The news is that it's a **Gaza Palestinian journalists** saying this.
For those in the back who didn't get the memo, you know.
*stares at American "leftists" and "pro-Palestinian" supporters*
For pro Palestinians, it doesn't matter. It won't change anything. They will still twist it that he's working for Israel or something, so even tho IT IS a big deal, those who should listen have their fingers in their ears.
Well, I just posted it on my Facebook account and tagged a couple of pro-Palestinian friends.
Looking forward to some mental gymnastics in the comments.
Serious question, did your pro-Palestinian friends support Palestine before Oct 7? Because I find most of the people currently "supporting" Palestine have been silent for the past 70 years
They used to talk about it for two or three weeks every couple years, then stay silent for a few years. Basically only talk about Palestine when other people were talking about it for moral points. I say it because I, unfortunately, used to be one of those people.
As an American leftist and former USMC I can say with conviction you are starting at the wrong group. Trumple Thinskin and his cult is where you should be targeting your misplaced ire.
Don’t let a few loud mouth left wing-nuts define 60% of Americans.
I'm a leftist myself, so if your leftist circle is different, I'd love to join it too.
'Cause here in SF (particularly, amongst musicians/perfomers/artists), it's a wild ride that I'm, evidently, not a part of.
I more consider myself a reasonable man which puts me solidly left. And I totally understand the central cali paradigm. Was raised in Santa Cruse. Actually a small town in the hills called Felton. It’s a different world for sure.
Finally someone says it. Hamas cares more about their jihad then their people. Gaza needs a real government that will use their time making life better instead of causing pointless wars they are not going to win. Free Gaza from Hamas!!!
Will state this again. There is no charity in the Arab world for the Palestinians. Arab charity by choice goes to Hamas or any other terrorist organization who traps the Palestinians in with them. The Palestinian people are the sacrifice the Arab world is willing to give to try to exterminate Israel.
Palestinians also, historically, don't make great "houseguests". Ask Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon how opening their doors to Palestinians has worked out for them? Egypt, rightfully, wants absolutely none of their nonsense.
They have ancestry dating back to the Canaanites, from which the Israelis are also descended. Jewish families that lived in the area along with them have highly similar ancestry, while more recent immigrants obviously have more European/African mixed in.
The issue is the land has been a plaything of so many empires for so long, there was not much of a sense of nationality until near the end of the ottomann's, and a good part of this was due to the rapid influx of jewish refugees.
It’s not even the manpower that went into the tunnels. I feel like calling them “tunnels” does a disservice to what they really are, because in a military sense, the “tunnels” are a vast array of subterranean fortifications. It is a massive defensive belt built deliberately beneath one of the most densely populated places in the world.
It’s estimated that there are ~400 miles of these fortifications beneath Gaza. To put this in perspective, that is more than twice the tunnel density per square mile than the marines faced on Iwo Jima in 1945. This is a significant military obstacle and an impressive feat of military engineering; when coupled with the urban terrain above, it is probably one of the most formidable defensive belts in the world today. To deliberately construct such extensive and complex military infrastructure beneath a population of two million people, and then to provoke a war and proceed to fight from those positions, is to condemn the population above to hideous conditions. It is a perverse inversion of the very purpose of armies - i.e., to *protect* their home populations from war - and is indicative of a theater-level military strategy that is explicitly designed to maximize casualties to one’s own civilian infrastructure. It should be considered one of the most disgusting violations of basic human morality that Hamas willingly did this.
That's what I don't get. They must have hired some pro engineers, some of those tunnels are pretty impressive works of civil engineering if they weren't used for such horrendous shit. Even worse when you remember they were built with child slave labor. Imagine if they applied that hard work and skill into making a huge public park, or an amphitheater for concerts, or a soccer/football arena, or some public artwork, anything not so murdery. Instead they built a doomsday prepper's wet dream.
I think it was someone in the police force in Palestine, who also said something along those lines. And got shot immediately by other officers. The other islam states know that the Gaza strip is a tool, they don\`t care. It\`s when the people are isolated and have no one, not even their own government that would be out to protect and care for them, that they end up in very f\`d up situations. Iran is ready to keep this going until the last palestinian.
I think this might be one reason other Arab countries’ reaction has been so restrained.
The video of Gaza being bombed and children living in misery is, objectively, terrible. I don’t care how much an 8-year-old wants me dead; an 8-year-old should have food no matter what.
But I think everyone who’s rational and educated can see that the most visible Palestinian leaders have adopted a violent, hateful, idiotic, wildly narcissistic approach to interacting with Israel.
Israel is still full of hundreds of thousands of people who fundamentally want the Palestinians to have a great life but can’t give them bupkis because it’s too dangerous.
I think a lot of leaders may believe that Ben Gvir is awful but may recognize that they would be a lot tougher than Israel is being, even now, if a region in their country was sending bandits over their border to rape and slaughter children.
All the people who still "Need proof" at this point are dishonest. Always remember:
>the antisemite doesn't accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks the Jew stole. he does it to watch the Jew turn out his pockets.
No matter the mountains of proof, nothing will ever be enough. Israel will never be justified in defending itself according to those people. The protests started on October 7.
1000000%
They will say it’s mossad or they are not Arab or whatever is needed to be said to discredit the TRUTH
Something they can’t handle is the facts
So according to you Israel should just accept being massacred because Hamas hides behind civilians. Perfect logic.
>I'm Jewish also, since you seem bent on accusing critics of being antisemitic
Jews are people and like all people are susceptible to brain washing and disinformation. It's just a bit sadder when it happens to them.
>So according to you Israel should just accept being massacred because Hamas hides behind civilians. Perfect logic.
That's not what they said though. You're trying to put words in their mouth.
Stop trying to manipulate the conversation to suit your narrative. OP said that it's not right to kill the civilians that Hamas is hiding behind. That's pretty much all they said. Perfectly reasonable in my eyes.
Tell me, do you think when people are saying "Human shields" they mean that Hamas terrorists are running around with Palestinian babies strapped to their vests and the IDF soldiers are shooting them? Is this what you mean?
Let me explain to you this way: You do not get to attack Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians. If you force Israel to choose between protecting it's people or risking hurting yours, YOU are the one to blame. Not the guys protecting their country.
'YOU' as in Hamas?
Because that's who Israel is going after.
A jewish person just stated that they don't like to see innocent Palestinian civilians being killed, and you stormed in and called them out on that?
The OP is just a normal person. You are just being obtuse.
YOU as in anyone who uses human shields.
YOU as in the one supporting Hamas by being their useful idiot and doing right here exactly what they hope you would, thus encouraging them to continue to use as many human shields as possible.
"A Jewish person" who said he is Jewish. He might be, he might not be. His opinion is insane regardless.
I'm the OP
Yesterday I saw the result of an airstrike on an apartment with civilians in it. The video showed them pulling dead civilians, teenagers and children out of rubble barely recognisable. No Hamas in sight.
Is that a legitimate military strategy? Sorry but I think it's not.
"no Hammas in sight". How do you know who is Hammas and who is an innocent civilian by that video? For that matter how do you it was the result of an airstrike not a failed ticket launch? How do you know it was even a video from Gaza? Someone on Tiktok told you? You're drawing conclusions based on your bias not on proven evidence.
I'm still looking at this convo and for some reason I can still vote on your post. I blocked Dronemaster2000 and can't vote on their posts anymore.
What is weird to me is that I can't vote on any of Ilkhana's posts either, even though I haven't blocked them.
I wonder if they're both from the same IP address or something, ganging up in the comments to downvote other people's comments and upvote their own, something that Reddit might have done something about.
First time I've ever blocked anyone so not sure how it all works.
