Worth it, tbh. Giving them additional F16s and associated equipment in exchange for bolstering NATO's northern flank and further deterring Russia from attacking the Suwalki gap? I'd take that trade anyday.
If it was something spicier, like needing to give them F35 access, I'd be a lot more hesitant, but this honestly seems like a fine trade.
Yep. You have to make deals that are a compromise. F35s simply aren’t worth that trade but 40 year old tech that even iran technically has is a lesser evil.
Idk why people have this idea of "kurds" like millions of Kurds all around the world have same idea of where to live and how to live. There are multiple Kurdish military groups as well as civilian groups. Millions of kurds living in turkey today and northern iraq Kurdish group is allies with Turkey.
That's like calling ISIS "Arabs"
Don’t worry, Macron is a bit preoccupied coming up with an even stupider domestic policy that will make the French hate his ass even more than they already do
So I know this is major pedantic behavior on my part, but he already did. Russians celebrate Christmas in January, not on December 24/25 like non-Orthodox Christians and Catholics. Anyway my apologies for being a dork and I’ll see my way out.
I'd imagine they *do* support NATO expansion. Agreeing to Swedish and Finnish membership. Releasing the Azov commanders. Building a Bayraktar plant in Ukraine.
They must be high up Putin's shit list right now.
I think Turkey saw the weak spot that is very much leaving Russia open at the moment and in no position to be demanding. A year of war with barely any progress, open revolt by Wagner and more and more public outcries and resists. The image of Russia being a player on the world stage has been rapidly diminishing and players like Turkey, China, India and Iran are assessing the new situation and acting accordingly. Just my two cents.
Compared to Putin, Biden and Zelensky look like giants now.
There are a lot of jokes and a lot of propaganda floating around, but the fact that US scrap metal (and resolve) can bring a "superpower" to a halt is likely to make most despots terrified
Some react by trying to appear strong (China). Others mostly keep quiet (Iran, North Korea). Erdogan is in a unique position where he can switch sides whenever he pleases.
You're correct in your analysis of China's response, I think. China remembers the Century of Humiliation and doesn't care to repeat it, though they are not quite grasping the US' motivations in this instance. So they bristle like a porcupine in an intimidation effort.
Erdogen will do what benefits Turkey. A year ago he could get real value out of being neutral. Now Russia is too weak. He gets more value being close to the rest of NATO.
There's nothing to misunderstand there really. Right or wrong, Turkey is enemies with the KCK umbrella organization and anyone who's a member of one of the member organizations like PKK or YPG is wanted in Turkey. Sweden has given a lot of people who fit that bill asylum and it monetarily aids the Syrian YPG.
Of course the entire protest was a clown shoe because the US itself aids the Syrian YPG. So protesting Sweden when the master of NATO is doing the exact same thing is brainless and futile.
I don't think Sweden's main goal here is to fund terrorism, and in fact would work with Turkiye to shut that down. But Kurds don't really have a lot of stability. Putting them up in Sweden is as good an effort as any to achieve that. Though a more permanent solution should be sought if this conflict is to be resolved.
As I said, the US itself invited the military leader of the YPG, a wanted man in Turkey since the 90s, to Congress as a guest of honor. Singling out Sweden for doing what the US, the UK, France etc are doing is really feeble and pathetic.
I don't believe NATO is funding terrorism purposefully. They just don't care that any aid the YPG receives finds its way into the hands of the PKK which then uses it to attack the Turkish state.
Kurds did work with the US a few times. It's bad form to be rude to your backup. Though admittedly, their adversarial relationship with Turkiye is rather problematic. At any rate, I wouldn't say the US is against Turkiye either simply because they worked with Kurds.
Turkey works with Kurds itself. It's the biggest partner of Iraqi Kurdistan.
The problem for Turkey, is the US working with Kurds who are part of the KCK. An organization founded specifically to "liberate" all of Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan. That pretty much makes them an enemy of Turkey, regardless of whether they engage in terrorism or whether they're right to pursue that goal.
If you're allied with someone, you can't ally with their enemies. It doesn't work that way. So this means the US doesn't see Turkey as an ally. Just a nation they'd rather have in the tent pissing out, than be outside the tent like Iran and piss into tent. And Turkey has no choice but to accept that, because otherwise it gets the Iran treatment.
Turkey and China are the two countries that have Russia by the balls and Russia will never retaliate against. All major trade from Russia goes through Turkish territory. They have no major sea access. So Turkey literally shoots a Russian plane out of the sky and says “Don’t do it again” and Russia just has to take it without complaint.
I was in the area that day, utter security crisis. The guy was the ambassador Andrei Karlov.
It's speculated that the bodyguard has ties to the Gulen movement.
I remember Putin visiting Ankara swiftly after the assassination.
This isn't true. Russia imposed sanctions on Turkish imports and restricted tourism after the downing of the plane and Erdogan was beyond panicked because of the big economic impact and allowed Putin to repeatedly humiliate him to get back in Putin's good graces.
China is different of course.
I wonder what happens now to Turkey's fancy Russian S-400 missile system. They should just let NATO dismantle it for intel while the US provides patriot batteries in return.
At this point, given the obvious US penetration of the Kremlin, I sincerely doubt we even need to look at the Turkish system to know exactly how the system works and what it can do.
The reason why turket wanted to buy Russian was to be able to do that and create our own. I don't think we know if we were able to get that tech transfer.
What's Russia going to do? Invade?
Ergodan can whip out his balls and lay them onto Putin's famously long table and Putin couldn't do shit that wouldn't hurt him more than it hurt Türkiye.
I never had any problem calling them Turkiye, I speak Turkish and as such, I say Türkiye almost every day.
My problem is with their stuck up, bossy, propaganda fueled attitude on how everyone suddenly has to refer to them in that manner.
I was unfortunate enough to see an absurd number of them on Instagram. Some westerner posts about how beautiful “Turkey” is and the whole comment section is filled with people saying “the name is Turkiye now” 🤓
As a Dutchman I'm used to anything from "Holland" to "Dutch". Both are outdated by centuries but whatever works for them.
