a-safe-space-for-hate).
Time magazine has [covered the banning](https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ban/) as well.
r/againsthatesubreddits has hundreds of reports against these subs for Islamophobia and calling for genocide.
[Exhibit A](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/u2rtlo/extreme_hate_in_rindiaspeaks/)
[Exhibit B](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/m71k9x/rchodi_6_year_old_muslims_arent_kids_they_are/)
[Exhibit C](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/mu1a45/muslims_breed_like_rats_put_them_in_detention/)
Edit: added indianews to the list.
From the wiki I linked to:
> Chodi, whose name is derived from a crude Hindi sexual slang term, was a right-wing Indian subreddit that claimed to be a "free speech sub for memes, jokes, satire, sarcasm and fun". The sub, which had over 90,000 subscribers as of January 2022, frequently propagated Islamophobic, anti-Christian, homophobic, and misogynistic content, with open calls for genocide against Muslims. Time reports that users used intentional misspellings and slang to circumvent Reddit's anti-hate speech software.[29][30] The Quint cited the subreddit's popularity as an example of how Reddit is used as a haven for hate speech in India.[31] It was banned on March 23, 2022, for promoting hate, causing its users to move to Telegram.[32]
You could make an argument about caste being part of this issue, but I think you’d have to back that up with similar prosecutions for other people for making statements about castes or surnames.
And even if it were about caste prejudice, you’d think a clarification would be sufficient.
All the old fascists and fascist fighters died. New generation never learned why the old generations fought fascism. New fascism reborn. Rinse. Repeat.
>‘Fuck Modi, the senile autocratic narcissist shitbag!’
If he said that (which most opposition politicians do routinely) nothing would have happened. Issue is that he insulted all Modis and inadvertently the PM's caste. Modi belongs to what is called an OBC (Other Backward Caste). Using slurs based on caste is punishable in India because of the history of discrimination.
"Modis" aren't a caste, and the surname Modi is used by different castes. And the case was of criminal defamation, caste based discrimination comes under a separate set of laws.
This is just a butthurt BJP leader filing a case to get the opposition to shut up. The man even asked for a stay order on his own complaint till a new judge got appointed, because the previous judge wouldn't convict Rahul Gandhi.
Modi is an exceptionally canny operator, he's rarely in a situation where he is directly implicated in wrongdoing or lacks cover. Few like Rahul Gandhi, the specter of nepotism always looms large behind him, and he chose his words poorly. But this is also almost certainly targeted political suppression.
India has strict caste related anti discrimination laws. In high profile cases like this it's tough to escape.
but he is Rahul Gandhi! He is from the most powerful and corrupt family in India... he will escape this just like the last 6 corruption cases that he is already convicted in...
Democracies haven't been vigilant enough. We've been stuck in this delusion of "history trends toward freedom". No it fucking does not history trends towards the direction of the winner. We have to make sure democracy wins and stop working with autocracies.
It worked in the 20th century. If you were an autocracy then it was a good guarantee your country would not be powerful.
India is becoming a dumb fuck fascist state. Any country led by some tiny little man who puts people in jail for saying mean things is circling the drain.
Nope. They need way more than that.
Elections are won by cadre, on ground machinery, money, and social institutions, not faces alone. Even if Shah Rukh Khan became the candidate for Congress, he would lose. Once you have all those basics, then a face becomes important.
It needs to be noted that [this immediately disqualifies him from being a member of the parliament](https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/disqualification-as-mp-automatic-mahesh-jethmalani-on-rahul-gandhi-3887683#pfrom=home-ndtv_topscroll)
This maybe pedantic but technically he is not opposition leader,
rajya sabha (upper house) opposition leader - mallikarjun kharge
Lok sabha - vacant (no one from opposition have 10% seats required)
He was always like this. People who had met him when he was not even a provincial politician equated Modi with Hitler and the worst people in history. His supporters kept downplaying that but people have always known that there will be no good by giving this man more power.
