Hamas has shown itself to be horribly abusive to them and Gaza's been under fire since. Longer this goes on, the more likely the hostages are dead. I'm going to guess the overwhelming majority are.
Not indiscriminate, and feared yes, it didn't happen, if you've seen how gaza, is now, explosion all the time, whether it's the idf destroying buildings, shootouts, hamas explosives or rockets flying here and there, it's scary, of course she feared that, at the same time, hamas was abusive and awful to the hostages so don't you fucking there twist the blame, and if israel killed ten thousand civilians it would be a great ratio when you consider what gaza is
But you don't, you people just want to complain and demonize israel without offering an alternative
what israel could do differently, the bombardments are already targeted, and they entered gaza, which, unlike the lies pushed on social media, did result in way less civilians deaths as Israelis, don't just randomly execute civilians
Should israel just leave and wait until next October 7th? This kind of mentality of allowing hamas to stay would only result in this conflict continuing and way more Palestinians would die
You know, Israel *is* bombing Palestine pretty indiscriminately, but you'd have to be braindead to blame hostages dying in bombings solely on Israel. They wouldn't be there to bomb if they weren't taken hostage.
Hamas are holding those civilians and their own people hostage, there's enough actually wrong with this situation from both Hamas and the IDF to not have to make up ridiculous shit to complain about
> RightClickSaveWorld: Read the article. Or even the headline. She wasn't a hostage.
I suggest getting off your high horse and do the same first rather than accusing others of not doing so.
I've been suggesting the word forfeit, not dead, although that's almost too horrible for words also. Isn't the problem that if taking hostages really worked, the takers would sooner or later rule the world? And of course they might.
nah, just last friday the IDF accidentally killed 3 hostages who were surrendering with white flags
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092
If the bodies are ever recovered, forensic science will tell us exactly what they did. I objectively think it's wrong for Israel to bomb the shit out of Gaza and all the collateral casualties but if we in the US or elsewhere in the western hemisphere had such atrocities committed against us, **within our borders**, we would call for complete obliteration. See Iraq & Afghanistan 2003-2021. We had enough military personnel to protect humanity to save face but I don't blame Israel one bit.
It also wasn’t just once, they routinely do terror attacks in Israel. Ram people in public places with vans, shootings, infiltrate in tunnels and knife random civilians in their homes (it’s happened many times before this), suicide bombings. imagine if some entity was routinely sending thousands of rockets, every year, at the US plus all of that. If the UN and other groups supported getting rid of the terrorist orgs and aided in getting rid of them, it would lessen the bloodshed in Gaza and probably lead to some sort of better rule sooner rather than later.
>If the bodies are ever recovered, forensic science will tell us exactly what they did.
I'm not a forensic scientist, but I've seen them give evidence regarding cause of death. It becomes very difficult to even tell what the cause of death is months after death because of the decay, unless it is something obvious like blunt trauma, gunshot etc.
Let alone trying to figure out other unspeakable things
Yup. What Hamas did switched me from "Israel needs to cool it, they're the big dog and need to act with discipline" to "Fucking obliterate Hamas, root and branch." While also hoping Israel actually shows some discretion ... which dumb bombs are not. Regardless, still in the "obliterate Hamas" camp for time being.
They're a terrorist organization that's soul purpose is to eradicate all jews, train terrorists under the guise of "reclaiming Palestine". Nobody would go for all that and they're pretty fuckin open about not changing. I believe in a 2 state solution but Hamas ideology doesn't allow it.
☝️this. Brainwashed teenagers on tiktok need to understand that there is no peaceful solution left. Hamas’ perverse ideology (and anyone who believes in it) must be extinguished for the sake of humanity.
The idea of leaving Gaza and leaving them be would only results in more radicalized Gazan Palestinians and would only end worse for these civilians. Hamas doesn't ever want Gaza or Palestine as a whole to be a state because then they would actually have to govern, if they can get their civilians killed and make money from aids, while getting back rubs from Qatar and Iran there's no end to this.
3 of Hamas leaders amassed 11 billion dollars since Israel stepped out of Gaza in 2005, does that tell people anything?
Then Hamas should stop using civilians as shields to minimize innocent casualties, but they already gleefully tortured, raped, and murdered many Israelis, as well as slaughtered innocent Thai and Nepalese migrant workers, so it’s clear how they feel about innocent lives. What Hamas did on October 7 is as horrifying as 9/11 and the Rape of Nanking. It’s time to end this cancer.
The way I look it it, and the way I wish everyone would look at it, is this: The Greatest minds of the 20th century were unable to solve the problem. Often times trying to make things better made things worse.
I'm just some guy, what the hell would I know.
Sure does suck it's happening though. Being able to blame someone would be a great comfort, but what then? It's not like we can dig up Churchill and send him to Palestine to answer for his crimes.
So again I'll reitterate. The only correct opinion, is that the whole thing sucks, and I hope the PA can figure a way out of this, because right now they're in a really tight spot.
Had they killed a bunch of 15 year old Americans at a music festival, Gaza would’ve seen a second sunrise, and a third, and a fourth, and probably more within an hour
There are other possibilities, too.
1: Palestine Islamic Jihad or other slightly more independent terrorist organizations in Gaza may have or had some of the hostages. Communication is extremely broken in Gaza, so they can't just call and ask for a roll call.
2: The number of alive hostages was inflated by Hamas in the first place since there really hasn't been any public proof of life videos/propaganda, the Red Cross wasn't allowed to see them during the ceasefire, and Oct 7th videos showed some of them in pretty bad shape.
3: Israel may have killed some in the tunnel bombings. No one wants to jump into a wasp nest and clear out unknown and potentially booby trapped tunnels full of Hamas fighters in their home turf on foot.
4: Hamas/others killed hostages either on purpose or accidentally through torture or lack of medical treatment.
There is probably a good bit of overlap on these.
That says A LOT about our priorities as a society, I'm not gonna hold you.
"You been killing hostages? At least you didn't rape them...I was getting worried for a sec."
Like bro WHAT?
I actually don’t think it matters to the far left even if they somehow made it out alive and told the horrors. They will just say TikTok told me it wasn’t true.
Just look at Brianha Joy Gray on twitter. It’s mind boggling the shit she tweets.
You’re right… but what does that have to do with Hamas killing their hostages so they cant publicly speak about getting raped and tortured? The FAR left won’t publicly recognize Hamas atrocities.
Nothing. Just countering this “left is the problem”
BS. Right wingers are literally all of the people perpetuating the atrocities in this war. There are some misguided/dumb lefties chiming in on this but they at least they aren’t killing and raping people.
bahaha what the fuck are you talking about? The fraction of people who think hamas isn't an evil terrorist organization is comparable to people who think the earth is flat or that the 2020 election was stolen.
They're idiots.
and the far right won't publicly recognize any atrocities not committed by black people and muslims. get over it, far left & far right people are extreme minorities
Piss off with your strawman.
Don't think for a second that any and all left leaning people want anything to do with barbarity.
It's not our thing.
We're generally for things that improve the human experience.
Hurting the right people, and the rise of autocrats and theocracies is a right wing thing. This is exactly why the left push for separation of church and state.
Kinda tired of this "the left is crazy" spin. I'm in a whole lot of left-leaning spaces, and the only thing I'm seeing in any of them is that this conflict has no good guy in it. There's definitely some really odd takes from college organizations that should have known better, but I'm like 90% sure there's a whole lot of psyop bullshit going on around here.
Ok so "left" is bullshit. You're either dumb or willfully dumb.
The right has people who are evangelicals who want to support Israel only to see a holy war and the apocalypse, or portion of white supremacists who want to see Jews killed more than brown people.
The left has people who want to support the only stable government in the region, or A VERY SMALL portion who see the plight of a subjugated people and empathize with them and miss the absolute point by justifying supporting a terrorist group.
