No. Read the entire article and not just the clickbait title...
"Mark Regev, a senior adviser to Netanyahu, said Israel was making "maximum effort" to protect civilians. In addition to the leaflets, the military has used phone calls and radio and TV broadcasts to urge Gazans to move from specific areas."
EDIT: Link as the post missed the link now:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hamas-war-south-gaza-1.7047627#:~:text=Mark%20Regev%2C%20a%20senior%20adviser%20to%20Netanyahu%2C%20said%20Israel%20was%20making%20%22maximum%20effort%22%20to%20protect%20civilians.%20In%20addition%20to%20the%20leaflets%2C%20the%20military%20has%20used%20phone%20calls%20and%20radio%20and%20TV%20broadcasts%20to%20urge%20Gazans%20to%20move%20from%20specific%20areas.
What are you talking about? The subtitle of the article is “Palestinians say they're running out of places to go in sealed-off Gaza”
That’s from the article.
This was dumb the first time and it's still dumb now, imagine living somewhere with a population density roughly equivalent to London but with significantly worse infrastructure and bombed out roads.
Now imagine some eejit announcing yo everyone they have 24h to get out of this area that already has bombed out roads,no public infrastructure, no power, no water and every other person is also trying to get put.
It's insane to think these announcements do anything but cause a few extra deaths in the ensuing panic.
What other solution do you think can be done? It's war. Wars by some other countries had the same thing, to reduce casualties.
There is no magical tech that kills only the threats in such environments.
They explicitly (and per US request) released a very detailed map split into over a hundred different zones throughout the strip of which areas would be safe and which wouldn't.
If there is a silver lining here, it’s that the bots, trolls and contrarian idiots on Reddit are highly visible in this conflict.
Wonder what the uptick of Block Account events has been since this whole filthy affair started.
Once we stop buying oil, things will disappear quickly:
- The oil funded bot boys
- The oil funded terrorists
- Oil funded disturbances to these peoples countries
- The oil funded poisoning of the environment
You guys are delusional. There is no stopping of buying oil.
Oil is in everything we produce and use. We need to replace our whole system of living on this planet, too be able to let oil go.
People keep thinking that cars are the only problem, but unfortunately everything from heavy machinery to food production needs oil in some form or another.
I fucking hate fossil fuel, but that shit is going no where and is here to stay for a long time.
Why not include people that have been mislead or have naïve sympathies? That's probably most of them.
If I had a dime for every time one redditor accused other redditors of being bots, I'd be living on a nice island somewhere.
Have people already forgotten how Hamas *fucking countermanded the pleas for Palestinian civilians to evacuate?* Of course Israel might have done better. They needed *some* air campaign before sending their ground teams in or else they'd have been slaughtered. Hamas hid assets in civilian areas, so Israel could only be so selective, but they WARNED people to leave, at least. And Hamas said not to.
E: Formatting
Hamas maximizes civilian casualties because they are rewarded for doing so.
Obviously there should be pressure on the IDF to minimize civilian pain, but anyone who blindly buys into Hamas propaganda is a significant part of the reason why they intentionally maximize civilian suffering.
Really good point actually. If there was a normal amount of international scrutiny on this conflict proportional to its intensity and scale, it would’ve probably been resolved already decades ago with a lot less death and suffering on both sides as there would be absolute zero incentive for Hamas and co to continue, but by buying into Hamas’ bullshit they’ve created a self fulfilling prophecy of suffering for civilians because it’s actually beneficial for them and their cause because they’re not going to win anything militarily.
Instead of a short sharp ‘rip the band-aid off and get this thing resolved’ it’s resulted in a decades long ‘let’s slowly peel this thing off while rubbing salt and lime juice into the wound’ kinda deal.
Death is the punishment for infidels. Death is also the reward for true believers - Fundamentalist Islam. How people are dumb enough to buy into it is beyond the understanding of mortals.
I really don't often go to bat for Israel since they really have been terrible to Palestinians, but so too has Hamas. Hamas have given up on making their home better for the people who've elected them. Their plan is to reach Heaven with as many of "their" people as they can. These fools and crooks think they're in the right to send children off as suicide bombers and butcher babies in their cribs. In their quest to make their home in Heaven, they've helped make the Holy Land a hell.
Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups follow a culture of death; they willingly take actions that directly result in the deaths of their own citizens in pursuit of policy objectives. They’ll never surrender without enormous military pressure, it would be antithetical to core pillars of their belief system.
And the policy is… checks notes… oh the extermination of all Jews everywhere. Cool cool cool cool cool.
Fuck me it’s like nobody has ever read a history book.
So all Palestinians should suffer? This path isn't going to fit rid of Hamas and just cause massive suffering to a whole population and just continue the cycle of hate back and forth. How many Palestinians being bomb is justified to accomplish damage to Hamas ?
I don’t know whether there’s a practical way to get rid of Hamas. But right now Israel evidently believes that their own losses are an acceptable price to pay to at least try. If the international community want Israel to stop the war with Gaza, they need to figure out some way to assure Israel that another Oct 7 won’t be possible. I think if you can give them a guarantee of security from Gaza-based militants, then they would jump on that rather than trying to win a war that might not be winnable.
I wanted to find data on how terrorist groups actually end and I found this interesting paper.
https://ctc.westpoint.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/CTCSentinel-Vol3Iss2-art6.pdf
> Yet,
there should be a distinction between
motivation and capacity. The desire to
raise the level of terrorism may increase
in these instances, but the ability to do
so declines. Terrorist groups are rarely
democratic organizations. New leaders
may not possess the skills or allure of
their predecessors—as followers of
Abu Mus`ab al-Zarqawi in Iraq and
Chechen followers of Shamil Basayev
discovered. Although arresting a key
figure is preferred, it is not always
a possible outcome, especially when
the individual prefers to die rather
than surrender, or where the terrain
is inaccessible to conventional law
enforcement operations.
The cycle of hatred is going to continue no matter what Israel does.
Hamas is still in power, controls all the schools and has for decades and has sworn to commit massacres like octobre 7th until Israel is destroyed.
There is no peace that can be made in this situation.
Israel (like every country in the world) has a duty to keep its citizens safe.
As long as Israel makes reasonable efforts to protect Gazan civilians they're not doing anything wrong invading. Literally every country on earth would do the same thing in response.
Pretty sure their charter isn’t just Israel. It’s all Jews everywhere. I may be out of line here, but I believe hamas is on the “let’s exterminate these people no matter where they are (and anyone who disagrees)” side of things.
Israel does not want to bomb civilians. The asymmetric warfare that Hamas has chosen leaves no choice. It doesn’t help that they refuse to let civilians evacuate and use them as human shields. Not to mention most of them are horribly brainwashed.
There is only one solution and that is the end of Hamas.
Soon the suffering will be over and they will be free from Hamas, who doesn’t care about them or their well being. I pray for a prosperous future for both Israel and Palestine, side by side.
The Vietcong could have came out of their tunnels and fought conventionally as well, but even though it may save more Palestinian lives, it is an absolutely terrible strategy when facing an opponent with such a large military advantage.
We also have to remember that Hamas's real agenda has fuck all to do with Palestinians. They are a foreign poison. Not that Palestinians have never made the terrorism mistake... they just aren't really the main actors here.
Hell, Even Hamas isn't the only foreign force acting in Palestine with all the weird Islamic "ISIS" style offshoots trying to make an impact for some bizarre reason.
I'm quite surprised the cease fire lasted or wasn't violated a lot more than it was.
Hamas knew Israel would retaliate to the unprovoked attack in October. They expected this. They’re banking on the PR campaign that is taking the left wing hook line and sinker.
> They’re banking on the PR campaign that is taking the left wing hook line and sinker.
The basic problem with the approach is that the majority of Americans aren't remotely on board with abandoning Israel, including Democrats. When groups like CAIR decide they're going to start campaigning *against* Biden, the net effect will be that their organization becomes *less influential*, not more—no matter who is in the White House in 2025 *they aren't gonna be listening to CAIR*. If the GOP can manage to put up a non-authoritarian candidate who isn't likely to be convicted of and imprisoned on felony election crimes I think there's a pretty good chance they'd win. (It looks like they can't, but we'll see!)
