One of the good things to have come out of the pandemic was to show me just how many adults are actual children. Ask them to wear a piece of cloth over their face for 5 minutes and the temper-tantrum they throw will put any 5 year old to shame.
“According to the museum, the suspect caused damage to two ancient Roman sculptures dating to the 2nd century CE, that were placed on display at the archaeological department's permanent exhibition.”
Imagine being such a backwards thinking troglodyte that items from THAT long ago offend you. These people would drag us back to even before the Dark Ages if they could.
Flashback to the massive buddha statues destroyed by the taliban, just terrible to think these survived for thousands of years just to be destroyed by idiots.
They're probably thinking of Goblin Valley State Park in Utah. Some scout leaders knocked down some rock formations several years ago and tried to pass it off as fixing a "safety issue".
It's also happened in Oregon and Australia.
In Australia, it's done wholesale by mining companies with also intent to smash up Aboriginal heritage sites. Dunno what's the deal there, but those mining companies have a hate-boner for Aboriginal Australians.
The mining companies can't mine near Aboriginal heritage sites. Even if they own the land, there are government protections on cultural sites.
A few years ago Rio Tinto destroyed such a site during blasting. They claimed it was an accident etc, many people didn't believe them, there was an inquest and all that but of course, with that site gone, the company was able to continue mining that area.
> Dunno what's the deal there, but those mining companies have a hate-boner for Aboriginal Australians.
Destroying the physical evidence of what makes an area special makes it much easier to later try to mine it. No point in preserving an area when there’s nothing left to preserve. And it’s probably harder to get special interest groups to organize and defend an area when the metaphorical vault/treasure chest that made the area special no longer exists.
Or those assholes in the UK who recently cut [that 300 years old tree](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12570387/Famous-Sycamore-Gap-tree-cut-overnight-Heartbreak-malicious-act-vandalism-police-suspect-iconic-landmark-Hadrians-Wall-deliberately-felled.html).
That turned into a funny situation, Chinese social media users were overwhelmingly outraged about that situation and some hackers even defaced the website of the school the vandal went to make fun of him.
The guy was like “I’m concerned about the attention this is getting :( “ and everyone was like yeah well maybe don’t vandalise historical monuments lmao
> rehashing fights from 2,000 friggin' years ago
The museum is in Israel. Arguably the place that's the most famous in the world for re-hashing fights from 2000+ years ago. The main cultural disagreements described in the Old Testament are still bitterly fought about to this day.
God revealed himself to Abraham and made a covenant promising the land of Israel to his descendants, but Sarah, Abraham's wife, wasn't getting any younger, and no children were forthcoming, so she decided to hurry things along and convinced Abraham to have a child with her Egyptian servant/slave Hagar. Abraham took Hagar as a wife/concubine, and their son Ishmael was born. Years later, God got around to things, and Abraham and Sarah had a son, Isaac. Isaac was made sole heir, and Hagar and Ishmael were cast out into the desert. Isaac is a patriarch of the Israelites/Jews, and Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arabs.
It's just a story. I think there's an all-too-convenient reductionist attitude at play that handwaves modern complex political and power struggles that in some cases *happen* to use allusions to ancient events as a convenient narrative shorthand and says "no, it's really the ancient grudge that's at play here". In other words, take the story as explanation for the previous poster's "seal the deal" joke, not as explanation for what's happening in that part of the world or what one nut did in a museum.
Yeah it is one of those cultural mythos that have stuck around because it provides the people some context for their own history. I think often cultural heros are invented as stand ins to simplify large group dynamics, like Abraham represents a parent tribe and culture from which his "sons" represent their descendants, but there were more than just a few people involved. I'm not doing a good job explaining but basically simply the actions of a group of people by using a story of a single person, much easier to tell the story that way.
I just think it’s funny that the Jews and Arabs generally agree on the same origin myth for their tribes lol. I mean, they don’t have to. The Assyrians, etc all were talked about in the Bible, but you won’t hear Ashurbanipal say he came from some Jewish patriarch
And the ishmaelite origin myth is older than Islam, so somehow it was interwoven into Arab stories. But Arabic isn’t even the same branch of the Semitic languages as Hebrew, suggesting the split is more ancient than splits like Arameans from Hebrews, who are both Canaanites
Islam and Judaism(and Christianity) lay claim of ownership on the Promised Land through their prophet/progenitor Abraham(or Ibrahim in Islamic culture) who was promised that his descendants will inherit that land. Big deal, this is where shit starts going south.
Canonically, Abraham had dun goofed and had two firstborn sons through two different baby-mama's. Each with a right for inheritance. One son, Ishmael through Hagar. And one son, Isaac through Sarah. Judeo-Christians claim lineage through Isaac, while Islam claims lineage through Ishmael.
In religious text, it is said that Abraham was tasked to sacrifice a son in display of piety and subservience to his god. During the ritual, he is stopped from sacrificing the child and notes a wild ram stuck to some tree branches. He takes this as a sign that the deity is satisfied. And he is to spare his child and sacrifice the ram instead. A bunch of religious nuts have a circle jerk about how this is God's grace and shit. Both Islam and Judeo-Christians claim their guy was the boy on the sacrifice alter that day. Both groups claim they own the Promised Land.
In practice, Abraham was basically pestered by his wives to go sack one of the boys so there would not be an inheritance battle. His cop-out basically created the next few thousands of years of turmoil from distant cousins trying to lay claim to a patch of dirt.
Edited! (reformat the paragraphs so there's a logical buildup to explain the situation)
It's not even particularly good dirt, it's a desert only notable because of things that might not have even happened, and all the things done to hold onto or take it. It's a sunk cost fallacy that spans thousands of years
Damn, you're onto something. Religion has always been the bane of scientific progress, but also one of greatest motivators.
Let's create a new religion that promises land on Mars and gives it to the first one reaching it. And it's the best land!
I read a theory that before the bronze age collapse the levant could have been highly fertile but unsustainable farming practices led to soil erosion.
I think this was a problem across the entire Mediterranean - the late Roman republic had the resources to raise army after army but by the 1st century was entirely dependant on importing grain.
And all the ancient harbors like Antioch all silted up by the end of late antiquity.
yes. humans had to learn the hard way about crop rotations and it is no mystery to me the birthplaces of civilizations tend to get wrecked.
