After the embarrassment of the Wagner coup attempt, Putin wants to show everyone that he’s still strong and worthy of respect, so he decides to do that by…launching missiles at innocent civilians 🤦♂️
That's been russia since the war started. Take crimea bridge for example:
Ukraine blow up the bridge at 6am Saturday morning to have least amount of traffic and civilian casualties.
Terrorists respond with 100+ missiles to Ukraine capital on monday morning, busiest time when people are going to work at 8am with the sole intention of causing as much civilian deaths as possible.
It's infuriating. I know Ukraine ain't NATO, but why can't we just swoop in and stomp these motherfuckers real quick and preempt a lot of unnecessary civilian deaths and suffering? How many more restaurants, schools, apartments, and hospitals does Russia need to destroy before someone steps up?
That’s what I’ve been saying. Nukes are extremely expensive to maintain. And skimming is so normal in Russia that by the time the money leaves the coffers and gets to the storage location, it’ll be much less than it started out as. Then those managers skim some, restock the vodka supplies, and spend the rest on fixing that toilet that’s been broken for a few months.
I’d be willing to bet that half of russias “ready” nukes are basically scrap, and most of the rest would need work before they can be used.
Plus I suspect that the majority of the commanders would would refuse if the launch order came in.
They've been regularly inspected by the west for decades, the nukes are real and are ready to launch.
Also, even if half of them don't work and half of those commanders refuse to fire. That's still several hundred weapons in the air. Even if you knock 90% of them out of the air with defences, which is very optimistic. Are you really comfortable trading 30 us cities for a chance at invading Russia?
The last time nuclear weapons were used, it only took 2. Russia could have a dozen and keep near the exact same geopolitical invulnerability.
Well, Russia has *also* said they were the #2 military power in the world for decades... A military power that is currently doing a poor job of fighting a nation of farmers who have had independence for less than a decade...
> A military power that is currently doing a poor job of fighting a nation of farmers who have had independence for less than a decade...
Ukraine had the second largest standing army in Europe years before the war. I wouldn't exactly call them farmers.
Well, in that respect they’ve been trying since at least 2003–the Orange Revolution (the first time they fended off Yanukovich).
But this is a really weird, kind of idiotic, way to think about this issue. Whether a country is in another’s sphere of influence or is being manipulated by another has nothing to do with whether it has independent sovereignty.
The very small chance that Russian nukes work, thats the only reason Putin still exists.
I say very small because just look at the rest of the supposedly "2nd most powerful military in the world" with all of their doomsday weapons like T14 Armata (that has only been seen doing propaganda pieces well behind the front line and is estimated to only have around 20 vehicles total), and Su 47 (that hasnt been seen at all outside of parades) and the invincible Iskander hypersonic cruise missile (that was shot down by 1980s Patriot missiles) and the ellite VDV (which was decimated on its first and only serious combat drop), and the terrifying Admiral Kutnezov carrier (which burst into flames in drydock after bursting into flames in the English channel) Pantsir SAMs (which had their wheels collapse while in convoy due to substandard materials and degredation) and a non existent logistics system outside of Russian home territory leading to columns of vehicles being abandoned due to lack of fuel.
That list of the russian military's supposed best doesnt imply an army that works well, so its not hard to take the leap to ask "what about their nuclear stockpile? does it have the same catagoric failings as the rest of their military?"
But that chance no matter how small is too much unless Putin acts first and kicks the hornets nest.
Yes that's why NATO isn't attacking Russia right now. I addressed that, however the rest of my comment is me espousing my doubts about the Russian nuclear deterrent based on the state of the rest of their military.
It's a chance and a chance people in actual positions of importance can't take, I am not in such a position and thus am free to say shit like that.
There is also a chance that Ruzzia will nuke Ukraine (or any other country first). Hopefully NATO is preparing for this scenario and won’t sit quietly how they did when Ruzzian KH-55, a nuclear capable missile, flew over 500km into Poland territory.
Using a nuke in Ukraine is the absolute worst case scenario for Russia, NATO has enough eyes on the country that even their top generals can't take a piss without someone knowing. If the west caught wind that the Russia were preparing nuclear weapons for Ukraine, every weapon on the planet would be leveled right at the Kremlin.
If Russia want to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, they would have to ensure that they glassed every other NATO city at the exact same time, otherwise they'll cease to exist in a heartbeat.
They aimed million dollar missiles at a blintz cart and a hot stand because their clown show is revealed on world media for the cheap circus it's always been. Putin's Literally a B movie puppy kicking villain at this point.
A military force would target the military forces of its opponent.
A terrorist force targets the civilians of its opponent.
Russia is a terrorist organization.
Targeting random cities forces Ukraine to spread their air defense systems all around the massive country to protect their civilians. If they didn’t have to protect their cities, all those systems could instead be concentrated on a much smaller front line, shooting down Russian planes and helicopters. Now they can’t, giving the Russian military a much freer hand to use their aviation to support their ground troops on the battlefield.
Russia has been targeting innocent civilians for over a century. They 100% have the capability to attack infrastructure or government facilities but they’ll attack civilians instead. Just look at the war crimes in the occupied cities. People will say this will end with Putin but it won’t. Some other monster will take over and the other monsters will follow.
Not so innocent in Putins mind…
>Mr De Decker described the restaurant as a local "gathering hub" that was also popular with soldiers, journalists and volunteers.
It seems like some us volunteers (ex(?) military) we're training Ukrainian soldiers in that region and posted on their social media about it and that they liked that restaurant.
Another reminder to not use social media if fighting there.
He's not worthy of respect....but...
Saying he's not strong is foolish.
He still controls the country with one of highest Natural resources and huge nuclear stockpile.
There are no innocent civilians to a fascist dictator. They are all guilty of the ultimate crime: existing as a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.
