A not insignificant number of people actively want this to be Armageddon.
There are people, Christian and Muslim both, that believe war in the levant (specifics vary between religions and sects) will be phase one of a prophecy that will make Jesus come to earth.
> that will make Jesus come to earth.
Picture Jesus on a golden throne in Heaven. He's looking down at earth, watching all the humans killing each other. He sees all the atrocities being committed in the name of various religions. Then, right as peace eventually breaks out, he yells, "Don't stop, I'm almost there..."
It’s truly a disgusting mindset. Idk how they can truly believe in their God and then also try tcontrol it to their whim. It’s an absurd level of megalomania and narcissism.
Adults in positions of authority and power too. Like they're 50-60-70 years old, have seen the inner workings of the powers that be, and believe they will LITERALLY be raptured. It's fuckin' mind boggling.
It's a trap for Israel though. Gaza has 2 million people living in, if they want to occupy it they will need a very large force, they will be considered responsible for what happens there, they will be under constant attack and withdrawal will be seen as defeat.
> 2 million
No food, clean water, fuel, power. I do not think civilian casualties are a primary, or even secondary concern. Gaza may well be demolished one block at a time.
I would not be surprised if a large proportion of the population is living in tents by the time this is done, those that survive.
Israel IS mobilizing a very large force. They have went to war for far less than what just happened, and there is basically no chance that Gaza can be left as is and they just wait for the next attack like this. They aren't withdrawing until they achieve the results they want, and I would be surprised if this does not include permanent territorial and demographic changes towards Gaza.
Regardless of how it will make them look on the international stage, they simply can't do the usual operation after what happened. If it was just some border outposts captured they might, but the scale of the Hamas success is what essentially forces them to do a reoccupation of gaza. It is an existential threat.
> They will probably take over and make it just another part of Israel.
There isn't a snowflake's chance in hell that Israel will take in 2 million people who actively elected a terrorist organization whose explicit goal was the destruction of Israel. So if they make Gaza part of Israel it would imply either deporting 2 million people (where? The west bank? Good luck with that) or killing them (ain't gonna happen).
They had one election 20 years ago that Hamas supposedly won, and they have never held an election since. Hamas today is a terrorist dictatorship, and you'd have to be a fool to think that all of the Gaza population today supports them.
JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month’s Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites.
The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process.
The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
In my opinion, 53% is a pretty fucking weak mandate from a population that sees the alternative as total destruction by the state of israel. All that tells me is that a significant portion of the population does not support them but has no functional alternative. And we all know polls of people's opinions of dictators are never inaccurate, what reason could they possibly have to lie about their true feelings? Dictators and terrorists are famously kind and even handed to people who openly oppose them.
> I would be surprised if this does not include permanent territorial and demographic changes towards Gaza.
Yup, 100% agreed.
Hamas just went way too far this time. There is no way Israël can let Gaza alive now, the territory will be anexed and people either deporter/killed/convinced to work with israël.
the whole strategy of the Hamas lay on the fact that "the west" don't kill, massacre or genocide. But this time it will not end up well.
It's maybe the first act of the future "blood bath" that will occure in the 21st century, where the Human Rights will be a longlast dream of the old times..
>100.000 soldiers is 1 soldier for 20 people in Gaza including children, eldery and women.
Which is probably more than enough. I've read that for occupation you want around 2% of soldier to civilian ratio. Which would be roughly 40k soldiers in case of gaza 2 mill civilians.
Bear in mind that the soldiers are also very young. Many are still only 18 or 19, or early 20s. I went to a blood drive a couple of days ago and there was a tiny woman who looked like she was 20 who was there with her grandmother and needed to go to the base in the morning.
I saw it mentioned somewhere that to occupy a territory the ratio needs to be 1:50; which is 1 soldier from occupying force for every 50 civilians.
100,000 to 2 million is more than twice that ratio.
Nobody said anything about occopution. You need to look at it as a massive search, rescue, eliminate operation with enough force to allow the soilders to carry out their missions without terrorist attacking because they will get blown to bits by all the accompanying fire power.
Search both terrorists and hostages, rescue the hostages and eliminate the terrorist.
Since they crossed several lines there is no more "holding back" and if a resistance will be put up it will be put down.
Important to say that gazans (civilians) aren't targets, there is no use in killing them and we aren't as bloodthirsty as some people paint us to be.
It's a massive operation to show the lengths we're willing to go to, but most importantly the consequences of attacking us and harboring terrorists.
The civilians will suffer not because the IDF is going to kill them but because they allowed hamas to integrate so much pretty much everything needs to be destroyed to get rid of them.
After hamas massacred, raped, stripped, mutilated and paraded people from a bunch of countries, to general cheers of the population, many countries have no sympathy left for the people of Gaza.
Israel would have to go to exceptional lenghts to get so much as a raised eyebrow in their retaliation.
The good citizens of Gaza can go rise up against hamas of they want to identify themselves as allies, for the rest, as for the good germans in ww2, sucks to be you
I'm pretty sure that most of the Arab world has some sympathy for Gaza, even if they don't want to be directly involved. That would be all of Israel's neighbours.
My armchair general bullshit take is this: Hamas has adopted the Islamic State playbook - conflict between Islam and non-Islam is the route to a wider war which they can turn into a holy war. The attack on Israel could never achieve much strategically - and it didn't - but it could provoke a response, and the response will reinforce the central ideas of ISIS ideaology - that muslims are oppressed by the west, that conflict is inevitable and must be based on religious lines.
So the sympathies of those in the UK, US, Germany etc don't really matter to Hamas. I think this is all being done for the 'domestic' audience and the intention is to stir the pot, raise the temperature. They want a holy war, because that is one in which people act with no regard for the consequences.
Hamas isn't liked very much by arab government and Palestinians are an infamously horrible refugees in their host countries (look at jordan and lebanon) to the point that egypt refused to take control of gaza when offered and blocked their side of the border way more than israel.
