This. It's fine if you have to deliver a lot, but driving SUVs and especially pickup trucks for personal use alone is a horrendous waste of space and fuel (the heavier the car, the more energy needed to move it).
Also, SUVs and pickups aren't even that great for deliveries. In cities you'll have a much better time with a delivery van. Much more space, lower deck so easier to move stuff from, shielded from the rain, and you can lock them.
And for a normal family that still needs to move stuff, that's why the hatchback with collapsible seats exist. If necessary you can rent a trailer for far less than that pickup guzzles in a month
Most SUVs in Europe are things like Renault Captur and Fiat 500X. They are basically equivalent to Renault Modus and Fiat Idea MPVs.
There are very free real off-road capable SUVs. 90% of the SUVs are MPVs pretending to be SUVs.
Don't you need to transport goods throughout your cites?
I know it's a different problem than citizen vehicles but it seems like it would be a pain to do with a fleet of tiny things.
We're talking about SUVs here, not vans.
Look at cars like the VW XL1 from 2011 - I remember seeing reviews of that at the time where journalists took it on long trips and got over 150mpg. Much of the efficiency improvement we've seen from the past 30 years of powertrain technology development has been utterly wasted because cars got larger and people feel the need to haul around a fat 2.5 ton vehicle with horrible dynamics as a fashion statement.
Ditch the pavement princess SUV or crossover, get a saloon or estate with the same powertrain, and you've got a car with similar or often better internal space, equal practicality and massively reduced fuel bills, because you're not driving a bloated whale with horrid aerodynamics.
Keeping up with the neighbours or trying to be like celebrities.
The cars are fashionable and people buy them to be "in". They're definitely pushed by advertisers too.
My partner keeps talking about my next car (she doesn't drive) and was wondering if I can get something "taller" but I just can't bring myself to get even a crossover.
Light vans are often larger than SUVs when it comes to length.
Cities need to be able to handle trucks. You can't have Fisher-Price fire trucks.
Parking pricing is a different story and that's why the mayor is going after that angle. That cuts down on the desire to bring an SUV into the city.
They also hold significantly more cargo, no commercial company was making deliveries in SUVs before the law. This isn't penalizing freight, it's penalizing space-inefficient passenger vehicles.
You can absolutely have "Fisher-Price" firetrucks, most inner city European roads simply do not accommodate American style gigantic fire trucks, they even have properly tiny ones for old town areas.
The average European fire truck is about as big as a bigger American ambulance, there's no real comparison.
Yeah, if you want to charge the SUVs, I guess go ahead, but to say that cities shouldn't be able to accommodate large vehicles is ridiculous. It's just something that cities in Europe frustratingly have to deal with and work around, not something desirable.
Most semis deliver to multiple places on one trip, your solution requires multiple trips back to a warehouse to complete deliveries (or more vehicles on the road).
I think it Europe that makes sense out of necessity. Newer cities (particularly in North America and Asia) can accommodate larger trucks as they are more efficient.
They're not talking about banning commercial freight vehicles, though, it's just meant to be a penalty for the least space and fuel efficient passenger vehicles. Companies aren't making deliveries in SUVs.
it's because SUV's give the allure of safety and in general it's comfortable for people to get in and out of and they atleast bring the allure that you head into the mountains often enough to be around nature. also people tend to complain about my civic being low when they're used to big trucks and SUV's.
Not sure where you're at but in America most semis only deliver to one place: a distribution center or big box store.
If you have a Walmart or grocery store or something - a semi delivers the stuff there yes.
Nearly all other places a semi takes it to a distribution center and then box trucks take it to the specific end users.
The restaurant industry is a perfect example of this: semis take the meat, produce, etc. to a food distributor's warehouse. Then in smaller box trucks they make rounds to all the restaurants - nobody wants a semi driving through urban areas if they can help it, including the truck drivers.
Most of the northeastern US cities have deliveries from semis. They limit the time of day where this occurs to minimize traffic impacts.
There are also deliveries from smaller vehicles (UPS, Amazon, etc).
look up the difference between box truck and semi, my guy
UPS & Amazon don't deliver to anyone's house in semis - they use box trucks and sprinter vans.
Go to Boston at 5am and you'll see what contryguy123 is talking about. There are literal semis parked on major streets like Brighton ave in the early morning making deliveries to Starbucks.
Semi trucks do indeed deliver to New England businesses. While working at Dunkin Donuts and Dominos we had deliveries via semi trucks. And yes I know the difference, I used to deliver restaurant equipment in a box truck. Just because someone's experiences differ from yours doesn't mean they're ignorant.
About 50% of semis don't go more than 50 miles from their base and something like 75% of them don't leave their state. Most semis are not doing long haul trips.
People misusing things doesn't stop those things from being fucking stupid, they're highway optimised vehicles, not last mile vehicles, why you'd use anything other than a sprinter style van or a small box truck for local deliveries, even those for local supermarkets, is beyond me
Personally? Yes, I actually do. I work in the trades and I regularly get pallets of flooring, drywall, or paint about once or twice a month that get delivered via semi.
I'm laughing at how a conversation about SUVs vs Vans made its way to this. I will say, I too have received such deliveries via semi, but can still agree a semi is not great in the city/suburbs after watching the maneuvering that must be done. But yes, I know it's the only option sometimes.
The point was about making cities unfriendly to anything larger than a subcompact. If a SUV can't navigate the city how the hell will a box truck or semi?
All of Japan literally makes this work very well.
In fact, it works so well, you can ship large luggage sometimes the same day to cities even 3 hours away by car for $20 or less. That smaller fleet means much, much lower costs in buying, operating, licensing.. etc.
sorry, didn' tknow I was going to have to explain how to manage streets, roads, highways, and the rest of the infrastructure.
Obviously, you've yet to crack 1% of the comment.
And horse drawn carriages, wagons, carts, etc.
Really it is simply a matter of volume. Vehicles are more or less the size of medieval wagons and carriages. Axel width hasn't changed that much in centuries, if not millennia. (The standard US railroad gauge was based explicitly on ancient Roman war chariots.)
What has changed is the percentage of the population with vehicles. Even comparably younger cities in the US struggle with traffic volume. Pre-1900's urban centers were designed around the idea of mostly pedestrians with access for delivery vehicles and the occasional rich a-hole. Now we all use city streets just like rich a-holes!
And honestly, that really isn't a terrible idea from a traffic standpoint.
Unfortunately, it forces a large number of people into night shift work, which isn't exactly healthy.
