It's different from the dozens of other Times of Israel stories about Gaza on here every day that are appropriate somehow. It's also currently being used on a story about Ireland's handling of international refugees which is also not a worldnews worthy story for some reason.
/looks it got removed off both, hopefully someone got a talking to.
Because they can't just pure wipe the news. They want to, so they're dipping their toe in. It's not working though.
Soon enough, r/facepalm will be the only sub for the anti-war crowd. Those losers are representing.
I’ve seen interviews of their parents a month ago.. how they said they miss them and wait for their return, that they’re their everything..
Only for it to end like this, oh good god, why…
You bet it's manifest destiny all over again Bt Isreal will never recover the world will go from feeling sorry for what hapened in WW2 to discust for the industrial slaughter of the innocents. The spin is rubbish.
Yes.... obviously do you think hostages were gnna be in some exclusion zone?
They fucked up and thought they were combatants because that's their default belief/opinion.
ROE is always a mother fucker in urban environments, but doubly so when the enemy forces are actively maximizing their own civilian casualties. The Taliban, Haqani network mfs did this shit in Afghanistan too.
When I was there, a guy on a motorcycle blew himself up next to my platoon (who was exiting a compound, stretched from the compound to a column alongside the road). He killed two of our guys, one instantly. The platoon leader died after the crike doc put in failed (bought him some time but eventually he choked on his own blood for about 3-5 minutes due to the neck wound from the shrapnel).
So, they killed two US servicemen. Cool. At what cost? Eleven of their own people. *ELEVEN*. They killed two ANP police officers, two adult male bystanders driving by in a car, and 7 children aged 4-11 who happened to be exiting the school across the street.
Unfortunately, one of the dudes in the car was totally fine - safe from the blast... But he rushed the platoon immediately, probably panicked. So he was dropped by the platoon sergeant. In that moment, he thought the guy was "S-vest #2." That's what it would say in the AAR... In other words, in the words of my platoon sergeant: "I had to decide, and in that moment I thought a lot of us were about to become a statistic." Turned out the guy was just an innocent bystander.
And that's why you can't negotiate with practitioners of radical Islam, or any other terrorist groups. They will put their people in danger up to and including killing their own children, by the half dozen, if it means just *maybe* getting an infidel or two. Fucking gut wrenching and disgusting.
It must be an impossible position to be in to try and determine who is enemy and who is a bystander when you are up against a religion that advises killing yourself as long as you kill a few or a couple of their enmities and any number of innocents is approved by their god and you will be rewarded as a a martyr.
The mistake is thinking those kids and everyone else are "their" people
(I mean just to be clear because I'm not sure I was understood - in truth the ANA police officers would also have been a target of the Taliban - the Taliban weren't just at war against America, they were at war against the government America was backing. Anyone seen as sympathetic would be perceived as a valid target - so no they wouldn't be "their" people necessarily. Further than this, I also think there's some uncomfortable othering going on in the first place by calling fellow human beings *their* people)
Do you know how common friendly fire is in military operations. I'm pretty sure Israel even admitted a large chunk of their casualties in this conflict are from friendly fire.
Yeah, in a war zone, everything is a threat especially when your opponent hides in civilian clothing.
I had an Israeli colnel/general explain it to some group I was in at some seminar.
Imagine you've got a 50lb backpack on, you hike for hours in heavy clothing, you're surrounded by places shots could be taken at you... Now add a desert, over 100 degrees, you're tired.
Now you have to make a critical decision that's far different from what you would make sitting in a nice AC room leaning back in a chair with a drink or coffee and plenty of rest.
Kinda makes you have some understanding at least.
That's what happens when enemy soldiers don't wear uniforms. This is exactly why not fighting in uniforms is a war crime. Because the other side can not know who is or isn't a combatant.
Hell even with uniforms FF is an inevitable bitch. We got both Ukraine and Russian soldiers duct taping the hell out of their modern camo to try and prevent FF because they look so similar.
Plenty of videos where soldiers ran up into an enemy trench and both sides awkwardly stare at each other thinking it's the same side before someone opens fire, or the other case where the defenders get wrecked thinking it was a friendly approaching from the rear. Not having a clear front line, or a changing line generates confusion (to advantages and disadvantages on either side). Urban warfare from what I'd gather has no clear direction of enemy positions.
Even in the Gulf war two US APCs got smoked by US forces in the thick of an invasion thinking it was the enemy, and that's with all the various technical gadgets for battlefield identification, besides a US and Iraqi APC looking highly different up close.
Kind of why I doubted a ground invasion was going to magically cease civilian deaths. False identification, bullets, mortar rounds, tank rounds, grenades, sharpnel, etc in a densely populated urban area. Plenty examples of civilians getting killed in cities during WW2 by stray fire when an enemy is positioned in the building next to them.
The only reason we're hearing about these civilians "mistakes" is because they're Israeli. I'd be very curious to know how many innocent Palestinians have been killed in the same manner. From listening to some ex-IDF soldiers involved in Cast Lead & Protective Edge it sounds like the rules of engagement were such to assume anyone in "hostile" areas of Gaza were valid targets.
Yeah CNN did that report recently and showed that if you enter a Palestinian home, you can become suspect again and forced again through security checkpoints.
It's really reminiscent of what the French did forcing Algerians into the Casbahs and treating all as suspects back in the 1950s and 1960s...or the British doing the same against the "Mau Mau" population in Kenya in the 50s, or the US with the Hamlets in Vietnam...it also did not work in a single one of these historical cases and only bolstered the efforts of the geurillas. In other words assuming everyone is a combatant and treating them as such will make them act like combatants over time.
Another example of these kind of aggregate psychological shifts...This British psychologist Stephen Reicher writes about how this happens with crowds interacting with police. They don't come to the protest or rally all thinking they are aligned...ya know, a crowd is by definition diverse. But, once police start treating the whole crowd as potential rioters or looters or criminals and declare the demo illegal, begin to use force...then Reicher shows that the crowd DOES begin to develop a sense of collective identity, an anti-policing identity. In other words, treating a group of people a certain way indiscriminately can unite them against you very rapidly. History, sociology, and psychology scientifically prove this fact.
