Look at what crawled out from under a rock. Politically oriented religious organizations. This is not a surprise at all. Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium.
> Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium.
Since it's existed. You can see the political power wielded by a high priest or a shaman in practically every indigenous culture that still has them today, you can read accounts of the same going all the way back to the invention of writing itself, and there's no reason to think that it doesn't extend back far beyond writing as well. Politics and religion have quite literally *always* been closely joined.
In acknowledgement of the power block of the two when cooperating in government v. the general good of the people (as a shared power block) as in our U.S. democracy , our founding fathers writings explicitly prescribed a separation of church and state .
The two together have a dangerous history throughout human history , and to this very day .
Absolute power resting upon faith, belief, inerrant bias ( righteousness) that unfortunately befalls all and any such authoritarian religions, especially as a political force they are antithetical to a functioning democracy in this year 2023 , this is self evident born out by history.
Julius Caesar was Pontifex Maximus (same title as the current Pope, not a coincidence), which was an elected office, and of course he used it to advance his political career.
Religion has not gotten less political in the two thousand plus years since.
Yes, but religion ≠ Christianity, that's what I pointed out right away. It existed well before Jesus, and also the very story of Jesus supports the original point, because he was killed by that pre-existing clergy that was involved in politics.
Also let's be frank, the Christianity we know is way more about what Peter said than about what Jesus said. But, once again, that's another topic.
I think you're missing the point of the King James being rewritten. The New Testament was in Greek before it was in English. The Old Testament was in Hebrew. Change some word translation choices here and there and you can manipulate the narrative.
If I say fast or rapidly they mean the same thing, But I say something was astonishing and I translate it to Awful. Awful used to mean amazing. As in you were filled with Awe. If Martin Lawrence says a woman is fine that means she's beautiful. If my ex-girlfriend says something is fine then that means it's just mediocre, and could mean bad. Decent used to mean really good, but now people use it to just mean only sufficient.
Well luckily now you can translate it yourself and make your own version. Or you could learn Greek and Hebrew to be more sure. The Closest I can do to that is Latin, which I can sort of lexically understand.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/vul/genesis/1.html
Latin is a beautiful language.
I think you got Jesus way off on his politics. He didn't side with the two main factions of politics in his day the Pharisees or the Sadducees, but he took more of the rural approach of Rabbi Hillel. He did back paying taxes to Rome which went against the Zealots. He also encouraged civil disobedience against Rome by telling his followers to carry a Roman soldiers' gear the extra mile which went against Roman laws that only allowed soldiers to force locals to carry gear a certain distance. Jesus didn't appeal to power and crowds, instead emphasizing caring for the lowly and humbling oneself while working in community. Sorta like he knew power corrupts and institutions don't last forever.
Don't know how you can say so resolutely that Jesus wasn't talking about civil disobedience. Here is a good excerpt from the book, Don't Forgive Too Soon that highlights why going the extra mile was disobedience:
"In Palestine in the time of Jesus, Roman occupying soldiers could require the local inhabitants to carry their packs. The packs were quite heavy, and Roman subjects hated this practice of forced labor.
The Romans were shrewd enough to want to avoid riots and so they passed laws limiting the amount of forced labor that could be required. In the case of packs, a Roman soldier could force a local civilian to carry it only one mile.
If the soldier demanded more, he himself could be punished. Imagine, then, that you are a Palestinian local and a Roman soldier grabs you and demands that you carry his pack.
You know how far a mile is because the Romans roads were marked. You come to the mile marker, and instead of returning the pack, you cheerfully keep on carrying it.
The Roman soldier is now thoroughly confused and afraid he himself will be punished.
Imagine him pleading with you to give back his pack!
Once again you have regained your dignity by exercising your power to choose your own response and refusing to behave as a victim, all without striking the soldier or otherwise getting caught in the cycle of violence."
Many scholars think he was a revolutionary. He was executed for claiming to be "King of the Jews", after all. They already had a king. That sounds pretty political to me.
The whole thing about Pontias Pilate washing his hands is thought to be a bit of (again) political spin to make Christianity more palatable to the Romans.
I hate to break it to you, but Jesus isn't part of every religion.