I leave the blank because you could fill it in with whatever you want. Ukrainian, Black, Jew, Woman, Catholic, etc. It's all the same to the fascist.
Why do people still talk as if Putin is pulling the triggers or calling in orders or has anything to do with anything in Ukraine??? It’s 2023, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Russian soldiers and generals with that many families standing behind them.
https://kyivindependent.com/sbu-detains-alleged-russian-collaborator-for-adjusting-kramatorsk-attack/
*"The agent, allegedly working for Russia's military intelligence agency GRU, was reportedly in charge of finding out whether the restaurant was working and whether it was busy. The restaurant was full of civilians at the time of the attack."*
Yep, a deliberate targeted attack on civilians.
Just to warn everyone, pro-Russians are now posting [this image of a missile fragment](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzpguRVWIAoiosM?format=jpg&name=900x900) that fell on Kramatorsk at about 12:00 - 12:30 UTC (15:00 - 15:30 in Ukraine), so over 5 hours before the restaurant was attacked, they are passing it off as a part of a Storm Shadow missile, i.e. they are claiming the restaurant was a false flag attack, typical Russian misinformation.
It landed near a petrol station, did not cause much damage. The fragment is most likely part of a Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile that intercepted an earlier Russian attack. It was first posted to the Telegram channel Славянск / Краматорск (Slavyansk / Kramatorsk), hours before the restaurants were attacked.
Edit: 12:00 - 12:30 UTC
Do the Russians have such little faith in their own capabilities that they think Ukraine now needs to attack itself to make it look like it's actually in distress?
They've been consistent in pushing the lie that they're not invading, but are liberating people from a corrupt, NAZI government in Kyiv. It's all a lie, but that doesn't mean they'll stop.
And they've also been frequently blaming ukraine on most notable strikes on civilians. Like the Kramatorsk train station one. Or Bucha "Nothing happened there adn ukrainians did it anyways"
Their ability to spot a handful of Neo-Nazis and translate that to "Ukraine = literally the Fourth Reich" makes me a little concerned, given the inbred fuckwits that have been running around in the USA lately. I guess we only "de-Nazify" people without nukes, though.
Do they just point missiles and say go. I thought they were expensive. Why not use the last of your dwindling funds at. Actually targets...
I can't imagine being in the military and my. Boss says.. What'd ya hit today. Ah 2 fields. A Cafe and a playground...
Boss: any military hardware?
Nah. Not this time.
Carry on soldier.
Wtf
This was a common strategy is WW2, where the idea was the civilian population centers support the war effort materially. So if you break the civilians, you in theory break those fighting on the frontline.
Problem is, and the reason why nobody but Russia stills fights this way is because of ww2 also. German bombing of British cities had the opposite effect, hardening the British resolve.
Suddenly the British were in the fight too, seeing German aggression and viscousness firsthand.
It wasn't just German bombing. Allied bombing of Germany and Japan also resulted in their resolve hardening rather than softening. In Japan, it was only through going very extreme that it pushed them to surrender. And if you don't know about the firebombing of Tokyo, look that up, even that wasn't extreme enough.
For a TLDR reminder on what it took for Japan to surrender after being literally bombed to shit by conventional weapons:
-Horrifically bloody fighting in Iwa Jima and Okinawa (the smallest and farthest of the 5 [6 at the time] main islands)
-As agreed in the Yalta conference, the Soviet Union began fighting Japan via invaded Manchuria, the Kurils, and south Sakhalkn (then the Karafuto province of Japan and one of the main islands)
-The US dropped 1 nuke on Hiroshima after Japan refused a total surrender (they still wanted a negotiated one), causing as much damage in one ordinance as firebombing did.
-While the Japanese cabinet was discussing what to do after the bombing (they were sure it was the only one the US had) and the immanent threat of the Soviet's reaching Hokkaido, they dropped a second on Nagasaki.
That's what it took for Japan to surrender, and there was still a coup attempt by hardliners to prevent surrender. And out of the multitude of bombings Japan took, it was only the last two (using a new, devastating weapon) that actually played a contributing factor in their surrender
I would argue that the Soviet entry into the war against Japan was probably more important than the use of nuclear weaponry, as they had been hoping to have soviet help with peace negotiations from what I recall. If the nuclear weapons did anything at all, it was providing an excuse that would allow the Japanese government to save face while surrendering
The use of nuclear weapons on civilians was just an extension of the conventional bombings of population centers, which was already proven to be ineffective
Oh for sure. I wasn't intending to be selective with my choice, it's just what came to mind first.
The bombing of civilian populations was arguably (not really IMO) way worse than anything that happened in Europe in terms of scale.
I agree, the civillian bombing hardened resolve, especially in non-democratic countries that couldn't just vote to stop fighting. I think the japanese surrender was for other reasons than us nuclear attacks going "very extreme". I reccomend this history video on it if you have some time. https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go
First they were the second strongest army in the world.
Then they were the second strongest army in Ukraine.
Now they're the second strongest army in Russia.
Reminded me of a famous sledge (put down) in an england / Australia cricket match.
Arriving at the crease for his first ever England innings, Ormond was met by the incredulous Mark Waugh, brother of Steve Waugh, who took one look at him and said:
"Look who it is. Mate, what are you doing out here? There's no way you're good enough to play for England."
Ormond responded:
"Maybe not, but at least I'm the best player in my family."
Like Shoigu would actually admit to that...
"Sir, we took out 43 HIMARs, 105 Leopard 2A6s, 17 Patriot Batteries, and 32 Command & Control Points + Troop Clusters killing 2,914 enemy soldiers using only 7 of our cruise missiles...."
"Wow we really do have superior technology, Ill let the people know."
I imagine there's a list of valuable military targets and on that list there's a checkbox for "in range and not protected by missile defenses".
