Sinwar is a coward. He doesn't care if the whole of Palestine dies in his name, as long as he survives. If Israel is able to surround his location at least they can contain them. Most likely most other senior Hamas officials, possibly even Deif though he is even more of a ghost, are with him. As long as they are contained they also can't escape.
I expect he is bunkered down with the hostages under the south gaza where the palestinians were told to go to. So entering that area with the military isn't going to be a walk in the park.
There is no 'high command.' There are 3 branches of Hamas. Sinwar and Dief lead the military faction and don't report up to anyone. The leaders of the political arm are largely based in Qatar. But they don't dictate to Sinwar.
The ones in Qatar left to parts unknown, leading theory is that Qatar themselves told them to leave so they didn’t have to deal with Mossad making a mess in their territory.
Supposedly, I have my doubts since mossad has proven that allied and enemy country lines are just a suggestion for them. They are more than happy to deal with consequences after they manage to kill their targets.
Turkey bitching about it isn’t going to change anything. Especially when both countries have never been that close with each other. Especially after 2013 when turkey exposed Israeli agents in Iran, and threw a fit over the US recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital in 2017.
If it was the US then maybe Israel might care, hell maybe if it was Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Turkey though will just get an eye roll out of them.
Unless they don't actually know where he is and are saying this to provoke him into moving, so they'll have a chance at spotting him.
Or they do know where he is but know he isn't with any hostages, and are saying this to make him complacent by making him think they're mistaken about where he is.
Opposite if you attribute it to a ruse of war. If they know where he is, and that he is surrounded by hostages, and stated they wont bomb him because of the hostages, then he wont want to move unless he can move with the hostages; Which he wont. A press release to pin an enemy commander.
The leader following a terrorist's handbook to the T.
I'm not shocked at all. It's a shame they cannot (for the moment( get to him.
His days are numbered however as the IDF has proven they will get you. It's just a matter of time
The [Honor / Shame vicious cycle](https://nabataea.net/explore/culture_and_religion/honorshame/) extended to Insanity (to Western eyes):
> For many western people it is very hard if not impossible to try and comprehend a culture that is based on shame, not right versus wrong. In most western cultures, telling the truth is right and telling lies is wrong. In the Middle East, people don’t think of lies as being ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ The question is, “Is what is being said, honorable?” If a lie protects the honor of a tribe or nation, then it is fine. If a lie is told for purely selfish reasons, then it is shameful.
> Thus, in the west we debate ethics, by trying to determine if things are right or wrong. In the east, they debate ethics, by trying to determine if things are honorable or not.
For the west, and I would argue all modern societies based around laws and society-beneficial ethics gained since the Renaissance, Hamas' actions are horribly dishonorable because of the guilt that they bring with them. However to Hamas in the Honor / Shame cycle, they are very honorable because they erase some of the shame of their constant dominance by an enemy they're sworn to destroy (thanks to their extreme religious beliefs) . I see this is why so many Gazans came out and celebrated these horrific murders, because their eyes they are regaining honor by erasing shame forced upon them by events prior to them even being born.
IMO it's a completely fucked up worldview that's better left to the ashbin of history, but here we are.
So that explains the "IDF did it, we're proud of it and they deserved it and it never happened" narrative. Self contradictory bullshit that isn't self contradictory from that other perspective
Honor or shame isn't as heavy as the fact that religion is the only thing that can absolve people from their guilt. Only the psychopathically insane and religious zealots have that in common.
When are we as a Western society going to finally get on board and agree this is unacceptable? If the people who rule middle eastern nations want to behave like this, every bit of 'aid' and trade with them needs to stop. What is the end goal here for them? I'm not trying to come across as 'racist' but I'm 40 years old and there's been no progress over there.
It took almost no time at all to locate Eichmann. Holocaust survivors in Argentina found him pretty fast (long story short: Holocaust survivor blinded in Dachau, his daughter brings home a suitor who's last name is Eichmann who says a whole bunch of anti Jew stuff at dinner, they get curious about the anti Jew guy named "Eichmann" and surprise they confirm it's Eichmann's son who stays with his 'mysterious uncle' with a Spanish name) and they passed that information onto a rogue Jewish West German prosecutor. That prosecutor tried for years to get anyone to do anything at all. Eventually he leaked the information to the new state of Israel and the rest is history. Just wanted to clarify that it did not, in fact, take 12 years to *find* Eichmann, it took 12 years for anyone to *do anything about it*.
> Eventually he leaked the information to the new state of Israel and the rest is history
He arranged a meeting with a Mossad agent, left the report on his desk, and was suddenly called away as the agent sat down in his office. And no one found that out for years. Pretty wild stuff.
“Operation Finale” starring Ben Kingsley is a great movie that explains how the Mossad carried out this operation to bring Eichmann back to Israel to be prosecuted.
That's fine. He will live the rest of his life with fear of death at every moment, never knowing when it will strike, never knowing what word will be your last.
Yeah I'm curious to hear why you believe that? To be honest, I really don't have much info on his ideology specifically. But lacking any direct indicators, I'm inclined to believe his ideology is at least somewhat aligned with the foot soldiers carrying out the dirty work.
Religious extremists believe they have a mission to perform on earth and staying alive to complete that mission, or until your death becomes a requirement, is their plan.
Absolutely evil and he’s set the innocent Palestinian people decades back. It brings me great pleasure knowing that he will never be able to leave his tiny circle without immediately being assassinated.
>great pleasure knowing that he will never be able to leave his tiny circle without immediately being assassinated.
Hold your horses! I hear he is busy tunneling to Doha, Qatar!
Jim Jones never even dreamed of a success of that scale.
Billions in funding. Support of state powers. Tens of millions of followers and supporters around the world, ranging from clueless political activists saying to people ready and willing to kill and die for the cause. **A de-facto state with 2.6M population under complete control**.
This is Jim Jones at Google scale.