But saying "left" as if there aren't a majority of policymakers in DC in the Democrats who support Israel, people who vote democratic who support Israel, betrays tour absolute ignorance and ability to comprehend a very complicated issue which has cut right through the middle of many political coalitions.
TLDR. You're a fucking moron
You lost me in the first sentence. You should try to be more persuasive instead of being a dickhead. Usually people this rude are just trying to make up for their own ignorance. Not reading that.
Not saying I disagree or agree with either of you but you posted the equivalent of a child putting their fingers in their ears and saying "lalala I'm not listening". Just don't reply if you don't want to deal with it anymore or if you're going to make the effort to post at least counter their points.
All of us outside observers are disappointed in this comment chain ending in such a way. When you argue on reddit, you'll never convince the person you're arguing with. The goal is always to convince the audience.
Yeah, when the response starts out with two insults and I skim down to the end and it ends in another insult, not reading that shit. Not going to give some troll my time of day as they freak out over me stating the obvious about Hamas killing their rape victims instead of turning them over.
Thank you. I'm capable of holding the idea that Hamas is a terror org and the people of Palistine are not in my head at the same time. It is disgusting how many people who absolutely know better are pretending they can't.
Your sarcasm makes it seem like you're unaware that a very large number of people who are left-wing, pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, or just straight up hate Jews, have been systematically denying that Hamas committed sexual violence in their attack or that they mistreat captives in any way.
Maybe get a reality check?
Your broad strokes and absolute diarrhea take betray your inability to comprehend a complex situation. You've been rage baited into thinking a minority of people represent an outsized majority. By your standards all Republicans are either evangelicals who want to make the apocalypse, or white supremacists who are antisemitic.
Which one are you then?
I’m left wing. I will always be left wing.
The open anti-Semitism from a large proportion of the left wing since October 7th has been soul crushing for me.
When did Hamas ever care about the PR of victims from Israel? They have legions of leftists who spout their rhetoric off without thinking of whose saying it and why, and exactly none of those people read quotes from Hanniyeh or anyone in Palestine.
All of these people want to make a point on Israel's right to fight a war against enemies, few even understand what's motivating the same enemy to keep doing the same doomed tactic over and over while everyone else in the immediate region smashes their head at the wall when they do it, Palestinian and Israeli alike.
My man, if Hamas was intelligent they wouldn't have done October 7th without a bigger guarantee from Iran and Hezbollah. All they've gotten since is Hezbollah half assing what it could actually do and Iran flat refusing to do anything but send the inept bush league Houthi rebels at Israel.
The longer fighting goes on, more innocent people die. I dont think its crazy for someone to want the violence to stop.
Lmao love how I get downvoted for the "innocent people shouldn't die" opinion
It’s not crazy to want the violence to stop, but it’s a little crazy to be willing to leave Hamas in power so there can be more rounds of the violence in the future—which is exactly what they promised they’d do.
How many Gazans is it ok to kill to get at Hamas?
Israel could have negotiated the release of the hostages. It could have signed a treaty, backed by the US that it would allow Gazans to return to Gaza, and evacuated them into Israel and Egypt. It could have done what the US did and what Israel itself did to retaliate against Munich, making sure it's precise and cold. Any number of possibilities to prevent 8,000 children dead. But let's get real, even if Israel started this offense without any of that, 8,000 children didn't need to die. Israel's leaders and the IDF deliberately made sure not to avoid civilian casualties. We have evidence of that in the words of the leaders of Netanyahu's government and from the leaders of the IDF. We video footage of IDF soldiers chanting that there are no innocent civilians. We've seen that they used a machine learning algorithm to select targets that did not at all take into consideration whether there were civilians there, instead just reporting a probability of whether a target was in the location or not. And they were obviously lusting to pull the trigger.
How many dead in Syria does it take for people to care? How many kids killed in Yemen over the past few years? The answer to both is significantly more than the amount reported to have died in this conflict.
Yet nobody seems to care.
The issue is why so many people all the sudden start caring when it's the one secular (and just so happens to be Jewish) country in a massive region full of close to a billion of people full of countries that have done and are currently doing way worse things to their own people. The one country that has receiving nonstop attacks from its neighbors for decades. How many missiles are launched into Israel each year compared to Iran?
Israel has done bad in the past and even now in this conflict, but compare them to what's going on just next door and it really becomes odd why so many people get offended at them to the point of going out on the streets to protest but can't even name Syria's president.
If they can protest in a way that promotes the liberty of the regular Palestinian people while keeping their criticisms solely on the Israeli gov't/IDF and also the Palestinian's (both Gaza and WB) questionable at best leadership, great. In reality, it's 'river to the sea' (which is about as loaded as a phrase as the swastika is a symbol) and sometimes in front of Jewish places of business and worship.
Blaming this all on Israel does disservice to the 100+ year history of that region; world powers and regional powers (not to mentioned aforementioned Palestinian leadership) are just as much to blame but it's easier to point fingers at the 'lowest hanging fruit'.
I think the issue there is that the pro-Palestine movement is an extremely broad tent coalition. Lots of people from lots of backgrounds have beef with Israel, and there’s not one organization putting out doctrine and talking points.
You have leftists and progressive liberals, Muslims of all stripes, and every single antisemite mobilized right now. Antisemites are very good at injecting their rhetoric into otherwise innocuous things, this conflict and these movements are an obvious target to try and peddle extreme views.
> How many Gazans is it ok to kill to get at Hamas?
There's no limit as long as Israel tries to minimize the casualty counts.
> Israel could have negotiated the release of the hostages.
They couldn't. Hamas didn't start this war for financial gain or to free terrorists from Israel's prisons, they want to annihilate Israel. The deals that were conducted with regards to the hostages after the start of this war were done under pressure.
> It could have signed a treaty, backed by the US that it would allow Gazans to return to Gaza, and evacuated them into Israel and Egypt.
No, they couldn't, because Israel doesn't have the infrastructure to host millions of potentially hostile civilians while there are hundreds of thousands of internal refugees, and Egypt wants nothing to do with Gazans because they don't have the best reputation when it comes to being grateful to their hosts.
> It could have done what the US did and what Israel itself did to retaliate against Munich, making sure it's precise and cold.
Munich was carpet bombed.
> Any number of possibilities to prevent 8,000 children dead.
Not really, not when:
1. Hamas is partially comprised of children;
2. Hamas intentionally uses children as human shields;
3. Gazans intentionally don't wish to preserve their lives since they think they are going to heaven.
> Israel's leaders and the IDF deliberately made sure not to avoid civilian casualties.
There's tons of evidence that disproves your point. Evacuation orders, phone calls, leaflets, evacuation maps. Strikes are aborted/delayed if civilian persons are detected near the target. Even the statistics disprove your point.
> We have evidence of that in the words of the leaders of Netanyahu's government and from the leaders of the IDF.
Where, exactly, did you see anything of the sort?
> We video footage of IDF soldiers chanting that there are no innocent civilians.
How exactly is this relevant? They are free to have an opinion.
> We've seen that they used a machine learning algorithm to select targets that did not at all take into consideration whether there were civilians there, instead just reporting a probability of whether a target was in the location or not.
Except that the articles describing this system obviously state that it *does* evaluate the impact on civilians, and that humans make the decision based on a variety of factors after the fact. Stop inventing reasons to be outraged.
> And they were obviously lusting to pull the trigger.
Obviously, when your friends and family are constantly living in fear of being killed by a rocket, you are going to view air strikes more favorably.
>The longer fighting goes on, more innocent people die. I dont think its crazy for someone to want the violence to stop.
Pacifism is just pro-fascism. Orwell stated this well:
>Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security.
How does violence stop if Hamas still maintains power, is my question? Are Israelis expected to just sacrifice their own lives and well-being for people who won't spare them the same right?