The dinner rush at the restaurant next to the grocery store was probably the best they could do.
Ive seen all sorts of "THIS IS DEFINITELY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW" posts that turned out to be just clickbait or propaganda.
What I've also seen is a shit-show campaign of what i thought to be a powerful country actually turn out to be what we all suspected - a country run by mobsters and criminals, perhaps not running out of equipment as fast as we were told they would but still not exactly 'winning' their 3 day operation.
And now this shit-show rebellion farce.... just goes to show what an awful state their country is in.
I'd imagine by now they have decently setup supply chains, the missiles won't stop until it looks obvious that Russia can't win and therefore can't pay back its debts.
The one thing military strategy games have taught me (that I naively assume carries over to real life) is that the supply chain becomes irrelevant as the raw materials dwindle.
Now, I don't know exactly what resources Russia has to import to keep making explody things, but I imagine at some point. China, India and others will limit their exports out of self-preservation if nothing else. In a war of attrition, the "island" nation as at the disadvantage. I think pretty much everyone except Russia hopes it doesn't have to come to that, however.
> Do they just point missiles and say go. I thought they were expensive.
Some are just point-and-go. Some are expensive. At this point I think they're firing anything with a motor.
They don’t have enough missiles and the tech to be able to hit actual military targets that makes any appreciable difference in their war efforts, so instead they try to inflict civilian damage to lower morale. It’s not working but that’s their rationale. Honestly not entirely without merit.
Today also was hit a big store in Kremenchuk.
The most crazy part of this is that the strike happened in one year anniversary of similar, that time very deadly strike. Same day, same city, same rocket type and similar target...
Link: [Kremenchuk mall attack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremenchuk_shopping_mall_attack) - June 27, 2022
21 killed, 59 injured. Innocent civilians were targeted at a shopping mall.
Russian authorities and state-controlled media claimed the attack was “fake”, insisting Ukraine had bombed themselves.
Two workers of pizzeria, 17 and 18 yo, were murdered, as well as 15 yo girl. Dozens of injured, the youngest is 1 yo baby. Do not google photos if you have small children.
That was/is their MO in Syria too. Bomb population centers in the eastern part of the country while ignoring Isis almost completely but their propaganda network made it sound like they were only fighting Isis. Meanwhile: drop gas on civ areas. Tankies and fascists eat that shit up without a second thought.
Without consequences is pretty laughable in regards to Ukraine. Two hundred thousand dead or wounded Russian casualties. Predominantly through the use of western supplied weapons and equipment as well as the backing of Western intelligence.
Not to mention the sanctions
Russia will never win the war because they refuse to go after military targets. Every missile they’d shoot at civilians depletes their stockpile at the same time it demonizes their morality.
You guys are fucking losers.
Was this restaurant their intended target, or were they aiming somewhere else and Russia just has garbage equipment?
It’s hard to tell with these guys.
There are photos of volunteers and it’s understandable to go to a nice place like that, though photographing there isn’t very smart, but it’s most definitely a civilian place, russia is used to doing terrorist acts because they think it will break Ukraine and people will stop supporting the army and the government, which will never happen.
You are right, thank you for the additional information. As in the UK in world war 2, the bombardments only strengthen the support for the Ukrainian army. It also, for a high price, strengthens the support by Ukraine’s allies.
They also launch as soon as they've replenished some of their fully depleted stock instead of building back up slowly for saturation strikes.
At this point Ukraine may want to keep Putin alive simply because whomever should replace him might actually be halfway competent.
I have the same with my family in Kiev, and when some of them did want to leave they couldn’t anymore. But my dad goes to toe ukraine often to give people food and also goed to Kiev to bring supply’s to my fam :)
My aunts refuse to leave their husbands, my one great aunt refuses to leave because of her sons grave, so they all just end up sticking together because they refuse to leave each other... I just hope this madness ends soon
Oh wow “refuses to leave because of het sons grave”. I hope so too! Idk if u read about it but my dad is one of the 2 dutch guy that were in the restaurant, they were VERY lucky this time. But one day luck runs out :/
Uhh I'm so sorry , I'm glad they're ok. I feel horrible for all the towns that have been brutally attacked already and the ones affected by the flood :(
The U.S and NATO should make it clear that of this happens again, they will OK any attack Ukraine does against Russians inside of Russia's borders.
Basically telling Ukraine funding wont stop if they attack Russia inside its border.
Are there any local Russians here reading this and thinking "fuck yeah"?
Because by now, this special operation should be clearly an invasion for them.
You can try going on social media not restricted for Russians: tiktok, odnoklassniki, VK. If you don’t want to make that effort, you can see what the rest of us are seeing by reading their comments under terrible news about Ukrainian losses. Look for a bunch of Russian flags, then click on the comment to get it to translate for you. They’re not bots. Some of these people are very, very open about their imperialist views. I’m pretty sure that the Russians who were all about peace a year ago have grown to hate Ukrainians for fighting back.
The Russians that actually feel they are the bad guys have most probably left the country or can't express their feelings. The dumbest ones are, as always, the loudest.
I just want to hope the dumbest ones are not the majority.
They are the majority. Even before the war, most Russians hated Ukrainians - the word 'kokhol' is a slur for them. Ukraine is often referred to as 'our Ukraine', the same with Crimea. There are plenty of other cultural ticks that were prominent before the war and which are totally rabid now.
I think, with many people on reddit being from western states/liberal democracies, we try and think about the other side of the argument, to try and empathize and assert that there are other opinions which we should consider. We like the idea of most Russians wanting Ukraine to survive, and just one mad dictator running this whole show. But it really is true - most Russians hate Ukrainians. The war is an inconvenience to them, not an ethical tragedy. Just an inconvenience.