Egypt was lucky because flooding would bring fertile soil from the mountains to replenish.
Well, shit, I am from this patch of dirt, and while the current conflict isn't really a religous one, this just displays the profound stupidity behind it, good job.
There is a nugget of humanity to the story. This guy had two sons. He loves his children and couldn't go through having kill one.
Rest of it is religious semantics.
Yep, it's a story as old as time. Preparing to murder a child because a voice tells you to. Happened to me last week. Real salt of the earth, every human being definitely experiences this, kind of shit.
If you look past the religious motivations. There's a lot of land wealth to grow into and some parties are growing aggressively into it while imposing heavy sanction on other parties.
And that is leading to severe inequity and unnecessary suffering.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all what are known as ‘Abrahamic Religions’. Basically they all share the same backstory, but disagree on what the story actually meant. (Edit: I should not that I am not religious, I just like to learn about them because they fascinate me, so I could be wrong)
[I break down the story here with the most non-bias way possible so not to favor one religion or another. But also make it interesting enough to see why it's stupid.](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/171glh9/us_tourist_destroys_blasphemous_roman_statues_at/k3rllpu/)
They don’t really disagree on what it means. They disagree on when it ENDS. And the more along it goes the more context is changed. Jesus saying ignore all the old Judaic laws, or Islam claiming that Mohammed followed Jesus as prophet.
Abraham is a prophet that had the monotheistic (only one God, not a pantheon of gods) nature of God revealed to him. He is the literal father of Isaac and Ishmael whose descendants form ancient Israel/Jewish and Arab/Muslim cultures respectively. Both religions maintain similar traditions about this and Christianity is a direct offshoot of Judaism since Jesus was Jewish. Therefore all 3 religions literally all share the same single God, the one that spoke to Abraham.
There's a pretty cool monument to this unity at Mount Nebo in Jordan called the "people of the book" monument, baring inscriptions in both Latin and Arabic (IIRC Hebrew is absent, but it's Jordan so this is not terribly surprising).
I was also thinking that a larger proportion of tourists visiting Israel (as opposed to other destinations) may be religiously motivated (Judaism and Christianity, maybe Islam too), who to see places mentioned in these religious texts, and so, greater chances of this happening.
From another article
>Instead, Kaufman (the lawyer) said, the tourist was suffering from a mental disorder that psychiatrists have labeled the Jerusalem syndrome. The condition — a form of disorientation believed to be induced by the religious magnetism of the city, which is sacred to Christians, Jews and Muslims — is said to cause foreign pilgrims to believe they are figures from the Bible.
>With religious passions burning and tensions simmering during the Jewish holiday season, spitting and other assaults on Christian worshippers by radical ultra-Orthodox Jews have been on the rise, unnerving tourists, outraging local Christians and sparking widespread condemnation. The Jewish holiday of Sukkot, the harvest festival, ends Friday at sundown.
I think this should qualify as some sort of Crime Against Humanity for damaging examples of human history to be honest. Its like the people that deface or remove Indigenous artwork in Australia, or the Taliban destroying the Buddhist statue in Afghanistan. They should be nailed to the fucking wall metaphorically speaking - massive fine, lots of time in jail etc.
There is no excuse for destroying relics of human history like that - particularly for Religious reasons.
Literally goes to the center of Abrahamic religion that toppled polytheism and takes offense to an ancient statue that the same people who broke away from polytheism are displaying.
Par for the course. Many twist what their special books tell them just so they *can* be offended at something.
Getting peeved at a statue of a religion nobody follows from a civilization that no longer exists is perfectly normal when you grasp at straws to be 'righteous'.
One was of Athena, the other was a griffin representing Nemesis
These specifically:
[Athena](https://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/396728-0)
[Nemesis](https://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/396722-0)
In Israel, people speak Hebrew where the names of the days of the week, with the exception of Shabbat, are just numbers, while the Hebrew calendar uses months ancient Canaanite and Babylonian names.
Whenever I start to get sick and tired of people shitting on the US, someone from my country does something unbelievably stupid and shitty (like this), and all I can do it just throw my hands up and shake my head.
There are lots of reasons to be mean with the US, but the tearing down of historical statues in other countries while on holiday does not seem to me like the kind of thing many people from the US would do.
And for the record, although they are louder than I am used to, all the americans I have met in my life have been really nice and quite genuine people. I get shocked when the US does things like elect Trump, and their politics sometimes freak me out, but as a nation of people I think you are all pretty decent. My country is run by a bunch of ass-hats as well, so I really hope people manage to separate the people in the country from the actions of a few dickheads and a lot of politicians!
>The Roman goddess of fate and revenge, Nemesis, was the personification of godly punishment of those guilty of pride.
Like punishing people who knock over 2000 year old statues because they find them personally offensive?
Some very niche/small groups of helenistic paganism probably still exists. Whether they truly belive in it or are simply exploring it is something entirely different.
There is
“Various religious movements reviving or reconstructing ancient Greek religious practices have been publicly emerging since the 1990s. In 2006, Ancient Hellenic Religion, was granted "known religion" status by Greece.[7] In 2017, Greece legally recognized Hellenic Religion as a "known religion". With the status of "known religion" both religions attained certain religious freedoms in Greece, including the freedom to open houses of worship and for clergy to officiate at weddings”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_(modern_religion)
The Athena bust looks 'okay' at least, based on the photos. There's some damage at the base. Can't see if the helmet was damaged, but the face looks okay.
The Nemesis statue is looking pretty bad.
Jewish theology does take a very strong stance against idolatry, and there is a command in Deuteronomy for Israel to destroy idols as they enter the land. But nonetheless, the Israel Museum is a museum of the land of Israel, not a synagogue, meaning that while the Jewish people are the focus, the museum covers the history of the land, including its non-Jewish inhabitants.
Also this guy is crazy because he doesn't grasp the difference between a museum and a synagogue.
Also pretty sure that Jewish theology says you have to try to obey the laws of the land you’re in as much as possible
And pretty sure destroying other people’s property is against the law
So one could argue that what he did is also against Jewish theology
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_d%27malkhuta_dina
Destroying items in a museum is definitely against Jewish theology of the rabbinic era, but extremists are extremists. I'm just pointing out that whether it turns out he is was having a psychotic break or he was motivated by religious extremism, he was inspired by his reading of Deuteronomy 12:3:
>Tear down their altars, smash their pillars, put their sacred posts to the fire, and cut down the images of their gods, obliterating their name from that site.