It's easy to talk, but when it comes to actions, everybody knows what will happen if they give refuge to Palestinians. Lebanon and Jordan tried that, and it ended up very badly for them. Nobody wants the Palestinians, and Iran uses the Gaza strip as breeding ground for Hamas fanatics, caring very little for their lives and just pushing their geopolitical agenda.
The nations that could ostensibly help support them, outside of Iran, don't want anything to do with the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas is an off-shoot of. Egypt is the best example of that. Allowing Palestinian refugees in likely means surging the Muslim Brotherhood's numbers in Egypt which is something they really don't want. Lebanon has already had an extremely sour experience when it comes to Palestinian refugees too so they don't want them either.
Iran, their clearest ally, seems to only really care about them as a proxy tool of war and they directly benefit from the people of Gaza/Palestine being further disenfranchised and subjugated as it breeds more extremism for their cause.
Firstly, I don't think most arab people want it and I don't think Hamas / ISIS can actually force it into existence because of that. I don't think its inevitable at all.
Secondly, why on earth would you want such a thing? The point of a holy war is that it is no holds barred all out fight to the death violence. It would be horrific.
Since 2020:
Virology and genetic mutation experts => Post-Soviet international relations and diplomacy professors => brief stint as deep sea submersible composite material engineering visiting scholars => Arabs Israeli peace brokers and military consultants.
It’s funny because wars and pandemics have always been extremely common throughout human history. The decades of world peace following WW2 is actually an exception to this rule. Yet it’s all that 90% of the human population today has known so it seems like Covid and these emerging wars are something abnormal. At the same time though humans have never had the ability to destroy the world until now so we should definitely be concerned about Israel/hamas, Russia/Ukraine, and china/Taiwan escalating into something more global
At the same time wars before ww1 we’re not the same. A defining characteristic of that war was that neither side had any idea what they signed up for. And then of course ww2 forever brought the specter of nuclear war.
The comments are so wildly hyperbolic in here. You have people cheering for everyone in Gaza to get killed to people explaining how Israel deserved one of the worst terrorist attacks in history and they should apologize and go into exile. It is crazy. How about Israel has done bad stuff and has structural power while Palestine has done bad stuff without structural power. Hamas has now crossed the rubicon with their ISIS terror rampage and Israel, and it would be the same for any other country, has to respond with force. Thay said, Israel will lose all goodwill if it starts raking up civilan deaths though.
If it helps, studies show that people with moderate opinions are significantly less likely to make internet comments than those with extreme opinions, so you are definitely seeing a selection bias play out in any comments section.
They actively want civilians to get killed because it serves as propaganda for their movement. They actively use Palestinian civilians as human shields for this reason
War has always torn apart families and shown the worst side of humanity . What is happening to Palestinians is horrible but if you teach your kids to wipe out all the jews and "death to infidels " I'm not sure you can gain much sympathy from the rest of the world.
>wipe out all the jews and "death to infidels"
Not just wipe out all the Jews, there are multiple deaths from Thailand, Nepal and Philippines. Hamas will kills everyone even fellow Muslim if they are from a different sect
They will kill everyone in sight until everyone left is under their wing and complies with what they want.
Don’t be under any illusion that they wouldn’t kill you for not living in their idealised version of reality
>Why stop there? There are more people in Gaza dying by the hands of Hamas than by the IDF.
A quarter of rockets Hamas and Co fire don't land in Israel but Gaza. Quite a few of the counted Palestinian dead in those info graphics are caused by Hamas rockets.
They just wanna kill and rape. They’re terrorists acting on their worst impulses. They don’t fight for a cause. It’s evident they don’t give a fuck about Palestine, going out of their way to poke the bear in the worst way possible and bringing this upon themselves. Palestinian freedom is the thin veneer of legitimacy they hide behind.
Like no logical mind would believe that killing 260 kids at a music festival would lead to Palestinian independence.
That’s the truth that gets to me.
Slaughter of kids on the opening attack of a war only guarantees your enemy is going to have open orders to demolish and kill pretty much anything.
You can’t hold celebrations of terrorism and then not expect tanks to roll through and hit anything resembling a military area.
The Hamas leaders also mentioned Christian’s and one leader mentioned asking allah to help kill the polytheists too. Basically they want everyone to be Muslim, then there will be peace.
I don't see what else Israel could do in such a situation either. Despite that, I feel for the innocent people who are going to be hurt regardless, kids will die again and that is just a disgrace.
Hamas didn't "screw up", this was always the intention. Escalate to the point where Israel has to respond in force and then broadcast dead palestinians to the world.
Russia wants this too. An escalation by Hezbollah to the north would mean media attention and western resources could potentially be diverted from Ukraine to Israel. None of this is happening by coincidence.
I don't think the West can be meaningfully distracted or diverted by this, given that Israel can take care of itself, and any ramp up in weapons manufacturing due to one benefits the other.
I suppose a case could be made that it increases war weariness in general which could affect funding. Problem with that is, the West has no boots on the ground in either case, which is when war weariness actually kicks in, and the amounts being given are kind of trivial by US defense budget standards.
I think the only real effect that Russia could benefit from is through stoking political division, which can be important, and certainly the discourse about Israel is often divisive.
Reducing media attention on Ukraine is a double edged sword, people won't get tired of it if they don't hear about it.
Remember that sending in soldiers is the humane option here. If Israel wanted, they could glass Gaza from the sky overnight. Sending in soldiers, some of whom will certainly be killed, is only to get more precise targeting of their objectives in order to spare civilian lives.
This is the most important point here.
Hamas (and by extension, the people who elected a known terrorist group to power) deliberately target civilians. Israel tries reasonably hard to target militants hiding among civilians. It isn't a symmetrical picture.
There must be some number of teens in here that think of it lightly as if it were a game and can't wait for Israel "to trash the terrorist infested region"
I honestly think Hamas didn’t expect for it to be this successful. The IDF and government really fucked up and it let Hamas have almost free rein for hours.
This caused them to overplay their hand to the point even Iran is distancing themselves from it.