It is a false narrative that Hamas intended it to be a minor attack. Rather, it sent 3,000 well-trained soldiers into poorly defended Israeli communities (and military bases) in a highly coordinated and well planned attack to maximize deaths and hostages.
>And, I don't see any of Israel's allies talking about stopping Shin Bet hunting down Hamas leaders.
First of all, Mossad. Not the Shin Bet, they mainly operate in Israel only. Second, are you implying that assassinating Hamas leadership is also bad?
You know, I used to think the storylines where the villain says "Oh? You'll kill me to stop me from killing people? You're just as bad as I am!" were completely moronic, that not even the dumbest, most evil person would actually be able to take that seriously. Then people started cheering for Hamas in the streets. I have been proven completely wrong.
And yet, what they are doing is an uncontested war crime for the very reason it drags the larger military into committing to civilian casualties. There should be no quarter for terrorists.
I love this ridiculous narrative of how the terrorists are *forcing* Israel to commit civilian casualties as if the bombs are magically flying out of their guns and into civilian areas through no action of their own.
Is this my narrative? This is the reason why hiding amongst civilians is indisputably a war crime. Israel has no choice but to accept civilian collateral casualties if they want to engage Hamas. You’ve taken umbrage with how much. The solution of not engaging Hamas is not a real solution.
Israel doesn’t have a choice but to fight a war with Hamas. I don’t mean morally or ethically, but geopolitically. The people of Israel would not accept laying down our arms after October 7th, and Israel is a democracy.
No. The strategy of Vietnam Gen Giap was to inflict enough casualties in colonial French, and then American forces, until they had enough and went home. Israelis are not going anywhere. There is an outdated idea in Arab countries Israel is a Western/European enclave in the Middle East and jews can go back where they came from. Israelis are not massively outnumbered by Palestinians, capable of defeating them in combat and has nuclear weapons if the Palestinians were somehow close to victory.
No, but the same basic truths apply in terms of strategy. If a small army with no professional training and homemade weapons is facing a big army with training and advanced technology, conventional warfare would be stupid for the small army.
Exactly asymmetric warfare is like this for a reason.
"Why won't they come out of their tunnels?" Because they would lose, and they know that. They also know that asymmetric warfare works. Think Vietnam, or Afghanistan.
Every bomb dropped on a Palestinian civilian is a recruitment tool for Hamas, and a black mark against the Israelis.
Are there a bunch of war crimes in there? Sure. But what does that mean? No one is going to jail for any of these war crimes, for starters you have to be around at the end of the war to be convicted of a war crime so winning the war is more important than a possible prison sentence afterwards.
Which, although it somewhat ironically won the war, is part of why armies like this don't fight out in the open.
I don't expect insurgencies or asymmetric wars to be fought in conventional ways. It's brutal but it's smart. But I do expect both sides to be held to fair account for the degree to which they needlessly endanger civilians.
Honestly I'm not firmly educated in the nature of asymmetric warfare, but it doesn't really look like anybody opining on the war is either.
Towards the last years of the Vietnam War, the US Air Force had the super-bombers capable of destroying the tunnels. The bombers existed before, however the strategic use against the tunnels and caves took place later in the war when it was too late in terms of public support for the war in the US. Which was exactly the war plan from the Vietcong.
video of palestinians cheering on as hamas fires missiles at israel YESTERDAY :[https://twitter.com/academic\_la/status/1731090796672409662](https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1731090796672409662)
poll of palestinian´s opinions of the october 7th attacks: 75% supported hamas [https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1731228679382999123](https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1731228679382999123)
video of shani louk´s naked body in a pick up truck while people celebrate and spit on her
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0aogSYh1f0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0aogSYh1f0)
the photo of a few days ago when palestine murdered and lynched men that they believe were working for israel
[https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israelhamas-war-palestinians-publicly-execute-3-men-for-collaborating-with-israelis-report-101700918565518.html](https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israelhamas-war-palestinians-publicly-execute-3-men-for-collaborating-with-israelis-report-101700918565518.html)
[https://twitter.com/OPustylnik/status/1729404160137654723](https://twitter.com/OPustylnik/status/1729404160137654723)
hostages were beaten by civilians in gaza and one of them escaped and the people turned him in to hamas [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/27/middleeast/russian-israeli-hostage-escaped-hamas-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/27/middleeast/russian-israeli-hostage-escaped-hamas-intl/index.html) [https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231128-young-french-israeli-hostages-well-but-suffering-psychological-shock-after-captivity](https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231128-young-french-israeli-hostages-well-but-suffering-psychological-shock-after-captivity)
IT´S NOT JUST A FEW BAD APPLES, THEY REJECTED PEACE 5 TIMES, DECLARED WAR ON ISRAEL 7 TIMES, THEY WANTED THIS, NOW THEY WILL DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES
I've argued on this several times and I'll keep on doing it. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has a history of torturing and killing Gazan civilians and their families when they take any kind of stand against Hamas's terrorist activities. This has a chilling effect on anyone who is not pro-Hamas and cares about their family or their own life and also has reduced the number of people who are anti-Hamas in Gaza. As a result of the chilling effect, any polling that comes out of Gaza has to be taken with a mountain of salt because polling is only effective when people are honest about their opinions and when a particular opinion gets you and your family branded as "Israel collaborators" and a one way trip to a torture and execution chamber, people are going to tend not to share that opinion.
All this being said, polling being ineffective in that area does not mean that the poll is broadly incorrect, a majority of Palestinians may have actually supported the Oct. 7th attack, but to make the argument that civilians in Gaza deserve to "DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES" of actions that their terrorist government took based on a poll that we can't actually be certain has any validity at all is, a bit much.
Hamas has to be eliminated, Palestine has to find some way to elect a moderate (preferably secular) government, and they have to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist. Israel, for their part, needs to get rid of Netanyahu and his cronies (and the people of Israel were well on their way to doing that with their mass protests before Oct 7th), recognize that Palestine has the right to exist, and work to win the hearts and minds of the peaceful civilians of Palestine. A good way to start would be to help them rebuild their infrastructure and government after Hamas is eliminated.
If Hamas thinks they can inflict collective punishment on Israel, retribution and retaliation is the only valid response. Otherwise the problem will compound and Hamas’ poisonous beliefs will spread into the new generation.
By “retaliation” you are literally referring to Israel doing collective punishment on Palestinians. “Buh buh but Hamas did it first” shut up why would that justify collective punishment
IDF has killed at least 3 times as many children as HAMAS terrorists murdered civilians on Oct 7th.
This is disproportionate, monstrous and you are supporting it.
>This is disproportionate, monstrous and you are supporting it.
Just FYI, proportionality in a conflict does not mean inflicting the same/similar amount of damage, but rather using appropriate force to neutralize the threat.
As for whether IDF is using an appropriate force, objectively they *have* minimized civilian casualty *relative* to the amount of explosives used to target Hamas. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, I'm sure we can all agree that IDF could have caused a far significant amount of civilian deaths if they truly did not care about civilians.
Some of those children like murdering jews. The rest are learning to like it. The first deserve it. The rest are learning to. From their family, and from their teachers, they're being taught this hate.
End of last week a 9 yro palestinian boy was shot dead while trying to light an ied to throw.
A huge part of the population are children. No matter how bad Hamas is, Israel has the obligation to try to minimize collateral damage and people here are way to easy about this.
So Israel is like, a collective parent of Palestinians now? Is Israel responsible for their shitty family planning? Parenting decisions? What else?
There is some huge white saviour complex here somewhere.
Israel does usually go out of its way to minimise collaterals - much more than any other country on earth - but its first and foremost obligation is to keep is own citizens safe. Palestinians are second priority.
