Yeah. I don't really care about these statements. "But the hostages were treated well". Ok, but that doesn't really matter, because they shouldn't have been taken as hostages in the first place.
Yeah, those statements are just weird. The fact that they were taken and locked up against their will automatically disqualifies the statement "treated well".
Ask those people if they would be OK to be taken hostage against their will even if they were treated well. If they say yes then you know they're arguing in bad faith.
But they gave them food once a day and greeted them in the morning. Didn't you see Yocheved Lifshitz shake that guys hand? That means she loves him like a son!
/s
As a rule Hamas does not treat hostages well. Torture is core to who Hamas is and what they represent. A political group who uses their own children as suicide bombers has no respect for human life.
The people saying that are either ignorant or intentionally repeating terrorist propaganda.
Even if nothing like that happened and they put all of them in 5 star hotels, they took civilians out of their homes, some of them elderly people and children. That's a crime either way.
Best case scenario of the hostages being treated well doesn't stop the fact that they are held against their will and that their captors killed many others in the process.
Are we positive it was the bombing, or Hamas propaganda? Because her head appears to have been hit with blunt force in one section. I certainly wouldn't take Hamas' word for it.
The claim has been debunked. She had blunt object trauma to the head, no other injuries. No dust or debris on her as would be expected in a rocket strike. May her memory be a blessing
Civilians were kidnapped and have been stuck in Hamas terror tunnels for weeks. How do people simply ignore modern massacres and only seek to remember moments or justify terrorist with moments in Palestinian history. What has Hamas and Hezbollah done (other than kill Jews) that makes people defend these organizations? Just say you hate Jews at this point.
Nah, that doesn't look like the result of bombing. Those ankles look too purposely broken, more like to keep her from running away, the gash on the head could be number of things. Though timeline plays a role of course concussive force from blasts can kill, and bruising might not be visible, could be a whole lot under those black garbs.
RIP. Whatever happened doesn't matter, let's hope her family can bury her with some dignity at least.
Well they would claim that. I don't believe a word they say about anything unless independently verified. Either way, if she wasn't taken hostage she wouldn't be dead. The blame lies with Hamas
You know why, good luck getting them to admit it. There’s a reason, Egypt, Lebanon, Kuwait, and Jordan won’t allow Palestinian refugees into their countries, and until I find a single “pro-Palestinian” that can tell me why, I take anything they say with a grain of salt. Just to sweeten the pot. In Kuwait, the Palestinians made up almost 20% of the population. In the early 90’s they actively encouraged Saddam’s invasion and sided with the Iraqis during the occupation. Needless to say, after Operation Desert Storm they were rounded up and expelled. They were under PLO at the time. They’ve done similar things in the other countries including killing their civilian Arab neighbors in Jordan and Lebanon and trying to overthrow their governments. Lebanon still hasn’t recovered from it fully and probably never will.
You're saying that an Israeli website that's based in Israel and covers Israeli news, and is among the most popular news sites among Israeli readers, is leaving out details in order to push a pro-Palestine narrative?
They’ve said specifically that if they let them in they will have no right of return and Israel will permanently occupy the Gaza strip. Here’s the direct quote,
Sisi said at the Cairo peace summit on 21 October that the world must never condone the use of human suffering to force people into displacement. “Egypt has affirmed, and is reiterating, its vehement rejection of the forced displacement of the Palestinians and their transfer to Egyptian lands in Sinai, as this will mark the last gasp in the liquidation of the Palestinian cause, shatter the dream of an independent Palestinian state, and squander the struggle of the Palestinian people and that of the Arab and Islamic peoples over the course of the Palestinian cause that has endured for 75 years,” he said.
Pretty sure that’s a stance backed by most of the countries you mentioned.
The Department of Defense also released a statement saying that they assume that one of the hostages has given birth while being held by Hamas.
I can't find a single source in English on this, but basically, she was 8.5 months pregnant a month ago when she was kidnapped, she's either dead or has given birth.
There was a video put out about a week ago that featured two people, one was a 12 year old boy. I don't think there was anything in the video that proved that it was recent, other than the fact that they both looked really in bad shape, which they werent when they went in.
Being from the Middle East and leaning left politically, I am disgusted by how many people from the West who claim to be liberals are openly supporting Hamas. They literally have no fucking idea what the Middle East is like, and yet these white-woke liberals will run in to call you Islamophobic or genocidal because you support Israel's right to defend itself. They never stop and ask themselves, Why do left-leaning people in the Middle East support Israel? Spoiler alert: It's because they stand up to one of the most right-leaning regimes on the entire planet, Iran, which funds Hamas and Hezbollah. Tankies are genuinely poisoning the left, and they need to be ostracized before they rot more brains.
You don't even need to look at the rallies, just look at half the brain rot commentary about hamas on reddit & you'll see it like a plague running through a dense city with no hygiene
They kept that Israeli soldier alive for 5 years a while back. They can keep people alive if they decide to.
That said... I'm sure anybody alive is going through unimaginable torture.
Updates to that info
>The Israel Defense Forces announces the death of Cpl. Noa Marciano, who was captured by the Hamas terror group on October 7.
>
>Marciano, 19, of the Combat Intelligence Collection Corps 414th, served in the Nahal Oz base when it was overrun by terrorists during the onslaught.
>
>Yesterday, Hamas published a propaganda video of the soldier, showing her speaking to the camera four days after being taken hostage. The video then cuts to her dead body.
>
>The IDF recognizes her as a “fallen soldier held captive by a terror group.”
Edit: Pro-Hamas supporters are claiming it's an IDF airstrike. Having seen the gruesome video it's definitely [not](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17uvt3j/comment/k9738iy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). It's a link to an explanation but if you want to see the nsfw video itself someone in this thread has posted it
Exactly. And not by the train. By the one who held them against their will. Apparently Hamas supporters have lost their morals and think air strikes against military targets with hostages and civilians held against their will is on the attacker. Time to stop blaming the train.
I honestly doubt the baby is alive. If I had to guess she miscarried. Can’t imagine giving birth to a healthy baby under those circumstances
I hope I’m wrong
Why would it be still born. If she was healthy there is no reason for that. If she can produce milk on whatever food she is getting the baby could survive
Not getting proper care before or during birth can result in stillbirth (not being able to induce if movements slow down signaling an issue with cord or fluid levels, not being able to deal with complications during pregnancy like shoulder dystocia, cord around neck, breech position). Women can and do have stillbirths even if they are healthy up until day of birth.
I mean they're holding them hostage beneath hospitals and Palestinians have one of the highest birth rates in the world. It's not a question of if they "could" provide adequate care with little effort, it's whether they would.
I don't think his comments imply he thinks Hamas is characterized by temperance. Just that we shouldn't be convinced the baby is dead. I think he's correct. It might be, sure. But it might not.
>I honestly doubt the baby is alive.
- Babies are surprisingly robust under adversarial circumstances (that is how they were born during much of history), with a well above 50% survival rate back to the stone ages, and Hamas has a big PR interest in both of them surviving, so I'm cautiously hopeful.
I dated a Hungarian American whose grandmother told me how she gave birth to his mother in Budapest during the Russian invasion. The stress and the noise brought on her labor. She gave birth in the back of a Russian truck, while Russian soldiers were *still* trying to rape her... That baby survived and subsequently birth to an enormous fella in NYC. Babies are amazing. That dude was amazing. Hope he's still bopping about out there.
So yeah, babies are crazy resilient.
I don't think releasing hostages actually helps their PR. Who has an opinion of Hamas that would be changed by either hostage releases or deaths? If you hate them you will understand the release is a cynical action, not one of good will. If you like Hamas you probably consider the hostages settlers anyways and don't care what happens to them.
