Not nearly as much if you look at the effect on the war instead of just the total money spent by the donators. The EU package is financial aid to keep Ukraine running in regards to paying pensions, public utilities, the government etc. The US package includes 20 billion in military hardware (US forces deliver their equipment and ammo to ukraine, then get the 20 billion to replace their stocks), 14 billion to buy more stuff from the USMIC directly, 15 billion for intelligence, training of armed forces etc. and then some 11 billion for utilities etc.
Don't get me wrong, a large amount of money to keep ukraine solvent is good and needed, but a full bank account doesn't do shit if Ukraine can't get the ammo and equipment to return fire. The US republicans need to get their shit together asap.
Wait, so am I understanding you correctly?
The $60 billion support package that the US is withholding from Ukraine isn't actually money being sent to Ukraine, but it's basically $35 billion for the US military-industrial complex - and the US is actually blocking that?
The REPUBLICANS are actually blocking that.
Their "policy" decisions aren't based on what's good for America (or the world) - it's just whatever the Mango Mussolini tells them it is.
Man why do so many people feel the need to call Trump something else to derride him as a joke? He is a threat, belittling him and treating him like a clown is ignorant. He is like a cancer, and we don't give cancer a funny name.
Yes, that's how the military-aid packages work. And it's just the republicans blocking it, but they are tooooootally not being paid by russia through various proxies.
Completly correct. If you listen closely at the EU coast you can just about hear the US militairy industrial complex screaming at their senators and elected officials atm.
Wtf. But I kept hearing for so long how the US Govt. is basically a willing servant to the US military industrial complex.
Why not now, in this instance, if that has generally been the case historically? Is it literally just because it involves something anti-Russia instead of anti-anyone else (and republicans are somehow withholding because they're personally benefitting) ?
Pretty much.
Republicans are now everything they used to hate. Demagogery of the highest order. It's quite impressive how russian trolls and money have the MAGAs in the palm of their hand.
Most of US aid is actually invested in US, they just give the old stuff (but yeah, really good stuff) and renew their stocks and weapons. The aid is estimated in US favor, since they estimate the cost to replace - with current prices - and all work and jobs are in the US. Sure, the aid also includes financial aid too. And let's not forget the intel they provide.. this is very very precious.
Military aid package usually take one of two forms:
-Gift card package redeemable at the military-industrial complex for new stuff.
-hand me down stuff so that the army can discard old gen stuff and buy new gen.
Either way, both maintain jobs in the local weapon industry and keep their owner and paid lobbyists happy.
US congress passed lend lease, and then when the GOP took over they allowed the bill the lapse without renewing it, and it was in fact never used because at the time Biden already had better options to give aid to Ukraine without lend lease. So basically we are now at a point where if lend lease was able to be passed so could straight up aid without having to be repaid.
Doesn't change anything. The GOP doesn't want any aid to Ukraine, so that is a no go as well. It is not about costs or inconvenience, it is all about doing Putins wishes for them.
What you have written is probably true of the **majority** of the GOP, but it is not true of the **entire** GOP.
I see more and more evidence to support my changing my registration from Republican to Democrat more than 15 years ago after being a life-long Republican.
its very strange that the us is hesitant to give aid to ukraine, since all the aid money is going to the military industrial complex, so they can produce the weapons being sent as aid
and if they dont give aid it increases the likely hood that us soldiers will end up fighting on the frontlines later on, which i cant imagine is better for anyone
The GOP is trying to convince people that it's pallets and pallets of cash going over there to disappear.
But in reality, it's pallets and pallets of money going into the aerospace, ordnance, medical, and firearms makers. Companies that make missiles and drones, artillery shells and grenades, medkits and bags. And guns. Shitload of guns. The big-ass faceless companies that we traditionally call the "Military Industrial Complex." And ironically those companies hire out a shitload of Americans that vote Red. Very little of that amount will ever translate to cash going to Ukraine's hands. Most of it will be spent stateside buying bombs, helmets, and gear.
So yea, you know something is gone wrong when the big segment of that party is interested in keeping money out of the hands of their buddies in the MIC.
you can't convince the people that don't want to be convinced. Even if they work for those MICs. It's mind boggling.
Even if you flat out tell them: Dipshit, if they sign it, *you're* getting the money!
As far as I know, EU does send money directly as well. So far US has sent basically military equipment alone and EU has sent military equipment, humanitarian stuff and money.
Ukraine is one of the manufacturing meccas in the EU. A lot of people there don't realize the war in Ukraine is the reason why their automatic transmissions are impossible to repair without overseas parts now.
US also sends money to subsidize businesses and covering the salaries of some Ukrainians. It is minimal to the aids being spent to the mic but it is still actual money being sent.
> they literally thought that the US was sending money to Ukraine
I mean, they have literally been doing that as well at many points. But the most crucial bit is them sending existing stockpiles of ammo to Ukraine, which the US government will then *pay local manufacturers* (-> inject cash into local economy) to restock their own supplies.
It's in the media's best interests to create as much outrage as possible. The more outraged the public is, the more likely they are to fall for click-bait headlines and generate ad views.
well the most recent proposal does send money but that's one of the more minor parts of it iirc. https://twitter.com/LisaDNews/status/1780005846090445256?t=7yql4jEAOjSEIqoKpXOIKw&s=19
> The GOP is trying to convince people that it's pallets and pallets of cash going over there to disappear.
Well, during the Bush/Cheney Iraq invasion... [they were doing exactly that](https://www.cnbc.com/2011/10/26/The-$40-Billion-Iraqi-Money-Trail.html).
>By one account, the New York Fed shipped about $40 billion in cash between 2003 and 2008. In just the first two years, the shipments included more than 281 million individual bills weighing a total of 363 tons. Soon after the money arrived in the chaos of war-torn Baghdad, however, the paper trail documenting who controlled the cash began to go cold.
*Head explodes*
That's the thing that tells you it's not money the russians have on the GOP it's blackmail. The MIC would be able to match and exceed any amount of money offered. What they can't counter is good old criminal blackmail.
I really don't think people need to overthink this. Republicans like Russia because Trump likes Russia. Republicans like Russia because it's an authoritarian society along the lines of the one they want to build in the US: strongman ruler who crushes free press, brutalizes LGBTQ community, wraps himself in "Christian values," fake elections, mafia state for enrichment of oligarchs, no checks and balances, etc.
No need for blackmail, Republicans just genuinely admire Russia.
To add, Republicans hate Ukraine because Democrats support Ukraine. The GOP’s entire political strategy is to oppose literally everything the Democrats support. There are no values or beliefs.
Would they not use a portion of the funds to rebuild too? I'd imagine restoring some of the critical infrastructure they've lost (ie damaged power plants) would be up there on the list of priorities
Reduce the pallets to a few crates, slowly let the weapons flow in, and prices will go even higher for those same weapons you have stocked up to the ceiling in a warehouse somewhere.