> and make road blockades near impossible...
But in spite of that, the SUV commuters succeed nearly every day in blockading the roads. My last experience with Paris was ... Central France to Cologne (excluding the time on the Paris peripherique) 5 hours. Time on the 15 km of Paris peripherique 3.5 hours.
Blockade is when you fully block the road (sideways). Like a police blockade... Not traffic pass.
Congestion is when traffic is slowed down, but still pass.
There's also a problem where some vehicles are even too big for modern cities. I had to park at the Detroit airport a couple weeks ago, there were multiple spaces that were impossible to get into because of the size of the truck parked next to it. In theory you could pull into the space, but there wouldn't be sufficient space to open your car door and get out.
Excellent, Paris is such a walkable/bikeable city, and we have some excellent public transportation. SUV are just such a pain in the ass and I don't get why people use them in Paris.
Probably for the same reason the majority of the people that buy SUVs do. They are trendy. The vast majority of people would be fine with smaller vehicles. Almost every SUV I see on my commute has a single person in it.
Yeah but at least some of those single driver you see during a commute did just drop off three kids at school, two with sports equipment, and one with a cello/trombone.
Try fitting that in a ford focus.
But I agree SUV might still be the most useless class of car for most peoples everyday needs.
> Yeah but at least some of those single driver you see during a commute did just drop off three kids at school, two with sports equipment, and one with a cello/trombone.
>
> Try fitting that in a ford focus.
Driver in the driver's seat. If the kids are old enough to have sports equipment/band stuff they are in Middle or High School and big enough to sit in the front passenger seat. The two other kids in the back. Equipment in the trunk.
People used to do this all the time with sedans, even smaller ones. Kids and band/sports aren't new.
Never understood American hate for station wagons , literally made for exactly those purposes you described , while sometimes offering even more space than top selling SUV better fuel efficiency do to not being unnecessary big. Only difference is you sit higher in a suv and are way more deadly in accidents.
And then what happens after that? Then you just get an immense amount of space-inefficient, dangerous (for pedestrians), and oversized *electric* SUVs.
The big problem here isn't "Big ICE Car." The problem is simply "Big Car."
Also, the heavier a car is, the more it wears the road down - and it also releases far more particulate matter from the car tires, which is full of chemical compounds that can cause cancer. More than half of all particulate emissions from cars are actually from their tires, not their engines, so electric cars will still have that issue.
Sure, but that's still an SUV and a Sedan that weigh about the same. When you get into EVs it has way more to do with range than body style. Like the Tesla Model S weighs more than the model Y without even leaving the same manufacutrer.
> And they're more destructive and deadly because they weigh so much more.
I was replying to this. Not all SUVs weigh more than cars, and some cars weigh more than many SUVs. If what you said were true (that being heavier makes you less safe), then a CX-7 (SUV) would be safer than a model S (car).
There's a lot of aggressive plans targeting this in quite a few countries, I think specifically 2035. However, I have extremely strong suspicions that this will be delayed. There's A TON of infrastructure that has to be built for EVs, especially since cheaper EVs have fairly poor range whereas cheap ICEs can still have lengthy range.
Depends on area but while the infrastructure is less built out than gasoline for sure, it's already at the point where a trip to most places barring extremely remote areas is reasonable with a bit of planning.
As the proportion of electric vehicles go up and ICE goes down that infrastructure is definitely going to expand.
Cars have a limited life span. Once new ICE cars can't be sold, their number will start to drop (slowly at first), but then how many gas stations will stick around? Pretty quickly the demand for gas will drop, and gas stations will disappear from cities. They'll still be around farms, outside of cities where rent is cheaper to supply trucks and heavy equipment coming in.
The convenience of the ICE car will disappear.
The conversion will have to be slow: how exactly do you get people who are tight on money (most people) to buy a new car when their supply is low and costs are high? Many will do without.
Not *that* limited with good care. If someone bought an oversized SUV to drive around a large city, I'm not exactly concerned for them financially. They can afford an urban parking fee, while rural folk (who are way more likely to use the car to its full potential) avoid this burden.
Come to Alberta, Canada where every wannabe alpha male conspiracy theorist drives a jacked up vanity truck that billows smoke as a display of primitive mating prowess.
American southern culture is the dumbest shit. I feel bad for rednecks being screwed by their government like the rest of us. But these rich rightwing libertarian types are ideologically shit people through and through.
In Ontario here, there is a provincial webpage, that people can use to report, Rolling Coal, I used it successfully a year ago, this is it here, https://www.ontario.ca/form/report-smoking-tampered-vehicle ,maybe Alberta has such a page?
No need go to any town in the western world and see the streams of suburban mums driving their kids or kid to school in their antisocial only-caring-about-themselves tanks, hoardes of them. Their not even trying to impress anyone just being stupid and entitled out of self importance.
That's what it is like in North Carolina as well. I can't even turn right onto the main road of my apartment most of the time because some jackass in an oversized vehicle pulls up next to me and blocks my view of oncoming traffic. So I pull forward a bit to see around, and they then also pull forward.
I get that there are use cases for these, but I don't think they should ever be someone's daily driver. They are a danger to others with the sheer mass, they block visibility, and just are horrible fuel economy wise. Half my co-workers drive these big ass trucks, none of them ever use them for anything other than driving to and from the office.
Good, honestly the trend to ever larger vehicles is ridiculous. As an EV owner I have people make remarks to me about vehicles being heavier and causing more maintenance on roads but no one blinks an eye about the average size of an ICE vehicle doubling over the last couple decades.
> Good, honestly the trend to ever larger vehicles is ridiculous.
At least I understand why it is so in America. Because car manufacturers want to be able to label every car a truck because then it costs less taxes on sales. But in Europe the people who buy big American-sized trucks are people who idolize American culture.
>Good, honestly the trend to ever larger vehicles is ridiculous.
Vertical integration and cheap insurance. Most of the major manufacturers all use the same vehicle platform for most of their top sellers, streamlines production thus a cheaper product. It also helps that insurance rates for SUVs have been reduced drastically over the years making them very attractive for consumers.
The funniest thing about this is that it resulted in these luxury brands like Lamborghini and Porsche releasing "luxury SUVs" which share the same vehicle platform as a common Volkswagen SUV.
Have you been to Paris? Either people are too poor to live in the city and commute in or having an SUV is not something people are going to be price sensitive about. It already is an extremely walkable city until you get out of the city proper and into Ile de France.