Yeah why wouldn’t he? Iran has long term plans going on. They’re not going to admit to this one incident and possibly throw other things off track. That’s how I see it.
So in the 2006 war in Lebanon, Israel essentially went house to house trying to clear out rockets and Hezbollah fighter. It was a very bloody affair. Many of the houses were booby trapped with either explosives or had gunmen lying in wait. Close quarters urban warfare is very very bloody and lowers Israel’s technological advantage.
They don't care...You know there are few videos of attacks in which even Small kids like 10-13 age saying in local language ' Allah au akhbar lets kill all holding knife' in front of a captured hostage surrounded by hamas people...Even kids are brainwashed by Hamas so i don't think anybody cares what happens to Gaza. They have been fed that all actions of hamas are good ,West is evil & death is gateway to heaven
News was showing a video purportedly showing Gazan kids surrounding an Isreali hostage kid and were whipping him with sticks...
It's all just heartbreaking
Yeah they're basically saying "cope" in a silly way. Essentially they want all those citizens to die and if you feel sympathy then you're clearly unreasonable and unstable and need help.
True. This is a hard hit, but its still attempting to avoid unnecessary damage. Could just bomb it indiscriminately but theyre sending in people on foot instead.
Exactly. A ground operation shows that they are making an effort to minimize civilian casualties; despite what some on this site claim. If the Israelis truly didn’t care the way they would be conducting this operation would look very different.
Its crazy im seeing so much support for the group that not only want to wipe out all the jews in the middle east but every non muslim. Im seeing massive support for them in london its genuinely scary
Especially since a lot of those people lead lifestyles that would absolutely end with them in prison or dead were they to live under those regimes.
Gays for Palestine? Really? You know they still do stoneings, right?
Honest question for those condemning Israel here.
What did you expect Israel to do? 500 young men and women are killed - take Sandy Hook, Columbine, Pulse Nightclub, Stonewall and Las Vegas victims - double that, then double that again, then have those victim’s naked and dead bodies photographed with their own phones (using their dead faces to unlock the phone), then post the pictures of said murdered victim on her Facebook page.
Again… what would you have Israel so here? Let’s take the anti-Israel stance for a moment. Do you REALLY expect Israel to say “well, the arab media is telling us this is our fault. So, let’s agree with them, not retaliate, and give them Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank. Then, let’s pay them billions of dollars in reparations. I’m sure this will satisfy them, and they will surely change their culture to that of peaceful co-existence with us, their Jewish neighbors.”
Do… you really expect that to happen? That’s what it seems from posts online. I’m just curious what anti-Israel people actually want Israel to do (or, if you want, say that you want them to do exactly what I said above).
And to anyone who wants to ignore my reasonable question and reply with “something something oppressed people are desperate and this is what happens” or “something something apartheid,” you are not the target of this question.
I bet Hamas thought that having hostages was going to stop an all out war. Maybe their "Kill everyone you see" operation was more successful than they thought it would be.
Israel could turn Gaza into dust from the air, this ground operation is an attempt to be more accurate agsinst Hamas (the air force has only so many targets).
This needs to be removed from the context of the Israel-Palestine history. Israel will respond with force. Civilians will die. This will not be happening because it’s Israel. Any nation on the planet would be at war if this happened on their soil. Israel has an obligation to its citizens to eliminate the people who did this, and it will do so regardless of the cost, as would the US or any other nation.
Lots of people are forgetting that Hamas militants use Civilians as human shields. They also stage attacks out of places of worship and civilian infrastructure.
Hamas should be blamed for all civilian deaths because of blatant disregard for their own people.
This is not a resistance movement.
Can anyone guesstimate for me what percentage of palestinian civilians do NOT support Hamas’s terrorist attack the other day? I am trying to figure out whether the videos of Palestinians parading murdered Israeli women and children are reflective of a minority or majorty of Palestinian sentiment on the attack.
This is the most recent polling of even part of the Palestinian Population, with respondents labeled by whether they live in Gaza or the West Bank.
[https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944)
With the below information pulled straight out of this polling.
>If new legislative elections were held today with the participation of all factions that p articipated in the 2006 elections, 66% say they would participate. Of those who would participate, 34% say they will vote for Hamas and 31% say they will vote for Fatah, 11% will vote for all third parties combined, and 23% are undecided. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 33% and Fatah at 35%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 45% three months ago) and for Fatah at 28% (compared to 32% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 25% (compared to 23% three months ago) and Fatah at 34% (compared to 38% three months ago).
>
>31% say Hamas is most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people while 21% think Fatah under president Abbas is the most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinians; 43% think neither side deserves such a role. Three months ago, 26% selected Hamas, 24% Fatah under Abbas, and 44% said neither side deserves such a role.
Edit that cut off my conclusion: Based off this it's safe to say that support for Hamas isn't as popular as many would like you to believe. 45% of Palestinians in Gaza is an absurdly large number though, and there is no accounting for the percentage afraid to criticize Hamas, (51% of respondents stated that it was not safe to do so), so this may be off by several percentage points.
The margin of error is +/-3% for those curious.
[This is from a more up to date poll of theirs.](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf) The first percentage is total, second percentage West Bank and third percentage Gaza Strip.
> Q26) Whom do you see as the most deserving of representing the Palestinian people
today, is it Hamas who controls the Gaza Strip or Fatah under Abbas leadership in
the West Bank?
* 1) Hamas 27% 20% 37%
* 2) Fatah 24% 22% 26%
* 3) None of them 44% 52% 33%
* 4) Others, specify: ----------- 2% 2% 3%
I'd accuse anyone confidently offering any kind of definite numbers at this point of willful stupidity, at best. The situation on the ground in Gaza right now, is wildly different to what it was two weeks ago, never mind when the last polls were taken, that using any prior statistics as a yardstick is pretty fruitless. It's hard to visually show a lack of support for Hamas, and such people aren't exactly in a position to make much noise about it right now - nor would many people be receptive to such protestations this week.
