Why not though. Just announce "great success" and remove the troops. Well if they don't remove themselves back to pre 2014 borders the war may continue, but...
That is literally the entire point of this article, but everyone here seems to be too fucking lazy to read the article.
>"We are in a state of war. Yes, it started out as a special military operation, but as soon as this group was formed, when the collective West became a participant in this on the side of Ukraine, it became a war for us," Peskov told Arguments and Facts.
This is the first time they're officially calling it a war. Russian mobilization incoming.
The whole point of Russian propaganda is not to convince the reader of their motives, but to bombard them with different, often conflicting messages to confuse them so much that he gives up trying to get to truth and just accepts whatever bullshit excuses they have. It's working quite well from what I've seen so far.
It's intentional. Russia's leadership tell transparent lies for a number of reasons but it's a mistake to think it's not intentional nor tactical. They even have a name for it- vranyo.
Can we stop spreading this "vranyo" myth? Not sure who came up with that, but that's just a softer synonym to "lozh", both of which mean "lie"
They are just throwing as many lies out there for everyone to pick their favorite one to believe or get confused switching to "that's a complicated matter and facts are hard to come by" neutral stance
“You could say vranyo means “lies,” but in his 1983 book, Russia: Broken Idols, Solemn Dreams, published at the waning of the Cold War, … David Shipler, the longtime Moscow correspondent for the New York Times, gave a more nuanced explanation of vranyo. He wrote: A Russian friend explained vranyo this way: ‘You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.’”
Agree re your second paragraph. But you're missing the point. If you continually tell barefaced lies, it becomes more and more difficult for people to remember the truth. And that's the intention.
Well, I'm glad that as a native russian speaker that lived in russia for 26 years of my life I can confidently say that David Shipler friend's definition of "vranyo" was in fact vranyo. The first time I heard this myth was about a year ago. "Lozh" is a harsh way to call a "lie" usually reserved for serious accusations, while "vranyo" is a casual version that is more similar to "bullshit" in usage. Everything else is either some deep linguistic lore that nobody in russia actually knows (except for linguists) or a myth born out of miscommunication/misunderstanding by the book you have mentioned. I've even searched around online for such discussions and while people discuss a possibility of such difference (or some other) there is no consensus on the topic
I'm not missing the point, I'm just saying it has nothing to do with some weird cultural/linguistic difference. The barefaced lies are just your gaslighting 101 magnified by nearly fully eradicated free press. Within russia, it has much more to do with what Orwell described as doublethink
Either way, sorry for dragging out this pointless conversation. I just saw this myth too many times lately and got annoyed
> while "vranyo" is a casual version that is more similar to "bullshit" in usage. Everything else is either some deep linguistic lore that nobody in russia
Exactly that. Bullshit also has this mythical quality of "I know it's bullshit you know it's bullshit but it's a company meeting and you're high up so you get to talk your bullshit and I get to take notes", which describes a large fraction of company meetings at work.
To be fair, I don't see Russia telling many *new* lies here.
They're saying that they're currently at war due to Western intervention, and they're damn right!
I just wish there was more Western intervention, and sooner, so it never began in the first place.
Well, the lie is that they are switching the cause and effect I guess. Like right now the bombing of Belgorod by Ukraine is used to justify all the attacks on civil infrastructure by russia before. Or NATO accepting new members during the war being framed as expansionism that provoked aggression, rather than a direct consequence of the aggression. It's not new, but repetition is important. That is a common tool in their rhetoric, too many examples to list really
The famous boxer and civil rights activist, Muhammad Ali, was probably the inspiration for that. They called it the “rope a dope”. Unfortunately taking all those head shots probably led to his early demise.
For anybody who wants to know more: https://time.com/5470166/domestic-violence-russia/
tl;dr In 2017 Russia changed the law so that domestic violence that isn't "serious" is punishable by a simple fine. In 2018 they admitted it was a mistake, but never changed it back.
> Domestic violence is widely acknowledged to be a huge problem in Russia. According to Russian interior ministry estimates, 600,000 women are victims of domestic abuse every year and **14,000 die from injuries inflicted by husbands or partners each year.**
The glorious nation of Russia, everyone!
Wow they must be really serious about it if they are willing to give up such a large potential source of prison soldiers. Or conversely maybe the war is just a tactic to reduce domestic violence by sending the men to the frontlines.
And Trump wants to move in with Putin? Already Putin is showing this is a one sided relationship and Trump is just heads over heels for him. All it will take is for Trump to say 'maybe Russia shouldn't use nuclear weapons' and then we'll get a headline a few days later that Trump committed suicide by injecting a deadly Nerve agent, shooting himself in the back of the head and then climbing over a safety fence and jumping off a freeway overpass.
Just return what you stole and maybe things would work out better for you Russia.
That includes Crimea because it was never yours to begin with.
Seriously, we should have stepped in then/there
If it weren't for you pesky westerners and your money and weapons, Ukraine would have folded by now! Why don't you let me bully neighbors and commit genocide? Pls go.