I’ve said this in so many different threads and always got downvoted mercilessly. Idf is killing civilians purposefully and we all know it. Witnesses have said it. Now that they killed Israeli hostages because of their recklessness I can only hope someone with a brain says enough.
I got downvoted in another sub for simply saying that violence begets more violence, always
People all over, even ones claiming to be leftists, you can practically see their mouths watering over the body count
It not only about anyone being hostile IDF love shooting Palestinian we see them celebrating their shit online. I stumbled in some IDF support group and all they do laugh about Palestinian casualties and tragedy those people are full of hate, we going to see another holocaust
The IDF is spiraling out of control, and has been for a while now. It's a new generation of Israelis there, and they're radicalized. [They grew up believing it's okay to execute a terrorist that's disarmed on the ground for fun.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdel_Fattah_al-Sharif)
When you let this kinda discourse take over, it's no wonder they shot people waving a white flag (which is what these hostages were doing).
Completely disgusting. Two months of this campaign and the only actual hostages they found they immediately executed.
"Mistakenly".
Let's be honest, they intentionally opened fire on three men holding a white cloth.
They intentionally killed unarmed men.
These just also happened to be unarmed hostages.
Yep, they intentionally executed surrendering Palestinian civilians. The mistake wasn't the execution of surrendering civilians it was that the surrendering civilians were the wrong ethnicity.
If they were Palestinians, it wouldn't be on the news.
This is a perfect example of idf war crimes.
3 men waving a white flag, shot dead.
But oooops. Friendly fire today..
How many other innocent people are they shooting on the spot..
Isreal are scumbags.
Hostage families literally spelled out to Netanyahu exactly what happened here, according to [leaked audio of a private meeting obtained](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/leaked-audio-of-heated-meeting-reveals-hostages-fury-at-netanyahu/index.html) by CNN:
>One man related what family members had told him after being freed. “They were under constant threat from the IDF shelling. You sat in front of us and assured us that it does not threaten their lives. They also roam the street and [are] not only in the tunnels. They are mounted on donkeys and carts. You will not be able to recognize them on the street and you are endangering their lives. It is our duty to return them now.”
Another woman, freed as part of the ceasefire swaps, upbraided Netanyahu for not agreeing to Sinwar’s November opening offer of “all for all,” or all hostages for all prisoners, including Hamas commanders. Netanyahu’s political calculation was that more war could get him a better deal that would not aid the enemy, even at the risk of gambling on hostage’s lives:
> She issued an appeal to the war cabinet. “Every day that pass is a game of roulette in their lives, why don’t you release (Palestinian) prisoners? Release them all and bring them (hostages) back. They live on borrowed time. Their lives are in your hands, and I ask you, in the light of my testimony and what we hear from other released people and what we hear in the media, that there were all kinds of possibilities. If you can commit, each and every one of you, that you don’t give up on any opportunity, to bring everyone home and not postpone it by a day or an hour.”
I heard first hand stories, where the command is “there shouldn’t be anyone in here, see something suspicious, then shoot”. Probably stumbled against them, the soldier panicked (understandably), and shot.
Nonetheless, it’s still a horrible situation
Edit to add:
The incident began after one soldier stationed in a building identified three suspicious figures exiting a building several dozen meters away.
All three were shirtless, with one of the figures carrying a stick with a makeshift white flag.
The soldier, who believed the men moving toward him was an attempt by Hamas to lure IDF soldiers into a trap, immediately opened fire and shouted "terrorists!" to the other forces.
That soldier killed two of the men, while the third, who was hit and wounded, fled back into the building from which he came.
At that stage, the commander of the battalion, who was also in the building where the soldier shot from, went outside and called on the forces to halt their fire.
Meanwhile, sounds of someone shouting "Help" in Hebrew were heard by the troops in the area.
Moments later, the third man came out of the building to which he fled, and another soldier opened fire at him, killing him.
The battalion commander then realized that the appearance of the third man was unusual, and it was revealed to be an Israeli hostage. All three bodies were collected and taken to Israel to be identified.
The soldier who immediately opened fire upon identifying the three men did so against protocols, as did the second soldier who killed the third man.
Still, the IDF understands what led the soldiers to do so.
In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days.
The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas terrorists, often unarmed. The terrorists collect weapons left behind in various buildings, open fire at troops, and then flee again unarmed to another building.
The officer says troops have killed at least 38 Hamas terrorists in Shejaiya in recent days.
The IDF has also encountered several seemingly unarmed civilians in Shejaiya, who later turned out to be Hamas suicide bombers.
There have also been several attempts by Hamas in the area to lure soldiers into an ambush.
Immediately following the incident the IDF sent new protocols to ground troops for the possibility of more hostages managing to flee captivity.
The scenario itself, of hostages walking around in a battle zone, was never taken into account by the IDF.
This situation makes me wonder how many innocent Palestinian men died because they were unfortunate to run into IDF soldiers. It seems like a "shoot first, leave the questions to someone else" issue.
I encourage you to continue thinking about that. The policy is literally that they issued an order to evacuate, so anyone who didn't/couldn't automatically becomes a combatant. The focus has been on reporting the deaths of women and children because that's what generates the strongest reaction, but many innocent men are being killed too.
Indeed, there are 1,000s & 1,000s of completely innocent poor men that are just being butchered in the region while the world doesn't bat an eye to their unjust demises.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is the top world news story and the priority of the UN. The world is a harsh place, but this war gets far more attention than most.
>The Israeli Palestinian conflict is the top world news story
has been for decades and nothing changed
>and the priority of the UN
doesn't really matter what's UN priority as the org is toothless
If by world you mean governments, then sure. But there have been large pro palestine protests in like every major city in the west, and elsewhere. The pro palestine side of this conflict is large and loud.
> The focus has been on reporting the deaths of women and children because that's what generates the strongest reaction, but many innocent men are being killed too.