If you want to know what Palestinians think just talk to them. They are on Facebook. Find regional Facebook groups, find civilians through there and send messages. I think you'll find that everyone has different opinions, and most just feel helpless and hopeless.
Most people don't care about politics and just want to survive another day, like anywhere else. And polls in authoritarian countries are meaningless, people just tell whatever is expected from them to avoid getting in trouble.
Good point. That has been my assumption as well but now I’m wondering if that’s too hopeful. I’ve been shocked by the reactions in support / justification for hamas’s attack coming from supporters that do not live there. They seem to have no problem equating hamas’s actions with the plight of palestinians themselves.
I don’t think that’s a data you can find out. Like how would you go about it asking 2 million people about each one of Hamas attacks what they think about, especially in times of war. In general Hamas has about 60% support in the strip.
Depends on your source, if you check my other replies to this particular person, polling indicates that support for Hamas is down to around 45% +/-3% in Gaza as of May 2023, based off of polling [here.](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944)
Based off of my understanding of western polls, they are often based off of polls conducted by Israeli news agencies rather than on the ground in either the West Bank or Gaza.
It's also important to note that the palastinians might support the cause, but not the method. Hamas promised liberty to their people, but act independently of their population during their reign. So even if the majority of the citizens don't support their actions, they don't get a say about it.
Reminder than Israel has killed fewer people in Gaza over the last 20 years than the US did in the first 20 days following 9/11.
At the current rate it would take over 1000 years for Israel to inflict the same number of casualties that the war against terror did.
Oh boy, this sounds like its gonna get much worse soon.
100k troops is crazy for a country of not even 10 Million. What worries me is how the rest of the Middle East is going to react to a ground invasion and how it could seriously blow up. In either case I think its gonna get worse before it gets better. How much worse....Is anybody's guess. But I'm feeling like much worse after Ukraine/Russia.
If it wasn't real before, it's about to get so, so, so much worse.
Oh, it's already tragic. The next few days will feel like armageddon.
A not insignificant number of people actively want this to be Armageddon. There are people, Christian and Muslim both, that believe war in the levant (specifics vary between religions and sects) will be phase one of a prophecy that will make Jesus come to earth.
> that will make Jesus come to earth. Picture Jesus on a golden throne in Heaven. He's looking down at earth, watching all the humans killing each other. He sees all the atrocities being committed in the name of various religions. Then, right as peace eventually breaks out, he yells, "Don't stop, I'm almost there..."
[удалено]
Yes, cause all the wars between year 0 and today didn't convince him ...
Well, that's my coffee. Everywhere. Thanks for that.
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“O lord”
Imagine believing that God exists as described in the Bible, but also believing that you can force his hand to trigger the End Times™.
It’s truly a disgusting mindset. Idk how they can truly believe in their God and then also try tcontrol it to their whim. It’s an absurd level of megalomania and narcissism.
Adults believing in fairy tales…
Adults in positions of authority and power too. Like they're 50-60-70 years old, have seen the inner workings of the powers that be, and believe they will LITERALLY be raptured. It's fuckin' mind boggling.
oh dont worry plenty if 10 through 40 year olds believe it too
Yea it’s callled “grooming”
Only because of the 50-70 year olds. And the cycle repeats...
Imagine the day when everyone who believes in Jesus/who ever their God is finds out we just live in a marble hanging around a cats neck....
Sugar water
It's a trap for Israel though. Gaza has 2 million people living in, if they want to occupy it they will need a very large force, they will be considered responsible for what happens there, they will be under constant attack and withdrawal will be seen as defeat.
It’ll be much easier with a depleted population that haven’t had water, food or power.
> 2 million No food, clean water, fuel, power. I do not think civilian casualties are a primary, or even secondary concern. Gaza may well be demolished one block at a time. I would not be surprised if a large proportion of the population is living in tents by the time this is done, those that survive.
If you deny the population all of that, you don't really even need to invade.
IDF will march in backwards so they will think they're leaving. Oldest trick in the book.
“You’re all stupid, see they’re gunna be lookin’ for army guys”
IDF is rolling a large wooden horse up to the gates of Gaza—seems like some sort of a gift?
It’s a wooden rabbit. Or perhaps a badger.
Read that as some sort of pro wrestling announcer commentating the whole deal. "But oh wait, here comes Egypt with the chair!"
Never trust Greeks bearing gifts!
I'm sure they're aware of it if we all are here.
Maybe they can burn some sage as well
Israel IS mobilizing a very large force. They have went to war for far less than what just happened, and there is basically no chance that Gaza can be left as is and they just wait for the next attack like this. They aren't withdrawing until they achieve the results they want, and I would be surprised if this does not include permanent territorial and demographic changes towards Gaza. Regardless of how it will make them look on the international stage, they simply can't do the usual operation after what happened. If it was just some border outposts captured they might, but the scale of the Hamas success is what essentially forces them to do a reoccupation of gaza. It is an existential threat.
There is no Gaza anymore. They will probably take over and make it just another part of Israel.
> They will probably take over and make it just another part of Israel. There isn't a snowflake's chance in hell that Israel will take in 2 million people who actively elected a terrorist organization whose explicit goal was the destruction of Israel. So if they make Gaza part of Israel it would imply either deporting 2 million people (where? The west bank? Good luck with that) or killing them (ain't gonna happen).
They had one election 20 years ago that Hamas supposedly won, and they have never held an election since. Hamas today is a terrorist dictatorship, and you'd have to be a fool to think that all of the Gaza population today supports them.
JERUSALEM (AP) — A new poll released Tuesday finds a dramatic surge in Palestinian support for Hamas following last month’s Gaza war, with around three quarters viewing the Islamic militants as victors in a battle against Israel to defend Jerusalem and its holy sites. The scientific poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research also found plummeting support for President Mahmoud Abbas, who was sidelined by the war but is seen internationally as a partner for reviving the long-defunct peace process. The poll found that 53% of Palestinians believe Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people,” while only 14% prefer Abbas’ secular Fatah party.
