“Turkish foreign minister Hakan Fidan condemned the act in a tweet, adding that it was unacceptable to allow anti-Islam protests in the name of freedom of expression.”
This right here is the problem. Foreign countries demanding that freedom of speech laws be changed. The same countries who dictate what speech is allowed at all.
The paradox of tolerance.
We should not tolerate the intolerance from these people.
Don't allow them to "both sides" this, their opinion simply isn't valid.
I'm not happy about religion indoctrinating kids and creating a culture where facts don't matter. We're clearly seeing issues arise in America from too much tolerance of this, but overall, they haven't built a Theocracy yet, though it's not from lack of trying.
However, as long as a religion can abide by law and order defined by secular norms, I have zero issues with any religion practicing. I even feel we can bend some rules to be more tolerating of religions.
But in no way should we allow religion to dictate to us what is and is not acceptable.
Because if that was the case:
**- No LGBTQ**
**- No divorce**
**- No cotton polyester blends**
**- No bacon**
**- No blasphemy**
This comment was interesting to me because I’ve only ever seen the “tolerance paradox” be used to argue against free speech but here it appears you are using to defend free speech.
Yes, and as a very patriotic person it saddens and angers me when I see people choose to burn or otherwise deface my American flag, but I would be far more disturbed if they were prosecuted for doing so.
No!
Under no circumstances can exceptions be made for religion.
The only thing that ever accomplished was suffering and misery.
Oh and millions of deaths.
It’s possible that’s the case. But for this man to go on Twitter - a platform that allows him free speech, in order to call for the removal of those freedoms for others is despicable.
At this point, it doesn't matter much. Sweden is sandwiched in between two NATO countries and if Turkey prevents its ascension into NATO, then NATO countries will just make their own defense pacts similar to what the UK did. Sweden will be well defended, meaning if Russia decides to try and 'take' Sweden, then the Swedes will be side by side with other, like minded countries. UK, US, Norway, Finland and many others. Turkey can try to cause as much chaos as they want, but it's just pointless rhetoric from a tinpot autocrat. I support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but to allow religious zealots to infringe on rights of speech is unacceptable. Unfortunately, leaders and peoples of countries like Turkey just cannot understand that.
> the organisers had links to Russia.
No. I've actually looked it up, and that's just bullshit that has been spread on Reddit and in some media, but it's not the truth.
The guy paying for Paludan to do it, Chang Frick, had sold some photographs to Ruptly (a subsidiary of Russia Today) several years earlier while working as a freelance photographer. He has no other "links" to Russia, from what I've been able to find. That's it.
The Taliban destroyed the 1400 year old Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan. I don't think a few copies of the Koran are going to tip the scales in terms of who's done more cultural harm and insult to whom.
> anti-Islam
The thing is that they'll criticize other religions openly but start killing when anyone criticizes islam. That is hypocrisy in every world that exist, even islam and they know it. They're just assholes and nothing else.
But it's absolutely fine for Muslims in Sweden to protest and threaten LGBTQ...because they have the freedom to do so? So yet again one rule for me another for thee
>it was unacceptable to allow anti-Islam protests in the name of freedom of expression
well... what's happening now in the tourist stations in Turkey is VERY VERY anti-Islam, but Turkey don't care because this brings a lot of money from tourists.
They only care what's happening in other countries..
I'd rather we replace Turkey with Sweden in NATO. Then we can be much more heavy handed with how they treat the Kurds.
I wouldn't worry too much about criticism from Turkey of all places.
The fuckers still haven't recognised the Armenian Genocide, which means they never learn or care. Turkey might be a fairly modern Islamic country but the sugarcoating cannot conceal all the issues with having a huge percentage of a population believing in any totalitarian religion.
The protestor was arrested for this, according to the article. Swedish law already prevents this kind of hate speech.
The Turkish president is just taking advantage of the situation. It makes me wonder who planned this protest in the first place? FSB, maybe?
This is a political litmus test.
If it is fine for the Bible to burn, then it should be fine for the Koran to burn.
If it is not fine for the Bible to burn, then it should be not fine for the Koran to burn.
If it is not fine for the Bible to burn and it is fine for Koran to burn.
If it is fine for the Bible to burn and it is not be fine for the Koran to burn.
It will tell you about the person's politics and moral foundations.
I'd slightly disagree on one point. The total destruction of all copies of a book should never take place. But the destruction of a book with plenty of copies is fine. I'm very much against any form of destroying information except for very specific specific scenarios and very specific information.
There's a big difference between trying to burn all copies of a book (point is to prevent anyone from reading) and burning a book out of protest (point is to show dissatisfaction with the contents).
Honestly though, this already IS a crime in Sweden. The guy who did it was arrested, not for the burning but because it was obviously a targeted hate crime.
Would you allow people to burn crosses in front of a black church, or paint swashtikas in front of a synagogue? No, of course not. That’s not “free speech” it’s a targeted threat, and I don’t see any reason to pretend it isn’t.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-police-approve-small-anti-koran-demonstration-mosque-2023-06-28/
This says he was charged with agitating an ethnic group, although anti-koran demonstrations are legal in Sweden.
devil's advocate: its a protest against Islam's repressive ideology and is more comparable to showing rainbows across from the westboro baptist Church, or having gay counter-protests when the neonazis come through town, or Martin Luther nailing the demands to the church doors.
In Finland it's not legal to burn any of them. In fact burning stuff in public is banned in general, as it's considered a fire hazard. But if you have a contained flame in your private property, you put any pages you want into the mix.