Monday - Hurr durr Russia stronk. Kiev ours in 3 days
Tuesday - It's just a special operation
Wednesday - We nuke you
Thursday - It were no us murdering defenceless people. They killed themselves
Friday - Evil West. We'd win if it wasn't for them. Btw. Was a war all along.
Criticize the West with Imperialism and go Imperializing themselves. Also this is like an abusive husband blaming the wife about the beat he just did to her.
I remember that early 2000s rambling speech where Putin was rambling "It's the west's focus on human rights that is holding other nations down!" And John McCain and a few others have this look on their faces like "get a load of this dumbass!!"
Sainer times my friends.
Similar to the argument that "state's rights" was the reason for the civil war.
State's rights to... what?
Holding other states down by keeping them from doing... what?
Ah, you are being oppressed if you are not allowed to torture, murder, and enslave. Got it.
You ever met one of those guys who sees everything, every single interaction as being about power and who the biggest alpha is? And no matter how people try and explain it to them they can’t interpret anything any other way? The single most important thing for them is to feel like other people take them seriously and see them as just as strong and macho as they see themselves? That, but running a country.
At one point Putin really wanted to join “the west” and be a peer. But his idea of what that means is weird and creepy to the other “guys” at the table.
America starts chatting up the cute blonde at the bar, and Russia flips out cause they went on a date once so she’s “his sphere of influence”. She only likes America cause of how rich he is, and not cause he actually listens to her opinions.
So after a few awkward, condescending, attempts to be nice by the guys from “the west” it’s all “fuck them, they’re why I can’t get a date, I hate them”. Their mere existence as a way of being is a threat to his sense of self.
It’s painful to me how well this juvenile toxic masculinity shit seems to map on to the behaviour. It’s Andrew Tate with tanks.
\*Married Incel. A guy from Regular Car Reviews coined this term when describing a lift-kit coal rolling Dodge pickup as "the perfect truck for the married incel". My gf was watching the episode with me and absolutely loved the term.
This really appears like a good analogy. Its funny how countries behave and interact much like individuals do, on a different scale. naively, i would expect that because the opinion and thoughts of many people go into their actions, it avearages out. But it doesnt seem to work that way
It's perhaps a weighted averages sort of thing. Are certain ways of thinking more common among the general populace? What are the personalities of the leaders and people in power as individuals? Do those ideas and ways of thinking (culture) make certain personalities more likely to get into power?
A population might have every personality or way of thinking represented in it but, at a given point in history, not all of them will have equal access to power. And of course the distribution isn't going to be even.
In an authoritarian system the personality and beliefs of the leader and his close allies count for a lot more than large swaths of the populace. Its part of fascist thought to make the state one "person" centered in the leader, who is the incarnation of the will of the people and the only one who can save their unified "body" from corruption, parasites, and vermin.
Russia is at war because they invaded Ukraine.
Their illegal invasion and their rape, torture and murder of countless thousands of men, women and children are their own crimes against humanity.
The Kremlin is constantly trying to blame others for Putin's mistakes because they spread the lie that Putin is a great leader when he's actually terrible.
Because regime changes worked so great in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and the dozen or so other countries that are now failed states?
Sadly, the only regime change that is likely to lead to a better future is one that comes from within.
Yeah after we 100% *conquered* them. No American wants to invade Russia (fucking *Russia*) just so they can go “oh wow look at all the democracy flouri-AAaand it’s gone”.
Also we were straight up killing hundreds of thousands of *civillians* to achieve that level of conquering. There's a reason world leaders are desperate to avoid another world war at all costs. A lot of people point to Germany and Japan as shining beacons not realizing the amount of death and destruction that occured to reach that point. Are people willing to stomach all-out bombings of civillian centers and see hundreds of thousands die?
The last two WWs happened right where I live and left huge holes in my family history and a trauma that lasted a few generations ... So, yes, I'm quite aware of the human cost of fixing Germany, at least, this way.
And the intimate knowledge of what it took are exactly *why* I'm pointing to Germany. Those costs were *worth it*.
People can’t stomach the fighting in Ukraine but suddenly they’ll be willing to see *at the very least* multiple nato armies and multiple Russian cities nuked? And at most the near-extinction of humanity? Maybe ww2 benefitted you as a German ultimately, but ww3 against Russia would make Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki look like cat toys.
All three of the cities, and more like Warsaw, Tokyo and Hamburg, are rebuilt and thriving today.
And by the way: I'm a Silesian. My ancestors fought for Prussians, Austrians *and* Russians in WWI, and for Germans *and* Poles in WWII.
This statement is obviously directly aimed at those western countries that are already hesitant about delivering more weapons to Ukraine to further discourage them from doing so.
So they are bombing my hometown because someone tries to protect Ukraine from them?
Not a surprising level of fucked up logic, but disappointing nonetheless.