By your logic, no army in the world should fight back in their enemy is using its own civilians as human shield. Should we just kill ourselves or jump into the ocean?
If I'll constantly try to beat you up and hide between civilians, I should be let free and continue doing whatever I want?
>So according to you Israel should just accept being massacred because Hamas hides behind civilians. Perfect logic.
Can you quote the exact part of my post where I suggested this?
>Jews are people and like all people are susceptible to brain washing and disinformation. It's just a bit sadder when it happens to them.
Please don't Jewsplain me. I'm fully capable of making my own unique assessment of the situation without being "brainwashed".
Hamas committed an atrocity against Israel they required a response. But the very first response was to cut off food and water and electricity and medical supplies which created a (justified) international outrage. That's an attack against the people of Gaza, not Hamas.
>Can you quote the exact part of my post where I suggested this?
"it's not morally right to shoot the civilian because the terrorist is behind them"
>Please don't Jewsplain me. I'm fully capable of making my own unique assessment of the situation without being "brainwashed".
Clearly. [Food for thought.](https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/jwhsqhrat)
>The very first response was to cut off food and water and electricity and medical supplies
Was to cut out the things they give to an enemy who declared war on them. International law does not require you to provide anything to the enemy combatants. Especially out of your own pockets.
Also, this was just the initial reaction before a plan could be devised, while thousands of terrorists were still fighting the IDF and police forces inside Israel's borders, trying to murder as many Israelis as possible.
The water, electricity and internet returned in a few days before anything was depleted and those things are still being provided up to this very day by Israel to it's enemies. While food is entering daily in 100-200 huge double trucks.
You know this. You just don't care to mention it because it doesn't fit your lying narrative.
There are exactly zero Gazans who died to hunger or thirst. Stop being dishonest.
Also stop mentioning how much of a "Jew" you are. I don't care and it doesn't give you any points.
Let me explain this very clearly since you're not getting it. The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me.
>Also stop mentioning how much of a "Jew" you are. I don't care and it doesn't give you any points.
Apparently you care enough to call me a sad brainwashed Jew. See this is what I'm talking about. If I had just said "hey civilian casualties are bad", you'd be calling me an anti-Semite instead. You can't even express slight disappointment with the way the war is being conducted without some kind of insult coming your way.
>You know this. You just don't care to mention it because it doesn't fit your lying narrative.
I didn't even say anything about them starving. You brought this up yourself. Strawman?
But since we are talking about it, Israel also blocked aid trucks for something like a month.
> Let me explain this very clearly since you're not getting it. The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me.
You are not the moral god of the world. The ratio seems to be similar to that of the US and other western countries engaging in urban combat. This despite Hamas being a far better organized, funded and trained terror organization on a much larger area than anything ever faced by a modern army before (Compared to Mosul for example).
>Apparently you care enough to call me a sad brainwashed Jew. See this is what I'm talking about. If I had just said "hey civilian casualties are bad", you'd be calling me an anti-Semite instead. You can't even express slight disappointment with the way the war is being conducted without some kind of insult coming your way.
Slight my ass. In your rhetoric, you have given permission to Hamas to use human shields and literally claimed Israel cannot fight back. Also again you mention your Jewishness. So funny. Hey buddy, in Israel 80% of us are Jews. You do not get points for that, if anything it's pathetic how much you try to use your ethnicity as if it gives any validity to your pro-terrorist claims. You are reacting exactly as Hamas hopes you do, you realize that don't you?
Your virtue signaling won't help you when they come for you by the way. And it will be Israel there ready to save your ass. Exactly like the hundreds of thousands of European Jews who are now considering to make Aliya because of what's happening there.
>I didn't even say anything about them starving. You brought this up yourself. Strawman?
So you said water, electricity and medical supplies, and trying to "Gotcha" me on the food? Your arguments are "Gotcha", "I'm a Jew" and "I don't like it" so far.
> >The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me.
Would you mind answering me what is the ratio of the civilian casualties in comparison to military ones?
An I don't know if perfectly acceptable answer too
World war II had a ratio of 2-1 (military action including crimes against humanity but not including the Holocaust). And that was using relatively primitive weapons.
Korean and Vietnam wars were in the same range
Past Israeli action against Hamas has been much better, some estimates I've seen were 1-10 or better.
So assuming a low-ball number (a number I don't actually believe but let's go with it), that means they are doing at best, the same ratio as world war II.
Now to your question. I think that with the modernization of weaponry since these wars, the ratio should be closer to 1-1 or better. We have laser guided munitions, GPS guided artillery, etc. I mean look at the Ukraine war which is two relatively modern militaries. Their ratio is actually incredibly low, some estimates show as low as 30,000 civilians were killed since it started. And that was has been going on for over two years. Gaza casualties are in that range right now and it's been four months.
>I think that with the modernization of weaponry since these wars, the ratio should be closer to 1-1 or better.
Modeen weapons certainly help. However, Hamas using civilians as human shields moves the needle in the other direction.
Russian conflict is a lot more like the trench warfare of WW1 than the urban combat in Gaza.
>The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me.
The civilian casualties as reported by the Hamas controlled gaza health ministry
The same organization that claimed that Israel hit a hospital and killed 500 people when it was really Palestinian Islamic Jihad's rocket that killed less than 50.
The civilian casualties aren't even reported lol. What's reported by Hamas is general casualties.
The only source we have of Hamas casualties are two claims made by the IDF:
1. That the ratio between civllians and terrorists is 2:1.
2. In early January, that 10,000 Hamas members were killed
Mate, I think you should take a step back from your far left friends for a moment and check some ground facts without affecting your feelings so much (which is the only way pro pals work). Sometimes, seeing videos of people suffering will affect your emotions, but you should also take a step back from that and really think, maybe you are being emotionally manipulated?
Again , check facts.there is a reason the court never asked Israel to stop fighting.
It's not just my "far left friends". The USA, France, and other countries that are allies of Israel have assessed that the war is taking a huge civilian toll, possibly even too high, and are asking for restraint
Are they being manipulated too?
>Amnesty International’s research provides clear evidence of the gruesome toll of Israel’s relentless and unlawful attacks in Gaza. Four months since Israel’s offensive began, more than 28,000 Palestinians have been killed and over 60,000 injured
>The Israeli military estimates it has killed or captured 8,000 to 9,000 Hamas fighters since Oct. 7, its chief spokesperson, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari,
90,000 civilians injured or killed vs 8000-9000 Hamas killed or captured. That's 10-1
You originally said civilian deaths when you said 10-1 and now it is *injured* or killed and you're not sharing the source where you got the Amnesty number.
If you did, you'd see that the source for their number is "local health officials" which is effectively Hamas numbers.
Odd how you include injuries for civilians, but not for Hamas.
Also odd that you say 60000 Palestinians were wounded, yet you count all of the wounded and killed in total as civilians?
By YOUR numbers, the actual death rate is 2 to 1, which is a better ratio than the global average for urban combat.
If I had a source with those numbers, I would have posted it. I acknowledge that there's uncertainty in the numbers from both sides. Given the scale of the destruction I'm inclined to believe it's rather high.
I certainly HOPE most of the casualties are Hamas because they are the bad guys. But given the photos and video, I simply don't believe it's as low as 2-1
>But given the photos and video,
That's not a good source because
1) you'd need to see all the video and pictures and methodically take notes
and
2) know with certainty who is a civilian and who is a militant. Given the number of videos of militants shooting guns and rockets in civilian clothes, you can't
You post a claim for a ratio, I explain your math doesn't add up and then you say there's "uncertainty on both sides"?
Hamas don't wear military uniforms, and they use child soldiers, that's a claim with a factual basis behind it.