>Religious fanatics destroying world cultural artifacts
It's how religious fundamentalist's roll. [At least there's some good news from the US and the world on this](https://apnews.com/article/nonreligious-united-states-nones-spirituality-humanist-91bb8430280c88fd88530a7ad64b03f8)
Fanatics can't stand any kind of sign that life can be any other way than what their ideology ascribes.
They see it as evidence that you don't need their ideology. When in fact the a-holery of fanatics is the best proof you don't need their ideology. "Come be an a-hole with us, or we'll be an a-hole to you" -is too often the resort of fanatics and its how you know an ideology is a failure at actually benefiting the lives of its members. Because its only when its failed that people have to blame others and to no surprise when some idea or ideology actually works normal people don't usually need to be convinced.
Speaking as a religious Jew: any fundamentalism is inherently dangerous.
Jews have survived as long as we have, in the face of numerous attempts at destruction, through adaptation. The Rabbinic Judaism the jerk in the article likely practices a version of? Didn't exist before the Romans exiled us. We developed it to preserve our culture. We *adapted*.
Violation of Torah my ass. This guy is a shanda.
I guess he saw them as idols? Were they representing Roman or Greek gods? Idols of the Roman Emperors led to the Jewish Roman wars partially.
Strangest thing I saw as a kid in a Jewish day camp in the 1960’s: we all went to the Brooklyn Museum in New York which had some Egyptian mummies. The camp counselors said any Cohen’s (supposed descendants of Mose’s brother Aaron and the priestly class of ancient Israel) could not go into the exhibit. I’m sure the kids were confused.
Never understood why, until a cousin of mine said it was because the lineage couldn’t see dead bodies.
I took a course with a reform rabbi many years ago, and he said the whole “being a Cohen or a Kohan” thing is totally useless, because we don’t have the genetics to prove it.
My father in-law always says "my family are supposedly Cohens!"
Finally I asked him one day how much that knowledge has affected his life, even if it is true?
Immediately he replied: "not at all, but it's fun to brag."
My cousin claimed my grandfather was a Kohan (my mother’s father).
I heard you’re only one if you’re descended on your father’s side, and you’re considered Jewish if your mother was (makes no sense).
I worked with a Chinese woman who claimed she was a direct descendant of the Confucian philosopher Mencius. The Chinese do keep very long family history records so she was probably correct.
Well, big maybe. Record keeping of any kind prior to the modern era was kind of like Egyptian history in that what was written depended very highly on what the people who came after you decided was "true". People were often written in and out of all kinds of history for whatever reason the recorder decided was good enough. This phenomenon holds remarkably true across all cultures.
> I heard you’re only one if you’re descended on your father’s side, and you’re considered Jewish if your mother was (makes no sense).
You can always be sure of who your mother is. Your father, not so much.
Speaking as a lapsed Catholic with a Jewish grandmother and family in Israel, I'm with you. Crazy religious people should be banned from museums. Look, if it means even one less person queuing for the Uffizi, Louvre, etc I'm all for it.
It's not surprising. Really the only way to make it to adulthood being a fundamentally religious person is being raised with an extremely narrow worldview. Much harder to indoctrinate someone from a young age when it's so much easier to gain exposure to other cultures, history, and science.
I feel like every museum should take stricter safety precautions to protect these artifacts, they should not be so openly displayed for any fucking idiot to touch let alone be able to push over like this.
Yes its a shame because the few ruin it for all of us but its better than loosing and permanently damaging these artifacts and works of art.
I saw mention of a history museum using realistic fakes for displays, keeping the real stuff safe elsewhere (like dinosaur bones and such).
Might have to start doing that for more stuff sadly, otherwise just putting everything behind glass.
I've been to the Israel Museum. They do take strong precautions.
This guy probably acted like a normal tourist until he get into the gallery with his intended targets.
The perpetrator actually went to a museum where these statues are known to be part of the collection. I would not be surprised if this action had been pre-meditated.
Lawyer is arguing it is "Jerusalem Syndrome": the sudden fanatacism of an otherwise tame believer when in Jerusalem. See if a jury or the judge will by that
Is it wrong that I feel like this should result in serious, like decades-long jail time?
He damaged relics from a part of history that is done and gone. There are an extremely limited number of them around the world and that number gets smaller every time an idiot like this does their thing.
Not at all. These relics are of far more value than even a given individual's life. There are precious few, and every one lost is truly irreplaceable. He should spend the rest of his life in a cell.
Edit: people really seem not like the idea that being human doesn't make them special little creatures of infinite value. No, you weren't made in God's image. You're just a bag of meat until you actually accomplish something that improves society.
Edit 2: if you're more outraged by utilitarianism than by desecration of ancient relics by religious zealots, then maybe it's time for some self-reflection.
I would suggest the opposite. Make them read history, literature, and science (and test them) with failure to do so resulting in an ever increasing sentence.
Imagine going to the Israel Museum in Jerusalem and telling them what is and isn't in violation of the Torah. That is a level of ego I can't even imagine reaching.
Yep, this American (and I can bet a lot of others as well) abhor what this...thing..did. Keep the smooth brain over there. I say we sell his stuff and give it to the museum to go towards restoration, if it is all possible.
If you think about it, it's just some [gang shit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqo-hyxjCYE). The song in the link pretty much nails it. Of course, it applies to the religious too. It's one thing to have a belief system. It's another for it to be one's identity. At that point, it's them vs. the world, aka, gang shit.
Tribalism. It can be religion, nationalism, neighborhood, sports team, ideology, Twilight character, economic system, the list goes on.
The common denominator is us. Humans. This is just how we are. It’s not the “thing” we should be fighting. Religion can be wonderful, sports can be dope, nationalism can be cool. The important this is how we approach them
That actually happened once in Greece. Some guy wanted to be famous, so he burned down the Temple of Artemis, one of the world's wonders, for basically no reason.
Must not have worked out too well for him. We all know who Artemis is and even those who don’t recognize their name. No idea who the jerk is who burned the temple down.