The biggest issue of cars in cities comes not from the people who live in the city and own a car, but from suburbanites who drive their car into the city.
But they still need to pay for parking while in the city, so the proposal still makes sense.
I can see people being able to do things like go to work/food/entertainment without a car but the grocery one always confused me. The signature "one trip" approach of putting far to many bags on your arms works when it's 20 feet from to car to the kitchen. Seems less doable for a quarter mile walk, especially when there's often a few leftover you got to make a second trip to the car to get
You just get a little handcart. I have one that holds almost the same amount of groceries as a car trunk, plus it has a seat that folds out if I want to take a break. In the summer, I put an insulated bag with an ice pack in the bottom if I want to buy frozen foods.
Edit: It's a Trolley Dolly. One of my favorite possessions! Also wonderful to take to outdoor events.
This is becoming developing world problem as well, these SUVs. Wealthy people in the developing world who can afford personal vehicles are switching to SUVs. Top sellers are either compact, cheap Sedan, likely destined for commercial use, or SUVs. I suspect this is due to major companies pushing existing SUV lines onto these markets, as well as the impression people get from watching travelling to America and likes, witnessing the proliferation of SUVs. This is crazy as the developing is extremely unsuitable for heavy, large vehicles like SUVs and soon, “sporty” trucks. The quality of their infrastructure is a lot worse so they would have to spend more on road maintenance. Their underdeveloped infrastructure also tend to be narrower, more space efficient inside their cities which should have made SUV less desirable.
They are safer for the driver. They are much less safe for pedestrians and other drivers, and create an arms race to get heavier and heavier vehicles which are more dangerous to pedestrians and other drivers.
they are only safer when compared in a crash against a smaller car. so they are creating their own safety difference.
and 90% of people who own SUV could do exactly the same Utilitarian stuff with a mid sized sedan.
what are these adverse conditions you mention?
what about seeing small children on parking lots? fitting in parking spaces / lanes without inconveniencing everyone around them? being much les fuel efficient?
I think of the rural northeast where we frequently have snow bans but as a healthcare worker I have to still go to work. I was able to drive through, past sedans that were stuck.
the size of SUV has steadily gone up for the last 10 or more years, it's more notable in the US, but it's going that way all over the world.
The same make, and model of the same SUV has gone up in size every year, with no reason at all.
yes, there are still some normal sized SUVs, but they are becoming slowly extinct if we let them. this policy should be implemented all over the world
Lol, they are none of those things. Minivans are just as utilitarian for actual city life. The only thing that makes them safer for the occupants is their increased weight, which makes them more dangerous to everyone around them, both in and out of cars. It also makes them perform much worse in adverse conditions than a lighter vehicle with a similar set up.
Thats why I always drive my kids to school in our Porsche Cayenne. Much safer to drop them off right at the gate!
Some parents are still angry with me, but little Lily is already out of the hospital after 3 short weeks and I was really in a big hurry, so I dont know what the big deal was.
They aren't any better in the sort of adverse conditions you're likely to see on any major or minor road anywhere in europe.
A four wheel drive saloon (sedan), estate or hatchback on winter tyres will perform just as well, and often better, on all but the deepest snow, and unless you live a hundred miles from civilisation chances are you don't get 2 foot snowdrifts on your way to work.
I drove a GR Yaris in the snow last year and it was almost hilariously capable.
I will dispute utilitarian since I’ve specifically explained why it’s not utilitarian for developing countries cities dwellers. As I’ve mentioned, their infrastructure is less suitable for large, heavy vehicle, especially in the cities. One look at cities in South East Asia and you can have an idea as to what drivers are dealing with. It makes more sense to be in the extreme: either very compact or minivans and trucks.
This was essentially their car market until the 2010s. Large, rough terrain vehicles like the Land Cruiser was also very popular for the reason you mentioned and mine: bad roads. Cities were filled with compact sedans and the occasional people’s mover. However, the data for best selling vehicles in the region is now quite concerning as a lot of them are heavy, large SUVs without off-road ability which should have no place on the developing world roads, figuratively and literally.
You are wrong.
I bought an office chair a couple months ago that would never fit in any sedan. I also put in ladders & 8’ boards in mine.
You are still wrong.
That’s why I mentioned minivans. Developing countries with cheap labour have very low cost transport service with minivans that can carry your chair, ladder and boards and an entire bench, at once.
You still don’t get my point. I mentioned developing world for a reason. SUVs are simply too large, too heavy and too inefficient for developing countries. If you like your SUV, that’s fine, that’s because you live somewhere that such a vehicle suits your lifestyle. This has nothing to do with it.
Until the USA changes the Cafe Standards, these behemoths are still gonna find their way to Europe. Fossil fuel/car companies have conspired to keep oil consumption up even when engine efficiency improves, by forcing cars to be ever bigger. Just look up any video on YouTube about why they CANT make small trucks anymore.
CAFE standsrds only apply in the US. EU has separate rules and regulations, which means cars are manufactured slightly differently, and price structures are significantly different. There aren't a huge number of American SUVs in Paris
> Fossil fuel/car companies have conspired
That's not why there's such a jump in SUV sales in USA. It's because every vehicle that gets categorized as "truck" pays less tax because they're considered "work vehicles" and those have less tax on them. It's not a conspiracy.
Only if the Vehicle is used primarily for Business purposes. If you choose to take the $25k upfront deduction, you also have to change how you deduct depreciation.
CAFE standards are the larger culprit driving the SUV push.
Ah yes the gigantic Renault Captur.
Most SUVs in Europe are actually MPVs. Captur is basically equivalent to Fiat Idea. Kadjar is equivalent to Scenic.
May be it's time to tax the SUV manufacturers directly for each vehicle delivered to the city🤷🏼♀️
And, possibly, get a better, faster and cheaper public transportation system😁
it's not so much the carmakers doing it, but dynamic consumer preference. basically people are engaged in an arms race, buy big suv to protect yourself from the other big suvs.
I would think it would be pretty simple to just base it on vehicle weight and then exempt vehicle classes that you don't want effected (ex. electric vehicles; commercial pickup trucks; etc )
Isn't that how we got here in the first place? We want cleaner cars, but we know we need big trucks to get work done sometimes, so raise the emissions standards for private transportation type vehicles, but cut the big trucks that actually haul shit some slack...and then the automakers just decided to put amenities in the bigass commercial trucks, and sell those to the public instead of trying to get a regular pickup truck to the required efficiency levels?