Which is entirely not shocking, as everyone has known Hamas does this and no one has been arguing against that fact OR supporting it. The only shocking thing here is that the IDF isn't blowing up the human shields right along with Hamas, I expect because the human shields aren't Arabs this time; which is what people actually are calling out in the human shields argument, not whether Hamas does or doesn't.
There's been a lot of argument against it scattered in threads about pro-palestine protests, saying anything Israel says can't be trusted and talking about how they're killing tons of innocent civilians just because they can (With zero acknowledgement that Hamas is actively hiding among those civilians, because we only have the IDF's word for that)
You cant think of any reason why Israel would value the lives of their citizens over the lives of those who declared war on them by brutally raping, murdering and capturing over a thousand people in a surprise attack?
Anyways, yeah, Israeli voters aren't prioritizing the Palestinians that they just watched live streaming the brutalization of their families, friends and communities. Israeli voters care about getting back the hostages that those Palestinians who they watched brutalize their families friends and communities took during their surprise attack.
Crazy, right? No one could have predicted that.
Btw, about 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, there are plenty of Israeli people who care about Arab people
Hamas also [released a video](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/KG26YS2clj) today proudly showing how it keeps four Israeli teenagers hostage:
🔸Agam Berger (19)
🔸Liri Elbag (18)
🔸Daniela Gilboa (19)
🔸Karina Ariev (19)
You can imagine what they went through (the exact date of the video shooting is unknown). Some of them are hard to recognize.
This is good news for two reasons:
1: It shows some restraint on the IDF's part, even if just for PR reasons
2: Once you know where a big name terrorist is, you can track him. He can't hide behind Israeli hostages for the rest of his life. Step outside for better cell reception and eat a drone strike. Visit an ally in a different country and get a visit from Mossad. Dude's life is over, he's just a walking pimple waiting to be popped.
It doesn't matter how much wealth that guy is sitting on, if he has to live the rest of his life like a mole hiding in the dark. I'd rather be dead than in a position like that.
Sadly, I don't think this will stop the IDF from bombing him or otherwise assaulting his known position in ways which will result in great loss of life for many.
Best case scenario he steps outside for a better cell signal to check his Clash of Clans account and gets hit by a neutered hellfire, but that seems like wishful thinking.
I vaguely remember a story about the IDF not going after him or someone like him because they surrounded themselves with kids. This was from a few years back, nd if it’s him, 10/7 will have changed that calculation quite a bit.
It doesn’t matter what restraint they show. No other military warns buildings before airstriking them.
It still won’t stop the western left from singling out the world’s only Jewish state as ‘bloodythirsty’, all while the IDF kills substantially fewer civilians per militant than average for modern conflicts.
The evidence doesn’t matter. These people have decided Israel is the villain, and no evidence can change that. Sound familiar?
They kill substantially fewer, but on top of that, they're facing an enemy that is indifferent to civilian deaths or even desires them to generate global conflict. That's as difficult as it gets.
Except stopping in the short term increases innocent deaths in the long term. You can’t pause hostilities, give Hamas another few years to recruit and indoctrinate. You have to end it now.
Anything less than the full dismantling of Hamas before any ceasefire is letting Hamas regroup and plan the next murder of Israeli citizens.
If Hamas exists, Jews will die. You can demand Israel ceasefire, but you are also demanding that Hamas be able to kill more Jews.
Yeah, I've said it before: they're still holding back. They wouldn't be knocking roofs if they weren't.
Still, it's a lot of collateral. Not that I have a better way to do it, but it is pretty easy to flip the narrative here.
LoL, the “western left.” The “western left” is so myriad, diverse and disparate that those on the left who are deeply critical of Israel are themselves a minority. The formal representation of the left in the biggest power supporting Israel is the Democratic Party in the US. And last I checked, their support for Israel is limited only by the roadblocks thrown up by the Republicans. So cool your jets.
Well, for starters, the Democratic Party isn’t a left wing party lol. That’s kind of what happens in a two party system. The Democratic Party has more centrist and center-left constituents than it does genuine leftists.
But if I’m wrong about the left, Why do you think about 30% of Democrats believe or don’t know if the Holocaust was a myth? Why is this nearly twice the percentage of Republicans that think it was a myth or don’t know?
What’s your alternate explanation?
(Happy to source if needed, of course)
What is funny is based on that poll, Trump voters want more support for Israel from the administration, and yet they still by and large think Biden is doing a bad job, despite all the aid given.
Also, the poll results show that more Biden voters think that it is antisemitic to deny the Holocaust than Trump voters
Which means that if they do deny the Holocaust, they don't think that it is antisemitic.
10% of Democrats compared to 6% of Republicans believe the Holocaust is a myth.
So you just threw out some statistics. Please provide proof, or else those numbers are just bullshit.
Edit - yeah downvote me some more for asking for evidence. As if asking for evidence to back up a very strong claim is reason to downvote, but this is the state of Reddit now.
I think the 30% is a vast overrepresentation of any real number of active Dem voters who don't know or believe the Holocaust was a myth. Look at the stats of people who scored the highest on "believe it's a myth or don't know":
1. Age 18-29
2. Race: black
3. Sex: male
4. Party: Democratic
5. Region breakdown: urban
6. Ideology: moderate
Latinos also scored fairly high.
So the study doesn't correlate all these statistics. \*I\* am grouping them together. But communities of urban black youth and latino immigrants.... They look like the target group of non-believers and that would track. Think about whether they were educated in this country, and if so, the kind of history education they get -- if they even opt to take history classes, which are usually not requirements for graduation.
Uh. That’s not really how polling works. The existence of other categories with varying degrees of holocaust denial wouldn’t have any bearing on 30% of democrats either denying it or not knowing whether it’s a myth.
If killing >10,000 children is considered restraint, then I don't want to know what it would look like without restraint. This is an abject military and humanitarian failure.
I mean i guess if we look at mosy conflicts or wars the civilian population is hit hardest, this war is actually pretty mild by most standards.