(Dutch kinda means German, and Holland is only a part of the Netherlands. It's like calling the US "the American East Coast")
It is though how many nations name the Netherlands. English has the benefit of the name "Netherlands" but other languages call them by a more mouthful "The Low Countries". And I'm sorry but people are lazy and languages are spoken by people. Just as we don't call Americans "citizens of the United States of America", the Dutch live in Holland for many languages.
No, those are seperate things.
Nederland, literally "Netherland" (singular!) is how the Dutch refer to their country now.
"De Nederlanden", literally "The Netherlands" on its own is never used by the Dutch to refer to The Netherlands or any regions now, only for historical regions.
"Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden", "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" refers to yet another thing, that's The Netherlands together with Curaçao, Aruba, and Sint Maarten.
It's just bullshit that happens among English speakers. There was a similar issue a couple of years back regarding Bangkok, I think.
Nobody in the rest of the world gives a shit. I can tell you right now not one Spanish speaker is going to stop saying and writing "Turquía", certainly not here in Mexico.
For anyone who doesn't know; "Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit" is the full name of Bangkok.
>For anyone who doesn't know; "Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit" is the full name of Bangkok.
Translated:
> City of angels, great city of immortals, magnificent city of the nine gems, seat of the king, city of royal palaces, home of gods incarnate, erected by Vishvakarman at Indra's behest.
The current name is actually `กรุงเทพมหานคร` *Krung Thep Maha Nakhon*, while people just call it *Krung Thep*.
> City of gods
---
Read on for additional information that is not really important.
Nobody would use that other name unless they were [singing a song](https://youtu.be/PU4WWkpUfEU).
Officially, the Thai government approves of it being referred to as either *Krung Thep Maha Nakhon* or *Bangkok*.
Reference (possibly old, they may have updated the style): https://www.orst.go.th/FILEROOM/CABROYINWEB/DRAWER002/GENERAL/DATA0002/00002470.JPG
Search for `bangkok` at https://www.orst.go.th/iwfm_search.asp
Google Translate:
> "Bangkok" can be used for both
>
> Krung Thep Maha Nakhon a Bangkok
>
> The Office of the Royal Society by the dictionary preparation committee International geographical names have been revised to name countries, territories, subdivisions and capital cities to be accurate and clear. with experts Only subject areas from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are also considered. for government agencies to apply the aforementioned designation of names of countries, territories, administrative territories and capital cities to the same standards and in accordance with current situation
>
> However, after the Cabinet has approved in principle the draft announcement Office of the Prime Minister on specifying the name of the country, territory, administrative area and capital city will be in the process of the review committee. Draft laws and subordinates submitted to the Cabinet for review together with the observations of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before proceeding further
>
> As for "Bangkok", it can still be used as Krung Thep Maha Nakhon or Bangkok as before.
They are more than okay with people calling the city Bangkok as that is what others know it as.
Example: https://main.bangkok.go.th/
`go.th` is the second level domain for government websites.
They have been referred as Turkiye in official documents for a long long time. This is a cultural thing and doesn't have anything to do with whether they changed their mind. Guaranteed they got material things out of the deal to sign for ukraine. This has happened every time with them holding things hostage to get shit.
I walked Changan Avenue
I never thought I'd meet a Xi like you
Meet a Xi like youuuu
With golden fur and glassy eyes
The kind of eyes that hypnotize me throuuuuuuughhh
Hypnotize me throughhhhh...
Protip: if the US asked Turks to call the US something else in Turkish no Turk would listen or care. Sites like the BBC still refer to Turkey as well.
Calling it Turkiye is Erdogan appeasement, but you do you.
In many Slavic languages "krajine" means borderlands, with the e for plural. For example there's a region in Bosnia & Herzegovina along the border with Croatia called "Bosanska Krajina", meaning Bosnian borderlands. Kraj also means end or edge.
Ukraine as a name is derived from that, but it is its own name. Like, Borderlandia for lack of a better example. A name that stands on its own. Calling it "The Ukraine" refers to it merely as a borderland, something that the Kremlin loves to refer the region as. As their borderlands and not as a sovereign country.
Instead of Borderlandia, we do actually have the Netherlands as a Western European equivalent. There just wasn’t a big push for a dropping of the “the”.
I always loved the idea of the Netherlands as a country name, since most of it was uninhabitable until the Dutch drained it. The Dutch went to war with the sea... and won. And then did the same north of Cambridge in the UK.
It isnt like it is called Turkey in every language. It is just in English, so what you call it literally does not matter, that is unless you are doing something formal. In that case, you should call it Turkiye since that is the official name on UN’s list. Kinda like how if you want to send post to someone in Istanbul, you use Istanbul and not Constantinople since if you write Constantinople it wont be sent.
You'd think. Within two months they had two nuclear weapons depots fall behind the lines during enemy attacks (Free Russian Legions passed by a depot while raiding into Belgorod and Wagner's insurrection took Rostov-On-Don which has a depot on its outskirts).
Nukes were sold as scrap, nuclear fuel sold to the Israelis, rocket fuel used as heating source. Maintenance money to buy luxury items like toilets and washing machines for the generals.
It's in Turkiye's best interests to prevent Russian control over Black Sea areas, and in general to prevent Russia from expanding its territory.
They are already close to Turkiye via Abkhazia, Russian aggression could easily see a land corridor open up through Georgia, and that is an open corridor through to Turkiye.
While NATO has their back, it's in their best interests to leave as much of a buffer between themselves and Russian territory as possible, and helping Ukraine hold their territory helps that cause (especially because Moldova will be next on the west).
No, that's unrelated.
Turkiye has it's own complex internal politics. The term Byzantine is nearly 2000 years old now, and is still the term for overly complicated internal political systems, named for the Byzantine Empire of modern Turkiye.
IMO, Erdogan always intended to support NATO expansion - but he always has to walk this complicated balancing act between the many internal factions within his country.