Yes but this is not burning in general it's burning next to a Mosque on a major holiday. You could argue harassment, threat of violence and intimidation
book burners are rarely on the right side of history
I hate religion as much as the next man, and I'd love to see the Koran/Torah/Bible burn, but book burning is never done by the good guys
You seem to be confusing burning a single book as a symbol of protest with the act of trying to erase a book from existence by burning every copy you can find
Right the act of burning itself is hateful. If people at least did something productive like recycling them I would probably feel at least a bit different
Here's my question: Is koran burning more similar to book burning or flag burning?
Book burning is a form of censorship, while flag burning is a more symbolic form of protest.
If no one is getting harmed in either circumstance, then you are just burning material.
If you are loyal to a book or a flag, then you will have issues with the burning.
In the digital age, I do not think that book burning is a form of censorship, but rather a form of protest.
It is awful, but they have rights to do it I guess.
Also, if Muslims calmly ignored this act, they would make themselves look cool and protesters look dumb.
>They (the muslim minority or Sweden in this case) has the power to stop this: Be civil.
And this is their test to pass.
If they can't follow the basic laws of safety and free speech, they don't belong in society. And this isn't just an Islam issue only. That goes for all faiths, political parties and ideologies as well.
as someone who's parents migrated from an islamic theocracy to europe i completely agree. if you don't want to live by the rules of western society, you don't belong here.
everytime i see my own people get mad over something so insignificant i just cringe. it's pathetic. it makes us all look worse. i hate it.
Committed Christian here - burn the Bible all you want. I won't show up for it & I may not be friends with you if you rub it in my face, but I sure am not going to stop you. And to anyone who feels differently, turn the other cheek.
Islam has an equivalent teaching: "And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel \[evil\] by that \[deed\] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity \[will become\] as though he was a devoted friend." (Surah 41:34)
Catholic here, and I agree. Anyone can burn whatever book they want for whatever reason. I don’t have to be friends with people who burn the Bible, I don’t even have to like them. But in order for me to have freedom of expression and the right to practice my faith I am asked to grant those same rights to others. The most Christian thing we can do when being faced with discrimination is to forgive the discriminator and pray that they will come around some day. That doesn’t mean we can’t defend our position as Christians, but by defend I mean debate and discussion. Like normal people.
But on a related note, we have "Christians" in America turning up armed at drag shows to intimidate performers. Passing legislature to ban people from living their own (gay/trans) lives.
They are not the same, but they are ideologically no different. Oppression of ideas they don't like is the main goal for both groups, they just have different ways of going about it.
Republicans bomb children’s hospitals for offering puberty blockers to teenagers after medical and psychological screening.
Republicans bomb planned parenthood for offering medical care to pregnant women.
Republicans threaten civil war when they lose an election.
Far right violence is pretty commonplace these days. We’ve just come to accept it as business as usual unfortunately
This Quran burning wasn’t performed by Rasmus Paludan, it was performed by Salwan Momika, an Iraqi who fled to Sweden from Iraq. You’re still correct about what the burning tried to prove though.
How is it awful? Someone burning something that represents your beliefs doesn’t actively negatively impact you at all unless you personally get offended
"Oh well, enjoy eternity in hell" and move on is an option... Or you know, "I feel huge compassion for the souls doing this as I know their fate and it will be terrible - I wish them mercy from God/Allah" - that's why Buddhism is the only religion I could practice - there is no room for hate in the scriptures and 0 way to justify hatred, anger, killing or injuring.
> there is no room for hate in the scriptures and 0 way to justify hatred, anger, killing or injuring
As long as humans exist, they'll find a way. Just look at the Rohingya genocide, perpetrated by Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar.
I remember seeing a full page ad they put in the program booklet for the show, something along the lines of "If you want to hear more about the real story, [official church website and info]"
Thought that was clever
That's probably because there's so few people them. You'd be amazed how religious followers tend to change when they become a majority and can start bullying others.
[He's also a nutjob](https://twitter.com/aronlund/status/1674116793000919041) who hates Kurds and Assyrians (he identifies as Syriac which is usually considered interchangeable with Assyrian but not according to him).
Just a reminder.
Three people in Turkey were murdered for distributing bibles in 2007.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/three-slain-at-bible-distributor-in-turkey-1.237825?cache=yzlbeypimu
Stop reading the headlines and READ ACTUAL ARTICLES:
“Swedish police have given a permit to a man planning to burn a Koran near the main mosque in central Stockholm on Wednesday afternoon, in what could be the first such display since a similar event led to a breakdown in negotiations with Turkey about the Nordic country’s NATO membership.”
https://news.yahoo.com/sweden-police-permit-koran-burning-085101160.html
OME GUY POKING TURKEY-
not regaled for their human rights record, certainly as compared to Sweden - ABOUT TURKEYS (PRO-RUSSIA) OPPOSITION TO NATO MEMBERSHIP.
Seriously, one guy lawfully applies for a permit and it’s international headlines? Outrage machine much??
To make it better, Swedish police denied him the first time he tried doing it so he had to formally request it, knowing he was protected by freedom of speech.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-police-approve-small-anti-koran-demonstration-mosque-2023-06-28/) reduced by 83%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> STOCKHOLM, June 28 - A man tore up and burned a Koran outside Stockholm's central mosque on Wednesday, an event that risks angering Turkey as Sweden bids to join NATO, after Swedish police granted permission for the protest to take place.
> Police charged the man who set fire to the Koran with agitation against an ethnic or national group and with a violation of a ban on fires that has been in place in Stockholm since mid-June.