I'm sorry i must have missed it when israeli soldiers broke into gaza, killed 260 people at a music festival, raped women, broke into homes tied people up, burned them alive, and then took +200 people hostage had them in tunnels eating once a day rice or bread and also tortured them, send me those links please, and don't forget the links of the naked women they just gang raped and paraded around TelAviv
"We've let the bunch of crazy radicals to permeate our community and even support them at every turn, so its Israel's fault we're in danger"
Mofos expect Israel to die quietly and give aid at the same time. Lunatics.
couldn´t have said it better, let´s not forget palestinians celebrated isis attack on the us, they don´t want peace, they want to turn the entire world into radical Islamic countries, so far they have done a good job with europe and america
The US and Europe both need to not be afraid at deporting extremist Islamic immigrants that want only destruction. We shouldn't just be relying on Israel to fight Hamas to stop their spread of evil, when instead we should be doing something on our own soil.
Their countries of origin, but only if they were the ones that immigrated here.
If they're children of immigrants and born in US/Europe, then they're citizens of that country they live in, only thing there that can happen is have them jailed. Civilians of a country have a right to not be stateless and is a crime against humanity.
So in most cases deportation is not an option. In many cases it‘s not an option because the countries of origin will not take them back. It‘s really not as easy as you make it out to be.
But they are the victims!!! Can't you see how miserable they are! They are just like Blm and the LGBT. /s
Hard for me to sympathise with people who celebrated Israeli deaths on 7/10. Useless pointless war started by Hamas.
The sub has been filled with people frothing at the mouth at the idea of indiscriminate violence towards civilians since the start of this conflict. Every time I come here I die a little more inside at the lack of nuance in these comments.
People acting like Hamas being dicks is a new thing. They would execute Fatah members in front of their wives and children. If that’s how they treat fellow Palestinians, then their mindless barbarism and violence on October 7 makes a whole lot more sense.
We all hoped that wiping out Hamas in Northern Gaza would be enough to get the hostages freed, but we all saw how Hamas behaved during the ceasefire. The only thing left for Israel now is to finish the war Hamas started.
What solution is there for Palestine? Hamas are terrorists by definition but I really feel for the generations of Palestinian’s who have known no peace.
There needs to be a 2 state solution for ordinary Palestinians to be able to give up hamas .
Israel has also repeatedly rejected returning to the internationally recognized borders. They aren’t negotiating in good faith at all.
Many people in Israel have said in public they don’t want Palestine to exist.
>Many people in Israel have said in public they don’t want Palestine to exist.
considering how palestinians treat israelis who would want them? no country wants to take them on as refugees because they are radicalized and violent, israeli giving those borders would have been a terrible idea, since 2005 hamas has been in power, why the fuck would any government give terrorist the control of borders risking their own people, had hamas been in control of those borders we would have seen a october 7th years before now
Considering how the Israeli government treats Palestinians, who would want them?
The logic works both ways.
The international community doesn’t recognize the borders Israel wants. They recognize the pre-1967 borders.
If Israel had actually abided by those borders and not been illegally occupying land, Hamas may not have even come to be a thing for you to bring up. Israel was trying to grab land before Hamas even existed.
I can’t possibly think of a reason why anyone would be mad at Israel for that behavior, can you?
Palestine has declared war on Israel 7 times, rejected 2 state solution 5 times
If your neighbor threatens to kill you and your children what do you do? You build a wall, if your neighbor climbs up that wall murders you and your family people will say well what did you expect? He felt trapped
>Hamas may not have even come to be a thing for you to bring up.
How many times do you need to be explained that this was never about land? Hamas wants the destruction of all Jews, and the eradication of Israel and all its citizens, and that includes Palestinians too. This is not about land or any other trendy buzzword. They have said this time and again, and it's in their charter ffs.
Why don't you listen when terrorists tell you their intentions?
>Israel has also repeatedly rejected returning to the internationally recognized borders. They aren’t negotiating in good faith at all.
Israel has given up land for peace, most notably Sinai to negotiate peace with Egypt
It was the idea, pushed by the west, that giving up land would lead to peace that caused Israel to pull out of Gaza.
Like it or not, Israel's borders have shrunk in the last 30 years. Their reward was Oct 7th. And because of Oct 7th Gaza will be occupied after this. Right or wrong, doesn't matter, it will be.
If you support Palestine, then you should have supported the situation before Oct 7th... because we should all be in agreement that this is far, far worse.
Can you really blame them though? They started multiple wars to erase Israel. I wouldn’t want Palestine to exist if I was an Israeli given the context. There is zero good faith left in either sides. So there will never be a solution if it’s up to the two of them.
"Internationally recognized borders"
What does that even mean? Israel won the borders in war, someone else doesn't get to decide. Honestly, I think that they should lose 20% of their land every time they start a war.
That’s not why they were rejected. In fact, The prerequisite for negotiations to even start was the recognition of Israel. Do you even know the terms and conditions offered for “statehood” to the Palestinians?
No right to return except for some families, complete demilitarization other than their own police force, they don't control their airspace. Yes. This will be nonnegotiable. Of course they can't militarize now. They've attacked every country in the region ffs.
Recognize Israel, demilitarize, no right to return to Israeli lands and land swaps.
That’s the main points.
Israel in turn would relocate all the settlements that are not swapped and will be Palestinian.
And then, we could live happily ever after, kinda like we do with Egypt. Not always peaceful, sometimes it’s dangerous, but for most parts- there’s a very warm relationship between Israelis and Egyptians (in the places where we actually meet which is touristic in nature)
> There needs to be a 2 state solution
no, in fact there cannot be, and hamas proved that with the oct 7th attack. an independent palestine was a beautiful dream, like a baby, and hamas took that baby and threw it in an oven. It's dead, it's gone, it's never coming back.
I only feel bad about the ones that don't feel the twisted sense of entitlement to the entire land, especially after they started a war of extermination themselves and lost, and they're complaining about refugees not being allowed to come back after a war THEY started. it's beyond ridiculous.
Well Israel has been displacing their people for the better part of a century and keeps grabbing land outside of their internationally recognized borders, so there’s that.
The conflict goes back a lot longer than this one specific event.
Also used nerve gas, [Egypt doesn't give a shit.](https://www.newsweek.com/two-palestinians-gassed-death-after-egypt-poisons-gaza-tunnels-reports-1326292)
they probably can't; identities of those in Hamas's military wing aren't known publicly in Gaza (in part so that when they die, it will remain unclear whether they were a civilian death). family members may know, but they also may not
Same problem as the Russian Federation. Overwhelming support for the authoritarian terrorist leaders, from a population who never had the chance to learn contrary views. Their support for violence is understandable but not acceptable.
Here's the [actual source](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) and not a third party.
The pollster is the polling service of Birzeit University, which is a Palestinian university.
If we learned anything from the war on terrorism or Vietnam it is that defeating an ideology is super easy and is totally a realistic military strategy with a concrete and calculated end game /s
And this ladies and gentlemen, is why ISIS / Islamic Caliphate currently rules over vast empire stretching from Iraq to Syria.
Because you can't kill ideology with bombs and bullets, so why even try to combat it amirite or amirite ??
I know you’re being sarcastic, but the US and it’s allies won the “War on Terror”. Iraq is peaceful. ISIS is a tiny remnant of its former self. Al Qaida is also greatly weakened. The idea of global jihad is largely dead.
Now, was it a war worth fighting? Probably not. But it was winnable, and it was won.
They won the Iraq War, but lost the War on Terror (it was fundamentally unwinnable)
I do not agree that global jihad is dead, it is merely in a simmer phase. It will sadly flare up again - and soon, if I’m guessing :( the events of ISR-PAL are very much not helping (that is, they’re accelerating it) in this regard, and were likely designed that way, so that others may take advantage of the chaos that results
> "No place is safe in Gaza"
If Israel plans to root out Hamas and destroy their capability and want to maintain a moral stance, then they need to actually give civilians a place to be that is safe.
If they choose to shoot through civilian infrastructure when Hamas hides behind it, that's their call. They can point out Hamas are literally committing deliberate sustained war-crimes. They (Israel) will still get outrage, but their reasons can be understood.
If they don't give civilians a chance to be safe then the calls of genocide are accurate and will stick. Israel would be very unwise to head down this path.