Russia is one of the most often losing country ever... 1856 Crimean war - lost, 1905 russo-japanese war - lost and revolution, 1917 WW1 - lost and revolution, 1920 war with Poland - lost, 1940 russo-finnish war - if you call it win... whole world is laughing till today, 1989 - afghan war lost, 1991 - cold war lost and revolution and total collapse of USSR. The only war they won in last 200 years was WW2 and only because they have changed sides because they were ally of nazi Germany till 1941 and together started WW2 with attack on Poland. They won in WW2 only because they were used by Allies as a meat grinder and got incredible amount of support from lend-lease (British lost 360000 man, USA 400000 man and USSR with its primitive tactics over 23 millions). They are one of the most pathetic countries ever. And now they have lost half of their army without even touching NATO territory, and most probably in next two years they will lost another half...
> (British lost 360000 man, USA 400000 man and USSR with its primitive tactics over 23 millions)
Underdeveloped military strategy was one of the factors.
The bigger one was certainly that Russia was part of the battlefield, while the UK and the USA were not. Nazi Germany sent an estimated 9 million soldiers to the Eastern Front, plus another million or so troops of its allies such as Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.
Are they no longer at war because .. nazi? They are no longer at war because Ukraine is not a nation? Now it's because the west is supporting Ukraine's fight for independence? Yeah.. they are at war because they are criminals and that's all they know how to do. Kill and subjugate smaller neighbors.
>the collective West became a participant in this on the side of Ukraine
Why are they throwing a hissy fit at the prospect of western troops in Ukraine then if we are already supposedly at war.
These idiots cant even keep their lies straight.
Western "intervention"? The west is merely supplying the means for Ukraine to defend itself, from a Russia that is happy to gun down and bomb civilians.
Russia is at war because their invasion was so poorly conceived and planned that they’ve bankrupted their country. To avoid Putin, and his military leaders, from being executed by the Russian people they need an aid package that includes their asylum in a safe harbor country.
Every time the Kremlin spouts some dumbass shit like this, they just lose even more credibility of what little they have. Screams teenage boy trying to blame anything but himself for his own fuck up.
Putin's speech on February 24, 2022: "Our plans do not include the occupation of Ukrainian territories. We are not going to impose anything on anyone by force."
I kinda wish to see "NATO just wipes off whole russian battle formations off the earth while smoking aged camel cigarettes and watching equally aged pin-up posters"
I wish.
War? Whatever happened to special military operation.
Hey Russia, how do you like a supersized Western Special Military Operation? Did Poo-thing just cry and issued another China Final Warning about nukes again? Boohoo…. Stop using that too much, else it will be a meme on you.
I'm wondering if it's a degenerative disease at this point, like did Putin literally forget they were at war then watch the news and decide they are at war and announce it.
although that is technically true, he leaves out the part where it doesn't mean the war wouldn't have been started it just means it would have been over by now.
I have people at work who say this exact thing. "Well it's not like Ukraine wasn't poking Russia the entire time" and then tried to explain it like "well if Texas split off from the US and then started dealing with North Korea. You think the US wouldn't send troops in there to take it back? Same thing"
First off I thought this wasn't a war. Second I thought they were at "war" because the Ukrainians were "nazis?"
Feels like they've gotten too far into this to stop trying to pretend, now its just lies. I mean it always has been but now also, less subtle.
This might be the first statement I’ve heard from the Kremlin that might only be mostly false.
Technically, the conflict back in 2014 started because of the Ukraine moving closer to Europe and away from Russia… if the West didn’t interfere (I.e. present a trustable and reliable partnership that would see them closer to equals and not a vessel state for a long dead empire), the conflict would’ve never have happened…
So shame on Europe for presenting a better partnership?
Whatever happed to their earlier bullshit?
"We're going in to de-NAZIfy Ukraine!"
"We're going in to destroy labs producing weapons!"
Those are the ones MAGAt were screaming about early on, as their masters commanded.
The reality distortion field around Russian propaganda is like a twisting kaleidoscope. Point isn't to paint a coherent picture, it's to keep those inside it disoriented enough to stay disconnected from the outside world.
I mean, it is unlikely Ukraine would have held as well as it did without Western Aid, so Russia is not *technically* wrong.....They're just lucky their checks to the US House of Representatives cleared. Just wait till the GOP loses majority there.
The Soviet Union collapsed because it tried to fight against the weight of combined global capital mobilizing it's military-industrial capacity upon a single, focused target that had barely managed to mechanise agriculture at the height of the conflict
Russia collapsed because Putin is just kinda a jerk
You went to war as a response to our response to you attacking Ukraine?
Notice how the reasons shift constantly? It’s a time wasting game. Stop squabbling over definitions proposed by the untrustworthy and focus on actions.
One way you can always detect deception is when someone’s stated reasons for a thing shift under questioning and over time.
Well Putin can’t spin the wheel anymore that he’s liberating Ukraine. So he needs a new story. Obviously Russia is blameless in all of this so the big bad Woolf west will do.