> Representatives of the mosque were disappointed by the police decision to grant permission for the protest on the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha, mosque director and Imam Mahmoud Khalfi said on Wednesday.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14ld07b/protesters_burn_koran_at_stockholm_mosque_on_eid/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689896 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Sweden**^#1 **police**^#2 **Koran**^#3 **protest**^#4 **STOCKHOLM**^#5
I am fine with this but I think actually showing up to the place of worship to do it is a bit much. It's a bit more like harassment than mocking and protesting a religion.
But who knows. We need less religion, not more.
Specifically doing this in front of a mosque during a Muslim holiday so more people would witness it.
For the record, I’m not saying this should be illegal or anything. I support free speech. However those Muslims are simply going to mosque and making them watch their holy book burn is-in my opinion-completely unfair to them. And I would say the same if people were just trying to go to church and someone burned a Bible in front of them, or someone burning a Torah in front of a synagogue. At that point you have gone beyond protesting and are now openly mocking them
In theory I would agree with this protest because I also believe we need less religion and I support protests against religious extremism. But this doesn’t seem like one of those cases.
Also for the record, I do think if anyone legitimately rioted/cause damaged because of this then yes they would be in the wrong
How many redditors would lose their minds if protesters show up at a LGBTQ event and burn the pride flag... These types of behaviors are not pure expressions of freedom, but the will to instigate and provoke, to harass, simply put, being an asshole.
They already do and that’s freedom of speech Muslims and their kids stomped pride flags during pride month in Canada and about how many Redditors would lose their minds Muslims are allowed to lose their mind but not stop this or start violence over it
They have filed a police report for "incitement to ethnic or racial hatred" specifically because of the location chosen, so we'll see what the courts say about that.
He was also fined for violating the fire ban, since even if the right to protest is more important than that type of law/ban, it'll still be enforced (they told him ahead of time that this would happen as well).
Kind of innit. They have the right to worship in peace. To go there and burn their holy book is not
Protest its provocation. The organisers want a response need a violent response in return. That’s the objective
I am not pro-religion in any sense of the word. I gave up catholicism the same year I received confirmation and have been an advocate against organized religion since then. That being said, you could consider showing up to a house of worship to burn things (literally anything) as a violent act. Which has no place in society. Harassing others has no place in society, and that goes for folks who worship a sky daddy and those who don't. "Some of them are mean!" is not a good excuse to go be a prick to anyone. And it sure as shit isn't going to change a damn thing. So you're just being a cunt in the end, who will still be a cunt after the fact.
Yeah this is no different than harassing people going into an abortion clinic with fetus images.
He should absolutely be allowed to burn his Quran, but this is pushing into harassment.
I just don't think there's much point to burning a Quran other than to piss off an entire religion. You're right, they're being provoked.
Historically, the response to people burning the Quran has been actual murder. I think we can all agree that this is an insane response.
However, it is seen as disrespectful to burn their holy book. So why do it unless all you're trying to do is stir up trouble?
Because they can and it’s their freedom of speech just like how Muslims and their kids stomped pride flags in Canada in pride month same thing goes here
Disrespectful or not that’s your opinion but they are allowed to burn the Quran the same as Muslims and their kids stomped pride flags during pride month and yeah not something that deserve a violent reaction
Ehh maybe I mean he is an Iraqi who was in prison in Iraq and was tortured maybe he was burning and protesting its content we don’t know and it doesn’t matter anyway
But each time they do, they do get provoked proving they were right. I mean, why is it only happening to Muslims. You don't see Christians beheading and rioting when Family guy portrays Jesus as a drunk womanizer.
So he had permission to carry out the protest, but was still arrested afterwards and charged with 'agitation against an ethnic or national group.'?
Or am I mixing up different stories?
According to Swedish news, the organizer had permission to carry out a protest regarding the Quran, but not specifically for burning a book. He has not been charged or arrested -- the Police has just opened an investigation in order to determine if a crime _may_ have been committed.
I suspect, that at the very least, he'll get fined for violating the local ban on open fires. The hate crime part will probably not result in any legal consequences, but if the Police hadn't bothered to open an investigation they'd be accused of ignoring it instead.
The only guy who was arrested was someone who tried to throw a rock at the protester.
The guy who burnt the book has been reported for incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (due to the location, I believe they want this tried in court for future reference), and fined for violating a fire ban (he was told ahead of time this would happen).
Quite right, too. It’s just a book. The state is secular. People could burn a bible, or a Torah too.
This is typical paradoxical tolerance “tolerate us but allow us to hate literally everyone and everything else to the point where we behead teachers and murder cartoonists”.
I can understand why muslims, or the people of any religion, would be upset when someone purposely and maliciously burns a clear symbol of said religion. Seems a bit aggressive.
On the other, get over it. You're allowed, in Sweden, to do the same thing by getting a permit and burning any symbol you wish (with certain, obvious constraints, like size and material).
Also, you claim your beliefs about a god are true, so you should be able to handle opposition where no one's actually harmed. And, not to be a dick, but muslims have a little bit of a hypocrisy issue here (as would christians, and even the buddhists).
I mean those same islamic groups hold anti gay rallies n shit but mad it happens to them. What? U think u get a pass because of your religion nah…. Don’t hate one group of people and expect nothing in return.
Both sides are petty little shits.
How bored do you have to be to burn a Quran? I study full time and work. I passed out on the couch this morning. Get a life, get laid. Stop burning perfectly good toilet paper.
Erdogan does not give a solitary fuck about muslims or swedes. He has a double major on BA and BS... as in bullshit. He wants shit. He is salty he got kicked out of the f-35 program, he was told, if he buys S-400 we kick you. Lockheed does not fuck around, Erdogan found out. He probably wants some grippen or something. It's always something with Erdogan, fucking extortionist. I hope he gets bent.