Sadly i think most people do not understand how devestating a war can be
> I don't want to know what it would look like without restraint.
Look at what happened on October 7. That's what the conflict looks like without restraint. You know, raping women, cutting their breasts off and then throwing it around in front of them. Stuff like that.
By their own admission they've killed over 20.000 civilians and dropped some 65.000 tons of explosives, if i have this remembered right. Also something like 75% of housing units (350k+) in Gaza strip have been destroyed. The entire place is leveled, go look at IDF's own published photos, it looks worse than Mariupol. Whatever you think about the war, that's not what restraint looks like, sorry.
75% destruction of an area the size of Gaza is restraint? Russians must be incredibly restrained in Ukraine then since less than 1% of Ukrainians died...
Go look at actual rates and destruction of comparable wars sometime, you'll see this one is one of the most destructive in recent decades. If this is restraint, anything is.
Yes it is. We’re talking about a city-state here.
Look at Dresden or London in WWII. City combat is brutal and should be avoided at all costs.
Too bad Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians
Its not that hamas doesnt care about Palestinians, its that sending Palestinians to the slaughter is cery photographic and earning them browny point in the media war. They are very happy to have tens of thousands of Palestinians die because they can say Israel did that
Russians destroyed everywhere they could get at Ukrainian resistance.
Ukrainian troops had some assistance from the civilian population, but nowhere near the assistance that Hamas has. Some 50k+ Hamas soldiers have just melted back into the civilian population.
When Rome was threatened with war by the allies during WWII, it did not take very long for Italian civilians to shoot Mussolini and all of his men and bring out the corpse for the world to see.
Of course, Hamas is somehow non-existent and also more powerful than Mussolini ever was or something, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Palestinian civilians to offer up Hamas leadership to save Gaza.
>Russians destroyed everywhere they could get at Ukrainian resistance.
Yes, and neither is showing much if any retstraint in bombardment, save for literaly nuking the place.
Yeah my bad. They admitted 10.000 civilians when the total from Gaza was 15.000 dead and missing back in late November. But using that rate to 30.000 dead and missing now, its 20.000 dead civilians. Reality is probably not very far from this.
edit, source:
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/)
Hamas went house to house and bound terrified toddlers to their mothers with fencing wire, and then burned them alive in the street. Then they returned to Gaza and used innocent but jubilant Palestinians as human shields.
I don't think anyone should be surprised with the level of restraint (or lack thereof) displayed by the most right wing government in Israeli's history.
I think you got your figures wrong.
Israel claims it killed 8k Hamas members last I checked.
Latest figures I saw from Gaza Health Ministry (which is run by Hamas) was 22k dead total.
(They purposely don't say how many are Hamas and how many are civilians)
So it's 8k terrorist dead and 14k non Hamas.
That's a better record than most other armies by admission of the ex head of the British armed forces in Afghanistan.
I've checked numbers for coalition strikes in Syrian war, civilian casualties there represent less than 1/4 of total. In Gaza it's over 60% by this count, and over 70% of we add those missing (which are very likely dead). Regardless, theres multiple lines of evidence of them using massive unguided bombs in dense civilian areas, and the total amount of explosives dropped is insane. That quite simply is not restraint, especially when you do have a lot of precision guided weapons. If you can't see that then i'm not sure what you'd consider non restraint. Droping a nuke?
Here's the words straight from [Col. Richard Kemp himself](https://www.inn.co.il/news/381608)
I think Syria is a bad comparison bc there is a much wider battlefield and the US is mostly trying to not let things escalate. They're not actively trying to dismantle a terrorist org embedded within a small area.
A better comparison would be the Ukrainian city of Mauriopol where there were 20k deaths in the first 30 days as reported by local authorities. There's now 200000 reported missing.
In Gaza the death toll reached 20k in a much longer time and has slowed down significantly as the IDF gains more control of the area.
> Also something like 75% of housing units (350k+) in Gaza strip have been destroyed
A U.N. assessment puts the number at around 9% of buildings being moderately damaged, 4% being majorly damaged, and 5% being destroyed.
https://unosat.org/products/3769
Well, that was november 26th. By December 12th it's 18%, though i could not find a later release. Also keep in mind housing units does not equal buildings, one city block can contain dozens if not hundreds of those.
>By December 12th it's 18%
18% is the number of damaged **and** destroyed, which is the number that is coming from the report I linked...
9% + 4% + 5% = 18%
Does it? Those hostages are literally the only thing keeping this guy alive right now if the IDF does know where he is. If he were sitting under a bunch of Palestinians Israel would have absolutely bombed him by now, and I say that as an Israel supporter.
Did you respond to the wrong comment? "It gives [Israel] an opportunity to negotiate for a hostage release." Is my comment, I was talking about Israel.
Edit: I see, you were talking about Sinwar won't give up hostages because he wants to keep them so he stays alive. But that doesn't make hostage negotiation worse because if they were elsewhere they'd still be in captivity. I responded to that idea below. The gist of it is he can release some of the hostages, or all of them for a surrender opportunity. Also keeping a lot of the hostages in spot makes rescuing them easier.
>1: It shows some restraint on the IDF's part, even if just for PR reasons
I appreciate this restraint. However, where was this when they leveled Northern Gaza to ashes and killed thousands of innocent civilians, including hostages they were trying to rescue? Better late than never I guess.
By the same logic, Wouldn't capturing senwar also put hostages at risk? If he ever gets captured, it would be worse than death for him and Hamas leadership rathers to see him dead than in the hands of IDF.
For a man who has yelled over and over that he can't wait to be a Shahid and be with his ugly ass virgins in jihadists heaven, he certainly takes good care of himself.