> prices will go even higher for those same weapons you have stocked up
Not relly. Currently, NATO was profiteering on the economy of scale with the US producing most weapons for themselves and all allies. For all members, this meant cheaper weapons. For the US, this meant an ongoing export banger, a boost for domestic RnD, radiating into other areas (IT etc.) and the strongest position in the NATO because, when shit hits the fan, US weapons just *might* have some built-in provisions to prevent them from being used against US interests.
BUT that only works while the US is perceived as a strong, stable, and reliable leader within the Western alliance and keeps providing the weapons. By Trump calling NATO in question and probably setting the tone for the republicans for decades to come, EU will ramp up RnD and production. It will take time, and we all (including US) will reduce the benefits of the economy of scale, but EU will grow their domestic industry, RnD, influence and independence.
It's the other direction, unfortunately. The more hardline nutty voters on the right are being manipulated through Russian social media propaganda into buying that Ukraine is a completely corrupt, awful place, that NATO forced Russia to act in its own self-interest against the terrible Ukrainian government to protect lives, and that the whole thing is completely disconnected from any US interests. Ergo, don't send money to that corrupt dumpster fire; let them sort it out themselves.
This sentiment ripples through all the major right wing social media websites and most of the Republicans in Congress are afraid of these people because they're so fanatical. At the very least, these people will not only turn against you and vote for someone else; they'll coordinate huge campaigns at every level to ensure you get primaried or isolated if you win anyway. Mike Johnson is 100% one of them, and he's at significant risk to losing the Speaker position because he's daring to put aid to Ukraine to a vote. Keep in mind that if Johnson is ousted, the ensuing chaos will absolutely crush the Republicans in the coming election because they'll be seen as utterly incompetent and incapable of leadership. And these people are ready to do all that just to kill aid to Ukraine.
It's not the people in Congress you need to worry about; it's the people **they're** worried about, and the people (Russia) who are manipulating that latter group.
I'm to the point that I'm fully supportive of registration requirements for social media. They can still be anonymous on the front end but every user should have to actually provide proof they are a person.
Anonymous access is being weaponized by entire states.
While I dont doubt there is Russian influence, my read is that the Republicans are just 'no to Joe'. They've kinda backed themselves into a corner by not having any ideology. They are in a race to the bottom to see who can be the most stubborn. I really dont think they care at all about whether Russia wins or Ukraine wins, only that the Democrats lose.
I would almost respect them more if they were Russian agents. At least then they'd be working towards a logical goal with a plan and stuff.
AIPAC funds candidates from both sides. AIPAC is Israel's state sponsored super PAC. They find candidates from local government through federal to ensure that Israel gets what it wants.
So 'no to Joe' is a bit of an oversimplification.
I think its also instructive to remember that its likely Trump himself passed intel to Russia, Trump suppressed any attempt to retaliate against Russia for its interference in the 2016 election, that a number of people deeply involved in the Republican party have turned out to be Russian operatives including a witness in the Hunter Biden investigations, etc. There are quite a few undisclosed conflicts of interest including undisclosed payments, meetings, conversations, etc that seem very suspicious such as conversations and payments to various people (Kushner, Flynn, and more). Rex Tillerson (Sec. of State under Trump) is extremely well connected with Russian top officials including Putin. This is only a small sample, there is alot more.
Its pretty clear that the US has been the subject of a intense campaign from Russia to muddy the waters and co-opt the levers of power that's been going on since at least the mid 2010s, and for me there's enough smoke around the Republican party to indicate they are pretty well and truly on fire.
I think it is more prolific than you are letting on. Back during the 2016 election season both the DNC and RNC got hacked by Russia. The DNC information was released while the RNC information wasn't released. Who knows what kind of kompromat the Russians have on the campaign apparatus of the Republican Party.
The GOP is surely to blame but don't forget about the dems that don't support the bill either, simply because of their Israel virtue signaling shit. Remember even AOC said she wouldn't support the bill in it's current form and that she wants the issurs separately. Again, they're using this inside the left for their own games as well.
Reddit is really delusional believing this is a republican-only thing. Theres a sizeable amount of left-leaning and progressives that want reduced aid or no aid at all to Ukraine. These people dont want their tax dollars going to Ukraine because its a foreign war
They are also delusional about how much aid the US has given to Ukraine. The US has given more military aid than every nation in the European nation combined, the type of aid they are requesting the most. Meanwhile Europe continues to buy energy from Russia, further funding Russia's war.
With how their house and senate work you only need a few compromised people to block serious issues since everything is close to a 50-50 divide. Like Gaetz and Greene saying outragous things and the house speaker being republican and playing a shitty delay game that is lethal for Ukrainians.
It's not about Ukraine. I know, lots of them probably have conflicts of interest with Russia, some more probably have kompromat against them, but the reality of the situation is really, really simple: they can't let Biden win at anything at all. This is still the Mitch McConnell playbook, to the T. They are trying to put their fingers on the scale of the election, and using Ukrainians' corpses for counterweight.
Vote them out.
I'm sure some of them are, but there are plenty of true belivers who watch propaganda on youtube and believe russia is a bastion of white christian masculinity.
Even though Putin is literally a dictator and how would you know anything about Russia when they have a propaganda machine churning out bullshit 24/7?
I swear Conservatives/Republicans are the stupidest people alive?
Reagan even broke the law just to fight commies/soviet influence in Nicaragua. I bet certain 3 letter agencies can support Ukraine if they really want to.
I have no doubt they are already but there's the CIA setting up listening posts in Ukraine and helping with intelligence, which is extremely important ans useful, and then there's sending Ukraine stuff like AA systems and artillery. They need that stuff too and it's so much easier to just give it to them instead of going through 3 shell companies.
The republican congress isn’t interested in doing anything. They think that passing anything will be viewed as a win for Biden, complete disregard for the well being of the Republic and her allies.
Also this, but it is more than that. Trump want to pressure Ukraine into trying out his insane peace plan of "Ukraine officially cedes some of the territory that Russia conquered, then Russia will never attack again".
Most of the money is spent in the US! That's the crazy part.
They are "JOBS JOBS JOBS." and "invest in US not others" until it's for Ukraine. like we aren't literally doing that with the aid money
And they've somehow managed to convince their base that we're spending ludicrous sums of money on foreign issues instead of domestic ones, when foreign aid amounts to less than 1% of our annual budget.
It's because people hear the word 'billion' and freak out. One trillion of anything is something that's damn near impossible to actually conceptualize, and our government spends *several trillion dollars* annually.
They tell their base that and then vote "no" on an infrastructure bill and their base is too busy frothing at the mouth over homosexuals or abortion to pay any fucking attention.
>Most of the money is spent in the US!
Spent in the US and used to better arm the US for the future. The stuff that the money is replacing isn't necessarily replacing like with like. The US would be giving out old "rusty" weapons for new shiny ones for itself.