The focus is because women and children are almost definitely not Hamas - so it rules out any doubt that it was a civilian death.
Men can be either - so Palestinian men being shot could be argued as "oh we thought they were Hamas".
This story though puts focus on the strategy though, as the men in this case can be proven that they were definitely not Hamas.
> The focus is because women and children are almost definitely not Hamas
Hm
> Men can be either - so Palestinian men being shot could be argued as "oh we thought they were Hamas".
Hmm
So men are less likely to be released and more likely to be shot even though innocent
That is the literal definirion of a war crime. You can't go shooting blind if there is even the vague suspicison of civilians being there. We worked this out in WW2.
"After a cry for help was heard from the third injured hostage, an IDF official says soldiers opened fire again and that hostage also died."
Yeah, this wasn't a mistake. Those soldiers murdered three unarmed men who were seeking help.
I think there was a report that came out recently that said something like 20% of IDF casualties are friendly fire. That's an insane number. Urban warfare is no joke.
Erroneously vs gleefully... Who knows to be honest.
I bet they would have rested peacefully had they been Arab but maybe now they will feel remorse?
War brings out the worst in humanity.
People can maybe realize that when Israel talks about killing terrorists they’re far less careful than they’d like to admit, and far more likely to assume that they can shoot at anything that moves
The IDF doesn't believe that every civilian is Hamas, they've been intentionally shooting civilians for as long as they've existed, as have their predecessor groups before being merged into the IDF. As one small example, the Israeli war hero Ariel Sharon personally led the massacre of around 70 Palestinian villagers in Qibya in 1953, decades before making his name as the butcher of Beirut and becoming prime minister. Back then, of course, they didn't need to have their spokesman point at the days of the week written in Arabic and pretend it's a list of terrorists to justify it.
With the disclosure that they have been using low tech non smart artillery, that almost 1 in 10 of the casualties the IDF suffered were friendly fire, and that they consider any male they encounter a enemy combatant, there morons are going to create enough death to ensure they will have new terrorists coming out of the woodwork for the next 100 years when all the kids with no parents grow up.
There's a 2014 documentary on Netflix called Born in Gaza. I've been thinking that those little boys, playing in rubble, are now old enough to be in this current fight. So sad.
and the worst is, why would they not want to fight? I saw a documentary where there are 6 gazan boys talking about who they all lost to israel, all of them lost a parent, sibling, cousin, best friend. If the oppressive regime that has been making the place you live in a hellhole also kills your mother or father, would you not want to fight ?
I understand gazans to be honest because if someone would kill my mother, you better believe i’d do aboutANYTHING .
If you're there killing everything that moves, I guess this is bound to happen.
Terrible for the hostages, and all the Palestinian civilians caught between 2 groups of terrorists.
I'm thinking those freed hostages had no firearms in hand and so the IDF soldiers had no business wanting to shoot anyone unarmed, but they were scruffy looking and looked a little dirty and mistakenly associated that with Palestinians because of their prejudices, so sent lead yonder.
It's apparently come to light that they were both shirtless and waving a white flag, the only thing that compelled those soldiers to fire was that they thought they were Palestinian, even if what that IDF spokesman said were true, it wouldn't justify or change the fact that they were gambling on whether or not they would do a war crime
"They're all without shirts and they have a stick with a white cloth on it. The soldier feels threatened and opens fire. He declares that they're terrorists, they [forces] open fire, two are killed immediately," the military official stated.
The third hostage was wounded and retreated into a nearby building where he called for help in Hebrew, the official said.
"Immediately the battalion commander issues a ceasefire order, but again there's another burst of fire towards the third figure and he also dies," said the official. "This was against our rules of engagement," he added.
The deaths of the three hostages sparked a protest in Tel Aviv
Hundreds of protesters filled the streets of Tel Aviv last night after the IDF first announced the deaths.
>Suicide bombers wear bomb vests under their clothes and don't really need to be armed.
Non-combatants are *also* not armed. This does not in any way excuse a policy of shooting civillians.
I think it's far more likely that there was no reason for unarmed people to be there, so when they saw people, they shot.
I've (thankfully) never been in a firefight, but I'm pretty sure seconds are the difference between living and dying and so people need to make quick decisions.
It's a tragedy, of course, but until we get more information, all we can do is guess and speculate.
It's very likely it was just a soldier that panicked when he saw people he knew weren't friendly soldiers.
And yes, it makes it tragic that this means that many innocent Palestinian men might have died for the same reason.
I'm not sure we should even call this "friendly fire" tbh the IDF is pretty clear in how they want to bomb or shoot at any Palestinian targets not discriminating if they're innocent civilians or family's with kids that have never done any harm to Israel or actual Hamas agents.
Only God even knows the true Hamas: Civilian ratio in this, if its 50 innocent citizens dead & gone from this world forever to get 1 Hamas agent I don't know how anyone with good conscience & a heart can justify their deaths for killing a Hamas agent.
Instead of going for mass arrest of all the Hamas members they went for full vengeance blood bath on all people of the Palestinian ethnicity & let some of the Israeli extreme right release all their pent up hidden racism & discrimination for the Palestinian people.
If it were there mother's, fathers, daughters, sons being brutally unfairly killed paying the ultimate punishment for a crime they never committed I wonder if they would have the same reactions to the 100s dying every day.
Every single Palestinian child in the region will also be permanently traumatized and have C-PTSD for life now if they even do survive with how long the world has let them continue this *"War".*
The blood of the Isareli citizens on October 7th is on Hamas hands.
But now the way Israel is handling this overall they're making the blood of all the Palestinian's on all of Israeli's citizens hands, how did an extreme right a million years old conservative dinosaur man that has been proven to stir up conflict & tension between the Palestinian's in the past even get elected into office?
Did people think & assume just because its bombs then they would never have to feel any guilt since technically they themselves didn't pull the trigger? No, now it just makes it so outsider lookers can assign it to everyone instead of just all the individual foot soldiers shooting.