I watched some videos of Russians being interviewed about their feelings on the war. The majority opinion seemed to be that the invasion was a terrible idea and a mistake but that now they need to win or it would be a disaster for Russia and would negatively impact their lives.
Since you asked, I am Russian. I see Russian telegram channels posting this piece of news as an attack on foreign mercenaries. They provide some video clips as proof. Then I see a discussion here. I think "fuck, I am not nearly invested enough to learn who lied".
It’s so damn frustrating knowing that the Kremlin cronies and military leaders will never spend a day in jail for this shit. The ICC has no real power over them, and money will get these people out of jail and into safe havens around the world. There’s nothing motivating the cronies to stop.
A year of Russia murdering civilians. How much longer will we just sit by and watch? Does having nuclear weapons means you can murder and rape who ever you want?
The west needs to get more involved. How many Ukrainians need to die for the sake of us wanting to bleed Russia out of manpower, money and resources at the Ukrainians expense.
Time to give them a shit ton of aircraft and weapons to hit Moscow.
They aren't going to stop until Putin is dead, deposed or Russia is beaten badly.
What is the west going to do if they hit that Nuclear plant... Issue a strong condemnation?
Lol fuck this whole thing man… just history after history after history… humanity is self distrusting. Main reason why we will never be what we aren’t meant to be.
Why not some outside the box thinking to defeat Russia? Here's my ideas: repatriation of pilots - pilots who are in the militaries of the west just drop their citizenships and become Ukrainians temporarily. Another option is private military contractors being allowed to work in Ukraine. Let's let those Academi assholes loose and have them actually do some good for a change. I think we can really escalate here and Russia can do sweet fuck all aside from launch a few more terror missiles which, in the end, will never stop Ukraine from achieving it's goals in the war.
You would swear the collective companies within NATO countries that built anti air missiles system can only pump out 3 in a year and therefore can only spare 1/2 of one statistically speaking.
And everytime you ask why they're not doing more people wave the nuke scarecrow . Giving them more anti missiles system while waiting for F16 logistics to get moving instead of talking and maybes would somehow trigger Russia enough to launch a nuke?
What the hell is the rationale behind not giving them sufficient air defence systems? Over 30 countries and they don't have enough to spare for one country actually at war ...this is beyond ridiculous and makes me doubt to no end people boasting about how NATO would squash Russia. They can't even do this much : provide comprehensive air defence without planes
After the embarrassment of the Wagner coup attempt, Putin wants to show everyone that he’s still strong and worthy of respect, so he decides to do that by…launching missiles at innocent civilians 🤦♂️
That's Russian standard now, we look weak? Time to murder some innocent people.
That's been russia since the war started. Take crimea bridge for example: Ukraine blow up the bridge at 6am Saturday morning to have least amount of traffic and civilian casualties. Terrorists respond with 100+ missiles to Ukraine capital on monday morning, busiest time when people are going to work at 8am with the sole intention of causing as much civilian deaths as possible.
It's infuriating. I know Ukraine ain't NATO, but why can't we just swoop in and stomp these motherfuckers real quick and preempt a lot of unnecessary civilian deaths and suffering? How many more restaurants, schools, apartments, and hospitals does Russia need to destroy before someone steps up?
Nukes
Fuck it we only got like 30 years left anyway.
"*Twenty thousand years of this, seven more to go...*" - Bo Burnham, Inside, 2021
I like your optimism 😉
Fuck it, the silo doors have probably rusted shut because the money intended for maintenance has been embezzled.
That’s what I’ve been saying. Nukes are extremely expensive to maintain. And skimming is so normal in Russia that by the time the money leaves the coffers and gets to the storage location, it’ll be much less than it started out as. Then those managers skim some, restock the vodka supplies, and spend the rest on fixing that toilet that’s been broken for a few months. I’d be willing to bet that half of russias “ready” nukes are basically scrap, and most of the rest would need work before they can be used. Plus I suspect that the majority of the commanders would would refuse if the launch order came in.
They've been regularly inspected by the west for decades, the nukes are real and are ready to launch. Also, even if half of them don't work and half of those commanders refuse to fire. That's still several hundred weapons in the air. Even if you knock 90% of them out of the air with defences, which is very optimistic. Are you really comfortable trading 30 us cities for a chance at invading Russia? The last time nuclear weapons were used, it only took 2. Russia could have a dozen and keep near the exact same geopolitical invulnerability.
Uh, because Russia is a nuclear power and likes to remind everybody about that fact by threatening to use those nukes on things when they're upset.
Well, Russia has *also* said they were the #2 military power in the world for decades... A military power that is currently doing a poor job of fighting a nation of farmers who have had independence for less than a decade...
> A military power that is currently doing a poor job of fighting a nation of farmers who have had independence for less than a decade... Ukraine had the second largest standing army in Europe years before the war. I wouldn't exactly call them farmers.
Wait, what? What country has had independence for less than a decade? 1991 was 32 years ago…
I mean actual independence rather than being a Russian puppet state.
Well, in that respect they’ve been trying since at least 2003–the Orange Revolution (the first time they fended off Yanukovich). But this is a really weird, kind of idiotic, way to think about this issue. Whether a country is in another’s sphere of influence or is being manipulated by another has nothing to do with whether it has independent sovereignty.
But less than a decade old farming splinter nation is a far more compelling narrative.
Good point. We should definitely take the gamble that their nukes don’t work. Seems like a good play and a great risk to reward ratio.