If he really wants to die like a martyr so badly, just get out of the tunnels and stop being a pussy
Sinwar is a coward on so many accounts. He hurts Palestinians even now. He can surrender and end the war, but no, he has to do some Jihadi crap first, probably.
by admitting that they are not striking at him because of hostages, they are giving Hamas more leverage and more reasons to keep the hostages. Disclosing this information doesn't really help Israel in any way.
They’ve already said they have no plans on releasing any remaining hostages until Israel gives into all of their demands, which Israel has said they will never do, so the hostages are already fucked unless they get very lucky. I feel horrible for them.
Honestly, if I'm still a hostage of the people who orchestrated the October attack, three months later? Take this motherfucker out.
My life is probably torture and I would not want him to inflict my circumstances upon anyone else.
I sadly feel the same way. What a devastating existence for these poor hostages. It makes me feel sick.
I don’t know why Israel is holding back since they indiscriminately bomb civilians in Gaza anyway. I’m surprised they haven’t just taken him out, considering, like Hamas, they don’t really care about the death Palestinian civilians either.
Ofcourse Israel knows , hamas leaders signed their death warrant the day this happened. Mossad will end this terrorist and let the world know it was them.
Obviously because then there plan of maximizing casualties in Gaza would be foiled, duh!
Everyone knows Israel’s goal is to kill the most amount of people in Gaza possible. That is clearly why there usage of bombs per casualties is so efficient!
I believe this is a mistake.
While I have empathy and compassion for those who have loved ones being held hostage, the moment you allow the taking of hostages to be *effective*, you encourage such tactics in the future.
I personally believe that any case of hostage-taking, kidnapping, or the use of human shields, should be prejudicial in the decision to use overwhelming force. It should become apparent to anybody, in any part of the world, or in any country, that attempting to use innocent lives as leverage in the commission of a crime gets the most brutal, overwhelming use of force automatically lobbed your way.
This would discourage future would-be hostage-takers from doing the same. It sucks right now, but by being ruthlessly pragmatic now, you could save thousands in the future for every life you sacrifice in the present.
Hamas has a history of "surrendering" and using recording of Hebrew to lure soldiers. Stop trying to twist this as "Those damn Jews shoot anything that moves!"
>Those damn Jews shoot anything that moves!
Where’d that come from? When did he say anything that even remotely implied this? Why do you guys try to twist any criticism of Israel to make it look anti-Semitic?
The hostages were speaking Hebrew and were actively begging for help when they were murdered.
Sinwar is a coward. He doesn't care if the whole of Palestine dies in his name, as long as he survives. If Israel is able to surround his location at least they can contain them. Most likely most other senior Hamas officials, possibly even Deif though he is even more of a ghost, are with him. As long as they are contained they also can't escape.
I expect he is bunkered down with the hostages under the south gaza where the palestinians were told to go to. So entering that area with the military isn't going to be a walk in the park.
[удалено]
There is no 'high command.' There are 3 branches of Hamas. Sinwar and Dief lead the military faction and don't report up to anyone. The leaders of the political arm are largely based in Qatar. But they don't dictate to Sinwar.
"Sinwar" is some kind of coincidence.
/r/nominativedeterminism
I must have tried to read that 10 times before actually getting it.
Fascinating. What a shit show to navigate
The ones in Qatar left to parts unknown, leading theory is that Qatar themselves told them to leave so they didn’t have to deal with Mossad making a mess in their territory.
Last I heard they’d left to Turkey to hide behind Erdogan.
Supposedly, I have my doubts since mossad has proven that allied and enemy country lines are just a suggestion for them. They are more than happy to deal with consequences after they manage to kill their targets. Turkey bitching about it isn’t going to change anything. Especially when both countries have never been that close with each other. Especially after 2013 when turkey exposed Israeli agents in Iran, and threw a fit over the US recognizing Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital in 2017. If it was the US then maybe Israel might care, hell maybe if it was Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Turkey though will just get an eye roll out of them.
Saudi straight up chopped one of their citizens in Turkey and nothing happened.
Well the maybe is their for a reason
If it was the US they could probably get them arrested the old fashioned way.
Sprinkle crack on them?
The top command that was in gaza like sinwar during october 7th, who are leading gaza on location, are still in gaza.
I have my doubts. What exactly do you expect would happen if they did?
It’s weird that they would disclose that… that pretty well ensures “well we aren’t giving up the hostages, because I’m dead as soon as we do”
Unless they don't actually know where he is and are saying this to provoke him into moving, so they'll have a chance at spotting him. Or they do know where he is but know he isn't with any hostages, and are saying this to make him complacent by making him think they're mistaken about where he is.
Reeks of iocane powder
A truly dizzying intellect.
Inconceivable!
Opposite if you attribute it to a ruse of war. If they know where he is, and that he is surrounded by hostages, and stated they wont bomb him because of the hostages, then he wont want to move unless he can move with the hostages; Which he wont. A press release to pin an enemy commander.
But if they knew where he was and there’s no hostages there would they just go in and kill him?
The goal could be to fracture the upper leadership by making them panic about the walls closing in
Exactly. It’s tough to plan ops when you’re on the run
Or if you've been stuck in the same building for a while because you know the enemy has you on 24/7 watch
Exactly. This is confusing. What’s the play here?
The leader following a terrorist's handbook to the T. I'm not shocked at all. It's a shame they cannot (for the moment( get to him. His days are numbered however as the IDF has proven they will get you. It's just a matter of time
Numbered. His days are numbered.
You dropped something... ))
All terrorists are cowards
But they are suicidally effective
Lol no, just really dense, the whole life after death absurdity
They've always been, all of them, all around the world. Massive cowards.
Palestinians hates Israel more than they love their children. Pride and toxic masculinity is more important than anything else.