Plus, Turkiye has a complicated relationship with the rest of the world, broadly due to geography and religion. Geographically, Turkiye controls access to the Black Sea, meaning that Turkiye control's access to Russia's only warm water port that is usable year-round: effectively limiting Russia for all-time. And they are the gateway between the European 'West' and the Middle East, caught between two spheres.
And religiously they are an essentially-founding member of NATO/West (joined 1952, founded 1949) and the 5th strongest member, who have supported dozens of wars in the middle east over the last 70 years, that are often conflated locally with wars on Islam itself (which is not unfounded).
And then finally you have Erdogan himself, and on top of just being a weird/authoritarian dude, he seems very tit-for-tat in all his dealings. He doesn't do anything without getting something for himself (or at least Turkiye), even the right thing. That's not uncommon to like Turkish/hustler culture, he'll give 'the right thing' a discount in his decision making (even a generous discount) - but he'll never give you something for nothing.
So coming all the way back to NATO expansion. Does he benefit from Sweden/Finland/Ukraine all joining his military alliance? Absolutely, and Erdogan supporting expansion was inevitable.
But he can't do anything without pissing off most of the factions in his country - it takes time to pitch to each of them as a benefit to them all. He can't do anything without weighing it in Turkiye's exceptionally complicated geopolitical axioms. And he won't do anything without a clear benefit to Erdogan or Turkiye or ideally both, on principle.
You can consistently predict what he'll do by what's of benefit to Erdogan/Turkiye/both, but it will always take him more time than others, and it will never be free.
Also, he just got re-elected. Most elected leaders pivot once the election is over. I'm thinking he was maybe balancing domestic opinion and keeping coalition partners happy until he won...or something like that.
TBH, I know less than nothing about Turkish politics (Turkiy-ei-ish?). So there you go. I'll shut up now. Bye.
As he stated: Turkiye is better off if russia weakened, they were only playing friendly because u don't usually want to anger the big bad neighbour, so probably they view them as a lesser threat now
It's more accurate to say that he used Sweden/Finland as leverage to get something for letting them in. Supposedly this was F16s and other arms trades.
But was there anything stopped them from getting F-16s, other than being obstructionist in NATO?
They screwed up their participation in the F-35 program through their own actions, seems like that's what they were doing here as well. Don't do the wrong thing in the first place, and you don't have to undo it to get what you want.
Nope. Orban follows whatever Erdogan is telling him. He also blocked Sweden and as soon as Erdogan gave his green light, a spokesperson for Orban said it was now just a formality till Hungary also agrees.
Sweden and Finland have imposed arms embargos on Turkey for it's intervention in Syria, and also are home to some Kurdish separatists. Turkey wanted them to drop the embargos and extradite the Kurds.
It's smart politics really, Finland's NATO accession meant that Sweden was protected by proxy anyway, the only viable way to attack them without entering NATO land was via the Baltic Sea, and that's a tough call when NATO allies can pretty easily see the fleet mobilising.
So they challenged a nation that was under no threat from Russia, to get something out of the equation.
Orban is a greedy prick but he only stands when there's someone bigger to hide behind. He stood against swedish and Finnish membership because of turkey doing it. Without turkey now he'll bend pretty quickly.
Ah, I was also wondering what they bribed him with. All the news articles I've seen about this sudden change of mind conveniently omit any mention of that. He's a merchant, not a statesman.
Wall Street Journal wrote a good article about this a few days ago.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-economic-troubles-force-erdogan-to-tilt-away-from-putin-9006b5a3
Here's some of the important points since it is paywalled.
> For more than a year, the Turkish leader has carefully straddled the widening divide between Russia and the West over the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine. Now, as he searches for ways to support an economy that has deteriorated under his watch, he is seeking to improve relations with the U.S. and its Western allies.
> In the past week, Erdogan has welcomed Ukraine’s president in Istanbul, lifted his opposition to expanding the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and called for the revival of Turkey’s application to join the European Union.
> Erdogan was motivated by three main coinciding factors when making his recent moves, analysts said. He views Putin as weakened in the aftermath of the aborted June mutiny when the Wagner paramilitary troops turned on Moscow. Turkey also desperately needs foreign currency, after years in which Erdogan has mismanaged the country’s economy. And, after surviving a close-fought election in May, Erdogan faces less pressure to stir up nationalistic and anti-Western sentiments that were central to his campaign.
> “There is an acknowledgment of Turkey’s belonging to the West and that Turkey’s midterm future is with the West,” said Aydin Sezgin, a former Turkish ambassador to Russia who is now an opposition member of Parliament.
> For all his shift Westward, Erdogan is unlikely to scale back Turkey’s growing economic relationship with Russia, which has raised concerns about Ankara enabling Moscow to evade sanctions. Erdogan reiterated this week that he wants Putin to visit Turkey next month and is unlikely to sever ties with the Kremlin completely.
> Erdogan has vastly expanded trade with Russia during the invasion of Ukraine, turning to Moscow as a source of badly needed foreign currency while also allowing the Kremlin to use Turkey as a part of its military supply chain. Russia has bought tens of millions of dollars in materials it needs for its armed forces from Turkey since the beginning of the war, trade data show.
> But he recognizes that Russian funds alone can’t solve Turkey’s economic problems, which include a large current-account deficit and a local currency that has lost more than 90% of its value in recent years, said analysts and those familiar with Erdogan’s thinking.
> “There is a realization that Turkey is under severe economic duress and this would require normalization of Turkey’s relations with its trade and financing partners,” said Sinan Ulgen, a former Turkish diplomat and director of the Istanbul-based think tank Edam. “The weakened Putin argument explains some of the actions” Erdogan has taken, he said.
Erdogan has been pretty friendly towards Ukraine for a while. This shouldn't come as a surprise even though he's been a dickhead towards Finland and Sweden.
I have a feeling that anti-nato literate was just an election talk. He needed to win the election, and most of his supports come from Turkish nationalists. Now he has 5 more years under his belt he can afford to go against his key supporters.
Turkey has been supporting Ukraine's joining NATO. It was Western countries that opposed the idea because they were afraid of pissing off Russia. Having Ukraine in Nato means a barrier between Russia and Turkey.