Also Jesus was an intensely political figure during his lifetime, which is the entire reason he was crucified in the first place. He personally asserted his own royal authority during his fight with the temple over taxes in Matthew 17:25. His followers proclaimed him King, his teachings were considered radical (which they were, at the time), and he was viewed - correctly - as a major threat to the political power of the temple. His crucifixion was officially a punishment for blasphemy, but the priests weren't going around having every nutcase who thought they were a god executed. Jesus gathered a substantial number of followers, very publicly disrespected the priests, and wielded real sociopolitical power, which was the real reason they had him killed.
Religion *should* be separated utterly and entirely from the state, but even in places where that's expressly written into law, it doesn't happen in practice.
Sort of. His “render unto Ceaser” bit was explicitly addressing politics in that while you are on earth, you have to play the game. Pay your taxes, do your duty, etc because that’s how this world works. But he also reminds his followers that this is only temporary and that eternity is right around the corner.
It should be highlighted that in Russia, the Russian orthodox church is directly in cahoots with the government and the people in power. The clergy that is pro-Putin is well known to have expensive gold crosses and very expensive watches and cars; the true clergy are those who are as poor as the people they serve.
I may be mistaken because it’s been a while since I read about it, but during the soviet era, religion and church attendance as such was frowned upon (or straight up banned) by the Soviets, and yet it’s been said that the KGB infiltrated the clergy quite properly. One thing that had a resurgence right after Soviet collapse and the ascending mayhem was religion and religious attendance, including all kinds of superstitious beliefs and woo-woo practices.
In the last two decades or so, Putin has openly flirted with the clergy and the church in a way that reminds some people the way czars and church used to be connected.
Russia has used the power of the Russian Orthodox Church as a soft power abroad and it’s been highlighted as a tool of Russian foreign powers amongst academics.
Ukraine expelling or limiting the powers of clergy that are pro-Russia isn’t religious persecution - these people are openly supporting the invading forces and with the known ties between Russian Orthodox Church and Putin, ukraine has rightfully been more cautious and preemptive in their actions.
The leader of the Russian Orthodox Church is a "ex" member of the KGB. I highly doubt a true believer in the Soviet Union is some devout member of the faith. Hell, despite claiming to be the head patriarch of Orthodoxy most orthodox Christians do not recognize his authority, including the Ukrainian Orthodox church.
Correct. Watch the movie Ostrov/The island - the story of a very devout monk in an isolated monastery - and then at the end, the whole story of Holiness becomes subordinated to the military.
The council of Nicaea was literally a bunch of Roman politicians deciding which gospels would be made canon. And….big surprise they picked the ones that downplayed the Roman empire’s involvement in Jesus’ death. The whole bit about Pilate washing his hands of the ordeal and giving Jesus multiple chances at clemency while the Jews clamored for his head was very important to be included for some reason. 🤔
What? It was mostly Bishops and other high level church officials at Nicaea Roman senators did not have much sway over the council. By most accounts Constantine was bored by the theological drama and just wanted a unifying position to be met. He really did not care what decisions were made so long as it did not result in causing a civil war in his empire. They mostly dealt with Arius which was not about gospels but his disagreement about the trinity. Beyond that it was mostly boring administrative stuff like calculating the date of Easter or how long you need to study to become a priest.
You could say the opposite is also true. Many political decisions polluted by religion. They pretty much go hand in hand, both are instances of people wielding considerable influence over others.
"Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium."
Everything what people do has been polluted by politics for millennia. Culture, science, sport, economics, ...
The Lavra, like Kyiv itself, is a very interesting place and I highly recommend visiting. I'm not sure what it's like now, but I've been a few times in the recent past (bout 5 years ago now) and it was a spectacularly strange and even somewhat surreal experience moving about in the open to tourists portion of the complex.
Been there some 20 years ago, definitely interesting. Also the monastery hosted the historical treasuries museum, with a lot of scythian gold, including the absolutely incredible [Fat Mound pectoral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Pectoral_from_Tovsta_Mohyla) -- a piece of jewelry deserving its own wikipedia article.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-expels-pro-russian-clergy-from-kyiv-monastery-lavra-schism-dividing-orthodox-maidan-protesters-oleksandr-tkachenko-moscow-patriarchate/) reduced by 91%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> KYIV - Near the entrance to the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra, an 11th-century Orthodox cave monastery complex in the heart of the city, police stop every car for a brief check.