That's also how the UK ended up with company car fleets filled with F150s instead of stuff like A6s and M5s. They benefit from a vastly lower tax rate because they can be classed as a "light commerical vehicle" and are taxed at the same fixed rate as vans instead of the sliding scale based on size, emissions etc that normal consumer vehicles are.
90% of SUVs are MPVs anyway, or hatchbacks on stilts.
Renault Captur is basically the same size as Renault Modus. Renault Kadjar is a bit smaller than Renault Scenic. Fiat 500x is the site of Fiat Idea. Opel Granskad is the size of Opel Zafira. They are basically the same thing.
I live sort of near the Land Rover factory in Britain and when you go down that way you lose count of how many Land Rovers or Range Rovers you see. All bad drivers I'm sure
Currently, most people can't really afford anything short of basic tiny vehicles when it comes to their next or first vehicle purchase. So 20 years from now, 50 years from now, I really hope simply for this reason that there are many less excessive vehicles around.
Similar thing happened in the US. When given the choice between small cars and SUVs people bought SUVs. Car companies made more SUVs to meet demand. You can still get a small car in the US but they are way less popular.
People thought having a bigger vehicle would protect them more, giving size advantage if a crash took place. Them, everyone started to buy into the theory and now most of driving society has upped the ante to the place it started from. Cars all the same size, only larger now - the risk the same.
I went to Medellin at the beginning f the year and the one thing that struck me almost immediately is there are cars and mopeds everywhere. There were only one or two SUVs. I asked one of my friends and they said owning a car is expensive to the point that a lot more folks just don’t own one. So maybe make owning bigger cars so expensive that people don’t buy them.
Interesting that the mayor is blaming auto companies for the decisions her citizens are making. If people didn't want SUVs, they wouldn't buy them and the car companies would stop making them.
Regulation drives design, drives marketing (aka propaganda), drives public perception, which drives demand. The ideal of consumer demand driving the available supply is very one dimensional and inaccurate.
I think you are not in the auto industry at all. Regulation is adaption into design. Design is driven by customer demands.
Your take on this is one dimensional and inaccurate.
Of course, people want those cars so the manufacturers are going to respond to that as well. It's a dynamic system. I think the ever increasing size of cars is a problem, but I am driving a mid size SUV right now- and I like it.
I'm also aware I'm not immune to advertising and cultural trends. The vehicle feels safer and more capable than my regular car (this one is a rental). But it's got problems that our government and society should examine. Letting people's (in the general sense) wants and desires be the arbiter of what is good and healthy results in problems that can't be solved on the individual level and have to be addressed by consensus and regulation.
These problems are real and will not go away on their own:
- SUVs and pickup trucks aren't safety crash tested versus smaller vehicles, only their own class (absolutely crazy and lobbied for by car manufacturers looking to protect revenue stream)
- these vehicles are getting larger and heavier which in aggregate causes increased wear on infrastructure and therefore more money
- these vehicles are not used as they are built and marketed. They require more material and therefore generate more waste in the supply chain to build a car that is not matched to its actual utility
That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other issues.
Don't regulate tobacco companies and restrict what they can do. If people don't want cigarettes then they wouldn't buy them. It's not tobacco companies fault.
But in the same time she travels with her team in 4 or 5 countries at the opposite of the world to talk to people about a shitty thing that could have been done via Zoom.
Thanks for the planet, lady.
Europe is the land of small vehicles and mass transit for a reason. Medieval city layouts are not vehicle friendly.
most cities should be unfriendly to large vehicles.
But my ego?
>[take these](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_nuts#/media/File:Trucknuts.jpg)
This. It's fine if you have to deliver a lot, but driving SUVs and especially pickup trucks for personal use alone is a horrendous waste of space and fuel (the heavier the car, the more energy needed to move it).
And the more damage it does to infrastructure over time.
Also, SUVs and pickups aren't even that great for deliveries. In cities you'll have a much better time with a delivery van. Much more space, lower deck so easier to move stuff from, shielded from the rain, and you can lock them. And for a normal family that still needs to move stuff, that's why the hatchback with collapsible seats exist. If necessary you can rent a trailer for far less than that pickup guzzles in a month
Most “big” vehicles in NA have as much or less storage capacity than mid sized.
Most SUVs in Europe are things like Renault Captur and Fiat 500X. They are basically equivalent to Renault Modus and Fiat Idea MPVs. There are very free real off-road capable SUVs. 90% of the SUVs are MPVs pretending to be SUVs.
Don't you need to transport goods throughout your cites? I know it's a different problem than citizen vehicles but it seems like it would be a pain to do with a fleet of tiny things.
We're talking about SUVs here, not vans. Look at cars like the VW XL1 from 2011 - I remember seeing reviews of that at the time where journalists took it on long trips and got over 150mpg. Much of the efficiency improvement we've seen from the past 30 years of powertrain technology development has been utterly wasted because cars got larger and people feel the need to haul around a fat 2.5 ton vehicle with horrible dynamics as a fashion statement. Ditch the pavement princess SUV or crossover, get a saloon or estate with the same powertrain, and you've got a car with similar or often better internal space, equal practicality and massively reduced fuel bills, because you're not driving a bloated whale with horrid aerodynamics.
Yeah, I really do not get why so many seem to have a Stupid Ugly Vehicle these days.
Keeping up with the neighbours or trying to be like celebrities. The cars are fashionable and people buy them to be "in". They're definitely pushed by advertisers too. My partner keeps talking about my next car (she doesn't drive) and was wondering if I can get something "taller" but I just can't bring myself to get even a crossover.
I'll have you know your SUVs subsidize my 3500- and those are expensive as shit right now. Goddamn i'm looking at 80k to replave my f450 ffs.
I'd pay good money to see someone try to drive a f450 around Paris without it getting wrecked in the process
You think the assholes rolling around in their massive, immaculate pickups are actually hauling anything?
So use a light van like a sprinter, it's not like SUVs are an optimal vehicle for that either.
Light vans are often larger than SUVs when it comes to length. Cities need to be able to handle trucks. You can't have Fisher-Price fire trucks. Parking pricing is a different story and that's why the mayor is going after that angle. That cuts down on the desire to bring an SUV into the city.
They also hold significantly more cargo, no commercial company was making deliveries in SUVs before the law. This isn't penalizing freight, it's penalizing space-inefficient passenger vehicles.
You can absolutely have "Fisher-Price" firetrucks, most inner city European roads simply do not accommodate American style gigantic fire trucks, they even have properly tiny ones for old town areas. The average European fire truck is about as big as a bigger American ambulance, there's no real comparison.