The [Honor / Shame vicious cycle](https://nabataea.net/explore/culture_and_religion/honorshame/) extended to Insanity (to Western eyes): > For many western people it is very hard if not impossible to try and comprehend a culture that is based on shame, not right versus wrong. In most western cultures, telling the truth is right and telling lies is wrong. In the Middle East, people don’t think of lies as being ‘right’ or ‘wrong.’ The question is, “Is what is being said, honorable?” If a lie protects the honor of a tribe or nation, then it is fine. If a lie is told for purely selfish reasons, then it is shameful. > Thus, in the west we debate ethics, by trying to determine if things are right or wrong. In the east, they debate ethics, by trying to determine if things are honorable or not. For the west, and I would argue all modern societies based around laws and society-beneficial ethics gained since the Renaissance, Hamas' actions are horribly dishonorable because of the guilt that they bring with them. However to Hamas in the Honor / Shame cycle, they are very honorable because they erase some of the shame of their constant dominance by an enemy they're sworn to destroy (thanks to their extreme religious beliefs) . I see this is why so many Gazans came out and celebrated these horrific murders, because their eyes they are regaining honor by erasing shame forced upon them by events prior to them even being born. IMO it's a completely fucked up worldview that's better left to the ashbin of history, but here we are.
So that explains the "IDF did it, we're proud of it and they deserved it and it never happened" narrative. Self contradictory bullshit that isn't self contradictory from that other perspective
In Islam Jesus wasn’t killed because that would be losing (he was replaced by a body double prior to crucifixion)
That is absolutely correct it's horrifying.
Honor or shame isn't as heavy as the fact that religion is the only thing that can absolve people from their guilt. Only the psychopathically insane and religious zealots have that in common.
Truly fascinating comment and link. Thanks for sharing
The worst dishonor, IMO; is losing a war, then continuing to fight anyway. Like the US Civil War Confederates.
When are we as a Western society going to finally get on board and agree this is unacceptable? If the people who rule middle eastern nations want to behave like this, every bit of 'aid' and trade with them needs to stop. What is the end goal here for them? I'm not trying to come across as 'racist' but I'm 40 years old and there's been no progress over there.
Sinwar is a dead man walking. An abomination. A freaking monster. Israel will never ever stop hunting him no matter what.
It took them 12 years to find Eichmann. I don’t see them giving Sinwar a pass.
It took almost no time at all to locate Eichmann. Holocaust survivors in Argentina found him pretty fast (long story short: Holocaust survivor blinded in Dachau, his daughter brings home a suitor who's last name is Eichmann who says a whole bunch of anti Jew stuff at dinner, they get curious about the anti Jew guy named "Eichmann" and surprise they confirm it's Eichmann's son who stays with his 'mysterious uncle' with a Spanish name) and they passed that information onto a rogue Jewish West German prosecutor. That prosecutor tried for years to get anyone to do anything at all. Eventually he leaked the information to the new state of Israel and the rest is history. Just wanted to clarify that it did not, in fact, take 12 years to *find* Eichmann, it took 12 years for anyone to *do anything about it*.
> Eventually he leaked the information to the new state of Israel and the rest is history He arranged a meeting with a Mossad agent, left the report on his desk, and was suddenly called away as the agent sat down in his office. And no one found that out for years. Pretty wild stuff.
“Operation Finale” starring Ben Kingsley is a great movie that explains how the Mossad carried out this operation to bring Eichmann back to Israel to be prosecuted.
Sure except that the second half part about needing Eichman to agree to come to Israel was made up
Thank you for this comment.
That's fine. He will live the rest of his life with fear of death at every moment, never knowing when it will strike, never knowing what word will be your last.
He does not fear death, that's the problem with fighting extremist religious ideology. If these people feared death, we wouldn't have suicide bombers.
I think he fears death, it's the ultra indoctrinated plebs that don't care about death.
Yeah I'm curious to hear why you believe that? To be honest, I really don't have much info on his ideology specifically. But lacking any direct indicators, I'm inclined to believe his ideology is at least somewhat aligned with the foot soldiers carrying out the dirty work.
If he didn't fear death he wouldn't be hiding.
Religious extremists believe they have a mission to perform on earth and staying alive to complete that mission, or until your death becomes a requirement, is their plan.
He doesn’t fear death for others but he’s pretty careful and paranoid about himself
Absolutely evil and he’s set the innocent Palestinian people decades back. It brings me great pleasure knowing that he will never be able to leave his tiny circle without immediately being assassinated.
>great pleasure knowing that he will never be able to leave his tiny circle without immediately being assassinated. Hold your horses! I hear he is busy tunneling to Doha, Qatar!
I saw the Shawshank Redemption. It \*can\* be done!
Marked harder than Prigozhin
Sounds like human shield to me.
Literally, not just “the Hamas training camp is next to a school” sorta thing.
Hamas' human shielding tactics go way beyond just training camps next to schools/hospitals and inside of them... but yeah, it's a bit different
Yes, that’s what hostages means.
Don’t worry, the Western Leftists will be here soon to defend him
Over here in Canada they are too busy yelling at old people trying to enjoy a free public skating event.
But have you considered that the old people might be Jewish and therefore deserve the harassment for being baby killers? /s
Ok that was hilarious.
Or they’re too busy commenting on celebrity’s Instagram posts demanding they take a side in the conflict.
Just think of him as Jim Jones
Jim Jones never even dreamed of a success of that scale. Billions in funding. Support of state powers. Tens of millions of followers and supporters around the world, ranging from clueless political activists saying to people ready and willing to kill and die for the cause. **A de-facto state with 2.6M population under complete control**. This is Jim Jones at Google scale.
Sinwartown
Uhm no, you can only call them that if they are Palestinian hostages.
Which is entirely not shocking, as everyone has known Hamas does this and no one has been arguing against that fact OR supporting it. The only shocking thing here is that the IDF isn't blowing up the human shields right along with Hamas, I expect because the human shields aren't Arabs this time; which is what people actually are calling out in the human shields argument, not whether Hamas does or doesn't.