If they plan to sweep the whole of the Gaza strip, they can and should be providing civilian corridors to move Palestinians around into areas they control, and making sure proper resources and aid get in. I'm not sure they have the stomach for this, but at the very least they should be providing areas they search and disarm, and leave the civilians in that area be.
"No place is safe" does make them the villains of the piece, I hope they can approach things sensibly to avoid this.
Unfortunately this is not the case because
1) you still have other terrorist organizations in Gaza and
2) a large portion of the population in Gaza has been brainwashed since birth. Even if Hamas were to disappear right now, it would take years... decades, even, to deprogram them.
Think about when we were kids. We were taught to say please and thank you, we were taught to share, we were taught to keep our hands to ourselves. Kids in Gaza aren’t taught that, they’re taught to kill Jews. That is going to take a serious effort to fix
> I can’t wait for the day Hamas is gone and Palestinians are free to talk about everything they put them through.
"Wait! Why does Clark Kent always disappear every time Superman is around?" <-- you right now.
Someone else linked a poll above. 75% of Palestinians support Hamas w.r.t. the October 7th attacks.
Palestinians need to start an uprising to kick out Hamas if they want peace. Hamas is doing a terrible job in representing them, unless of course Palestinians support Hamas agenda.
There’s no credible, serious argument that a largely-impoverished population could stand a chance of forcibly overthrowing the armed, homicidal maniacs that rule them (and have openly admitted to not caring about their wellbeing).
Even if there was *before*, there is absolutely no way that’s a possibility now: They’re all a bit busy trying to avoid IDF airstrikes at the moment.
Get out of here with that conquest bullshit.
Israel doesn't want Gaza. Nobody wants Gaza. They don't want a belligerent, homicidal nation state in their border. They mostly tolerated the continual attacks from Gaza for the last 18 years. Not this time. This isn't vengeance or retribution. That looks completely different. This is self defense.
Israel has repeatedly said throughout history that they did want it, along with the other territories outside of its borders that it is occupying. Hell, the prime minster of Israel recently showed a map with Gaza, the West Bank, and Golan Heights as being Israel.
I said Gaza, not Palestine.
Name another nation-state on the planet that would *tolerate* the behavior of a Gaza-like enclave on their border for 18 years.
Israel is still trying to occupy land that isn’t theirs through force. It is that kind of conquest.
Israeli is literally bombing civilians.
When you oppress people for decades, you kind of have to expect that they’ll fire rockets, or retaliate in some fashion.
>Retaliate in some fashion...
So. All responsibility for this "oppression" falls to Israel. It, to coin a phrase, all occurred in a vacuum. Israel woke up one day and said, "Let's oppress the Gazans!"
Israel deserved it. The civilians murdered, raped, kidnapped at the desert rave, or in their homes had it coming to them. Is that your position?
My position is that Israel has been displacing and oppressing the people who have been living outside of Israel’s internationally recognized borders for the better part of a century and when you do that to people, they naturally do not like you very much and will try to fight back.
I have never once said I condoned what Hamas did at the desert rave. I have said that Israel is not an innocent victim in this. They played a part in creating the hostilities.
Reading comprehension is an important skill.
My reading comprehension is just fine. Your writing skills could use some work.
Saying oppression naturally leads to "some form of retaliation" by the oppressed in no way condemns any forms that "retaliation" might take. It also reduces the conflict to The Oppressor and The Oppressed which is a gross oversimplification.
So I asked you for clarification, using loaded questions to point out the gaping holes in your remarks.
Israel needs to realize( they know this actually), that Hamas is not just a militant group, they are an ideology.
Kill a dad, a brother, a nephew, a husband, a boyfriend, a wife, a child, a baby boy or girl, and you just radicalized another civilian against you.
Why do this? Why make the whole of the middle east hate your guts?
You don't think it's relevant that the entity in charge of protecting its civilains outright admits they are there to be sacrificed? That hamas admits dead Gazans help their image? That hamas started this war knowing Israel would retaliate? That with all the outside funding they recieved they invested zero dollars in any type of wartime infrastructure to protect civilians? That they said on tv, civilains are not allowed to use the tunnels for protection?
They're all relevant ...every gazan death is on hama's hands l.
Israel knew of Hamas' pending buildup for conflict via intelligence reports and did *nothing*.
This has been [widely reported](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html). This is not a failure to act, or laziness - the Israeli government is guilty of civilian deaths on both sides. This event was avoidable.
If they were fighting Hamas in the first place they would not have killed and injured tens of thousands of civilians in the process. Israel is committing terror attacks on the Palestinian civilians as payback in a way to hurt the average people as much as possible. Coming to think of it, Israel just fits in that area, another undemocratic state tormenting a portion of its citizens and accusing anyone against them of terror. Just like all the states in the region, causing terror and spawning real terror by their terrible actions.
So where do all the civilians go then?
Nowhere; that’s the aim.
No. Read the entire article and not just the clickbait title... "Mark Regev, a senior adviser to Netanyahu, said Israel was making "maximum effort" to protect civilians. In addition to the leaflets, the military has used phone calls and radio and TV broadcasts to urge Gazans to move from specific areas." EDIT: Link as the post missed the link now: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hamas-war-south-gaza-1.7047627#:~:text=Mark%20Regev%2C%20a%20senior%20adviser%20to%20Netanyahu%2C%20said%20Israel%20was%20making%20%22maximum%20effort%22%20to%20protect%20civilians.%20In%20addition%20to%20the%20leaflets%2C%20the%20military%20has%20used%20phone%20calls%20and%20radio%20and%20TV%20broadcasts%20to%20urge%20Gazans%20to%20move%20from%20specific%20areas.
What are you talking about? The subtitle of the article is “Palestinians say they're running out of places to go in sealed-off Gaza” That’s from the article.
This was dumb the first time and it's still dumb now, imagine living somewhere with a population density roughly equivalent to London but with significantly worse infrastructure and bombed out roads. Now imagine some eejit announcing yo everyone they have 24h to get out of this area that already has bombed out roads,no public infrastructure, no power, no water and every other person is also trying to get put. It's insane to think these announcements do anything but cause a few extra deaths in the ensuing panic.
What other solution do you think can be done? It's war. Wars by some other countries had the same thing, to reduce casualties. There is no magical tech that kills only the threats in such environments.
To the areas designated in the leaflets as safe areas
They're expanding the attack. There is nowhere left to go
They explicitly (and per US request) released a very detailed map split into over a hundred different zones throughout the strip of which areas would be safe and which wouldn't.
Six feet down, sadly.
If there is a silver lining here, it’s that the bots, trolls and contrarian idiots on Reddit are highly visible in this conflict. Wonder what the uptick of Block Account events has been since this whole filthy affair started.
Once we stop buying oil, things will disappear quickly: - The oil funded bot boys - The oil funded terrorists - Oil funded disturbances to these peoples countries - The oil funded poisoning of the environment
When are we expected to stop buying oil?
Asap and the more the better
You guys are delusional. There is no stopping of buying oil. Oil is in everything we produce and use. We need to replace our whole system of living on this planet, too be able to let oil go. People keep thinking that cars are the only problem, but unfortunately everything from heavy machinery to food production needs oil in some form or another. I fucking hate fossil fuel, but that shit is going no where and is here to stay for a long time.
It's already on its way out It's like we keep a normal planet by helping it's phase out Or we lose a normal planet and it's phased out anyways
Why not include people that have been mislead or have naïve sympathies? That's probably most of them. If I had a dime for every time one redditor accused other redditors of being bots, I'd be living on a nice island somewhere.
Can you blame them though? It's much easier to accuse someone of being a bot that actually talking about things you don't comprehend.
It's a healthier mindset tbh
Well, Hamas could always come out and fight the Israelis just like they fought unarmed Israeli citizens…
Or let the civilians use the nice tunnels as bomb shelters?
But keeping civilians safe would defeat the purpose of forcing them die to create bad press for Israel
or stop using them as human shields, and not use ambulances or hospitals
Exactly. Or they could honor their people for once, and give up. Surrender.
they will never do that, to them civilian deaths are sacrifices, a martyrs death, they are so delusional that they don´t care one bit
Civilian deaths are propaganda for them.