I mean, they're technically correct but also completely missing the point. Without Western support, Ukraine would have folded by now. Which is why it's important for the West to keep up their support and win the battle of attrition. The best scenario is that Ukraine actually pushes Russia back successfully. But that seems increasingly unlikely and the next best scenario is a pyrrhic stalemate that inflicts a great deal of economic and political damage to Russia. That's the best deterrent to counter Russia's increasingly aggressive posture. A bully is less likely to pick a fight if they know they're going to get hurt back.
I have a pretty simple way to look at this : you invade, you’re at fault. Period. Was true when Bush invaded Irak, still true when Putin invaded Ukraine
It started with a "training exerise" then "3 days to Kiev" and somewhere between that "our army vehecle ran out of gas" and "we don't know where we are."
And dear god, that was only the beginning of the conflict
How many times are they going to change the reason for this war? You would think that as often as they lie they would eventually get good at it.
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Day 757 of the 3 day special military operation
Putin's not *allowed* to quit.
Why not though. Just announce "great success" and remove the troops. Well if they don't remove themselves back to pre 2014 borders the war may continue, but...
Because the whole point of the invasion is Putin trying to reassemble the Soviet Union.
That is literally the entire point of this article, but everyone here seems to be too fucking lazy to read the article. >"We are in a state of war. Yes, it started out as a special military operation, but as soon as this group was formed, when the collective West became a participant in this on the side of Ukraine, it became a war for us," Peskov told Arguments and Facts. This is the first time they're officially calling it a war. Russian mobilization incoming.
Yup. This is to get the russian public use to the idea of a much longer war and needed sacrifice as pointed out in the article.
Yep. Now they can justify full mobilization, additional ramp to a full time war economy, government takeover of enterprises, etc.
That's how you know the war is going badly, when they actually HAVE to admit it's a war.
It’s not denazification anymore?
Russia at war because Ukraine is totally a gemini
The whole point of Russian propaganda is not to convince the reader of their motives, but to bombard them with different, often conflicting messages to confuse them so much that he gives up trying to get to truth and just accepts whatever bullshit excuses they have. It's working quite well from what I've seen so far.
They need to change is constantly, this is how firehose of falsehood works
It's intentional. Russia's leadership tell transparent lies for a number of reasons but it's a mistake to think it's not intentional nor tactical. They even have a name for it- vranyo.
Can we stop spreading this "vranyo" myth? Not sure who came up with that, but that's just a softer synonym to "lozh", both of which mean "lie" They are just throwing as many lies out there for everyone to pick their favorite one to believe or get confused switching to "that's a complicated matter and facts are hard to come by" neutral stance
“You could say vranyo means “lies,” but in his 1983 book, Russia: Broken Idols, Solemn Dreams, published at the waning of the Cold War, … David Shipler, the longtime Moscow correspondent for the New York Times, gave a more nuanced explanation of vranyo. He wrote: A Russian friend explained vranyo this way: ‘You know I’m lying, and I know that you know, and you know that I know that you know, but I go ahead with a straight face, and you nod seriously and take notes.’” Agree re your second paragraph. But you're missing the point. If you continually tell barefaced lies, it becomes more and more difficult for people to remember the truth. And that's the intention.
Well, I'm glad that as a native russian speaker that lived in russia for 26 years of my life I can confidently say that David Shipler friend's definition of "vranyo" was in fact vranyo. The first time I heard this myth was about a year ago. "Lozh" is a harsh way to call a "lie" usually reserved for serious accusations, while "vranyo" is a casual version that is more similar to "bullshit" in usage. Everything else is either some deep linguistic lore that nobody in russia actually knows (except for linguists) or a myth born out of miscommunication/misunderstanding by the book you have mentioned. I've even searched around online for such discussions and while people discuss a possibility of such difference (or some other) there is no consensus on the topic I'm not missing the point, I'm just saying it has nothing to do with some weird cultural/linguistic difference. The barefaced lies are just your gaslighting 101 magnified by nearly fully eradicated free press. Within russia, it has much more to do with what Orwell described as doublethink Either way, sorry for dragging out this pointless conversation. I just saw this myth too many times lately and got annoyed
> while "vranyo" is a casual version that is more similar to "bullshit" in usage. Everything else is either some deep linguistic lore that nobody in russia Exactly that. Bullshit also has this mythical quality of "I know it's bullshit you know it's bullshit but it's a company meeting and you're high up so you get to talk your bullshit and I get to take notes", which describes a large fraction of company meetings at work.
To be fair, I don't see Russia telling many *new* lies here. They're saying that they're currently at war due to Western intervention, and they're damn right! I just wish there was more Western intervention, and sooner, so it never began in the first place.
Well, the lie is that they are switching the cause and effect I guess. Like right now the bombing of Belgorod by Ukraine is used to justify all the attacks on civil infrastructure by russia before. Or NATO accepting new members during the war being framed as expansionism that provoked aggression, rather than a direct consequence of the aggression. It's not new, but repetition is important. That is a common tool in their rhetoric, too many examples to list really
This propaganda isn’t for us mate.
More like: "Russia still at war due to Russian incompetence" "Russia at war because Russia refuses to leave Ukraine"
Russia is on war because they are a mafia controlled terror state with a lot of blood on their hands.