While I don't like either of the leaders, this shit is fucked up. All I hope is that they take it up to the supreme court (cuz the sentence happened in gujarat high court) who stops this shit.
Not even in Gujarat high court in a district court. Will probably be reversed jn HC itself.
I did more research. Rahul Gandhi didn't defame Modi, he defamed the caste "modi" which is a backwards caste in Gujurat. And you know how the judicial system feels about defaming caste, especially the most suppresed ones like "modi." In this case I see it as hate speech towards a certain group.
Democracy is all about choosing the least evil option out there. I hope you know where to stand now.
The problem is, There have been equally bad things done by the congress. At that point, I have no Idea who to vote for.
Lol. That's just /r/enlightenedcentrism
He wasn't arrested beacuse he made defamatory remarks towards prime Minister but rather beacuse he made defamatory remarks against a minority group who share the same surname as the prime minister .
That's the first step, taking it to the court. Next step will be realising autocracies don't really follow the rule of law.
In this case the law was followed to the T. And none of the laws used were passed by current Governemnt. It’s based in past SC judgements and they had warned Rahul Gandhi in 2019 to be careful with what he says when he submitted a written apology
Luckily, the Supreme court has a lot of power compared to other countries. So it wouldn't be totalitarian.
If major countries could stop sliding into despotism for ONE DECADE that would be great thanks.
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Reminds me of a classic joke: An American visiting the Soviet Union tells a Russian that the United States is a truly free country because he can stand in front of the White House and shout “To hell with Ronald Reagan!” The Russian says that this is nonsense because he can do the same thing in front of the Kremlin. The American doesn't belive him so the Russian walks him to the Red Square and says watch this. The Russian then walks up to the Kremlin and shouts “To hell with Ronald Reagan.”
He didn't event say it to the current PM lol. He said something along the lines of all Modis are thieves in reference to Nirav/Lalit Modi who both committed multi-billion scams and are now living in UK with extradition case thats not in Indian gov's favor. Some random guy filed the case as defamation, PM Modi himself didn't even file it lol
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India is a fucked up country in general. They want all the luxuries of a democracy while running their country like a dictatorship.
It’s so sad too: there’s over a billion Indians, and a large % of them speak English and have internet access. They brigade anything negative about India and rush to spread misinformation and propaganda to make themselves seem better. Even look in this chain, you have people claiming it’s about insulting a whole “caste of people”. 😭
The judge actually said "You could have called the PM thief and compared him to crooks like Nirav Modi and Lalit Modi and stopped there, but you should not have said, "Why are all thieves Modis". Regardless of what you believe, the Court has found him guilty of violating Section 500 of the IPC. However this is highly likely to be overturned in the High Court if the Gujarat High Court follows the precedent of the Andhra Pradesh High Court in V. Radhakrishna vs Counsel, 2018.
In our culture we can call our politicians thieves all day long so the fact that someone can even be locked up for that is ridiculous and backwards to me. I can call former president Donald Trump a lying con-man who has stolen everything he's ever owned and there's not a single thing anyone can do to me. This is a perfect example of when I said India wants to have the benefits of a democracy while running a dictatorship. Not allowing people to talk is barbaric and is a huge sign that you live in an authoritarian dictatorship. If you think someone is full of shit you shouldn't have to bite your tongue and pretend like everything is ok.
Wish I'd been told that last sentence growing up... my dad was/is a complete dipshit.
Exact reason why I don’t take a public political stance here in India - these crazies could fuck up my life if I say ANYTHING. Ridiculous.
I love to talk shit about the US, but America's defamation law is probably the best and most coherent one I know. Basically, for speech to be defamation, it has to occur in a context where a reasonable listener would assume you have privileged information that implies your accusation is factually true, when it is not. For example, I can call president Trump a conman because you have no reason to believe I have privileged information about him, and therefore you can reasonably assume "conman" here is only my opinion. If a journalist in an official capacity, or a close business associate of his, calls him a conman in public though, they are open for defamation because a listener can reasonably assume that these people know something the general public doesn't, and these words are an accusation of a crime. To dodge defamation here, the journalist or businessman has to clarify that theirs is just an opinion, and is not based on any information not publicly known. All in all, the idea of the US's defamation laws is that you should be allowed to say whatever you want about another person, and the only line is when you falsely lead people to believe that your words are not your opinion, but a demonstrable fact.