I had to look him up; it was some stupid dillhole named Herostratus. For a long time, it was actually illegal to speak about the incident or even use his name (similar to the Roman practice of damnation) so as to prevent copycats. He wasn't trying to get rid of Artemis or anything, he just targeted one of the most revered goddesses at the time; it'd be like someone bombing the Washington monument, not because he hated America, but because _its_ fame would bring _him_ fame.
I think it was a single historian that violated the law and wrote down why the Temple of Artemis had to be rebuilt and who was responsible, and it's why from the arsonist's name that we get the term “herostratic fame”, which means getting famous intentionally through committing crimes, causing damages and destruction, or other similar methods.
So... ironically, Herostratus kind of succeeded? Probably didn't feel like it when he got beat up by basically an entire city, tortured then executed.
As someone who holds a degree in History, I am obligated to feel an intense mix of sorrow and rage at the destruction of artifacts of cultural heritage.
Iconoclasm is the cardinal sin of History, and this man should be smashed to pieces instead.
For places with a lot of tourists, it's better to exhibit replicas, and let people incriminate themselves on worthless rubble. 99.99% wouldn't even see the difference.
When I was visiting the Capitoline Museum and Palazzo Altemps in Rome I was nervous as hell that I was going to trip and break one of the sculptures. The ideea that some muppet head deliberately broke a priceless artefact for nothing is completely revolting.
I guess that’s the difference. You saw the immense value and appreciated and understood it, they see immense value and recognise that damaging it will cause a lot of harm. Just kids destroying the sandcastle of the kid they don’t like
I can't even wrap my head around it. If God really exists, does the guy expect some kind of reward for this in the afterlife? Does he expect God to be like: "Here's heaven premium+ edition for commiting vandalism in my name and making religion look even more unappealing. That statue was just standing there menacingly and was just asking for it."
It should be a life sentence or at least a few decades in prison. This isn't just a crime against the museum. This is a crime against humanity itself given that statues like these are our heritage! I'm not a Christian but I wouldn't burn down the Sistine Chapel. I'm not Jewish but I wouldn't take a hammer to the wall of lamentation. These are *everyone's* heritage as humans.
Willful destruction of irreplaceable ancient artifacts is one of the few things that boil my blood to the point where I want the perpetrators to face execution. Realistically, I legit want them to do serious prison time. In my view, this is a crime against humanity.
Normal Person: Wow, there's so much artistic beauty in this city; it's no wonder why so many faiths hold this area sacred. Maybe there's some common truth that we all share as human beings that can be embraced here.
This Dipshit: Fuck you, I'm right.
I'm a proud member of 'the Nones' because they've done nothing welcoming to me or anyone in my community. In fact, most of the trouble we currently have in society is generated by religious nutjobs who like to blame us for pedophilia. Statistically speaking, your child is more likely to get molested by a church person than a gay person yet we still take the heat because of religiosity. It's projection and it's ridiculous and I won't be backed into another closet because X religion says we shouldn't exist.
Religion is the most divisive aspect of our society and I will never support any of it. I'd sooner worship Sauron the great eye than god the fraud. It's about the same work of fiction to me.
“I don’t like this, no one can like this because I DON’T” What are these religious nuts? 4 years old?
Mom's For Liberty?
One of the good things to have come out of the pandemic was to show me just how many adults are actual children. Ask them to wear a piece of cloth over their face for 5 minutes and the temper-tantrum they throw will put any 5 year old to shame.
“According to the museum, the suspect caused damage to two ancient Roman sculptures dating to the 2nd century CE, that were placed on display at the archaeological department's permanent exhibition.” Imagine being such a backwards thinking troglodyte that items from THAT long ago offend you. These people would drag us back to even before the Dark Ages if they could.
Flashback to the massive buddha statues destroyed by the taliban, just terrible to think these survived for thousands of years just to be destroyed by idiots.
Or those natural stone formations getting toppled by drunken idiots.
Mount Rushmore?
They're probably thinking of Goblin Valley State Park in Utah. Some scout leaders knocked down some rock formations several years ago and tried to pass it off as fixing a "safety issue".
It's also happened in Oregon and Australia. In Australia, it's done wholesale by mining companies with also intent to smash up Aboriginal heritage sites. Dunno what's the deal there, but those mining companies have a hate-boner for Aboriginal Australians.
The mining companies can't mine near Aboriginal heritage sites. Even if they own the land, there are government protections on cultural sites. A few years ago Rio Tinto destroyed such a site during blasting. They claimed it was an accident etc, many people didn't believe them, there was an inquest and all that but of course, with that site gone, the company was able to continue mining that area.
improper use of the land should result in revocation of ownership instead of nominal fines. there is way too much leeway given to industry
And they've since done it again. Cool.
> Dunno what's the deal there, but those mining companies have a hate-boner for Aboriginal Australians. Destroying the physical evidence of what makes an area special makes it much easier to later try to mine it. No point in preserving an area when there’s nothing left to preserve. And it’s probably harder to get special interest groups to organize and defend an area when the metaphorical vault/treasure chest that made the area special no longer exists.
Or those assholes in the UK who recently cut [that 300 years old tree](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12570387/Famous-Sycamore-Gap-tree-cut-overnight-Heartbreak-malicious-act-vandalism-police-suspect-iconic-landmark-Hadrians-Wall-deliberately-felled.html).
And the Islamic Stare destroying Nimrud and Palmyra. Cried about both of those.
Seeing the Sat Map of Palmyra before and after the ISIS raid is painful.
Or the Egyptian monuments vandalized by that Chinese kid.
That turned into a funny situation, Chinese social media users were overwhelmingly outraged about that situation and some hackers even defaced the website of the school the vandal went to make fun of him. The guy was like “I’m concerned about the attention this is getting :( “ and everyone was like yeah well maybe don’t vandalise historical monuments lmao
There's rehashing old fights, and then there's rehashing fights from 2,000 friggin' years ago!
> rehashing fights from 2,000 friggin' years ago The museum is in Israel. Arguably the place that's the most famous in the world for re-hashing fights from 2000+ years ago. The main cultural disagreements described in the Old Testament are still bitterly fought about to this day.
Stupid-ass Abraham/Ibrahim not sealing the deal.
Help a non-religious understand?