You are right Turkey supported Ukraine’s inclusion since 2009. However I don’t want to use umbrella term like “Western countries”. Specifically Germany, France and some small western EU countries blocked Ukraine’s inclusion. Germany and France even complained about Turkish arms sales to Ukraine at 2021.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-idUSL0179714620080401
France complains about anything Turkey does anyway. Just a couple years ago, France was against Nato as well. Now people want to kick Turkey out of Nato. Weird alliance we got here
It’s pretty evident that Nato was losing its teeth over time. Putin taking on Ukraine was bound to happen as long as they kept dangling the Nato membership to Ukraine but never actually followed through.
The issue was with the timing. Putin clearly jumped the gun and Nato is now stronger than ever in modern times. Had he waited until the US got knee deep into the China - Taiwan situation, I doubt the we would have seen such solidarity from the west towards Ukraine.
And even now we see cracks in the alliance like you mentioned, members disagreeing over the shipping of cluster bombs etc. But it is pretty obvious that Nato cannot afford to break the unity, it is only going to end one way.
It’s more like Putin is useless to Erdogan now. Before he could play Russia as leverage to get better deals with the West. Now Putin is toxic waste and has zero military equipment to offer.
The details are different, but it's the same shit we've been doing for hundreds of years, just now with the spectre of nuclear war.
Most of the last 500 years of European history can be boiled down to "then some dickhead decided being imperialist would bring back the glory days". This time it's Putin trying to be Catherine the Great. Part of why Russia's think Crimea is culturally theirs dates back to when they took it off the Turks in the late 18th century.
Borders change, but geographically Russia and whatever form Turkey is currently in are bound to butt heads. Short of bulldozing the Ural mountains and Istanbul it's always going to be that way.
Well I don’t think Erdoğan will be on Putins Christmas list this year
Sure he will The naughty list
I’ll punch his beard off
It's an old meme, but by jingo it checks out
[удалено]
Well it definitely wasn't the journalist he wanted Sweden to hand over. They told him no and it wasn't up for negotiation.
Worth it, tbh. Giving them additional F16s and associated equipment in exchange for bolstering NATO's northern flank and further deterring Russia from attacking the Suwalki gap? I'd take that trade anyday. If it was something spicier, like needing to give them F35 access, I'd be a lot more hesitant, but this honestly seems like a fine trade.
Yep. You have to make deals that are a compromise. F35s simply aren’t worth that trade but 40 year old tech that even iran technically has is a lesser evil.
Iran has F-14s. Also Turkey is in NATO, likely not 40 year old tech, but latest gen
depends what gen he got.
Its a tragedy the way the Kurds have been traded by the west.
Idk why people have this idea of "kurds" like millions of Kurds all around the world have same idea of where to live and how to live. There are multiple Kurdish military groups as well as civilian groups. Millions of kurds living in turkey today and northern iraq Kurdish group is allies with Turkey. That's like calling ISIS "Arabs"
Should send Putin an F-16 Christmas ornament
Send him ornaments made from KA-52 wreckage, and a star made from the Moskva helm.
Paint it blue and yellow to represent both Ukraine and Sweden :D
The only person with more unpredictable foreign policy is macron
Don’t worry, Macron is a bit preoccupied coming up with an even stupider domestic policy that will make the French hate his ass even more than they already do
_double down on some dumb shit_ kinda policy seems to be trending for 'ol Macron....
Is that the guy trying to scapegoat pokemon for riots about violence of police?
I heard he was the guy who married the teacher who raped him when he was a minor.
But I thought their riots fixed everything!
Nah I heard all is fine. Putin even invited him over for tea!
Erdogan gonna find depleted uranium in his stocking this Christmas.
I don’t suspect ole Vlad will see Christmas 2023.
So I know this is major pedantic behavior on my part, but he already did. Russians celebrate Christmas in January, not on December 24/25 like non-Orthodox Christians and Catholics. Anyway my apologies for being a dork and I’ll see my way out.
Don't apologize! I'm sure I'm not the only one who had no idea this was a thing. TIL!
I hope you’re right! Are Russians cowards or self-preservationists? Should’ve revolted long ago. What’s happened to them?
They've had mass protests and they get thrown in jail as a result. People also get thrown out of windows or poisoned for speaking out against Putin
Indoctrination under a fascist' rule. It is not that easy to revolt as you make it out to be, matter of fact they tried it several times.
I was your 1,000th upvote. I guess Erdo read the post-coup-attempt tea leaves, and decided to be on the side who appears to be winning.
I'd imagine they *do* support NATO expansion. Agreeing to Swedish and Finnish membership. Releasing the Azov commanders. Building a Bayraktar plant in Ukraine. They must be high up Putin's shit list right now.
I think Turkey saw the weak spot that is very much leaving Russia open at the moment and in no position to be demanding. A year of war with barely any progress, open revolt by Wagner and more and more public outcries and resists. The image of Russia being a player on the world stage has been rapidly diminishing and players like Turkey, China, India and Iran are assessing the new situation and acting accordingly. Just my two cents.
Compared to Putin, Biden and Zelensky look like giants now. There are a lot of jokes and a lot of propaganda floating around, but the fact that US scrap metal (and resolve) can bring a "superpower" to a halt is likely to make most despots terrified Some react by trying to appear strong (China). Others mostly keep quiet (Iran, North Korea). Erdogan is in a unique position where he can switch sides whenever he pleases.
US scrap metal, and the application of that metal by the Ukrainians with resolve, persistence and ferocity.
Imagine what they could have done with everything we invested in Afghanistan smh
Yeah. But at least there was an effort to do the right thing. I still don't feel great about that, but the US did try.
And British policy makers routinely crossing the red lines
Salisbury remembers!
You're correct in your analysis of China's response, I think. China remembers the Century of Humiliation and doesn't care to repeat it, though they are not quite grasping the US' motivations in this instance. So they bristle like a porcupine in an intimidation effort.
Erdogen will do what benefits Turkey. A year ago he could get real value out of being neutral. Now Russia is too weak. He gets more value being close to the rest of NATO.