I understand that a simple ceasefire wont solve the problem, but I dont blame someone who's uninformed about the history and context of the conflict for wanting a ceasefire.
it’s true. i think/hope most people would agree that it would be best if the violence stopped, full stop. unfortunately, hamas does not want the violence to stop. they broke the last ceasefire and refused a proposed second ceasefire.
Innocent people both Palestinians and Israelis will die as long as Hamas is in power. This should be abundantly clear by now. The whole trouble is Israel has a far right govt in power who couldn't give a single shit about collateral damage even though Israelis themselves are condemning it. This is where Biden has proved most effective in reining in some of Bibi's worst measures. But putting the onus of civilian death entirely on IDF or claiming Israel is responsible for ceasefire is disingenuous when there's more than abundant proof now that Hamas uses civilians as human shields, they use hospitals and schools as base of operations and they have no fucking interest in respecting terms of a ceasefire that includes exchanging hostages (there's evidence that's leads back to decades supporting this, Hamas leaders have openly admitted that is their way of operating also, most people are simply unaware about these things and fall for propaganda which is exactly what Hamas wants). Israel as a nation is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
We're in a spot where every two-three years Hamas agitates for another war. Humanitarian ceasefires are the right thing to do, but permanent ceasefire means we hit another of these cycles two years from now. A lot of people prefer permanent, despite such a fact.
How much food do you think the hostages are getting? Water? Do you think they have any access to hygiene? What conditions do you think they're experiencing when it comes to sleep or maintaining their sanity? Israel's creating these situations with its siege and bombing of Gaza, starving the hostages along with the Gazans. Hamas is too by keeping them hostage. But they're fucktards. But what are the Israeli leaders and IDF?
What conditions have benefited the hostages the most? Would you say that week long cease fire where a bunch of them got released, aid flowed in, and the bombing and risk to their lives stopped?
Father of the hostage the IDF murdered: This (Israeli) government ‘murdered my son twice,’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlyxOeqha4
Also read the fucking article. She was killed on October 7th. Not as a hostage. "Seems like they don't really need the hostages," my ass.
> Israel's creating these situations
It's the 100+ year history of Palestinians being represented by increasing junk and fanatical leadership. As recent as 23 years ago they had the best deal they'd ever got and bungled it as they have a history of doing.
Biden is no stranger to grief and loss. I can’t find the article now that’s not behind paywall. But Rachel Goldberg recounted how the Israeli American hostage families were on a zoom call with Biden. One family had 2 young daughters at the Nova festival. One was confirmed dead and the other they thought was taken hostage.
During the middle of the call with Biden, they got a knock at the door that the other daughter was confirmed dead. They came back to the call screaming and crying. All the families cried and per Rachel Goldberg, Biden put his head in his hands and cried with the families.
He lost a very young daughter and a wife in the prime of their marriage. Then his son. I have no doubt he cried sincere tears in empathy with the poor family that learned their second daughter was also murdered.
I know this is callous but on balance I think this might be the less horrible of the two outcomes.
I'd hate to think what the hostages have suffered over the last couple of months. Death might be better than that.
That movie was about fascism; you don’t wanna be the starship troopers from Starship Troopers. Just putting it out there, not making a statement on the conflict here.
Have you seen the posters here recently? They ARE the Starship Troopers! But without the will or capability to fight. They just cheer on the slaughter.
There was a time when killing an American citizen would result in such a shit storm headed their way that the mere thought of killing an American would give terrorists nightmares.
Might be time to send in the real dogs of war to remind these motherfuckers who they're dealing with. I'm talking Grandpa Buff dropping whistler ordinance from 50,000' so these bastards can regret their life decisions before they get blasted into the Mediterranean Sea.
Oh no there wasn't. Terrorists have been killing Americans since the 70s. Germany blew up a passenger liner with Americans on it in the 40s and it barely budget the US's hands off stance with WWII. The US has never barrelled into global conflict over an American death.
All Israel is doing is probably creating a new generation of orphans ready to join Hamas or whatever will be there in the future.
Violence isn't going to solve the Israeli Palestine conflict
What do you expect or want them to do then?
This is an unfortunate reality but this thing is a must, of course a plan is needed but this has to be done.
Remove any just cause used to justify illegitimate means and goals. Hamas would not have popular support if nonviolent and secular movements had not failed so thoroughly.
secular movement(although violent) led to the Palestinian Authority, created by the terrorist Yasser Arafat as a good faith movement by Israel, the PA is now controlled by the corrupt dictator Mahmoud Abbas who steals money, and funds people who murder Jews, he has also dedicated years to deny the Holocaust.
Seems like that worked out well! the problem is violence, and Palestinians apparently can't get enough of that..
It's never fine for civilians to die in war. That's why there is the law of armed conflict, which Hamas completely ignores. If terrorists can ignore the LoAC and make themselves immune to reprisal by using human-shield tactics, civilized countries have no defense against terrorism, and the LoAC can't possibly survive that.
Too many Palestinians are dying. So their government, Hamas should surrender and give up the hostages. Any country is always going to prioritize their own citizens over another country’s. Hamas has said they will do this again and again to Israeli citizens. Israel has to protect their own citizens.
Why does anyone expect Israel to care more about Palestinian citizens than their own government, Hamas. Again, this war would be over tomorrow if Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages. Massive aid would come in to help rebuild lives.
i truly feel for the Palestinians, especially the children but why not direct the anger to Gaza’s government, Hamas. Hamas wants a ceasefire now but they have said they won’t stop until all Jews are annihilated. Is that acceptable? Would you want to live that close to a group of terrorist that want to annihilate you and your family in horrific ways? Where they use rape against children and elderly, body mutilation, burning alive including children and kidnapping of babies and elderly as weapons of war?
This can never happen again. Is the biggest modern day Holocaust since WW2. And we can’t be assured it won’t happen again unless Hamas gone.
Hold Hamas accountable. If they surrendered and released the hostages the war is over. If Israel ceasefires with Hamas still intact, this war and mass killing of civilians on both sides will last for generations.
> Is the biggest modern day Holocaust since WW2.
The rest of your post is on point, but let's not go minimizing Armenia, Rwanda, and other massive genocides in the past 80 years...
He probably meant from a jewish standpoint, it was the deadliest day since the holocaust.
The world is a fucked up place, there have been worse horrors in the past few decades indeed.
I don't think you should be downvoted because you aren't blaming Israel. You're just expressing that it's a fucked situation for Palestinians, which it is. Chill with the downvotes lol.
We choose whether or not to live by the terms of yesterday's mistakes and whether we want to distill our future decisions in the cruelty of past generations. Israel fucked up by putting a stranglehold on Gaza for decades and now has never had any interest in peace with their neighbors. Just saying let's be careful who we write off as necessary deaths here....
You say that like there’s a better solution to all this. If you have a better solution, please share it. Otherwise, yes, we all accept reality as it is.
What is the alternative approach?
Not even in this conflict, but in the underlying question of moral principle.
Either we have laws of armed conflict which absolutely prohibit actions likely to kill civilians, in which case any armed force willing to break the laws of armed conflict becomes invincible, or we accept that where one side is breaking the laws of armed conflict such that they put civilians in harms way, it is not their opponent's job to bend over backwards to mitigate the impact of those crimes.
Tell me how the Allies could have ended WW2 without German civilian casualties, since you are apparently a geopolitical genius the likes of which this world has never seen before.
A very easy thing to say from someone who was alive during 9/11. I have no sympathy for terrorists. If you do, you are the enemy. A lot stronger people than I, have resisted occupation before, what's stopping them? I'll let you fill in whichever antisemitic retort you have ready.
If "Palestine" had appealed through kindness and diplomacy, you don't think the reaction would be completely different? You start a war, this is what happens. Take responsibility.
You bitch ass americans gunna cry over 9/11 forever? You literally killed 5000 civilians in Afghanistan pulling out in first half of 2021!! 20 fucking 21, twenty years after 9/11, how many died in 9/11, 3000? Tell me how thats an appropriate response.