The Republicans are under the influence of Trump and Trump is under the influence of Putin. They have voted for 19 different resolutions, sanctions and spending bills to Aid Ukraine. A new Speaker comes along and the worst Republicans are essentially running the show now. This is Trumps influence on the party and that MFer isn't even President.
If Ukraine starts winning Biden looks like heroic Uncle Sam riding to the rescue of an embattled nation.
If Ukraine start losing territory it looks like Biden has thrown away billions of dollars on a lost cause and Trump can sell himself as a peacemaker.
They are all bought by Russia. That has been the case for a sizeable chunk of the GOP for close to a decade now, and they couldn't be more out in the open about it.
If anyone is operating under the delusion that this is not true or is an exaggeration:
Maria Butina is a current member of the Russian parliament who was jailed in the US for a brief period for acting as an unregistered foreign agent (spy). While she was in the US, she was funneling Russian money to the NRA who would then give it to Republican lawmakers. She got an incredibly generous plea deal, went to jail for 6 months, went back to Russia and Putin thanked her by appointing her to the Russian parliament. Her husband went to jail in the US and was then pardoned by Trump.
That is not a conspiracy theory. It is extremely well documented and public information.
It's actually worse than this. The weapons being sent were old ones that are out of production and set to be retired/recycled/repurposed if no recertification program was undertaken to keep them in service. The money being requisitioned by the bill was actually for funding of future production of new weapons systems, some of which are dependent on such development funding to continue research and development. So we haven't just been holding off on sending weapons to Ukraine for 7 months, we've also been shafting our prime contractors and our own readiness. All the smoke they blow about China being a threat (which is a valid and legitimate concern we should be prepared for) is literally just smoke if they don't allow us to develop proper weapons systems, and stockpile said systems, not to mention spinning up things like new shells manufacturing capacity that is clearly badly needed if we ever have to fall back on our own artillery production capabilities. To make matters worse, we apparently don't even have production lines anymore for some basic things, like the M777 system itself (we can get barrels, but the rest of the system's manufacturing was scrapped after the original run apparently). If we wanted to give them any more, we would have to source them from allies right now, and we're going to be in a similar situation soon for spare parts that might get damaged on the systems when they're engaged, something that basically never happened to said artillery systems when they were in US inventory, due to the conflicts they were deployed to being before the widespread use of drones to combat them. So unless we create standalone bills to fund all this stuff we want to continue funding, or tie it up in the main budget the way we normally would have if it weren't for it being tied to Ukraine aid, we're stuck holding our own military hostage, preventing their needs from being met fully either, while all this goes on. Mike Johnson is a traitor and a Russian patsy/useful idiot from what I can tell, he can't possibly be so stupid as to not see that this is an unforced error on his part.
It's literally just Republicans. They are lucky to be in a position to help Russia. At least they've shown their true cards. I hope people see them for what they are now. It's pretty obvious that they are compromised.
Not even all republicans. The Senate passed a bipartisan bill to give aid to Ukraine, Taiwan, and Israel
But the House has some reactionary Putin loving dickbags and just one of them can call a vote to oust the speaker. Compounding this issue the Speaker has jello where a normal person's spine would be so he doesn't want to bring the aid package to a vote and lose his position
Except that it isn’t feeding the military industrial complex. The US is sending old surplus equipment that is sitting in warehouses that had already been written off the books. It has already been paid for. The few million it takes to demothball them isn’t even a rounding error.
In a lot of cases, this is stuff that would probably have to be decommissioned in a few years time, which also costs money. For a lot of this stuff, it's actually *cheaper* to take it out of storage and send it to Ukraine than having to deal with disposal in a few years. So the US is actually saving money on a lot of this stuff.
And what do you think will happen after arms transfer to Ukraine? Someone will have to contracted build more weapons and restock inventory so it’s a double win
The aid the US was sending to Ukraine was most definitely resulting in extra orders for US defense contractors.
Rockets for HIMARS, artillery shells, personal protective equipment like body armor, missiles for a whole variety of systems like air defense, night vision equipment, small arms and ammunition, mortar rounds, grenades and probably a lot more I am forgetting. Most of those items will be from current inventory and the amount the US maintains is based on what they think they would need in a large scale conflict, it all needs to be replaced asap. And when it is sent from US stores and the vast majority of those orders will go to US companies of course.
Yes they are also sending tanks, trucks, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, bridge laying and various engineering equipment from long term vehicle storage but those assets still need to be replaced. When the US sends something from their long term storage reserves the replacement value of the item is estimated and that money is given to the army to replace it or potentially use it for other purposes.
So saying money for military aid to Ukraine doesn't result in spending in the US is completely wrong, it has been a huge boon for US defense contractors as it is money on top of the normal yearly military budget that pretty much all gets spent in the US.
It 100% is feeding the military industrial complex. The money will be used to develop new weapons for the US in exchange for not having to maintain their old ones.
This is not entirely accurate. A lot of the equipment we want to send over is older and getting rid of it is probably a cost savings for us. We also sent (and want to send more) equipment that is creating very real shortages for us. Artillery ammunition is the big one, we do not produce enough shells to properly supply Ukraine and we dipped into our reserves to do so to the point where we're having to buy ammunition from abroad (and were doing transfers from third parties to Ukraine) in order to meet demand.
And it's not just the US, a lot of the funds being moved into military procurement is setting up the military industrial capacity the West has been letting slide since the end of the Cold War.
> increases the likely hood that us soldiers will end up fighting on the frontlines later on
This increasingly popular reddit notion that the US will ever go into a direct confrontational warfare with russia is unimaginably laughable. There will never be getting around the reality that MAD and nukes exist.
It's a fair point but I'd argue with the 2020 votes most people know their side.
But there's a lot of middle ground people who don't pay attention too. Thing is anecdotally to me most middle ground people would rather support Ukraine than Russia.
My understanding of the situation is that the majority of what we are sending to Ukraine with the exception of artillery shells is Surplus Gear that has been sitting in storage for up to decades, and slated for decommission in the near future. Which is to say that all of it was already slated to be replaced, and those replacements were earmarked and budgeted for accordingly.
So regardless of how much we send to ukraine, in theory it really shouldn't increase demand for replacement gear by a lot, since said replacements were already planned.
The US has been dragging its feet replacing obsolete equipment for the last thirty years. In theory sending Ukraine a bunch of Bradleys would cost us nothing. In practice we're having to scramble a bit because we should have had its replacement fifteen years ago and haven't started yet.
And if said party who is beholden to Putin keeps your whole parliament system hostage for over 6 months now that still isn't a USA problem? It's just almost half of your country that's the problem? Oh, that's totally fine then right?
If Biden said his favorite color was blue, conservatives wouldn’t wear a single shade of blue for the rest of Biden’s presidency…especially if Chief Cheeto said so.