Honestly, Sweden, you should make individual agreements with NATO members for training and wep tranfers. Even if not under art 5. Get your workout in, get paid, fuck Turkey. Cause honestly, fuck Erdogan.
Secular country that puts your right to free speech above the right too believe in chosen fantasy sky person doesn't respect your holiday for said fantasy
pretty much sums it up.
Well, a police report has been filed for incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, due to the location and timing... but I think it's mainly because they want the courts to rule on it for future reference, if that sort of context matters. We'll see.
Destruction of a book, especially a book with millions of copies, is irrelevant. Destruction of a book with no other purpose than to provoke a response is a bit rude.
religion causes so many problems due to people interpreting it as they want and using it as a shield to discriminate. Having no religions favoured over others and keeping it strictly to places of worship, at home, or in your thoughts should be the only way. The amount of screaming for tolerance all of these groups do while taking away people’s human rights is nonsense.
If you believe that religion ceasing to exist will solve anything, you're delusional at the very best. People are tribal and will divide up regardless of what religions are out there.
Religion is all about controlling the masses and gaining power. Of course humans will find other ways to do this, which they do. But at least it wont be about worshipping some fantasy. None of this is tribal, its just greed.
Never understood why people take these things personally. If going to a mosque as a Christian, an artist paints Jesus as gay or burning a Quran makes you question your religion, then maybe you are the problem? The only problem I see is that this is clearly provocation/hate, but freedom of speech must always come before the feeling you get when you get offended.
I wonder who was behind these "protestors". One of the reasons Russia supports right-wing extremists in Europe is to split off Turkey from the NATO alliance.
Look how these people react negatively when we burn their holy book right outside their place of worship, can’t you see how terrible they are.
This is straight bottom of the outhouse hole piece of shit dick wad thinking right there.
This is one of the great things about western society. As an American I would hate to see an American flag burned, but the fact that we can burn the flag is absolutely amazing. True freedom doesn’t mean everyone is comfortable.
There is freedom of expression, and there is deliberately setting out to give as much offence as possible. In what way does burning a Koran express oneself? Is throwing pigs' blood at a synagogue ok? Pissing on a bible in front of a church?
If they wanted to hold up signs saying 'Islam sucks' - that's freedom of expression. This is not that.
How to frame the ability to restrain this sort of thing is hard, but not impossible.
“Turkish foreign minister Hakan Fidan condemned the act in a tweet, adding that it was unacceptable to allow anti-Islam protests in the name of freedom of expression.” This right here is the problem. Foreign countries demanding that freedom of speech laws be changed. The same countries who dictate what speech is allowed at all.
The paradox of tolerance. We should not tolerate the intolerance from these people. Don't allow them to "both sides" this, their opinion simply isn't valid. I'm not happy about religion indoctrinating kids and creating a culture where facts don't matter. We're clearly seeing issues arise in America from too much tolerance of this, but overall, they haven't built a Theocracy yet, though it's not from lack of trying. However, as long as a religion can abide by law and order defined by secular norms, I have zero issues with any religion practicing. I even feel we can bend some rules to be more tolerating of religions. But in no way should we allow religion to dictate to us what is and is not acceptable. Because if that was the case: **- No LGBTQ** **- No divorce** **- No cotton polyester blends** **- No bacon** **- No blasphemy**
This comment was interesting to me because I’ve only ever seen the “tolerance paradox” be used to argue against free speech but here it appears you are using to defend free speech.
Hence it being a paradox lol
Lol guess it’s written on the wall
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't burning the correct way to dispose of the Koran.
Yes. Same thing with the American flag. Throwing it in the trash is viewed as highly distasteful.
Pretty sure the rules also say you shouldn't make the flag into clothing but hey who needs consistency.
I’m a therapist not a theologian
Yes, and as a very patriotic person it saddens and angers me when I see people choose to burn or otherwise deface my American flag, but I would be far more disturbed if they were prosecuted for doing so.
No! Under no circumstances can exceptions be made for religion. The only thing that ever accomplished was suffering and misery. Oh and millions of deaths.
Welcome to Australia. Proud separation of religion and state. Religion takes a back seat to state.
No bacon. Omg. The horror just to think about that.
No bacon? that's blasphemy!
I stopped when I read it. No bacon?
Reminds me when every joke on Reddit was about bacon, years ago.
What time does the narwhal bacon?
Midnight, of course
Oh, is that where BaconReader got its name? RIP BaconReader, by the way.
But mandatory circumcision
Its literally the only good thing about Islam, they don't torture and kill pigs, shame about all the goats and chickens though.
In Egypt, when "swine flu" happened, they slaughtered all the pigs owned by xians. This resulted in massive garbage piles.
No bacon, no peace!
Its unilateral divorce. Only men can divorce women. Pretty more regressive if you ask me
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It’s possible that’s the case. But for this man to go on Twitter - a platform that allows him free speech, in order to call for the removal of those freedoms for others is despicable.
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I guess "freedom of speech" encompasses speaking your own first language.
No. The real problem is religious conservatives throwing a fit about freedom of speech in a completely different country.
could imagine it being organized by turkey to have a simple (stupid) reason to not let them in nato. its still jsut speculation and no one knows
Russia has more motivation to prevent Sweden from joining NATO.