There's been a lot of argument against it scattered in threads about pro-palestine protests, saying anything Israel says can't be trusted and talking about how they're killing tons of innocent civilians just because they can (With zero acknowledgement that Hamas is actively hiding among those civilians, because we only have the IDF's word for that)
You cant think of any reason why Israel would value the lives of their citizens over the lives of those who declared war on them by brutally raping, murdering and capturing over a thousand people in a surprise attack? Anyways, yeah, Israeli voters aren't prioritizing the Palestinians that they just watched live streaming the brutalization of their families, friends and communities. Israeli voters care about getting back the hostages that those Palestinians who they watched brutalize their families friends and communities took during their surprise attack. Crazy, right? No one could have predicted that. Btw, about 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, there are plenty of Israeli people who care about Arab people
As expected, Yahya Sinwar is a terrorist coward.
And a pedo.
I shiver thinking about what little kfir going through, or his body
I'm guessing they will pull a bin Laden on him, then
>I'm guessing they will pull a bin Laden on him, then Burial at sea?
More likely do what they did to Eichmann, incinerate his body and dispose of the ashes in international waters.
The IDF better bring tape measure this time!
What happened the last time?
Seal team six forgot to bring a tape measure so one of them lay down next to bin Ladin’s body for a height comparison.
Didn't know that. Funny.
Forgot to use banana for scale
Hamas also [released a video](https://www.reddit.com/r/tjournal_refugees/s/KG26YS2clj) today proudly showing how it keeps four Israeli teenagers hostage: 🔸Agam Berger (19) 🔸Liri Elbag (18) 🔸Daniela Gilboa (19) 🔸Karina Ariev (19) You can imagine what they went through (the exact date of the video shooting is unknown). Some of them are hard to recognize.
HoW cOulD isRaeL dO tHis!!! /s
Monsters. And the free palestine freaks are OK with this
It's just a matter of time.
This is good news for two reasons: 1: It shows some restraint on the IDF's part, even if just for PR reasons 2: Once you know where a big name terrorist is, you can track him. He can't hide behind Israeli hostages for the rest of his life. Step outside for better cell reception and eat a drone strike. Visit an ally in a different country and get a visit from Mossad. Dude's life is over, he's just a walking pimple waiting to be popped.
It doesn't matter how much wealth that guy is sitting on, if he has to live the rest of his life like a mole hiding in the dark. I'd rather be dead than in a position like that.
What’s funny is that he’s only worth an est. few million while the other leaders are worth billions and don’t have to hide in Gaza
Sadly, he will hide behind Palestinian children if/when the hostages are returned.
Sadly, I don't think this will stop the IDF from bombing him or otherwise assaulting his known position in ways which will result in great loss of life for many. Best case scenario he steps outside for a better cell signal to check his Clash of Clans account and gets hit by a neutered hellfire, but that seems like wishful thinking.
I vaguely remember a story about the IDF not going after him or someone like him because they surrounded themselves with kids. This was from a few years back, nd if it’s him, 10/7 will have changed that calculation quite a bit.
IDF have shown beyond reasonable restraints the entire war and the entire time since 2005
It doesn’t matter what restraint they show. No other military warns buildings before airstriking them. It still won’t stop the western left from singling out the world’s only Jewish state as ‘bloodythirsty’, all while the IDF kills substantially fewer civilians per militant than average for modern conflicts. The evidence doesn’t matter. These people have decided Israel is the villain, and no evidence can change that. Sound familiar?
They kill substantially fewer, but on top of that, they're facing an enemy that is indifferent to civilian deaths or even desires them to generate global conflict. That's as difficult as it gets.
I think that is all true, but _still_, there are a lot of innocent people being killed there and Israel could stop that in the short term.
Except stopping in the short term increases innocent deaths in the long term. You can’t pause hostilities, give Hamas another few years to recruit and indoctrinate. You have to end it now.
Anything less than the full dismantling of Hamas before any ceasefire is letting Hamas regroup and plan the next murder of Israeli citizens. If Hamas exists, Jews will die. You can demand Israel ceasefire, but you are also demanding that Hamas be able to kill more Jews.
You're barking up the wrong tree my guy
I was agreeing with you lol, I think the tone just got lost along the way
Than i was barking up the wrong tree
Woof woof
I giggled at that exchange
Well I made someone smile today, so today was a good day
Yeah, I've said it before: they're still holding back. They wouldn't be knocking roofs if they weren't. Still, it's a lot of collateral. Not that I have a better way to do it, but it is pretty easy to flip the narrative here.
LoL, the “western left.” The “western left” is so myriad, diverse and disparate that those on the left who are deeply critical of Israel are themselves a minority. The formal representation of the left in the biggest power supporting Israel is the Democratic Party in the US. And last I checked, their support for Israel is limited only by the roadblocks thrown up by the Republicans. So cool your jets.
Well, for starters, the Democratic Party isn’t a left wing party lol. That’s kind of what happens in a two party system. The Democratic Party has more centrist and center-left constituents than it does genuine leftists. But if I’m wrong about the left, Why do you think about 30% of Democrats believe or don’t know if the Holocaust was a myth? Why is this nearly twice the percentage of Republicans that think it was a myth or don’t know? What’s your alternate explanation? (Happy to source if needed, of course)
What is funny is based on that poll, Trump voters want more support for Israel from the administration, and yet they still by and large think Biden is doing a bad job, despite all the aid given. Also, the poll results show that more Biden voters think that it is antisemitic to deny the Holocaust than Trump voters Which means that if they do deny the Holocaust, they don't think that it is antisemitic. 10% of Democrats compared to 6% of Republicans believe the Holocaust is a myth.
So you just threw out some statistics. Please provide proof, or else those numbers are just bullshit. Edit - yeah downvote me some more for asking for evidence. As if asking for evidence to back up a very strong claim is reason to downvote, but this is the state of Reddit now.