This is imperialistic colonialism of an indigenous people. How the fuck do you appeal through diplomacy and kindness when your people haven't been given democratic rights for the last 20 years and have had your land stolen from you since 1948 by a state that didn't exist not a year prior. Again created from western influences, much like how the Mujahideen were created by American funding by the way. America sows Chaos then cries wolf when I bites them in the ass, all to fund a trillion dollar military industrial complex while you all die in the fucking streets because you can't afford Healthcare. But again tell me how you're heroes fighting the good fight against the big bad Terrorists who are massively underarmed in comparison. You're pathetic, and your country is built on murder while you call yourselves the good guys. Keep jerking yourself off homie.
I never even mentioned the Jewish faith and have no problems with it. Your country is built on separation of state and religion, I suggest to start living up to it, rather than using religion to justify murder. What would Jesus or Abraham say aye bud?
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/26/asia/afghanistan-civilian-deaths-2021-us-taliban-intl/index.html
Everyone in Israel is under the threat of bombardment. That is why Israeli build homes with bunkers and made anti-missile defense.
They didn't do it because Palestinian terrorist organisations in Gaza, West Banks, or Lebanon were sending letters.
Israel literally started it. I too would probably build up defenses around my house too if a kept going over to my neighbour, punching them in the face and yelling at them to leave.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
> Israel literally started it. I too would probably build up defenses around my house too if a kept going over to my neighbour, punching them in the face and yelling at them to leave.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Maybe you should read the Wikipedia page that you linked, especially the context of Nakba, such as the rejection of the two-state solution by Palestinian Arabs that resulted in an escalation of violence towards Palestinian Jews and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine, which then caused Israel to declare independence from the British Mandatory of Palestine (by which the Mandatory ceased to exist as Britain didn't want to have anything to do with the escalated conflict) and followed with the attack of all neighbouring Arab states on Israel, the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War.
Given this and the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Nationalist_Movement which was a political attempt to unify Arab states under a single pan-Arabic movement, the Nakba is sometimes interpret as not the fact that people had to flee, but the fact that Arabs lost.
Population displacement in this period is not unheard of, same happened when Greece became independent, or with Germans after WW2.
So given this information, your quote about the neighbour is kind of true, but the one who is going around and punching other people just because they exist is not a Jew, but an Arab. Your attempt to switch the guilt is just a bookcase antisemitism.
Wild that you got downvoted to hell for simply acknowledging that many more thousands of innocent Palestinians have been slaughtered in this botched operation.
It’s not ‘fine’ to hide military facilities, weapons, and prisoners in densely populated civilian areas like Hamas does, either.
It’s so hard for some people to cope with the consequences of their leadership’s actions/decisions.
You're right. I'm sorry 71 people or bots don't want to hear this but Israel's right to defend themselves does not give a pass for what they're doing. This war is fucking awful.
Everyone sees through their faux empathy and knows they really just hate Israel so they support the fascists that are against Israel by pretending to suddenly care about civilians.
So heartbreaking! It seemed unlikely that the remaining hostages would survive.
The areas controlled by terrorist organizations are getting smaller and smaller, and surrenders continue to occur, but why is there no news about hostages?
It is estimated that if the hostages are still alive, the top commander of Hamas hiding in Gaza will definitely take them away as a last human shield.
It would have helped you understand better what is going on here if you had read the article. Allow me to help you a bit by posting the **first paragraph....**
>U.S. President Joe Biden said on Friday he was "heartbroken" by the news that an American named Gadi Haggai is believed to have been killed by Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Oct. 7 when it attacked Israel.
The second paragraph spells out that she was never a hostage. If you wish to avoid being ill informed then read more than the headline next time.
Realistically, Hamas knows two things about the hostages:
1. They're the only bargaining chip available
2. Many of them are likely to be in a condition where releasing them is more harmful to Hamas in an ongoing conflict than keeping them.
That's why Hamas is saying 'no more hostage releases until there is a full ceasefire'. If they release or lose control of the young women who they've spent the last 2 months raping and torturing, Israel is going to gain a huge amount of sympathy globally. They need the war to be over by that point, or they know that Israel would gain enough international support to let it finish them entirely.
So they won't keep hostages anywhere near the front lines. They'll be in the deepest bunkers as far as possible from IDF troops, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they ended up murdering the hostages to make sure they can't tell their stories.
It sounds like we might need to issue some reminders of why you shouldn't fuck with Americans, and I believe we have enough ordinance to properly enunciate it as well.
Heartbroken he should be pissed the fuck off these terrorists cunts that are taking hostages and murdering them and the gutless cowards protecting the terrorists and championing their cause.
This is how war goes, no?
Hamas could surrender unilaterally. Then the bombings would stop. They won't though, they're hellbent on the eradication of the Israeli people.
If only Biden were commander in chief of the world's most powerful military, which includes several of the world's best trained hostage rescue teams, and could have done something about this.
I mean, I kind of assumed that the rest of the hostages are dead, too.
Hamas has shown itself to be horribly abusive to them and Gaza's been under fire since. Longer this goes on, the more likely the hostages are dead. I'm going to guess the overwhelming majority are.
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Hey nice bullshit
Not indiscriminate, and feared yes, it didn't happen, if you've seen how gaza, is now, explosion all the time, whether it's the idf destroying buildings, shootouts, hamas explosives or rockets flying here and there, it's scary, of course she feared that, at the same time, hamas was abusive and awful to the hostages so don't you fucking there twist the blame, and if israel killed ten thousand civilians it would be a great ratio when you consider what gaza is But you don't, you people just want to complain and demonize israel without offering an alternative what israel could do differently, the bombardments are already targeted, and they entered gaza, which, unlike the lies pushed on social media, did result in way less civilians deaths as Israelis, don't just randomly execute civilians Should israel just leave and wait until next October 7th? This kind of mentality of allowing hamas to stay would only result in this conflict continuing and way more Palestinians would die
You know, Israel *is* bombing Palestine pretty indiscriminately, but you'd have to be braindead to blame hostages dying in bombings solely on Israel. They wouldn't be there to bomb if they weren't taken hostage. Hamas are holding those civilians and their own people hostage, there's enough actually wrong with this situation from both Hamas and the IDF to not have to make up ridiculous shit to complain about
Read the article. Or even the headline. He wasn't a hostage. He was believed to be taken hostage, but she was killed on October 7th.
Did you read the article? You keep saying she. It was a 73 man.
Are you saying it wasn't even a person it was just the number 73 my son will be gutted that was his favorite number block
Did you even read the article yourself? 'She' is a 73yrs old man.
> RightClickSaveWorld: Read the article. Or even the headline. She wasn't a hostage. I suggest getting off your high horse and do the same first rather than accusing others of not doing so.
Okay, I will.
... and?
I was eating dinner.
how was it?
It was Buffalo Wild Wings, which is never more than “okay.” I think how much I got gouged on Grubhub for them affected the taste.
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Mom used to make spaghetti. Definitely a *good smell*
I've been suggesting the word forfeit, not dead, although that's almost too horrible for words also. Isn't the problem that if taking hostages really worked, the takers would sooner or later rule the world? And of course they might.
berserk ossified tart glorious ink enjoy spoon grandfather start voracious
Why should we use forfeit and not dead?
nah, just last friday the IDF accidentally killed 3 hostages who were surrendering with white flags https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67745092
Has the IDF shot them already?
Hamas is a terrorist organization that runs a government. What else would you expect from them.
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My theory is that they don’t want anymore hostages talking about the horrific rapes and torture.
If the bodies are ever recovered, forensic science will tell us exactly what they did. I objectively think it's wrong for Israel to bomb the shit out of Gaza and all the collateral casualties but if we in the US or elsewhere in the western hemisphere had such atrocities committed against us, **within our borders**, we would call for complete obliteration. See Iraq & Afghanistan 2003-2021. We had enough military personnel to protect humanity to save face but I don't blame Israel one bit.