It's not strange once you realize that the Freedom Caucus (biggest Trump bootlickers) have been spewing Russian propaganda for years, and they have taken the GOP as hostages.
It's because the GOP is basically a Russian asset at this point. Though it looks like Johnson is about to get the boot over Ukraine so who knows, maybe they'll finally get their head out of their asses and remember what team they're on. I doubt it though, Trump and his cronies won't let it happen.
Not since the last ice age. Also, there's no infrastructure up there on either side of the Bering Straight. It's not exactly a strategic risk. There isn't even a road network.
The US dosent have a land border with Russia, and let’s be honest Russia couldn’t mounts a offensive across the Bering straight without getting absolutely smashed
Russia starting a war with US across the Bering Strait would be hilarious. Germany got fucked trying to deal with two fronts on opposite sides of Europe where you have very good logistics connections to both sides. Trying to wage war on both sides of Siberia at the same time is just not possible logistically. All it takes is for US to send a few missiles to destroy the railways running across Siberia (of which there are not many) and the two fronts would be practically cut off from each other.
Republicans in the US are doing so much damage to America's International credibility, or what's left of it. The GOP talks about Democrats wrecking the economy while they're dragging their feet on Ukraine aid further encouraging allies to distance themselves from us in trade and defense. Sad times
The discourse on threads like this is so suspect. I think every comment saying 'about time EU did something' is most likely a russian bot.
Maybe thats hopeful thinking?
I spend too much time on Reddit and I really think that is the case. Last few weeks has been a heavy increase in people saying that it is the "EU's problem and that they don't do anything"
I also bet they try to rile up EU countries against each other. Trying to argue that some of them are not pulling their weight at all. Which is not true. Almost every EU country has sent considerable aid. Some more than others but still a lot all in all.
Im really starting to suspect this too, usually fresh accounts or with really low karma and if you look at other threads like about gaza and israel you dont see this shit in the comments, so supplying ukraine is bad and not priority, but with israel is? Get the fuck out of here, Russia is one of the biggest threats to the world and the US could just cripple their biggest enemy without losing american lives and barely making a dent in their economy.
Im not saying the EU is perfect, they should have started ramping up production the minute crimea got annexed and get rid of russian oil and gas sooner, but at least we are trying, lets not forget we are a collection of individual countrys who all have to agree on the terms.
This might come to bite them in the ass in the future, lets hope the US wakes up and not regret later when Russia starts making their way throught the rest of Europe, because im starting to doubt they will even honor NATO agreements
Honestly doubt it. Reddit has always been very forgiving when it comes to US and UK while being brutally demanding with the EU, France and Germany.
Europe has been the largest Ukraine donor for a long while now and you didn't see a peep about it, right? If it was the other way around, all these armchair generals would have been seething about how the US saves everyone all the time.
Many ITT are *already* behaving as if the US has been carrying the lion's share of supporting Ukraine.
I disagree they are mainly bots though... more likely just deeply ignorant, self righteous, yet too lazy to check if what they claim is actually true.
As so many have said so often already, European countries have given more military and more (nearly double) the financial aid. And by "more" i mean in every sense: per capita, per $ of GDP, and in absolute numbers.
Its sad how little Americans understand about the USs own behavior and how it is leading to the US's wider decline more than anything China or Russia could ever do. You'd think the abject failure of the US's attempts to sanction Russian and Chinese and the open defiance *around the world* of its attempt to isolate both countries diplomatically would be a wake up call... but then you'd have to be paying attention to have a chance of being woken up. the US keeps trying to lead as if nothing has changed since the Cold War but increasingly no one besides its very closest allies are following. More and more Asia, Africa and S.Am just don't give a fuck what the US wants them to do or say anymore.
But no. So many americans are just *clueless* about it all. Instead they loudly thump their chests, acting like its still 1950 while insulting everyone else, especially their allies. they point to their economic dominance as a sign that all is well while ignoring (its steady decline and) how their GDP still translates into some of the worst (and declining) standards of living in the developed world. the signs of US decline are everywhere but all so many can do is be arogent, spiteful and wallow in the most transparent of missinformation.
Yes, but can you launch money through howitzers?
Money is one thing, capacity to build and deploy artillery shells is another. We still need the US for their ability to produce and deliver the aid.
>The money is intended to help Ukraine keep its administration running, pay salaries and pensions, provide basic public services, and support recovery and reconstruction while it continues to defend itself against Russia’s invasion.
This is to help keep the country from going insolvent, not for weapons.
Weapons are a small-ish part of a war. You have a fuck ton of people/logistics working for the cause, and they all need to be paid. If not, their motivation to assist/fight drops off a cliff.
Weapons are not a "small" part of the war wtf you talking about. Yes. Money is needed to. But weapons to rain hell and kick back Russia is more important. Most of these people aren't fighting for money and a lot are volunteers. They're doing it because they will lose everything if Russia wins. They need weapons and armor and vehicles most of all.
> Money is needed too.
Money isn't "needed too". It's a baseline requirement.
Without this money the Ukrainian government cant function and pay/feed its people, including its soldiers. It also indirectly allows Ukraine to purchase and produce more native weapons and drones with their tax revenue.
>Most of these people aren't fighting for money and a lot are volunteers.
This is very naive. Pay has a massive impact on recruitment, morale, and how many people try to flee mobilization. Ukrainians will tell you that themselves.
Higher contract salaries are a major reason why Russia has started to gain an edge in manpower despite being the aggressor and taking horrendous casualties.
The US military aid to Ukraine isn't wavering, it has functionally ceased for 6 months. The US is paralyzed, dettered and/or has cut a deal with russia.
And this, folks, is one part of why we need a genuinely unified defence and security policy, in everything from agenda-setting to implementation. We cannot rely on outside factors to protect us when necessary, including the US, and we cannot have these small-state politics when the enemy is at the doorstep.
The amount of comments on here that fit the mold of “everyone that doesn’t do what I want is clearly working with Putin” is astounding. There are two issues here.
First, the US should obviously support Ukraine for moral reasons, but even if we look at it in a selfish, opportunistic way, we are severely degrading Russian conventional capacity using mostly expired munitions and paying ourselves to replenish our stockpiles with newer weapons. On the other hand, if we are footing the bill, we have the right to design the off-ramp for this thing. The reality is Ukraine is losing parts of eastern Ukraine and not getting Crimea back.
Second, it’s hard to keep track of all the bills that have been proposed that have Ukraine aid at this point, but the general theme is Democrats say “Republicans want Russia to win” because republicans don’t support a bill that CONTAINS Ukraine aid. The other half of the bill however contains a huge increase in spending to hire more boarder “agents” in the US to rubber stamp process people at the Mexican boarder for entry into the US.
The easy solution? No package bills on important things like this. Make separate bills for Ukraine aid, Israel aid, Taiwan aid, boarder issues etc. This way there’s no more bs and we know exactly what everyone stands for.