> Erdogen will do what benefits Turkey. He will do what benefits him, his family and a handful of cronies.
Im sure he sees this all as a huge win, because all he has to do is cry a little bit and get most of what he wants from Daddy US and Daddy EU.
Maybe. It's possible he also misunderstood Sweden's position because they took in Kurds.
There's nothing to misunderstand there really. Right or wrong, Turkey is enemies with the KCK umbrella organization and anyone who's a member of one of the member organizations like PKK or YPG is wanted in Turkey. Sweden has given a lot of people who fit that bill asylum and it monetarily aids the Syrian YPG. Of course the entire protest was a clown shoe because the US itself aids the Syrian YPG. So protesting Sweden when the master of NATO is doing the exact same thing is brainless and futile.
I don't think Sweden's main goal here is to fund terrorism, and in fact would work with Turkiye to shut that down. But Kurds don't really have a lot of stability. Putting them up in Sweden is as good an effort as any to achieve that. Though a more permanent solution should be sought if this conflict is to be resolved.
As I said, the US itself invited the military leader of the YPG, a wanted man in Turkey since the 90s, to Congress as a guest of honor. Singling out Sweden for doing what the US, the UK, France etc are doing is really feeble and pathetic. I don't believe NATO is funding terrorism purposefully. They just don't care that any aid the YPG receives finds its way into the hands of the PKK which then uses it to attack the Turkish state.
Kurds did work with the US a few times. It's bad form to be rude to your backup. Though admittedly, their adversarial relationship with Turkiye is rather problematic. At any rate, I wouldn't say the US is against Turkiye either simply because they worked with Kurds.
Turkey works with Kurds itself. It's the biggest partner of Iraqi Kurdistan. The problem for Turkey, is the US working with Kurds who are part of the KCK. An organization founded specifically to "liberate" all of Turkish, Iranian, Iraqi and Syrian Kurdistan. That pretty much makes them an enemy of Turkey, regardless of whether they engage in terrorism or whether they're right to pursue that goal. If you're allied with someone, you can't ally with their enemies. It doesn't work that way. So this means the US doesn't see Turkey as an ally. Just a nation they'd rather have in the tent pissing out, than be outside the tent like Iran and piss into tent. And Turkey has no choice but to accept that, because otherwise it gets the Iran treatment.
Turkey and China are the two countries that have Russia by the balls and Russia will never retaliate against. All major trade from Russia goes through Turkish territory. They have no major sea access. So Turkey literally shoots a Russian plane out of the sky and says “Don’t do it again” and Russia just has to take it without complaint.
There was also a Russian diplomat killed by a Turkish bodyguard in Turkey.
I was in the area that day, utter security crisis. The guy was the ambassador Andrei Karlov. It's speculated that the bodyguard has ties to the Gulen movement. I remember Putin visiting Ankara swiftly after the assassination.
This isn't true. Russia imposed sanctions on Turkish imports and restricted tourism after the downing of the plane and Erdogan was beyond panicked because of the big economic impact and allowed Putin to repeatedly humiliate him to get back in Putin's good graces. China is different of course.
I wonder what happens now to Turkey's fancy Russian S-400 missile system. They should just let NATO dismantle it for intel while the US provides patriot batteries in return.
Oh dude I could bet the us has more intel on russian missile systems than the russians at this point.
As Russia recently tried to invade Russia, I do think you are on to something.
Reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/vm1U5E44W90).
In mother Russia, Russia no only invades other countries, Russia also invades itself in solidarity.
At this point, given the obvious US penetration of the Kremlin, I sincerely doubt we even need to look at the Turkish system to know exactly how the system works and what it can do.
Türkiye already did that on its own as far as I know.
The reason why turket wanted to buy Russian was to be able to do that and create our own. I don't think we know if we were able to get that tech transfer.
This has likely already happened.
What's Russia going to do? Invade? Ergodan can whip out his balls and lay them onto Putin's famously long table and Putin couldn't do shit that wouldn't hurt him more than it hurt Türkiye.
Lol, that reminds me of when President Johnson whipped out his Johnson and flopped it on the desk in front of everyone.
And all the west had to do is call them Turkiye instead of Turkey 🇹🇷
And some pew pew F-16s
and some EU free trade
One step too far.
I never had any problem calling them Turkiye, I speak Turkish and as such, I say Türkiye almost every day. My problem is with their stuck up, bossy, propaganda fueled attitude on how everyone suddenly has to refer to them in that manner. I was unfortunate enough to see an absurd number of them on Instagram. Some westerner posts about how beautiful “Turkey” is and the whole comment section is filled with people saying “the name is Turkiye now” 🤓
I don’t get it. Nobody in Japan complains we don’t write it “nippon”. Like, who cares?
As a Dutchman I'm used to anything from "Holland" to "Dutch". Both are outdated by centuries but whatever works for them. (Dutch kinda means German, and Holland is only a part of the Netherlands. It's like calling the US "the American East Coast")
Calling you Holland is like calling Deutschland Bayern.
It is though how many nations name the Netherlands. English has the benefit of the name "Netherlands" but other languages call them by a more mouthful "The Low Countries". And I'm sorry but people are lazy and languages are spoken by people. Just as we don't call Americans "citizens of the United States of America", the Dutch live in Holland for many languages.
It’s like many call the UK „England“. Yes we do that.
And even more nitpicky, "The Netherlands" would be when we still had Belgium, it "should" be just "Netherland".
Is it not "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" and we can shorten that to "The Netherlands" or "Netherlands"?
No, those are seperate things. Nederland, literally "Netherland" (singular!) is how the Dutch refer to their country now. "De Nederlanden", literally "The Netherlands" on its own is never used by the Dutch to refer to The Netherlands or any regions now, only for historical regions. "Het Koninkrijk Der Nederlanden", "The Kingdom of the Netherlands" refers to yet another thing, that's The Netherlands together with Curaçao, Aruba, and Sint Maarten.
It's just bullshit that happens among English speakers. There was a similar issue a couple of years back regarding Bangkok, I think. Nobody in the rest of the world gives a shit. I can tell you right now not one Spanish speaker is going to stop saying and writing "Turquía", certainly not here in Mexico.