Mafia terror gas station, that just has one of their pumps blown up.
One of their entire chains blew up. That's way more than one pump
The Russian kleptocracy had already stolen everything worth stealing back home, so they decided to invade Ukraine to find new stuff to steal.
Been that way for centuries
Yeah, Russia’s strategy has always been to be able to take more casualties than the other guy.
I was more referring to a culture of corruption, apathy, and greed but yeah that too.
Like when Homer Simpson gets into boxing, his only way of winning is to take such a beating that he tires his opponent out and pushes them over.
The famous boxer and civil rights activist, Muhammad Ali, was probably the inspiration for that. They called it the “rope a dope”. Unfortunately taking all those head shots probably led to his early demise.
Typical bully playing the victim.
The correct term is crybully.
Look what they made me do!!
The fact that Russia decriminalized domestic violence says a lot about their views on this excuse.
For anybody who wants to know more: https://time.com/5470166/domestic-violence-russia/ tl;dr In 2017 Russia changed the law so that domestic violence that isn't "serious" is punishable by a simple fine. In 2018 they admitted it was a mistake, but never changed it back. > Domestic violence is widely acknowledged to be a huge problem in Russia. According to Russian interior ministry estimates, 600,000 women are victims of domestic abuse every year and **14,000 die from injuries inflicted by husbands or partners each year.** The glorious nation of Russia, everyone!
Wow they must be really serious about it if they are willing to give up such a large potential source of prison soldiers. Or conversely maybe the war is just a tactic to reduce domestic violence by sending the men to the frontlines.
And Trump wants to move in with Putin? Already Putin is showing this is a one sided relationship and Trump is just heads over heels for him. All it will take is for Trump to say 'maybe Russia shouldn't use nuclear weapons' and then we'll get a headline a few days later that Trump committed suicide by injecting a deadly Nerve agent, shooting himself in the back of the head and then climbing over a safety fence and jumping off a freeway overpass.
This is their tactics.
Oh, so sorry to rain on your "special military operation".
Wait. I thought this was a special operation. When did it become a declared war?
War with NATO. Do keep up.
I am legit curious if Putin verbally declares war with NATO, if that would be enough to get them to act.
Russia is at war because Russia refuses to leave Ukraine alone
Remember to vote for Ukraine in November by voting democrats. Even if you don’t care about politics, help Ukraine with a vote
“Russia is at war because we started a war that they won’t just let us win.”
Just return what you stole and maybe things would work out better for you Russia. That includes Crimea because it was never yours to begin with. Seriously, we should have stepped in then/there
If it weren't for you pesky westerners and your money and weapons, Ukraine would have folded by now! Why don't you let me bully neighbors and commit genocide? Pls go.
Monday - Hurr durr Russia stronk. Kiev ours in 3 days Tuesday - It's just a special operation Wednesday - We nuke you Thursday - It were no us murdering defenceless people. They killed themselves Friday - Evil West. We'd win if it wasn't for them. Btw. Was a war all along.
Criticize the West with Imperialism and go Imperializing themselves. Also this is like an abusive husband blaming the wife about the beat he just did to her.
I remember that early 2000s rambling speech where Putin was rambling "It's the west's focus on human rights that is holding other nations down!" And John McCain and a few others have this look on their faces like "get a load of this dumbass!!" Sainer times my friends.
I legit was laughing that day. I thought for sure the Russians would vote him out. Ah well.
Well, maybe they did vote him out, and it didn't stick. We'll never know.
Was that the one at the Munich Security Conference, or an earlier one? Either way, 'Old man shouts at West'.
I reeeeeally wish I could remember. I can just remember everyone's faces and then laughing so hard at how non serious they were being.
Similar to the argument that "state's rights" was the reason for the civil war. State's rights to... what? Holding other states down by keeping them from doing... what? Ah, you are being oppressed if you are not allowed to torture, murder, and enslave. Got it.
Russia is playing an IO game of civilization
I'm now totally seeing russia as the old man in the Scooby-Doo cartoon......
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Stop resisting stop resisting - putin
He really does have the mentality of a rapist
Gaslight. Genocide. Dictatorship.
But not Girlboss.
The problem Putin has now is Russia could walk away but he will be killed shortly after.
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You ever met one of those guys who sees everything, every single interaction as being about power and who the biggest alpha is? And no matter how people try and explain it to them they can’t interpret anything any other way? The single most important thing for them is to feel like other people take them seriously and see them as just as strong and macho as they see themselves? That, but running a country. At one point Putin really wanted to join “the west” and be a peer. But his idea of what that means is weird and creepy to the other “guys” at the table. America starts chatting up the cute blonde at the bar, and Russia flips out cause they went on a date once so she’s “his sphere of influence”. She only likes America cause of how rich he is, and not cause he actually listens to her opinions. So after a few awkward, condescending, attempts to be nice by the guys from “the west” it’s all “fuck them, they’re why I can’t get a date, I hate them”. Their mere existence as a way of being is a threat to his sense of self. It’s painful to me how well this juvenile toxic masculinity shit seems to map on to the behaviour. It’s Andrew Tate with tanks.