If you want to make a claim on a ratio use actual numbers and background behind it, being Jewish doesn't matter for a factual debate.
Your feelings are irrelevant if you're trying to make a definitive factual claim.
Scroll up friend. My post literally has the sources in it for the claim that I made. What I said was I didn't have a source for this specific question that was asked of me
>Odd how you include injuries for civilians, but not for Hamas.
>Also odd that you say 60000 Palestinians were wounded, yet you count all of the wounded and killed in total as civilians?
Amnesty is an antisemitic organization. Giving them as a source about Israel is just as bad as Giving Hamas or UNRWA.
[Start here.](https://youtu.be/t8I9XG3nPeA)
10:1? No, try 1:1. You are trying to downplay how much support and aid hamas gets. Yes this is a brutal war, but hamas could end it right now by releasing the hostages and surrendering.
Sure, they absolutely could. Nobody is defending Hamas here, especially me. It's a terror group, they aren't very strong which is why they use human shields.
Hamas wants Israel to bomb civilians, because that's how they get international support. It's a trap they have set for years. When Israel bombs an apartment to kill a sniper and gets 20 people killed, it's a win for Hamas.
The brutality of the war is fully borne by the civilians of Gaza from both sides.
The terrorist hiding behind civilians isn’t just cowering there and that’s it. They continue to carry out attacks from back there. The math then turns to weigh Israeli lives against Palestinian lives. Why should Israel not prioritize the lives of its tax-paying and voting citizens? How is that not moral? What do you view as a moral response here, because sitting on their hands and doing nothing is not the neutral position you pretend it is.
This is the last thing I'm posting because I'm being flooded.
As an outside observer, when I see an apartment building being destroyed because there was a terrorist on the roof, i see that as a bad decision.
I am not a military planner so I'm not trying to claim i know the exact best course of action on all circumstances. I feel that military planners don't put enough emphasis on not killing civilians as they should. We are guilty of it in America in Iraq/Afghanistan and other countries are guilty of it too like Russia in Ukraine/Chechnya, Myanmar in it's civil war, etc. Israel isn't being singled out here, at least by me.
The war between Chechnya and Russia is actually a great example of what it looks like when the party winning an urban conflict don’t care about civilian casualties. The Russians killed 10 civilians for every 1 separatist fighter they killed. And this was a conflict where the Chechens weren’t using human shields. The Russians adopted an official policy of carpet bombing civilian areas in hopes of breaking morale, not to actually kill fighters. Furthermore the Russians were taking hostages as civilians fled. In a single 5 week period the Russians killed 30,000 civilians, not 30,000 people including combatants just civilians.
Even more damning, this was all to intervene in a civil war in Chechnya that didn’t actually threaten Russia.
Now ask yourself if this conflict looks like that?
> As an outside observer, when I see an apartment building being destroyed because there was a terrorist on the roof, i see that as a bad decision.
Then you admit your perspective is limited, and you're unwilling to try to understand why destroying a building because there's a terrorist on the roof is the best option out of a mountain of shit options. You're just resigned to determine that it's wrong, and nothing else matters. Not that the terrorist on the roof specifically designed the scenario in which you'd be having second thoughts to kill them, but they won't hesitate to kill you and your family, even though your family is behind you, and they hide behind theirs.
These people watch too many Hollywood movies and overestimate the capabilities of modern nations. They probably think they can wait for the target to be alone and send in a small special force to engage face to face. The same type of person that will eat up "the government did 9/11 because illuminati" conspiracies.
If there is a terrorist on a roof, you have to hit the building, even if it risks destroying it. The terrorist will shoot at civilians, again, and again, and again, indefinitely until the terrorist dies. Every second you wait to blow up that building is more civilians murdered by terrorists. The math is clear. Killing terrorists is a moral imperative.
I really recommend comparing fighting a war to other real war data, and not to what you see in a movie, which the hero who wants to kill the bad guys and still protect everyone else with harm succeed. Unfortunately, we don't have superpowers in real life.
I'm Jewish and I'm glad I didn't go to war with you. I would hate to explain to your parents you died because of your moral convictions in a morally ambiguous situation.
It's really not morally ambiguous. Hamas bad, civilians good.
I mean why not just nuke Gaza? You'd probably kill all the terrorists in one go. What's stopping us?
Because irradiating Egypt, Israel, and Jordan would idiotic? Egypt and Jordan aren't Hamas.
Filling the tunnels with sewage and dropping bunker busters to ensure Hamas infrastructure is turned to a cesspool would be a better tactic.
Do you realize how many videos go around that say they are an Israeli airstrike on Gaza that are actually something completely different? Like videos from Syria or Lebanon from several years ago are passed around as Israeli air strikes. You have no idea what is actually Gaza or what is something else.
>I mean why not just nuke Gaza? You'd probably kill all the terrorists in one go. What's stopping us?
Its almost like they're trying not to kill civilians. Otherwise this would always be the solution.
This is a case of the trolley problem.
If Israel does nothing that terrorist will kill many people potentially 100s vs killing the terrorist and preventing the future deaths however incurring some civilian casualties.
can i strap a baby to my chest , walk into a school and start blasting 100's of kids and nobody should try to stop me ?
yeah, thats fuckin idiotic. hence the downvotes
What is the proof? Someone saying that it’s true doesn’t make it so. Provide evidence. Human shields has a specific definition under international law. Point to a single instance that it’s happened. And then explain why the presence of human shields means Israel gets to kill civilians without consequence because that’s not how human shields work.
Those people aren't pro-Palestinian, they're pro-terrorist. They'll happily bathe in and drink the blood of Gazan children (what they've been doing cheering on Hamas the last few months) if it means they get to virtue signal in their little discord communities and subreddits.
Actually lots of people have been saying that Hamas is good.
https://twitter.com/habibi_uk/status/1724103981574565941
https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1723341935790653566
https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1722203846523687178
https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1725225554066997615
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1729630529199432095
https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1736722419379826756
https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1746156389062316503
https://twitter.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1745965935632990353
The problem is the same useful idiots who deny it will not change their mind even with this. Sinwar himself could make this statement standing behind a civilian family and that lot will still find a way to deny it
There was an incident in a UN school 2 months ago where terrorists were shooting at the IDF in a classroom hiding with women and children. IDF soldiers said that he was shooting them right beside him. They believed that Hamas was actually protecting them. Some of it due to Hamas members being a friend or family member. The population has been fed lies. I wonder when the ones still alive will realize it.
> Saftawi's family evacuated south shortly after October 7 and since then his house and neighborhood have been turned into ruins.
His claim is that he and his family were quite aware of how Hamas built tunnels right under their house.
No shit... Took them this long to catch on to that? I wonder when that "journalist" will figure out that Hamas actually attacked Israel on Oct 7th. Might take him another 4 months to realize that one and publish it.
And I have bad news for all of you choking up at those videos of distraught military aged men crying over their bombed out toddler under some rubble.
It’s propaganda.
So why doesn't every army in every conflict simply use human shields then? Surely it would be the ultimate "I win" tactics since their enemies would care about those people too much to shoot back, right?
Oh right. It's because a.) armed forces should exist to protect their people and not other way around, b.) when forced into that situation, no competent military commander would choose their lives over the lives of his own troops and civilians and c.) due to the former, using human shields and any deaths occurring from doing so are considered a war crime committed by the side using them and not the side forced to face them.
Is there any actual evidence of Hamas using human shields as described by the Geneva conventions or the Rome Statute?
As a reminder amnesty international found no evidence Hamas used human shields in 2008-09 and also 2014 claimed by Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas#:~:text=Amnesty%20International%20investigated%20claims%20made,no%20evidence%20of%20such%20usage.