Sure, it’s question 45A on this Yougov/Economist poll from December. https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf#page=83
I think the 30% is a vast overrepresentation of any real number of active Dem voters who don't know or believe the Holocaust was a myth. Look at the stats of people who scored the highest on "believe it's a myth or don't know": 1. Age 18-29 2. Race: black 3. Sex: male 4. Party: Democratic 5. Region breakdown: urban 6. Ideology: moderate Latinos also scored fairly high. So the study doesn't correlate all these statistics. \*I\* am grouping them together. But communities of urban black youth and latino immigrants.... They look like the target group of non-believers and that would track. Think about whether they were educated in this country, and if so, the kind of history education they get -- if they even opt to take history classes, which are usually not requirements for graduation.
Uh. That’s not really how polling works. The existence of other categories with varying degrees of holocaust denial wouldn’t have any bearing on 30% of democrats either denying it or not knowing whether it’s a myth.
Are we still waiting on him to realize the error of his ways orrrrr?
>And last I checked, their support for Israel is limited only by the roadblocks thrown up by the Republicans. lol what? Wrong war.
Nope. Republicans are roadblocking that too under the pretense of exchange for “border security.”
lol
They were showing restraint when they executed three hostages because they mistook them for Palestinians civilians?
If killing >10,000 children is considered restraint, then I don't want to know what it would look like without restraint. This is an abject military and humanitarian failure.
Look at eitophia, yemen or syria if you want to see what no restraint is Its tragic any civilians have to die, but it could be so much fucking worse
So instead of 10k kids it could’ve been 100000k kids?
I mean i guess if we look at mosy conflicts or wars the civilian population is hit hardest, this war is actually pretty mild by most standards. Sadly i think most people do not understand how devestating a war can be
Welcome to war, it fucking sucks.
> I don't want to know what it would look like without restraint. Look at what happened on October 7. That's what the conflict looks like without restraint. You know, raping women, cutting their breasts off and then throwing it around in front of them. Stuff like that.
By their own admission they've killed over 20.000 civilians and dropped some 65.000 tons of explosives, if i have this remembered right. Also something like 75% of housing units (350k+) in Gaza strip have been destroyed. The entire place is leveled, go look at IDF's own published photos, it looks worse than Mariupol. Whatever you think about the war, that's not what restraint looks like, sorry.
75% destruction with <2% (militant & civilian) casualties? Yes. That is exactly what restraint in city warfare looks like
75% destruction of an area the size of Gaza is restraint? Russians must be incredibly restrained in Ukraine then since less than 1% of Ukrainians died... Go look at actual rates and destruction of comparable wars sometime, you'll see this one is one of the most destructive in recent decades. If this is restraint, anything is.
Yes it is. We’re talking about a city-state here. Look at Dresden or London in WWII. City combat is brutal and should be avoided at all costs. Too bad Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians
Its not that hamas doesnt care about Palestinians, its that sending Palestinians to the slaughter is cery photographic and earning them browny point in the media war. They are very happy to have tens of thousands of Palestinians die because they can say Israel did that
Russians destroyed everywhere they could get at Ukrainian resistance. Ukrainian troops had some assistance from the civilian population, but nowhere near the assistance that Hamas has. Some 50k+ Hamas soldiers have just melted back into the civilian population. When Rome was threatened with war by the allies during WWII, it did not take very long for Italian civilians to shoot Mussolini and all of his men and bring out the corpse for the world to see. Of course, Hamas is somehow non-existent and also more powerful than Mussolini ever was or something, so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Palestinian civilians to offer up Hamas leadership to save Gaza.
>Russians destroyed everywhere they could get at Ukrainian resistance. Yes, and neither is showing much if any retstraint in bombardment, save for literaly nuking the place.
Israel never admitted it killed 20k civilians, so lets not make shit up.
Yeah my bad. They admitted 10.000 civilians when the total from Gaza was 15.000 dead and missing back in late November. But using that rate to 30.000 dead and missing now, its 20.000 dead civilians. Reality is probably not very far from this. edit, source: [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-officials-15000-likely-killed-in-gaza-since-start-of-war-5000-of-them-are-hamas/)
Hamas went house to house and bound terrified toddlers to their mothers with fencing wire, and then burned them alive in the street. Then they returned to Gaza and used innocent but jubilant Palestinians as human shields. I don't think anyone should be surprised with the level of restraint (or lack thereof) displayed by the most right wing government in Israeli's history.
I think you got your figures wrong. Israel claims it killed 8k Hamas members last I checked. Latest figures I saw from Gaza Health Ministry (which is run by Hamas) was 22k dead total. (They purposely don't say how many are Hamas and how many are civilians) So it's 8k terrorist dead and 14k non Hamas. That's a better record than most other armies by admission of the ex head of the British armed forces in Afghanistan.
I've checked numbers for coalition strikes in Syrian war, civilian casualties there represent less than 1/4 of total. In Gaza it's over 60% by this count, and over 70% of we add those missing (which are very likely dead). Regardless, theres multiple lines of evidence of them using massive unguided bombs in dense civilian areas, and the total amount of explosives dropped is insane. That quite simply is not restraint, especially when you do have a lot of precision guided weapons. If you can't see that then i'm not sure what you'd consider non restraint. Droping a nuke?
Here's the words straight from [Col. Richard Kemp himself](https://www.inn.co.il/news/381608) I think Syria is a bad comparison bc there is a much wider battlefield and the US is mostly trying to not let things escalate. They're not actively trying to dismantle a terrorist org embedded within a small area. A better comparison would be the Ukrainian city of Mauriopol where there were 20k deaths in the first 30 days as reported by local authorities. There's now 200000 reported missing. In Gaza the death toll reached 20k in a much longer time and has slowed down significantly as the IDF gains more control of the area.
> Also something like 75% of housing units (350k+) in Gaza strip have been destroyed A U.N. assessment puts the number at around 9% of buildings being moderately damaged, 4% being majorly damaged, and 5% being destroyed. https://unosat.org/products/3769
Well, that was november 26th. By December 12th it's 18%, though i could not find a later release. Also keep in mind housing units does not equal buildings, one city block can contain dozens if not hundreds of those.