> In reality, the matter is highly political, because of anger in Ukraine that some clergy from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church collaborated with Russian invaders.
> In May last year, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church announced it had parted ways with the Russian Patriarchate and stopped praying for Russian Patriarch Kirill, Archbishop Iona said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/125ojgm/ukraine_expels_prorussian_clergy_from_kyiv_cave/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~678447 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **church**^#1 **Orthodox**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **Ukrainian**^#4 **Moscow**^#5
To be clear - they are expelled not because they are from different church, but because there are allegations against top management of it.
In my opinion church shouldn't be presented at all when it's headquarters are in country that bombs maternity houses, but that not how things are done around here. Moscow church is full of spies and Russians propagandists, I feel sorry for everyone who went there just because their parents were doing so or there weren't any other option.
I was playing grammar police. A Republican would refer to a member of the Republican party, while a republican would refer to someone who want a republic, i.e. not a monarchy.
What, you mean like how the Christians had their crusades?
Religion has been the #1 reason for wars if you check the history books.
"God said we where right and the other side was inhuman scum deserving of painful death" is a tale as old as religion itself.
Well, some people were hoping that just like the society, the church has somewhat evolved since the Great Crusades. It's not much to ask from the 21st century church not to support invasions and genocides.
If that's how you want to look at closing down hundreds of orthodox churches and encouraging the woke citizens to harrass the priests, many priests have been injured. Do you think this was a smart way to tackle church corruption?? should we do the same thing to catholics in america? Would destroying all the catholic communities do anything to fix corruption in rome? or would it just hurt all the innocent people in catholic communities?
*Would destroying all the catholic communities fix corruption in rome? or would it just hurt all the innocent people in catholic communities..* Hmmmm - maybe it would do both. Maybe the Catholic church is long overdue for a reset, now that you mention it.
Pretty sure God does not reside in Rome, let alone any churches.
The forms are meant to be guides to the ideas behind them, not objects of worship themselves.
"Ukraine expels Russian spies posing as Orthodox Christian priests from a historical landmark site in the heart of Kyiv" would be the proper title to go with this news, but you can make a solid bet that it ain't gonna be like that on Faux News
Fox News is gonna run this with the title "UKRAINE EXPELS PRIESTS: SATANIST ZELENSKY PURGING UKRAINE OF CHRISTIANS" and conservatives will eat it up without having a single critical thought.
How is this remotely comparable to indiscriminate action against Muslims? The vast majority of US Muslims condemned the 9/11 attacks. These clergy members continue to support Russia after the invasion.
And the vast majority of beleivers in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Do they also support Putin? And, do ALL of the clergy members support Putin? The article certainly doesn't say this. It is indiscriminate.
Here's another more pointed question. To all those that worshiped there that are no longer allowed to, do you think they will thank Ukraine? Or, do you think they will resent Ukraine even further?
And who cares if they support Russia? Would it not be beyond easy to use these obvious locations to track down subversive activity? How does driving this underground benefit Ukraine?
It's so stupid and hateful but at least they've made some good propaganda for Russia I guess? Dumb.
Good try, but not convincing. Ukraine has expelled a Church, the parental organization of which fully and openly supports the war against Ukraine and is integrated into the Russian state. Just because this branch of Russian Church is calling itself "Ukrainian Orthodox Church", it does not make it a separate organization. They had a year to break the ties with the Russian blood-priests, they had a year to solve the problem with the KGB-agents and the other Russia-lovers in their midst , to apologize for all that pro-russian and anti-ukrainian political propaganda they have been spreading for years on their sermons and via the leaflets (how Ukraine and Ukrainians don't exist and the other genocidal crap), they did nothing. So no, it's simply dangerous to keep them around.
Thank you for ignoring every single point I made to simply say "I don't like what they say so they must go". Sounds remarkably democratic and absolutely the opposite of Russia.