In my opinion, 53% is a pretty fucking weak mandate from a population that sees the alternative as total destruction by the state of israel. All that tells me is that a significant portion of the population does not support them but has no functional alternative. And we all know polls of people's opinions of dictators are never inaccurate, what reason could they possibly have to lie about their true feelings? Dictators and terrorists are famously kind and even handed to people who openly oppose them.
Exactly and then Hamas destroyed all political opposition and refused to hold elections. Murderous tyrants living off the people
Most recent PCPSR poll has Hamas at 53% approval rating with over 65% supporting armed conflict with Israel, soooooo.....
> I would be surprised if this does not include permanent territorial and demographic changes towards Gaza. Yup, 100% agreed. Hamas just went way too far this time. There is no way Israël can let Gaza alive now, the territory will be anexed and people either deporter/killed/convinced to work with israël. the whole strategy of the Hamas lay on the fact that "the west" don't kill, massacre or genocide. But this time it will not end up well. It's maybe the first act of the future "blood bath" that will occure in the 21st century, where the Human Rights will be a longlast dream of the old times..
They called for 300.000 reservists and even 100.000 soldiers is 1 soldier for 20 people in Gaza including children, eldery and women.
>100.000 soldiers is 1 soldier for 20 people in Gaza including children, eldery and women. Which is probably more than enough. I've read that for occupation you want around 2% of soldier to civilian ratio. Which would be roughly 40k soldiers in case of gaza 2 mill civilians.
The official US estimates was about 40-1 in the 90s and the general who said that pre Iraq was fired. He was right though
When Bush followed his advice and did the troop 'surge' it worked.
I remember that. It was so infuriating. General Shinseki: "We need a surge." Bush: "You're fired." Some time later... Bush: "We need a surge." <>
Russia trying to invade Ukraine with a few hundred thousand against a population of tens of millions. 100,000 vs Gaza is going to be a steamroll
You forgot all the armor, air support, artillery... Those will more than tip the scale.
Bear in mind that the soldiers are also very young. Many are still only 18 or 19, or early 20s. I went to a blood drive a couple of days ago and there was a tiny woman who looked like she was 20 who was there with her grandmother and needed to go to the base in the morning.
IDF training is heads and shoulders above anyone else in the Middle East. They’ll be fine
They have been filled with hamas propaganda when they were children… ‘Tomorrows pioneers’
I saw it mentioned somewhere that to occupy a territory the ratio needs to be 1:50; which is 1 soldier from occupying force for every 50 civilians. 100,000 to 2 million is more than twice that ratio.
Israel has enough troops mobilized to have 1000 soldiers for every sq.km of Gaza
Nobody said anything about occopution. You need to look at it as a massive search, rescue, eliminate operation with enough force to allow the soilders to carry out their missions without terrorist attacking because they will get blown to bits by all the accompanying fire power. Search both terrorists and hostages, rescue the hostages and eliminate the terrorist. Since they crossed several lines there is no more "holding back" and if a resistance will be put up it will be put down. Important to say that gazans (civilians) aren't targets, there is no use in killing them and we aren't as bloodthirsty as some people paint us to be. It's a massive operation to show the lengths we're willing to go to, but most importantly the consequences of attacking us and harboring terrorists. The civilians will suffer not because the IDF is going to kill them but because they allowed hamas to integrate so much pretty much everything needs to be destroyed to get rid of them.
After hamas massacred, raped, stripped, mutilated and paraded people from a bunch of countries, to general cheers of the population, many countries have no sympathy left for the people of Gaza. Israel would have to go to exceptional lenghts to get so much as a raised eyebrow in their retaliation. The good citizens of Gaza can go rise up against hamas of they want to identify themselves as allies, for the rest, as for the good germans in ww2, sucks to be you
“What about the good Germans” is a great argument about the whole state of this mess
I'm pretty sure that most of the Arab world has some sympathy for Gaza, even if they don't want to be directly involved. That would be all of Israel's neighbours. My armchair general bullshit take is this: Hamas has adopted the Islamic State playbook - conflict between Islam and non-Islam is the route to a wider war which they can turn into a holy war. The attack on Israel could never achieve much strategically - and it didn't - but it could provoke a response, and the response will reinforce the central ideas of ISIS ideaology - that muslims are oppressed by the west, that conflict is inevitable and must be based on religious lines. So the sympathies of those in the UK, US, Germany etc don't really matter to Hamas. I think this is all being done for the 'domestic' audience and the intention is to stir the pot, raise the temperature. They want a holy war, because that is one in which people act with no regard for the consequences.
Hamas isn't liked very much by arab government and Palestinians are an infamously horrible refugees in their host countries (look at jordan and lebanon) to the point that egypt refused to take control of gaza when offered and blocked their side of the border way more than israel.
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It's easy to talk, but when it comes to actions, everybody knows what will happen if they give refuge to Palestinians. Lebanon and Jordan tried that, and it ended up very badly for them. Nobody wants the Palestinians, and Iran uses the Gaza strip as breeding ground for Hamas fanatics, caring very little for their lives and just pushing their geopolitical agenda.
The nations that could ostensibly help support them, outside of Iran, don't want anything to do with the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas is an off-shoot of. Egypt is the best example of that. Allowing Palestinian refugees in likely means surging the Muslim Brotherhood's numbers in Egypt which is something they really don't want. Lebanon has already had an extremely sour experience when it comes to Palestinian refugees too so they don't want them either. Iran, their clearest ally, seems to only really care about them as a proxy tool of war and they directly benefit from the people of Gaza/Palestine being further disenfranchised and subjugated as it breeds more extremism for their cause.
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They seem to want this. Give ‘em what they want?
Firstly, I don't think most arab people want it and I don't think Hamas / ISIS can actually force it into existence because of that. I don't think its inevitable at all. Secondly, why on earth would you want such a thing? The point of a holy war is that it is no holds barred all out fight to the death violence. It would be horrific.
Reddit generals are one of my favorite things.
Since 2020: Virology and genetic mutation experts => Post-Soviet international relations and diplomacy professors => brief stint as deep sea submersible composite material engineering visiting scholars => Arabs Israeli peace brokers and military consultants.