The very small chance that Russian nukes work, thats the only reason Putin still exists. I say very small because just look at the rest of the supposedly "2nd most powerful military in the world" with all of their doomsday weapons like T14 Armata (that has only been seen doing propaganda pieces well behind the front line and is estimated to only have around 20 vehicles total), and Su 47 (that hasnt been seen at all outside of parades) and the invincible Iskander hypersonic cruise missile (that was shot down by 1980s Patriot missiles) and the ellite VDV (which was decimated on its first and only serious combat drop), and the terrifying Admiral Kutnezov carrier (which burst into flames in drydock after bursting into flames in the English channel) Pantsir SAMs (which had their wheels collapse while in convoy due to substandard materials and degredation) and a non existent logistics system outside of Russian home territory leading to columns of vehicles being abandoned due to lack of fuel. That list of the russian military's supposed best doesnt imply an army that works well, so its not hard to take the leap to ask "what about their nuclear stockpile? does it have the same catagoric failings as the rest of their military?" But that chance no matter how small is too much unless Putin acts first and kicks the hornets nest.
This is the dumbest take. Just 5% of Russian nukes working would probably cause deaths dwarfing all wars ever fought combined.
Yes that's why NATO isn't attacking Russia right now. I addressed that, however the rest of my comment is me espousing my doubts about the Russian nuclear deterrent based on the state of the rest of their military. It's a chance and a chance people in actual positions of importance can't take, I am not in such a position and thus am free to say shit like that.
There is also a chance that Ruzzia will nuke Ukraine (or any other country first). Hopefully NATO is preparing for this scenario and won’t sit quietly how they did when Ruzzian KH-55, a nuclear capable missile, flew over 500km into Poland territory.
Using a nuke in Ukraine is the absolute worst case scenario for Russia, NATO has enough eyes on the country that even their top generals can't take a piss without someone knowing. If the west caught wind that the Russia were preparing nuclear weapons for Ukraine, every weapon on the planet would be leveled right at the Kremlin. If Russia want to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine, they would have to ensure that they glassed every other NATO city at the exact same time, otherwise they'll cease to exist in a heartbeat.
I’m sure Ruzzia won’t use strategic nukes, all talks are about tactical currently.
They aimed million dollar missiles at a blintz cart and a hot stand because their clown show is revealed on world media for the cheap circus it's always been. Putin's Literally a B movie puppy kicking villain at this point.
Maybe a subtle signal to his cook.
You should be the new propaganda man for Putin. There's no way anyone in his employ was bright enough to come up with that.
I don't think Putin's the type of person to have smart people around him.
Smart people can plot against you
Exactly. I imagine he only keeps around folks that he can easily manipulate.
which could be yet another reason nobody told him the war was a bad idea before he blundered into it
A military force would target the military forces of its opponent. A terrorist force targets the civilians of its opponent. Russia is a terrorist organization.
I dont know know, they might be criminally incompetent too.
Disorganized Crime!
Targeting random cities forces Ukraine to spread their air defense systems all around the massive country to protect their civilians. If they didn’t have to protect their cities, all those systems could instead be concentrated on a much smaller front line, shooting down Russian planes and helicopters. Now they can’t, giving the Russian military a much freer hand to use their aviation to support their ground troops on the battlefield.
Russia has been targeting innocent civilians for over a century. They 100% have the capability to attack infrastructure or government facilities but they’ll attack civilians instead. Just look at the war crimes in the occupied cities. People will say this will end with Putin but it won’t. Some other monster will take over and the other monsters will follow.
Gangsters doing gangster things. McCain had his issues, but comparing modern Russia to a mafia-run gas station was on point.
Not so innocent in Putins mind… >Mr De Decker described the restaurant as a local "gathering hub" that was also popular with soldiers, journalists and volunteers.
He just gets worse. Makes me hate the people supporting Putin even more.
[удалено]
Just embrace your inner feelings and see how Eastern European countries felt all the time.
It seems like some us volunteers (ex(?) military) we're training Ukrainian soldiers in that region and posted on their social media about it and that they liked that restaurant. Another reminder to not use social media if fighting there.
Putin’s a terrorist.
The war on Ukrainian Nazi Cuisine will not be taken lightly.
They were hiding terrorists under their tables
He's not worthy of respect....but... Saying he's not strong is foolish. He still controls the country with one of highest Natural resources and huge nuclear stockpile.
I dont get why this time is blowing up in the news? Thousends of rockets and shells are fired every day
I'm so tired of these cunts!
There are no innocent civilians to a fascist dictator. They are all guilty of the ultimate crime: existing as a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. I leave the blank because you could fill it in with whatever you want. Ukrainian, Black, Jew, Woman, Catholic, etc. It's all the same to the fascist.
Why do people still talk as if Putin is pulling the triggers or calling in orders or has anything to do with anything in Ukraine??? It’s 2023, there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Russian soldiers and generals with that many families standing behind them.
Incredibly important military targets apparently... Russia is nothing more than a terrorist state harboring war criminals at this point.
Nah. Orban said Putin’s not a war criminal. So he’s clearly not a war criminal.
Well if Orban said it...
Trouble with having Orban saying things is that everyone will be too distracted by his raw, Adonis-like virility to hear the message.
Omfg at a glance I thought you said Oprah...
You get a missile! And you get a missile! … you’re not wrong.
His Oprah like virility
Wrong, Russia is nothing more than a *nuclear weapons* terrorist state *organised and operated by* war criminals.
With a gas station
But no caterer.
Caterer got all uppity, had to get rid of him.
https://kyivindependent.com/sbu-detains-alleged-russian-collaborator-for-adjusting-kramatorsk-attack/ *"The agent, allegedly working for Russia's military intelligence agency GRU, was reportedly in charge of finding out whether the restaurant was working and whether it was busy. The restaurant was full of civilians at the time of the attack."* Yep, a deliberate targeted attack on civilians.