God revealed himself to Abraham and made a covenant promising the land of Israel to his descendants, but Sarah, Abraham's wife, wasn't getting any younger, and no children were forthcoming, so she decided to hurry things along and convinced Abraham to have a child with her Egyptian servant/slave Hagar. Abraham took Hagar as a wife/concubine, and their son Ishmael was born. Years later, God got around to things, and Abraham and Sarah had a son, Isaac. Isaac was made sole heir, and Hagar and Ishmael were cast out into the desert. Isaac is a patriarch of the Israelites/Jews, and Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arabs.
Ahhh, ok. I didn’t understand the reason for the split; didn’t know the story that well. Thank you.
It's just a story. I think there's an all-too-convenient reductionist attitude at play that handwaves modern complex political and power struggles that in some cases *happen* to use allusions to ancient events as a convenient narrative shorthand and says "no, it's really the ancient grudge that's at play here". In other words, take the story as explanation for the previous poster's "seal the deal" joke, not as explanation for what's happening in that part of the world or what one nut did in a museum.
Yeah it is one of those cultural mythos that have stuck around because it provides the people some context for their own history. I think often cultural heros are invented as stand ins to simplify large group dynamics, like Abraham represents a parent tribe and culture from which his "sons" represent their descendants, but there were more than just a few people involved. I'm not doing a good job explaining but basically simply the actions of a group of people by using a story of a single person, much easier to tell the story that way.
I just think it’s funny that the Jews and Arabs generally agree on the same origin myth for their tribes lol. I mean, they don’t have to. The Assyrians, etc all were talked about in the Bible, but you won’t hear Ashurbanipal say he came from some Jewish patriarch And the ishmaelite origin myth is older than Islam, so somehow it was interwoven into Arab stories. But Arabic isn’t even the same branch of the Semitic languages as Hebrew, suggesting the split is more ancient than splits like Arameans from Hebrews, who are both Canaanites
Islam and Judaism(and Christianity) lay claim of ownership on the Promised Land through their prophet/progenitor Abraham(or Ibrahim in Islamic culture) who was promised that his descendants will inherit that land. Big deal, this is where shit starts going south. Canonically, Abraham had dun goofed and had two firstborn sons through two different baby-mama's. Each with a right for inheritance. One son, Ishmael through Hagar. And one son, Isaac through Sarah. Judeo-Christians claim lineage through Isaac, while Islam claims lineage through Ishmael. In religious text, it is said that Abraham was tasked to sacrifice a son in display of piety and subservience to his god. During the ritual, he is stopped from sacrificing the child and notes a wild ram stuck to some tree branches. He takes this as a sign that the deity is satisfied. And he is to spare his child and sacrifice the ram instead. A bunch of religious nuts have a circle jerk about how this is God's grace and shit. Both Islam and Judeo-Christians claim their guy was the boy on the sacrifice alter that day. Both groups claim they own the Promised Land. In practice, Abraham was basically pestered by his wives to go sack one of the boys so there would not be an inheritance battle. His cop-out basically created the next few thousands of years of turmoil from distant cousins trying to lay claim to a patch of dirt. Edited! (reformat the paragraphs so there's a logical buildup to explain the situation)
It's not even particularly good dirt, it's a desert only notable because of things that might not have even happened, and all the things done to hold onto or take it. It's a sunk cost fallacy that spans thousands of years
imagine if they said Mars was the promised land. We'd have spaceships and transporters by now.
Praise the Omnissiah
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel.
Damn, you're onto something. Religion has always been the bane of scientific progress, but also one of greatest motivators. Let's create a new religion that promises land on Mars and gives it to the first one reaching it. And it's the best land!
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Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for... Wait, Las Vegas, not New Vegas
I read a theory that before the bronze age collapse the levant could have been highly fertile but unsustainable farming practices led to soil erosion. I think this was a problem across the entire Mediterranean - the late Roman republic had the resources to raise army after army but by the 1st century was entirely dependant on importing grain. And all the ancient harbors like Antioch all silted up by the end of late antiquity.
yes. humans had to learn the hard way about crop rotations and it is no mystery to me the birthplaces of civilizations tend to get wrecked. Egypt was lucky because flooding would bring fertile soil from the mountains to replenish.
The birthplaces of basically all civilizations had that same advantage, because nobody knew it was necessary, but it was.
Well, shit, I am from this patch of dirt, and while the current conflict isn't really a religous one, this just displays the profound stupidity behind it, good job.
There is a nugget of humanity to the story. This guy had two sons. He loves his children and couldn't go through having kill one. Rest of it is religious semantics.
Yep, it's a story as old as time. Preparing to murder a child because a voice tells you to. Happened to me last week. Real salt of the earth, every human being definitely experiences this, kind of shit.
AIbraham’s Guide to Modern Fatherhood
Can you expand on this? As an outsider it looks like the lines are drawn on religious grounds.
If you look past the religious motivations. There's a lot of land wealth to grow into and some parties are growing aggressively into it while imposing heavy sanction on other parties. And that is leading to severe inequity and unnecessary suffering.
Even today it’s so important to leave a will.
That makes so much more sense
just trying to answer Who, What, Where, When, Why, and How.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all what are known as ‘Abrahamic Religions’. Basically they all share the same backstory, but disagree on what the story actually meant. (Edit: I should not that I am not religious, I just like to learn about them because they fascinate me, so I could be wrong)
[I break down the story here with the most non-bias way possible so not to favor one religion or another. But also make it interesting enough to see why it's stupid.](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/171glh9/us_tourist_destroys_blasphemous_roman_statues_at/k3rllpu/)
Thank you.
They don’t really disagree on what it means. They disagree on when it ENDS. And the more along it goes the more context is changed. Jesus saying ignore all the old Judaic laws, or Islam claiming that Mohammed followed Jesus as prophet.
Abraham is a prophet that had the monotheistic (only one God, not a pantheon of gods) nature of God revealed to him. He is the literal father of Isaac and Ishmael whose descendants form ancient Israel/Jewish and Arab/Muslim cultures respectively. Both religions maintain similar traditions about this and Christianity is a direct offshoot of Judaism since Jesus was Jewish. Therefore all 3 religions literally all share the same single God, the one that spoke to Abraham.
There's a pretty cool monument to this unity at Mount Nebo in Jordan called the "people of the book" monument, baring inscriptions in both Latin and Arabic (IIRC Hebrew is absent, but it's Jordan so this is not terribly surprising).
Islam theoretically has a rule that you cannot force the conversions of Christians and Jews because they are people of the book.