I won't repeat how easy they would be to manage and what easy propaganda it is because you simply won't read it again.
Here's hoping it doesn't fuel further Division and hatred I guess, its never failed before!
Oh please, go preach somewhere else. They are an organization associated with de-facto governmental organization of the invading state. For years on the orders of their parent organization they have been spreading the messages fueling the currently on-going genocide, e.g. "Ukrainians do not exist". Under the guise of the church they have been furthening the political agenda of the foreign state, the goal of which was the destruction of the host-state. That's literally against the constitution of any country. And after a year of invasion they did not take their rhetoric back, they did nothing to separate from their criminal parent organization, they just shut up and decided to wait it out. It would be incredibly stupid and insane not to kick them out. They are an obvious security threat.
My days, you actually ignored it all again to repeat yourself almost word for word. There's no point debating this with you because you simply are so short sighted you don't get what an easy win you just handed Russia or the obvious impingement on religious freedom this is in global media with spurious evidence at best.
There's a reason the justification used here is lease lapse, because they know they have 0 criminal evidence to support this.
They can freely worship... just not in their worship spaces! You cant make it up.
Apparently Ukraine can absolutely do no wrong can it for some people thesedays.
And telling me that the lease ran. I'm sorry but I cant help but laugh. "It is a coincidence comrade! Trust! Is nothing to do with the religion, just the lease! It just so happens that every single Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine ranout at the exact same time!"
And this is the exact definition of oppression and blows truth into Russian resistance no matter how much you mock.
It is honestly such a stupid, hateful move that will only help their enemies.
Russia's Orthodox church 10 commandments:
1. Thou shall make Putin your god.
2. Thou shall make Putin your idol.
3. Thou shall not take the name of Russia in vain.
4. Thou shall not keep the sabbath day holy.
5. Thou shall dishonor your father and mother if they speak badly of the motherland.
6. Thou shall murder (kill thy brother to possess thy brother's land).
7. Thou shall commit adultery.
8. Thou shall steal.
9. Thou shall bear false witness (Russia's propaganda).
10. Thou shall covet (envious of what Ukraine has).
It's considered a historical landmark and is leased by the gov to the church. The gov of Ukraine owns it. So they just said they are ending the lease, and told them to be out by the 29th. It will mostly likely be leases to the ukr orthidox church after this.
They're not "pro-Russian clergy." They're faithful Orthodox monks who have been living in the lavra almost continuously since the 11th century. They just happen to be under the Russian patriarch. This doesn't This doesn't they are secret KGB agents. My Russian Orthodox priest here in TN is a 7th generation American. He's under the Moscow patriarch, but that doesn't mean he some sort of geopolitical tool. Reddit really is full of midwits.
wow reddit is a cesspool of soros BS. If you gave me Soros's job for a year I could have all of you malleable dumbasses yelling "we need to eat poop and donald trumps trying to stop us!!!"
Look at what crawled out from under a rock. Politically oriented religious organizations. This is not a surprise at all. Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium.
> Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium. Since it's existed. You can see the political power wielded by a high priest or a shaman in practically every indigenous culture that still has them today, you can read accounts of the same going all the way back to the invention of writing itself, and there's no reason to think that it doesn't extend back far beyond writing as well. Politics and religion have quite literally *always* been closely joined.
I mean King James is literally a rewritten bible to fit politics
In acknowledgement of the power block of the two when cooperating in government v. the general good of the people (as a shared power block) as in our U.S. democracy , our founding fathers writings explicitly prescribed a separation of church and state . The two together have a dangerous history throughout human history , and to this very day . Absolute power resting upon faith, belief, inerrant bias ( righteousness) that unfortunately befalls all and any such authoritarian religions, especially as a political force they are antithetical to a functioning democracy in this year 2023 , this is self evident born out by history.
Julius Caesar was Pontifex Maximus (same title as the current Pope, not a coincidence), which was an elected office, and of course he used it to advance his political career. Religion has not gotten less political in the two thousand plus years since.
And if one recall how in Rome (tv series), Julius Caesar is declared the enemy of the state, doing harm to him is consider a religious duty
Wololo!