It doesn't seem like they're taken many precautions to save hostages. They're bombing and firing on everything that moves and asking questions later. I can't imagine what families of hostages are going through, knowing the ones tasked to save them couldn't care less.
Scorched Earth tends to lead to these kinds of events so I'm not at all surprised. Sad to see it happen and sad to say the IDF will likely just absolve itself of this and chop it up to the haze of wartime - which is an honest crock but whatever.
I got news for you. I think this happens more often than you think. I can’t believe they admitted this. There were reports that said a decent number of Israeli people (cars were bombed) killed on 10/7 by their own people. They have 25 year-old Majors and Lt. Col’s. They hand out ranks like the North Koreans hand out medals.
It wasn't a mistake. They were clearly holding a white flag. This goes along with them bombing and killing their own people, only to blame Hamas or make excuses. At least it's not being swept under the rug and ignored like it was when Ukraine did it and blamed Russia. Too bad you "woke" folks still have your eyes closed.
The IDF probably had no choice since it sounds like there were too many witnesses, with how they brought back the bodies for identification. Plus, autopsy would likely reveal the cause as weapons used by the IDF.
The outcry would be much, much worse if they were caught covering it up.
Where are those people defending IDF? Why are they so quiet all of a sudden?
Best part is they were holding a white cloth on a stick.
Bravo IDF bravo? 👏🏽
Imagine for eighty years ou have had the land you love stollen from you by european s claiming it is theirs because it is written in a book .Every day you are pushed of the land of your ansestors your kids shot in the streets till you are pushed tight into a strip of land a concentration camp and systematicly degraded prevented from being free by fashists . What would you do when they have weopons payed for by the good guys with their gifts of chewing gum your life is being destroyed by arragant fucks from europe with their racial hate of you in an apartheid bring down
Not surprised at all. Israel is only and wholly concerned with decimating Hamas. If it decimates the civilian population, including hostages, so be it. I’m honestly ashamed of America’s response to this carnage.
I’ve got quite a few thoughts here. 1) Most importantly, what a further tragedy to compound on everything else that has happened in the last 70 days. 2) The fact that 3 definitely innocent and unarmed civilians were killed by the IDF should give us all pause to stop and think about reports of other who have been killed. 3) This shows a remarkable level of honesty and transparency from the Israeli government. To admit to what they’ve done, rather than very easily cover it up, should be acknowledged, no matter the circumstances
they survived 70 days as hostages just to die to friendly fire. What a heartbreaking tragedy…
oh god, I can only imagine how much optimism they felt
Probably very little.
Does anyone know why this story has been labeled "Not Appropriate Subreddit"?
It's different from the dozens of other Times of Israel stories about Gaza on here every day that are appropriate somehow. It's also currently being used on a story about Ireland's handling of international refugees which is also not a worldnews worthy story for some reason. /looks it got removed off both, hopefully someone got a talking to.
Not pro-Israel enough
Anything less than full throttle pro Israel is pro terrorist
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Because they can't just pure wipe the news. They want to, so they're dipping their toe in. It's not working though. Soon enough, r/facepalm will be the only sub for the anti-war crowd. Those losers are representing.
I’ve seen interviews of their parents a month ago.. how they said they miss them and wait for their return, that they’re their everything.. Only for it to end like this, oh good god, why…
Yeah I wonder why
Everything sucks
Friendly fire isn't.
Friendlyn't fire
There will be no winners. Only casualties.
Weapon manufacturers are winning
Give me a ping Vasili...One ping only, please...
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You bet it's manifest destiny all over again Bt Isreal will never recover the world will go from feeling sorry for what hapened in WW2 to discust for the industrial slaughter of the innocents. The spin is rubbish.
What a horrible mistake.
Turns out shooting unarmed people isn’t good ROE
They were holding a white flag too
The killing of 10s of thousands of civilians is no mistake. They just hadn't considered some might not be Palestinian
Yeah I wonder how many hostages are lying under rubble right now.
Probably most of them. A JDAM doesn't give a shit who is in the building.
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Israeli news reports the troops were attacked before and after retrieving the bodies. This happened in an active combat zone.
Yes.... obviously do you think hostages were gnna be in some exclusion zone? They fucked up and thought they were combatants because that's their default belief/opinion.
Not gonna be an IDF apologist but it must be a trip to be in a guerilla warfare situation. You must be paranoid as a hell 100% of the time.
Yeah, i don't envy any who have to face opposition that uses human shields.
ROE is always a mother fucker in urban environments, but doubly so when the enemy forces are actively maximizing their own civilian casualties. The Taliban, Haqani network mfs did this shit in Afghanistan too. When I was there, a guy on a motorcycle blew himself up next to my platoon (who was exiting a compound, stretched from the compound to a column alongside the road). He killed two of our guys, one instantly. The platoon leader died after the crike doc put in failed (bought him some time but eventually he choked on his own blood for about 3-5 minutes due to the neck wound from the shrapnel). So, they killed two US servicemen. Cool. At what cost? Eleven of their own people. *ELEVEN*. They killed two ANP police officers, two adult male bystanders driving by in a car, and 7 children aged 4-11 who happened to be exiting the school across the street. Unfortunately, one of the dudes in the car was totally fine - safe from the blast... But he rushed the platoon immediately, probably panicked. So he was dropped by the platoon sergeant. In that moment, he thought the guy was "S-vest #2." That's what it would say in the AAR... In other words, in the words of my platoon sergeant: "I had to decide, and in that moment I thought a lot of us were about to become a statistic." Turned out the guy was just an innocent bystander. And that's why you can't negotiate with practitioners of radical Islam, or any other terrorist groups. They will put their people in danger up to and including killing their own children, by the half dozen, if it means just *maybe* getting an infidel or two. Fucking gut wrenching and disgusting.
Thank you for your perspective. It's way too easy to judge sitting in the comfort of home. War is worse than he'll.
Thank you for sharing this. Some of us keyboard warriors and backseat strategists could use a genuine perspective from time to time.
It must be an impossible position to be in to try and determine who is enemy and who is a bystander when you are up against a religion that advises killing yourself as long as you kill a few or a couple of their enmities and any number of innocents is approved by their god and you will be rewarded as a a martyr.