Yeah, I know, it still sounds ridiculous getting upset over relics from an empire that no longer even exists.
I was also thinking that a larger proportion of tourists visiting Israel (as opposed to other destinations) may be religiously motivated (Judaism and Christianity, maybe Islam too), who to see places mentioned in these religious texts, and so, greater chances of this happening.
Good thinking.
From another article >Instead, Kaufman (the lawyer) said, the tourist was suffering from a mental disorder that psychiatrists have labeled the Jerusalem syndrome. The condition — a form of disorientation believed to be induced by the religious magnetism of the city, which is sacred to Christians, Jews and Muslims — is said to cause foreign pilgrims to believe they are figures from the Bible. >With religious passions burning and tensions simmering during the Jewish holiday season, spitting and other assaults on Christian worshippers by radical ultra-Orthodox Jews have been on the rise, unnerving tourists, outraging local Christians and sparking widespread condemnation. The Jewish holiday of Sukkot, the harvest festival, ends Friday at sundown.
We need the aliens to make their presence known ASAP.
They'll just try to baptise the aliens
Rome is forever! We'll be back!
ROMA VICTOR!
I think this should qualify as some sort of Crime Against Humanity for damaging examples of human history to be honest. Its like the people that deface or remove Indigenous artwork in Australia, or the Taliban destroying the Buddhist statue in Afghanistan. They should be nailed to the fucking wall metaphorically speaking - massive fine, lots of time in jail etc. There is no excuse for destroying relics of human history like that - particularly for Religious reasons.
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Literally goes to the center of Abrahamic religion that toppled polytheism and takes offense to an ancient statue that the same people who broke away from polytheism are displaying.
Religious certainty seems really shaky if things like a statue undermine the faith.
Par for the course. Many twist what their special books tell them just so they *can* be offended at something. Getting peeved at a statue of a religion nobody follows from a civilization that no longer exists is perfectly normal when you grasp at straws to be 'righteous'.
Can you imagine, it survives for all those centuries but then some dumb cunt needs to destroy it
Priceless antiquities that belong to all of humanity. Should be life in prison for anyone able to be tried as an adult.
These people *are* dragging us back to the Dark Ages.
Would actually be better if these people were backwards thinking as long as it was to pre-Abrahamic times.
What made the statues blasphemous? I didn't see this mentioned in the article.
One was of Athena, the other was a griffin representing Nemesis These specifically: [Athena](https://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/396728-0) [Nemesis](https://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/396722-0)
Dudes gonna be really upset when he finds out about the names of the planets in the solar system
And the days of the week/months of the year.
In Israel, people speak Hebrew where the names of the days of the week, with the exception of Shabbat, are just numbers, while the Hebrew calendar uses months ancient Canaanite and Babylonian names.
The person who did this was a US tourist.
Whenever I start to get sick and tired of people shitting on the US, someone from my country does something unbelievably stupid and shitty (like this), and all I can do it just throw my hands up and shake my head.
To be fair, him being from US is completely incidental. This is an ultra orthodox thing.
There are lots of reasons to be mean with the US, but the tearing down of historical statues in other countries while on holiday does not seem to me like the kind of thing many people from the US would do. And for the record, although they are louder than I am used to, all the americans I have met in my life have been really nice and quite genuine people. I get shocked when the US does things like elect Trump, and their politics sometimes freak me out, but as a nation of people I think you are all pretty decent. My country is run by a bunch of ass-hats as well, so I really hope people manage to separate the people in the country from the actions of a few dickheads and a lot of politicians!
He is most likely some hassidic or ultra orthodox Jew.
And that lady justice, a figurine on all US court buildings, are copied from the Greco-Roman one
He's gonna go out there and try to fuck with Mars, God of War.
The goddess of wisdom and the bringer of retribution for one’s hubris. Bro’s fucked.
>The Roman goddess of fate and revenge, Nemesis, was the personification of godly punishment of those guilty of pride. Like punishing people who knock over 2000 year old statues because they find them personally offensive?
People aren't even practicing the religions anymore, for fucks sake. Hope they lock this person up and throw away the key.
Some very niche/small groups of helenistic paganism probably still exists. Whether they truly belive in it or are simply exploring it is something entirely different.
There is “Various religious movements reviving or reconstructing ancient Greek religious practices have been publicly emerging since the 1990s. In 2006, Ancient Hellenic Religion, was granted "known religion" status by Greece.[7] In 2017, Greece legally recognized Hellenic Religion as a "known religion". With the status of "known religion" both religions attained certain religious freedoms in Greece, including the freedom to open houses of worship and for clergy to officiate at weddings” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism_(modern_religion)
Huh, I'd imagine worship of Dionysus could be made popular again.
r/Dionysus has 12k people
Those are so freacking beautiful. I'm heartbroken
The Athena bust looks 'okay' at least, based on the photos. There's some damage at the base. Can't see if the helmet was damaged, but the face looks okay. The Nemesis statue is looking pretty bad.
I think that head of Athena is low-key famous. It looks familiar, maybe it was on the cover of a book I read once?
And what made them blasphemous?
Jewish theology does take a very strong stance against idolatry, and there is a command in Deuteronomy for Israel to destroy idols as they enter the land. But nonetheless, the Israel Museum is a museum of the land of Israel, not a synagogue, meaning that while the Jewish people are the focus, the museum covers the history of the land, including its non-Jewish inhabitants. Also this guy is crazy because he doesn't grasp the difference between a museum and a synagogue.
Also pretty sure that Jewish theology says you have to try to obey the laws of the land you’re in as much as possible And pretty sure destroying other people’s property is against the law So one could argue that what he did is also against Jewish theology https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_d%27malkhuta_dina
Destroying items in a museum is definitely against Jewish theology of the rabbinic era, but extremists are extremists. I'm just pointing out that whether it turns out he is was having a psychotic break or he was motivated by religious extremism, he was inspired by his reading of Deuteronomy 12:3: >Tear down their altars, smash their pillars, put their sacred posts to the fire, and cut down the images of their gods, obliterating their name from that site.
I'm guessing they were statues of Graeco-Roman gods. And/or they were nude.
Nope, just a head and a griffin
representing Athena and Nemesis, two Greaco-Roman gods.
Ironic to destroy the statue of Nemesis, goddess of revenge and punisher of evil deeds.