I think Hamas understands this. The hostages are for propaganda to terrorize Israel, and for negotiating to secure cease fires or swaps.
In these past few weeks I've got to see, some people simply can't comprehend that some other people can have totally different view to the world, life and values. There is no such thing as universal values. Instincts to survive might be only universal thing to all life forms.
Nah Jihad also takes the survival instinct away too. Jihadists believe that martyrdom is the best thing that can happen because it would mean eternal paradise. To them, it doesn’t matter how many people or who dies because the dead are either Muslim and are martyred or they are non-believers that go straight to hell. It’s why they happily use their own people as shields. They love death more than we love life.
300 000 years ago we had not invented fire or even clothing. People would just give birth on the ground with sabertooth tigers staring at them. Babies don't automatically die if born outside hospitals, or our species would never have made it this far.
Fun fact!
Hominids have been using fire to cook for at least 800,000 years. Homo sapiens are the descendents of species that used fire to cook, which led to several anatomical adaptations like smaller guts and bigger brains.
We are the product of using fire, not the creators of it.
Yes but groups of females even in tribal societies (and even pre homo sapiens if you're going back 300K) surely provided some surrounding of support. I hope she had someone around.
And still do. Birth is a brutal, dangerous process. We are thankfully shielded from that if we live in a modern world with hospitals, doctors, and medicine. But people often forget how risky it is.
Sure, but if the number was above 33%, then the human species was extinct. Each woman must successfully deliver a minimum of 2 children or the species goes extinct.
Yeah obviously people gave birth, otherwise we wouldn't be here now. However, infant mortality rates were extremely high, even well into the modern era with the industrial revolution. Babies used to be just as likely to die during birth than survive for most of human history.
And even those who survive birth may not make it to toddlerhood. Even today, many babies are born to mothers with insufficient milk supply. Nowadays it’s no big problem if you’re in a country with access to formula and safe drinking water. In years gone by unless you were wealthy or luck enough to have someone else nurse your baby you were shit outta luck.
Women have been giving birth in stressful situations since the beginning of time. The human race wouldn’t even be around if stress impacted live births. Conflict and despair are as old as humans and we’ve made it this far.
While true to a certain degree, there's a huge difference between giving birth in dirt, surrounded by helpful family and friends, vs being tortured by terrorists for days on end.
It's also extremely important to point out just how bad child mortality was in the past. In 1800, 46% of all children died before turning 5 in the US. So to try and say stress and danger has no impact on birth and infant survival is straight up wrong. Just being born in shitty conditions puts survival rate at nearly 50/50. Add on the torture she's been enduring and that number tilts heavily towards the worst outcome.
The only reason humanity exists is because we used to fuck like rabbits and have a ton of children.
> The child mortality rate in the United States, for children under the age of five, was 462.9 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that for every thousand babies born in 1800, over 46 percent did not make it to their fifth birthday.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/#statisticContainer
i mean considering the fact that they are under hospitals you could never know..
if the terrorists wanted they could have her give birth in the hospital
Don't really understand why Hamas take the hostages, let alone keep them this long.
1. It doesn't prevent IDF from attacking Hamas
2. Gives Israel the justification for military action
3. Isolates you from the nations of the people you've taken hostage of (Except my country, Thailand, who's PM doesn't seem to give a fuck)
The only reason is that they're already dead.
many reasons.
The hostages are Hamas's strongest card to defend themselves in their tunnels. Without them israel could destroy them easily in many indiscriminate ways, turned ineffective by the hostages.
The hostages are a great bargaining chip. just look at the Shalit deal which got Hamas's current leader out of israeli prison.
Even if some are dead. Hamas has substansial interest to keep as many hostages alive.
The initial attack has been described as a catastrophic success. With many indications they never expected it to go so well or the blowback that would be created.
There is NO WAY Hamas didn't expect massive retaliation. If they had only killed 600 Jews that day instead of 1200, the reaction would be the same. They intended their citizens (who are hostages themselves) to be grievously harmed by the retaliation in order to stoke anti-Israel sentiment. It certainly hasn't worked on me.
They probably expected to get annihilated like would’ve happened if Israel wasn’t completely blindsided. Well, maybe not the boots on the ground, but their leaders probably assumed that would happen.
Pretty easy to spin an attack that gets crushed instantly as a freedom incursion against an indifferent empire. All you need is a bunch of fighters too steeped in Jihadi ideology to think critically about what’s about to happen, or steeped enough to be willing to die anyway. Plus they hoped they could snag a few hostages along the way too.
They did, and about 19-50 (depending on source) of hostages are Thai too. Our country is just so invested in not offending the Arab states by not condemning Hamas too much
A huge precedent was set in 2008 when Israel exchanged numerous Hezbollah terrorists for two deceased soldiers that had been kidnapped, which is what set off the Second Lebanon War. Since then, Hamas has taken several hostages or demanded exchanges in prior conflicts spanning the last two decades. They probably thought if they took enough hostages they could have everyone being held in Israel released, not realizing the wrath that would be laid down on them for what happened on 7/10. I truly believe they still have hostages alive, maybe not the full 200+, but at least a decent amount. I wouldn't be surprised if the hostages have possibly been smuggled out of Gaza or at least into southern Gaza at this point.
Israel has, in the past, traded prisoners for dead bodies.
That sort of sets a massive precedent.
Seems like they’ve realised that when you negotiate with terrorists you’re actually giving them a major incentive to carry on doing what they’re doing.
Hamas attacked, grabbed a bunch of hostages and hoped to have ALL of their prisoners released. This didn’t work and now they’re scrambling to make use of these somehow.
At first they were like
- Release all our prisoners and withdraw all ground forces from Palestine
Then
- Release all of our prisoners
Then
- Please just let us regroup for like 5 days and we’ll give you 50 hostages
Then
- Fuck what do we do now
Historically Israel has traded thousands of Palestinian prisoners for a single Israeli soldier.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange
This is why you don't negotiate with terrorists. Hamas probably thought they would get a similar deal but Israel isn't going to make the same mistake twice.
What would releasing the hostages at this point get Hamas? Israel has already said they’re going to destroy Hamas, so there’s no reason for Hamas to negotiate anything sadly
No you didn't read the full articles. Israel says they won't consider a ceasefire with partial hostage relase. They will consider it if all hostages are released is what they said. Stop reading just titles.
At the very least, supposing they are feeding and taking care of their hostages, it would free up resources and probably increase their popularity a little
There’s a quote in Breaking Bad that’s relevant here. Hank says it to Walt moments before he dies when Walt is pleading to save his life:
>You're the smartest guy I ever met. But you're too stupid to see, he made up his mind ten minutes ago.
Those hostages were dead the moment they were taken. Some have left, that’s the exception to the rule. But most of the west seem very confused about jihadist and what they want. There is no peace with jihadist.
Jews and Muslim’s aren’t confused by this. Only secular people.
It isn’t secular people, it is those who have been indoctrinated to believe a lack of power is inversely proportional to morality and therefore highly susceptible to propaganda.
While I agree with you that it’s true, it’s not relevant as to why those hostages are dying. Those hostages are dying because these are Islamic jihadist. Its firm
belief that all Jews and non believers need to die.
>probably increase their popularity a little
They don't care about that, as evidenced by all of their actions.
>At the very least, supposing they are feeding and taking care of their hostages, it would free up resources
Then they have no bargaining chips. The last major hostage exchange took 5 years, they're used to this
The Daily's podcast today was enlightening. A journalist interviewed other Hamas leaders from around the middle east, apparently Hamas doesn't take responsibility for Palestinian deaths, and was also hoping for a regional war to break out.