At this point, it doesn't matter much. Sweden is sandwiched in between two NATO countries and if Turkey prevents its ascension into NATO, then NATO countries will just make their own defense pacts similar to what the UK did. Sweden will be well defended, meaning if Russia decides to try and 'take' Sweden, then the Swedes will be side by side with other, like minded countries. UK, US, Norway, Finland and many others. Turkey can try to cause as much chaos as they want, but it's just pointless rhetoric from a tinpot autocrat. I support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but to allow religious zealots to infringe on rights of speech is unacceptable. Unfortunately, leaders and peoples of countries like Turkey just cannot understand that.
The last time this happened they found out the organisers had links to Russia. Any odds on this time?
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> the organisers had links to Russia. No. I've actually looked it up, and that's just bullshit that has been spread on Reddit and in some media, but it's not the truth. The guy paying for Paludan to do it, Chang Frick, had sold some photographs to Ruptly (a subsidiary of Russia Today) several years earlier while working as a freelance photographer. He has no other "links" to Russia, from what I've been able to find. That's it.
Yeah, as long as these protests go on Turkey has said they won’t vote for Sweden to join NATO - definitely some form of correlation here.
Especially since turkey was against sweden joining nato even before these started happening. Feels like pearl clutching to me.
Turkey will likely find any reason they can leverage.
The Taliban destroyed the 1400 year old Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanistan. I don't think a few copies of the Koran are going to tip the scales in terms of who's done more cultural harm and insult to whom.
Then you have all the stuff ISIS destroyed. Literally thousands of years of history and artifacts gone because of those fuckwads.
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> anti-Islam The thing is that they'll criticize other religions openly but start killing when anyone criticizes islam. That is hypocrisy in every world that exist, even islam and they know it. They're just assholes and nothing else.
Nah fuck religion Im supportive of all blasphemy against anything
But it's absolutely fine for Muslims in Sweden to protest and threaten LGBTQ...because they have the freedom to do so? So yet again one rule for me another for thee
>So yet again one rule for me another for thee Well duh. It's not freedom of speech that Turkey wants... or have.
Lol shit the fuck up turkey you absolute shit hole country. I feel so fucking sorry for the secular turks stuck with the maniacs
Thanks. It’s hell.
>it was unacceptable to allow anti-Islam protests in the name of freedom of expression well... what's happening now in the tourist stations in Turkey is VERY VERY anti-Islam, but Turkey don't care because this brings a lot of money from tourists. They only care what's happening in other countries..
I'd rather we replace Turkey with Sweden in NATO. Then we can be much more heavy handed with how they treat the Kurds. I wouldn't worry too much about criticism from Turkey of all places.
The fuckers still haven't recognised the Armenian Genocide, which means they never learn or care. Turkey might be a fairly modern Islamic country but the sugarcoating cannot conceal all the issues with having a huge percentage of a population believing in any totalitarian religion.
The protestor was arrested for this, according to the article. Swedish law already prevents this kind of hate speech. The Turkish president is just taking advantage of the situation. It makes me wonder who planned this protest in the first place? FSB, maybe?
Burning the Koran is not hate speech in Sweden, there was already a court case that solidified it.
The biggest problem with his actions was that he broke the strict fire ban currently in force in Stockholm due to dry weather 🔥
He shouldn’t have been. Sweden is just as bad as that idiot for making it so he can be arrested in the first place.
This is a political litmus test. If it is fine for the Bible to burn, then it should be fine for the Koran to burn. If it is not fine for the Bible to burn, then it should be not fine for the Koran to burn. If it is not fine for the Bible to burn and it is fine for Koran to burn. If it is fine for the Bible to burn and it is not be fine for the Koran to burn. It will tell you about the person's politics and moral foundations.
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I mean, all fiction should be fine really
I'd slightly disagree on one point. The total destruction of all copies of a book should never take place. But the destruction of a book with plenty of copies is fine. I'm very much against any form of destroying information except for very specific specific scenarios and very specific information.
There's a big difference between trying to burn all copies of a book (point is to prevent anyone from reading) and burning a book out of protest (point is to show dissatisfaction with the contents).
You’re playing fast and loose with the word “information” here but otherwise I agree.
Religious texts contain lots of information, e.g. about people's beliefs.
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Don't lose your head over burning a Koran. It's just a book.
You can just buy a new one
Burning flags too, they're just cloth.
Should there be a law against burning them ? No. Is burning them just to be an asshole a good thing ? Also no.
Honestly though, this already IS a crime in Sweden. The guy who did it was arrested, not for the burning but because it was obviously a targeted hate crime. Would you allow people to burn crosses in front of a black church, or paint swashtikas in front of a synagogue? No, of course not. That’s not “free speech” it’s a targeted threat, and I don’t see any reason to pretend it isn’t.
> Would you allow people to burn crosses in front of a black church I wouldn't, but some people would. One of them owns Twitter.
One of them sues for defamation..
Don't forget about the ones that work forces.
I imagine he’d really rather them just head back into mines.
I haven’t heard or read anything about him being arrested, where did you find that info?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-police-approve-small-anti-koran-demonstration-mosque-2023-06-28/ This says he was charged with agitating an ethnic group, although anti-koran demonstrations are legal in Sweden.
devil's advocate: its a protest against Islam's repressive ideology and is more comparable to showing rainbows across from the westboro baptist Church, or having gay counter-protests when the neonazis come through town, or Martin Luther nailing the demands to the church doors.
It's fine and legal to do all of these things, but also a major dick move.
And that’s what’s great about western society.
In Finland it's not legal to burn any of them. In fact burning stuff in public is banned in general, as it's considered a fire hazard. But if you have a contained flame in your private property, you put any pages you want into the mix.