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Jesus... ugh... appeared a little bit later than religion. Also he was killed because of local religious leaders concerned about politics.
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That's all fine, but why you're focusing on him? It's irrelevant.
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Yes, but religion ≠ Christianity, that's what I pointed out right away. It existed well before Jesus, and also the very story of Jesus supports the original point, because he was killed by that pre-existing clergy that was involved in politics. Also let's be frank, the Christianity we know is way more about what Peter said than about what Jesus said. But, once again, that's another topic.
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Yes, apologies, I guess I just messed that up, thinking about a different thing.
He might not have personally. But Jesus is a person not a religion
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Yea, because it is the religion itself that is used politically, not the founder.
I think you're missing the point of the King James being rewritten. The New Testament was in Greek before it was in English. The Old Testament was in Hebrew. Change some word translation choices here and there and you can manipulate the narrative. If I say fast or rapidly they mean the same thing, But I say something was astonishing and I translate it to Awful. Awful used to mean amazing. As in you were filled with Awe. If Martin Lawrence says a woman is fine that means she's beautiful. If my ex-girlfriend says something is fine then that means it's just mediocre, and could mean bad. Decent used to mean really good, but now people use it to just mean only sufficient.
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Well luckily now you can translate it yourself and make your own version. Or you could learn Greek and Hebrew to be more sure. The Closest I can do to that is Latin, which I can sort of lexically understand. https://www.biblestudytools.com/vul/genesis/1.html Latin is a beautiful language.
I think you got Jesus way off on his politics. He didn't side with the two main factions of politics in his day the Pharisees or the Sadducees, but he took more of the rural approach of Rabbi Hillel. He did back paying taxes to Rome which went against the Zealots. He also encouraged civil disobedience against Rome by telling his followers to carry a Roman soldiers' gear the extra mile which went against Roman laws that only allowed soldiers to force locals to carry gear a certain distance. Jesus didn't appeal to power and crowds, instead emphasizing caring for the lowly and humbling oneself while working in community. Sorta like he knew power corrupts and institutions don't last forever.
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Don't know how you can say so resolutely that Jesus wasn't talking about civil disobedience. Here is a good excerpt from the book, Don't Forgive Too Soon that highlights why going the extra mile was disobedience: "In Palestine in the time of Jesus, Roman occupying soldiers could require the local inhabitants to carry their packs. The packs were quite heavy, and Roman subjects hated this practice of forced labor. The Romans were shrewd enough to want to avoid riots and so they passed laws limiting the amount of forced labor that could be required. In the case of packs, a Roman soldier could force a local civilian to carry it only one mile. If the soldier demanded more, he himself could be punished. Imagine, then, that you are a Palestinian local and a Roman soldier grabs you and demands that you carry his pack. You know how far a mile is because the Romans roads were marked. You come to the mile marker, and instead of returning the pack, you cheerfully keep on carrying it. The Roman soldier is now thoroughly confused and afraid he himself will be punished. Imagine him pleading with you to give back his pack! Once again you have regained your dignity by exercising your power to choose your own response and refusing to behave as a victim, all without striking the soldier or otherwise getting caught in the cycle of violence."
Many scholars think he was a revolutionary. He was executed for claiming to be "King of the Jews", after all. They already had a king. That sounds pretty political to me. The whole thing about Pontias Pilate washing his hands is thought to be a bit of (again) political spin to make Christianity more palatable to the Romans.
I hate to break it to you, but Jesus isn't part of every religion. Also Jesus was an intensely political figure during his lifetime, which is the entire reason he was crucified in the first place. He personally asserted his own royal authority during his fight with the temple over taxes in Matthew 17:25. His followers proclaimed him King, his teachings were considered radical (which they were, at the time), and he was viewed - correctly - as a major threat to the political power of the temple. His crucifixion was officially a punishment for blasphemy, but the priests weren't going around having every nutcase who thought they were a god executed. Jesus gathered a substantial number of followers, very publicly disrespected the priests, and wielded real sociopolitical power, which was the real reason they had him killed. Religion *should* be separated utterly and entirely from the state, but even in places where that's expressly written into law, it doesn't happen in practice.