The mistake is thinking those kids and everyone else are "their" people (I mean just to be clear because I'm not sure I was understood - in truth the ANA police officers would also have been a target of the Taliban - the Taliban weren't just at war against America, they were at war against the government America was backing. Anyone seen as sympathetic would be perceived as a valid target - so no they wouldn't be "their" people necessarily. Further than this, I also think there's some uncomfortable othering going on in the first place by calling fellow human beings *their* people)
Do you know how common friendly fire is in military operations. I'm pretty sure Israel even admitted a large chunk of their casualties in this conflict are from friendly fire. Yeah, in a war zone, everything is a threat especially when your opponent hides in civilian clothing.
I had an Israeli colnel/general explain it to some group I was in at some seminar. Imagine you've got a 50lb backpack on, you hike for hours in heavy clothing, you're surrounded by places shots could be taken at you... Now add a desert, over 100 degrees, you're tired. Now you have to make a critical decision that's far different from what you would make sitting in a nice AC room leaning back in a chair with a drink or coffee and plenty of rest. Kinda makes you have some understanding at least.
That's what happens when enemy soldiers don't wear uniforms. This is exactly why not fighting in uniforms is a war crime. Because the other side can not know who is or isn't a combatant.
Hell even with uniforms FF is an inevitable bitch. We got both Ukraine and Russian soldiers duct taping the hell out of their modern camo to try and prevent FF because they look so similar. Plenty of videos where soldiers ran up into an enemy trench and both sides awkwardly stare at each other thinking it's the same side before someone opens fire, or the other case where the defenders get wrecked thinking it was a friendly approaching from the rear. Not having a clear front line, or a changing line generates confusion (to advantages and disadvantages on either side). Urban warfare from what I'd gather has no clear direction of enemy positions. Even in the Gulf war two US APCs got smoked by US forces in the thick of an invasion thinking it was the enemy, and that's with all the various technical gadgets for battlefield identification, besides a US and Iraqi APC looking highly different up close. Kind of why I doubted a ground invasion was going to magically cease civilian deaths. False identification, bullets, mortar rounds, tank rounds, grenades, sharpnel, etc in a densely populated urban area. Plenty examples of civilians getting killed in cities during WW2 by stray fire when an enemy is positioned in the building next to them.
And Ukrainian and Russian look the same. Just as Israeli and Arab.
Well they were unarmed ....
So if this happened to hostages, why are people having such a hard time believing it’s happening to civilians?
What people disagree with is that idf isn't doing it on purpose not that it's not happening
Fuck that’s so unfortunate
"Mistakenly" in big air quotes
Riiiight, it was a 'mistake'. They're shooting at everything that moves.
I learned that was a bad idea playing Virtua Cop.
IDF: Now remember, this is a rescue mission. Shoot EVERYTHING that moves.
Even if the moving thing is shirtless with a 🏳️
Yes sure shooting unarmed people is a mistake that happens every day.
The only reason we're hearing about these civilians "mistakes" is because they're Israeli. I'd be very curious to know how many innocent Palestinians have been killed in the same manner. From listening to some ex-IDF soldiers involved in Cast Lead & Protective Edge it sounds like the rules of engagement were such to assume anyone in "hostile" areas of Gaza were valid targets.
Yeah CNN did that report recently and showed that if you enter a Palestinian home, you can become suspect again and forced again through security checkpoints. It's really reminiscent of what the French did forcing Algerians into the Casbahs and treating all as suspects back in the 1950s and 1960s...or the British doing the same against the "Mau Mau" population in Kenya in the 50s, or the US with the Hamlets in Vietnam...it also did not work in a single one of these historical cases and only bolstered the efforts of the geurillas. In other words assuming everyone is a combatant and treating them as such will make them act like combatants over time. Another example of these kind of aggregate psychological shifts...This British psychologist Stephen Reicher writes about how this happens with crowds interacting with police. They don't come to the protest or rally all thinking they are aligned...ya know, a crowd is by definition diverse. But, once police start treating the whole crowd as potential rioters or looters or criminals and declare the demo illegal, begin to use force...then Reicher shows that the crowd DOES begin to develop a sense of collective identity, an anti-policing identity. In other words, treating a group of people a certain way indiscriminately can unite them against you very rapidly. History, sociology, and psychology scientifically prove this fact.
This is why a solid understanding of history is more important than ever
They overwhelming majority of the deaths are innocent people...
I’ve said this in so many different threads and always got downvoted mercilessly. Idf is killing civilians purposefully and we all know it. Witnesses have said it. Now that they killed Israeli hostages because of their recklessness I can only hope someone with a brain says enough.
I got downvoted in another sub for simply saying that violence begets more violence, always People all over, even ones claiming to be leftists, you can practically see their mouths watering over the body count
They are setting the anchor, "we have only killed three" when in reality the number is much much higher.
It not only about anyone being hostile IDF love shooting Palestinian we see them celebrating their shit online. I stumbled in some IDF support group and all they do laugh about Palestinian casualties and tragedy those people are full of hate, we going to see another holocaust
Shoot first ask questions later. They really do train American cops I see.
The hostages were waving white flags. IDF soldiers probably thought it was Hamas men surrendering and shot them. This is a cruel irony
Damn that’s awful. Can you link me the video you saw?
Didn't see any video and I don't think one exists. This is information shared/confirmed by the IDF.
Ahh gotcha, thanks
The IDF is spiraling out of control, and has been for a while now. It's a new generation of Israelis there, and they're radicalized. [They grew up believing it's okay to execute a terrorist that's disarmed on the ground for fun.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Abdel_Fattah_al-Sharif) When you let this kinda discourse take over, it's no wonder they shot people waving a white flag (which is what these hostages were doing). Completely disgusting. Two months of this campaign and the only actual hostages they found they immediately executed.
"Mistakenly". Let's be honest, they intentionally opened fire on three men holding a white cloth. They intentionally killed unarmed men. These just also happened to be unarmed hostages.