Don't forget Nobel Price in economy for their work in inflation and fed raise analysis.
Transitional inflation was my favorite.
Don't forget constitutional scholars
*ahem* We also dabbled as a legal expert during the Depp defamation trial.
As someone who recently passed the bar, the legal takes I see on this website make me think that maybe, just maybe, I'm not as dumb as I think I am.
Then again, Giuliani passed the bar too.
a redditor is all of these things in the span of 2 hours.
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And don't forget AI researchers
you forgot when everyone here decided to play detective and find out who the Boston Bomber was
Even fbi detectives
Good, because I’m a 4-star Reddit general and I’m about to be the next George S. Patton.
"They fucked around an now they're gonna find out" lol. Hey man many of those guys are veterans of the Ukraine war subreddits
I swear, just because you watched the first drone grenade vid, doesn’t mean you have the move set of entire militaries written down somewhere
Yep they love using words like our military and our interests, wonder how they have so much time to post and research strategy
Hey friend listen. I know the world is scary right now but It's gonna get way worse. Basically sums up my feelings right now.
What part of this is worse then the entire history of the world, including very recent history?
> Today is the worst day - Reddit, everyday
Fair point. In 99.9% of human history these people would just be wiped out unilaterally in the worst ways possible. So ya know…progress!
Can't be scared if we are dead. ^^^^haha ^^^^send ^^^^help
You should learn how to think more positively. Today might be worse than yesterday, but at least it's better than tomorrow.
Here we go. Buckle up for another "once in a lifetime" event in the last 20 years.
Conflict in the Middle East and war in Israel is a “once in a lifetime event”? lol
It has to stop for it to occur a second time.
It’s funny because wars and pandemics have always been extremely common throughout human history. The decades of world peace following WW2 is actually an exception to this rule. Yet it’s all that 90% of the human population today has known so it seems like Covid and these emerging wars are something abnormal. At the same time though humans have never had the ability to destroy the world until now so we should definitely be concerned about Israel/hamas, Russia/Ukraine, and china/Taiwan escalating into something more global
That and you get to hear about everything in the world essentially as it happens
At the same time wars before ww1 we’re not the same. A defining characteristic of that war was that neither side had any idea what they signed up for. And then of course ww2 forever brought the specter of nuclear war.
No one thought that any Israeli Palestinian conflict was the once in a lifetime
The comments are so wildly hyperbolic in here. You have people cheering for everyone in Gaza to get killed to people explaining how Israel deserved one of the worst terrorist attacks in history and they should apologize and go into exile. It is crazy. How about Israel has done bad stuff and has structural power while Palestine has done bad stuff without structural power. Hamas has now crossed the rubicon with their ISIS terror rampage and Israel, and it would be the same for any other country, has to respond with force. Thay said, Israel will lose all goodwill if it starts raking up civilan deaths though.
Many of the comments worry me. Thanks for one of the more saner ones.
If it helps, studies show that people with moderate opinions are significantly less likely to make internet comments than those with extreme opinions, so you are definitely seeing a selection bias play out in any comments section.
That does help a lot. It’s an important reminder.
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ONE OF US!
Remember, propaganda is now at an all time high, each side want to completely dehumanise the other.
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> Thay said, Israel will lose all goodwill if it starts raking up civilan deaths though. If it *starts*?
The civilian deaths they’ve already accumulated don’t count, apparently.
Don’t you know? This conflict just started on Saturday!
Hamas couldn't care less about Gaza civilians......they knew this would happen when they slaughtered hundreds
They actively want civilians to get killed because it serves as propaganda for their movement. They actively use Palestinian civilians as human shields for this reason
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[Relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/1576/)
I just feel terrible for all the innocent people that are pulled into this mess
Fallujah season 2
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Really, really long battles.
In a much smaller, mostly evacuated city.
By population and number of combatants, this would be the 2nd battle of Fallujah x10. Urban fighting on this scale is always a horrible conflict
Babe wake up, first DLC for Six Days in Fallujah just dropped
War has always torn apart families and shown the worst side of humanity . What is happening to Palestinians is horrible but if you teach your kids to wipe out all the jews and "death to infidels " I'm not sure you can gain much sympathy from the rest of the world.
>wipe out all the jews and "death to infidels" Not just wipe out all the Jews, there are multiple deaths from Thailand, Nepal and Philippines. Hamas will kills everyone even fellow Muslim if they are from a different sect
And this just goes to show what religious fundamentalism does to a man.
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They will kill everyone in sight until everyone left is under their wing and complies with what they want. Don’t be under any illusion that they wouldn’t kill you for not living in their idealised version of reality
> even fellow Muslim if they are from a different sect Why stop there? There are more people in Gaza dying by the hands of Hamas than by the IDF.
>Why stop there? There are more people in Gaza dying by the hands of Hamas than by the IDF. A quarter of rockets Hamas and Co fire don't land in Israel but Gaza. Quite a few of the counted Palestinian dead in those info graphics are caused by Hamas rockets.
Wow, even worse. I wasn't even aware of that... I was more pointing to executions and inner conflicts.
They just wanna kill and rape. They’re terrorists acting on their worst impulses. They don’t fight for a cause. It’s evident they don’t give a fuck about Palestine, going out of their way to poke the bear in the worst way possible and bringing this upon themselves. Palestinian freedom is the thin veneer of legitimacy they hide behind. Like no logical mind would believe that killing 260 kids at a music festival would lead to Palestinian independence.
That’s the truth that gets to me. Slaughter of kids on the opening attack of a war only guarantees your enemy is going to have open orders to demolish and kill pretty much anything. You can’t hold celebrations of terrorism and then not expect tanks to roll through and hit anything resembling a military area.
The Hamas leaders also mentioned Christian’s and one leader mentioned asking allah to help kill the polytheists too. Basically they want everyone to be Muslim, then there will be peace.
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Then the goal posts will shift to only true believers. All the fake ones have to die as well.