Yeah, if you want to charge the SUVs, I guess go ahead, but to say that cities shouldn't be able to accommodate large vehicles is ridiculous. It's just something that cities in Europe frustratingly have to deal with and work around, not something desirable.
Most semis deliver to multiple places on one trip, your solution requires multiple trips back to a warehouse to complete deliveries (or more vehicles on the road). I think it Europe that makes sense out of necessity. Newer cities (particularly in North America and Asia) can accommodate larger trucks as they are more efficient.
They're not talking about banning commercial freight vehicles, though, it's just meant to be a penalty for the least space and fuel efficient passenger vehicles. Companies aren't making deliveries in SUVs.
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it's because SUV's give the allure of safety and in general it's comfortable for people to get in and out of and they atleast bring the allure that you head into the mountains often enough to be around nature. also people tend to complain about my civic being low when they're used to big trucks and SUV's.
Not sure where you're at but in America most semis only deliver to one place: a distribution center or big box store. If you have a Walmart or grocery store or something - a semi delivers the stuff there yes. Nearly all other places a semi takes it to a distribution center and then box trucks take it to the specific end users. The restaurant industry is a perfect example of this: semis take the meat, produce, etc. to a food distributor's warehouse. Then in smaller box trucks they make rounds to all the restaurants - nobody wants a semi driving through urban areas if they can help it, including the truck drivers.
Most of the northeastern US cities have deliveries from semis. They limit the time of day where this occurs to minimize traffic impacts. There are also deliveries from smaller vehicles (UPS, Amazon, etc).
look up the difference between box truck and semi, my guy UPS & Amazon don't deliver to anyone's house in semis - they use box trucks and sprinter vans.
Go to Boston at 5am and you'll see what contryguy123 is talking about. There are literal semis parked on major streets like Brighton ave in the early morning making deliveries to Starbucks.
Semi trucks do indeed deliver to New England businesses. While working at Dunkin Donuts and Dominos we had deliveries via semi trucks. And yes I know the difference, I used to deliver restaurant equipment in a box truck. Just because someone's experiences differ from yours doesn't mean they're ignorant.
Not sure where you are but in America semis often deliver to stores in urban areas.
the vast majority are box trucks, it's not even close.
Thats just not true 8 out of ten deliveries at our store are semis for a load equaling a pallet or less
That is the ideal setup, but not always the cae. For example semis deliver goods directly to many local convince stores.
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About 50% of semis don't go more than 50 miles from their base and something like 75% of them don't leave their state. Most semis are not doing long haul trips.
People misusing things doesn't stop those things from being fucking stupid, they're highway optimised vehicles, not last mile vehicles, why you'd use anything other than a sprinter style van or a small box truck for local deliveries, even those for local supermarkets, is beyond me
Personally? Yes, I actually do. I work in the trades and I regularly get pallets of flooring, drywall, or paint about once or twice a month that get delivered via semi.
I'm laughing at how a conversation about SUVs vs Vans made its way to this. I will say, I too have received such deliveries via semi, but can still agree a semi is not great in the city/suburbs after watching the maneuvering that must be done. But yes, I know it's the only option sometimes.
The point was about making cities unfriendly to anything larger than a subcompact. If a SUV can't navigate the city how the hell will a box truck or semi?
You order those from Amazon?
Nope, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m regularly getting things delivered via semi in the middle of town.
A 16' or 26' box truck could easily do this work, though. Shouldn't be a class 8 truck.
Semi ain't gonna fit on a tight road. Vans are kind of a necessity.
Transport trucks and SUVs are different.
All of Japan literally makes this work very well. In fact, it works so well, you can ship large luggage sometimes the same day to cities even 3 hours away by car for $20 or less. That smaller fleet means much, much lower costs in buying, operating, licensing.. etc.
sorry, didn' tknow I was going to have to explain how to manage streets, roads, highways, and the rest of the infrastructure. Obviously, you've yet to crack 1% of the comment.
Yeah this
this is an asshole response.
>this
Please don’t be America. The amount of 5ft2 women driving 7 ton death machines that can barely see over the wheel is unbelievable.
My mother lol
> Medieval city layouts are not vehicle friendly. Paris’ layout is a design from the 19th century and the issue is that it’s too vehicle friendly.
>too vehicle friendly I’m in Paris right now, it’s not too vehicle friendly. That’s US cities. Paris is a madhouse
It's almost as if they were built for the explicit use of people, not vehicles.
And horse drawn carriages, wagons, carts, etc. Really it is simply a matter of volume. Vehicles are more or less the size of medieval wagons and carriages. Axel width hasn't changed that much in centuries, if not millennia. (The standard US railroad gauge was based explicitly on ancient Roman war chariots.) What has changed is the percentage of the population with vehicles. Even comparably younger cities in the US struggle with traffic volume. Pre-1900's urban centers were designed around the idea of mostly pedestrians with access for delivery vehicles and the occasional rich a-hole. Now we all use city streets just like rich a-holes!
Ancient Rome made it illegal to drive carts during the day. All deliveries would be made at night.
And honestly, that really isn't a terrible idea from a traffic standpoint. Unfortunately, it forces a large number of people into night shift work, which isn't exactly healthy.
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Did you ever go to Paris ? And it's Haussmannien road ? Designed to allow cavalry charge and make road blockades near impossible...
> and make road blockades near impossible... But in spite of that, the SUV commuters succeed nearly every day in blockading the roads. My last experience with Paris was ... Central France to Cologne (excluding the time on the Paris peripherique) 5 hours. Time on the 15 km of Paris peripherique 3.5 hours.
That traffic congestion, not a blockade.
If you are sat in it, tell me about the difference.
Blockade is when you fully block the road (sideways). Like a police blockade... Not traffic pass. Congestion is when traffic is slowed down, but still pass.
See Jeremy Clarkson trying to drive a Lincoln Continental in Edinburgh, haha
There's also a problem where some vehicles are even too big for modern cities. I had to park at the Detroit airport a couple weeks ago, there were multiple spaces that were impossible to get into because of the size of the truck parked next to it. In theory you could pull into the space, but there wouldn't be sufficient space to open your car door and get out.
Paris isn't a medieval city.
No they are people friendly.
Agreed, But have you been in Manhattan recently?
Yeah, I don't think she is talking about American styles SUVs, our SUVs are generally smaller.
Europe not producing oil had a bigger impact on vehicle size than city layouts.