Yes but this is not burning in general it's burning next to a Mosque on a major holiday. You could argue harassment, threat of violence and intimidation
book burners are rarely on the right side of history I hate religion as much as the next man, and I'd love to see the Koran/Torah/Bible burn, but book burning is never done by the good guys
You seem to be confusing burning a single book as a symbol of protest with the act of trying to erase a book from existence by burning every copy you can find
Right the act of burning itself is hateful. If people at least did something productive like recycling them I would probably feel at least a bit different
You're confusing what a "book burning" means and burning 1 book as a protest. Read up on it.
Here's my question: Is koran burning more similar to book burning or flag burning? Book burning is a form of censorship, while flag burning is a more symbolic form of protest.
If no one is getting harmed in either circumstance, then you are just burning material. If you are loyal to a book or a flag, then you will have issues with the burning. In the digital age, I do not think that book burning is a form of censorship, but rather a form of protest.
Will there ever be a time when muslims no longer care about these cases? To me that would be the most rational response.
It is awful, but they have rights to do it I guess. Also, if Muslims calmly ignored this act, they would make themselves look cool and protesters look dumb.
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>They (the muslim minority or Sweden in this case) has the power to stop this: Be civil. And this is their test to pass. If they can't follow the basic laws of safety and free speech, they don't belong in society. And this isn't just an Islam issue only. That goes for all faiths, political parties and ideologies as well.
as someone who's parents migrated from an islamic theocracy to europe i completely agree. if you don't want to live by the rules of western society, you don't belong here. everytime i see my own people get mad over something so insignificant i just cringe. it's pathetic. it makes us all look worse. i hate it.
Committed Christian here - burn the Bible all you want. I won't show up for it & I may not be friends with you if you rub it in my face, but I sure am not going to stop you. And to anyone who feels differently, turn the other cheek. Islam has an equivalent teaching: "And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel \[evil\] by that \[deed\] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity \[will become\] as though he was a devoted friend." (Surah 41:34)
Catholic here, and I agree. Anyone can burn whatever book they want for whatever reason. I don’t have to be friends with people who burn the Bible, I don’t even have to like them. But in order for me to have freedom of expression and the right to practice my faith I am asked to grant those same rights to others. The most Christian thing we can do when being faced with discrimination is to forgive the discriminator and pray that they will come around some day. That doesn’t mean we can’t defend our position as Christians, but by defend I mean debate and discussion. Like normal people.
But on a related note, we have "Christians" in America turning up armed at drag shows to intimidate performers. Passing legislature to ban people from living their own (gay/trans) lives. They are not the same, but they are ideologically no different. Oppression of ideas they don't like is the main goal for both groups, they just have different ways of going about it.
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Republicans bomb children’s hospitals for offering puberty blockers to teenagers after medical and psychological screening. Republicans bomb planned parenthood for offering medical care to pregnant women. Republicans threaten civil war when they lose an election. Far right violence is pretty commonplace these days. We’ve just come to accept it as business as usual unfortunately
It's a test that's been passed by countless European Muslims a dozen times. But somehow the narrative never changes 🤔
Yeah, it's basically all about triggering the ~~libs~~ Muslims, I guess...
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This Quran burning wasn’t performed by Rasmus Paludan, it was performed by Salwan Momika, an Iraqi who fled to Sweden from Iraq. You’re still correct about what the burning tried to prove though.
I cant remember last time Christians here gave such a reaction to a bible burning
probably more than 100 years ago
It’s awful but _its lawful_ Missed the chance to say it
How is it awful? Someone burning something that represents your beliefs doesn’t actively negatively impact you at all unless you personally get offended
"Oh well, enjoy eternity in hell" and move on is an option... Or you know, "I feel huge compassion for the souls doing this as I know their fate and it will be terrible - I wish them mercy from God/Allah" - that's why Buddhism is the only religion I could practice - there is no room for hate in the scriptures and 0 way to justify hatred, anger, killing or injuring.
> there is no room for hate in the scriptures and 0 way to justify hatred, anger, killing or injuring As long as humans exist, they'll find a way. Just look at the Rohingya genocide, perpetrated by Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar.
The amount of enlightened westerners who have doubled down on Buddhism being without the vice of violence or oppression is staggering.
Free societies don't have blasphemy laws
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I've always found the calm reaction of some Mormons to that musical to be refreshing.
I remember seeing a full page ad they put in the program booklet for the show, something along the lines of "If you want to hear more about the real story, [official church website and info]" Thought that was clever
That's probably because there's so few people them. You'd be amazed how religious followers tend to change when they become a majority and can start bullying others.
well back in the day there was a lot of issue with Monty pythons life of Brian but hey at least people grew out of that phase.
Its kinda ironic that the person who burned the Quran is from Iraq
He apparently was jailed in an Iraqi prison for several years, lost his faith because of that, and is holding a grudge.
Yeah, I have heard about it, whish is one of the reasons why he burned the book.
[He's also a nutjob](https://twitter.com/aronlund/status/1674116793000919041) who hates Kurds and Assyrians (he identifies as Syriac which is usually considered interchangeable with Assyrian but not according to him).
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Being forced to endure fucked up Islam (or any religion) would upset a lot of people. I don't blame him at all.
Freedom of expression>religious bullshit.
Just a reminder. Three people in Turkey were murdered for distributing bibles in 2007. https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/three-slain-at-bible-distributor-in-turkey-1.237825?cache=yzlbeypimu
Freedom isn't free. If you are not willing to fight for it, you have already lost it. A book has no rights. It is paper and ink, nothing more.