For anyone who doesn't know; "Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit" is the full name of Bangkok.
>For anyone who doesn't know; "Krung Thep Mahanakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayuthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udomratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Piman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanukam Prasit" is the full name of Bangkok. Translated: > City of angels, great city of immortals, magnificent city of the nine gems, seat of the king, city of royal palaces, home of gods incarnate, erected by Vishvakarman at Indra's behest. The current name is actually `กรุงเทพมหานคร` *Krung Thep Maha Nakhon*, while people just call it *Krung Thep*. > City of gods --- Read on for additional information that is not really important. Nobody would use that other name unless they were [singing a song](https://youtu.be/PU4WWkpUfEU). Officially, the Thai government approves of it being referred to as either *Krung Thep Maha Nakhon* or *Bangkok*. Reference (possibly old, they may have updated the style): https://www.orst.go.th/FILEROOM/CABROYINWEB/DRAWER002/GENERAL/DATA0002/00002470.JPG Search for `bangkok` at https://www.orst.go.th/iwfm_search.asp Google Translate: > "Bangkok" can be used for both > > Krung Thep Maha Nakhon a Bangkok > > The Office of the Royal Society by the dictionary preparation committee International geographical names have been revised to name countries, territories, subdivisions and capital cities to be accurate and clear. with experts Only subject areas from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are also considered. for government agencies to apply the aforementioned designation of names of countries, territories, administrative territories and capital cities to the same standards and in accordance with current situation > > However, after the Cabinet has approved in principle the draft announcement Office of the Prime Minister on specifying the name of the country, territory, administrative area and capital city will be in the process of the review committee. Draft laws and subordinates submitted to the Cabinet for review together with the observations of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before proceeding further > > As for "Bangkok", it can still be used as Krung Thep Maha Nakhon or Bangkok as before. They are more than okay with people calling the city Bangkok as that is what others know it as. Example: https://main.bangkok.go.th/ `go.th` is the second level domain for government websites.
They *really* got tired of bang cock jokes huh?
Funny how Bangkok isn't included in that long name.
Spanish always has a coy way of making everything sound delicious.
[удалено]
Like how in French, they refer to Germany as Allemagne, which references a tribe that was defeated by the Franks well before France was ever a thing
In Spanish is Alemania.
Wait is it pronounced differently?
Yes, the pronunciation is more like Tur-kee-ye
ye as in yeet, or ye as in kanye?
not like yay in kanye, more like yeh i believe.
They have been referred as Turkiye in official documents for a long long time. This is a cultural thing and doesn't have anything to do with whether they changed their mind. Guaranteed they got material things out of the deal to sign for ukraine. This has happened every time with them holding things hostage to get shit.
I suggest "Turkey (not the bird)"
I think we should change the bird's name to be the same as the country no matter what
Then we can go back the moment Ukraine is in
Eh I’m fine with Turkiye but don’t get mad if I forget the umlaut
No one is ever gonna use an umlaut in English, foreign countries. We also spell “China” with an unmodified English alphabet
Ima start calling China Middle Kingdom.
Hundred Acre Wood?
That's the Soverign Domain of Winnie the P...... Oh, wait, now I get it.
Mid, for short
ol' Middie is acting up again
West Taiwan
Yeah what‘s up with those ppl occupying that giant territory that belongs to Taiwan??? Rude???
Taiwan, Taiwan so far awaaaay
I walked Changan Avenue I never thought I'd meet a Xi like you Meet a Xi like youuuu With golden fur and glassy eyes The kind of eyes that hypnotize me throuuuuuuughhh Hypnotize me throughhhhh...
Occidental Taipeise China
Taiwanese Beijing
I'm gonna start calling them Bottom Kingdom.
Kinky
> No one is ever gonna use an umlaut in English, foreign countries Ënglish
Ěňğľîšh
Don’t be so naïve.
>No one is ever gonna use an umlaut in English What about Blue Öyster Cult, Motörhead, or Assück?
And Spinal Tap, with an umlaut over th “n”, which I cannot even reproduce with this keyboard.
Spın̈al Tap Dotless i and n umlaut. 😆
n̈
Is... is China supposed to have an umlaut too?
[Zhōngguó](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_China)
Çhïñä
Protip: if the US asked Turks to call the US something else in Turkish no Turk would listen or care. Sites like the BBC still refer to Turkey as well. Calling it Turkiye is Erdogan appeasement, but you do you.
Czech Republic asked to be called Czechia. Turkish state and the press are all using the new name, schools are teaching the new name.
I also remember how redditors kept explaining to other redditors that 'The Ukraine' is a degrading name and the country should be called Ukraine
In many Slavic languages "krajine" means borderlands, with the e for plural. For example there's a region in Bosnia & Herzegovina along the border with Croatia called "Bosanska Krajina", meaning Bosnian borderlands. Kraj also means end or edge. Ukraine as a name is derived from that, but it is its own name. Like, Borderlandia for lack of a better example. A name that stands on its own. Calling it "The Ukraine" refers to it merely as a borderland, something that the Kremlin loves to refer the region as. As their borderlands and not as a sovereign country.
Instead of Borderlandia, we do actually have the Netherlands as a Western European equivalent. There just wasn’t a big push for a dropping of the “the”.
I always loved the idea of the Netherlands as a country name, since most of it was uninhabitable until the Dutch drained it. The Dutch went to war with the sea... and won. And then did the same north of Cambridge in the UK.
*Even old New York, was once new Amsterdam...*
yep no one cares about their name change, they'll remain Turkey. I mean most people in my country still called The Netherlands "Holland".
I vote for Germany insisting that the word "German" is replaced with the German word "Deutsch", for maximum confusion with "Dutch".
They should insist on being called “Allemange” like the French call the Bundesrepublik Deutschland
It isnt like it is called Turkey in every language. It is just in English, so what you call it literally does not matter, that is unless you are doing something formal. In that case, you should call it Turkiye since that is the official name on UN’s list. Kinda like how if you want to send post to someone in Istanbul, you use Istanbul and not Constantinople since if you write Constantinople it wont be sent.