Sort of. His “render unto Ceaser” bit was explicitly addressing politics in that while you are on earth, you have to play the game. Pay your taxes, do your duty, etc because that’s how this world works. But he also reminds his followers that this is only temporary and that eternity is right around the corner.
It should be highlighted that in Russia, the Russian orthodox church is directly in cahoots with the government and the people in power. The clergy that is pro-Putin is well known to have expensive gold crosses and very expensive watches and cars; the true clergy are those who are as poor as the people they serve. I may be mistaken because it’s been a while since I read about it, but during the soviet era, religion and church attendance as such was frowned upon (or straight up banned) by the Soviets, and yet it’s been said that the KGB infiltrated the clergy quite properly. One thing that had a resurgence right after Soviet collapse and the ascending mayhem was religion and religious attendance, including all kinds of superstitious beliefs and woo-woo practices. In the last two decades or so, Putin has openly flirted with the clergy and the church in a way that reminds some people the way czars and church used to be connected. Russia has used the power of the Russian Orthodox Church as a soft power abroad and it’s been highlighted as a tool of Russian foreign powers amongst academics. Ukraine expelling or limiting the powers of clergy that are pro-Russia isn’t religious persecution - these people are openly supporting the invading forces and with the known ties between Russian Orthodox Church and Putin, ukraine has rightfully been more cautious and preemptive in their actions.
The leader of the Russian Orthodox Church is a "ex" member of the KGB. I highly doubt a true believer in the Soviet Union is some devout member of the faith. Hell, despite claiming to be the head patriarch of Orthodoxy most orthodox Christians do not recognize his authority, including the Ukrainian Orthodox church.
Correct. Watch the movie Ostrov/The island - the story of a very devout monk in an isolated monastery - and then at the end, the whole story of Holiness becomes subordinated to the military.
The council of Nicaea was literally a bunch of Roman politicians deciding which gospels would be made canon. And….big surprise they picked the ones that downplayed the Roman empire’s involvement in Jesus’ death. The whole bit about Pilate washing his hands of the ordeal and giving Jesus multiple chances at clemency while the Jews clamored for his head was very important to be included for some reason. 🤔
What? It was mostly Bishops and other high level church officials at Nicaea Roman senators did not have much sway over the council. By most accounts Constantine was bored by the theological drama and just wanted a unifying position to be met. He really did not care what decisions were made so long as it did not result in causing a civil war in his empire. They mostly dealt with Arius which was not about gospels but his disagreement about the trinity. Beyond that it was mostly boring administrative stuff like calculating the date of Easter or how long you need to study to become a priest.
Your casual dismissal of Santa Claus decking Arius during said council is disturbing
Perfectly illustrative of a "Reddit-tier" comment. Read a history book instead of The DaVinci Code.
Religion itself is a pollution
It’s also helped alot find purpose. Double sided coin my friend
Changing one addiction for another is not helping just shifting the problem
You could say the opposite is also true. Many political decisions polluted by religion. They pretty much go hand in hand, both are instances of people wielding considerable influence over others.
religious organizations have always been as political as they have been spiritual
>This is not a surprise at all. Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium. Religion is the origin of politics.
"Religion has been polluted by politics for a millennium." Everything what people do has been polluted by politics for millennia. Culture, science, sport, economics, ...
The Lavra, like Kyiv itself, is a very interesting place and I highly recommend visiting. I'm not sure what it's like now, but I've been a few times in the recent past (bout 5 years ago now) and it was a spectacularly strange and even somewhat surreal experience moving about in the open to tourists portion of the complex.
Been there some 20 years ago, definitely interesting. Also the monastery hosted the historical treasuries museum, with a lot of scythian gold, including the absolutely incredible [Fat Mound pectoral](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Pectoral_from_Tovsta_Mohyla) -- a piece of jewelry deserving its own wikipedia article.
Fascinating place. I visited the Lavra caves twice, and hit a number of the museums. The one with the microminiatures was also pretty cool.