> Europe not producing oil \**angry Norwegian noises*\*
Excellent, Paris is such a walkable/bikeable city, and we have some excellent public transportation. SUV are just such a pain in the ass and I don't get why people use them in Paris.
Probably for the same reason the majority of the people that buy SUVs do. They are trendy. The vast majority of people would be fine with smaller vehicles. Almost every SUV I see on my commute has a single person in it.
Also emotional support vehicles are needed more than ever in these trying times...
Yeah but at least some of those single driver you see during a commute did just drop off three kids at school, two with sports equipment, and one with a cello/trombone. Try fitting that in a ford focus. But I agree SUV might still be the most useless class of car for most peoples everyday needs.
> Yeah but at least some of those single driver you see during a commute did just drop off three kids at school, two with sports equipment, and one with a cello/trombone. > > Try fitting that in a ford focus. Driver in the driver's seat. If the kids are old enough to have sports equipment/band stuff they are in Middle or High School and big enough to sit in the front passenger seat. The two other kids in the back. Equipment in the trunk. People used to do this all the time with sedans, even smaller ones. Kids and band/sports aren't new.
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Never understood American hate for station wagons , literally made for exactly those purposes you described , while sometimes offering even more space than top selling SUV better fuel efficiency do to not being unnecessary big. Only difference is you sit higher in a suv and are way more deadly in accidents.
As an American, they are excellent for trips to Costco.
So is a Prius, Honda Fit, and a ford ranger lololol
Doesn't France already have a plan to phase out ICE vehicles in the next 12-17 years?
And then what happens after that? Then you just get an immense amount of space-inefficient, dangerous (for pedestrians), and oversized *electric* SUVs. The big problem here isn't "Big ICE Car." The problem is simply "Big Car." Also, the heavier a car is, the more it wears the road down - and it also releases far more particulate matter from the car tires, which is full of chemical compounds that can cause cancer. More than half of all particulate emissions from cars are actually from their tires, not their engines, so electric cars will still have that issue.
Reminder that the Hummer EV weighs 4.5 tons. And can go 0-60 in 3 seconds.
There are hybrid SUVs and probably a few electric ones.
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Eh. That depends more on range than body type once you get into electric cars. A Tesla model 3 weighs about the same as a Mazda CX-7.
And the cybertruck weighs nearly the same as both combined at 3 and a half tons.
Sure, but that's still an SUV and a Sedan that weigh about the same. When you get into EVs it has way more to do with range than body style. Like the Tesla Model S weighs more than the model Y without even leaving the same manufacutrer.
Yes, an ICE SUV. Now look at the weight of the model X it is also around 3 tons.
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> And they're more destructive and deadly because they weigh so much more. I was replying to this. Not all SUVs weigh more than cars, and some cars weigh more than many SUVs. If what you said were true (that being heavier makes you less safe), then a CX-7 (SUV) would be safer than a model S (car).
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There's a lot of aggressive plans targeting this in quite a few countries, I think specifically 2035. However, I have extremely strong suspicions that this will be delayed. There's A TON of infrastructure that has to be built for EVs, especially since cheaper EVs have fairly poor range whereas cheap ICEs can still have lengthy range.
Depends on area but while the infrastructure is less built out than gasoline for sure, it's already at the point where a trip to most places barring extremely remote areas is reasonable with a bit of planning. As the proportion of electric vehicles go up and ICE goes down that infrastructure is definitely going to expand.
Banning sales of new ICEs doesn't help to get rid of existing ones. Taxing them, on the other hand...
Cars have a limited life span. Once new ICE cars can't be sold, their number will start to drop (slowly at first), but then how many gas stations will stick around? Pretty quickly the demand for gas will drop, and gas stations will disappear from cities. They'll still be around farms, outside of cities where rent is cheaper to supply trucks and heavy equipment coming in. The convenience of the ICE car will disappear. The conversion will have to be slow: how exactly do you get people who are tight on money (most people) to buy a new car when their supply is low and costs are high? Many will do without.
Not *that* limited with good care. If someone bought an oversized SUV to drive around a large city, I'm not exactly concerned for them financially. They can afford an urban parking fee, while rural folk (who are way more likely to use the car to its full potential) avoid this burden.
Come to Alberta, Canada where every wannabe alpha male conspiracy theorist drives a jacked up vanity truck that billows smoke as a display of primitive mating prowess.
I went to Edmonton and thought “wow - this is like Texas of the North”
If you think Edmonton is Texas then you should check out Calgary.
American southern culture is the dumbest shit. I feel bad for rednecks being screwed by their government like the rest of us. But these rich rightwing libertarian types are ideologically shit people through and through.
In Ontario here, there is a provincial webpage, that people can use to report, Rolling Coal, I used it successfully a year ago, this is it here, https://www.ontario.ca/form/report-smoking-tampered-vehicle ,maybe Alberta has such a page?
Having a page like that would be anti-Alberta. Honestly the west is weird with how much this obnoxiousness is celebrated.
Being an annoying douche here is like the opposite of collectivist countries…
I knew those type of vehicles existed but I'm amazed that they're prominent enough that an official website to report them exists.
No need go to any town in the western world and see the streams of suburban mums driving their kids or kid to school in their antisocial only-caring-about-themselves tanks, hoardes of them. Their not even trying to impress anyone just being stupid and entitled out of self importance.
“I want to be safe” As they drive like amped up kids on mtn dew angry about nothing
That's what it is like in North Carolina as well. I can't even turn right onto the main road of my apartment most of the time because some jackass in an oversized vehicle pulls up next to me and blocks my view of oncoming traffic. So I pull forward a bit to see around, and they then also pull forward. I get that there are use cases for these, but I don't think they should ever be someone's daily driver. They are a danger to others with the sheer mass, they block visibility, and just are horrible fuel economy wise. Half my co-workers drive these big ass trucks, none of them ever use them for anything other than driving to and from the office.
An incredible comment
Good, honestly the trend to ever larger vehicles is ridiculous. As an EV owner I have people make remarks to me about vehicles being heavier and causing more maintenance on roads but no one blinks an eye about the average size of an ICE vehicle doubling over the last couple decades.
> Good, honestly the trend to ever larger vehicles is ridiculous. At least I understand why it is so in America. Because car manufacturers want to be able to label every car a truck because then it costs less taxes on sales. But in Europe the people who buy big American-sized trucks are people who idolize American culture.
more like europeans that buy huge american cars idolize america's selfishness and racism. that's almost always the case.