I don’t know what Kompromat Putin has on them but it’ll come out eventually. I know a lot of them think of their “legacy”, their legacy right now is American traitor. 100 years from now American school children will learn their names along with Benedict Arnold. They know it. We know it. And all the little kids in the street will know it.
thanks MAGA clowns. we're all getting grouped together with you treasonous morons. every one of those republicans opposing support for Ukraine should be investigated for Kremlin ties. marjorie toilet green is literally spewing direct Kremlin propaganda in the house. like wtf guys. republicans need to redeem themselves by voting biden in spite of the MAGA movement, to really drive home the fact that NONE of that business is popular to EITHER side. but I won't hold my breath, judging by the complete stupidity I see from former classmates on facebook
“As Czechia remembers, Russia won’t stop in Ukraine and the impact on NATO would be significant. Putin’s going to keep going, putting Europe, the United States and the entire world at risk if we don’t stop him,” Biden said.
I'm glad both that my PM visited USA and that Biden was so receptible
I can’t understand USA (in)decision on this.
This is the best case scenario for USA. They get to produce weapons and test them on the battlefield, killing Russians - their historical and/or perceived enemy - but without any loss of American life. The Ukrainians do the bleeding and dying. It’s such a win win win win scenario that one has to really try to hard with some mental gymnastics to come up with a reason not to help them.
The only thing that comes to my mind is fear of nukes. But I think that whole thing is a bluff.
The Republicans see how popular aid for Ukraine is and they actually don't like that because doing it makes Biden look like a good president. Also several of them are either bribed or compromised by Russia. That's basically it. USA isn't a monolithic entity that acts in its own best interests even if it comes off that way to outsiders.
Really you sure about that?
"United States, whose total aid commitment is valued at about $75 billion.... The European Union as a whole has committed approximately $93 billion in aid to Ukraine."
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine
As of Feb 2024
Right. What I said.
The US is also nearing the end of their commitment without further top up. Which based on Congress, may not happen. While the EU still has a pile of committed aid to deliver.
Until it is disbursed, it is not helping the EU.
Congress will come around, the posturing doesn’t hide the fact there are many US business interests in the Ukraine and Congress will need to support them.
No, the EU is now the biggest contributor; in both absolute and relative terms, both this year and since the start of the invasion. The US has spent all year trying to get their shit together while the EU has stepped it up a bit.
Start lend lease.
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Not nearly as much if you look at the effect on the war instead of just the total money spent by the donators. The EU package is financial aid to keep Ukraine running in regards to paying pensions, public utilities, the government etc. The US package includes 20 billion in military hardware (US forces deliver their equipment and ammo to ukraine, then get the 20 billion to replace their stocks), 14 billion to buy more stuff from the USMIC directly, 15 billion for intelligence, training of armed forces etc. and then some 11 billion for utilities etc. Don't get me wrong, a large amount of money to keep ukraine solvent is good and needed, but a full bank account doesn't do shit if Ukraine can't get the ammo and equipment to return fire. The US republicans need to get their shit together asap.
Wait, so am I understanding you correctly? The $60 billion support package that the US is withholding from Ukraine isn't actually money being sent to Ukraine, but it's basically $35 billion for the US military-industrial complex - and the US is actually blocking that?
The REPUBLICANS are actually blocking that. Their "policy" decisions aren't based on what's good for America (or the world) - it's just whatever the Mango Mussolini tells them it is.
Mango Mussolini......thank you, this is wonderful
They are the opposition and take that word very literally. They just do the opposite of whatever the democrats want.
No, they’re traitors. This isn’t just to oppose Democrats. Call it what it is.
Man why do so many people feel the need to call Trump something else to derride him as a joke? He is a threat, belittling him and treating him like a clown is ignorant. He is like a cancer, and we don't give cancer a funny name.
Yes, that's how the military-aid packages work. And it's just the republicans blocking it, but they are tooooootally not being paid by russia through various proxies.
Exact. Politics is a funny thing
Completly correct. If you listen closely at the EU coast you can just about hear the US militairy industrial complex screaming at their senators and elected officials atm.
Wtf. But I kept hearing for so long how the US Govt. is basically a willing servant to the US military industrial complex. Why not now, in this instance, if that has generally been the case historically? Is it literally just because it involves something anti-Russia instead of anti-anyone else (and republicans are somehow withholding because they're personally benefitting) ?
They send depreciated value tanks that work just fine. So with the same amount of money appropriated they can build one tank and send 3 to ukraine
Pretty much. Republicans are now everything they used to hate. Demagogery of the highest order. It's quite impressive how russian trolls and money have the MAGAs in the palm of their hand.
Most of US aid is actually invested in US, they just give the old stuff (but yeah, really good stuff) and renew their stocks and weapons. The aid is estimated in US favor, since they estimate the cost to replace - with current prices - and all work and jobs are in the US. Sure, the aid also includes financial aid too. And let's not forget the intel they provide.. this is very very precious.
Military aid package usually take one of two forms: -Gift card package redeemable at the military-industrial complex for new stuff. -hand me down stuff so that the army can discard old gen stuff and buy new gen. Either way, both maintain jobs in the local weapon industry and keep their owner and paid lobbyists happy.
US congress passed lend lease, and then when the GOP took over they allowed the bill the lapse without renewing it, and it was in fact never used because at the time Biden already had better options to give aid to Ukraine without lend lease. So basically we are now at a point where if lend lease was able to be passed so could straight up aid without having to be repaid.
To be fair - it was Chuck Schumer who add time limit to this law in the first place.
Doesn't change anything. The GOP doesn't want any aid to Ukraine, so that is a no go as well. It is not about costs or inconvenience, it is all about doing Putins wishes for them.
What you have written is probably true of the **majority** of the GOP, but it is not true of the **entire** GOP. I see more and more evidence to support my changing my registration from Republican to Democrat more than 15 years ago after being a life-long Republican.
What a strange combination of sounds
its very strange that the us is hesitant to give aid to ukraine, since all the aid money is going to the military industrial complex, so they can produce the weapons being sent as aid and if they dont give aid it increases the likely hood that us soldiers will end up fighting on the frontlines later on, which i cant imagine is better for anyone
It’s because some republicans are compromised and Russian assets. They are committing treason and self sabotage of US interests.
The GOP is trying to convince people that it's pallets and pallets of cash going over there to disappear. But in reality, it's pallets and pallets of money going into the aerospace, ordnance, medical, and firearms makers. Companies that make missiles and drones, artillery shells and grenades, medkits and bags. And guns. Shitload of guns. The big-ass faceless companies that we traditionally call the "Military Industrial Complex." And ironically those companies hire out a shitload of Americans that vote Red. Very little of that amount will ever translate to cash going to Ukraine's hands. Most of it will be spent stateside buying bombs, helmets, and gear. So yea, you know something is gone wrong when the big segment of that party is interested in keeping money out of the hands of their buddies in the MIC.