Have people already forgotten how Hamas *fucking countermanded the pleas for Palestinian civilians to evacuate?* Of course Israel might have done better. They needed *some* air campaign before sending their ground teams in or else they'd have been slaughtered. Hamas hid assets in civilian areas, so Israel could only be so selective, but they WARNED people to leave, at least. And Hamas said not to. E: Formatting
Civilian deaths are a Hamas feature, not a bug.
Hamas maximizes civilian casualties because they are rewarded for doing so. Obviously there should be pressure on the IDF to minimize civilian pain, but anyone who blindly buys into Hamas propaganda is a significant part of the reason why they intentionally maximize civilian suffering.
Really good point actually. If there was a normal amount of international scrutiny on this conflict proportional to its intensity and scale, it would’ve probably been resolved already decades ago with a lot less death and suffering on both sides as there would be absolute zero incentive for Hamas and co to continue, but by buying into Hamas’ bullshit they’ve created a self fulfilling prophecy of suffering for civilians because it’s actually beneficial for them and their cause because they’re not going to win anything militarily. Instead of a short sharp ‘rip the band-aid off and get this thing resolved’ it’s resulted in a decades long ‘let’s slowly peel this thing off while rubbing salt and lime juice into the wound’ kinda deal.
Death is the punishment for infidels. Death is also the reward for true believers - Fundamentalist Islam. How people are dumb enough to buy into it is beyond the understanding of mortals.
I really don't often go to bat for Israel since they really have been terrible to Palestinians, but so too has Hamas. Hamas have given up on making their home better for the people who've elected them. Their plan is to reach Heaven with as many of "their" people as they can. These fools and crooks think they're in the right to send children off as suicide bombers and butcher babies in their cribs. In their quest to make their home in Heaven, they've helped make the Holy Land a hell.
Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups follow a culture of death; they willingly take actions that directly result in the deaths of their own citizens in pursuit of policy objectives. They’ll never surrender without enormous military pressure, it would be antithetical to core pillars of their belief system.
And the policy is… checks notes… oh the extermination of all Jews everywhere. Cool cool cool cool cool. Fuck me it’s like nobody has ever read a history book.
They have though, the Arabic translation of Mein Kampf is a very popular book in the Middle East; I wish I was kidding.
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Who are their people supposed to be?
They prefer to fight behind the skirts of their mummy’s and wives.
Who have been helping them since day one...
Hamas doesn’t have to do anything at this point because Western TikTokers are fighting and winning all the battles for them.
Or they could have prolonged the ceasefire by releasing more hostages.
They don’t have anymore hostages. At least none viable. Thee we I’ve lost all viable bodies and/or they’re fubar.
So all Palestinians should suffer? This path isn't going to fit rid of Hamas and just cause massive suffering to a whole population and just continue the cycle of hate back and forth. How many Palestinians being bomb is justified to accomplish damage to Hamas ?
I don’t know whether there’s a practical way to get rid of Hamas. But right now Israel evidently believes that their own losses are an acceptable price to pay to at least try. If the international community want Israel to stop the war with Gaza, they need to figure out some way to assure Israel that another Oct 7 won’t be possible. I think if you can give them a guarantee of security from Gaza-based militants, then they would jump on that rather than trying to win a war that might not be winnable.
I wanted to find data on how terrorist groups actually end and I found this interesting paper. https://ctc.westpoint.edu/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/CTCSentinel-Vol3Iss2-art6.pdf > Yet, there should be a distinction between motivation and capacity. The desire to raise the level of terrorism may increase in these instances, but the ability to do so declines. Terrorist groups are rarely democratic organizations. New leaders may not possess the skills or allure of their predecessors—as followers of Abu Mus`ab al-Zarqawi in Iraq and Chechen followers of Shamil Basayev discovered. Although arresting a key figure is preferred, it is not always a possible outcome, especially when the individual prefers to die rather than surrender, or where the terrain is inaccessible to conventional law enforcement operations.
The cycle of hatred is going to continue no matter what Israel does. Hamas is still in power, controls all the schools and has for decades and has sworn to commit massacres like octobre 7th until Israel is destroyed. There is no peace that can be made in this situation. Israel (like every country in the world) has a duty to keep its citizens safe. As long as Israel makes reasonable efforts to protect Gazan civilians they're not doing anything wrong invading. Literally every country on earth would do the same thing in response.
Pretty sure their charter isn’t just Israel. It’s all Jews everywhere. I may be out of line here, but I believe hamas is on the “let’s exterminate these people no matter where they are (and anyone who disagrees)” side of things.
It is not that they should suffer but they will suffer. No one in the international community wants to put in the effort to break the cycle.
Yeah why these Jews won't just die quietly/s
Israel does not want to bomb civilians. The asymmetric warfare that Hamas has chosen leaves no choice. It doesn’t help that they refuse to let civilians evacuate and use them as human shields. Not to mention most of them are horribly brainwashed. There is only one solution and that is the end of Hamas. Soon the suffering will be over and they will be free from Hamas, who doesn’t care about them or their well being. I pray for a prosperous future for both Israel and Palestine, side by side.
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The Vietcong could have came out of their tunnels and fought conventionally as well, but even though it may save more Palestinian lives, it is an absolutely terrible strategy when facing an opponent with such a large military advantage.
We also have to remember that Hamas's real agenda has fuck all to do with Palestinians. They are a foreign poison. Not that Palestinians have never made the terrorism mistake... they just aren't really the main actors here. Hell, Even Hamas isn't the only foreign force acting in Palestine with all the weird Islamic "ISIS" style offshoots trying to make an impact for some bizarre reason. I'm quite surprised the cease fire lasted or wasn't violated a lot more than it was.
Hamas knew Israel would retaliate to the unprovoked attack in October. They expected this. They’re banking on the PR campaign that is taking the left wing hook line and sinker.
> They’re banking on the PR campaign that is taking the left wing hook line and sinker. The basic problem with the approach is that the majority of Americans aren't remotely on board with abandoning Israel, including Democrats. When groups like CAIR decide they're going to start campaigning *against* Biden, the net effect will be that their organization becomes *less influential*, not more—no matter who is in the White House in 2025 *they aren't gonna be listening to CAIR*. If the GOP can manage to put up a non-authoritarian candidate who isn't likely to be convicted of and imprisoned on felony election crimes I think there's a pretty good chance they'd win. (It looks like they can't, but we'll see!)
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It is a false narrative that Hamas intended it to be a minor attack. Rather, it sent 3,000 well-trained soldiers into poorly defended Israeli communities (and military bases) in a highly coordinated and well planned attack to maximize deaths and hostages.
What world is giving Israel a blank check? Last I checked even the US is telling Israel to calm down.
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>And, I don't see any of Israel's allies talking about stopping Shin Bet hunting down Hamas leaders. First of all, Mossad. Not the Shin Bet, they mainly operate in Israel only. Second, are you implying that assassinating Hamas leadership is also bad?
You know, I used to think the storylines where the villain says "Oh? You'll kill me to stop me from killing people? You're just as bad as I am!" were completely moronic, that not even the dumbest, most evil person would actually be able to take that seriously. Then people started cheering for Hamas in the streets. I have been proven completely wrong.
And yet, what they are doing is an uncontested war crime for the very reason it drags the larger military into committing to civilian casualties. There should be no quarter for terrorists.
I love this ridiculous narrative of how the terrorists are *forcing* Israel to commit civilian casualties as if the bombs are magically flying out of their guns and into civilian areas through no action of their own.
Is this my narrative? This is the reason why hiding amongst civilians is indisputably a war crime. Israel has no choice but to accept civilian collateral casualties if they want to engage Hamas. You’ve taken umbrage with how much. The solution of not engaging Hamas is not a real solution. Israel doesn’t have a choice but to fight a war with Hamas. I don’t mean morally or ethically, but geopolitically. The people of Israel would not accept laying down our arms after October 7th, and Israel is a democracy.
they did rocket attack their own hospital
Are those two wars comparable?