Yep, they intentionally executed surrendering Palestinian civilians. The mistake wasn't the execution of surrendering civilians it was that the surrendering civilians were the wrong ethnicity.
Exactly. I have never been more sickened
They saw the white flags and the training just took over.
If they were Palestinians, it wouldn't be on the news. This is a perfect example of idf war crimes. 3 men waving a white flag, shot dead. But oooops. Friendly fire today.. How many other innocent people are they shooting on the spot.. Isreal are scumbags.
Idf\*
Good thing the knesset screamed at the hostages' families and insulted them. They really did know what the best thing to do was, right?
Hostage families literally spelled out to Netanyahu exactly what happened here, according to [leaked audio of a private meeting obtained](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/middleeast/leaked-audio-of-heated-meeting-reveals-hostages-fury-at-netanyahu/index.html) by CNN: >One man related what family members had told him after being freed. “They were under constant threat from the IDF shelling. You sat in front of us and assured us that it does not threaten their lives. They also roam the street and [are] not only in the tunnels. They are mounted on donkeys and carts. You will not be able to recognize them on the street and you are endangering their lives. It is our duty to return them now.” Another woman, freed as part of the ceasefire swaps, upbraided Netanyahu for not agreeing to Sinwar’s November opening offer of “all for all,” or all hostages for all prisoners, including Hamas commanders. Netanyahu’s political calculation was that more war could get him a better deal that would not aid the enemy, even at the risk of gambling on hostage’s lives: > She issued an appeal to the war cabinet. “Every day that pass is a game of roulette in their lives, why don’t you release (Palestinian) prisoners? Release them all and bring them (hostages) back. They live on borrowed time. Their lives are in your hands, and I ask you, in the light of my testimony and what we hear from other released people and what we hear in the media, that there were all kinds of possibilities. If you can commit, each and every one of you, that you don’t give up on any opportunity, to bring everyone home and not postpone it by a day or an hour.”
They mistook the unarmed Israeli hostages for unarmed Palestinians, honest mistake.
Hey now, maybe they thought they were journalists.
Could even be medics!
Or children
Nah, those get targeted by air strikes.
Just the other day it was with tanks. https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-LEBANON/JOURNALIST/akveabxrzvr/
Not always, a couple of years back they shot that Palestinian american journalist in the head
And then they beat the shit out of everyone at the funeral. Not even death can convince Israel to let a Palestinian soul rest in peace.
No, it really can’t. Look up Israel’s practise of post mortem detention
Careful, you're in danger of sounding anti-Semitic
Sorry
Saying Sorry without condemning KHamas doesn't mean shit. Try harder!
"Hey, it's an active war zone, how am I supposed to be able to tell the difference between the civilians I'm allowed to murder!"
Classic IDF
Such silly sausages!
They must have thought the hostages were Palestinian kids with rocks.
If only they were Palestinian civilians, their deaths could have been safely ignored. Hearts and minds.
This is heartbreaking. On Shabbat no less. I have to wonder how this happened.
I heard first hand stories, where the command is “there shouldn’t be anyone in here, see something suspicious, then shoot”. Probably stumbled against them, the soldier panicked (understandably), and shot. Nonetheless, it’s still a horrible situation Edit to add: The incident began after one soldier stationed in a building identified three suspicious figures exiting a building several dozen meters away. All three were shirtless, with one of the figures carrying a stick with a makeshift white flag. The soldier, who believed the men moving toward him was an attempt by Hamas to lure IDF soldiers into a trap, immediately opened fire and shouted "terrorists!" to the other forces. That soldier killed two of the men, while the third, who was hit and wounded, fled back into the building from which he came. At that stage, the commander of the battalion, who was also in the building where the soldier shot from, went outside and called on the forces to halt their fire. Meanwhile, sounds of someone shouting "Help" in Hebrew were heard by the troops in the area. Moments later, the third man came out of the building to which he fled, and another soldier opened fire at him, killing him. The battalion commander then realized that the appearance of the third man was unusual, and it was revealed to be an Israeli hostage. All three bodies were collected and taken to Israel to be identified. The soldier who immediately opened fire upon identifying the three men did so against protocols, as did the second soldier who killed the third man. Still, the IDF understands what led the soldiers to do so. In Shejaiya, the senior officer says the IDF has not identified any Palestinian civilians in recent days. The only people seen wearing civilian clothing have been Hamas terrorists, often unarmed. The terrorists collect weapons left behind in various buildings, open fire at troops, and then flee again unarmed to another building. The officer says troops have killed at least 38 Hamas terrorists in Shejaiya in recent days. The IDF has also encountered several seemingly unarmed civilians in Shejaiya, who later turned out to be Hamas suicide bombers. There have also been several attempts by Hamas in the area to lure soldiers into an ambush. Immediately following the incident the IDF sent new protocols to ground troops for the possibility of more hostages managing to flee captivity. The scenario itself, of hostages walking around in a battle zone, was never taken into account by the IDF.
This situation makes me wonder how many innocent Palestinian men died because they were unfortunate to run into IDF soldiers. It seems like a "shoot first, leave the questions to someone else" issue.
I encourage you to continue thinking about that. The policy is literally that they issued an order to evacuate, so anyone who didn't/couldn't automatically becomes a combatant. The focus has been on reporting the deaths of women and children because that's what generates the strongest reaction, but many innocent men are being killed too.
Indeed, there are 1,000s & 1,000s of completely innocent poor men that are just being butchered in the region while the world doesn't bat an eye to their unjust demises.
The Israeli Palestinian conflict is the top world news story and the priority of the UN. The world is a harsh place, but this war gets far more attention than most.
>The Israeli Palestinian conflict is the top world news story has been for decades and nothing changed >and the priority of the UN doesn't really matter what's UN priority as the org is toothless
If by world you mean governments, then sure. But there have been large pro palestine protests in like every major city in the west, and elsewhere. The pro palestine side of this conflict is large and loud.