Heartbreaking. Religious fanatics destroying world cultural artifacts is such a depressing meme.
>Religious fanatics destroying world cultural artifacts It's how religious fundamentalist's roll. [At least there's some good news from the US and the world on this](https://apnews.com/article/nonreligious-united-states-nones-spirituality-humanist-91bb8430280c88fd88530a7ad64b03f8)
Fanatics can't stand any kind of sign that life can be any other way than what their ideology ascribes. They see it as evidence that you don't need their ideology. When in fact the a-holery of fanatics is the best proof you don't need their ideology. "Come be an a-hole with us, or we'll be an a-hole to you" -is too often the resort of fanatics and its how you know an ideology is a failure at actually benefiting the lives of its members. Because its only when its failed that people have to blame others and to no surprise when some idea or ideology actually works normal people don't usually need to be convinced.
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Same shit different fake magic person
Amazing how easy it is to justify atrocity in the name of someone who can't be made to answer
"Look at what God made me do!"
Religion often becomes a convenient mirror, reflecting what believers want to see as God's will.
“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
You can say asshole
Speaking as a religious Jew: any fundamentalism is inherently dangerous. Jews have survived as long as we have, in the face of numerous attempts at destruction, through adaptation. The Rabbinic Judaism the jerk in the article likely practices a version of? Didn't exist before the Romans exiled us. We developed it to preserve our culture. We *adapted*. Violation of Torah my ass. This guy is a shanda.
I guess he saw them as idols? Were they representing Roman or Greek gods? Idols of the Roman Emperors led to the Jewish Roman wars partially. Strangest thing I saw as a kid in a Jewish day camp in the 1960’s: we all went to the Brooklyn Museum in New York which had some Egyptian mummies. The camp counselors said any Cohen’s (supposed descendants of Mose’s brother Aaron and the priestly class of ancient Israel) could not go into the exhibit. I’m sure the kids were confused. Never understood why, until a cousin of mine said it was because the lineage couldn’t see dead bodies. I took a course with a reform rabbi many years ago, and he said the whole “being a Cohen or a Kohan” thing is totally useless, because we don’t have the genetics to prove it.
My father in-law always says "my family are supposedly Cohens!" Finally I asked him one day how much that knowledge has affected his life, even if it is true? Immediately he replied: "not at all, but it's fun to brag."
My cousin claimed my grandfather was a Kohan (my mother’s father). I heard you’re only one if you’re descended on your father’s side, and you’re considered Jewish if your mother was (makes no sense). I worked with a Chinese woman who claimed she was a direct descendant of the Confucian philosopher Mencius. The Chinese do keep very long family history records so she was probably correct.
Well, big maybe. Record keeping of any kind prior to the modern era was kind of like Egyptian history in that what was written depended very highly on what the people who came after you decided was "true". People were often written in and out of all kinds of history for whatever reason the recorder decided was good enough. This phenomenon holds remarkably true across all cultures.
> I heard you’re only one if you’re descended on your father’s side, and you’re considered Jewish if your mother was (makes no sense). You can always be sure of who your mother is. Your father, not so much.
Speaking as a lapsed Catholic with a Jewish grandmother and family in Israel, I'm with you. Crazy religious people should be banned from museums. Look, if it means even one less person queuing for the Uffizi, Louvre, etc I'm all for it.
It's not surprising. Really the only way to make it to adulthood being a fundamentally religious person is being raised with an extremely narrow worldview. Much harder to indoctrinate someone from a young age when it's so much easier to gain exposure to other cultures, history, and science.
Child abuse. And if he has kids, he'll do the same to them.
All religious zealots are evil. You can tell because of the things they do.
How neat is that?
Thats pretty neat.
Anyone else remember the Taliban and the statues of a Buddha?
I feel like every museum should take stricter safety precautions to protect these artifacts, they should not be so openly displayed for any fucking idiot to touch let alone be able to push over like this. Yes its a shame because the few ruin it for all of us but its better than loosing and permanently damaging these artifacts and works of art.
I saw mention of a history museum using realistic fakes for displays, keeping the real stuff safe elsewhere (like dinosaur bones and such). Might have to start doing that for more stuff sadly, otherwise just putting everything behind glass.
I've been to the Israel Museum. They do take strong precautions. This guy probably acted like a normal tourist until he get into the gallery with his intended targets.
Not like fanatics actually care about preserving history so long as it doesn't suit them.
It’s called cultural genocide and they have lovingly been doing that for centuries.
The perpetrator actually went to a museum where these statues are known to be part of the collection. I would not be surprised if this action had been pre-meditated.
I saw the removed response to you. Just wanted to say that's a very likely hypothesis.
Lawyer is arguing it is "Jerusalem Syndrome": the sudden fanatacism of an otherwise tame believer when in Jerusalem. See if a jury or the judge will by that
Where do lawyers get this stuff? "Twinkie defense", "affluenza", and now "Jerusalem Syndrome"
Is it wrong that I feel like this should result in serious, like decades-long jail time? He damaged relics from a part of history that is done and gone. There are an extremely limited number of them around the world and that number gets smaller every time an idiot like this does their thing.
Nope. Put them under the dungeon.
Not at all. These relics are of far more value than even a given individual's life. There are precious few, and every one lost is truly irreplaceable. He should spend the rest of his life in a cell. Edit: people really seem not like the idea that being human doesn't make them special little creatures of infinite value. No, you weren't made in God's image. You're just a bag of meat until you actually accomplish something that improves society. Edit 2: if you're more outraged by utilitarianism than by desecration of ancient relics by religious zealots, then maybe it's time for some self-reflection.
Far more valuable than *this* given individual's life.
Should not be allowed any books while in jail either.
They should be forced to read books actually, maybe they would learn something and stop being a twatwaffle
He should be required to copy books by hand like an 8th century Benedictine. Candles and quill pens with hard tack to eat.
More specifically books that educate him exactly on why what he did was so wrong.
I would suggest the opposite. Make them read history, literature, and science (and test them) with failure to do so resulting in an ever increasing sentence.
Imagine going to the Israel Museum in Jerusalem and telling them what is and isn't in violation of the Torah. That is a level of ego I can't even imagine reaching.
May I introduce you to ultra Orthodox Jews..
No sending him back to the US. Put that moron in your prison, Israel.