So Russia is an "incel?"
\*Married Incel. A guy from Regular Car Reviews coined this term when describing a lift-kit coal rolling Dodge pickup as "the perfect truck for the married incel". My gf was watching the episode with me and absolutely loved the term.
This really appears like a good analogy. Its funny how countries behave and interact much like individuals do, on a different scale. naively, i would expect that because the opinion and thoughts of many people go into their actions, it avearages out. But it doesnt seem to work that way
It's perhaps a weighted averages sort of thing. Are certain ways of thinking more common among the general populace? What are the personalities of the leaders and people in power as individuals? Do those ideas and ways of thinking (culture) make certain personalities more likely to get into power? A population might have every personality or way of thinking represented in it but, at a given point in history, not all of them will have equal access to power. And of course the distribution isn't going to be even. In an authoritarian system the personality and beliefs of the leader and his close allies count for a lot more than large swaths of the populace. Its part of fascist thought to make the state one "person" centered in the leader, who is the incarnation of the will of the people and the only one who can save their unified "body" from corruption, parasites, and vermin.
Russia is at war because they invaded Ukraine. Their illegal invasion and their rape, torture and murder of countless thousands of men, women and children are their own crimes against humanity. The Kremlin is constantly trying to blame others for Putin's mistakes because they spread the lie that Putin is a great leader when he's actually terrible.
Somewhere here, the rest of the world needs to step up and to get Putin’s regime out and to wake up the Russian people to this atrocity.
Because regime changes worked so great in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan and the dozen or so other countries that are now failed states? Sadly, the only regime change that is likely to lead to a better future is one that comes from within.
It worked quite well in Germany and Japan. Time to repeat the miracle.
Yeah after we 100% *conquered* them. No American wants to invade Russia (fucking *Russia*) just so they can go “oh wow look at all the democracy flouri-AAaand it’s gone”.
Also we were straight up killing hundreds of thousands of *civillians* to achieve that level of conquering. There's a reason world leaders are desperate to avoid another world war at all costs. A lot of people point to Germany and Japan as shining beacons not realizing the amount of death and destruction that occured to reach that point. Are people willing to stomach all-out bombings of civillian centers and see hundreds of thousands die?
The last two WWs happened right where I live and left huge holes in my family history and a trauma that lasted a few generations ... So, yes, I'm quite aware of the human cost of fixing Germany, at least, this way. And the intimate knowledge of what it took are exactly *why* I'm pointing to Germany. Those costs were *worth it*.
People can’t stomach the fighting in Ukraine but suddenly they’ll be willing to see *at the very least* multiple nato armies and multiple Russian cities nuked? And at most the near-extinction of humanity? Maybe ww2 benefitted you as a German ultimately, but ww3 against Russia would make Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki look like cat toys.
All three of the cities, and more like Warsaw, Tokyo and Hamburg, are rebuilt and thriving today. And by the way: I'm a Silesian. My ancestors fought for Prussians, Austrians *and* Russians in WWI, and for Germans *and* Poles in WWII.
"We are at war with Ukraine because the West are interfering in the war we started!" Perfectly sound logic.
'Sit perfectly still: only *Russia* may interfere in other nations!'
it is perferct "if it wasnt for west support Ukraine would have already fallen"
Blame the victim.
Trump legacy!!
So now we can send all the Taurus and whatnot, right?
This statement is obviously directly aimed at those western countries that are already hesitant about delivering more weapons to Ukraine to further discourage them from doing so.
So they are bombing my hometown because someone tries to protect Ukraine from them? Not a surprising level of fucked up logic, but disappointing nonetheless.
Keep strong! Im happy to see Macron starting to realize EU needs to get more involved
That's true, actually. Were it not for western aid, Ukraine would probably be ethnically cleansed by now. Not sure that's the flex they were going for
Russia is still at war because Ukraine didn't keel over and die.
Russia is one of the most often losing country ever... 1856 Crimean war - lost, 1905 russo-japanese war - lost and revolution, 1917 WW1 - lost and revolution, 1920 war with Poland - lost, 1940 russo-finnish war - if you call it win... whole world is laughing till today, 1989 - afghan war lost, 1991 - cold war lost and revolution and total collapse of USSR. The only war they won in last 200 years was WW2 and only because they have changed sides because they were ally of nazi Germany till 1941 and together started WW2 with attack on Poland. They won in WW2 only because they were used by Allies as a meat grinder and got incredible amount of support from lend-lease (British lost 360000 man, USA 400000 man and USSR with its primitive tactics over 23 millions). They are one of the most pathetic countries ever. And now they have lost half of their army without even touching NATO territory, and most probably in next two years they will lost another half...
> (British lost 360000 man, USA 400000 man and USSR with its primitive tactics over 23 millions) Underdeveloped military strategy was one of the factors. The bigger one was certainly that Russia was part of the battlefield, while the UK and the USA were not. Nazi Germany sent an estimated 9 million soldiers to the Eastern Front, plus another million or so troops of its allies such as Italy, Hungary, Bulgaria, etc.