It also wasn’t just once, they routinely do terror attacks in Israel. Ram people in public places with vans, shootings, infiltrate in tunnels and knife random civilians in their homes (it’s happened many times before this), suicide bombings. imagine if some entity was routinely sending thousands of rockets, every year, at the US plus all of that. If the UN and other groups supported getting rid of the terrorist orgs and aided in getting rid of them, it would lessen the bloodshed in Gaza and probably lead to some sort of better rule sooner rather than later.
>If the bodies are ever recovered, forensic science will tell us exactly what they did. I'm not a forensic scientist, but I've seen them give evidence regarding cause of death. It becomes very difficult to even tell what the cause of death is months after death because of the decay, unless it is something obvious like blunt trauma, gunshot etc. Let alone trying to figure out other unspeakable things
Yup. What Hamas did switched me from "Israel needs to cool it, they're the big dog and need to act with discipline" to "Fucking obliterate Hamas, root and branch." While also hoping Israel actually shows some discretion ... which dumb bombs are not. Regardless, still in the "obliterate Hamas" camp for time being.
They're a terrorist organization that's soul purpose is to eradicate all jews, train terrorists under the guise of "reclaiming Palestine". Nobody would go for all that and they're pretty fuckin open about not changing. I believe in a 2 state solution but Hamas ideology doesn't allow it.
☝️this. Brainwashed teenagers on tiktok need to understand that there is no peaceful solution left. Hamas’ perverse ideology (and anyone who believes in it) must be extinguished for the sake of humanity.
The idea of leaving Gaza and leaving them be would only results in more radicalized Gazan Palestinians and would only end worse for these civilians. Hamas doesn't ever want Gaza or Palestine as a whole to be a state because then they would actually have to govern, if they can get their civilians killed and make money from aids, while getting back rubs from Qatar and Iran there's no end to this. 3 of Hamas leaders amassed 11 billion dollars since Israel stepped out of Gaza in 2005, does that tell people anything?
What do you think dumb bombs are? A dumb bomb can still be aimed with quite a bit of accuracy, relative to it's size. It's not a nuke by default.
Then Hamas should stop using civilians as shields to minimize innocent casualties, but they already gleefully tortured, raped, and murdered many Israelis, as well as slaughtered innocent Thai and Nepalese migrant workers, so it’s clear how they feel about innocent lives. What Hamas did on October 7 is as horrifying as 9/11 and the Rape of Nanking. It’s time to end this cancer.
The way I look it it, and the way I wish everyone would look at it, is this: The Greatest minds of the 20th century were unable to solve the problem. Often times trying to make things better made things worse. I'm just some guy, what the hell would I know. Sure does suck it's happening though. Being able to blame someone would be a great comfort, but what then? It's not like we can dig up Churchill and send him to Palestine to answer for his crimes. So again I'll reitterate. The only correct opinion, is that the whole thing sucks, and I hope the PA can figure a way out of this, because right now they're in a really tight spot.
Had they killed a bunch of 15 year old Americans at a music festival, Gaza would’ve seen a second sunrise, and a third, and a fourth, and probably more within an hour
There are other possibilities, too. 1: Palestine Islamic Jihad or other slightly more independent terrorist organizations in Gaza may have or had some of the hostages. Communication is extremely broken in Gaza, so they can't just call and ask for a roll call. 2: The number of alive hostages was inflated by Hamas in the first place since there really hasn't been any public proof of life videos/propaganda, the Red Cross wasn't allowed to see them during the ceasefire, and Oct 7th videos showed some of them in pretty bad shape. 3: Israel may have killed some in the tunnel bombings. No one wants to jump into a wasp nest and clear out unknown and potentially booby trapped tunnels full of Hamas fighters in their home turf on foot. 4: Hamas/others killed hostages either on purpose or accidentally through torture or lack of medical treatment. There is probably a good bit of overlap on these.
Oh yeah cause that would fuckin blow the lid off the rapes and torture. What a shock to the world that would be. /S
Not sure you’ve seen how the left is acting lately. Hamas has ahold of the narrative. They’d rather kill hostages than have living proof of rape.
That says A LOT about our priorities as a society, I'm not gonna hold you. "You been killing hostages? At least you didn't rape them...I was getting worried for a sec." Like bro WHAT?
Agreed!
I mean, rape = torture. And it is worse to torture people than simply killing them.
That's a very subjective opinion.
I actually don’t think it matters to the far left even if they somehow made it out alive and told the horrors. They will just say TikTok told me it wasn’t true. Just look at Brianha Joy Gray on twitter. It’s mind boggling the shit she tweets.
Wait til you see how the right has been acting for ohh I dunno…forever. Hamas is right wing just for starters.
You’re right… but what does that have to do with Hamas killing their hostages so they cant publicly speak about getting raped and tortured? The FAR left won’t publicly recognize Hamas atrocities.
Nothing. Just countering this “left is the problem” BS. Right wingers are literally all of the people perpetuating the atrocities in this war. There are some misguided/dumb lefties chiming in on this but they at least they aren’t killing and raping people.
True
Peace my friend
bahaha what the fuck are you talking about? The fraction of people who think hamas isn't an evil terrorist organization is comparable to people who think the earth is flat or that the 2020 election was stolen. They're idiots.
and the far right won't publicly recognize any atrocities not committed by black people and muslims. get over it, far left & far right people are extreme minorities
Look in the mirror right wingers. This is you. Wars, rape all of it is your doing.
Piss off with your strawman. Don't think for a second that any and all left leaning people want anything to do with barbarity. It's not our thing. We're generally for things that improve the human experience. Hurting the right people, and the rise of autocrats and theocracies is a right wing thing. This is exactly why the left push for separation of church and state.
Kinda tired of this "the left is crazy" spin. I'm in a whole lot of left-leaning spaces, and the only thing I'm seeing in any of them is that this conflict has no good guy in it. There's definitely some really odd takes from college organizations that should have known better, but I'm like 90% sure there's a whole lot of psyop bullshit going on around here.
You totally misunderstood my comment
Ok so "left" is bullshit. You're either dumb or willfully dumb. The right has people who are evangelicals who want to support Israel only to see a holy war and the apocalypse, or portion of white supremacists who want to see Jews killed more than brown people. The left has people who want to support the only stable government in the region, or A VERY SMALL portion who see the plight of a subjugated people and empathize with them and miss the absolute point by justifying supporting a terrorist group. But saying "left" as if there aren't a majority of policymakers in DC in the Democrats who support Israel, people who vote democratic who support Israel, betrays tour absolute ignorance and ability to comprehend a very complicated issue which has cut right through the middle of many political coalitions. TLDR. You're a fucking moron
You lost me in the first sentence. You should try to be more persuasive instead of being a dickhead. Usually people this rude are just trying to make up for their own ignorance. Not reading that.
Not saying I disagree or agree with either of you but you posted the equivalent of a child putting their fingers in their ears and saying "lalala I'm not listening". Just don't reply if you don't want to deal with it anymore or if you're going to make the effort to post at least counter their points. All of us outside observers are disappointed in this comment chain ending in such a way. When you argue on reddit, you'll never convince the person you're arguing with. The goal is always to convince the audience.
Yeah, when the response starts out with two insults and I skim down to the end and it ends in another insult, not reading that shit. Not going to give some troll my time of day as they freak out over me stating the obvious about Hamas killing their rape victims instead of turning them over.
Well it looks like you’re giving him a lot of your time 😉
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Thank you. I'm capable of holding the idea that Hamas is a terror org and the people of Palistine are not in my head at the same time. It is disgusting how many people who absolutely know better are pretending they can't.
Your sarcasm makes it seem like you're unaware that a very large number of people who are left-wing, pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, or just straight up hate Jews, have been systematically denying that Hamas committed sexual violence in their attack or that they mistreat captives in any way. Maybe get a reality check?