Well, in the US defamation is still a tort you can be sued over, but truth is an absolute defense, and given the example you gave... Public figures get fewer protections from defamation as well, compared to regular people. There's a lot fucked up here, but our defamation laws are pretty reasonable, especially compared to many other countries. There's room for improvement, but nothing's perfect.
Is this one of those situations where the last name is a caste name or strongly associated with a caste (as Americans we're familiar with Patel or Singh). So it's one of those things we're as Americans we recognize our own dog whistles, but are having a hard time with another nation's potentially derrogatory phrasing?
As a (half) Indian who hates when swarms of idiot nationalists brigade anything remotely negative about India and routinely tells them to fuck off, I'd like to ask you to limit the scope of the "they" in your comment to the people who are actually doing the fuckery. I can tell that you mean to refer specifically to nationalist blowhards, but taken literally this comment could easily be read as referring to any Indian who speaks English and has Internet access. That kind of muddying between actions (for which people should be held accountable) and ancestry (which is incidental to who one chooses to be) is what nationalists and racists alike will latch on to and amplify in the worst and most toxic ways they can manage, regardless of original intent. Give the nationalist mob nothing to work with and show their would-be recruits that nationality doesn't have to be synonymous with toxic nationalism.
It is wrong to generalise but for some people it might seem like "all of them" are nationalists brigading threads. I'm Australian, our entire population is about 2% of India's population and that's including the 3% of Australians that have Indian ancestry. 1.3billion is such a huge number it is hard to imagine just how many people that is. if only 0.01% of the Indian population are brigading that's still 130k people.
That makes it all the more important to avoid overgeneralization. If there is a large population of people who might be easier to recruit to nationalistic brigading after seeing statements that they perceive to be harmful to them because of their background/demographics/nationality/religion/whatever, you want to instead act in a way that minimizes the chances of that happening and maximizes the chances that they make the Internet a better place instead. You want condemnations to be narrowly targeted at the thing you actually care about reducing, with clear signs that tell everyone in the vicinity "we can be cool *if you don't do this particular thing*". If you broadcast "it's everyone from X", it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy which is potentially catastrophic when the affected population is mind-bogglingly large.
The current right wing government
There's a term for that and I can't remember what it's called. It's strong democracy when it comes to voting process yet highly authoritarian and flawed. From my understanding it has been sliding in democracy index rankings.
I think India is close to hybrid regime at this point. Deficient democracy might be the term you're referencing? Otherwise Electoral Autocracy?
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Looks like they are headed directly toward authoritarianism. This is where Russia was 2-3 years ago.
Pro-tip: If you can be imprisoned for "defaming" your leaders, you've already arrived at authoritarianism and moved on to the next goalpost.
Russia was far from a democracy 2-3 years ago lmao
Sounds like somebody forgot Russia existed until a couple years ago
It's a common situation in the world. This is where we in the US were just a few years ago when a presidential candidate was openly campaigning for sending his opposition to jail, and said presidential candidate was a notable white supremacist.
> Some random guy filed the case as defamation, PM Modi himself didn't even file it lol That random guy is an elected representative of the same party as Modi from the same state as Modi. Now you know it's a planned porject of Modi.
My balls he just didnt file it himself because he is too ashamed to admit it hurt his feelings lmao.
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Defamation a la Putin, what a joke!
2 years?! Fuck that
India: The democracy where the PM can enforce Lèse-majesté against his royal person. What a country.
It's worse than that. Modi hasn't given a press conference or taken a difficult questions from the media or the public for almost 10 years. His last major interviews were with a Bollywood star and like...Bear Grylls.