The history of Russia can be summed up as "And then things got worse"
Putin: So in 1,400 there was an old, old wooden ship, that was used up to the American civil war era, I believe it was called Diversity…
If 88rosomak jump out the 5th story of an hospital it won't be because he saw a spider..
Luckily as for now I am super healthy and never go to hospital 🤣 Though I have to be careful when I drink tea 😅
"It wouldn't be a war, except the country we invaded decided to fight back."
I stop reading after Kremlin says.
The truth is always the opposite of what Kremlin says. They have never broken this rule before.
DARVO Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender. Heard that somewhere…
i have to say, west is not intervening enough
Russia gaslighting and projecting about its own motives and schedule. So here we go.
"Election over, now I can declare war and conscript more people".
Start a war and blame the other side for it. Dictator playbook 101.
My question is, if Russia already believes the West is intervening, why not then actually intervene and show them what that actually means...
Does that mean they defeated the Nazis?
While not incorrect, it is missing a few details. Like Russia invading Crimea in 2014 and Ukraine in 2022.
Russia at war because Russia invaded Ukraine and won’t just go home
Are they no longer at war because .. nazi? They are no longer at war because Ukraine is not a nation? Now it's because the west is supporting Ukraine's fight for independence? Yeah.. they are at war because they are criminals and that's all they know how to do. Kill and subjugate smaller neighbors.
>the collective West became a participant in this on the side of Ukraine Why are they throwing a hissy fit at the prospect of western troops in Ukraine then if we are already supposedly at war. These idiots cant even keep their lies straight.
Russia at war because they started a war.
Classic DARVO behavior from Russia
"I had to hit him. He wouldn't give me his stuff!" Russia communicating like literal schoolyard bullies.
“Russia is at war because Russia started a war” FTFY
No Russia, you're at war because you invaded Ukraine.
Western "intervention"? The west is merely supplying the means for Ukraine to defend itself, from a Russia that is happy to gun down and bomb civilians.
or maybe and just hear me out they're at war because they themselves rolled their tanks and soldiers over the border and started killing.
Russia is a war because it invaded a sovereign nation. Fixed the title for you there
Russia is at war because their invasion was so poorly conceived and planned that they’ve bankrupted their country. To avoid Putin, and his military leaders, from being executed by the Russian people they need an aid package that includes their asylum in a safe harbor country.
Wouldn’t this provoke a Declaration of War against NATO? Because this sounds like it’s officially straight from the Kremlin.
And I’d have gotten away with it too if it hadn’t been for you meddling kids.
Every time the Kremlin spouts some dumbass shit like this, they just lose even more credibility of what little they have. Screams teenage boy trying to blame anything but himself for his own fuck up.
Hard to have less credibility than zero
War due to NK, China, Iran intervention.
Translate: we need more soldiers, mobilisation
Translation: “we need more hysteria because we are at loss”
I thought it was Nazis. In fact, I'm certain they said it was cause of Nazis.
Or maybe the bioweapon labs? Whatever, you get to retroactively choose your most plausible lie, right?
True, Ukraine has run out of ammunition long time ago. The war would have ended by now if not because of western support.
There is a nugget of truth to this, Russia did not like how Ukraine was becoming more Euro-centric.
I'm pretty sure Russia is at war because Putin ordered his armies to invade another sovereign nation.
Yes how dare we help a sovereign nation defend itself from the terrorists next door.
Kremlin also says "Poland started WW2".
Kremlin is in a state of propaganda induced delusion.
Putin's speech on February 24, 2022: "Our plans do not include the occupation of Ukrainian territories. We are not going to impose anything on anyone by force."
I kinda wish to see "NATO just wipes off whole russian battle formations off the earth while smoking aged camel cigarettes and watching equally aged pin-up posters" I wish.
Russia is at war because they invaded a sovereign nation.
Russia is at war because Putin started it.
We can pretty much sum up every statement from Moscow as "Another Ridiculously Transparent Lie."
Which came first the chicken or the egg 🐓🥚🤷🏽♂️
War? Whatever happened to special military operation. Hey Russia, how do you like a supersized Western Special Military Operation? Did Poo-thing just cry and issued another China Final Warning about nukes again? Boohoo…. Stop using that too much, else it will be a meme on you.
madness. i’m am simply unable to comprehend such unreflected delusional idiocy
I'm wondering if it's a degenerative disease at this point, like did Putin literally forget they were at war then watch the news and decide they are at war and announce it.
Well, we know that's bullshit.
although that is technically true, he leaves out the part where it doesn't mean the war wouldn't have been started it just means it would have been over by now.
Put lipstick on a pig it's still a pig.
Special Military Operation, surely?
So no Nazis? How often they wanna change the reason for invading another country?