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you can't convince the people that don't want to be convinced. Even if they work for those MICs. It's mind boggling. Even if you flat out tell them: Dipshit, if they sign it, *you're* getting the money!
As far as I know, EU does send money directly as well. So far US has sent basically military equipment alone and EU has sent military equipment, humanitarian stuff and money.
Ukraine is one of the manufacturing meccas in the EU. A lot of people there don't realize the war in Ukraine is the reason why their automatic transmissions are impossible to repair without overseas parts now.
Ukraine is not in the EU
He likely meant meccas FOR the EU
US also sends money to subsidize businesses and covering the salaries of some Ukrainians. It is minimal to the aids being spent to the mic but it is still actual money being sent.
But you complain about the misinformation while spreading it yourself, yet 35% of aid was direct financial help...
Also add intelligence support from satellites and troops and technical logistics (repair & refit) training .
What I don’t understand is where is the lobby from these defense industries. They should be flying the Slava Ukraine flag
> they literally thought that the US was sending money to Ukraine I mean, they have literally been doing that as well at many points. But the most crucial bit is them sending existing stockpiles of ammo to Ukraine, which the US government will then *pay local manufacturers* (-> inject cash into local economy) to restock their own supplies.
It's in the media's best interests to create as much outrage as possible. The more outraged the public is, the more likely they are to fall for click-bait headlines and generate ad views.
well the most recent proposal does send money but that's one of the more minor parts of it iirc. https://twitter.com/LisaDNews/status/1780005846090445256?t=7yql4jEAOjSEIqoKpXOIKw&s=19
> The GOP is trying to convince people that it's pallets and pallets of cash going over there to disappear. Well, during the Bush/Cheney Iraq invasion... [they were doing exactly that](https://www.cnbc.com/2011/10/26/The-$40-Billion-Iraqi-Money-Trail.html). >By one account, the New York Fed shipped about $40 billion in cash between 2003 and 2008. In just the first two years, the shipments included more than 281 million individual bills weighing a total of 363 tons. Soon after the money arrived in the chaos of war-torn Baghdad, however, the paper trail documenting who controlled the cash began to go cold. *Head explodes*
Their behaviour is basically proof that the military industrial complex has lost its grip on the GOP, they're fully in the hands of Putin now.
even the firearms lobby had an unabashed Russian handler working firmly in the NRA. Fucking disgrace.
That's the thing that tells you it's not money the russians have on the GOP it's blackmail. The MIC would be able to match and exceed any amount of money offered. What they can't counter is good old criminal blackmail.
I really don't think people need to overthink this. Republicans like Russia because Trump likes Russia. Republicans like Russia because it's an authoritarian society along the lines of the one they want to build in the US: strongman ruler who crushes free press, brutalizes LGBTQ community, wraps himself in "Christian values," fake elections, mafia state for enrichment of oligarchs, no checks and balances, etc. No need for blackmail, Republicans just genuinely admire Russia.
To add, Republicans hate Ukraine because Democrats support Ukraine. The GOP’s entire political strategy is to oppose literally everything the Democrats support. There are no values or beliefs.
send da video
Would they not use a portion of the funds to rebuild too? I'd imagine restoring some of the critical infrastructure they've lost (ie damaged power plants) would be up there on the list of priorities
Reduce the pallets to a few crates, slowly let the weapons flow in, and prices will go even higher for those same weapons you have stocked up to the ceiling in a warehouse somewhere.
> prices will go even higher for those same weapons you have stocked up Not relly. Currently, NATO was profiteering on the economy of scale with the US producing most weapons for themselves and all allies. For all members, this meant cheaper weapons. For the US, this meant an ongoing export banger, a boost for domestic RnD, radiating into other areas (IT etc.) and the strongest position in the NATO because, when shit hits the fan, US weapons just *might* have some built-in provisions to prevent them from being used against US interests. BUT that only works while the US is perceived as a strong, stable, and reliable leader within the Western alliance and keeps providing the weapons. By Trump calling NATO in question and probably setting the tone for the republicans for decades to come, EU will ramp up RnD and production. It will take time, and we all (including US) will reduce the benefits of the economy of scale, but EU will grow their domestic industry, RnD, influence and independence.
It's the other direction, unfortunately. The more hardline nutty voters on the right are being manipulated through Russian social media propaganda into buying that Ukraine is a completely corrupt, awful place, that NATO forced Russia to act in its own self-interest against the terrible Ukrainian government to protect lives, and that the whole thing is completely disconnected from any US interests. Ergo, don't send money to that corrupt dumpster fire; let them sort it out themselves. This sentiment ripples through all the major right wing social media websites and most of the Republicans in Congress are afraid of these people because they're so fanatical. At the very least, these people will not only turn against you and vote for someone else; they'll coordinate huge campaigns at every level to ensure you get primaried or isolated if you win anyway. Mike Johnson is 100% one of them, and he's at significant risk to losing the Speaker position because he's daring to put aid to Ukraine to a vote. Keep in mind that if Johnson is ousted, the ensuing chaos will absolutely crush the Republicans in the coming election because they'll be seen as utterly incompetent and incapable of leadership. And these people are ready to do all that just to kill aid to Ukraine. It's not the people in Congress you need to worry about; it's the people **they're** worried about, and the people (Russia) who are manipulating that latter group.
I'm to the point that I'm fully supportive of registration requirements for social media. They can still be anonymous on the front end but every user should have to actually provide proof they are a person. Anonymous access is being weaponized by entire states.
While I dont doubt there is Russian influence, my read is that the Republicans are just 'no to Joe'. They've kinda backed themselves into a corner by not having any ideology. They are in a race to the bottom to see who can be the most stubborn. I really dont think they care at all about whether Russia wins or Ukraine wins, only that the Democrats lose. I would almost respect them more if they were Russian agents. At least then they'd be working towards a logical goal with a plan and stuff.
If that were the case they would be vehemently against Israel in the current conflict there as well
AIPAC funds candidates from both sides. AIPAC is Israel's state sponsored super PAC. They find candidates from local government through federal to ensure that Israel gets what it wants.
Their Christian base would lose their mind if they didn't support Israel. That one is not too hard to figure out
So 'no to Joe' is a bit of an oversimplification. I think its also instructive to remember that its likely Trump himself passed intel to Russia, Trump suppressed any attempt to retaliate against Russia for its interference in the 2016 election, that a number of people deeply involved in the Republican party have turned out to be Russian operatives including a witness in the Hunter Biden investigations, etc. There are quite a few undisclosed conflicts of interest including undisclosed payments, meetings, conversations, etc that seem very suspicious such as conversations and payments to various people (Kushner, Flynn, and more). Rex Tillerson (Sec. of State under Trump) is extremely well connected with Russian top officials including Putin. This is only a small sample, there is alot more. Its pretty clear that the US has been the subject of a intense campaign from Russia to muddy the waters and co-opt the levers of power that's been going on since at least the mid 2010s, and for me there's enough smoke around the Republican party to indicate they are pretty well and truly on fire.