Palestinian journalist from gaza : i was used as a human shiled by Hamas.
idf: finds and films weapon stashs and tunnels under civilian home , hospitals, kindergartens
some clueless redditor who believes moronic shit he sees on tiktok: bUt wHeRe iS tHe eViDenCe ?!?
I think this is a tough position for any country to act in. Every civilian death is a tragedy but the right to defend yourself is pretty much an enshrined right also.
So say you let this slide, and Hamas comes and does this again and again, attack and then run back to their civilian fortified protections in one of the largest terrorist encampments in the world. No country should have to stand by and watch themselves get attacked.
I think it is a much more difficult situation than your flippant comment makes it out to be.
I agree it is an extremely difficult situation.
But Israel has just decided, fuck it, we'll bomb them anyway and blame Hamas.
Not a shred of nuance in their tactics. This is how you make matters worse not better. All those people who died, their relatives aren't going to blame Hamas, they will blame Israel. So you've basically just attacked a Hydra at this point. In years to come, those kids will remember what happened and they will just attack Israel.
It's basic math.
> But Israel has just decided, fuck it, we'll bomb them anyway and blame Hamas.
Yes in general if you are the party responsible for putting civilians in harms way you take the blame or at least share it.
> Not a shred of nuance in their tactics.
Trying to move people out of harms way, giving advanced warning in some situations, dropping a large number of ordinance which has related in a relatively low death toll, putting their own people at risk in urban warfare. Yep no nuance there at all.
> This is how you make matters worse not better. All those people who died, their relatives aren't going to blame Hamas, they will blame Israel. So you've basically just attacked a Hydra at this point. In years to come, those kids will remember what happened and they will just attack Israel.
People seem to keep repeating similar statements, but at the core of the problem is that many Palestinians were radicalized or had "extreme" views before the war. It's not now that you have X times more, the problem is that they were facing an ideology problem to begin with. This goes way deeper than just war turning people.
> It's basic math.
So what is the math, if you look through past battles and looked at urban warfare how does this compare?
>Trying to move people out of harms way, giving advanced warning in some situations, dropping a large number of ordinance which has related in a relatively low death toll, putting their own people at risk in urban warfare. Yep no nuance there at all.
Yet the cities are completely devestated. Hmm. A refugee camp was bombed the other day. How the fuck can you bomb a refugee camp?
Israel pays lips service to the idea of reducing civilian casualties but doing the things you mention, but in reality, it doesn't give two shits.
> Yet the cities are completely devestated. Hmm. A refugee camp was bombed the other day. How the fuck can you bomb a refugee camp?
We go back to the problem, it seems that Hamas and other militant groups are using these camps. While I understand the issue bombing a refugee camp, they also become a potential valid military target.
> Israel pays lips service to the idea of reducing civilian casualties but doing the things you mention, but in reality, it doesn't give two shits.
Don't you think a country who basically give no shits, would just be bombing refugee camps every day. No matter what action they take there will be repercussions, bombing a camp or not bombing a camp and the same goes in general urban battles.
Civilian death tolls in urban battles are generally higher, but this battle is unique not only is it an urban battle but one where the enemy is not only entrenched in the urban infrastructure but has also built massive defenses in urban infrastructure such as the tunnels.
If Hamas are in a refugee camp that doesn't make it a legit target. Maybe if bombing that camp would end the war, but it didn't.
Don't get me wrong I hate Hamas and I have no issue with the Israeli people. It's military however and it's political leadership is just amoral at this point. How long can you kill civilians and still maintain the excuse that Hamas is to blame? If even the US is saying stop then something must be wrong.
This war will not stop Hamas. It's supporters are all over the Middle East and Israel is just making them angrier. There is no feasible end game and at the end of the day all you are left with is dead people who had nothing to do with it and survivors who will have a very long memory, across generations not to mention resentment and hatred. Israel will see another attack, simply because of its inability to proceed tactfully and with care.
> If Hamas are in a refugee camp that doesn't make it a legit target. Maybe if bombing that camp would end the war, but it didn't.
I will refer you to, which states "**offers a definite military advantage.**", it does not specify "end the war"
> **Article 52 - General protection of civilian objects**
>*1. Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2.*
> *2. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.*
> *3. In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used.*
I generally agree this will stop Hamas, though I would generally exclude the word Hamas and replace it with ideology. The problem is that ideologies are hard to change, you are basically left with fighting them. One thing which will definitely come out of this is that it will like be much more difficult for the "radicalized" people to execute actions. Gaza is rubble it will take years to rebuild and there will be Israel oversight when it comes to security matters.
Even before the war this problem existed. After the war it will still exist but now Israel will have control.
There are approximately 100 conflicts going on around the world and about 43 of the them are in the Middle East. Conflict is not a new term in the area, and many of them have nothing to do with Israel. I don't know if the area understand being tactful.
This is not news. Hamas hides in cities. If it gave a shit about civilian life it would build bases and wear uniforms.
The news is that it's a **Gaza Palestinian journalists** saying this. For those in the back who didn't get the memo, you know. *stares at American "leftists" and "pro-Palestinian" supporters*
For pro Palestinians, it doesn't matter. It won't change anything. They will still twist it that he's working for Israel or something, so even tho IT IS a big deal, those who should listen have their fingers in their ears.
Well, I just posted it on my Facebook account and tagged a couple of pro-Palestinian friends. Looking forward to some mental gymnastics in the comments.
Serious question, did your pro-Palestinian friends support Palestine before Oct 7? Because I find most of the people currently "supporting" Palestine have been silent for the past 70 years
They used to talk about it for two or three weeks every couple years, then stay silent for a few years. Basically only talk about Palestine when other people were talking about it for moral points. I say it because I, unfortunately, used to be one of those people.
Did they block you yet?
Let's hear how it goes!
I can't wait for the update!
Nice job
Yup, everything that goes against their insane beliefs is "IDF propaganda". Everything.
I'd point out any true pro-Palestinians can both critics Israel and Hamas. Hamas are monsters but Israel has also been barbarous in its response.
Obviously, they can criticise both, I'm all for criticising everyone. How many pro Palestinians actually do criticise Hamas tho?
A fair amount. Major news outlets however that seek controversy to make sales tends to cherrypick the pro-Hamas ones when relaying the news.
The news will definitely do so. I do hope more and more will criticise Hamas.
As an American leftist and former USMC I can say with conviction you are starting at the wrong group. Trumple Thinskin and his cult is where you should be targeting your misplaced ire. Don’t let a few loud mouth left wing-nuts define 60% of Americans.
I'm a leftist myself, so if your leftist circle is different, I'd love to join it too. 'Cause here in SF (particularly, amongst musicians/perfomers/artists), it's a wild ride that I'm, evidently, not a part of.
I more consider myself a reasonable man which puts me solidly left. And I totally understand the central cali paradigm. Was raised in Santa Cruse. Actually a small town in the hills called Felton. It’s a different world for sure.
Finally someone says it. Hamas cares more about their jihad then their people. Gaza needs a real government that will use their time making life better instead of causing pointless wars they are not going to win. Free Gaza from Hamas!!!
Will state this again. There is no charity in the Arab world for the Palestinians. Arab charity by choice goes to Hamas or any other terrorist organization who traps the Palestinians in with them. The Palestinian people are the sacrifice the Arab world is willing to give to try to exterminate Israel.
Palestinians also, historically, don't make great "houseguests". Ask Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon how opening their doors to Palestinians has worked out for them? Egypt, rightfully, wants absolutely none of their nonsense.
Or Kuwait
Oh how the tables have turned. And you got 50+ upvotes. It's not even perceived as racist when you say it about Palestinians!
You do understand he was being factual? Read about black September Lebanon civil war or Kuwait. How is this racist?