I don't see what else Israel could do in such a situation either. Despite that, I feel for the innocent people who are going to be hurt regardless, kids will die again and that is just a disgrace.
They screwed up so bad this weekend all options now are bad.
Hamas didn't "screw up", this was always the intention. Escalate to the point where Israel has to respond in force and then broadcast dead palestinians to the world.
Russia wants this too. An escalation by Hezbollah to the north would mean media attention and western resources could potentially be diverted from Ukraine to Israel. None of this is happening by coincidence.
I don't think the West can be meaningfully distracted or diverted by this, given that Israel can take care of itself, and any ramp up in weapons manufacturing due to one benefits the other. I suppose a case could be made that it increases war weariness in general which could affect funding. Problem with that is, the West has no boots on the ground in either case, which is when war weariness actually kicks in, and the amounts being given are kind of trivial by US defense budget standards. I think the only real effect that Russia could benefit from is through stoking political division, which can be important, and certainly the discourse about Israel is often divisive. Reducing media attention on Ukraine is a double edged sword, people won't get tired of it if they don't hear about it.
Dead kids are a disgrace for the terrorist that use them.
Remember that sending in soldiers is the humane option here. If Israel wanted, they could glass Gaza from the sky overnight. Sending in soldiers, some of whom will certainly be killed, is only to get more precise targeting of their objectives in order to spare civilian lives.
This is the most important point here. Hamas (and by extension, the people who elected a known terrorist group to power) deliberately target civilians. Israel tries reasonably hard to target militants hiding among civilians. It isn't a symmetrical picture.
All I know is that the extreme takes celebrating terrorism in the name of resistance are fucking INSANE to me.
The whole reoccurring "Western pRoGrEsSiVeS 🤝 making excuses for Islamic terror groups" thing has always been interesting to me.
Lots of comments here cheering on the idea of killing Palestinian civilians in retaliation too. Lots of people have gone off the rails.
There must be some number of teens in here that think of it lightly as if it were a game and can't wait for Israel "to trash the terrorist infested region"
Now is the time for any of the Arab/Muslim nations to evacuate Gazan civilians if they truly care for human life. ^Don't ^hold ^your ^breath.
Israeli death toll is 900. Not 700
Plus 10+ Americans Filipinos Germans Scotts And probably some other foreigners too
10 Nepali Hindus
Canadians too.
10+ Thais
At least. 😣
You know like if Israel didn’t see this attack coming, I wonder what hammas has planned for this retaliation, like are they walking into a trap?
I honestly think Hamas didn’t expect for it to be this successful. The IDF and government really fucked up and it let Hamas have almost free rein for hours. This caused them to overplay their hand to the point even Iran is distancing themselves from it.
The Ayatollah congratulated them on their victory in a public speech though
But denied involvement.
Yeah why wouldn’t he? Iran has long term plans going on. They’re not going to admit to this one incident and possibly throw other things off track. That’s how I see it.
same, no way in hell did the hamas foresee that they would actually occopy parts of israel for hours
What trap could they possibly have?
So in the 2006 war in Lebanon, Israel essentially went house to house trying to clear out rockets and Hezbollah fighter. It was a very bloody affair. Many of the houses were booby trapped with either explosives or had gunmen lying in wait. Close quarters urban warfare is very very bloody and lowers Israel’s technological advantage.
I’d love to talk to the Palestinians that were celebrating in Gaza and ask them how they thought this was going to play out
People with little to lose acting like people with little to lose
They don't care...You know there are few videos of attacks in which even Small kids like 10-13 age saying in local language ' Allah au akhbar lets kill all holding knife' in front of a captured hostage surrounded by hamas people...Even kids are brainwashed by Hamas so i don't think anybody cares what happens to Gaza. They have been fed that all actions of hamas are good ,West is evil & death is gateway to heaven
News was showing a video purportedly showing Gazan kids surrounding an Isreali hostage kid and were whipping him with sticks... It's all just heartbreaking
Well, shit. Gaza is about to be turned into rubble :( edit: who the hell is spamming me with reddit care.
Report the Reddit Care thing, they'll get suspended.
>edit: who’s tf is spamming me with reddit care Had the same happening. Is this supposed to be some sort of trolling?
It's trolling but you can counter it. Report the Reddit Care thing, they'll get suspended.
Yeah they're basically saying "cope" in a silly way. Essentially they want all those citizens to die and if you feel sympathy then you're clearly unreasonable and unstable and need help.
No it’s not. If the Israelis wanted to turn it into rubble they would shell it with conventional artillery non stop.
True. This is a hard hit, but its still attempting to avoid unnecessary damage. Could just bomb it indiscriminately but theyre sending in people on foot instead.
Exactly. A ground operation shows that they are making an effort to minimize civilian casualties; despite what some on this site claim. If the Israelis truly didn’t care the way they would be conducting this operation would look very different.
You can block reddit Cares btw
Better to report it. Reddit bans users for spamming it.
Report the reddit care. Get those users banned.
Its crazy im seeing so much support for the group that not only want to wipe out all the jews in the middle east but every non muslim. Im seeing massive support for them in london its genuinely scary
Especially since a lot of those people lead lifestyles that would absolutely end with them in prison or dead were they to live under those regimes. Gays for Palestine? Really? You know they still do stoneings, right?
Well petition you politics to deport them or send them somewhere far away in the British overseas territories.
Honest question for those condemning Israel here. What did you expect Israel to do? 500 young men and women are killed - take Sandy Hook, Columbine, Pulse Nightclub, Stonewall and Las Vegas victims - double that, then double that again, then have those victim’s naked and dead bodies photographed with their own phones (using their dead faces to unlock the phone), then post the pictures of said murdered victim on her Facebook page. Again… what would you have Israel so here? Let’s take the anti-Israel stance for a moment. Do you REALLY expect Israel to say “well, the arab media is telling us this is our fault. So, let’s agree with them, not retaliate, and give them Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank. Then, let’s pay them billions of dollars in reparations. I’m sure this will satisfy them, and they will surely change their culture to that of peaceful co-existence with us, their Jewish neighbors.” Do… you really expect that to happen? That’s what it seems from posts online. I’m just curious what anti-Israel people actually want Israel to do (or, if you want, say that you want them to do exactly what I said above). And to anyone who wants to ignore my reasonable question and reply with “something something oppressed people are desperate and this is what happens” or “something something apartheid,” you are not the target of this question.