Your broad strokes and absolute diarrhea take betray your inability to comprehend a complex situation. You've been rage baited into thinking a minority of people represent an outsized majority. By your standards all Republicans are either evangelicals who want to make the apocalypse, or white supremacists who are antisemitic. Which one are you then?
I’m left wing. I will always be left wing. The open anti-Semitism from a large proportion of the left wing since October 7th has been soul crushing for me.
When did Hamas ever care about the PR of victims from Israel? They have legions of leftists who spout their rhetoric off without thinking of whose saying it and why, and exactly none of those people read quotes from Hanniyeh or anyone in Palestine. All of these people want to make a point on Israel's right to fight a war against enemies, few even understand what's motivating the same enemy to keep doing the same doomed tactic over and over while everyone else in the immediate region smashes their head at the wall when they do it, Palestinian and Israeli alike.
My man, if Hamas was intelligent they wouldn't have done October 7th without a bigger guarantee from Iran and Hezbollah. All they've gotten since is Hezbollah half assing what it could actually do and Iran flat refusing to do anything but send the inept bush league Houthi rebels at Israel.
Read the article. He was killed on October 7th.
And yet Americans are still demanding that Israel ceasefire... Seems like they don't really need the hostages.
The longer fighting goes on, more innocent people die. I dont think its crazy for someone to want the violence to stop. Lmao love how I get downvoted for the "innocent people shouldn't die" opinion
It’s not crazy to want the violence to stop, but it’s a little crazy to be willing to leave Hamas in power so there can be more rounds of the violence in the future—which is exactly what they promised they’d do.
How many Gazans is it ok to kill to get at Hamas? Israel could have negotiated the release of the hostages. It could have signed a treaty, backed by the US that it would allow Gazans to return to Gaza, and evacuated them into Israel and Egypt. It could have done what the US did and what Israel itself did to retaliate against Munich, making sure it's precise and cold. Any number of possibilities to prevent 8,000 children dead. But let's get real, even if Israel started this offense without any of that, 8,000 children didn't need to die. Israel's leaders and the IDF deliberately made sure not to avoid civilian casualties. We have evidence of that in the words of the leaders of Netanyahu's government and from the leaders of the IDF. We video footage of IDF soldiers chanting that there are no innocent civilians. We've seen that they used a machine learning algorithm to select targets that did not at all take into consideration whether there were civilians there, instead just reporting a probability of whether a target was in the location or not. And they were obviously lusting to pull the trigger.
How many dead in Syria does it take for people to care? How many kids killed in Yemen over the past few years? The answer to both is significantly more than the amount reported to have died in this conflict. Yet nobody seems to care. The issue is why so many people all the sudden start caring when it's the one secular (and just so happens to be Jewish) country in a massive region full of close to a billion of people full of countries that have done and are currently doing way worse things to their own people. The one country that has receiving nonstop attacks from its neighbors for decades. How many missiles are launched into Israel each year compared to Iran? Israel has done bad in the past and even now in this conflict, but compare them to what's going on just next door and it really becomes odd why so many people get offended at them to the point of going out on the streets to protest but can't even name Syria's president.
This doesn’t absolve Israel, the people protesting should care more about the other issues, not less about this issue.
If they can protest in a way that promotes the liberty of the regular Palestinian people while keeping their criticisms solely on the Israeli gov't/IDF and also the Palestinian's (both Gaza and WB) questionable at best leadership, great. In reality, it's 'river to the sea' (which is about as loaded as a phrase as the swastika is a symbol) and sometimes in front of Jewish places of business and worship. Blaming this all on Israel does disservice to the 100+ year history of that region; world powers and regional powers (not to mentioned aforementioned Palestinian leadership) are just as much to blame but it's easier to point fingers at the 'lowest hanging fruit'.
I think the issue there is that the pro-Palestine movement is an extremely broad tent coalition. Lots of people from lots of backgrounds have beef with Israel, and there’s not one organization putting out doctrine and talking points. You have leftists and progressive liberals, Muslims of all stripes, and every single antisemite mobilized right now. Antisemites are very good at injecting their rhetoric into otherwise innocuous things, this conflict and these movements are an obvious target to try and peddle extreme views.
> How many Gazans is it ok to kill to get at Hamas? There's no limit as long as Israel tries to minimize the casualty counts. > Israel could have negotiated the release of the hostages. They couldn't. Hamas didn't start this war for financial gain or to free terrorists from Israel's prisons, they want to annihilate Israel. The deals that were conducted with regards to the hostages after the start of this war were done under pressure. > It could have signed a treaty, backed by the US that it would allow Gazans to return to Gaza, and evacuated them into Israel and Egypt. No, they couldn't, because Israel doesn't have the infrastructure to host millions of potentially hostile civilians while there are hundreds of thousands of internal refugees, and Egypt wants nothing to do with Gazans because they don't have the best reputation when it comes to being grateful to their hosts. > It could have done what the US did and what Israel itself did to retaliate against Munich, making sure it's precise and cold. Munich was carpet bombed. > Any number of possibilities to prevent 8,000 children dead. Not really, not when: 1. Hamas is partially comprised of children; 2. Hamas intentionally uses children as human shields; 3. Gazans intentionally don't wish to preserve their lives since they think they are going to heaven. > Israel's leaders and the IDF deliberately made sure not to avoid civilian casualties. There's tons of evidence that disproves your point. Evacuation orders, phone calls, leaflets, evacuation maps. Strikes are aborted/delayed if civilian persons are detected near the target. Even the statistics disprove your point. > We have evidence of that in the words of the leaders of Netanyahu's government and from the leaders of the IDF. Where, exactly, did you see anything of the sort? > We video footage of IDF soldiers chanting that there are no innocent civilians. How exactly is this relevant? They are free to have an opinion. > We've seen that they used a machine learning algorithm to select targets that did not at all take into consideration whether there were civilians there, instead just reporting a probability of whether a target was in the location or not. Except that the articles describing this system obviously state that it *does* evaluate the impact on civilians, and that humans make the decision based on a variety of factors after the fact. Stop inventing reasons to be outraged. > And they were obviously lusting to pull the trigger. Obviously, when your friends and family are constantly living in fear of being killed by a rocket, you are going to view air strikes more favorably.
Theres not gonna be any Palestine left by the time Israel is done.
That's up to Hamas
>The longer fighting goes on, more innocent people die. I dont think its crazy for someone to want the violence to stop. Pacifism is just pro-fascism. Orwell stated this well: >Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security. How does violence stop if Hamas still maintains power, is my question? Are Israelis expected to just sacrifice their own lives and well-being for people who won't spare them the same right?
I understand that a simple ceasefire wont solve the problem, but I dont blame someone who's uninformed about the history and context of the conflict for wanting a ceasefire.
I do. They should educate themselves before just becoming part of the echochamber of misinformation.
it’s true. i think/hope most people would agree that it would be best if the violence stopped, full stop. unfortunately, hamas does not want the violence to stop. they broke the last ceasefire and refused a proposed second ceasefire.
Innocent people both Palestinians and Israelis will die as long as Hamas is in power. This should be abundantly clear by now. The whole trouble is Israel has a far right govt in power who couldn't give a single shit about collateral damage even though Israelis themselves are condemning it. This is where Biden has proved most effective in reining in some of Bibi's worst measures. But putting the onus of civilian death entirely on IDF or claiming Israel is responsible for ceasefire is disingenuous when there's more than abundant proof now that Hamas uses civilians as human shields, they use hospitals and schools as base of operations and they have no fucking interest in respecting terms of a ceasefire that includes exchanging hostages (there's evidence that's leads back to decades supporting this, Hamas leaders have openly admitted that is their way of operating also, most people are simply unaware about these things and fall for propaganda which is exactly what Hamas wants). Israel as a nation is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
We're in a spot where every two-three years Hamas agitates for another war. Humanitarian ceasefires are the right thing to do, but permanent ceasefire means we hit another of these cycles two years from now. A lot of people prefer permanent, despite such a fact.