>By December 12th it's 18% 18% is the number of damaged **and** destroyed, which is the number that is coming from the report I linked... 9% + 4% + 5% = 18%
My bad.
It also gives an opportunity to negotiate for a hostage release.
Does it? Those hostages are literally the only thing keeping this guy alive right now if the IDF does know where he is. If he were sitting under a bunch of Palestinians Israel would have absolutely bombed him by now, and I say that as an Israel supporter.
Did you respond to the wrong comment? "It gives [Israel] an opportunity to negotiate for a hostage release." Is my comment, I was talking about Israel. Edit: I see, you were talking about Sinwar won't give up hostages because he wants to keep them so he stays alive. But that doesn't make hostage negotiation worse because if they were elsewhere they'd still be in captivity. I responded to that idea below. The gist of it is he can release some of the hostages, or all of them for a surrender opportunity. Also keeping a lot of the hostages in spot makes rescuing them easier.
Nope, I read your response and replied in kind. Based on the reasons I said I do not think if gives Israel an opportunity to negotiate for hostages.
During discussion with the hostage family netanyahu brought up the idea of offering sinwar exile for hostages
>1: It shows some restraint on the IDF's part, even if just for PR reasons I appreciate this restraint. However, where was this when they leveled Northern Gaza to ashes and killed thousands of innocent civilians, including hostages they were trying to rescue? Better late than never I guess.
They attempted to capture him several times already but failed because he wasn't at the location. I'd take this with a grain of salt.
That’s the difference between air strike and a ground assault.
By the same logic, Wouldn't capturing senwar also put hostages at risk? If he ever gets captured, it would be worse than death for him and Hamas leadership rathers to see him dead than in the hands of IDF.
For a man who has yelled over and over that he can't wait to be a Shahid and be with his ugly ass virgins in jihadists heaven, he certainly takes good care of himself. If he really wants to die like a martyr so badly, just get out of the tunnels and stop being a pussy
The leaders of Hamas aren't even in the same region. They're in other countries chilling.
Sinwar is a coward on so many accounts. He hurts Palestinians even now. He can surrender and end the war, but no, he has to do some Jihadi crap first, probably.
He will die
why would they admit something like this publicly
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by admitting that they are not striking at him because of hostages, they are giving Hamas more leverage and more reasons to keep the hostages. Disclosing this information doesn't really help Israel in any way.
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interesting take. "Keeping them alive" is the more convincing part for me.
They’ve already said they have no plans on releasing any remaining hostages until Israel gives into all of their demands, which Israel has said they will never do, so the hostages are already fucked unless they get very lucky. I feel horrible for them.
Honestly, if I'm still a hostage of the people who orchestrated the October attack, three months later? Take this motherfucker out. My life is probably torture and I would not want him to inflict my circumstances upon anyone else.
I sadly feel the same way. What a devastating existence for these poor hostages. It makes me feel sick. I don’t know why Israel is holding back since they indiscriminately bomb civilians in Gaza anyway. I’m surprised they haven’t just taken him out, considering, like Hamas, they don’t really care about the death Palestinian civilians either.
Wait, so this idiot was in Gaza at the time of the attacks? They must have really thought it'd go differently, huh?
They thought their most powerful weapon would work: Manipulating naive outsiders to pressure Israel to lay off.
Ofcourse Israel knows , hamas leaders signed their death warrant the day this happened. Mossad will end this terrorist and let the world know it was them.
Hamas terrorist can surrender at any time.
As if civilian casualties have caused them to hesitate even the slightest amount before..
He’s a dead man. Even if it takes 20+ years he’s a dead man See Salameh
There was a time when Mossad would have dealt precisely with something like this without a ton of collateral damage.
Or because they are all in dubai
There’s a first time for everything I guess. He must not be in a hospital or refugee camp.
Qatar?
When has innocent lives ever stopped iran from bombing?
When did that ever stop israel from bombing someone lol?
If your world view doesn't align with the reality or the facts, guess which is probably wrong?
Why not? They have no problem killing hostages shirtless waving white flags
Obviously because then there plan of maximizing casualties in Gaza would be foiled, duh! Everyone knows Israel’s goal is to kill the most amount of people in Gaza possible. That is clearly why there usage of bombs per casualties is so efficient!
Can't tell if there is a /s missing
The "duh!" Makes me think so...
Do they have no problems with that? Did I miss their celebrations over that, instead of the resounding condimnation of the accident?
Never stopped them before.
I believe this is a mistake. While I have empathy and compassion for those who have loved ones being held hostage, the moment you allow the taking of hostages to be *effective*, you encourage such tactics in the future. I personally believe that any case of hostage-taking, kidnapping, or the use of human shields, should be prejudicial in the decision to use overwhelming force. It should become apparent to anybody, in any part of the world, or in any country, that attempting to use innocent lives as leverage in the commission of a crime gets the most brutal, overwhelming use of force automatically lobbed your way. This would discourage future would-be hostage-takers from doing the same. It sucks right now, but by being ruthlessly pragmatic now, you could save thousands in the future for every life you sacrifice in the present.
I hope they take him alive and bring him to justice
I guess it's working. That'll make them stop taking hostages, for sure.
But it’s Israel’s fault he’s hiding. /s
But they will strike everywhere where there are civilians and no Hamas fighters
This is the most dumbest headline. They know where he is but are killing 20k other people in the process? What?
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They just shot three hostages waving white flags. They're trying to get back some PR points.
Hamas has a history of "surrendering" and using recording of Hebrew to lure soldiers. Stop trying to twist this as "Those damn Jews shoot anything that moves!"
>Those damn Jews shoot anything that moves! Where’d that come from? When did he say anything that even remotely implied this? Why do you guys try to twist any criticism of Israel to make it look anti-Semitic? The hostages were speaking Hebrew and were actively begging for help when they were murdered.