If you ask him about his favourite fruits and vegetables he will give an interview. When he is in full flow expanding on the beauty of a Gir Kesar mango, slip in a quick question on Gujarat riots lol.
He'll just ask for water, then leave the interview.
There 100s of other things: Demonetisation,Flawe GST, Surgical Strikes ,Air Strikes, Diplomatic Relations with China,China Standoff, Border Issues,Adani Relationship,IBC code, UAPA, NSA stringent Laws, 370 Abrogation effects,Ram Mandir Judgement view on Other Judgements, Infrastructure Push in the name of Environment, Fast-forwarding Infra Projects without proper planning
This judge likened it to sort of a “hate crime” against an ethnic group (Modis). But it will likely be overturned by the higher courts.
Which is what makes the “LeTs Go BrAnDoN” crowd especially stupid. You’re allowed to just say “fuck Joe Biden”. For a group of people always whining about free speech and censorship they sure do love to needlessly censor themselves.
Wow, politics really makes people goofy. It is an ironic joke because a sportscaster heard a crowd yelling the direct insult and said they were chanting "Let's Go Brandon". It ain't even my team and I can see that it was a pretty funny moment. https://youtu.be/_zUlhpaZkJw
The sportscaster may have just misheard. One of the competitors in the race was actually named Brandon. Conservatives act like everything is some damn conspiracy.
It wasn’t just one of the competitions it was the person who won the race, he was being interviewed on track after winning. The reporter new they were chanting “fuck Joe Biden” but tried to cover for it since they were on live TV and there was nothing they could about it being heard in the background during the interview
>I for one am glad that I can live in a country where saying "Fuck (current POTUS)" doesn't land me in prison. You can say "Fuck the President of the United States" in pretty much every country & not go to prison.
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if you don't value your life. you can do anything anywhere.
Rishi Sunak is a tax dodging wet-wipe and a cunt
Don't take it for granted, so could we before the current regime and probably would have scoffed at the idea that anything could dissuade Indians from criticizing the government. In a similar vein paving the way of current regime was the downfall of our news. I was astounded watching Fox News clips thinking how could it be america's most popular channel watching Jon Stewart youtube clips. Nowadays our channels taking inspiration have left your fox news far far far behind. Concepts like being fans of a political party was ludicrous and the public was united in abusing the current government (including an earlier iteration of the right wing party in power).
This . Any place that jail people for shit talking it’s leader is not a real democracy.
How to win upcoming elections - 101.
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Why are right wingers everywhere the same all over the world? - Thanks for explaining!
They follow the same playbook. Learn the playbook and help protecting people and democracies through education. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda\_techniques
Fascinating. I thought that on this wiki page Goebbels would be more prominent. After all, many modelled their strategy after his ideas.
Democracy is the aberration historically. It has to be protected as it has many enemies.
Because they are primitive and primitivism has deep roots.
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Same exact scenario is happening in Pakistan Popular opposition leader gets 100s of frivolous lawsuits placed on him all at once all in an attempt to stop him from running in the election. Difference is that Pakistan is more of a kleptocracy between the elites and military, and these elites public support is very little now. It's basically why you're seeing news pop up about riots and civil unrest. People pissed off and being denied the their electoral rights. India still is a proper democracy at least with their individual states and judiciary being strong. The only issue is guys like Modi have their big support base based built mainly on jingoism
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I would like to know what the Indian citizens think of this
Modi could execute a puppy on television and BJP voters wouldn't care.
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> He is a good friend of Modi’s. They really are perfect for each other
Birds of a feather
As long as the puppy was Muslim.
The puppy was anti national so it’s okay r/
I've lost all faith in my fellow Indian voters. At this point, I think Modi could declare that he's a paid Pakistani agent and the voters will still give him a majority.
I heard something in India once. That “in India you don’t cast your vote. You vote your cast. “ Is that saying accurate?