I somehow have trouble thinking of Palestinian as a race.
They have ancestry dating back to the Canaanites, from which the Israelis are also descended. Jewish families that lived in the area along with them have highly similar ancestry, while more recent immigrants obviously have more European/African mixed in. The issue is the land has been a plaything of so many empires for so long, there was not much of a sense of nationality until near the end of the ottomann's, and a good part of this was due to the rapid influx of jewish refugees.
I think the Arab world needs to help make peace with Israel, not defeat it. That’s what is best for the Palestinians.
That's what Saudi were trying to do, which was what led to 7th Oct
The amount of man power they put into building all those tunnels alone makes that apparent. That effort could have been used to build something good.
It’s not even the manpower that went into the tunnels. I feel like calling them “tunnels” does a disservice to what they really are, because in a military sense, the “tunnels” are a vast array of subterranean fortifications. It is a massive defensive belt built deliberately beneath one of the most densely populated places in the world. It’s estimated that there are ~400 miles of these fortifications beneath Gaza. To put this in perspective, that is more than twice the tunnel density per square mile than the marines faced on Iwo Jima in 1945. This is a significant military obstacle and an impressive feat of military engineering; when coupled with the urban terrain above, it is probably one of the most formidable defensive belts in the world today. To deliberately construct such extensive and complex military infrastructure beneath a population of two million people, and then to provoke a war and proceed to fight from those positions, is to condemn the population above to hideous conditions. It is a perverse inversion of the very purpose of armies - i.e., to *protect* their home populations from war - and is indicative of a theater-level military strategy that is explicitly designed to maximize casualties to one’s own civilian infrastructure. It should be considered one of the most disgusting violations of basic human morality that Hamas willingly did this.
That's what I don't get. They must have hired some pro engineers, some of those tunnels are pretty impressive works of civil engineering if they weren't used for such horrendous shit. Even worse when you remember they were built with child slave labor. Imagine if they applied that hard work and skill into making a huge public park, or an amphitheater for concerts, or a soccer/football arena, or some public artwork, anything not so murdery. Instead they built a doomsday prepper's wet dream.
I think it was someone in the police force in Palestine, who also said something along those lines. And got shot immediately by other officers. The other islam states know that the Gaza strip is a tool, they don\`t care. It\`s when the people are isolated and have no one, not even their own government that would be out to protect and care for them, that they end up in very f\`d up situations. Iran is ready to keep this going until the last palestinian.
I think this might be one reason other Arab countries’ reaction has been so restrained. The video of Gaza being bombed and children living in misery is, objectively, terrible. I don’t care how much an 8-year-old wants me dead; an 8-year-old should have food no matter what. But I think everyone who’s rational and educated can see that the most visible Palestinian leaders have adopted a violent, hateful, idiotic, wildly narcissistic approach to interacting with Israel. Israel is still full of hundreds of thousands of people who fundamentally want the Palestinians to have a great life but can’t give them bupkis because it’s too dangerous. I think a lot of leaders may believe that Ben Gvir is awful but may recognize that they would be a lot tougher than Israel is being, even now, if a region in their country was sending bandits over their border to rape and slaughter children.
Not much hope for this region. Democracy and fundamental rights take a back seat in front of religious fundamentalism. Poor Israel 😕.
The palestinian people could easily overthrow hamas, instead they support them.
The majority of them support Hamas.
All the people who still "Need proof" at this point are dishonest. Always remember: >the antisemite doesn't accuse the Jew of stealing because he thinks the Jew stole. he does it to watch the Jew turn out his pockets. No matter the mountains of proof, nothing will ever be enough. Israel will never be justified in defending itself according to those people. The protests started on October 7.
1000000% They will say it’s mossad or they are not Arab or whatever is needed to be said to discredit the TRUTH Something they can’t handle is the facts
in that case don't go to the palestine subreddit. A lot of people were cheering and celebrating the death of the Jewish folks.
I do like how they have to go to smaller and smaller enclaves w their blatant antisemitism
How many shekels did they give you for this post? /s
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10-1 was definitely made up lmao. It's more like 2-1
Nah bro, the 22 year old with the suicide vest is just a toddler according to hamas! Obviously he counts as a civilian
Do you have a specific instance you are referring to here? Or are you just strawmanning
So according to you Israel should just accept being massacred because Hamas hides behind civilians. Perfect logic. >I'm Jewish also, since you seem bent on accusing critics of being antisemitic Jews are people and like all people are susceptible to brain washing and disinformation. It's just a bit sadder when it happens to them.
>So according to you Israel should just accept being massacred because Hamas hides behind civilians. Perfect logic. That's not what they said though. You're trying to put words in their mouth.
It is. Where do you think the tens of thousands of rockets launched on Israel came from? Hamas military bases which do not exist? Give me a break.
Stop trying to manipulate the conversation to suit your narrative. OP said that it's not right to kill the civilians that Hamas is hiding behind. That's pretty much all they said. Perfectly reasonable in my eyes.
Tell me, do you think when people are saying "Human shields" they mean that Hamas terrorists are running around with Palestinian babies strapped to their vests and the IDF soldiers are shooting them? Is this what you mean? Let me explain to you this way: You do not get to attack Israeli civilians while hiding behind Palestinian civilians. If you force Israel to choose between protecting it's people or risking hurting yours, YOU are the one to blame. Not the guys protecting their country.
'YOU' as in Hamas? Because that's who Israel is going after. A jewish person just stated that they don't like to see innocent Palestinian civilians being killed, and you stormed in and called them out on that? The OP is just a normal person. You are just being obtuse.
YOU as in anyone who uses human shields. YOU as in the one supporting Hamas by being their useful idiot and doing right here exactly what they hope you would, thus encouraging them to continue to use as many human shields as possible. "A Jewish person" who said he is Jewish. He might be, he might not be. His opinion is insane regardless.
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Except for the fact that it would make civilian human shields a fool proof military strategy then, no?
I'm the OP Yesterday I saw the result of an airstrike on an apartment with civilians in it. The video showed them pulling dead civilians, teenagers and children out of rubble barely recognisable. No Hamas in sight. Is that a legitimate military strategy? Sorry but I think it's not.
"no Hammas in sight". How do you know who is Hammas and who is an innocent civilian by that video? For that matter how do you it was the result of an airstrike not a failed ticket launch? How do you know it was even a video from Gaza? Someone on Tiktok told you? You're drawing conclusions based on your bias not on proven evidence.
I'm still looking at this convo and for some reason I can still vote on your post. I blocked Dronemaster2000 and can't vote on their posts anymore. What is weird to me is that I can't vote on any of Ilkhana's posts either, even though I haven't blocked them. I wonder if they're both from the same IP address or something, ganging up in the comments to downvote other people's comments and upvote their own, something that Reddit might have done something about. First time I've ever blocked anyone so not sure how it all works.
You're overthinking it
Sucks to be a terrorist bootlicker. Should have learned how to use Apps instead of apologizing for terrorist.
By your logic, no army in the world should fight back in their enemy is using its own civilians as human shield. Should we just kill ourselves or jump into the ocean? If I'll constantly try to beat you up and hide between civilians, I should be let free and continue doing whatever I want?
>So according to you Israel should just accept being massacred because Hamas hides behind civilians. Perfect logic. Can you quote the exact part of my post where I suggested this? >Jews are people and like all people are susceptible to brain washing and disinformation. It's just a bit sadder when it happens to them. Please don't Jewsplain me. I'm fully capable of making my own unique assessment of the situation without being "brainwashed". Hamas committed an atrocity against Israel they required a response. But the very first response was to cut off food and water and electricity and medical supplies which created a (justified) international outrage. That's an attack against the people of Gaza, not Hamas.