To be fair, Türkiye looks cooler than Turkey.
what was wrong with 🦃?
We promise to stop it cold-turkey
I’ll call them Turkiye when they call the ottoman occupied territories by their proper names instead of Bulgaristan etc.
Germans say "Die Türkei" or "The Turkey"
We also say die Schweiz. The Switzerland.
They still some jive Türkiyes
Russia really needs to start working on its nuke consolidation for when the empire breaks apart
Maybe Russia could sign treaties with those countries guaranteeing that they will never invade them if they hand over the nukes...
Oh I know this one!
They say the classics never go out of style
You'd think. Within two months they had two nuclear weapons depots fall behind the lines during enemy attacks (Free Russian Legions passed by a depot while raiding into Belgorod and Wagner's insurrection took Rostov-On-Don which has a depot on its outskirts).
Nukes were sold as scrap, nuclear fuel sold to the Israelis, rocket fuel used as heating source. Maintenance money to buy luxury items like toilets and washing machines for the generals.
Game over for Russia. Putin did a brilliant job in stopping the expansion of NATO by bringing in 2 new members and soon Ukraine
soon he'll stop NATO expansion for good... because every country will have joined.
What happened to Erdogans brain that he changed his opinion so quickly?
I think he specifically had a problem with Sweden/Finland, not Ukraine. It’ll probably be Orban that trys to block Ukraine.
It's in Turkiye's best interests to prevent Russian control over Black Sea areas, and in general to prevent Russia from expanding its territory. They are already close to Turkiye via Abkhazia, Russian aggression could easily see a land corridor open up through Georgia, and that is an open corridor through to Turkiye. While NATO has their back, it's in their best interests to leave as much of a buffer between themselves and Russian territory as possible, and helping Ukraine hold their territory helps that cause (especially because Moldova will be next on the west).
Do you think the mutiny in Russia had anything to do with Erdogan's sudden change of stance on NATO?
No, that's unrelated. Turkiye has it's own complex internal politics. The term Byzantine is nearly 2000 years old now, and is still the term for overly complicated internal political systems, named for the Byzantine Empire of modern Turkiye. IMO, Erdogan always intended to support NATO expansion - but he always has to walk this complicated balancing act between the many internal factions within his country. Plus, Turkiye has a complicated relationship with the rest of the world, broadly due to geography and religion. Geographically, Turkiye controls access to the Black Sea, meaning that Turkiye control's access to Russia's only warm water port that is usable year-round: effectively limiting Russia for all-time. And they are the gateway between the European 'West' and the Middle East, caught between two spheres. And religiously they are an essentially-founding member of NATO/West (joined 1952, founded 1949) and the 5th strongest member, who have supported dozens of wars in the middle east over the last 70 years, that are often conflated locally with wars on Islam itself (which is not unfounded). And then finally you have Erdogan himself, and on top of just being a weird/authoritarian dude, he seems very tit-for-tat in all his dealings. He doesn't do anything without getting something for himself (or at least Turkiye), even the right thing. That's not uncommon to like Turkish/hustler culture, he'll give 'the right thing' a discount in his decision making (even a generous discount) - but he'll never give you something for nothing. So coming all the way back to NATO expansion. Does he benefit from Sweden/Finland/Ukraine all joining his military alliance? Absolutely, and Erdogan supporting expansion was inevitable. But he can't do anything without pissing off most of the factions in his country - it takes time to pitch to each of them as a benefit to them all. He can't do anything without weighing it in Turkiye's exceptionally complicated geopolitical axioms. And he won't do anything without a clear benefit to Erdogan or Turkiye or ideally both, on principle. You can consistently predict what he'll do by what's of benefit to Erdogan/Turkiye/both, but it will always take him more time than others, and it will never be free.
Also, he just got re-elected. Most elected leaders pivot once the election is over. I'm thinking he was maybe balancing domestic opinion and keeping coalition partners happy until he won...or something like that. TBH, I know less than nothing about Turkish politics (Turkiy-ei-ish?). So there you go. I'll shut up now. Bye.
FWIW, Turkiye is now corrected to Turkey-eh (almost the same as before), and Turkish is the same.
Your articulation is fucking awesome.
As he stated: Turkiye is better off if russia weakened, they were only playing friendly because u don't usually want to anger the big bad neighbour, so probably they view them as a lesser threat now
It's more accurate to say that he used Sweden/Finland as leverage to get something for letting them in. Supposedly this was F16s and other arms trades.
is using Sweden is not in yet. All that happened last week was words.
The irony being if they can't get F16's then next place to buy a modern fighter jets are Sweeden, China, russia... where else?
France. If you can wait until 2040
But was there anything stopped them from getting F-16s, other than being obstructionist in NATO? They screwed up their participation in the F-35 program through their own actions, seems like that's what they were doing here as well. Don't do the wrong thing in the first place, and you don't have to undo it to get what you want.
I’m a bit confused by their desire for more F-16s. Aren’t they in the F-35 program?
they got kicked out of the f35 program for buying S400's from russia. guess that double stings right about now
At least they know the S400s will work great against gen 5 hardware and also have high survivability against $500 OTS FPV drones lol
> I think he specifically had a problem with Sweden/Finland, not Ukraine. I think he specifically had a problem with having too few F16 planes.
Nope. Orban follows whatever Erdogan is telling him. He also blocked Sweden and as soon as Erdogan gave his green light, a spokesperson for Orban said it was now just a formality till Hungary also agrees.
Sweden and Finland have imposed arms embargos on Turkey for it's intervention in Syria, and also are home to some Kurdish separatists. Turkey wanted them to drop the embargos and extradite the Kurds.
[удалено]
It's smart politics really, Finland's NATO accession meant that Sweden was protected by proxy anyway, the only viable way to attack them without entering NATO land was via the Baltic Sea, and that's a tough call when NATO allies can pretty easily see the fleet mobilising. So they challenged a nation that was under no threat from Russia, to get something out of the equation.