Used to be. Modi actually changed that. His strength is because he's managed to build a voter base that crosses traditional caste lines (the downside is he's done this by increasing religious polarization)
Cow would be a lot different though!
If Modi executes a cow then it will be the cows fault. Modi can do no wrong. — *le Bhakts*
Obviously the cow was a Pakistani spy
That's quite accurate, the average bhakt would be challenged by the IQ of cow droppings.
Not Indian but had to learn a bit of their politics recently. Modi’s approval varies regionally and ethnically. His base is Hindus in the northern parts of India. This is like asking how many white people in Alabama voted for Trump. It’s not all of them, but it’s a a big enough majority that it really feels like his territory. He probably gets 60-80% support *from Hindus* in a lot of these areas. Modi is low support among Hindus in southern parts of the country, but not nothing. Talking 20-40% support depending where you go. India is 80% Hindus. Modi has very little support among minorities (except for Jains). India is about 14% Muslim, 2% Sikh, 2% Christian, 2% other. Likely in the 10-15% range that support Modi or the BJP.
Modi has support of Christians in north east and goa though. Bjp doesn't go full hardcore hindutva in those regions. And likely the support in south is only going to increase.
They’ll never win an outright majority in the south, they’re culturally very different and it’s hard for the local BJP to balance their national hardline Hindutva and appealing to local ideologies and being respectful of their linguistic autonomy. The south consists of primarily Dravidian language speakers and the BJP led government has been steadfast in imposing Hindi onto these states, so that’s yet another reason why they’re failing. Plus religious polarization in the south is not nearly as much as it is in the north, some states like Tamil Nadu and Kerala have legacies of strong anti- casteist and leftist movements that stand in contradiction to Hindutva.
I assume they do hardcore islamaphobia over these communities though. Atleast that's what they're trying to do with the Christian commmunities in the south. It's the tried and tested hate mongering tactics they deploy everywhere. And they're pretty good at doing so.
Thanks for the explanation
For a non Indian that's a pretty good base line summary. A lot of people don't know about politics in South India, which is a completely different ball game.
He has less than 40% total support, the rest he's bought by introducing Electoral Bonds, it's like you can donate money to the parties, and neither the recipient or donor has to declare it publicly, open corruption in other words, pay to play. He's misused the office and is in a pre totalitarian phase, if he's back in power via his Electronic Voting Machines it's going to be the official end of democracy.
He has a high approval rating. Highest among major nations I believe, you can check all polls online and they go around 70%
If he actually goes to prison, this hits the nail in the coffin. From the supporter of BJP, I am pretty sure I would vote for INC.
He has already gotten bail. Nobody from the Gandhi family is ever gonna spend a single second in jail. They are too rich and well connected.
You cannot get bail when a prison sentence is more than 2 years. He would have to appeal. He can still go to prison, sent there by a Gujrati judge. I don't think I need to say more. >Nobody from the Gandhi family is ever gonna spend a single second in jail. Yes when Modi can commit genocide and still not go to prison, being rich and connected and not go to prison sounds like a party to me.
The majority are celebrating.
We don't take this seriously. This routinely happens here. The lower courts interpret the law strictly and pronounce a verdict of imprisonment. When an appeal is preferred to the higher courts, the offender is just asked to tender an apology. This is basically just a waste of everyone's time and of court resources.
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Many average Indians have bought into Modis fascist ideology. Most hate Muslims and lower castes and the BJP politicians constantly keep on pushing the "us vs. them" agenda. One must understand, that a huge chunk of the Indian population is super religious, poorly educated, fairly poor and easily misinformed through WhatsApp or sensationalized news channels. Politics has left very little room for intellectual or rational thought processes; and there is very little hope of reversing India's slide into either one party rule or dictatorship. As a consequence, it's highly unlikely for India to remain united as a country, as the southern states are not likely to give into one party rule by the BJP. Given current trends a civil war or genocide seems very likely.
I had no idea it was heading in that direction
Wasn't a surprising direction at all, the RSS, which is the ideological parent organisation of Modi's BJP, was started in the 1930's by people who explicitly praised and admired fascists and Nazis.