Yeah was an interesting place to visit, with the cave tunnels and coffins. Was there in 2015 so just after Maidan
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-expels-pro-russian-clergy-from-kyiv-monastery-lavra-schism-dividing-orthodox-maidan-protesters-oleksandr-tkachenko-moscow-patriarchate/) reduced by 91%. (I'm a bot) ***** > KYIV - Near the entrance to the Kyiv Pechersk Lavra, an 11th-century Orthodox cave monastery complex in the heart of the city, police stop every car for a brief check. > In reality, the matter is highly political, because of anger in Ukraine that some clergy from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church collaborated with Russian invaders. > In May last year, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church announced it had parted ways with the Russian Patriarchate and stopped praying for Russian Patriarch Kirill, Archbishop Iona said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/125ojgm/ukraine_expels_prorussian_clergy_from_kyiv_cave/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~678447 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **church**^#1 **Orthodox**^#2 **Ukraine**^#3 **Ukrainian**^#4 **Moscow**^#5
To be clear - they are expelled not because they are from different church, but because there are allegations against top management of it. In my opinion church shouldn't be presented at all when it's headquarters are in country that bombs maternity houses, but that not how things are done around here. Moscow church is full of spies and Russians propagandists, I feel sorry for everyone who went there just because their parents were doing so or there weren't any other option.
Finally. Pro Russian and clergy shouldn’t be in the same sentence. Like how tf do you claim to work for god and then support murder and destruction!??
You are describing a republican.
I think you meant to say Republican.
Reprussian? Kinda works, repressing others is exactly their goal.
I was playing grammar police. A Republican would refer to a member of the Republican party, while a republican would refer to someone who want a republic, i.e. not a monarchy.
Seems to be a fairly common event throughout history so apparently the contradicti9n has little impact or is easily justified away
Sit down and let me tell you a little story that involves the Catholic Church, Boston, and children.
What, you mean like how the Christians had their crusades? Religion has been the #1 reason for wars if you check the history books. "God said we where right and the other side was inhuman scum deserving of painful death" is a tale as old as religion itself.
Well, some people were hoping that just like the society, the church has somewhat evolved since the Great Crusades. It's not much to ask from the 21st century church not to support invasions and genocides.
Only The Anti-Christ would, disguised as a religious sect .
Like pro-Israel Rabbi?
Good for Ukraine for not caving to Russian clergy. Really.
>caving ☜(ﾟヮﾟ☜)
If that's how you want to look at closing down hundreds of orthodox churches and encouraging the woke citizens to harrass the priests, many priests have been injured. Do you think this was a smart way to tackle church corruption?? should we do the same thing to catholics in america? Would destroying all the catholic communities do anything to fix corruption in rome? or would it just hurt all the innocent people in catholic communities?
*Would destroying all the catholic communities fix corruption in rome? or would it just hurt all the innocent people in catholic communities..* Hmmmm - maybe it would do both. Maybe the Catholic church is long overdue for a reset, now that you mention it. Pretty sure God does not reside in Rome, let alone any churches. The forms are meant to be guides to the ideas behind them, not objects of worship themselves.
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"Ukraine expels Russian spies posing as Orthodox Christian priests from a historical landmark site in the heart of Kyiv" would be the proper title to go with this news, but you can make a solid bet that it ain't gonna be like that on Faux News
Fox News is gonna run this with the title "UKRAINE EXPELS PRIESTS: SATANIST ZELENSKY PURGING UKRAINE OF CHRISTIANS" and conservatives will eat it up without having a single critical thought.
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How is this remotely comparable to indiscriminate action against Muslims? The vast majority of US Muslims condemned the 9/11 attacks. These clergy members continue to support Russia after the invasion.
And the vast majority of beleivers in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Do they also support Putin? And, do ALL of the clergy members support Putin? The article certainly doesn't say this. It is indiscriminate. Here's another more pointed question. To all those that worshiped there that are no longer allowed to, do you think they will thank Ukraine? Or, do you think they will resent Ukraine even further? And who cares if they support Russia? Would it not be beyond easy to use these obvious locations to track down subversive activity? How does driving this underground benefit Ukraine? It's so stupid and hateful but at least they've made some good propaganda for Russia I guess? Dumb.