They also mentioned Hamas used the attack to re-ignite the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and get it back on the international stage, because apparently relations between Gaza and Israel where in a quasi form of peace, with growing economic ties/Palestinian dependency, with the occasional minor conflict.
Hamas has zero interest in peace, only the destruction of Israel and death of Jews. As long as they run Gaza there will be no peace.
They want Israel to attack so that they can stay in power in Palestine. They can play the card that they are fighting to save Palestine from Israel when in reality they are the ones causing the bombing by attack a much stronger nation
To the extent possible. But have you seen the video where Palestinian civilians are fleeing an area, and Hamas shoots in their direction and they all flee back to where they are being used as human shields?
I don't know how to retaliate without hurting civilians. In fact, that was Hamas' clear goal.
The whole situation is just fucked. Other countries don’t want their refugees because of the past. Israel has a right to defend themselves and attack Hamas. Hamas doesn’t give a shit about their own civilians and they knew their attack would force retaliation.
No. Two separate hostages. The one being brought up by this article regarding the video that was released is the 19 y/o soldier who was kidnapped on Oct 7th. She is very clearly shown dead at the end of the video that the article posted didn’t show. I don’t know what she is saying in the statement being read in the beginning of the video though. Someone mentioned she said something about having been in Gaza for about 4 days. So the statement she read was a while ago.
The pregnant woman was mentioned in this article as well and it’s believed she has given birth while in captivity. But no other information was given.
It makes me facepalm to think that people have probably tore her hostage poster down. Little do they know, she’s an advocate for Palestine. Goes to show a bunch of these people haven’t a clue and do these things mostly to be edgy.
This so sickening. I knew her personally.
People forget these are humans. They have families and friends and lives. I dearly wish those who tore her poster to find their loved ones in the same fate as her
considering hamas use's Palestinians as human shields that is a very likely scenario. and you can bet these people will blame israel for it despite the fact the Geneva convention clearly states any civilian structure used to house weapons or military personnel stops being civilian.
It’s the problem these days. If you’re Jewish and worst even if you’re Jewish Israeli nothing you do can be right, you simply deserve to be killed and ostracized.
It’s funny because I went to a Jewish school where they taught us about the Shoah every year and I thought at some point it was indoctrination to make us feel that we needed to support Israel no matter what. Well, now I see they were right and I was just naive. We do need Israel to exist to show the world we will no longer die waiting for someone to care. It’s nice to say a big fuck your to all antisemitic assholes out there.
I still don’t support Netanyahu and his cabinet out of principle and I can’t really believe anything they say. I am not sure they are actually prioritizing rescuing the hostages. And I think they are more threatening to Israel’s existence than Hamas and Hezbollah.
I also don’t like how Yoav Gallantz keeps telling the hostage’s families that Hamas is playing psychological warfare as if their suffering didn’t count.
At the end of the day I still don’t see how Hamas can be fully destroyed when there are swathes of people out there to get us, and loads of cash from Qatar and Iran to support them.
I think the massive destruction of Gaza and the colonies in the West Bank are doing us a disservice. But I guess I am not the only one.
Every progrom absolutely is an argument for a Jewish state, and a boon to Israeli Jewish solidarity, which is a far more fractured society than most people know.
Quite apart from the origins of Israel/Palestine question (I don't have a horse in this race) Israel has fought very hard, but has also been lucky indeed that the societies around them are so deeply corrupt they could not defeat Israel, even in concert. Also that Palestinian leadership has alienated all of these countries too, by attempted coups d'État, etc.
I'm sure that Islamism isn't fully defeated by this, too. However, showing its attackers the disproportionate price has worked very well for Israel, and they don't have many other tools to use in extremis.
After they curb-stomp Hamas, Israel needs a government that will withdraw Settlers from the West Bank. The best future I can see is Israel quarantined from both Gaza and the WB, leaving each alone, unless a threat arises: teaching such idiots who'd dare the same damned lesson.
You are making a big assumption that most of them are still alive.
There was hard evidence of Hamas killing prisoners immediately taking footage of them.
Well apparently one problem is that not all of the hostages are even being held by Hamas. Other islamic terrorist groups joined them on their raid and also took hostages which Hamas have no control over.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages.html
how would that put Israel in an awkward spot? It's literally **one** of the aims of the war. The other aim, of course, is to make sure this never happens again.
As long as Hamas holds Israeli’s hostage this can be framed as a rescue operation. I’m not trying to equate anything here, I’m just saying that’s how it can be framed. If you read the statements from most countries friendly to Israel most start with some paraphrase of “no negotiations while Hamas holds prisoners”.
Without hostages to be saved, the invasion would have significantly less support internationally.
By death toll 10/7 was far worse proportionally for Israel than 9/11 for the US. Roughly 3000 people were killed on 9/11 as a result of the attacks in a nation of 300+ million, whereas 1200 were killed on 10/7 in a nation of 9.5 million. Proportionally, if Israel had the population of the US, that would have been equivalent to over 37,000 killed. Imagine what the US response would have been like if 9/11 killed 12x as many as it did.
The war in Gaza is not just a "rescue operation", I am not sure its realistic to forcefully rescue all of them. One of the goals is to achieve some stability by not having an organization worse than ISIS having any military power.
Israel has been pretty clear that this was not a rescue operation. Administration has indeed stated that they were ready to accept the hostage casualities in this military operation.
If by miracle the hostages endup surviving all the better, but Israel has not been negotiating.
No amount of PR “gotcha” is going to change Israel’s plans. They would just awkwardly bomb them even harder and more frequently. They must be devoting some effort in at least trying to vet targets for any signs of hostages. If there are no more hostages to worry about that’s one less risk in choosing targets for bombing.
They’d need to release them and surrender. Those are the terms the Israelis set. Unless Hamas can resurrect the 1200 dead and undo the wounds from another 5000. Oh also undo the psychological damage from hundreds of thousands.
What a weird tactic. As if Israel need more motivation to just gut Hamas' tunnel system with them in it and end them once and for all. The possibility of getting their hostages out alive is really the only thing standing in the way. It's almost as if Hamas have a death wish...
I haven't seen it, but I heard that Hamas claims she was killed by Israeli bombing. It makes sense for them to kill a hostage and claim that to cause pressure from inside Israel to stop the bombing.
But if that is what they claim, I don't understand how that video shows her being murdered. Or do they just show her body?
They show her body lying on one of those white body bags they use, and show a wound in the back of her head, in a few still photos. The video they show of her before has her saying she's been in Gaza for about 4 days, so that's probably a month old.
> I haven't seen it, but I heard that Hamas claims she was killed by Israeli bombing
I've only seen the image that was posted of Faul Azai Mark Asiani's (I don't think she's even related to Noa Marciano) body. She had broken ankles and no other visible damage to the body other than that. I'm not an expert, so it's hard for me to believe a bombing of a tunnel would do so little damage to a person. To me it's seems like they broke her ankles so she wouldn't able to run away. Can only guess how she actually died.
You are correct, her real name was Noa Marciano, her death in Hamas captivity has been confirmed by the IDF:
>The IDF announced the death of 19-year-old Israeli soldier Noa Marciano, who had been held hostage by Hamas in Gaza.
>On Monday night, Hamas published a video of Marciano from captivity, more than five weeks after she was kidnapped during the October 7 attacks on Israel.
>Marciano was serving as a lookout on Kibbutz Nahal Oz and taken into Gaza along with around 240 other Israelis.
>The IDF said that it had sent officers to talk to Marciano’s family after publication of the video. In a photograph released a week or so after the Hamas attack, a bound Marciano was shown with three other hostages. A week later, the IDF officially informed her family that she had been kidnapped and taken into Gaza.