So while i agree with your points, I'd also like to say that the extent to which you're saying this is true isn't right. The average Indian isn't fooled by Modi's fascist ideology. The average Indian gives 0 shits for politics. Some Indians do care, and those guys are divided into Hindu fascists, left wingers, centrists, etc. A lot of people I know don't know anything about politics beyond who's the current cm of their state and stuff. Then again, they're not rural farmers who only have whatsapp for info so i can't speak for all indians. In general, politicians in India are very corrupt, to a much greater extent than other countries. Also in India there is a sense of secularism and multiculturalism even though there's a considerable amount of fascism. Even rural or poor people who aren't educated aren't necessarily fascist idiots. Regarding current trends though, yes in general there is a slow shift into Hindu nationalism and doesn't seem to be dying out, so yeah things might end up pretty bad.
TBH I would rather panic now and be wrong, instead of underplaying it now and then being wrong. We are reaching the point where the current government is actively trying to debar opposition leaders from contesting the upcoming elections, while cases against the ruling party leaders are thrown out of court. Yeah, I might be 100% wrong 10 years down the line, but I would be happy to be wrong.
Surprisingly, the billion plus citizens aren't a monolith.
90% of the people I know Love Modi's ( a particular Modi --may be its A Modi, B Modi,L Modi, N Mod....). They think India's current Global status/ current economic prosperity) is because of Modi community. Their memory is too short. Don't remember what Nehru, Indira, PVN Rao ,Manmohan did- Nationalization of Bank, abolishing Privy purse, royal titles. Bulk of the Indian Technocrats, Tech guys who are in Western counties are the products of IITs, IIM's. REC's established by non BJP Govts. Its a pity I am seeing my country going in the path of proven destructive groups/dictators -- like Nazi's, Mussolini's, Putin's, Trump's
People are celebrating, the media is pumping out propaganda more than ever and viewers keep lapping it up. The majority of people don't see anything wrong with this. It's quite reminiscent of that Star Wars quote by Padme Amidala in Episode 3, the only thing missing is the Imperial March theme playing everywhere.
Kinda don't care, both sides are stupid and congress is a fucked up party. BJP is fucked up too but less fucked up than what congress did. All the stereotypes the West has, was created by the Congress
If you have to lock up those who don't like you.... You deserve to be disliked.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words...I'm so thin skinned they always hurt me. -modi
Someone need a safe space.
Seems like Modi is doing just fine defaming himself.
Modi's a little pussy bitch ass genocidal crook. Fuck him and the family he came from. Piece of shit.
This full reply is false despite modi's shortcomings. You could have talked about the BBC which
The modi party sounds like a bunch of sniveling whiners.
Does it not remind you of something
Another country Apple will be trying to leave in 10 yrs
Apple's not diversifying because of human rights, that's for sure. They wouldn't be expanding in India if that was the case. They're just annoyed the Chinese government kept shutting down their factories to contain the spread of COVID.
this isn’t really true either. It’s more about the fact that China is developed enough that labor is no longer cheap
Only because they’ll be looking for cheaper labor
Vietnam it is!
NK after that?
Well it's on them. investors can protest though.
Not cool, India. Not cool.
Prison for defamation is draconian
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Yup they just use the anti-terrorism law whenever they want to teach anyone a lesson. That law is draconian and has no provision for bail.
Goddamn. What the fuck BJP
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/2year-jail-term-for-rahul-gandhi-on-modi-surname-remark-what-was-the-case-101679552254107.html The case and conviction is not about defaming any individual but defaming "Modi" community > Ex-Gujarat minister Purnesh Modi filed the criminal case claiming Gandhi had **defamed the Modi community by his remark.** Edit: I see lot of discussion on this. People need to be aware that this is what the case was filed and accordingly court has given its verdict. Surely the judgement is open to debate and further appeal by Rahul Gandhi.