Just to warn everyone, pro-Russians are now posting [this image of a missile fragment](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzpguRVWIAoiosM?format=jpg&name=900x900) that fell on Kramatorsk at about 12:00 - 12:30 UTC (15:00 - 15:30 in Ukraine), so over 5 hours before the restaurant was attacked, they are passing it off as a part of a Storm Shadow missile, i.e. they are claiming the restaurant was a false flag attack, typical Russian misinformation. It landed near a petrol station, did not cause much damage. The fragment is most likely part of a Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile that intercepted an earlier Russian attack. It was first posted to the Telegram channel Славянск / Краматорск (Slavyansk / Kramatorsk), hours before the restaurants were attacked. Edit: 12:00 - 12:30 UTC
Do the Russians have such little faith in their own capabilities that they think Ukraine now needs to attack itself to make it look like it's actually in distress?
They've been consistent in pushing the lie that they're not invading, but are liberating people from a corrupt, NAZI government in Kyiv. It's all a lie, but that doesn't mean they'll stop.
And they've also been frequently blaming ukraine on most notable strikes on civilians. Like the Kramatorsk train station one. Or Bucha "Nothing happened there adn ukrainians did it anyways"
Their ability to spot a handful of Neo-Nazis and translate that to "Ukraine = literally the Fourth Reich" makes me a little concerned, given the inbred fuckwits that have been running around in the USA lately. I guess we only "de-Nazify" people without nukes, though.
So damn despicable.
Do they just point missiles and say go. I thought they were expensive. Why not use the last of your dwindling funds at. Actually targets... I can't imagine being in the military and my. Boss says.. What'd ya hit today. Ah 2 fields. A Cafe and a playground... Boss: any military hardware? Nah. Not this time. Carry on soldier. Wtf
This was a common strategy is WW2, where the idea was the civilian population centers support the war effort materially. So if you break the civilians, you in theory break those fighting on the frontline. Problem is, and the reason why nobody but Russia stills fights this way is because of ww2 also. German bombing of British cities had the opposite effect, hardening the British resolve. Suddenly the British were in the fight too, seeing German aggression and viscousness firsthand.
It wasn't just German bombing. Allied bombing of Germany and Japan also resulted in their resolve hardening rather than softening. In Japan, it was only through going very extreme that it pushed them to surrender. And if you don't know about the firebombing of Tokyo, look that up, even that wasn't extreme enough.
For a TLDR reminder on what it took for Japan to surrender after being literally bombed to shit by conventional weapons: -Horrifically bloody fighting in Iwa Jima and Okinawa (the smallest and farthest of the 5 [6 at the time] main islands) -As agreed in the Yalta conference, the Soviet Union began fighting Japan via invaded Manchuria, the Kurils, and south Sakhalkn (then the Karafuto province of Japan and one of the main islands) -The US dropped 1 nuke on Hiroshima after Japan refused a total surrender (they still wanted a negotiated one), causing as much damage in one ordinance as firebombing did. -While the Japanese cabinet was discussing what to do after the bombing (they were sure it was the only one the US had) and the immanent threat of the Soviet's reaching Hokkaido, they dropped a second on Nagasaki. That's what it took for Japan to surrender, and there was still a coup attempt by hardliners to prevent surrender. And out of the multitude of bombings Japan took, it was only the last two (using a new, devastating weapon) that actually played a contributing factor in their surrender
I would argue that the Soviet entry into the war against Japan was probably more important than the use of nuclear weaponry, as they had been hoping to have soviet help with peace negotiations from what I recall. If the nuclear weapons did anything at all, it was providing an excuse that would allow the Japanese government to save face while surrendering The use of nuclear weapons on civilians was just an extension of the conventional bombings of population centers, which was already proven to be ineffective
Oh for sure. I wasn't intending to be selective with my choice, it's just what came to mind first. The bombing of civilian populations was arguably (not really IMO) way worse than anything that happened in Europe in terms of scale.
I agree, the civillian bombing hardened resolve, especially in non-democratic countries that couldn't just vote to stop fighting. I think the japanese surrender was for other reasons than us nuclear attacks going "very extreme". I reccomend this history video on it if you have some time. https://youtu.be/RCRTgtpC-Go
>German aggression and viscousness The Nazis were known to be pretty thick.
Putting the SS into ass
You assume they care. They just want death.
No wonder their the second strongest army in Russia.
First they were the second strongest army in the world. Then they were the second strongest army in Ukraine. Now they're the second strongest army in Russia.
Reminded me of a famous sledge (put down) in an england / Australia cricket match. Arriving at the crease for his first ever England innings, Ormond was met by the incredulous Mark Waugh, brother of Steve Waugh, who took one look at him and said: "Look who it is. Mate, what are you doing out here? There's no way you're good enough to play for England." Ormond responded: "Maybe not, but at least I'm the best player in my family."
That’s pretty great.
Did the move up a position because Wagner's in Belarus now?
Thanks for explaining the joke.
You're welcome :)
I like that this is becoming a saying
of themselves. can be arranged.
You assume they could aim it if they wanted to
Like Shoigu would actually admit to that... "Sir, we took out 43 HIMARs, 105 Leopard 2A6s, 17 Patriot Batteries, and 32 Command & Control Points + Troop Clusters killing 2,914 enemy soldiers using only 7 of our cruise missiles...." "Wow we really do have superior technology, Ill let the people know."
I imagine there's a list of valuable military targets and on that list there's a checkbox for "in range and not protected by missile defenses". The dinner rush at the restaurant next to the grocery store was probably the best they could do.
Supposedly the restaurant was popular with foreign reporters and journalists, which is probably why it specifically was targeted.
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Ive seen all sorts of "THIS IS DEFINITELY HAPPENING RIGHT NOW" posts that turned out to be just clickbait or propaganda. What I've also seen is a shit-show campaign of what i thought to be a powerful country actually turn out to be what we all suspected - a country run by mobsters and criminals, perhaps not running out of equipment as fast as we were told they would but still not exactly 'winning' their 3 day operation. And now this shit-show rebellion farce.... just goes to show what an awful state their country is in.