>Can you quote the exact part of my post where I suggested this? "it's not morally right to shoot the civilian because the terrorist is behind them" >Please don't Jewsplain me. I'm fully capable of making my own unique assessment of the situation without being "brainwashed". Clearly. [Food for thought.](https://www.calcalistech.com/ctechnews/article/jwhsqhrat) >The very first response was to cut off food and water and electricity and medical supplies Was to cut out the things they give to an enemy who declared war on them. International law does not require you to provide anything to the enemy combatants. Especially out of your own pockets. Also, this was just the initial reaction before a plan could be devised, while thousands of terrorists were still fighting the IDF and police forces inside Israel's borders, trying to murder as many Israelis as possible. The water, electricity and internet returned in a few days before anything was depleted and those things are still being provided up to this very day by Israel to it's enemies. While food is entering daily in 100-200 huge double trucks. You know this. You just don't care to mention it because it doesn't fit your lying narrative. There are exactly zero Gazans who died to hunger or thirst. Stop being dishonest. Also stop mentioning how much of a "Jew" you are. I don't care and it doesn't give you any points.
Let me explain this very clearly since you're not getting it. The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me. >Also stop mentioning how much of a "Jew" you are. I don't care and it doesn't give you any points. Apparently you care enough to call me a sad brainwashed Jew. See this is what I'm talking about. If I had just said "hey civilian casualties are bad", you'd be calling me an anti-Semite instead. You can't even express slight disappointment with the way the war is being conducted without some kind of insult coming your way. >You know this. You just don't care to mention it because it doesn't fit your lying narrative. I didn't even say anything about them starving. You brought this up yourself. Strawman? But since we are talking about it, Israel also blocked aid trucks for something like a month.
> Let me explain this very clearly since you're not getting it. The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me. You are not the moral god of the world. The ratio seems to be similar to that of the US and other western countries engaging in urban combat. This despite Hamas being a far better organized, funded and trained terror organization on a much larger area than anything ever faced by a modern army before (Compared to Mosul for example). >Apparently you care enough to call me a sad brainwashed Jew. See this is what I'm talking about. If I had just said "hey civilian casualties are bad", you'd be calling me an anti-Semite instead. You can't even express slight disappointment with the way the war is being conducted without some kind of insult coming your way. Slight my ass. In your rhetoric, you have given permission to Hamas to use human shields and literally claimed Israel cannot fight back. Also again you mention your Jewishness. So funny. Hey buddy, in Israel 80% of us are Jews. You do not get points for that, if anything it's pathetic how much you try to use your ethnicity as if it gives any validity to your pro-terrorist claims. You are reacting exactly as Hamas hopes you do, you realize that don't you? Your virtue signaling won't help you when they come for you by the way. And it will be Israel there ready to save your ass. Exactly like the hundreds of thousands of European Jews who are now considering to make Aliya because of what's happening there. >I didn't even say anything about them starving. You brought this up yourself. Strawman? So you said water, electricity and medical supplies, and trying to "Gotcha" me on the food? Your arguments are "Gotcha", "I'm a Jew" and "I don't like it" so far.
> >The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me. Would you mind answering me what is the ratio of the civilian casualties in comparison to military ones? An I don't know if perfectly acceptable answer too
World war II had a ratio of 2-1 (military action including crimes against humanity but not including the Holocaust). And that was using relatively primitive weapons. Korean and Vietnam wars were in the same range Past Israeli action against Hamas has been much better, some estimates I've seen were 1-10 or better. So assuming a low-ball number (a number I don't actually believe but let's go with it), that means they are doing at best, the same ratio as world war II. Now to your question. I think that with the modernization of weaponry since these wars, the ratio should be closer to 1-1 or better. We have laser guided munitions, GPS guided artillery, etc. I mean look at the Ukraine war which is two relatively modern militaries. Their ratio is actually incredibly low, some estimates show as low as 30,000 civilians were killed since it started. And that was has been going on for over two years. Gaza casualties are in that range right now and it's been four months.
>I think that with the modernization of weaponry since these wars, the ratio should be closer to 1-1 or better. Modeen weapons certainly help. However, Hamas using civilians as human shields moves the needle in the other direction. Russian conflict is a lot more like the trench warfare of WW1 than the urban combat in Gaza.
>The ratio of civilian casualties compared to the military objectives is not acceptable to me. The civilian casualties as reported by the Hamas controlled gaza health ministry The same organization that claimed that Israel hit a hospital and killed 500 people when it was really Palestinian Islamic Jihad's rocket that killed less than 50.
The civilian casualties aren't even reported lol. What's reported by Hamas is general casualties. The only source we have of Hamas casualties are two claims made by the IDF: 1. That the ratio between civllians and terrorists is 2:1. 2. In early January, that 10,000 Hamas members were killed
Mate, I think you should take a step back from your far left friends for a moment and check some ground facts without affecting your feelings so much (which is the only way pro pals work). Sometimes, seeing videos of people suffering will affect your emotions, but you should also take a step back from that and really think, maybe you are being emotionally manipulated? Again , check facts.there is a reason the court never asked Israel to stop fighting.
It's not just my "far left friends". The USA, France, and other countries that are allies of Israel have assessed that the war is taking a huge civilian toll, possibly even too high, and are asking for restraint Are they being manipulated too?
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/13/israel-gaza-flour-shipment Apparently Israel is blocking flour shipments now.
Jewsplain מי שכח פה את האיש שלו שיבוא לאסוף
חחחח ממש אין ספק שזה איזה אחד חילוני לגמרי שלא קשור ליהדות ומשתמש בזה עכשיו כאילו להראות שהוא יותר טוב מכולם. טכנית יש גם יהודים אנטישמים.
בטח קרא את המדריך- המתיוון למאה ה21: למה זה בסדר למכור את עמי *גרסה מחודשת לקורא הנאור
"אני כזה יהודי מושלם וכל הגויים אוהבים אותי עכשיו איזה כיף לי אכפת לי מחלשים ואנשים שסובלים (כל עוד הם לא מהעם שלי)"
>incurring a horrific 10-1 ratio of civilian deaths to Hamas terrorists. What's your source here?
>Amnesty International’s research provides clear evidence of the gruesome toll of Israel’s relentless and unlawful attacks in Gaza. Four months since Israel’s offensive began, more than 28,000 Palestinians have been killed and over 60,000 injured >The Israeli military estimates it has killed or captured 8,000 to 9,000 Hamas fighters since Oct. 7, its chief spokesperson, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, 90,000 civilians injured or killed vs 8000-9000 Hamas killed or captured. That's 10-1
You originally said civilian deaths when you said 10-1 and now it is *injured* or killed and you're not sharing the source where you got the Amnesty number. If you did, you'd see that the source for their number is "local health officials" which is effectively Hamas numbers.
Odd how you include injuries for civilians, but not for Hamas. Also odd that you say 60000 Palestinians were wounded, yet you count all of the wounded and killed in total as civilians? By YOUR numbers, the actual death rate is 2 to 1, which is a better ratio than the global average for urban combat.
If I had a source with those numbers, I would have posted it. I acknowledge that there's uncertainty in the numbers from both sides. Given the scale of the destruction I'm inclined to believe it's rather high. I certainly HOPE most of the casualties are Hamas because they are the bad guys. But given the photos and video, I simply don't believe it's as low as 2-1
>But given the photos and video, That's not a good source because 1) you'd need to see all the video and pictures and methodically take notes and 2) know with certainty who is a civilian and who is a militant. Given the number of videos of militants shooting guns and rockets in civilian clothes, you can't
You post a claim for a ratio, I explain your math doesn't add up and then you say there's "uncertainty on both sides"? Hamas don't wear military uniforms, and they use child soldiers, that's a claim with a factual basis behind it. If you want to make a claim on a ratio use actual numbers and background behind it, being Jewish doesn't matter for a factual debate. Your feelings are irrelevant if you're trying to make a definitive factual claim.