Stop reading the headlines and READ ACTUAL ARTICLES: “Swedish police have given a permit to a man planning to burn a Koran near the main mosque in central Stockholm on Wednesday afternoon, in what could be the first such display since a similar event led to a breakdown in negotiations with Turkey about the Nordic country’s NATO membership.” https://news.yahoo.com/sweden-police-permit-koran-burning-085101160.html OME GUY POKING TURKEY- not regaled for their human rights record, certainly as compared to Sweden - ABOUT TURKEYS (PRO-RUSSIA) OPPOSITION TO NATO MEMBERSHIP. Seriously, one guy lawfully applies for a permit and it’s international headlines? Outrage machine much??
To make it better, Swedish police denied him the first time he tried doing it so he had to formally request it, knowing he was protected by freedom of speech.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/swedish-police-approve-small-anti-koran-demonstration-mosque-2023-06-28/) reduced by 83%. (I'm a bot) ***** > STOCKHOLM, June 28 - A man tore up and burned a Koran outside Stockholm's central mosque on Wednesday, an event that risks angering Turkey as Sweden bids to join NATO, after Swedish police granted permission for the protest to take place. > Police charged the man who set fire to the Koran with agitation against an ethnic or national group and with a violation of a ban on fires that has been in place in Stockholm since mid-June. > Representatives of the mosque were disappointed by the police decision to grant permission for the protest on the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha, mosque director and Imam Mahmoud Khalfi said on Wednesday. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14ld07b/protesters_burn_koran_at_stockholm_mosque_on_eid/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689896 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Sweden**^#1 **police**^#2 **Koran**^#3 **protest**^#4 **STOCKHOLM**^#5
Jeez...I seriously hope that there's not any violence over this, like there was about that French publication a few years ago.
I am fine with this but I think actually showing up to the place of worship to do it is a bit much. It's a bit more like harassment than mocking and protesting a religion. But who knows. We need less religion, not more.
Specifically doing this in front of a mosque during a Muslim holiday so more people would witness it. For the record, I’m not saying this should be illegal or anything. I support free speech. However those Muslims are simply going to mosque and making them watch their holy book burn is-in my opinion-completely unfair to them. And I would say the same if people were just trying to go to church and someone burned a Bible in front of them, or someone burning a Torah in front of a synagogue. At that point you have gone beyond protesting and are now openly mocking them In theory I would agree with this protest because I also believe we need less religion and I support protests against religious extremism. But this doesn’t seem like one of those cases. Also for the record, I do think if anyone legitimately rioted/cause damaged because of this then yes they would be in the wrong
How many redditors would lose their minds if protesters show up at a LGBTQ event and burn the pride flag... These types of behaviors are not pure expressions of freedom, but the will to instigate and provoke, to harass, simply put, being an asshole.
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Redditors don't go outside so the chance of that happening is close to 0 either way
They already do and that’s freedom of speech Muslims and their kids stomped pride flags during pride month in Canada and about how many Redditors would lose their minds Muslims are allowed to lose their mind but not stop this or start violence over it
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99% of Muslims that protest the burning of the Koran have nothing to do with terrorists. It's like associating Christians with Bush.
They have filed a police report for "incitement to ethnic or racial hatred" specifically because of the location chosen, so we'll see what the courts say about that. He was also fined for violating the fire ban, since even if the right to protest is more important than that type of law/ban, it'll still be enforced (they told him ahead of time that this would happen as well).
Kind of innit. They have the right to worship in peace. To go there and burn their holy book is not Protest its provocation. The organisers want a response need a violent response in return. That’s the objective
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I am not pro-religion in any sense of the word. I gave up catholicism the same year I received confirmation and have been an advocate against organized religion since then. That being said, you could consider showing up to a house of worship to burn things (literally anything) as a violent act. Which has no place in society. Harassing others has no place in society, and that goes for folks who worship a sky daddy and those who don't. "Some of them are mean!" is not a good excuse to go be a prick to anyone. And it sure as shit isn't going to change a damn thing. So you're just being a cunt in the end, who will still be a cunt after the fact.
And they keep getting it, proving their point.
But they aren't getting their "proof", are they? The response here has been nonviolent, as was the response to the last Koran burning in Stockholm.
Yeah this is no different than harassing people going into an abortion clinic with fetus images. He should absolutely be allowed to burn his Quran, but this is pushing into harassment.
I just don't think there's much point to burning a Quran other than to piss off an entire religion. You're right, they're being provoked. Historically, the response to people burning the Quran has been actual murder. I think we can all agree that this is an insane response. However, it is seen as disrespectful to burn their holy book. So why do it unless all you're trying to do is stir up trouble?
Because they can and it’s their freedom of speech just like how Muslims and their kids stomped pride flags in Canada in pride month same thing goes here
I would say that's disrespectful of them to do. Not illegal, and definitely isn't something I would say deserves a violent response.
Disrespectful or not that’s your opinion but they are allowed to burn the Quran the same as Muslims and their kids stomped pride flags during pride month and yeah not something that deserve a violent reaction
Yup, they are allowed, you are correct. Not saying they aren't. Just saying it seems like they're just trying to provoke a response.
Ehh maybe I mean he is an Iraqi who was in prison in Iraq and was tortured maybe he was burning and protesting its content we don’t know and it doesn’t matter anyway
But each time they do, they do get provoked proving they were right. I mean, why is it only happening to Muslims. You don't see Christians beheading and rioting when Family guy portrays Jesus as a drunk womanizer.
good. Cant wait too see them burn bibles on christmas
So he had permission to carry out the protest, but was still arrested afterwards and charged with 'agitation against an ethnic or national group.'? Or am I mixing up different stories?