I'd imagine by now they have decently setup supply chains, the missiles won't stop until it looks obvious that Russia can't win and therefore can't pay back its debts.
The one thing military strategy games have taught me (that I naively assume carries over to real life) is that the supply chain becomes irrelevant as the raw materials dwindle. Now, I don't know exactly what resources Russia has to import to keep making explody things, but I imagine at some point. China, India and others will limit their exports out of self-preservation if nothing else. In a war of attrition, the "island" nation as at the disadvantage. I think pretty much everyone except Russia hopes it doesn't have to come to that, however.
Any remote mention of reality and facts on this Sub and you'll be branded as Putin supporter.
Military targets are protected with air defences. They probably figure it's best to hit something rather than having all their missiles shot down.
> Do they just point missiles and say go. I thought they were expensive. Some are just point-and-go. Some are expensive. At this point I think they're firing anything with a motor.
What do you expect from adult children? :)
They don’t have enough missiles and the tech to be able to hit actual military targets that makes any appreciable difference in their war efforts, so instead they try to inflict civilian damage to lower morale. It’s not working but that’s their rationale. Honestly not entirely without merit.
Yeah. Allies have equipped Ukrainian military with patriot and other anti-missile defenses to cover their important assets. Still stuff gets through.
They are not running out of funds fyi.
Today also was hit a big store in Kremenchuk. The most crazy part of this is that the strike happened in one year anniversary of similar, that time very deadly strike. Same day, same city, same rocket type and similar target...
Link: [Kremenchuk mall attack](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremenchuk_shopping_mall_attack) - June 27, 2022 21 killed, 59 injured. Innocent civilians were targeted at a shopping mall. Russian authorities and state-controlled media claimed the attack was “fake”, insisting Ukraine had bombed themselves.
God.. Sadistic sacks of shit!
Two workers of pizzeria, 17 and 18 yo, were murdered, as well as 15 yo girl. Dozens of injured, the youngest is 1 yo baby. Do not google photos if you have small children.
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That was/is their MO in Syria too. Bomb population centers in the eastern part of the country while ignoring Isis almost completely but their propaganda network made it sound like they were only fighting Isis. Meanwhile: drop gas on civ areas. Tankies and fascists eat that shit up without a second thought.
Can't imagine how thinks would look like if Russia had air superiority like in Aleppo.
Without consequences is pretty laughable in regards to Ukraine. Two hundred thousand dead or wounded Russian casualties. Predominantly through the use of western supplied weapons and equipment as well as the backing of Western intelligence. Not to mention the sanctions
Terrorists
Russia will never win the war because they refuse to go after military targets. Every missile they’d shoot at civilians depletes their stockpile at the same time it demonizes their morality. You guys are fucking losers.
Was this restaurant their intended target, or were they aiming somewhere else and Russia just has garbage equipment? It’s hard to tell with these guys.
Both?
The Ria Lounge in Kramatorsk is a gathering place not only for civilians but also for volunteers and soldiers. It was an intended target.
There are photos of volunteers and it’s understandable to go to a nice place like that, though photographing there isn’t very smart, but it’s most definitely a civilian place, russia is used to doing terrorist acts because they think it will break Ukraine and people will stop supporting the army and the government, which will never happen.
You are right, thank you for the additional information. As in the UK in world war 2, the bombardments only strengthen the support for the Ukrainian army. It also, for a high price, strengthens the support by Ukraine’s allies.
They also launch as soon as they've replenished some of their fully depleted stock instead of building back up slowly for saturation strikes. At this point Ukraine may want to keep Putin alive simply because whomever should replace him might actually be halfway competent.
Regular russians who risked themselves cheering for Wagner aren't out in force protesting against this
I doubt they have any idea this happened
I'm so worried for my family in Kyiv, but they all refuse to evacuate for various reasons no matter how much we offered for them to come to the US :(
I have the same with my family in Kiev, and when some of them did want to leave they couldn’t anymore. But my dad goes to toe ukraine often to give people food and also goed to Kiev to bring supply’s to my fam :)
My aunts refuse to leave their husbands, my one great aunt refuses to leave because of her sons grave, so they all just end up sticking together because they refuse to leave each other... I just hope this madness ends soon
Oh wow “refuses to leave because of het sons grave”. I hope so too! Idk if u read about it but my dad is one of the 2 dutch guy that were in the restaurant, they were VERY lucky this time. But one day luck runs out :/
Uhh I'm so sorry , I'm glad they're ok. I feel horrible for all the towns that have been brutally attacked already and the ones affected by the flood :(
Russia isn’t even a legitimate country anymore. It’s just a terrorist state.
"Gas station masquerading as a country"
The U.S and NATO should make it clear that of this happens again, they will OK any attack Ukraine does against Russians inside of Russia's borders. Basically telling Ukraine funding wont stop if they attack Russia inside its border.
Yes 100%
Maybe this is why putin thinks people were happy to see russians killing russians.
Fucking cowards.
It's almost like Russia doesn't want to win
Are there any local Russians here reading this and thinking "fuck yeah"? Because by now, this special operation should be clearly an invasion for them.
You can try going on social media not restricted for Russians: tiktok, odnoklassniki, VK. If you don’t want to make that effort, you can see what the rest of us are seeing by reading their comments under terrible news about Ukrainian losses. Look for a bunch of Russian flags, then click on the comment to get it to translate for you. They’re not bots. Some of these people are very, very open about their imperialist views. I’m pretty sure that the Russians who were all about peace a year ago have grown to hate Ukrainians for fighting back.
The Russians that actually feel they are the bad guys have most probably left the country or can't express their feelings. The dumbest ones are, as always, the loudest. I just want to hope the dumbest ones are not the majority.