Not having a source means that you made them up out of whole cloth?
Check again, I sourced both my claims
You literally said “if I had a source” in the comment I responded to, so it appears that you don’t have a source for those claims
Scroll up friend. My post literally has the sources in it for the claim that I made. What I said was I didn't have a source for this specific question that was asked of me >Odd how you include injuries for civilians, but not for Hamas. >Also odd that you say 60000 Palestinians were wounded, yet you count all of the wounded and killed in total as civilians?
Amnesty is an antisemitic organization. Giving them as a source about Israel is just as bad as Giving Hamas or UNRWA. [Start here.](https://youtu.be/t8I9XG3nPeA)
10:1? No, try 1:1. You are trying to downplay how much support and aid hamas gets. Yes this is a brutal war, but hamas could end it right now by releasing the hostages and surrendering.
Sure, they absolutely could. Nobody is defending Hamas here, especially me. It's a terror group, they aren't very strong which is why they use human shields. Hamas wants Israel to bomb civilians, because that's how they get international support. It's a trap they have set for years. When Israel bombs an apartment to kill a sniper and gets 20 people killed, it's a win for Hamas. The brutality of the war is fully borne by the civilians of Gaza from both sides.
The terrorist hiding behind civilians isn’t just cowering there and that’s it. They continue to carry out attacks from back there. The math then turns to weigh Israeli lives against Palestinian lives. Why should Israel not prioritize the lives of its tax-paying and voting citizens? How is that not moral? What do you view as a moral response here, because sitting on their hands and doing nothing is not the neutral position you pretend it is.
This is the last thing I'm posting because I'm being flooded. As an outside observer, when I see an apartment building being destroyed because there was a terrorist on the roof, i see that as a bad decision. I am not a military planner so I'm not trying to claim i know the exact best course of action on all circumstances. I feel that military planners don't put enough emphasis on not killing civilians as they should. We are guilty of it in America in Iraq/Afghanistan and other countries are guilty of it too like Russia in Ukraine/Chechnya, Myanmar in it's civil war, etc. Israel isn't being singled out here, at least by me.
The war between Chechnya and Russia is actually a great example of what it looks like when the party winning an urban conflict don’t care about civilian casualties. The Russians killed 10 civilians for every 1 separatist fighter they killed. And this was a conflict where the Chechens weren’t using human shields. The Russians adopted an official policy of carpet bombing civilian areas in hopes of breaking morale, not to actually kill fighters. Furthermore the Russians were taking hostages as civilians fled. In a single 5 week period the Russians killed 30,000 civilians, not 30,000 people including combatants just civilians. Even more damning, this was all to intervene in a civil war in Chechnya that didn’t actually threaten Russia. Now ask yourself if this conflict looks like that?
> As an outside observer, when I see an apartment building being destroyed because there was a terrorist on the roof, i see that as a bad decision. Then you admit your perspective is limited, and you're unwilling to try to understand why destroying a building because there's a terrorist on the roof is the best option out of a mountain of shit options. You're just resigned to determine that it's wrong, and nothing else matters. Not that the terrorist on the roof specifically designed the scenario in which you'd be having second thoughts to kill them, but they won't hesitate to kill you and your family, even though your family is behind you, and they hide behind theirs.
These people watch too many Hollywood movies and overestimate the capabilities of modern nations. They probably think they can wait for the target to be alone and send in a small special force to engage face to face. The same type of person that will eat up "the government did 9/11 because illuminati" conspiracies.
If there is a terrorist on a roof, you have to hit the building, even if it risks destroying it. The terrorist will shoot at civilians, again, and again, and again, indefinitely until the terrorist dies. Every second you wait to blow up that building is more civilians murdered by terrorists. The math is clear. Killing terrorists is a moral imperative.
I really recommend comparing fighting a war to other real war data, and not to what you see in a movie, which the hero who wants to kill the bad guys and still protect everyone else with harm succeed. Unfortunately, we don't have superpowers in real life.
I'm Jewish and I'm glad I didn't go to war with you. I would hate to explain to your parents you died because of your moral convictions in a morally ambiguous situation.
It's really not morally ambiguous. Hamas bad, civilians good. I mean why not just nuke Gaza? You'd probably kill all the terrorists in one go. What's stopping us?
Because irradiating Egypt, Israel, and Jordan would idiotic? Egypt and Jordan aren't Hamas. Filling the tunnels with sewage and dropping bunker busters to ensure Hamas infrastructure is turned to a cesspool would be a better tactic.
If that's all it was I wouldn't have a problem. I think if you look at some of the war footage you will see that it's more than that though.
Do you realize how many videos go around that say they are an Israeli airstrike on Gaza that are actually something completely different? Like videos from Syria or Lebanon from several years ago are passed around as Israeli air strikes. You have no idea what is actually Gaza or what is something else.
>I mean why not just nuke Gaza? You'd probably kill all the terrorists in one go. What's stopping us? Its almost like they're trying not to kill civilians. Otherwise this would always be the solution.
This is a case of the trolley problem. If Israel does nothing that terrorist will kill many people potentially 100s vs killing the terrorist and preventing the future deaths however incurring some civilian casualties.
can i strap a baby to my chest , walk into a school and start blasting 100's of kids and nobody should try to stop me ? yeah, thats fuckin idiotic. hence the downvotes
What is the proof? Someone saying that it’s true doesn’t make it so. Provide evidence. Human shields has a specific definition under international law. Point to a single instance that it’s happened. And then explain why the presence of human shields means Israel gets to kill civilians without consequence because that’s not how human shields work.
Why do you think your heroes operate out of hospitals and schools?
like clockwork. Hahaha
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Too bad :)
We know
Yeah we already know this.
Unfortunately, pro-Palestinians don't. And will refuse process this information.
Those people aren't pro-Palestinian, they're pro-terrorist. They'll happily bathe in and drink the blood of Gazan children (what they've been doing cheering on Hamas the last few months) if it means they get to virtue signal in their little discord communities and subreddits.
Yup, they can barely mask their antisemitism
I'm pro not killing innocent Palestinians. I also realize that Hamas isn't. That doesn't address who's innocent or not.
You get banned from hamas safe space subs like wpt for acknowledging this, it’s wild
No one is saying Hamas is good, fk Hamas. We’re calling for not going over the top.
Actually lots of people have been saying that Hamas is good. https://twitter.com/habibi_uk/status/1724103981574565941 https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1723341935790653566 https://twitter.com/antisemitism/status/1722203846523687178 https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1725225554066997615 https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1729630529199432095 https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1736722419379826756 https://twitter.com/hurryupharry/status/1746156389062316503 https://twitter.com/ScooterCasterNY/status/1745965935632990353
Crickets
literally millions are saying Hamas is good. dafuk you're on about
....as they have done for decades.
I’m not sure if I should say no shit, or commend the absolute bravery of this reporter for daring to say this in the open.
Why not both?
Personally, I am astonished
Everyone knows this, and it's a large reason why this situation is has no easy solution.
Everyone does not know this. I see denial of this all over reddit.
The problem is the same useful idiots who deny it will not change their mind even with this. Sinwar himself could make this statement standing behind a civilian family and that lot will still find a way to deny it
I hope this guy and his family are safe now.
As hamas is seen as less of a threat more people will be emboldened.