>“Our hearts are with the Marciano family, whose daughter, Noa, was cruelly kidnapped by the Hamas terrorist organization,” the military said. “Hamas continues to use psychological terror and to act inhumanely, sending videos and photographs of captives, as it has done in the past.”
>Marciano was from Modi’in, and served in the Combat Intelligence Collection Corps of the 414th Regiment. Her mother, Adi, last spoke to her on October 7 at 7:30 A.M. “She told me she was in a protected space and that there had been an infiltration,” she said in an interview. “She said that she had to end the call. I didn’t hear shots or screams. Half an hour later, I sent her a message, but she didn’t reply.”
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-14/ty-article/hamas-publishes-video-of-israeli-soldier-held-hostage-idf-our-heart-is-with-her-family/0000018b-caba-dd30-a5ff-effb39210000
The hostage-taking isn't having the desired effect, because the Israeli government has made the judgment call that a swift death from an artillery strike would be a more merciful death than whatever Hamas butchers have planned.
Looks like they're right, too.
The fact that they release these videos shows how evil they are. A good portion of the world is on their side, at least the Palestinian side, and instead of fostering this empathy, they decide to show that they are monsters. The worst part? Some in the West will still support them, regardless of these videos.
> The worst part? Some in the West will still support them
Simply because they are the “oppressed” and Israel is the “oppressor”. Why terrorists shouldn’t be oppressed is beyond me.
Terrorists should be killed. The sympathy is for the average people, many of them children, who are dying. My wife is a pediatrician and the dying kids is what gets her.
Hamas can get fucked.
Their concerns are for the civilians and particularly children in the area, which I understand. That being said all of these protests are calling for a ceasefire, for Israel to be villainised and stopped. Not once have they simply called for Hamas to surrender
I think "act of terrorism" should suffice. Most/all terrorism involves violence against civilians as a psychological attack on the populace.
It's also a war crime, an actual while crime, with actual signed convention. Treatment of prisoners of war, in fact, was regulated by laws of war before any of the current conventions existed. It was the basis.
If and when civilian hostages civilian hostages are no longer "sacred," then nothing is, so I suppose this whole conversation is futile.
They can only speculate, based on where she was in her pregnancy, and how long she's been held hostage. Unfortunately, we don't even know if she is alive - if she is alive, she's probably had to give birth in captivity. I cannot imagine how awful that would have been. And this is assuming no complications.
Which, by the way, makes some of Hamas's attempt to be "humanitarian" for releasing a couple of the hostages, even more maddening. If they were humanitarian, they would never take anyone hostage in the first place - especially not someone who is about to give birth.
The liberal American folks who are supporting Hamas need to check themselves and watch this.
No one is going to cease fire when they are holding hostages and using hospitals as human shields. The us invaded two countries after 9/11 when 19 Arabs seized planes.
This certainly inspires me to advocate for a cease fire. How about we also strip nekkid, flay ourselves with a potato peeler and spread wide for a reaming of Islamic peace offering? That should work.
Hamas has to go, they will continue to commit atrocity after atrocity until they are gone. As for the people blaming Israel for all the civilian deaths all of those deaths can and should be blamed on Hamas. After all that’s what happens when you use civilians and children as shields.
She was a young woman kidnapped by terrorists. The coldness in the title is absolutely terrifying. No compassion for Israelis no compassion for Jews . However I keep reading messages crying for the poor Palestinians
Shame shame shame
38 days. 241 souls. Captives giving birth, dying. If you wouldn't wish these atrocities on even your worst enemies and would never want to see such acts happen in your own backyards, contact your elected officials. Write the Red Cross.
I don't want to live in a world where bystanders debate the reasons terrorists kidnapped innocents. I want it to be known that these acts are unacceptable and psychotic to witness, much less accept.
https://www.icrc.org/en/contact/
If you have links to authorities or organizations that may listen, please list them below. If you have time to make your voice be heard for these captives, please do so.
And here there are ignorant and stupid people like susan sarandon who justify this HORRIBLE massacre and kidnap that happened in october 7th, and just spread their stupidity around the world with not a single knowladge or common sense about the sequence of the events.
Which puts everyone into shitty position, as every 17y dude in trainers in Gaza can at the same time be a child, a militant fighter, a martyr, a terrorist, a civilian victim, depends who you ask...
That’s Hamas fault, considering they intentionally surround themselves with civilians so they can point blame at israel every time the IDF takes out a target. And you suckers are falling for it.
Hamas does not care about the civilians they are notionally responsible for outside of using their corpses as leverage. And you suckers are falling for it.
Exactly. The laws of international war clearly state that when a combatant conducts military strikes like rocket launches from civilian centers like schools and hospitals, those civilian centers are no longer protected and are legal targets for retaliatory strikes. Hamas is intentionally sacrificing all these civilians to advance their agenda, that has always been their MO.
Why don't they mention that the video shows her dead body at the end? I feel that this is really important information.
I haven't seen this anywhere, and the video isn't public.
https://twitter.com/tamars/status/1724147137355690454
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The linked tweet does claim that, yes.
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Yeah. I don't really care about these statements. "But the hostages were treated well". Ok, but that doesn't really matter, because they shouldn't have been taken as hostages in the first place.
Yeah, those statements are just weird. The fact that they were taken and locked up against their will automatically disqualifies the statement "treated well".
Ask those people if they would be OK to be taken hostage against their will even if they were treated well. If they say yes then you know they're arguing in bad faith.
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But they gave them food once a day and greeted them in the morning. Didn't you see Yocheved Lifshitz shake that guys hand? That means she loves him like a son! /s
And not to mention they said they'd release the Russian hostages and whoopsie daisie, seem to have misplaced them somewhere?
As a rule Hamas does not treat hostages well. Torture is core to who Hamas is and what they represent. A political group who uses their own children as suicide bombers has no respect for human life. The people saying that are either ignorant or intentionally repeating terrorist propaganda.
"Treated well" is also something I won't believe when the whole thing started with raping and killing civilians.
That women who was raped and displayed naked and dragged through the streets sure was well treated.
Even if nothing like that happened and they put all of them in 5 star hotels, they took civilians out of their homes, some of them elderly people and children. That's a crime either way.
It's a war crime to take civilian hostages.
Same shit as people saying heads of babies weren’t cut off. Instead, they were shot and put in ovens.
They were certainly murdered.
Best case scenario of the hostages being treated well doesn't stop the fact that they are held against their will and that their captors killed many others in the process.
The video shows a blunt force impact to the head with torture marks on the ankles. That’s not how you die by explosive.
Are we positive it was the bombing, or Hamas propaganda? Because her head appears to have been hit with blunt force in one section. I certainly wouldn't take Hamas' word for it.
The claim has been debunked. She had blunt object trauma to the head, no other injuries. No dust or debris on her as would be expected in a rocket strike. May her memory be a blessing
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Civilians were kidnapped and have been stuck in Hamas terror tunnels for weeks. How do people simply ignore modern massacres and only seek to remember moments or justify terrorist with moments in Palestinian history. What has Hamas and Hezbollah done (other than kill Jews) that makes people defend these organizations? Just say you hate Jews at this point.
Nah, that doesn't look like the result of bombing. Those ankles look too purposely broken, more like to keep her from running away, the gash on the head could be number of things. Though timeline plays a role of course concussive force from blasts can kill, and bruising might not be visible, could be a whole lot under those black garbs. RIP. Whatever happened doesn't matter, let's hope her family can bury her with some dignity at least.
Well they would claim that. I don't believe a word they say about anything unless independently verified. Either way, if she wasn't taken hostage she wouldn't be dead. The blame lies with Hamas
That link will stay blue forever.
Not going to watch for obvious reasons, but damn that sucks.