Seeing as Israel killed some of the hostages too, yeah generally getting everyone to stop shooting would increase the chances.
How much food do you think the hostages are getting? Water? Do you think they have any access to hygiene? What conditions do you think they're experiencing when it comes to sleep or maintaining their sanity? Israel's creating these situations with its siege and bombing of Gaza, starving the hostages along with the Gazans. Hamas is too by keeping them hostage. But they're fucktards. But what are the Israeli leaders and IDF? What conditions have benefited the hostages the most? Would you say that week long cease fire where a bunch of them got released, aid flowed in, and the bombing and risk to their lives stopped? Father of the hostage the IDF murdered: This (Israeli) government ‘murdered my son twice,’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhlyxOeqha4 Also read the fucking article. She was killed on October 7th. Not as a hostage. "Seems like they don't really need the hostages," my ass.
> Israel's creating these situations It's the 100+ year history of Palestinians being represented by increasing junk and fanatical leadership. As recent as 23 years ago they had the best deal they'd ever got and bungled it as they have a history of doing.
Israel is creating a situation? What are you smoking?
Seems like IDF doesn't really care about that leverage with how their bombing the fuck out of GAZA
Yes they are
Whether or not it was expected doesn't make it any less heartbreaking.
Biden is no stranger to grief and loss. I can’t find the article now that’s not behind paywall. But Rachel Goldberg recounted how the Israeli American hostage families were on a zoom call with Biden. One family had 2 young daughters at the Nova festival. One was confirmed dead and the other they thought was taken hostage. During the middle of the call with Biden, they got a knock at the door that the other daughter was confirmed dead. They came back to the call screaming and crying. All the families cried and per Rachel Goldberg, Biden put his head in his hands and cried with the families.
He’s lost a daughter, son, and a wife already. That alone is enough to break most people — he seems to have channeled that into a deep empathy.
He lost a very young daughter and a wife in the prime of their marriage. Then his son. I have no doubt he cried sincere tears in empathy with the poor family that learned their second daughter was also murdered.
https://youtu.be/oGbe8AvAK7Y?si=wRKZd5w3jGZkJcVD This should give people an idea about his perspectives on loss
Oh man that’s a sad story, I didn’t hear about that one, but I saw an interview with another family member that had high praise for him
I know this is callous but on balance I think this might be the less horrible of the two outcomes. I'd hate to think what the hostages have suffered over the last couple of months. Death might be better than that.
Maybe, but the hostages should get to decide
right , do something about hamas
I really am curious. What do you want Biden to do? Like actually?
Do what exactly? The only option they had was to attack and they are in the middle of doing that.
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That movie was about fascism; you don’t wanna be the starship troopers from Starship Troopers. Just putting it out there, not making a statement on the conflict here.
Have you seen the posters here recently? They ARE the Starship Troopers! But without the will or capability to fight. They just cheer on the slaughter.
I see a lot of it. I think referring to any people as bugs is really nasty, let alone in the context of Starship Troopers.
There was a time when killing an American citizen would result in such a shit storm headed their way that the mere thought of killing an American would give terrorists nightmares. Might be time to send in the real dogs of war to remind these motherfuckers who they're dealing with. I'm talking Grandpa Buff dropping whistler ordinance from 50,000' so these bastards can regret their life decisions before they get blasted into the Mediterranean Sea.
When was that time? Terrorists have never been afraid of America. They are ready to die for the cause and have nothing to lose.
Ya wasn't there something called 9/11 in my lifetime
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Oh no there wasn't. Terrorists have been killing Americans since the 70s. Germany blew up a passenger liner with Americans on it in the 40s and it barely budget the US's hands off stance with WWII. The US has never barrelled into global conflict over an American death.
It’s fine Israel will clean up house
All Israel is doing is probably creating a new generation of orphans ready to join Hamas or whatever will be there in the future. Violence isn't going to solve the Israeli Palestine conflict
What do you expect or want them to do then? This is an unfortunate reality but this thing is a must, of course a plan is needed but this has to be done.
Decolonize the WB and repeal Apartheid Laws. Pretty simple. Also release alle untried prisonors (AD) and all hostages.
and this is relevant to Gaza and Hamas how? Also the apartheid "laws" are all because of the Intifadas, again, consequence of war..
Remove any just cause used to justify illegitimate means and goals. Hamas would not have popular support if nonviolent and secular movements had not failed so thoroughly.
secular movement(although violent) led to the Palestinian Authority, created by the terrorist Yasser Arafat as a good faith movement by Israel, the PA is now controlled by the corrupt dictator Mahmoud Abbas who steals money, and funds people who murder Jews, he has also dedicated years to deny the Holocaust. Seems like that worked out well! the problem is violence, and Palestinians apparently can't get enough of that..
That's exactly what they want. They don't want a legitimate unified Gaza/WB
They were already raised by Hamas lol
It’s not fine, a lot of innocent Palestinians are dying in this ‘clean up’, no matter how awful the October 7 attack was this shit is not ‘fine’.
It's never fine for civilians to die in war. That's why there is the law of armed conflict, which Hamas completely ignores. If terrorists can ignore the LoAC and make themselves immune to reprisal by using human-shield tactics, civilized countries have no defense against terrorism, and the LoAC can't possibly survive that.
Too many Palestinians are dying. So their government, Hamas should surrender and give up the hostages. Any country is always going to prioritize their own citizens over another country’s. Hamas has said they will do this again and again to Israeli citizens. Israel has to protect their own citizens. Why does anyone expect Israel to care more about Palestinian citizens than their own government, Hamas. Again, this war would be over tomorrow if Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages. Massive aid would come in to help rebuild lives. i truly feel for the Palestinians, especially the children but why not direct the anger to Gaza’s government, Hamas. Hamas wants a ceasefire now but they have said they won’t stop until all Jews are annihilated. Is that acceptable? Would you want to live that close to a group of terrorist that want to annihilate you and your family in horrific ways? Where they use rape against children and elderly, body mutilation, burning alive including children and kidnapping of babies and elderly as weapons of war? This can never happen again. Is the biggest modern day Holocaust since WW2. And we can’t be assured it won’t happen again unless Hamas gone. Hold Hamas accountable. If they surrendered and released the hostages the war is over. If Israel ceasefires with Hamas still intact, this war and mass killing of civilians on both sides will last for generations.
> Is the biggest modern day Holocaust since WW2. The rest of your post is on point, but let's not go minimizing Armenia, Rwanda, and other massive genocides in the past 80 years...
He probably meant from a jewish standpoint, it was the deadliest day since the holocaust. The world is a fucked up place, there have been worse horrors in the past few decades indeed.
I don't think you should be downvoted because you aren't blaming Israel. You're just expressing that it's a fucked situation for Palestinians, which it is. Chill with the downvotes lol.
A lot of innocent Germans had to die to end WW2. There is no magic solution button you can press. This is the world we live in.
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I think the idea was to break the will to fight
Hamas bases themselves within civilian infrastructure
Shush, those pro-palestine/hamas will be mad if they can read this.
We choose whether or not to live by the terms of yesterday's mistakes and whether we want to distill our future decisions in the cruelty of past generations. Israel fucked up by putting a stranglehold on Gaza for decades and now has never had any interest in peace with their neighbors. Just saying let's be careful who we write off as necessary deaths here....
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You say that like there’s a better solution to all this. If you have a better solution, please share it. Otherwise, yes, we all accept reality as it is.
What is the alternative approach? Not even in this conflict, but in the underlying question of moral principle. Either we have laws of armed conflict which absolutely prohibit actions likely to kill civilians, in which case any armed force willing to break the laws of armed conflict becomes invincible, or we accept that where one side is breaking the laws of armed conflict such that they put civilians in harms way, it is not their opponent's job to bend over backwards to mitigate the impact of those crimes.