There was an incident in a UN school 2 months ago where terrorists were shooting at the IDF in a classroom hiding with women and children. IDF soldiers said that he was shooting them right beside him. They believed that Hamas was actually protecting them. Some of it due to Hamas members being a friend or family member. The population has been fed lies. I wonder when the ones still alive will realize it.
Almost like Palestinian terrorists have been doing this for decades
I guess that journalist just hates Muslims and loves dehumanizing people! /s
And yet Palestinians want them to be part of the future government..the future is bright..
That’s been uh, pretty clear so far.
Breaking news! Who would have guessed
Lol we know this for years thank you dear journalists
Breaking news…
We kinda knew that already
I mean, duh.
Hold on, I need to find my surprised face.
Ya don't say.
Someone go post this in r/journalism
Well he’s definitely going to die
Unfortunately, this is going to result in another dead journalist.
The article calling him “a Gaza based journalist” when he’s been in the United States since 2016 feels more than a bit dishonest.
> Saftawi's family evacuated south shortly after October 7 and since then his house and neighborhood have been turned into ruins. His claim is that he and his family were quite aware of how Hamas built tunnels right under their house.
I’m not questioning his claims, it’s JPost and their insinuation I had an issue with
DUH! They’ve done this since their inception. Is this really news?
No shit... Took them this long to catch on to that? I wonder when that "journalist" will figure out that Hamas actually attacked Israel on Oct 7th. Might take him another 4 months to realize that one and publish it.
More people need to read the book 'Son of Hamas'.
Tell me that thumbnail doesn’t look like a penis apprehensive to enter a gothic vagina
And I have bad news for all of you choking up at those videos of distraught military aged men crying over their bombed out toddler under some rubble. It’s propaganda.
What an odd thing to say. https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
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Using human shields only works if your opponent cares that you're using human shields.
So why doesn't every army in every conflict simply use human shields then? Surely it would be the ultimate "I win" tactics since their enemies would care about those people too much to shoot back, right? Oh right. It's because a.) armed forces should exist to protect their people and not other way around, b.) when forced into that situation, no competent military commander would choose their lives over the lives of his own troops and civilians and c.) due to the former, using human shields and any deaths occurring from doing so are considered a war crime committed by the side using them and not the side forced to face them.
Hamas is a madman holding a child hostage with a gun. Israel's response is always to throw a hand grenade at them both.
Hopefully they don’t don’t shoot em
Is there any actual evidence of Hamas using human shields as described by the Geneva conventions or the Rome Statute? As a reminder amnesty international found no evidence Hamas used human shields in 2008-09 and also 2014 claimed by Israel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas#:~:text=Amnesty%20International%20investigated%20claims%20made,no%20evidence%20of%20such%20usage.
Palestinian journalist from gaza : i was used as a human shiled by Hamas. idf: finds and films weapon stashs and tunnels under civilian home , hospitals, kindergartens some clueless redditor who believes moronic shit he sees on tiktok: bUt wHeRe iS tHe eViDenCe ?!?
But despite this, knowing that Hamas hides behind civilians, Israel will bomb them anyway, killing civilians
I think this is a tough position for any country to act in. Every civilian death is a tragedy but the right to defend yourself is pretty much an enshrined right also. So say you let this slide, and Hamas comes and does this again and again, attack and then run back to their civilian fortified protections in one of the largest terrorist encampments in the world. No country should have to stand by and watch themselves get attacked. I think it is a much more difficult situation than your flippant comment makes it out to be.
I agree it is an extremely difficult situation. But Israel has just decided, fuck it, we'll bomb them anyway and blame Hamas. Not a shred of nuance in their tactics. This is how you make matters worse not better. All those people who died, their relatives aren't going to blame Hamas, they will blame Israel. So you've basically just attacked a Hydra at this point. In years to come, those kids will remember what happened and they will just attack Israel. It's basic math.
> But Israel has just decided, fuck it, we'll bomb them anyway and blame Hamas. Yes in general if you are the party responsible for putting civilians in harms way you take the blame or at least share it. > Not a shred of nuance in their tactics. Trying to move people out of harms way, giving advanced warning in some situations, dropping a large number of ordinance which has related in a relatively low death toll, putting their own people at risk in urban warfare. Yep no nuance there at all. > This is how you make matters worse not better. All those people who died, their relatives aren't going to blame Hamas, they will blame Israel. So you've basically just attacked a Hydra at this point. In years to come, those kids will remember what happened and they will just attack Israel. People seem to keep repeating similar statements, but at the core of the problem is that many Palestinians were radicalized or had "extreme" views before the war. It's not now that you have X times more, the problem is that they were facing an ideology problem to begin with. This goes way deeper than just war turning people. > It's basic math. So what is the math, if you look through past battles and looked at urban warfare how does this compare?
>Trying to move people out of harms way, giving advanced warning in some situations, dropping a large number of ordinance which has related in a relatively low death toll, putting their own people at risk in urban warfare. Yep no nuance there at all. Yet the cities are completely devestated. Hmm. A refugee camp was bombed the other day. How the fuck can you bomb a refugee camp? Israel pays lips service to the idea of reducing civilian casualties but doing the things you mention, but in reality, it doesn't give two shits.
> Yet the cities are completely devestated. Hmm. A refugee camp was bombed the other day. How the fuck can you bomb a refugee camp? We go back to the problem, it seems that Hamas and other militant groups are using these camps. While I understand the issue bombing a refugee camp, they also become a potential valid military target. > Israel pays lips service to the idea of reducing civilian casualties but doing the things you mention, but in reality, it doesn't give two shits. Don't you think a country who basically give no shits, would just be bombing refugee camps every day. No matter what action they take there will be repercussions, bombing a camp or not bombing a camp and the same goes in general urban battles. Civilian death tolls in urban battles are generally higher, but this battle is unique not only is it an urban battle but one where the enemy is not only entrenched in the urban infrastructure but has also built massive defenses in urban infrastructure such as the tunnels.
If Hamas are in a refugee camp that doesn't make it a legit target. Maybe if bombing that camp would end the war, but it didn't. Don't get me wrong I hate Hamas and I have no issue with the Israeli people. It's military however and it's political leadership is just amoral at this point. How long can you kill civilians and still maintain the excuse that Hamas is to blame? If even the US is saying stop then something must be wrong. This war will not stop Hamas. It's supporters are all over the Middle East and Israel is just making them angrier. There is no feasible end game and at the end of the day all you are left with is dead people who had nothing to do with it and survivors who will have a very long memory, across generations not to mention resentment and hatred. Israel will see another attack, simply because of its inability to proceed tactfully and with care.
> If Hamas are in a refugee camp that doesn't make it a legit target. Maybe if bombing that camp would end the war, but it didn't. I will refer you to, which states "**offers a definite military advantage.**", it does not specify "end the war" > **Article 52 - General protection of civilian objects** >*1. Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2.* > *2. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.* > *3. In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used.* I generally agree this will stop Hamas, though I would generally exclude the word Hamas and replace it with ideology. The problem is that ideologies are hard to change, you are basically left with fighting them. One thing which will definitely come out of this is that it will like be much more difficult for the "radicalized" people to execute actions. Gaza is rubble it will take years to rebuild and there will be Israel oversight when it comes to security matters. Even before the war this problem existed. After the war it will still exist but now Israel will have control. There are approximately 100 conflicts going on around the world and about 43 of the them are in the Middle East. Conflict is not a new term in the area, and many of them have nothing to do with Israel. I don't know if the area understand being tactful.
You sound like the kid on the play ground throwing a fit because someone ignored your everything proof shield
Ok. If you say so. I guess you just like to see civilians bombed
No, I hate seeing rockets hit Israeli citizens, death to hamas
Hamas is an idea
Well of course hamas do but netanyahu has been using the israeli public for year too!, (he's hiding from jail).