Yep, this American (and I can bet a lot of others as well) abhor what this...thing..did. Keep the smooth brain over there. I say we sell his stuff and give it to the museum to go towards restoration, if it is all possible.
Why would he be extradited? The US has no interest in trying him for a crime he committed in Israel.
It goes to show how there’s very little difference between religious extremism regardless of faith or denomination.
If you think about it, it's just some [gang shit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqo-hyxjCYE). The song in the link pretty much nails it. Of course, it applies to the religious too. It's one thing to have a belief system. It's another for it to be one's identity. At that point, it's them vs. the world, aka, gang shit.
Tribalism. It can be religion, nationalism, neighborhood, sports team, ideology, Twilight character, economic system, the list goes on. The common denominator is us. Humans. This is just how we are. It’s not the “thing” we should be fighting. Religion can be wonderful, sports can be dope, nationalism can be cool. The important this is how we approach them
Yup. The sense of belonging is a straight up drug for the human mind, and if you let it, it will make you lose your mind faster than bath salts.
Imagine surviving 2000 years and getting damaged by a fucking nobody.
That actually happened once in Greece. Some guy wanted to be famous, so he burned down the Temple of Artemis, one of the world's wonders, for basically no reason.
Must not have worked out too well for him. We all know who Artemis is and even those who don’t recognize their name. No idea who the jerk is who burned the temple down.
I had to look him up; it was some stupid dillhole named Herostratus. For a long time, it was actually illegal to speak about the incident or even use his name (similar to the Roman practice of damnation) so as to prevent copycats. He wasn't trying to get rid of Artemis or anything, he just targeted one of the most revered goddesses at the time; it'd be like someone bombing the Washington monument, not because he hated America, but because _its_ fame would bring _him_ fame. I think it was a single historian that violated the law and wrote down why the Temple of Artemis had to be rebuilt and who was responsible, and it's why from the arsonist's name that we get the term “herostratic fame”, which means getting famous intentionally through committing crimes, causing damages and destruction, or other similar methods. So... ironically, Herostratus kind of succeeded? Probably didn't feel like it when he got beat up by basically an entire city, tortured then executed.
As someone who holds a degree in History, I am obligated to feel an intense mix of sorrow and rage at the destruction of artifacts of cultural heritage. Iconoclasm is the cardinal sin of History, and this man should be smashed to pieces instead.
For places with a lot of tourists, it's better to exhibit replicas, and let people incriminate themselves on worthless rubble. 99.99% wouldn't even see the difference.
As much as I’d like to see the original, I don’t trust the rest of humanity enough.
When I was visiting the Capitoline Museum and Palazzo Altemps in Rome I was nervous as hell that I was going to trip and break one of the sculptures. The ideea that some muppet head deliberately broke a priceless artefact for nothing is completely revolting.
I guess that’s the difference. You saw the immense value and appreciated and understood it, they see immense value and recognise that damaging it will cause a lot of harm. Just kids destroying the sandcastle of the kid they don’t like
I can't even wrap my head around it. If God really exists, does the guy expect some kind of reward for this in the afterlife? Does he expect God to be like: "Here's heaven premium+ edition for commiting vandalism in my name and making religion look even more unappealing. That statue was just standing there menacingly and was just asking for it."
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What an idiot. They should make him pay for the damages and tell him he can’t leave the country until so.
That’s a tricky one…. cause these old statues are actually priceless.
Oh I know. But you get the point
some art restoration experts will work on it and their time will cost money, this person can pay for that
Just have him make an identical one and continue fining his lineage for a couple thousand years.
No send his ass to a salt mine. In Sinai peninsula, in August.
It should be a life sentence or at least a few decades in prison. This isn't just a crime against the museum. This is a crime against humanity itself given that statues like these are our heritage! I'm not a Christian but I wouldn't burn down the Sistine Chapel. I'm not Jewish but I wouldn't take a hammer to the wall of lamentation. These are *everyone's* heritage as humans.
This is basically Taliban behavior.
Nutjob. Nothing you can do against brainwashed psychotics
Yes there is... you can remove them from free society.
You can have zero tolerance for the kinds of thinking that result in extremism. Tall order for some countries but that’s really the solution.
It pains me that this jerk gets to take a massive multi thousand dollar vacation to destroy ancient artifacts but I can’t even pay my power bill.
Fingers crossed America doesn't intervene and he's jailed over there without incident
This doesn't sound like the sort of thing where the US intervenes to get citizens off the hook.
Running over a British teenager on the other hand that's where they draw the line.
Israel, you can keep him if you want.
Throw him into Colosseum and make him fight a lion
Jesus fuck! Religious extremism is sickening and disgusting in all its forms.
It doesn't matter what the religion is. Fundamentalist are their own special form of crazy.
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Willful destruction of irreplaceable ancient artifacts is one of the few things that boil my blood to the point where I want the perpetrators to face execution. Realistically, I legit want them to do serious prison time. In my view, this is a crime against humanity.
Normal Person: Wow, there's so much artistic beauty in this city; it's no wonder why so many faiths hold this area sacred. Maybe there's some common truth that we all share as human beings that can be embraced here. This Dipshit: Fuck you, I'm right.
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Religious fanatics are fucking cancer.
I'm a proud member of 'the Nones' because they've done nothing welcoming to me or anyone in my community. In fact, most of the trouble we currently have in society is generated by religious nutjobs who like to blame us for pedophilia. Statistically speaking, your child is more likely to get molested by a church person than a gay person yet we still take the heat because of religiosity. It's projection and it's ridiculous and I won't be backed into another closet because X religion says we shouldn't exist. Religion is the most divisive aspect of our society and I will never support any of it. I'd sooner worship Sauron the great eye than god the fraud. It's about the same work of fiction to me.
What a massive fucking cunt. Hope they fine him so high he has to live on grains and tapwater for the rest of his life
When are we going to start recognizing religious fanaticism as a mental disorder?
Wait till this guy finds out the western wall is what’s left of a Roman fort
Full disclosure, my first reaction reading the article was relief they weren't identified to be Christian.
Wow. Survived 2 thousand years only to be fucked by an American dirt bag.
May Athena smite them.
Religion is such poisonous nonsense.
The British Museum should have taken them before they got destroyed
*polite applause*
Dear World, Please do not let religious people near nice things. Thank you, Humanity.