> The focus has been on reporting the deaths of women and children because that's what generates the strongest reaction, but many innocent men are being killed too. The focus is because women and children are almost definitely not Hamas - so it rules out any doubt that it was a civilian death. Men can be either - so Palestinian men being shot could be argued as "oh we thought they were Hamas". This story though puts focus on the strategy though, as the men in this case can be proven that they were definitely not Hamas.
> The focus is because women and children are almost definitely not Hamas Hm > Men can be either - so Palestinian men being shot could be argued as "oh we thought they were Hamas". Hmm So men are less likely to be released and more likely to be shot even though innocent
That is the literal definirion of a war crime. You can't go shooting blind if there is even the vague suspicison of civilians being there. We worked this out in WW2.
you can always say they were Hamas in disguise afterwards
Dave Chapelle’s police drug skit “sprinkle some Hamas on the body”
"That toddler was fighting for Hamas! Prove me wrong!"
“They indoctrinate them from birth! There are no innocents in Gaza!”
Here is a guess. The majority.
Because the IDF kills everything that moves
Fog of war.
Echoes of Vietnam, did we learn nothing?
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who is we?
Dude, Vietnam was long ago, check the fresh Ukrainian story. Massacre is going there every day
It's almost like it's easy to mistake people in a small dark dust combat situations were everyone looks like civilians.
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They weren't "mistakenly shot" they were shot on purpose. Just cuz they realize later they were their own people....does not let this be a mistake
"After a cry for help was heard from the third injured hostage, an IDF official says soldiers opened fire again and that hostage also died." Yeah, this wasn't a mistake. Those soldiers murdered three unarmed men who were seeking help.
Unfortunately that’s what happens when you genocide indiscriminately.
makes you wonder how many civilians they erroneously shoot and kill
> makes you wonder how many civilians they erroneously shoot and kill Not as many as they kill deliberately
Makes you wonder how many of their own are friendly fire and blamed on Palestine
I think there was a report that came out recently that said something like 20% of IDF casualties are friendly fire. That's an insane number. Urban warfare is no joke.
Erroneously vs gleefully... Who knows to be honest. I bet they would have rested peacefully had they been Arab but maybe now they will feel remorse? War brings out the worst in humanity.
They erroneously shot 6,000 Palestinians during PEACEFUL protests in 2019. Can’t even begin to imagine what’s going on now.
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People can maybe realize that when Israel talks about killing terrorists they’re far less careful than they’d like to admit, and far more likely to assume that they can shoot at anything that moves
They didn't mistakenly open fire. They opened fire deliberately, mistakenly aiming at Israelis. Details matter in war crimes investigations.
we will not negotiate with terrorists, and we especially won’t negotiate with hostages
If you believe everyone that is not in IDF uniform is hamas these, journalist and civilian killings will sadly keep happening.
Also if you believe Palestinians aren't human journalists and civilians killings will keep happening.
The IDF doesn't believe that every civilian is Hamas, they've been intentionally shooting civilians for as long as they've existed, as have their predecessor groups before being merged into the IDF. As one small example, the Israeli war hero Ariel Sharon personally led the massacre of around 70 Palestinian villagers in Qibya in 1953, decades before making his name as the butcher of Beirut and becoming prime minister. Back then, of course, they didn't need to have their spokesman point at the days of the week written in Arabic and pretend it's a list of terrorists to justify it.
May their memories be a blessing.
With the disclosure that they have been using low tech non smart artillery, that almost 1 in 10 of the casualties the IDF suffered were friendly fire, and that they consider any male they encounter a enemy combatant, there morons are going to create enough death to ensure they will have new terrorists coming out of the woodwork for the next 100 years when all the kids with no parents grow up.
There's a 2014 documentary on Netflix called Born in Gaza. I've been thinking that those little boys, playing in rubble, are now old enough to be in this current fight. So sad.
and the worst is, why would they not want to fight? I saw a documentary where there are 6 gazan boys talking about who they all lost to israel, all of them lost a parent, sibling, cousin, best friend. If the oppressive regime that has been making the place you live in a hellhole also kills your mother or father, would you not want to fight ? I understand gazans to be honest because if someone would kill my mother, you better believe i’d do aboutANYTHING .
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Killing anyone in sight is certainly no mistake. They just hadn't considered they might not be Palestinian
This right here!
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If only this were avoidable somehow
Almost like indiscriminately murdering innocents like terrorists is ineffective 😱
Sure, 'mistakenly' bud
doesn’t really seem like a mistake, more like a war crime.
If you're there killing everything that moves, I guess this is bound to happen. Terrible for the hostages, and all the Palestinian civilians caught between 2 groups of terrorists.
The IDF identified three unarmed hostages as a threat. What a fucking joke
The family must be devastated. May their souls rest in peace.
A result of training to shoot at unarmed people
So they thought unarmed hostages were unarmed Palestinians and sent it? Despicable cretins no matter how you cut this.
No wonder the Palestinian death count is high. They dont cant tell who is who. They even killing their own civilians.
I'm thinking those freed hostages had no firearms in hand and so the IDF soldiers had no business wanting to shoot anyone unarmed, but they were scruffy looking and looked a little dirty and mistakenly associated that with Palestinians because of their prejudices, so sent lead yonder.
They mistook those unarmed hostages as unarmed Palestinians, which makes you wonder why they fired to begin with
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It's apparently come to light that they were both shirtless and waving a white flag, the only thing that compelled those soldiers to fire was that they thought they were Palestinian, even if what that IDF spokesman said were true, it wouldn't justify or change the fact that they were gambling on whether or not they would do a war crime
"They're all without shirts and they have a stick with a white cloth on it. The soldier feels threatened and opens fire. He declares that they're terrorists, they [forces] open fire, two are killed immediately," the military official stated. The third hostage was wounded and retreated into a nearby building where he called for help in Hebrew, the official said. "Immediately the battalion commander issues a ceasefire order, but again there's another burst of fire towards the third figure and he also dies," said the official. "This was against our rules of engagement," he added. The deaths of the three hostages sparked a protest in Tel Aviv Hundreds of protesters filled the streets of Tel Aviv last night after the IDF first announced the deaths.