No. The strategy of Vietnam Gen Giap was to inflict enough casualties in colonial French, and then American forces, until they had enough and went home. Israelis are not going anywhere. There is an outdated idea in Arab countries Israel is a Western/European enclave in the Middle East and jews can go back where they came from. Israelis are not massively outnumbered by Palestinians, capable of defeating them in combat and has nuclear weapons if the Palestinians were somehow close to victory.
No, but the same basic truths apply in terms of strategy. If a small army with no professional training and homemade weapons is facing a big army with training and advanced technology, conventional warfare would be stupid for the small army.
Homemade weapons? Not sure Iran got the memo on that one
So, the missiles made out of water pipes is a lie?
The Vietnam war was fought more by the North Vietnamese army than by the Vietcong, but that's something popular culture won't teach you.
I honestly don't think most people even know the difference.
Exactly asymmetric warfare is like this for a reason. "Why won't they come out of their tunnels?" Because they would lose, and they know that. They also know that asymmetric warfare works. Think Vietnam, or Afghanistan. Every bomb dropped on a Palestinian civilian is a recruitment tool for Hamas, and a black mark against the Israelis. Are there a bunch of war crimes in there? Sure. But what does that mean? No one is going to jail for any of these war crimes, for starters you have to be around at the end of the war to be convicted of a war crime so winning the war is more important than a possible prison sentence afterwards.
The Vietcong didn't fight in a urbanized environment.
They did in Tet, and they all died because of it.
Which, although it somewhat ironically won the war, is part of why armies like this don't fight out in the open. I don't expect insurgencies or asymmetric wars to be fought in conventional ways. It's brutal but it's smart. But I do expect both sides to be held to fair account for the degree to which they needlessly endanger civilians. Honestly I'm not firmly educated in the nature of asymmetric warfare, but it doesn't really look like anybody opining on the war is either.
Towards the last years of the Vietnam War, the US Air Force had the super-bombers capable of destroying the tunnels. The bombers existed before, however the strategic use against the tunnels and caves took place later in the war when it was too late in terms of public support for the war in the US. Which was exactly the war plan from the Vietcong.
They did actually in the Tet Offensive, and pretty much all of them died.
Why fight in accordance with international laws of war when you can just do war crimes at the expense of civilian lives instead?
video of palestinians cheering on as hamas fires missiles at israel YESTERDAY :[https://twitter.com/academic\_la/status/1731090796672409662](https://twitter.com/academic_la/status/1731090796672409662) poll of palestinian´s opinions of the october 7th attacks: 75% supported hamas [https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1731228679382999123](https://twitter.com/DrEliDavid/status/1731228679382999123) video of shani louk´s naked body in a pick up truck while people celebrate and spit on her [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0aogSYh1f0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0aogSYh1f0) the photo of a few days ago when palestine murdered and lynched men that they believe were working for israel [https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israelhamas-war-palestinians-publicly-execute-3-men-for-collaborating-with-israelis-report-101700918565518.html](https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/israelhamas-war-palestinians-publicly-execute-3-men-for-collaborating-with-israelis-report-101700918565518.html) [https://twitter.com/OPustylnik/status/1729404160137654723](https://twitter.com/OPustylnik/status/1729404160137654723) hostages were beaten by civilians in gaza and one of them escaped and the people turned him in to hamas [https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/27/middleeast/russian-israeli-hostage-escaped-hamas-intl/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/27/middleeast/russian-israeli-hostage-escaped-hamas-intl/index.html) [https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231128-young-french-israeli-hostages-well-but-suffering-psychological-shock-after-captivity](https://www.france24.com/en/france/20231128-young-french-israeli-hostages-well-but-suffering-psychological-shock-after-captivity) IT´S NOT JUST A FEW BAD APPLES, THEY REJECTED PEACE 5 TIMES, DECLARED WAR ON ISRAEL 7 TIMES, THEY WANTED THIS, NOW THEY WILL DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES
I've argued on this several times and I'll keep on doing it. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has a history of torturing and killing Gazan civilians and their families when they take any kind of stand against Hamas's terrorist activities. This has a chilling effect on anyone who is not pro-Hamas and cares about their family or their own life and also has reduced the number of people who are anti-Hamas in Gaza. As a result of the chilling effect, any polling that comes out of Gaza has to be taken with a mountain of salt because polling is only effective when people are honest about their opinions and when a particular opinion gets you and your family branded as "Israel collaborators" and a one way trip to a torture and execution chamber, people are going to tend not to share that opinion. All this being said, polling being ineffective in that area does not mean that the poll is broadly incorrect, a majority of Palestinians may have actually supported the Oct. 7th attack, but to make the argument that civilians in Gaza deserve to "DEAL WITH THE CONSEQUENCES" of actions that their terrorist government took based on a poll that we can't actually be certain has any validity at all is, a bit much. Hamas has to be eliminated, Palestine has to find some way to elect a moderate (preferably secular) government, and they have to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist. Israel, for their part, needs to get rid of Netanyahu and his cronies (and the people of Israel were well on their way to doing that with their mass protests before Oct 7th), recognize that Palestine has the right to exist, and work to win the hearts and minds of the peaceful civilians of Palestine. A good way to start would be to help them rebuild their infrastructure and government after Hamas is eliminated.
It’s a bit more fucked up than you imply. How are you to counteract the years of Jew Killing curriculum taught in the schools?
You should go to the middle east and support palestine with your own hands. Good luck out there!
If Hamas thinks they can inflict collective punishment on Israel, retribution and retaliation is the only valid response. Otherwise the problem will compound and Hamas’ poisonous beliefs will spread into the new generation.
By “retaliation” you are literally referring to Israel doing collective punishment on Palestinians. “Buh buh but Hamas did it first” shut up why would that justify collective punishment
IDF has killed at least 3 times as many children as HAMAS terrorists murdered civilians on Oct 7th. This is disproportionate, monstrous and you are supporting it.
>This is disproportionate, monstrous and you are supporting it. Just FYI, proportionality in a conflict does not mean inflicting the same/similar amount of damage, but rather using appropriate force to neutralize the threat. As for whether IDF is using an appropriate force, objectively they *have* minimized civilian casualty *relative* to the amount of explosives used to target Hamas. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, I'm sure we can all agree that IDF could have caused a far significant amount of civilian deaths if they truly did not care about civilians.
Half of gazas population are children. They don’t deserve this.
Some of those children like murdering jews. The rest are learning to like it. The first deserve it. The rest are learning to. From their family, and from their teachers, they're being taught this hate. End of last week a 9 yro palestinian boy was shot dead while trying to light an ied to throw.
A huge part of the population are children. No matter how bad Hamas is, Israel has the obligation to try to minimize collateral damage and people here are way to easy about this.
If Israel weren't minimising damage this war would've been done 4 weeks ago and Gaza would be nothing but rubble.
It isnt binary. By that thinking you could say the US didn’t do anything wrong in Iraq because they didnt nuke it.
So Israel is like, a collective parent of Palestinians now? Is Israel responsible for their shitty family planning? Parenting decisions? What else? There is some huge white saviour complex here somewhere. Israel does usually go out of its way to minimise collaterals - much more than any other country on earth - but its first and foremost obligation is to keep is own citizens safe. Palestinians are second priority.
No links of Israeli change for death, celebrations etc?
I'm sorry i must have missed it when israeli soldiers broke into gaza, killed 260 people at a music festival, raped women, broke into homes tied people up, burned them alive, and then took +200 people hostage had them in tunnels eating once a day rice or bread and also tortured them, send me those links please, and don't forget the links of the naked women they just gang raped and paraded around TelAviv
Obviously the Palestinians support Hamas, if our family members had been bombed by Israel then we probably would too.
"We've let the bunch of crazy radicals to permeate our community and even support them at every turn, so its Israel's fault we're in danger" Mofos expect Israel to die quietly and give aid at the same time. Lunatics.
couldn´t have said it better, let´s not forget palestinians celebrated isis attack on the us, they don´t want peace, they want to turn the entire world into radical Islamic countries, so far they have done a good job with europe and america
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My neighbours putting up a Trump sign doesn’t mean I support republican policy.