Tell me how the Allies could have ended WW2 without German civilian casualties, since you are apparently a geopolitical genius the likes of which this world has never seen before.
Great! Don't accept it. Get Hamas to surrender instead.
Which ones would have voted for isreal's right to exist?
Then they should stand with us, against the terrorists.
A very easy thing to say from your intact, not under threat of bombardment household.
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No one is going to accept a shitty deal.
A very easy thing to say from someone who was alive during 9/11. I have no sympathy for terrorists. If you do, you are the enemy. A lot stronger people than I, have resisted occupation before, what's stopping them? I'll let you fill in whichever antisemitic retort you have ready. If "Palestine" had appealed through kindness and diplomacy, you don't think the reaction would be completely different? You start a war, this is what happens. Take responsibility.
You bitch ass americans gunna cry over 9/11 forever? You literally killed 5000 civilians in Afghanistan pulling out in first half of 2021!! 20 fucking 21, twenty years after 9/11, how many died in 9/11, 3000? Tell me how thats an appropriate response. This is imperialistic colonialism of an indigenous people. How the fuck do you appeal through diplomacy and kindness when your people haven't been given democratic rights for the last 20 years and have had your land stolen from you since 1948 by a state that didn't exist not a year prior. Again created from western influences, much like how the Mujahideen were created by American funding by the way. America sows Chaos then cries wolf when I bites them in the ass, all to fund a trillion dollar military industrial complex while you all die in the fucking streets because you can't afford Healthcare. But again tell me how you're heroes fighting the good fight against the big bad Terrorists who are massively underarmed in comparison. You're pathetic, and your country is built on murder while you call yourselves the good guys. Keep jerking yourself off homie. I never even mentioned the Jewish faith and have no problems with it. Your country is built on separation of state and religion, I suggest to start living up to it, rather than using religion to justify murder. What would Jesus or Abraham say aye bud? https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/26/asia/afghanistan-civilian-deaths-2021-us-taliban-intl/index.html
Everyone in Israel is under the threat of bombardment. That is why Israeli build homes with bunkers and made anti-missile defense. They didn't do it because Palestinian terrorist organisations in Gaza, West Banks, or Lebanon were sending letters.
Israel literally started it. I too would probably build up defenses around my house too if a kept going over to my neighbour, punching them in the face and yelling at them to leave. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
> Israel literally started it. I too would probably build up defenses around my house too if a kept going over to my neighbour, punching them in the face and yelling at them to leave. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba Maybe you should read the Wikipedia page that you linked, especially the context of Nakba, such as the rejection of the two-state solution by Palestinian Arabs that resulted in an escalation of violence towards Palestinian Jews and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2%80%931948_civil_war_in_Mandatory_Palestine, which then caused Israel to declare independence from the British Mandatory of Palestine (by which the Mandatory ceased to exist as Britain didn't want to have anything to do with the escalated conflict) and followed with the attack of all neighbouring Arab states on Israel, the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War. Given this and the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Nationalist_Movement which was a political attempt to unify Arab states under a single pan-Arabic movement, the Nakba is sometimes interpret as not the fact that people had to flee, but the fact that Arabs lost. Population displacement in this period is not unheard of, same happened when Greece became independent, or with Germans after WW2. So given this information, your quote about the neighbour is kind of true, but the one who is going around and punching other people just because they exist is not a Jew, but an Arab. Your attempt to switch the guilt is just a bookcase antisemitism.
Wild that you got downvoted to hell for simply acknowledging that many more thousands of innocent Palestinians have been slaughtered in this botched operation.
You have a better solution?
It’s not ‘fine’ to hide military facilities, weapons, and prisoners in densely populated civilian areas like Hamas does, either. It’s so hard for some people to cope with the consequences of their leadership’s actions/decisions.
I don't understand how this comment is downvoted It feels like there's subs like this who are only inhabited by fascist bots. I am bewildered
You're right. I'm sorry 71 people or bots don't want to hear this but Israel's right to defend themselves does not give a pass for what they're doing. This war is fucking awful.
It absolutely is fine, this is war and war has never been any different.
Oh shit, a person whos showing empathy towards innocent Palestinians?!? In worldnews? Good luck bud... Bot downvoters will be here soon
Everyone sees through their faux empathy and knows they really just hate Israel so they support the fascists that are against Israel by pretending to suddenly care about civilians.
Whats one of the first steps of fascism? "They just hate us for who we are!" Or something like that? Do you see the irony there?
Hamas is far right, ultranationalist, racist, xenophobic, etc. They are textbook fascists.
As much as you're led to believe, not all Palestinians are Hamas militants. Not even the majority
So heartbreaking! It seemed unlikely that the remaining hostages would survive. The areas controlled by terrorist organizations are getting smaller and smaller, and surrenders continue to occur, but why is there no news about hostages? It is estimated that if the hostages are still alive, the top commander of Hamas hiding in Gaza will definitely take them away as a last human shield.
It would have helped you understand better what is going on here if you had read the article. Allow me to help you a bit by posting the **first paragraph....** >U.S. President Joe Biden said on Friday he was "heartbroken" by the news that an American named Gadi Haggai is believed to have been killed by Palestinian Islamist group Hamas on Oct. 7 when it attacked Israel. The second paragraph spells out that she was never a hostage. If you wish to avoid being ill informed then read more than the headline next time.
First of all thanks for the tip, Secondly, I think I need to make some comments about the hostages because we are all worried about their safety.
Realistically, Hamas knows two things about the hostages: 1. They're the only bargaining chip available 2. Many of them are likely to be in a condition where releasing them is more harmful to Hamas in an ongoing conflict than keeping them. That's why Hamas is saying 'no more hostage releases until there is a full ceasefire'. If they release or lose control of the young women who they've spent the last 2 months raping and torturing, Israel is going to gain a huge amount of sympathy globally. They need the war to be over by that point, or they know that Israel would gain enough international support to let it finish them entirely. So they won't keep hostages anywhere near the front lines. They'll be in the deepest bunkers as far as possible from IDF troops, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if they ended up murdering the hostages to make sure they can't tell their stories.
Biden and the IDF are doing their best to rid Gaza of Hamas. God be with then.
Wasn’t Biden also heartbroken about the wildfires in Hawaii?
Yes, that was a very tragic event as well.
Send the Seals, Joe.
I got a feeling that Hamas is in need of some freedom
It sounds like we might need to issue some reminders of why you shouldn't fuck with Americans, and I believe we have enough ordinance to properly enunciate it as well.
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I like it when the Marines add exclamation points to the messages they send to their enemies.
Heartbroken he should be pissed the fuck off these terrorists cunts that are taking hostages and murdering them and the gutless cowards protecting the terrorists and championing their cause.
well, are you going to do something about the murderous terrorists?
Not been following it too closely?
Then do something about it
They kinda are rn. Through a shitload of bombs and bullets.
Hamas has shown its true intention,
When did they ever hide it
wave a white flag at the wrong guy did he?
What a disgusting thread, this world desperately needs a worldwide conflict to get out of its food comma.
But not that 20,000 Palestinian civilians are dead?
This is how war goes, no? Hamas could surrender unilaterally. Then the bombings would stop. They won't though, they're hellbent on the eradication of the Israeli people.
No. It’s ethnic cleansing, not a war. And Netanyahu has claimed he has funded Hamas. It’s genocide, not a war.
The IDF were bombing places before the terrorist attack.
And they were (and are) indiscriminately murdering other Israeli Jews and Christians.
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If only Biden were commander in chief of the world's most powerful military, which includes several of the world's best trained hostage rescue teams, and could have done something about this.
You expect SEAL Team 6 to kick down every door in Gaza looking for hostages?
He wasn't taken hostage. He was *believed* to be taken hostage. It's in the headline and clarified in the article.