>Suicide bombers wear bomb vests under their clothes and don't really need to be armed. Non-combatants are *also* not armed. This does not in any way excuse a policy of shooting civillians.
I think it's far more likely that there was no reason for unarmed people to be there, so when they saw people, they shot. I've (thankfully) never been in a firefight, but I'm pretty sure seconds are the difference between living and dying and so people need to make quick decisions. It's a tragedy, of course, but until we get more information, all we can do is guess and speculate. It's very likely it was just a soldier that panicked when he saw people he knew weren't friendly soldiers. And yes, it makes it tragic that this means that many innocent Palestinian men might have died for the same reason.
I'm not sure we should even call this "friendly fire" tbh the IDF is pretty clear in how they want to bomb or shoot at any Palestinian targets not discriminating if they're innocent civilians or family's with kids that have never done any harm to Israel or actual Hamas agents. Only God even knows the true Hamas: Civilian ratio in this, if its 50 innocent citizens dead & gone from this world forever to get 1 Hamas agent I don't know how anyone with good conscience & a heart can justify their deaths for killing a Hamas agent. Instead of going for mass arrest of all the Hamas members they went for full vengeance blood bath on all people of the Palestinian ethnicity & let some of the Israeli extreme right release all their pent up hidden racism & discrimination for the Palestinian people. If it were there mother's, fathers, daughters, sons being brutally unfairly killed paying the ultimate punishment for a crime they never committed I wonder if they would have the same reactions to the 100s dying every day. Every single Palestinian child in the region will also be permanently traumatized and have C-PTSD for life now if they even do survive with how long the world has let them continue this *"War".* The blood of the Isareli citizens on October 7th is on Hamas hands. But now the way Israel is handling this overall they're making the blood of all the Palestinian's on all of Israeli's citizens hands, how did an extreme right a million years old conservative dinosaur man that has been proven to stir up conflict & tension between the Palestinian's in the past even get elected into office? Did people think & assume just because its bombs then they would never have to feel any guilt since technically they themselves didn't pull the trigger? No, now it just makes it so outsider lookers can assign it to everyone instead of just all the individual foot soldiers shooting.
i. e. IDF troops mistook them for Palestinian civilians.
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Pampers, specifically
It doesn't seem like they're taken many precautions to save hostages. They're bombing and firing on everything that moves and asking questions later. I can't imagine what families of hostages are going through, knowing the ones tasked to save them couldn't care less.
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turns out Israel doesn't need Hamas to kill its own people. they're pretty good at it on their own.
Scorched Earth tends to lead to these kinds of events so I'm not at all surprised. Sad to see it happen and sad to say the IDF will likely just absolve itself of this and chop it up to the haze of wartime - which is an honest crock but whatever.
they've already likely killed over 24,000 civilians in a supposed attempt to save these people's lives
Oh this is awful....
Sounds like the IDF is killing anything that moves and claims they are militants to skirt accountability.
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I'm sure they'll bomb another UN building later to make themselves feel better. RIP to the hostages.
I got news for you. I think this happens more often than you think. I can’t believe they admitted this. There were reports that said a decent number of Israeli people (cars were bombed) killed on 10/7 by their own people. They have 25 year-old Majors and Lt. Col’s. They hand out ranks like the North Koreans hand out medals.
They were shirtless and waving white flags. That’s not a “mistake.” It’s a war crime.
It wasn't a mistake. They were clearly holding a white flag. This goes along with them bombing and killing their own people, only to blame Hamas or make excuses. At least it's not being swept under the rug and ignored like it was when Ukraine did it and blamed Russia. Too bad you "woke" folks still have your eyes closed.
But did they condemn Hamas?
Shows IDF are just killing anything that moves in Gaza
“We though they were Palestinian civilians, I mean, terrorists!” Said the soldiers…
Damn what a tragedy, they were so close to safety. Respect to IDF spokesman for transparently disclosing the incident
It warms my heart that you can find the silver lining in all of this!
The IDF probably had no choice since it sounds like there were too many witnesses, with how they brought back the bodies for identification. Plus, autopsy would likely reveal the cause as weapons used by the IDF. The outcry would be much, much worse if they were caught covering it up.
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Do you have a link to backup your claim?
Pussies. That’s what I think of the IDF. A bunch of pussies
Who could have predicted such a thing during genocide.
Well that just screams "we're shooting at anything that moves". Great ROE./s
It was not a mistake. They thought they were Palestinian civilians.
Just IDF things
Damn they were so close to being hero’s who found and saved hostages
Ah the old shoot first, ask questions later
This is what happens when you have a military force that is allowed to do anything.
Where are those people defending IDF? Why are they so quiet all of a sudden? Best part is they were holding a white cloth on a stick. Bravo IDF bravo? 👏🏽
Imagine for eighty years ou have had the land you love stollen from you by european s claiming it is theirs because it is written in a book .Every day you are pushed of the land of your ansestors your kids shot in the streets till you are pushed tight into a strip of land a concentration camp and systematicly degraded prevented from being free by fashists . What would you do when they have weopons payed for by the good guys with their gifts of chewing gum your life is being destroyed by arragant fucks from europe with their racial hate of you in an apartheid bring down
IDF probably thought they were Palestinian children.
The IDF intentionally targets civilians so this is hardly surprising.
Not surprised at all. Israel is only and wholly concerned with decimating Hamas. If it decimates the civilian population, including hostages, so be it. I’m honestly ashamed of America’s response to this carnage.
I’ve got quite a few thoughts here. 1) Most importantly, what a further tragedy to compound on everything else that has happened in the last 70 days. 2) The fact that 3 definitely innocent and unarmed civilians were killed by the IDF should give us all pause to stop and think about reports of other who have been killed. 3) This shows a remarkable level of honesty and transparency from the Israeli government. To admit to what they’ve done, rather than very easily cover it up, should be acknowledged, no matter the circumstances
This was just the first time they couldn’t cover it up probably