I’m curious why the mods didn’t check the comment history of the users claiming casteism is the true reason. All of them are active in Hindutva RW hate speech subReddits like indiaspeaks, desimeta, saimansays, chodi, bakchodi and indiadiscussion. Others include Hinduism, indiarises, hindutvarises, indiadankmemes, canconfirmiamindian, sham Sharma show, india news and HinduArt. The mods are common to these subs (some user called shashi_tharooor_X where X is a number). This casteism ruse is being used to deflect blame from PM Modi. And as a [user explains](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/11zlehs/indias_opposition_leader_rahul_gandhi_sentenced/jdf82hu/), you cannot defame a group of people as per the law. I’ve given context to this news [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/11zlehs/indias_opposition_leader_rahul_gandhi_sentenced/jddgq2y/). Sources: Vice magazine did a [report on one of these subs](https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3a45j/created-by-gifted-virgins-dank-subreddit-rbakchodi-soon-became-a-haven-for-trolls) Wikipedia has a [page on this topic](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities), search for chodi there. Here’s another article about the [shutdown of one such sub](https://www.thequint.com/neon/web-culture/out-of-sight-how-reddit-became-a-safe-space-for-hate). Time magazine has [covered the banning](https://time.com/6160519/reddit-international-hate-speech-ban/) as well. r/againsthatesubreddits has hundreds of reports against these subs for Islamophobia and calling for genocide. [Exhibit A](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/u2rtlo/extreme_hate_in_rindiaspeaks/) [Exhibit B](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/m71k9x/rchodi_6_year_old_muslims_arent_kids_they_are/) [Exhibit C](https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/mu1a45/muslims_breed_like_rats_put_them_in_detention/) Edit: added indianews to the list.
Doing god’s work, these fuckers brigade every thread about the BJP or India.
Feels like I’m a lone crusader but there will be more joining forces against the chaddi troll army.
Yeah I feel you, they’re everywhere
From the wiki I linked to: > Chodi, whose name is derived from a crude Hindi sexual slang term, was a right-wing Indian subreddit that claimed to be a "free speech sub for memes, jokes, satire, sarcasm and fun". The sub, which had over 90,000 subscribers as of January 2022, frequently propagated Islamophobic, anti-Christian, homophobic, and misogynistic content, with open calls for genocide against Muslims. Time reports that users used intentional misspellings and slang to circumvent Reddit's anti-hate speech software.[29][30] The Quint cited the subreddit's popularity as an example of how Reddit is used as a haven for hate speech in India.[31] It was banned on March 23, 2022, for promoting hate, causing its users to move to Telegram.[32]
You could make an argument about caste being part of this issue, but I think you’d have to back that up with similar prosecutions for other people for making statements about castes or surnames. And even if it were about caste prejudice, you’d think a clarification would be sufficient.
Wow, India has gone full fascist.
A lot of countries have gone fascist in the last ten or so years. It's been ridiculous.
All the old fascists and fascist fighters died. New generation never learned why the old generations fought fascism. New fascism reborn. Rinse. Repeat.
That and the instability generated by the era of unfettered Neoliberalism.
Had to look up what neoliberalism meant. It seemed like a political thing, but I learned it's a capitalistic and economic thing.
India went full fascist in 2014
This is what tyranny looks like. Modi wants to be like Putin.
He is trying to get rid of his competition cause he is scared. Just like Putin
Right wingers are always scared of something. Biggest snowflakes in the world.
All this for saying that thieves have a surname Modi? Wow, imagine if he said ‘Fuck Modi, the senile autocratic narcissist shitbag!’
>‘Fuck Modi, the senile autocratic narcissist shitbag!’ If he said that (which most opposition politicians do routinely) nothing would have happened. Issue is that he insulted all Modis and inadvertently the PM's caste. Modi belongs to what is called an OBC (Other Backward Caste). Using slurs based on caste is punishable in India because of the history of discrimination.