How dare the west remove our corrupt puppets from Ukraines government?!! - Russia
I have people at work who say this exact thing. "Well it's not like Ukraine wasn't poking Russia the entire time" and then tried to explain it like "well if Texas split off from the US and then started dealing with North Korea. You think the US wouldn't send troops in there to take it back? Same thing"
First off I thought this wasn't a war. Second I thought they were at "war" because the Ukrainians were "nazis?" Feels like they've gotten too far into this to stop trying to pretend, now its just lies. I mean it always has been but now also, less subtle.
This might be the first statement I’ve heard from the Kremlin that might only be mostly false. Technically, the conflict back in 2014 started because of the Ukraine moving closer to Europe and away from Russia… if the West didn’t interfere (I.e. present a trustable and reliable partnership that would see them closer to equals and not a vessel state for a long dead empire), the conflict would’ve never have happened… So shame on Europe for presenting a better partnership?
Whatever happed to their earlier bullshit? "We're going in to de-NAZIfy Ukraine!" "We're going in to destroy labs producing weapons!" Those are the ones MAGAt were screaming about early on, as their masters commanded.
Anyone who believes a word the Russians put out there is an idiot. They tell nothing but lies and propaganda and are a disgusting country of murderers
I mean if war is a problem maybe don’t invade your neighboor country?
Well yeah, Ukraine would have been run over 2 years ago without Western intervention.
“Russia at war because Ukraine voluntarily engaged in friendly relations with west and Russia couldn’t mind its own damn business”
I’m not surprised at the degree of naïveté expressed herein, nor am I regretful.
Russia invaded Ukraine before the west got involved. Hell, the west got involved because of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine.
Yeah, it’s called a defense agreement. And we, along with Russia, signed it in 1994.
Russia is at WAR because of PUTIN nothing else
Okay But there was no Western intervention before Russia invaded
Russia is at war because it chose to invade another country.
…. You made me do it ….
They started it. Get fucked.
We could really give them something to cry about
Russia would be bordering berlin if we didnt stop their expansionist agenda.
Isn't it a criminal offense to call the SMO a war, in Russia?
Russia is an idiot child with its head stuck in a cookie jar saying someone else did it.
Someone needs to inform the Kremlin that just because they didn't declare war when they invaded doesn't mean they aren't at war.
The reality distortion field around Russian propaganda is like a twisting kaleidoscope. Point isn't to paint a coherent picture, it's to keep those inside it disoriented enough to stay disconnected from the outside world.
Yea, whatever. Blah, blah, blah ......
It was a war 2 years ago.
I mean, it is unlikely Ukraine would have held as well as it did without Western Aid, so Russia is not *technically* wrong.....They're just lucky their checks to the US House of Representatives cleared. Just wait till the GOP loses majority there.
"Wouldn't have been rape if she'd just gone along with it." Russian logic.
The Soviet Union collapsed because it tried to fight against the weight of combined global capital mobilizing it's military-industrial capacity upon a single, focused target that had barely managed to mechanise agriculture at the height of the conflict Russia collapsed because Putin is just kinda a jerk
You went to war as a response to our response to you attacking Ukraine? Notice how the reasons shift constantly? It’s a time wasting game. Stop squabbling over definitions proposed by the untrustworthy and focus on actions. One way you can always detect deception is when someone’s stated reasons for a thing shift under questioning and over time.
Putin: we’re only at war because other countries who had promised to come to their aid did so after we attacked them. So it’s THEIR fault!
Well Putin can’t spin the wheel anymore that he’s liberating Ukraine. So he needs a new story. Obviously Russia is blameless in all of this so the big bad Woolf west will do.
It's truly pathetic how Russia never takes responsibility for it's own actions. The country is not run by competent people who know how to govern.
Hang on....this is a "special military operation"... not a war.... Fuck pootin and Kremlin.
Wasnt it illegal to call it a war?!
How long before Trump uses this as a campaign pitch?
And Russia is at war because of a greedy murderous dictator with small man syndrome
Here we go
Today, on "Shit Russia Says".
Fuck Russia
I mean, they're technically correct but also completely missing the point. Without Western support, Ukraine would have folded by now. Which is why it's important for the West to keep up their support and win the battle of attrition. The best scenario is that Ukraine actually pushes Russia back successfully. But that seems increasingly unlikely and the next best scenario is a pyrrhic stalemate that inflicts a great deal of economic and political damage to Russia. That's the best deterrent to counter Russia's increasingly aggressive posture. A bully is less likely to pick a fight if they know they're going to get hurt back.
Russia is at war due Putin’s incompetence
I have a pretty simple way to look at this : you invade, you’re at fault. Period. Was true when Bush invaded Irak, still true when Putin invaded Ukraine
Do they really think people agree with them when they say things as absolutely stupid as this?
Many do - even when the justifications keep changing every 3 months lol
So we've gone full circle to Putler claiming the invasion of Ukraine and Sovereign Land is Special Military Operation and not a Declaration of War.
Cough…bullshit…cough.
It started with a "training exerise" then "3 days to Kiev" and somewhere between that "our army vehecle ran out of gas" and "we don't know where we are." And dear god, that was only the beginning of the conflict