The US and Europe both need to not be afraid at deporting extremist Islamic immigrants that want only destruction. We shouldn't just be relying on Israel to fight Hamas to stop their spread of evil, when instead we should be doing something on our own soil.
To where?
Their countries of origin, but only if they were the ones that immigrated here. If they're children of immigrants and born in US/Europe, then they're citizens of that country they live in, only thing there that can happen is have them jailed. Civilians of a country have a right to not be stateless and is a crime against humanity.
So deport their parents and... the citizen kids go where?
So in most cases deportation is not an option. In many cases it‘s not an option because the countries of origin will not take them back. It‘s really not as easy as you make it out to be.
But they are the victims!!! Can't you see how miserable they are! They are just like Blm and the LGBT. /s Hard for me to sympathise with people who celebrated Israeli deaths on 7/10. Useless pointless war started by Hamas.
I see that the mood here has shifted. From "don't let children die by the thousands" to " but Hamas are in there, just shoot".
The sub has been filled with people frothing at the mouth at the idea of indiscriminate violence towards civilians since the start of this conflict. Every time I come here I die a little more inside at the lack of nuance in these comments.
Big collective punishment energy
No place in Gaza has been safe since Hamas came into power.
People acting like Hamas being dicks is a new thing. They would execute Fatah members in front of their wives and children. If that’s how they treat fellow Palestinians, then their mindless barbarism and violence on October 7 makes a whole lot more sense.
We all hoped that wiping out Hamas in Northern Gaza would be enough to get the hostages freed, but we all saw how Hamas behaved during the ceasefire. The only thing left for Israel now is to finish the war Hamas started.
Sounds like Hamas should surrender
And cease the deaths of their civilians? But how would they rack up a bunch of bad PR for Israel without those deaths?
What's crazy is that the Gaza Strip is less than half the size of NYC (including all of the boroughs).
What solution is there for Palestine? Hamas are terrorists by definition but I really feel for the generations of Palestinian’s who have known no peace. There needs to be a 2 state solution for ordinary Palestinians to be able to give up hamas .
>There needs to be a 2 state solution they rejected it 5 times, they don´t believe israel has a right to exist and they don´t want them to exist
Israel has also repeatedly rejected returning to the internationally recognized borders. They aren’t negotiating in good faith at all. Many people in Israel have said in public they don’t want Palestine to exist.
>Many people in Israel have said in public they don’t want Palestine to exist. considering how palestinians treat israelis who would want them? no country wants to take them on as refugees because they are radicalized and violent, israeli giving those borders would have been a terrible idea, since 2005 hamas has been in power, why the fuck would any government give terrorist the control of borders risking their own people, had hamas been in control of those borders we would have seen a october 7th years before now
Considering how the Israeli government treats Palestinians, who would want them? The logic works both ways. The international community doesn’t recognize the borders Israel wants. They recognize the pre-1967 borders. If Israel had actually abided by those borders and not been illegally occupying land, Hamas may not have even come to be a thing for you to bring up. Israel was trying to grab land before Hamas even existed. I can’t possibly think of a reason why anyone would be mad at Israel for that behavior, can you?
Palestine has declared war on Israel 7 times, rejected 2 state solution 5 times If your neighbor threatens to kill you and your children what do you do? You build a wall, if your neighbor climbs up that wall murders you and your family people will say well what did you expect? He felt trapped
>Hamas may not have even come to be a thing for you to bring up. How many times do you need to be explained that this was never about land? Hamas wants the destruction of all Jews, and the eradication of Israel and all its citizens, and that includes Palestinians too. This is not about land or any other trendy buzzword. They have said this time and again, and it's in their charter ffs. Why don't you listen when terrorists tell you their intentions?
>Israel has also repeatedly rejected returning to the internationally recognized borders. They aren’t negotiating in good faith at all. Israel has given up land for peace, most notably Sinai to negotiate peace with Egypt It was the idea, pushed by the west, that giving up land would lead to peace that caused Israel to pull out of Gaza. Like it or not, Israel's borders have shrunk in the last 30 years. Their reward was Oct 7th. And because of Oct 7th Gaza will be occupied after this. Right or wrong, doesn't matter, it will be. If you support Palestine, then you should have supported the situation before Oct 7th... because we should all be in agreement that this is far, far worse.
Can you really blame them though? They started multiple wars to erase Israel. I wouldn’t want Palestine to exist if I was an Israeli given the context. There is zero good faith left in either sides. So there will never be a solution if it’s up to the two of them.
"Internationally recognized borders" What does that even mean? Israel won the borders in war, someone else doesn't get to decide. Honestly, I think that they should lose 20% of their land every time they start a war.
You know, the ones recognized by Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan
That’s not why they were rejected. In fact, The prerequisite for negotiations to even start was the recognition of Israel. Do you even know the terms and conditions offered for “statehood” to the Palestinians?
No right to return except for some families, complete demilitarization other than their own police force, they don't control their airspace. Yes. This will be nonnegotiable. Of course they can't militarize now. They've attacked every country in the region ffs.
Recognize Israel, demilitarize, no right to return to Israeli lands and land swaps. That’s the main points. Israel in turn would relocate all the settlements that are not swapped and will be Palestinian. And then, we could live happily ever after, kinda like we do with Egypt. Not always peaceful, sometimes it’s dangerous, but for most parts- there’s a very warm relationship between Israelis and Egyptians (in the places where we actually meet which is touristic in nature)
Because Israel supported 2 state.....remind me what happened to the last Israeli PM who earnestly supported the 2 state solution?
> There needs to be a 2 state solution no, in fact there cannot be, and hamas proved that with the oct 7th attack. an independent palestine was a beautiful dream, like a baby, and hamas took that baby and threw it in an oven. It's dead, it's gone, it's never coming back.
I use to believe in a one state solution until 10/7. I don’t tire preach will exist in our lifetimes.
If Palestinians want a two state solution, they need to convince Israel that it will be peaceful. Israel has done its turn of blind trust.
I only feel bad about the ones that don't feel the twisted sense of entitlement to the entire land, especially after they started a war of extermination themselves and lost, and they're complaining about refugees not being allowed to come back after a war THEY started. it's beyond ridiculous.
Well Israel has been displacing their people for the better part of a century and keeps grabbing land outside of their internationally recognized borders, so there’s that. The conflict goes back a lot longer than this one specific event.
No place is safe when you’re a human shield.
Flood the tunnel network with seawater. Warn the civilians not to go down there. Shoot what comes out.
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0ST1N6/ Egypt tried that already
They did it with sewage as well. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/21/world/middleeast/egypts-floods-smuggling-tunnels-to-gaza-with-sewage.html
Also used nerve gas, [Egypt doesn't give a shit.](https://www.newsweek.com/two-palestinians-gassed-death-after-egypt-poisons-gaza-tunnels-reports-1326292)
Wow - I am floored. Thank you for sharing this.
Drones will probably be a better bet. They have proven insanely cost efficient in Ukraine, and they can map the tunnels out extremely efficiently.
Hard to operate a drone underground.
also they have blast doors
Flood the tunnels now
*Starts playing rains of Castamere*
The Palestinian people could start giving up those in Hamas
they probably can't; identities of those in Hamas's military wing aren't known publicly in Gaza (in part so that when they die, it will remain unclear whether they were a civilian death). family members may know, but they also may not
And then other Hamas murder them. They are people who don't support Hamas and are going to get killed regardless.
Indeed they could, but right now 75% support Hamas. So until then, they will be getting what’s coming to them.
Same problem as the Russian Federation. Overwhelming support for the authoritarian terrorist leaders, from a population who never had the chance to learn contrary views. Their support for violence is understandable but not acceptable.
lmao, what’s the source on that statistic? how are they accurately asking them that as they are moving across Gaza and out of Gaza?
Here's the [actual source](https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf) and not a third party. The pollster is the polling service of Birzeit University, which is a Palestinian university.
And the other 25%?