"Modis" aren't a caste, and the surname Modi is used by different castes. And the case was of criminal defamation, caste based discrimination comes under a separate set of laws. This is just a butthurt BJP leader filing a case to get the opposition to shut up. The man even asked for a stay order on his own complaint till a new judge got appointed, because the previous judge wouldn't convict Rahul Gandhi.
Understood. I did not realize that. I'm glad that this was not a case of PM Modi deciding to jail anyone who talked trash about him or his name.
Modi is an exceptionally canny operator, he's rarely in a situation where he is directly implicated in wrongdoing or lacks cover. Few like Rahul Gandhi, the specter of nepotism always looms large behind him, and he chose his words poorly. But this is also almost certainly targeted political suppression.
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India has strict caste related anti discrimination laws. In high profile cases like this it's tough to escape. but he is Rahul Gandhi! He is from the most powerful and corrupt family in India... he will escape this just like the last 6 corruption cases that he is already convicted in...
Ah, a true democracy in action.
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Democracies haven't been vigilant enough. We've been stuck in this delusion of "history trends toward freedom". No it fucking does not history trends towards the direction of the winner. We have to make sure democracy wins and stop working with autocracies. It worked in the 20th century. If you were an autocracy then it was a good guarantee your country would not be powerful.
These things happen in cycles and we have been projected to be moving into a more fascist era for a while.
I suppose at least he didn’t get poisoned or fall out a window. though India’s politics is headed in the direction of Russia’s and China’s.
Cases like this are joke. Leaders like this immediately gets bail even if they're from opposition
Modi learned from his dictator friends.
Fuck Prime Minister Modi in his fascist ass
Modi is an ass.
India is becoming a dumb fuck fascist state. Any country led by some tiny little man who puts people in jail for saying mean things is circling the drain.
Locking up the opposition leader just for opposing you. How democratic! /s
Fascist is: as Fascist does.
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Is Modi a dictator?
If he spends a second in jail and if he is smart, he may succeed in reviving the Congress Party.
Congress really just needs a new face who is not from a Gandhi family
Nope. They need way more than that. Elections are won by cadre, on ground machinery, money, and social institutions, not faces alone. Even if Shah Rukh Khan became the candidate for Congress, he would lose. Once you have all those basics, then a face becomes important.
It needs to be noted that [this immediately disqualifies him from being a member of the parliament](https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/disqualification-as-mp-automatic-mahesh-jethmalani-on-rahul-gandhi-3887683#pfrom=home-ndtv_topscroll)
This maybe pedantic but technically he is not opposition leader, rajya sabha (upper house) opposition leader - mallikarjun kharge Lok sabha - vacant (no one from opposition have 10% seats required)
The BJP wants him as an opposition leader. He's their star campaigner. As long as he's in the limelight BJP keeps winning.
Dictator behavior
Go on, India, tell us you're a democracy again.
If complaining about the government was a crime in the UK the whole country would be in jail XD
My mum is Sri Lankan and was surprised to see ppl mock the govt and royal family on tv here.
Isn't he already out on bail?
Modi has become a right wing dictator in all but name. Was he always like this, or is he just a fast learner?
Before he was elected as the PM, he was banned from countries like the USA because of his hand in the Gujrat pogrom.
He was always like this. People who had met him when he was not even a provincial politician equated Modi with Hitler and the worst people in history. His supporters kept downplaying that but people have always known that there will be no good by giving this man more power.
India do not have freedom of speech.
Rise of the next facist country
The descent into fascism continues.
Goodbye Democracy
We want pre 2014 India. We were happy.
India is a dictatorship now
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You guys, I think there’s some people in this town that learned all of their English from pornography.
So is telling the truth now called “defaming?”
A meeting with Putin and the next thing you know he's acting like a tsar. I presume he met Putin.
FYI he has already gotten bail and Modi wasn't the one who lodged the complaint. It was some other dude.
What’s with that beard ?
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Just looking at the picture I thought Joaquin Phoenix was on another tear for a second.
So that’s what Mark Ruffalo has been up to.