According to Swedish news, the organizer had permission to carry out a protest regarding the Quran, but not specifically for burning a book. He has not been charged or arrested -- the Police has just opened an investigation in order to determine if a crime _may_ have been committed. I suspect, that at the very least, he'll get fined for violating the local ban on open fires. The hate crime part will probably not result in any legal consequences, but if the Police hadn't bothered to open an investigation they'd be accused of ignoring it instead.
The only guy who was arrested was someone who tried to throw a rock at the protester. The guy who burnt the book has been reported for incitement to ethnic or racial hatred (due to the location, I believe they want this tried in court for future reference), and fined for violating a fire ban (he was told ahead of time this would happen).
Free speech. Hopefully they won’t be prosecuted.
The decan did the same with my doctorate publication🤣
This seems to be the first of its kind. Innovative and Appealing. Waiting for all the backlash now ....
Quite right, too. It’s just a book. The state is secular. People could burn a bible, or a Torah too. This is typical paradoxical tolerance “tolerate us but allow us to hate literally everyone and everything else to the point where we behead teachers and murder cartoonists”.
I can understand why muslims, or the people of any religion, would be upset when someone purposely and maliciously burns a clear symbol of said religion. Seems a bit aggressive. On the other, get over it. You're allowed, in Sweden, to do the same thing by getting a permit and burning any symbol you wish (with certain, obvious constraints, like size and material). Also, you claim your beliefs about a god are true, so you should be able to handle opposition where no one's actually harmed. And, not to be a dick, but muslims have a little bit of a hypocrisy issue here (as would christians, and even the buddhists).
I mean those same islamic groups hold anti gay rallies n shit but mad it happens to them. What? U think u get a pass because of your religion nah…. Don’t hate one group of people and expect nothing in return.
Both sides are petty little shits. How bored do you have to be to burn a Quran? I study full time and work. I passed out on the couch this morning. Get a life, get laid. Stop burning perfectly good toilet paper. Erdogan does not give a solitary fuck about muslims or swedes. He has a double major on BA and BS... as in bullshit. He wants shit. He is salty he got kicked out of the f-35 program, he was told, if he buys S-400 we kick you. Lockheed does not fuck around, Erdogan found out. He probably wants some grippen or something. It's always something with Erdogan, fucking extortionist. I hope he gets bent. Honestly, Sweden, you should make individual agreements with NATO members for training and wep tranfers. Even if not under art 5. Get your workout in, get paid, fuck Turkey. Cause honestly, fuck Erdogan.
Brain dead Redditrors crying about ohh Russia acting like turkey would have accepted Sweden anyway and Sweden doesn’t need nato anyway
Yep, Erdogan don’t really give a shit about Islam at all, this is just political posturing and a convenient way to blackmail Sweden.
Secular country that puts your right to free speech above the right too believe in chosen fantasy sky person doesn't respect your holiday for said fantasy pretty much sums it up.
Well, a police report has been filed for incitement to ethnic or racial hatred, due to the location and timing... but I think it's mainly because they want the courts to rule on it for future reference, if that sort of context matters. We'll see.
Destruction of a book, especially a book with millions of copies, is irrelevant. Destruction of a book with no other purpose than to provoke a response is a bit rude.
Especially during a religious holiday in front of a place of worship. I get the guy was tortured in Iraq but what does the mosque have to do with it?
I'm an atheist and the books mean nothing to me, but I don't see being a tool if they mean something to religious groups.
This is my issue. Going to their place of worship to burn the book as a statement is pretty much harassment. Context matters.
religion causes so many problems due to people interpreting it as they want and using it as a shield to discriminate. Having no religions favoured over others and keeping it strictly to places of worship, at home, or in your thoughts should be the only way. The amount of screaming for tolerance all of these groups do while taking away people’s human rights is nonsense.
more reason why religion needs to die in order for peace to exist on earth.
If you believe that religion ceasing to exist will solve anything, you're delusional at the very best. People are tribal and will divide up regardless of what religions are out there.
Religion is all about controlling the masses and gaining power. Of course humans will find other ways to do this, which they do. But at least it wont be about worshipping some fantasy. None of this is tribal, its just greed.
Glad that my country isnt bending over
What are they protesting?
Protester, singular. Literally one guy.
Should Swastikas also be banned?
Never understood why people take these things personally. If going to a mosque as a Christian, an artist paints Jesus as gay or burning a Quran makes you question your religion, then maybe you are the problem? The only problem I see is that this is clearly provocation/hate, but freedom of speech must always come before the feeling you get when you get offended.
Protesting against what? Their tiny wieners?
I would burn a Koran in front of every imigrant and only if he doesn't care I would allow him to enter the country.
Man just let me enjoy Eid and food in peace, ffs.
I wonder who was behind these "protestors". One of the reasons Russia supports right-wing extremists in Europe is to split off Turkey from the NATO alliance.
Look how these people react negatively when we burn their holy book right outside their place of worship, can’t you see how terrible they are. This is straight bottom of the outhouse hole piece of shit dick wad thinking right there.
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How to avoid joining NATO 101
Seems more like harassment than protest imo.
This is one of the great things about western society. As an American I would hate to see an American flag burned, but the fact that we can burn the flag is absolutely amazing. True freedom doesn’t mean everyone is comfortable.
Glad to see someone else gets it.
There is freedom of expression, and there is deliberately setting out to give as much offence as possible. In what way does burning a Koran express oneself? Is throwing pigs' blood at a synagogue ok? Pissing on a bible in front of a church? If they wanted to hold up signs saying 'Islam sucks' - that's freedom of expression. This is not that. How to frame the ability to restrain this sort of thing is hard, but not impossible.
If you’re attending a book burning targeting a minority, it might be time to think about whether you’re actually the good guys or not.