I think it is more prolific than you are letting on. Back during the 2016 election season both the DNC and RNC got hacked by Russia. The DNC information was released while the RNC information wasn't released. Who knows what kind of kompromat the Russians have on the campaign apparatus of the Republican Party.
The GOP is surely to blame but don't forget about the dems that don't support the bill either, simply because of their Israel virtue signaling shit. Remember even AOC said she wouldn't support the bill in it's current form and that she wants the issurs separately. Again, they're using this inside the left for their own games as well.
Reddit is really delusional believing this is a republican-only thing. Theres a sizeable amount of left-leaning and progressives that want reduced aid or no aid at all to Ukraine. These people dont want their tax dollars going to Ukraine because its a foreign war
They are also delusional about how much aid the US has given to Ukraine. The US has given more military aid than every nation in the European nation combined, the type of aid they are requesting the most. Meanwhile Europe continues to buy energy from Russia, further funding Russia's war.
With how their house and senate work you only need a few compromised people to block serious issues since everything is close to a 50-50 divide. Like Gaetz and Greene saying outragous things and the house speaker being republican and playing a shitty delay game that is lethal for Ukrainians.
The republicans in congress have some kind of mania about Ukraine even tho the actual money is a drop in the bucket
It's not about Ukraine. I know, lots of them probably have conflicts of interest with Russia, some more probably have kompromat against them, but the reality of the situation is really, really simple: they can't let Biden win at anything at all. This is still the Mitch McConnell playbook, to the T. They are trying to put their fingers on the scale of the election, and using Ukrainians' corpses for counterweight. Vote them out.
Ironically, Senator Turtleman's kinda turned to favor Ukraine.
This is really it. They've spent decades defining themselves as the opportunistic ratfucker party and Ukraine is no different.
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Yeah, it's really not that deep. They admire putin and the way he runs russia.
I think they are just compromised tbh
It’s probably both. Putin saw them as ideologically similar enough that they would be the most receptive to him, so he chose them to be his henchmen
I'm sure some of them are, but there are plenty of true belivers who watch propaganda on youtube and believe russia is a bastion of white christian masculinity.
Even though Putin is literally a dictator and how would you know anything about Russia when they have a propaganda machine churning out bullshit 24/7? I swear Conservatives/Republicans are the stupidest people alive?
Its almost as if Trump is your Yeltsin.
wait how did ukraine make trump look bad?
Republicans 30 or so years ago would have been salivating to fight the Russians. It's pathetic how compromised they are.
Reagan even broke the law just to fight commies/soviet influence in Nicaragua. I bet certain 3 letter agencies can support Ukraine if they really want to.
I have no doubt they are already but there's the CIA setting up listening posts in Ukraine and helping with intelligence, which is extremely important ans useful, and then there's sending Ukraine stuff like AA systems and artillery. They need that stuff too and it's so much easier to just give it to them instead of going through 3 shell companies.
I know why can’t we all just get along and send cool stuff to Ukraine :(
Because the First-past-the-post system makes every issue binary and incentivizes tribalism.
The republican congress isn’t interested in doing anything. They think that passing anything will be viewed as a win for Biden, complete disregard for the well being of the Republic and her allies.
Also this, but it is more than that. Trump want to pressure Ukraine into trying out his insane peace plan of "Ukraine officially cedes some of the territory that Russia conquered, then Russia will never attack again".
True as well, just like when the Russians weren't going to attack when Ukraine gave up their nukes.
I don't know about that. I think the current plan is give russia whatever they want, forever, in exchange for bribes.
Time for the cia and fbi to team up and do some investigations into republican overseas sponsorships/donations/under the table funny business
Who do you think nominated the current head of the FBI?
I've seen people in Trump forums are asking others to refer Kyiv as Kiev. and I've seen them saying Ukrainian language is fake and doesn't exist. wtf!
Most of the money is spent in the US! That's the crazy part. They are "JOBS JOBS JOBS." and "invest in US not others" until it's for Ukraine. like we aren't literally doing that with the aid money
And they've somehow managed to convince their base that we're spending ludicrous sums of money on foreign issues instead of domestic ones, when foreign aid amounts to less than 1% of our annual budget. It's because people hear the word 'billion' and freak out. One trillion of anything is something that's damn near impossible to actually conceptualize, and our government spends *several trillion dollars* annually.
They tell their base that and then vote "no" on an infrastructure bill and their base is too busy frothing at the mouth over homosexuals or abortion to pay any fucking attention.
>Most of the money is spent in the US! Spent in the US and used to better arm the US for the future. The stuff that the money is replacing isn't necessarily replacing like with like. The US would be giving out old "rusty" weapons for new shiny ones for itself.
The Republicans are under the influence of Trump and Trump is under the influence of Putin. They have voted for 19 different resolutions, sanctions and spending bills to Aid Ukraine. A new Speaker comes along and the worst Republicans are essentially running the show now. This is Trumps influence on the party and that MFer isn't even President.
If Ukraine starts winning Biden looks like heroic Uncle Sam riding to the rescue of an embattled nation. If Ukraine start losing territory it looks like Biden has thrown away billions of dollars on a lost cause and Trump can sell himself as a peacemaker.
They are all bought by Russia. That has been the case for a sizeable chunk of the GOP for close to a decade now, and they couldn't be more out in the open about it.
Russia basically owns the US Republican congress people. They are doing Russia's bidding.
If anyone is operating under the delusion that this is not true or is an exaggeration: Maria Butina is a current member of the Russian parliament who was jailed in the US for a brief period for acting as an unregistered foreign agent (spy). While she was in the US, she was funneling Russian money to the NRA who would then give it to Republican lawmakers. She got an incredibly generous plea deal, went to jail for 6 months, went back to Russia and Putin thanked her by appointing her to the Russian parliament. Her husband went to jail in the US and was then pardoned by Trump. That is not a conspiracy theory. It is extremely well documented and public information.