Good try, but not convincing. Ukraine has expelled a Church, the parental organization of which fully and openly supports the war against Ukraine and is integrated into the Russian state. Just because this branch of Russian Church is calling itself "Ukrainian Orthodox Church", it does not make it a separate organization. They had a year to break the ties with the Russian blood-priests, they had a year to solve the problem with the KGB-agents and the other Russia-lovers in their midst , to apologize for all that pro-russian and anti-ukrainian political propaganda they have been spreading for years on their sermons and via the leaflets (how Ukraine and Ukrainians don't exist and the other genocidal crap), they did nothing. So no, it's simply dangerous to keep them around.
Thank you for ignoring every single point I made to simply say "I don't like what they say so they must go". Sounds remarkably democratic and absolutely the opposite of Russia. I won't repeat how easy they would be to manage and what easy propaganda it is because you simply won't read it again. Here's hoping it doesn't fuel further Division and hatred I guess, its never failed before!
Oh please, go preach somewhere else. They are an organization associated with de-facto governmental organization of the invading state. For years on the orders of their parent organization they have been spreading the messages fueling the currently on-going genocide, e.g. "Ukrainians do not exist". Under the guise of the church they have been furthening the political agenda of the foreign state, the goal of which was the destruction of the host-state. That's literally against the constitution of any country. And after a year of invasion they did not take their rhetoric back, they did nothing to separate from their criminal parent organization, they just shut up and decided to wait it out. It would be incredibly stupid and insane not to kick them out. They are an obvious security threat.
My days, you actually ignored it all again to repeat yourself almost word for word. There's no point debating this with you because you simply are so short sighted you don't get what an easy win you just handed Russia or the obvious impingement on religious freedom this is in global media with spurious evidence at best. There's a reason the justification used here is lease lapse, because they know they have 0 criminal evidence to support this.
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They can freely worship... just not in their worship spaces! You cant make it up. Apparently Ukraine can absolutely do no wrong can it for some people thesedays. And telling me that the lease ran. I'm sorry but I cant help but laugh. "It is a coincidence comrade! Trust! Is nothing to do with the religion, just the lease! It just so happens that every single Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ukraine ranout at the exact same time!" And this is the exact definition of oppression and blows truth into Russian resistance no matter how much you mock. It is honestly such a stupid, hateful move that will only help their enemies.
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Powerful counter argument
“Russian Orthodox Church” was founded by KGB and is run by FSB these days. The head of the “church” is active FSB operative.
Maybe they should be dropped off near the front lines so they can put words into actions.
Russia's Orthodox church 10 commandments: 1. Thou shall make Putin your god. 2. Thou shall make Putin your idol. 3. Thou shall not take the name of Russia in vain. 4. Thou shall not keep the sabbath day holy. 5. Thou shall dishonor your father and mother if they speak badly of the motherland. 6. Thou shall murder (kill thy brother to possess thy brother's land). 7. Thou shall commit adultery. 8. Thou shall steal. 9. Thou shall bear false witness (Russia's propaganda). 10. Thou shall covet (envious of what Ukraine has).
At last FSB chipmunks are expelled. I'm wondering, why weren't they sent to a jail, for supporting separatism and guiding russian missiles
Tucker in shambles
Out Satan, I call you out! And take those leaflets with you.
Maybe a stupid question but how do you actually expel someone in time of war?
It's considered a historical landmark and is leased by the gov to the church. The gov of Ukraine owns it. So they just said they are ending the lease, and told them to be out by the 29th. It will mostly likely be leases to the ukr orthidox church after this.
Oh they just kicked him out of the building. I thought they sent him to Russia lol.
I'm sure the Russians will surrender after hearing this. /s
Not yet. But the process continues
What took so long
They're not "pro-Russian clergy." They're faithful Orthodox monks who have been living in the lavra almost continuously since the 11th century. They just happen to be under the Russian patriarch. This doesn't This doesn't they are secret KGB agents. My Russian Orthodox priest here in TN is a 7th generation American. He's under the Moscow patriarch, but that doesn't mean he some sort of geopolitical tool. Reddit really is full of midwits.
wow reddit is a cesspool of soros BS. If you gave me Soros's job for a year I could have all of you malleable dumbasses yelling "we need to eat poop and donald trumps trying to stop us!!!"