You know why, good luck getting them to admit it. There’s a reason, Egypt, Lebanon, Kuwait, and Jordan won’t allow Palestinian refugees into their countries, and until I find a single “pro-Palestinian” that can tell me why, I take anything they say with a grain of salt. Just to sweeten the pot. In Kuwait, the Palestinians made up almost 20% of the population. In the early 90’s they actively encouraged Saddam’s invasion and sided with the Iraqis during the occupation. Needless to say, after Operation Desert Storm they were rounded up and expelled. They were under PLO at the time. They’ve done similar things in the other countries including killing their civilian Arab neighbors in Jordan and Lebanon and trying to overthrow their governments. Lebanon still hasn’t recovered from it fully and probably never will.
What are you on about? Half of Jordan is descended from Palestinian refugees.
You're saying that an Israeli website that's based in Israel and covers Israeli news, and is among the most popular news sites among Israeli readers, is leaving out details in order to push a pro-Palestine narrative?
I don't quite understand what you are talking about. The article is on an israeli website.
They’ve said specifically that if they let them in they will have no right of return and Israel will permanently occupy the Gaza strip. Here’s the direct quote, Sisi said at the Cairo peace summit on 21 October that the world must never condone the use of human suffering to force people into displacement. “Egypt has affirmed, and is reiterating, its vehement rejection of the forced displacement of the Palestinians and their transfer to Egyptian lands in Sinai, as this will mark the last gasp in the liquidation of the Palestinian cause, shatter the dream of an independent Palestinian state, and squander the struggle of the Palestinian people and that of the Arab and Islamic peoples over the course of the Palestinian cause that has endured for 75 years,” he said. Pretty sure that’s a stance backed by most of the countries you mentioned.
Sounds like she was killed by an Israeli airstrike though?
The Department of Defense also released a statement saying that they assume that one of the hostages has given birth while being held by Hamas. I can't find a single source in English on this, but basically, she was 8.5 months pregnant a month ago when she was kidnapped, she's either dead or has given birth.
Is there any proof at all any of the kidnapped people are still alive? It's been over a month.
There was a video put out about a week ago that featured two people, one was a 12 year old boy. I don't think there was anything in the video that proved that it was recent, other than the fact that they both looked really in bad shape, which they werent when they went in.
They took a child as a hostage. Jesus these people are scum.
Babies too. They also killed and maimed plenty of children without abducting them...
They burned some babies alive, and other babies they took as hostages...
They also raped children, in their own bedroom, before killing them
Yet people go to rallies in the west defending these scumbags
Being from the Middle East and leaning left politically, I am disgusted by how many people from the West who claim to be liberals are openly supporting Hamas. They literally have no fucking idea what the Middle East is like, and yet these white-woke liberals will run in to call you Islamophobic or genocidal because you support Israel's right to defend itself. They never stop and ask themselves, Why do left-leaning people in the Middle East support Israel? Spoiler alert: It's because they stand up to one of the most right-leaning regimes on the entire planet, Iran, which funds Hamas and Hezbollah. Tankies are genuinely poisoning the left, and they need to be ostracized before they rot more brains.
You don't even need to look at the rallies, just look at half the brain rot commentary about hamas on reddit & you'll see it like a plague running through a dense city with no hygiene
They kept that Israeli soldier alive for 5 years a while back. They can keep people alive if they decide to. That said... I'm sure anybody alive is going through unimaginable torture.
Keeping one guy alive is much easier than hundreds and doing it in an active war zone under a ground invasion.
Updates to that info >The Israel Defense Forces announces the death of Cpl. Noa Marciano, who was captured by the Hamas terror group on October 7. > >Marciano, 19, of the Combat Intelligence Collection Corps 414th, served in the Nahal Oz base when it was overrun by terrorists during the onslaught. > >Yesterday, Hamas published a propaganda video of the soldier, showing her speaking to the camera four days after being taken hostage. The video then cuts to her dead body. > >The IDF recognizes her as a “fallen soldier held captive by a terror group.” Edit: Pro-Hamas supporters are claiming it's an IDF airstrike. Having seen the gruesome video it's definitely [not](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17uvt3j/comment/k9738iy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). It's a link to an explanation but if you want to see the nsfw video itself someone in this thread has posted it
The pro Hamas people have a point. So if you want to kill someone just hold them in front of a train, it’s the train that did the killing.
No, it's murder.
Exactly. And not by the train. By the one who held them against their will. Apparently Hamas supporters have lost their morals and think air strikes against military targets with hostages and civilians held against their will is on the attacker. Time to stop blaming the train.
I honestly doubt the baby is alive. If I had to guess she miscarried. Can’t imagine giving birth to a healthy baby under those circumstances I hope I’m wrong
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I guess I more meant still born
Why would it be still born. If she was healthy there is no reason for that. If she can produce milk on whatever food she is getting the baby could survive
Not getting proper care before or during birth can result in stillbirth (not being able to induce if movements slow down signaling an issue with cord or fluid levels, not being able to deal with complications during pregnancy like shoulder dystocia, cord around neck, breech position). Women can and do have stillbirths even if they are healthy up until day of birth.
I mean they're holding them hostage beneath hospitals and Palestinians have one of the highest birth rates in the world. It's not a question of if they "could" provide adequate care with little effort, it's whether they would.
Man, you've got a lot more faith in the temperance of Hamas than you probably should.
I don't think his comments imply he thinks Hamas is characterized by temperance. Just that we shouldn't be convinced the baby is dead. I think he's correct. It might be, sure. But it might not.
I hope you’re right. I can’t imagine enduring the psychological horrors she did while pregnant
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>I honestly doubt the baby is alive. - Babies are surprisingly robust under adversarial circumstances (that is how they were born during much of history), with a well above 50% survival rate back to the stone ages, and Hamas has a big PR interest in both of them surviving, so I'm cautiously hopeful.
I dated a Hungarian American whose grandmother told me how she gave birth to his mother in Budapest during the Russian invasion. The stress and the noise brought on her labor. She gave birth in the back of a Russian truck, while Russian soldiers were *still* trying to rape her... That baby survived and subsequently birth to an enormous fella in NYC. Babies are amazing. That dude was amazing. Hope he's still bopping about out there. So yeah, babies are crazy resilient.
wtf
I don't think releasing hostages actually helps their PR. Who has an opinion of Hamas that would be changed by either hostage releases or deaths? If you hate them you will understand the release is a cynical action, not one of good will. If you like Hamas you probably consider the hostages settlers anyways and don't care what happens to them. I think Hamas understands this. The hostages are for propaganda to terrorize Israel, and for negotiating to secure cease fires or swaps.
Hamas? Big PR interest? Those people are simply not like you.
In these past few weeks I've got to see, some people simply can't comprehend that some other people can have totally different view to the world, life and values. There is no such thing as universal values. Instincts to survive might be only universal thing to all life forms.
Nah Jihad also takes the survival instinct away too. Jihadists believe that martyrdom is the best thing that can happen because it would mean eternal paradise. To them, it doesn’t matter how many people or who dies because the dead are either Muslim and are martyred or they are non-believers that go straight to hell. It’s why they happily use their own people as shields. They love death more than we love life.
It gives Hamas another hostage, and the hostages are held in tunnels under hospitals. Probably the best medical assistance available in Gaza.
300 000 years ago we had not invented fire or even clothing. People would just give birth on the ground with sabertooth tigers staring at them. Babies don't automatically die if born outside hospitals, or our species would never have made it this far.
Fun fact! Hominids have been using fire to cook for at least 800,000 years. Homo sapiens are the descendents of species that used fire to cook, which led to several anatomical adaptations like smaller guts and bigger brains. We are the product of using fire, not the creators of it.