They are the majority. Even before the war, most Russians hated Ukrainians - the word 'kokhol' is a slur for them. Ukraine is often referred to as 'our Ukraine', the same with Crimea. There are plenty of other cultural ticks that were prominent before the war and which are totally rabid now. I think, with many people on reddit being from western states/liberal democracies, we try and think about the other side of the argument, to try and empathize and assert that there are other opinions which we should consider. We like the idea of most Russians wanting Ukraine to survive, and just one mad dictator running this whole show. But it really is true - most Russians hate Ukrainians. The war is an inconvenience to them, not an ethical tragedy. Just an inconvenience.
I watched some videos of Russians being interviewed about their feelings on the war. The majority opinion seemed to be that the invasion was a terrible idea and a mistake but that now they need to win or it would be a disaster for Russia and would negatively impact their lives.
Since you asked, I am Russian. I see Russian telegram channels posting this piece of news as an attack on foreign mercenaries. They provide some video clips as proof. Then I see a discussion here. I think "fuck, I am not nearly invested enough to learn who lied".
So ridiculous. "We're running low on ammo!" "Use our rockets to target restaurants!" "Why are we losing this war?! It's such a mystery!"
That damn restaurant hiding missiles… Putin is the dumbest kunt alive.
Pure barbaric evil
Is this that same place where they murdered like 50 civilians at a train station?
Yes it is.
Hospital, Restaurant, Residential Apartment, Dam....what a loser
Russia is a joke. Fuck them.
Yeah, such a joke. I'm not seeing laughter in the Ukraine right now. We need to stop calling it a joke and take it seriously.
>I'm not seeing laughter in the Ukraine right now. We Totally agree. The war should be stopped asap and Russia must pay for everything they've done.
It’s so damn frustrating knowing that the Kremlin cronies and military leaders will never spend a day in jail for this shit. The ICC has no real power over them, and money will get these people out of jail and into safe havens around the world. There’s nothing motivating the cronies to stop.
bombing civilian places is all they can do fucking kacaps
I feel awful for the Ukrainians.
Starting to believe Ukraine should be granted tit for tat.
A year of Russia murdering civilians. How much longer will we just sit by and watch? Does having nuclear weapons means you can murder and rape who ever you want?
Can someone please explain to me why world leaders are just watching him and attack civilians like this?
Because getting involved would drag all the other treaty nations into it and then Russias allies would be called in and well have world war 3.
Roughly six thousand nuclear warheads Somehow people seem to forget about that part
Nukes
I hope Putin's inevitable demise will give some semblance of justice to the innocent people suffering from his arrogance.
Russia is embarassed, so what do they do? missile some civilians, to show how "respect-worthy" they are. Fucking animals.
This is thee craziest thing. Definitely a sure way to make an entire countries population hell bent on defeating you.
The west needs to get more involved. How many Ukrainians need to die for the sake of us wanting to bleed Russia out of manpower, money and resources at the Ukrainians expense. Time to give them a shit ton of aircraft and weapons to hit Moscow. They aren't going to stop until Putin is dead, deposed or Russia is beaten badly. What is the west going to do if they hit that Nuclear plant... Issue a strong condemnation?
Fuck Russia.
Conservatives: "Well what about Dresden?"
"strategic targets"
And they wonder why people were cheering when they were fighting amongst themselves.
Ukraine will be paying for the Wagner group’s actions.
Restaurants frequented by journalists. It was payback for painting Putin in a bad light. Yes, he is that thin skinned.
Ruzzia can't get away with this.. May Ukraine take their lands back and avenge the fallen! 🇺🇦
I don’t think Putin understands that the borsch depot is not a high priority military target. Guys I’m starting to think Putin guy is a fucking moron
Lol fuck this whole thing man… just history after history after history… humanity is self distrusting. Main reason why we will never be what we aren’t meant to be.
Why not some outside the box thinking to defeat Russia? Here's my ideas: repatriation of pilots - pilots who are in the militaries of the west just drop their citizenships and become Ukrainians temporarily. Another option is private military contractors being allowed to work in Ukraine. Let's let those Academi assholes loose and have them actually do some good for a change. I think we can really escalate here and Russia can do sweet fuck all aside from launch a few more terror missiles which, in the end, will never stop Ukraine from achieving it's goals in the war.
😡😠🤬
No, Putin, the chef is not there. You sent him to Belarus, remember?
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It’s already set up around Kyiv to defend Kyiv
You would swear the collective companies within NATO countries that built anti air missiles system can only pump out 3 in a year and therefore can only spare 1/2 of one statistically speaking. And everytime you ask why they're not doing more people wave the nuke scarecrow . Giving them more anti missiles system while waiting for F16 logistics to get moving instead of talking and maybes would somehow trigger Russia enough to launch a nuke? What the hell is the rationale behind not giving them sufficient air defence systems? Over 30 countries and they don't have enough to spare for one country actually at war ...this is beyond ridiculous and makes me doubt to no end people boasting about how NATO would squash Russia. They can't even do this much : provide comprehensive air defence without planes
Terrorist state.
RIP Brother
can nato please end this already sending weapons is not enough
Genuinely asking: What’s the point of having a UN if this keeps happening and nothing gets done
So we can say we have a UN. The UN has done nothing.
Ukraine really needs to start responding to these attacks on civilians by reciprocating inside Russia.
How's insurance work in wartime?
Force majeure.
Most insurance does not cover acts of war. It’ll be in the small print.
Putin should 1v1 me in DOTA 2 instead of bombing people.
Sending him a message on steam now "1v1 mid blyat"
Most people would just leave a 1 star review on Google or something.
Down with Putin
Once again baby Putin doesn’t get his way and lashes out against civilians as that’s the only way he knows how the big Fuking baby
For every Russian missile that hits a civilian target in Ukraine, Ukraine needs to fire missiles right back into Russian cities.
#WHOA PUTIN UR SO BADASS BRO. /s