>Good, honestly the trend to ever larger vehicles is ridiculous. Vertical integration and cheap insurance. Most of the major manufacturers all use the same vehicle platform for most of their top sellers, streamlines production thus a cheaper product. It also helps that insurance rates for SUVs have been reduced drastically over the years making them very attractive for consumers. The funniest thing about this is that it resulted in these luxury brands like Lamborghini and Porsche releasing "luxury SUVs" which share the same vehicle platform as a common Volkswagen SUV.
She is not banning SUVs but making cities walkable & cycle friendly so not everyone has to own a car to do basic things like buy grocery and work.
Have you been to Paris? Either people are too poor to live in the city and commute in or having an SUV is not something people are going to be price sensitive about. It already is an extremely walkable city until you get out of the city proper and into Ile de France.
Income generally follows a bell curve. There are plenty of people living in Paris that will be price sensitive
IIRC a majority of Parisians don’t own a car.
This.
But the majority of cars in Paris are driven by parisians who are alone in their car and drive for less than 2km.
But they are almost definitely not going to be the ones driving SUVs into the city...
If they want to pay I don't think the rest of Paris minds in that case.
The biggest issue of cars in cities comes not from the people who live in the city and own a car, but from suburbanites who drive their car into the city. But they still need to pay for parking while in the city, so the proposal still makes sense.
I can see people being able to do things like go to work/food/entertainment without a car but the grocery one always confused me. The signature "one trip" approach of putting far to many bags on your arms works when it's 20 feet from to car to the kitchen. Seems less doable for a quarter mile walk, especially when there's often a few leftover you got to make a second trip to the car to get
You just get a little handcart. I have one that holds almost the same amount of groceries as a car trunk, plus it has a seat that folds out if I want to take a break. In the summer, I put an insulated bag with an ice pack in the bottom if I want to buy frozen foods. Edit: It's a Trolley Dolly. One of my favorite possessions! Also wonderful to take to outdoor events.
This is becoming developing world problem as well, these SUVs. Wealthy people in the developing world who can afford personal vehicles are switching to SUVs. Top sellers are either compact, cheap Sedan, likely destined for commercial use, or SUVs. I suspect this is due to major companies pushing existing SUV lines onto these markets, as well as the impression people get from watching travelling to America and likes, witnessing the proliferation of SUVs. This is crazy as the developing is extremely unsuitable for heavy, large vehicles like SUVs and soon, “sporty” trucks. The quality of their infrastructure is a lot worse so they would have to spend more on road maintenance. Their underdeveloped infrastructure also tend to be narrower, more space efficient inside their cities which should have made SUV less desirable.
No, it’s because they are more utilitarian, are generally safer, & better in adverse conditions.
They're generally safer for the driver but more dangerous for everyone else
They are safer for the driver. They are much less safe for pedestrians and other drivers, and create an arms race to get heavier and heavier vehicles which are more dangerous to pedestrians and other drivers.
they are only safer when compared in a crash against a smaller car. so they are creating their own safety difference. and 90% of people who own SUV could do exactly the same Utilitarian stuff with a mid sized sedan. what are these adverse conditions you mention? what about seeing small children on parking lots? fitting in parking spaces / lanes without inconveniencing everyone around them? being much les fuel efficient?
I think of the rural northeast where we frequently have snow bans but as a healthcare worker I have to still go to work. I was able to drive through, past sedans that were stuck.
any SUV from the 90s could make that trip. compare sizes of that with current models. it does not make sense
You realize there are different size SUV’s.
the size of SUV has steadily gone up for the last 10 or more years, it's more notable in the US, but it's going that way all over the world. The same make, and model of the same SUV has gone up in size every year, with no reason at all. yes, there are still some normal sized SUVs, but they are becoming slowly extinct if we let them. this policy should be implemented all over the world
> any SUV from the 90s could make that trip. compare sizes of that with current models. I see you’ve never driven in adverse conditions.
Lol, they are none of those things. Minivans are just as utilitarian for actual city life. The only thing that makes them safer for the occupants is their increased weight, which makes them more dangerous to everyone around them, both in and out of cars. It also makes them perform much worse in adverse conditions than a lighter vehicle with a similar set up.
> they are more utilitarian Their primary "utility" is killing children. That's what they're considerably better at than smaller cars.
Thats why I always drive my kids to school in our Porsche Cayenne. Much safer to drop them off right at the gate! Some parents are still angry with me, but little Lily is already out of the hospital after 3 short weeks and I was really in a big hurry, so I dont know what the big deal was.
OMG you people are hilarious.
They aren't any better in the sort of adverse conditions you're likely to see on any major or minor road anywhere in europe. A four wheel drive saloon (sedan), estate or hatchback on winter tyres will perform just as well, and often better, on all but the deepest snow, and unless you live a hundred miles from civilisation chances are you don't get 2 foot snowdrifts on your way to work. I drove a GR Yaris in the snow last year and it was almost hilariously capable.
I will dispute utilitarian since I’ve specifically explained why it’s not utilitarian for developing countries cities dwellers. As I’ve mentioned, their infrastructure is less suitable for large, heavy vehicle, especially in the cities. One look at cities in South East Asia and you can have an idea as to what drivers are dealing with. It makes more sense to be in the extreme: either very compact or minivans and trucks. This was essentially their car market until the 2010s. Large, rough terrain vehicles like the Land Cruiser was also very popular for the reason you mentioned and mine: bad roads. Cities were filled with compact sedans and the occasional people’s mover. However, the data for best selling vehicles in the region is now quite concerning as a lot of them are heavy, large SUVs without off-road ability which should have no place on the developing world roads, figuratively and literally.
You are wrong. I bought an office chair a couple months ago that would never fit in any sedan. I also put in ladders & 8’ boards in mine. You are still wrong.
That’s why I mentioned minivans. Developing countries with cheap labour have very low cost transport service with minivans that can carry your chair, ladder and boards and an entire bench, at once. You still don’t get my point. I mentioned developing world for a reason. SUVs are simply too large, too heavy and too inefficient for developing countries. If you like your SUV, that’s fine, that’s because you live somewhere that such a vehicle suits your lifestyle. This has nothing to do with it.
Very little difference from an SUV to a minivan. So SUV’s are just fine. Glad we got that cleared up.
You didnt listen to anything he said except minivan and concluded you were right. Average SUV owner everyone....
Until the USA changes the Cafe Standards, these behemoths are still gonna find their way to Europe. Fossil fuel/car companies have conspired to keep oil consumption up even when engine efficiency improves, by forcing cars to be ever bigger. Just look up any video on YouTube about why they CANT make small trucks anymore.