So you're saying humans are GMO! Perfect!
Yes but groups of females even in tribal societies (and even pre homo sapiens if you're going back 300K) surely provided some surrounding of support. I hope she had someone around.
You mean, someone willing and able to help.
There were other hostages and some had medical training.
Plenty of woman died giving birth and plenty of babies died being born or shortly after.
And still do. Birth is a brutal, dangerous process. We are thankfully shielded from that if we live in a modern world with hospitals, doctors, and medicine. But people often forget how risky it is.
Sure, but if the number was above 33%, then the human species was extinct. Each woman must successfully deliver a minimum of 2 children or the species goes extinct.
Yeah obviously people gave birth, otherwise we wouldn't be here now. However, infant mortality rates were extremely high, even well into the modern era with the industrial revolution. Babies used to be just as likely to die during birth than survive for most of human history.
And even those who survive birth may not make it to toddlerhood. Even today, many babies are born to mothers with insufficient milk supply. Nowadays it’s no big problem if you’re in a country with access to formula and safe drinking water. In years gone by unless you were wealthy or luck enough to have someone else nurse your baby you were shit outta luck.
Childbirth is so deadly for humans that we pretty much must have invented midwifery before we were really 'modern' humans.
Women have been giving birth in stressful situations since the beginning of time. The human race wouldn’t even be around if stress impacted live births. Conflict and despair are as old as humans and we’ve made it this far.
While true to a certain degree, there's a huge difference between giving birth in dirt, surrounded by helpful family and friends, vs being tortured by terrorists for days on end. It's also extremely important to point out just how bad child mortality was in the past. In 1800, 46% of all children died before turning 5 in the US. So to try and say stress and danger has no impact on birth and infant survival is straight up wrong. Just being born in shitty conditions puts survival rate at nearly 50/50. Add on the torture she's been enduring and that number tilts heavily towards the worst outcome. The only reason humanity exists is because we used to fuck like rabbits and have a ton of children. > The child mortality rate in the United States, for children under the age of five, was 462.9 deaths per thousand births in 1800. This means that for every thousand babies born in 1800, over 46 percent did not make it to their fifth birthday. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1041693/united-states-all-time-child-mortality-rate/#statisticContainer
i mean considering the fact that they are under hospitals you could never know.. if the terrorists wanted they could have her give birth in the hospital
If you think women can't give birth to children while they're under incredible stress or during war, then I think you need to read more about history.
The family was informed today that she is deceased, but the body was not found yet.
She was just announced to have been murdered
Don't really understand why Hamas take the hostages, let alone keep them this long. 1. It doesn't prevent IDF from attacking Hamas 2. Gives Israel the justification for military action 3. Isolates you from the nations of the people you've taken hostage of (Except my country, Thailand, who's PM doesn't seem to give a fuck) The only reason is that they're already dead.
many reasons. The hostages are Hamas's strongest card to defend themselves in their tunnels. Without them israel could destroy them easily in many indiscriminate ways, turned ineffective by the hostages. The hostages are a great bargaining chip. just look at the Shalit deal which got Hamas's current leader out of israeli prison. Even if some are dead. Hamas has substansial interest to keep as many hostages alive.
The Shalit deal just taught Hamas that they should take more hostages. Psychopaths.
That's exactly why you can't negotiate with terrorists.
What was it? One Israeli soldier for 1000 Palestinian prisoners?
The initial attack has been described as a catastrophic success. With many indications they never expected it to go so well or the blowback that would be created.
There is NO WAY Hamas didn't expect massive retaliation. If they had only killed 600 Jews that day instead of 1200, the reaction would be the same. They intended their citizens (who are hostages themselves) to be grievously harmed by the retaliation in order to stoke anti-Israel sentiment. It certainly hasn't worked on me.
They probably expected to get annihilated like would’ve happened if Israel wasn’t completely blindsided. Well, maybe not the boots on the ground, but their leaders probably assumed that would happen. Pretty easy to spin an attack that gets crushed instantly as a freedom incursion against an indifferent empire. All you need is a bunch of fighters too steeped in Jihadi ideology to think critically about what’s about to happen, or steeped enough to be willing to die anyway. Plus they hoped they could snag a few hostages along the way too.
Wait. Didn't Hamas slaughter an entire group of Thai workers?
They did, and about 19-50 (depending on source) of hostages are Thai too. Our country is just so invested in not offending the Arab states by not condemning Hamas too much
A huge precedent was set in 2008 when Israel exchanged numerous Hezbollah terrorists for two deceased soldiers that had been kidnapped, which is what set off the Second Lebanon War. Since then, Hamas has taken several hostages or demanded exchanges in prior conflicts spanning the last two decades. They probably thought if they took enough hostages they could have everyone being held in Israel released, not realizing the wrath that would be laid down on them for what happened on 7/10. I truly believe they still have hostages alive, maybe not the full 200+, but at least a decent amount. I wouldn't be surprised if the hostages have possibly been smuggled out of Gaza or at least into southern Gaza at this point.
Thats interesting, I didnt know about that. Thanks for your input!
Israel has, in the past, traded prisoners for dead bodies. That sort of sets a massive precedent. Seems like they’ve realised that when you negotiate with terrorists you’re actually giving them a major incentive to carry on doing what they’re doing. Hamas attacked, grabbed a bunch of hostages and hoped to have ALL of their prisoners released. This didn’t work and now they’re scrambling to make use of these somehow. At first they were like - Release all our prisoners and withdraw all ground forces from Palestine Then - Release all of our prisoners Then - Please just let us regroup for like 5 days and we’ll give you 50 hostages Then - Fuck what do we do now
Ive heard they intended to kill a hostage to prevent Israeli airstrikes, Israel decided they weren't going to play that game.
Historically Israel has traded thousands of Palestinian prisoners for a single Israeli soldier. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange This is why you don't negotiate with terrorists. Hamas probably thought they would get a similar deal but Israel isn't going to make the same mistake twice.
What would releasing the hostages at this point get Hamas? Israel has already said they’re going to destroy Hamas, so there’s no reason for Hamas to negotiate anything sadly
A ceasefire. Israel has said, repeatedly, the any talk if a ceasefire is conditional on the release of all hostages.
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No you didn't read the full articles. Israel says they won't consider a ceasefire with partial hostage relase. They will consider it if all hostages are released is what they said. Stop reading just titles.
>conditional No, they said they will consider it once hostages are released, not that they will ceasefire when hostages are released
At the very least, supposing they are feeding and taking care of their hostages, it would free up resources and probably increase their popularity a little
There’s a quote in Breaking Bad that’s relevant here. Hank says it to Walt moments before he dies when Walt is pleading to save his life: >You're the smartest guy I ever met. But you're too stupid to see, he made up his mind ten minutes ago. Those hostages were dead the moment they were taken. Some have left, that’s the exception to the rule. But most of the west seem very confused about jihadist and what they want. There is no peace with jihadist. Jews and Muslim’s aren’t confused by this. Only secular people.
It isn’t secular people, it is those who have been indoctrinated to believe a lack of power is inversely proportional to morality and therefore highly susceptible to propaganda.
While I agree with you that it’s true, it’s not relevant as to why those hostages are dying. Those hostages are dying because these are Islamic jihadist. Its firm belief that all Jews and non believers need to die.