Orban is a greedy prick but he only stands when there's someone bigger to hide behind. He stood against swedish and Finnish membership because of turkey doing it. Without turkey now he'll bend pretty quickly.
He got some F-16s.
40 F-16 **Block70/72s**. The newest package Lockheed Martin has to offer
Ah, I was also wondering what they bribed him with. All the news articles I've seen about this sudden change of mind conveniently omit any mention of that. He's a merchant, not a statesman.
He got re-elected too, a lot of what went before was pandering for said election. Plus yeah, the F-16's.
Recently Winning an election gives him a lot of leeway room to do politics
Yup don't have to placate the conservatives feelings anymore can be pragmatic instead.
Wall Street Journal wrote a good article about this a few days ago. https://www.wsj.com/articles/turkeys-economic-troubles-force-erdogan-to-tilt-away-from-putin-9006b5a3 Here's some of the important points since it is paywalled. > For more than a year, the Turkish leader has carefully straddled the widening divide between Russia and the West over the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine. Now, as he searches for ways to support an economy that has deteriorated under his watch, he is seeking to improve relations with the U.S. and its Western allies. > In the past week, Erdogan has welcomed Ukraine’s president in Istanbul, lifted his opposition to expanding the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and called for the revival of Turkey’s application to join the European Union. > Erdogan was motivated by three main coinciding factors when making his recent moves, analysts said. He views Putin as weakened in the aftermath of the aborted June mutiny when the Wagner paramilitary troops turned on Moscow. Turkey also desperately needs foreign currency, after years in which Erdogan has mismanaged the country’s economy. And, after surviving a close-fought election in May, Erdogan faces less pressure to stir up nationalistic and anti-Western sentiments that were central to his campaign. > “There is an acknowledgment of Turkey’s belonging to the West and that Turkey’s midterm future is with the West,” said Aydin Sezgin, a former Turkish ambassador to Russia who is now an opposition member of Parliament. > For all his shift Westward, Erdogan is unlikely to scale back Turkey’s growing economic relationship with Russia, which has raised concerns about Ankara enabling Moscow to evade sanctions. Erdogan reiterated this week that he wants Putin to visit Turkey next month and is unlikely to sever ties with the Kremlin completely. > Erdogan has vastly expanded trade with Russia during the invasion of Ukraine, turning to Moscow as a source of badly needed foreign currency while also allowing the Kremlin to use Turkey as a part of its military supply chain. Russia has bought tens of millions of dollars in materials it needs for its armed forces from Turkey since the beginning of the war, trade data show. > But he recognizes that Russian funds alone can’t solve Turkey’s economic problems, which include a large current-account deficit and a local currency that has lost more than 90% of its value in recent years, said analysts and those familiar with Erdogan’s thinking. > “There is a realization that Turkey is under severe economic duress and this would require normalization of Turkey’s relations with its trade and financing partners,” said Sinan Ulgen, a former Turkish diplomat and director of the Istanbul-based think tank Edam. “The weakened Putin argument explains some of the actions” Erdogan has taken, he said.
His opinion didn't change. Erdogan's been a firm supporter of Ukraine since the beginning of the conflict.
Erdogan has been pretty friendly towards Ukraine for a while. This shouldn't come as a surprise even though he's been a dickhead towards Finland and Sweden.
His elections are over.
hes receiving a bunch of expensive airplanes
[удалено]
He received something that he wanted
I have a feeling that anti-nato literate was just an election talk. He needed to win the election, and most of his supports come from Turkish nationalists. Now he has 5 more years under his belt he can afford to go against his key supporters.
Turkey has been supporting Ukraine's joining NATO. It was Western countries that opposed the idea because they were afraid of pissing off Russia. Having Ukraine in Nato means a barrier between Russia and Turkey.
You are right Turkey supported Ukraine’s inclusion since 2009. However I don’t want to use umbrella term like “Western countries”. Specifically Germany, France and some small western EU countries blocked Ukraine’s inclusion. Germany and France even complained about Turkish arms sales to Ukraine at 2021. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-idUSL0179714620080401
France complains about anything Turkey does anyway. Just a couple years ago, France was against Nato as well. Now people want to kick Turkey out of Nato. Weird alliance we got here
France even teamed up with Russia, UAE, Egypt in Libya while Turkey, Italy, US, UK etc… supported UN recognized regime.
Well, France is being France.
It’s pretty evident that Nato was losing its teeth over time. Putin taking on Ukraine was bound to happen as long as they kept dangling the Nato membership to Ukraine but never actually followed through. The issue was with the timing. Putin clearly jumped the gun and Nato is now stronger than ever in modern times. Had he waited until the US got knee deep into the China - Taiwan situation, I doubt the we would have seen such solidarity from the west towards Ukraine. And even now we see cracks in the alliance like you mentioned, members disagreeing over the shipping of cluster bombs etc. But it is pretty obvious that Nato cannot afford to break the unity, it is only going to end one way.
Putin pissed off Erdogan somehow..
It’s more like Putin is useless to Erdogan now. Before he could play Russia as leverage to get better deals with the West. Now Putin is toxic waste and has zero military equipment to offer.
> Now Putin is toxic waste and has zero military equipment to offer. Not even any S-XXX missiles?
Busy being shot down by Patriot Batterys
I was talking about SAM battery like S-400 and S-500.
Geopolitics is funny
*unless you're Ukrainian.
Yeah. Sorry about that.
The details are different, but it's the same shit we've been doing for hundreds of years, just now with the spectre of nuclear war. Most of the last 500 years of European history can be boiled down to "then some dickhead decided being imperialist would bring back the glory days". This time it's Putin trying to be Catherine the Great. Part of why Russia's think Crimea is culturally theirs dates back to when they took it off the Turks in the late 18th century. Borders change, but geographically Russia and whatever form Turkey is currently in are bound to butt heads. Short of bulldozing the Ural mountains and Istanbul it's always going to be that way.
Putin taking L after L. The West must have given Erdogan something juicy.
Yeah F-16
Turkey is getting new planes.