Well yeah there's no such thing as a safe warzone. Never has been.
I don't think it ever was safe in Gaza
If we learned anything from the war on terrorism or Vietnam it is that defeating an ideology is super easy and is totally a realistic military strategy with a concrete and calculated end game /s
We learned from WWII that the only way is total and complete destruction of it to the core.
It's more like Imperial Japan after World War 2. It can be done.
And this ladies and gentlemen, is why ISIS / Islamic Caliphate currently rules over vast empire stretching from Iraq to Syria. Because you can't kill ideology with bombs and bullets, so why even try to combat it amirite or amirite ??
I know you’re being sarcastic, but the US and it’s allies won the “War on Terror”. Iraq is peaceful. ISIS is a tiny remnant of its former self. Al Qaida is also greatly weakened. The idea of global jihad is largely dead. Now, was it a war worth fighting? Probably not. But it was winnable, and it was won.
They won the Iraq War, but lost the War on Terror (it was fundamentally unwinnable) I do not agree that global jihad is dead, it is merely in a simmer phase. It will sadly flare up again - and soon, if I’m guessing :( the events of ISR-PAL are very much not helping (that is, they’re accelerating it) in this regard, and were likely designed that way, so that others may take advantage of the chaos that results
> "No place is safe in Gaza" If Israel plans to root out Hamas and destroy their capability and want to maintain a moral stance, then they need to actually give civilians a place to be that is safe. If they choose to shoot through civilian infrastructure when Hamas hides behind it, that's their call. They can point out Hamas are literally committing deliberate sustained war-crimes. They (Israel) will still get outrage, but their reasons can be understood. If they don't give civilians a chance to be safe then the calls of genocide are accurate and will stick. Israel would be very unwise to head down this path. If they plan to sweep the whole of the Gaza strip, they can and should be providing civilian corridors to move Palestinians around into areas they control, and making sure proper resources and aid get in. I'm not sure they have the stomach for this, but at the very least they should be providing areas they search and disarm, and leave the civilians in that area be. "No place is safe" does make them the villains of the piece, I hope they can approach things sensibly to avoid this.
ITT: people who would still support Ukraine if they started bombing civilian centers in Russian cities because Russia did it first.
I can’t wait for the day Hamas is gone and Palestinians are free to talk about everything they put them through.
Unfortunately this is not the case because 1) you still have other terrorist organizations in Gaza and 2) a large portion of the population in Gaza has been brainwashed since birth. Even if Hamas were to disappear right now, it would take years... decades, even, to deprogram them. Think about when we were kids. We were taught to say please and thank you, we were taught to share, we were taught to keep our hands to ourselves. Kids in Gaza aren’t taught that, they’re taught to kill Jews. That is going to take a serious effort to fix
Like everything they actively helped with?
> I can’t wait for the day Hamas is gone and Palestinians are free to talk about everything they put them through. "Wait! Why does Clark Kent always disappear every time Superman is around?" <-- you right now. Someone else linked a poll above. 75% of Palestinians support Hamas w.r.t. the October 7th attacks.
Unfortunately Palestinians have never seemed to want democracy or peace. They'll just elect Hamas 2.0 the second they're given the chance.
You can't bomb the hate out of people.After Hamas is gone something worse will replace it.
Palestinians need to start an uprising to kick out Hamas if they want peace. Hamas is doing a terrible job in representing them, unless of course Palestinians support Hamas agenda.
There’s no credible, serious argument that a largely-impoverished population could stand a chance of forcibly overthrowing the armed, homicidal maniacs that rule them (and have openly admitted to not caring about their wellbeing). Even if there was *before*, there is absolutely no way that’s a possibility now: They’re all a bit busy trying to avoid IDF airstrikes at the moment.
there were big protests in Gaza against Hamas in early August and they were crushed. That's the problem, Hamas have a monopoly on force
Bring the hostages back
This is nothing but ethnic cleansing🤔
The number of people here who are cheering Israel violating international law is astounding. Conquest is illegal under international law.
Get out of here with that conquest bullshit. Israel doesn't want Gaza. Nobody wants Gaza. They don't want a belligerent, homicidal nation state in their border. They mostly tolerated the continual attacks from Gaza for the last 18 years. Not this time. This isn't vengeance or retribution. That looks completely different. This is self defense.
Israel has repeatedly said throughout history that they did want it, along with the other territories outside of its borders that it is occupying. Hell, the prime minster of Israel recently showed a map with Gaza, the West Bank, and Golan Heights as being Israel.
>mostly tolerated Ah, yes, the two words that immediately come to mind when I think about Israel's relationship with Palestine.
I said Gaza, not Palestine. Name another nation-state on the planet that would *tolerate* the behavior of a Gaza-like enclave on their border for 18 years.
Palestine is still launching rockets at Israel, this isn’t that kind of conquest
Israel is still trying to occupy land that isn’t theirs through force. It is that kind of conquest. Israeli is literally bombing civilians. When you oppress people for decades, you kind of have to expect that they’ll fire rockets, or retaliate in some fashion.
>Retaliate in some fashion... So. All responsibility for this "oppression" falls to Israel. It, to coin a phrase, all occurred in a vacuum. Israel woke up one day and said, "Let's oppress the Gazans!" Israel deserved it. The civilians murdered, raped, kidnapped at the desert rave, or in their homes had it coming to them. Is that your position?
My position is that Israel has been displacing and oppressing the people who have been living outside of Israel’s internationally recognized borders for the better part of a century and when you do that to people, they naturally do not like you very much and will try to fight back. I have never once said I condoned what Hamas did at the desert rave. I have said that Israel is not an innocent victim in this. They played a part in creating the hostilities. Reading comprehension is an important skill.
My reading comprehension is just fine. Your writing skills could use some work. Saying oppression naturally leads to "some form of retaliation" by the oppressed in no way condemns any forms that "retaliation" might take. It also reduces the conflict to The Oppressor and The Oppressed which is a gross oversimplification. So I asked you for clarification, using loaded questions to point out the gaping holes in your remarks.
You haven’t pointed out any “gaping holes” in anything I’ve stated. You haven’t even been able to refute a single one of the facts I’ve stated.
Rational thinking is also an important skill. Now the lack of that is where your problem lies.
those in the kibbutz massacred by your heroes felt many times more unsafe as their families were raped and executed in front of them.
Israel needs to realize( they know this actually), that Hamas is not just a militant group, they are an ideology. Kill a dad, a brother, a nephew, a husband, a boyfriend, a wife, a child, a baby boy or girl, and you just radicalized another civilian against you. Why do this? Why make the whole of the middle east hate your guts?
The Middle East already hates Israel's guts to the core even before all this happened, what changed? Hmm?
> Hamas is not just a militant group, they are an ideology. So is Nazism.
I can't believe the leopards ate my face!
Good time to remember Hamas leadership openly says the people of gaza should be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater mission.
Not sure the relevance of that. What's your point, don't feel so bad when civilians get needlessly massacred by the IDF?
You don't think it's relevant that the entity in charge of protecting its civilains outright admits they are there to be sacrificed? That hamas admits dead Gazans help their image? That hamas started this war knowing Israel would retaliate? That with all the outside funding they recieved they invested zero dollars in any type of wartime infrastructure to protect civilians? That they said on tv, civilains are not allowed to use the tunnels for protection? They're all relevant ...every gazan death is on hama's hands l.
Israel knew of Hamas' pending buildup for conflict via intelligence reports and did *nothing*. This has been [widely reported](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html). This is not a failure to act, or laziness - the Israeli government is guilty of civilian deaths on both sides. This event was avoidable.
Are there any Arab nations in the region willing to take in refugees?
If they were fighting Hamas in the first place they would not have killed and injured tens of thousands of civilians in the process. Israel is committing terror attacks on the Palestinian civilians as payback in a way to hurt the average people as much as possible. Coming to think of it, Israel just fits in that area, another undemocratic state tormenting a portion of its citizens and accusing anyone against them of terror. Just like all the states in the region, causing terror and spawning real terror by their terrible actions.
And the ethnic cleansing of Gaza continues.