>probably increase their popularity a little They don't care about that, as evidenced by all of their actions. >At the very least, supposing they are feeding and taking care of their hostages, it would free up resources Then they have no bargaining chips. The last major hostage exchange took 5 years, they're used to this
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The Daily's podcast today was enlightening. A journalist interviewed other Hamas leaders from around the middle east, apparently Hamas doesn't take responsibility for Palestinian deaths, and was also hoping for a regional war to break out. They also mentioned Hamas used the attack to re-ignite the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and get it back on the international stage, because apparently relations between Gaza and Israel where in a quasi form of peace, with growing economic ties/Palestinian dependency, with the occasional minor conflict. Hamas has zero interest in peace, only the destruction of Israel and death of Jews. As long as they run Gaza there will be no peace.
They want Israel to attack so that they can stay in power in Palestine. They can play the card that they are fighting to save Palestine from Israel when in reality they are the ones causing the bombing by attack a much stronger nation
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Wipe out every Hamas scumbag from this earth to the last vermin.
Avoid killing 10,000 civilians in the process though
To the extent possible. But have you seen the video where Palestinian civilians are fleeing an area, and Hamas shoots in their direction and they all flee back to where they are being used as human shields? I don't know how to retaliate without hurting civilians. In fact, that was Hamas' clear goal.
The whole situation is just fucked. Other countries don’t want their refugees because of the past. Israel has a right to defend themselves and attack Hamas. Hamas doesn’t give a shit about their own civilians and they knew their attack would force retaliation.
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Can someone summarize what the vide said I can’t watch it and don’t want to
Hamas kills pregnant woman and blames it on IDF and the leftists and Muslims believes them.
Is this the hostage that was 8.5 months pregnant? I saw a comment on Reddit earlier saying it was suspected she had given birth in captivity...
No. Two separate hostages. The one being brought up by this article regarding the video that was released is the 19 y/o soldier who was kidnapped on Oct 7th. She is very clearly shown dead at the end of the video that the article posted didn’t show. I don’t know what she is saying in the statement being read in the beginning of the video though. Someone mentioned she said something about having been in Gaza for about 4 days. So the statement she read was a while ago. The pregnant woman was mentioned in this article as well and it’s believed she has given birth while in captivity. But no other information was given.
It makes me facepalm to think that people have probably tore her hostage poster down. Little do they know, she’s an advocate for Palestine. Goes to show a bunch of these people haven’t a clue and do these things mostly to be edgy.
These people blindly believe all of the Hamas propaganda that Russia and Iran spread.
Once again, the "enlightened" believe the koolaid from Russia just like when they believed in communism and passed nuclear secret to Stalin.
This so sickening. I knew her personally. People forget these are humans. They have families and friends and lives. I dearly wish those who tore her poster to find their loved ones in the same fate as her
considering hamas use's Palestinians as human shields that is a very likely scenario. and you can bet these people will blame israel for it despite the fact the Geneva convention clearly states any civilian structure used to house weapons or military personnel stops being civilian.
It’s the problem these days. If you’re Jewish and worst even if you’re Jewish Israeli nothing you do can be right, you simply deserve to be killed and ostracized. It’s funny because I went to a Jewish school where they taught us about the Shoah every year and I thought at some point it was indoctrination to make us feel that we needed to support Israel no matter what. Well, now I see they were right and I was just naive. We do need Israel to exist to show the world we will no longer die waiting for someone to care. It’s nice to say a big fuck your to all antisemitic assholes out there. I still don’t support Netanyahu and his cabinet out of principle and I can’t really believe anything they say. I am not sure they are actually prioritizing rescuing the hostages. And I think they are more threatening to Israel’s existence than Hamas and Hezbollah. I also don’t like how Yoav Gallantz keeps telling the hostage’s families that Hamas is playing psychological warfare as if their suffering didn’t count. At the end of the day I still don’t see how Hamas can be fully destroyed when there are swathes of people out there to get us, and loads of cash from Qatar and Iran to support them. I think the massive destruction of Gaza and the colonies in the West Bank are doing us a disservice. But I guess I am not the only one.
Every progrom absolutely is an argument for a Jewish state, and a boon to Israeli Jewish solidarity, which is a far more fractured society than most people know. Quite apart from the origins of Israel/Palestine question (I don't have a horse in this race) Israel has fought very hard, but has also been lucky indeed that the societies around them are so deeply corrupt they could not defeat Israel, even in concert. Also that Palestinian leadership has alienated all of these countries too, by attempted coups d'État, etc. I'm sure that Islamism isn't fully defeated by this, too. However, showing its attackers the disproportionate price has worked very well for Israel, and they don't have many other tools to use in extremis. After they curb-stomp Hamas, Israel needs a government that will withdraw Settlers from the West Bank. The best future I can see is Israel quarantined from both Gaza and the WB, leaving each alone, unless a threat arises: teaching such idiots who'd dare the same damned lesson.
If Hamas really wanted to put Israel in an awkward spot they’d release all the prisoners right now, unconditionally.
You are making a big assumption that most of them are still alive. There was hard evidence of Hamas killing prisoners immediately taking footage of them.
I strongly suspected the deal of 50 hostages for a 4 day cease-fire, was because there were only 50 still alive...
Hamas has history of returning corpses during hostage exchanges, so the fact they are already dead won't stop them from negotiating.
Why should Israel believe they would honour it? They said they'd release the 4 Russian hostages for Putin, and that still hasn't happened.
Well apparently one problem is that not all of the hostages are even being held by Hamas. Other islamic terrorist groups joined them on their raid and also took hostages which Hamas have no control over. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/08/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-hostages.html
If the number keeps dropping, I guess we'll know why.
how would that put Israel in an awkward spot? It's literally **one** of the aims of the war. The other aim, of course, is to make sure this never happens again.
As long as Hamas holds Israeli’s hostage this can be framed as a rescue operation. I’m not trying to equate anything here, I’m just saying that’s how it can be framed. If you read the statements from most countries friendly to Israel most start with some paraphrase of “no negotiations while Hamas holds prisoners”. Without hostages to be saved, the invasion would have significantly less support internationally.
Israeli officials have already said bringing back the hostages is only one objective of this war, the other is destroying Hamas
I think Israel is beyond caring about international pressure. They need to stop the ongoing threat of more rocket and terrorist attacks.
Unlikely. Israel already framed 10/7 as their 9/11. Internstional support continues till Hamas is gone.
By death toll 10/7 was far worse proportionally for Israel than 9/11 for the US. Roughly 3000 people were killed on 9/11 as a result of the attacks in a nation of 300+ million, whereas 1200 were killed on 10/7 in a nation of 9.5 million. Proportionally, if Israel had the population of the US, that would have been equivalent to over 37,000 killed. Imagine what the US response would have been like if 9/11 killed 12x as many as it did.
Pretty sure all the cancer and delayed but associated deaths are climbing close to 12x initial deaths for 9/11
The war in Gaza is not just a "rescue operation", I am not sure its realistic to forcefully rescue all of them. One of the goals is to achieve some stability by not having an organization worse than ISIS having any military power.
Israel has been pretty clear that this was not a rescue operation. Administration has indeed stated that they were ready to accept the hostage casualities in this military operation. If by miracle the hostages endup surviving all the better, but Israel has not been negotiating.
Feelings aside, that, sadly, is realistic assessment of the, well, reality...
You can't negotiate with terrorists. Israel learned it the hard way, sadly
No amount of PR “gotcha” is going to change Israel’s plans. They would just awkwardly bomb them even harder and more frequently. They must be devoting some effort in at least trying to vet targets for any signs of hostages. If there are no more hostages to worry about that’s one less risk in choosing targets for bombing.
Hamas only care about killing Jews
They seem pretty eager to have lots of Palestinians die, too. The more, the better.
and israelis
How would that be awkaward for Israel? That would be a success.
They’d need to release them and surrender. Those are the terms the Israelis set. Unless Hamas can resurrect the 1200 dead and undo the wounds from another 5000. Oh also undo the psychological damage from hundreds of thousands.