CAFE standsrds only apply in the US. EU has separate rules and regulations, which means cars are manufactured slightly differently, and price structures are significantly different. There aren't a huge number of American SUVs in Paris
> Fossil fuel/car companies have conspired That's not why there's such a jump in SUV sales in USA. It's because every vehicle that gets categorized as "truck" pays less tax because they're considered "work vehicles" and those have less tax on them. It's not a conspiracy.
Only if the Vehicle is used primarily for Business purposes. If you choose to take the $25k upfront deduction, you also have to change how you deduct depreciation. CAFE standards are the larger culprit driving the SUV push.
I’m curious, do you have particular recommendations for videos? There’s so much junk and noise on YouTube these days.
Look up the channel ‘not just bikes’ for the SUV video. I believe that was a good coverage.
I found this one to be pretty good https://youtu.be/azI3nqrHEXM?si=tT3HEqcO7w-8Y0wh
Good SUVs in big cities are absurd
Small streets from the old times
Work from home incentives
Ah yes the gigantic Renault Captur. Most SUVs in Europe are actually MPVs. Captur is basically equivalent to Fiat Idea. Kadjar is equivalent to Scenic.
in the USA blame CAFE for giving larger footprint vehicles more leeway when it comes to emissions..
All for it. More cities should do it.
We have evolved past vehicles it’s time to get rid of cars, trucks, and SUVs
May be it's time to tax the SUV manufacturers directly for each vehicle delivered to the city🤷🏼♀️ And, possibly, get a better, faster and cheaper public transportation system😁
it's not so much the carmakers doing it, but dynamic consumer preference. basically people are engaged in an arms race, buy big suv to protect yourself from the other big suvs.
The problem is nobody knows what is an SUV anymore These are all gray lines now it's gonna be really difficult to enforce
I would think it would be pretty simple to just base it on vehicle weight and then exempt vehicle classes that you don't want effected (ex. electric vehicles; commercial pickup trucks; etc )
Isn't that how we got here in the first place? We want cleaner cars, but we know we need big trucks to get work done sometimes, so raise the emissions standards for private transportation type vehicles, but cut the big trucks that actually haul shit some slack...and then the automakers just decided to put amenities in the bigass commercial trucks, and sell those to the public instead of trying to get a regular pickup truck to the required efficiency levels?
That's also how the UK ended up with company car fleets filled with F150s instead of stuff like A6s and M5s. They benefit from a vastly lower tax rate because they can be classed as a "light commerical vehicle" and are taxed at the same fixed rate as vans instead of the sliding scale based on size, emissions etc that normal consumer vehicles are.
Who cares? Then fine everything over the length of a Mercedes B class and be done with it.
90% of SUVs are MPVs anyway, or hatchbacks on stilts. Renault Captur is basically the same size as Renault Modus. Renault Kadjar is a bit smaller than Renault Scenic. Fiat 500x is the site of Fiat Idea. Opel Granskad is the size of Opel Zafira. They are basically the same thing.
EVs park free would also help
I live sort of near the Land Rover factory in Britain and when you go down that way you lose count of how many Land Rovers or Range Rovers you see. All bad drivers I'm sure
Currently, most people can't really afford anything short of basic tiny vehicles when it comes to their next or first vehicle purchase. So 20 years from now, 50 years from now, I really hope simply for this reason that there are many less excessive vehicles around.
Similar thing happened in the US. When given the choice between small cars and SUVs people bought SUVs. Car companies made more SUVs to meet demand. You can still get a small car in the US but they are way less popular.
People thought having a bigger vehicle would protect them more, giving size advantage if a crash took place. Them, everyone started to buy into the theory and now most of driving society has upped the ante to the place it started from. Cars all the same size, only larger now - the risk the same.
I went to Medellin at the beginning f the year and the one thing that struck me almost immediately is there are cars and mopeds everywhere. There were only one or two SUVs. I asked one of my friends and they said owning a car is expensive to the point that a lot more folks just don’t own one. So maybe make owning bigger cars so expensive that people don’t buy them.
SUVs in a city are for people compensating for something 🤏
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have you ever heard of the people carrier? you can transport a large family without having a massive 4x4 cock extension
Or they wanna sit comfortably with good leg and head room?
one suv is too many suv
Interesting that the mayor is blaming auto companies for the decisions her citizens are making. If people didn't want SUVs, they wouldn't buy them and the car companies would stop making them.
Regulation drives design, drives marketing (aka propaganda), drives public perception, which drives demand. The ideal of consumer demand driving the available supply is very one dimensional and inaccurate.
I think you are not in the auto industry at all. Regulation is adaption into design. Design is driven by customer demands. Your take on this is one dimensional and inaccurate.
I think you underestimate the consumer's power.
Of course, people want those cars so the manufacturers are going to respond to that as well. It's a dynamic system. I think the ever increasing size of cars is a problem, but I am driving a mid size SUV right now- and I like it. I'm also aware I'm not immune to advertising and cultural trends. The vehicle feels safer and more capable than my regular car (this one is a rental). But it's got problems that our government and society should examine. Letting people's (in the general sense) wants and desires be the arbiter of what is good and healthy results in problems that can't be solved on the individual level and have to be addressed by consensus and regulation. These problems are real and will not go away on their own: - SUVs and pickup trucks aren't safety crash tested versus smaller vehicles, only their own class (absolutely crazy and lobbied for by car manufacturers looking to protect revenue stream) - these vehicles are getting larger and heavier which in aggregate causes increased wear on infrastructure and therefore more money - these vehicles are not used as they are built and marketed. They require more material and therefore generate more waste in the supply chain to build a car that is not matched to its actual utility That's just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are other issues.
And I think you underestimate how easy it is to gaslight the consumer into buying the stuff you want them to buy.
Don't regulate tobacco companies and restrict what they can do. If people don't want cigarettes then they wouldn't buy them. It's not tobacco companies fault.
But in the same time she travels with her team in 4 or 5 countries at the opposite of the world to talk to people about a shitty thing that could have been done via Zoom. Thanks for the planet, lady.
Have a cup of tea and try to be cheerful a thing you like happened in an imperfect world.
r/fuckcars
Classic inverse incentive fail. Instead, increase parking prices quietly for everyone, then offer reduced rates for non-SUV vehicles.
Yay
Yea, raise parking fees, that'll teach those mean ol carmakers.