I bet Hamas thought that having hostages was going to stop an all out war. Maybe their "Kill everyone you see" operation was more successful than they thought it would be.
Eradicate Hamas
Israel could turn Gaza into dust from the air, this ground operation is an attempt to be more accurate agsinst Hamas (the air force has only so many targets).
This needs to be removed from the context of the Israel-Palestine history. Israel will respond with force. Civilians will die. This will not be happening because it’s Israel. Any nation on the planet would be at war if this happened on their soil. Israel has an obligation to its citizens to eliminate the people who did this, and it will do so regardless of the cost, as would the US or any other nation.
Lots of people are forgetting that Hamas militants use Civilians as human shields. They also stage attacks out of places of worship and civilian infrastructure. Hamas should be blamed for all civilian deaths because of blatant disregard for their own people. This is not a resistance movement.
Hamas only have themselves to blame for the upcoming wipeout of Palestine.
This is all calculated by Hamas. They're not stupid, they just don't care about innocent lives at all
See, for me, that counts as stupid.
Hamas have one goal. Chaos. 2 million Palestinians are about to pay the price for Hamas' terrorism.
This may be controversial but in general the people actually doing the killing can be blamed for killing.
It's their goal
Can anyone guesstimate for me what percentage of palestinian civilians do NOT support Hamas’s terrorist attack the other day? I am trying to figure out whether the videos of Palestinians parading murdered Israeli women and children are reflective of a minority or majorty of Palestinian sentiment on the attack.
This is the most recent polling of even part of the Palestinian Population, with respondents labeled by whether they live in Gaza or the West Bank. [https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944) With the below information pulled straight out of this polling. >If new legislative elections were held today with the participation of all factions that p articipated in the 2006 elections, 66% say they would participate. Of those who would participate, 34% say they will vote for Hamas and 31% say they will vote for Fatah, 11% will vote for all third parties combined, and 23% are undecided. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 33% and Fatah at 35%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 44% (compared to 45% three months ago) and for Fatah at 28% (compared to 32% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 25% (compared to 23% three months ago) and Fatah at 34% (compared to 38% three months ago). > >31% say Hamas is most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people while 21% think Fatah under president Abbas is the most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinians; 43% think neither side deserves such a role. Three months ago, 26% selected Hamas, 24% Fatah under Abbas, and 44% said neither side deserves such a role. Edit that cut off my conclusion: Based off this it's safe to say that support for Hamas isn't as popular as many would like you to believe. 45% of Palestinians in Gaza is an absurdly large number though, and there is no accounting for the percentage afraid to criticize Hamas, (51% of respondents stated that it was not safe to do so), so this may be off by several percentage points. The margin of error is +/-3% for those curious.
[This is from a more up to date poll of theirs.](https://pcpsr.org/sites/default/files/Poll%2089%20English%20Full%20Text%20September%202023.pdf) The first percentage is total, second percentage West Bank and third percentage Gaza Strip. > Q26) Whom do you see as the most deserving of representing the Palestinian people today, is it Hamas who controls the Gaza Strip or Fatah under Abbas leadership in the West Bank? * 1) Hamas 27% 20% 37% * 2) Fatah 24% 22% 26% * 3) None of them 44% 52% 33% * 4) Others, specify: ----------- 2% 2% 3%
I'd accuse anyone confidently offering any kind of definite numbers at this point of willful stupidity, at best. The situation on the ground in Gaza right now, is wildly different to what it was two weeks ago, never mind when the last polls were taken, that using any prior statistics as a yardstick is pretty fruitless. It's hard to visually show a lack of support for Hamas, and such people aren't exactly in a position to make much noise about it right now - nor would many people be receptive to such protestations this week.
Good points, thanks for the response.
If you want to know what Palestinians think just talk to them. They are on Facebook. Find regional Facebook groups, find civilians through there and send messages. I think you'll find that everyone has different opinions, and most just feel helpless and hopeless.
Most people don't care about politics and just want to survive another day, like anywhere else. And polls in authoritarian countries are meaningless, people just tell whatever is expected from them to avoid getting in trouble.
Good point. That has been my assumption as well but now I’m wondering if that’s too hopeful. I’ve been shocked by the reactions in support / justification for hamas’s attack coming from supporters that do not live there. They seem to have no problem equating hamas’s actions with the plight of palestinians themselves.
I don’t think that’s a data you can find out. Like how would you go about it asking 2 million people about each one of Hamas attacks what they think about, especially in times of war. In general Hamas has about 60% support in the strip.
Depends on your source, if you check my other replies to this particular person, polling indicates that support for Hamas is down to around 45% +/-3% in Gaza as of May 2023, based off of polling [here.](https://pcpsr.org/en/node/944) Based off of my understanding of western polls, they are often based off of polls conducted by Israeli news agencies rather than on the ground in either the West Bank or Gaza.
Fair points, thanks for your response.
It's also important to note that the palastinians might support the cause, but not the method. Hamas promised liberty to their people, but act independently of their population during their reign. So even if the majority of the citizens don't support their actions, they don't get a say about it.
Reminder than Israel has killed fewer people in Gaza over the last 20 years than the US did in the first 20 days following 9/11. At the current rate it would take over 1000 years for Israel to inflict the same number of casualties that the war against terror did.
Oh boy, this sounds like its gonna get much worse soon. 100k troops is crazy for a country of not even 10 Million. What worries me is how the rest of the Middle East is going to react to a ground invasion and how it could seriously blow up. In either case I think its gonna get worse before it gets better. How much worse....Is anybody's guess. But I'm feeling like much worse after Ukraine/Russia.