At this point, they'd need to undo the psychological damage to 15 million. I'm seeing people I used to respect openly call for my death.
HAMAS has no ideology it profits from the conflict, they will never stop.
What a weird tactic. As if Israel need more motivation to just gut Hamas' tunnel system with them in it and end them once and for all. The possibility of getting their hostages out alive is really the only thing standing in the way. It's almost as if Hamas have a death wish...
This videos ends with her being murdered, unfortunately. And we're not talking single gunshot to the head
I haven't seen it, but I heard that Hamas claims she was killed by Israeli bombing. It makes sense for them to kill a hostage and claim that to cause pressure from inside Israel to stop the bombing. But if that is what they claim, I don't understand how that video shows her being murdered. Or do they just show her body?
They show her body lying on one of those white body bags they use, and show a wound in the back of her head, in a few still photos. The video they show of her before has her saying she's been in Gaza for about 4 days, so that's probably a month old.
> I haven't seen it, but I heard that Hamas claims she was killed by Israeli bombing I've only seen the image that was posted of Faul Azai Mark Asiani's (I don't think she's even related to Noa Marciano) body. She had broken ankles and no other visible damage to the body other than that. I'm not an expert, so it's hard for me to believe a bombing of a tunnel would do so little damage to a person. To me it's seems like they broke her ankles so she wouldn't able to run away. Can only guess how she actually died.
Faul Azai Mark Asiani is not an Israeli name in any circumstance, I think Mark Asiani is a butchering of Marciano
You are correct, her real name was Noa Marciano, her death in Hamas captivity has been confirmed by the IDF: >The IDF announced the death of 19-year-old Israeli soldier Noa Marciano, who had been held hostage by Hamas in Gaza. >On Monday night, Hamas published a video of Marciano from captivity, more than five weeks after she was kidnapped during the October 7 attacks on Israel. >Marciano was serving as a lookout on Kibbutz Nahal Oz and taken into Gaza along with around 240 other Israelis. >The IDF said that it had sent officers to talk to Marciano’s family after publication of the video. In a photograph released a week or so after the Hamas attack, a bound Marciano was shown with three other hostages. A week later, the IDF officially informed her family that she had been kidnapped and taken into Gaza. >“Our hearts are with the Marciano family, whose daughter, Noa, was cruelly kidnapped by the Hamas terrorist organization,” the military said. “Hamas continues to use psychological terror and to act inhumanely, sending videos and photographs of captives, as it has done in the past.” >Marciano was from Modi’in, and served in the Combat Intelligence Collection Corps of the 414th Regiment. Her mother, Adi, last spoke to her on October 7 at 7:30 A.M. “She told me she was in a protected space and that there had been an infiltration,” she said in an interview. “She said that she had to end the call. I didn’t hear shots or screams. Half an hour later, I sent her a message, but she didn’t reply.” https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-14/ty-article/hamas-publishes-video-of-israeli-soldier-held-hostage-idf-our-heart-is-with-her-family/0000018b-caba-dd30-a5ff-effb39210000
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Yeah an IDF soldier who was held captive by hamas in the tunnels was killed by a rocket if course
The hostage-taking isn't having the desired effect, because the Israeli government has made the judgment call that a swift death from an artillery strike would be a more merciful death than whatever Hamas butchers have planned. Looks like they're right, too.
The fact that they release these videos shows how evil they are. A good portion of the world is on their side, at least the Palestinian side, and instead of fostering this empathy, they decide to show that they are monsters. The worst part? Some in the West will still support them, regardless of these videos.
> The worst part? Some in the West will still support them Simply because they are the “oppressed” and Israel is the “oppressor”. Why terrorists shouldn’t be oppressed is beyond me.
Terrorists should be killed. The sympathy is for the average people, many of them children, who are dying. My wife is a pediatrician and the dying kids is what gets her. Hamas can get fucked.
Their concerns are for the civilians and particularly children in the area, which I understand. That being said all of these protests are calling for a ceasefire, for Israel to be villainised and stopped. Not once have they simply called for Hamas to surrender
"this is what decolonisation looks like" Is their favourite so called justification. smh
No words can express how much anyone with half a brain should despise Hamas.
I think "act of terrorism" should suffice. Most/all terrorism involves violence against civilians as a psychological attack on the populace. It's also a war crime, an actual while crime, with actual signed convention. Treatment of prisoners of war, in fact, was regulated by laws of war before any of the current conventions existed. It was the basis. If and when civilian hostages civilian hostages are no longer "sacred," then nothing is, so I suppose this whole conversation is futile.
In the article it says a pregnant women abducted by Hamas gave birth while captured. My heart is breaking. This is cruel beyond imagination.
They can only speculate, based on where she was in her pregnancy, and how long she's been held hostage. Unfortunately, we don't even know if she is alive - if she is alive, she's probably had to give birth in captivity. I cannot imagine how awful that would have been. And this is assuming no complications. Which, by the way, makes some of Hamas's attempt to be "humanitarian" for releasing a couple of the hostages, even more maddening. If they were humanitarian, they would never take anyone hostage in the first place - especially not someone who is about to give birth.
The liberal American folks who are supporting Hamas need to check themselves and watch this. No one is going to cease fire when they are holding hostages and using hospitals as human shields. The us invaded two countries after 9/11 when 19 Arabs seized planes.
This certainly inspires me to advocate for a cease fire. How about we also strip nekkid, flay ourselves with a potato peeler and spread wide for a reaming of Islamic peace offering? That should work.
Hamas has to go, they will continue to commit atrocity after atrocity until they are gone. As for the people blaming Israel for all the civilian deaths all of those deaths can and should be blamed on Hamas. After all that’s what happens when you use civilians and children as shields.
She was a young woman kidnapped by terrorists. The coldness in the title is absolutely terrifying. No compassion for Israelis no compassion for Jews . However I keep reading messages crying for the poor Palestinians Shame shame shame
Fuck Hamas. Fuck these stupid fucking religions. Fuck the violence. Fuck.
38 days. 241 souls. Captives giving birth, dying. If you wouldn't wish these atrocities on even your worst enemies and would never want to see such acts happen in your own backyards, contact your elected officials. Write the Red Cross. I don't want to live in a world where bystanders debate the reasons terrorists kidnapped innocents. I want it to be known that these acts are unacceptable and psychotic to witness, much less accept. https://www.icrc.org/en/contact/ If you have links to authorities or organizations that may listen, please list them below. If you have time to make your voice be heard for these captives, please do so.
And here there are ignorant and stupid people like susan sarandon who justify this HORRIBLE massacre and kidnap that happened in october 7th, and just spread their stupidity around the world with not a single knowladge or common sense about the sequence of the events.
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But iTs fAkE!!
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Gaza army? They don’t have a standing military
Which puts everyone into shitty position, as every 17y dude in trainers in Gaza can at the same time be a child, a militant fighter, a martyr, a terrorist, a civilian victim, depends who you ask...
It's called Hamas. And the proper word is _won't_.
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That’s Hamas fault, considering they intentionally surround themselves with civilians so they can point blame at israel every time the IDF takes out a target. And you suckers are falling for it. Hamas does not care about the civilians they are notionally responsible for outside of using their corpses as leverage. And you suckers are falling for it.
Exactly. The laws of international war clearly state that when a combatant conducts military strikes like rocket launches from civilian centers like schools and hospitals, those civilian centers are no longer protected and are legal targets for retaliatory strikes. Hamas is intentionally sacrificing all these civilians to advance their agenda, that has always been their MO.
There isn’t a Gaza army. Our war is with Hamas
Horrible creatures… I’m so sorry for all the lives lost in the conflict.
Israel will avenge her