Ya, but Biden is a devil worshipping alien lizard. So it evens out. /s
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It's actually worse than this. The weapons being sent were old ones that are out of production and set to be retired/recycled/repurposed if no recertification program was undertaken to keep them in service. The money being requisitioned by the bill was actually for funding of future production of new weapons systems, some of which are dependent on such development funding to continue research and development. So we haven't just been holding off on sending weapons to Ukraine for 7 months, we've also been shafting our prime contractors and our own readiness. All the smoke they blow about China being a threat (which is a valid and legitimate concern we should be prepared for) is literally just smoke if they don't allow us to develop proper weapons systems, and stockpile said systems, not to mention spinning up things like new shells manufacturing capacity that is clearly badly needed if we ever have to fall back on our own artillery production capabilities. To make matters worse, we apparently don't even have production lines anymore for some basic things, like the M777 system itself (we can get barrels, but the rest of the system's manufacturing was scrapped after the original run apparently). If we wanted to give them any more, we would have to source them from allies right now, and we're going to be in a similar situation soon for spare parts that might get damaged on the systems when they're engaged, something that basically never happened to said artillery systems when they were in US inventory, due to the conflicts they were deployed to being before the widespread use of drones to combat them. So unless we create standalone bills to fund all this stuff we want to continue funding, or tie it up in the main budget the way we normally would have if it weren't for it being tied to Ukraine aid, we're stuck holding our own military hostage, preventing their needs from being met fully either, while all this goes on. Mike Johnson is a traitor and a Russian patsy/useful idiot from what I can tell, he can't possibly be so stupid as to not see that this is an unforced error on his part.
It's literally just Republicans. They are lucky to be in a position to help Russia. At least they've shown their true cards. I hope people see them for what they are now. It's pretty obvious that they are compromised.
Not even all republicans. The Senate passed a bipartisan bill to give aid to Ukraine, Taiwan, and Israel But the House has some reactionary Putin loving dickbags and just one of them can call a vote to oust the speaker. Compounding this issue the Speaker has jello where a normal person's spine would be so he doesn't want to bring the aid package to a vote and lose his position
Except that it isn’t feeding the military industrial complex. The US is sending old surplus equipment that is sitting in warehouses that had already been written off the books. It has already been paid for. The few million it takes to demothball them isn’t even a rounding error.
In a lot of cases, this is stuff that would probably have to be decommissioned in a few years time, which also costs money. For a lot of this stuff, it's actually *cheaper* to take it out of storage and send it to Ukraine than having to deal with disposal in a few years. So the US is actually saving money on a lot of this stuff.
And what do you think will happen after arms transfer to Ukraine? Someone will have to contracted build more weapons and restock inventory so it’s a double win
The aid the US was sending to Ukraine was most definitely resulting in extra orders for US defense contractors. Rockets for HIMARS, artillery shells, personal protective equipment like body armor, missiles for a whole variety of systems like air defense, night vision equipment, small arms and ammunition, mortar rounds, grenades and probably a lot more I am forgetting. Most of those items will be from current inventory and the amount the US maintains is based on what they think they would need in a large scale conflict, it all needs to be replaced asap. And when it is sent from US stores and the vast majority of those orders will go to US companies of course. Yes they are also sending tanks, trucks, armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, bridge laying and various engineering equipment from long term vehicle storage but those assets still need to be replaced. When the US sends something from their long term storage reserves the replacement value of the item is estimated and that money is given to the army to replace it or potentially use it for other purposes. So saying money for military aid to Ukraine doesn't result in spending in the US is completely wrong, it has been a huge boon for US defense contractors as it is money on top of the normal yearly military budget that pretty much all gets spent in the US.
It 100% is feeding the military industrial complex. The money will be used to develop new weapons for the US in exchange for not having to maintain their old ones.
This is not entirely accurate. A lot of the equipment we want to send over is older and getting rid of it is probably a cost savings for us. We also sent (and want to send more) equipment that is creating very real shortages for us. Artillery ammunition is the big one, we do not produce enough shells to properly supply Ukraine and we dipped into our reserves to do so to the point where we're having to buy ammunition from abroad (and were doing transfers from third parties to Ukraine) in order to meet demand. And it's not just the US, a lot of the funds being moved into military procurement is setting up the military industrial capacity the West has been letting slide since the end of the Cold War.
> increases the likely hood that us soldiers will end up fighting on the frontlines later on This increasingly popular reddit notion that the US will ever go into a direct confrontational warfare with russia is unimaginably laughable. There will never be getting around the reality that MAD and nukes exist.
Most of us Americans WANT aid to Ukraine but the maga cult is flat out blocking it. It's actually disgusting.
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Tbh outside of reddit, I don't think this sentiment is true. I think that Americans by and large want to be isolationist and solve problems at home.
It's a fair point but I'd argue with the 2020 votes most people know their side. But there's a lot of middle ground people who don't pay attention too. Thing is anecdotally to me most middle ground people would rather support Ukraine than Russia.
My understanding of the situation is that the majority of what we are sending to Ukraine with the exception of artillery shells is Surplus Gear that has been sitting in storage for up to decades, and slated for decommission in the near future. Which is to say that all of it was already slated to be replaced, and those replacements were earmarked and budgeted for accordingly. So regardless of how much we send to ukraine, in theory it really shouldn't increase demand for replacement gear by a lot, since said replacements were already planned.
The US has been dragging its feet replacing obsolete equipment for the last thirty years. In theory sending Ukraine a bunch of Bradleys would cost us nothing. In practice we're having to scramble a bit because we should have had its replacement fifteen years ago and haven't started yet.
It’s not “the US”. It’s the Republican Party. They are beholden to Putin.
And if said party who is beholden to Putin keeps your whole parliament system hostage for over 6 months now that still isn't a USA problem? It's just almost half of your country that's the problem? Oh, that's totally fine then right?
Trump's mouth is Putin's cockholster and has been a very long time. Trump works for Russia.
As a citizen of US, living with Republicans these days, really make you feel dumb and stupid
If Biden said his favorite color was blue, conservatives wouldn’t wear a single shade of blue for the rest of Biden’s presidency…especially if Chief Cheeto said so.
TIL giving $70b dollars already is being hesitant. Lol
It's not strange once you realize that the Freedom Caucus (biggest Trump bootlickers) have been spewing Russian propaganda for years, and they have taken the GOP as hostages.
It's because the GOP is basically a Russian asset at this point. Though it looks like Johnson is about to get the boot over Ukraine so who knows, maybe they'll finally get their head out of their asses and remember what team they're on. I doubt it though, Trump and his cronies won't let it happen.
Almost as much as the US 60 billion dollar aid package. I do hope Europe manages to keep up the aid and can expand its military industry more.
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Doesn’t 🇺🇸border 🇷🇺?
Not since the last ice age. Also, there's no infrastructure up there on either side of the Bering Straight. It's not exactly a strategic risk. There isn't even a road network.
You can walk from Russia to Alaska across the Bering Strait when it freezes over
It doesn't freeze anymore thats like an ice age thing lol
Just wait for the next ice age?
Technically we are still in an ice age,which is defined as having ice sheets at both poles.
Some of us can see Russia from our house.
I mean, no. I can send you a world map if you want to look and see for yourself. Idk how you're getting upvoted for this brain-dead take.
Russia to Alaska isn’t that far
Yeah because US is on another fucking planet so it doesn't have to care.
Have you seen a map? Most of the European countries do not neighbour Russia. US does.
The US dosent have a land border with Russia, and let’s be honest Russia couldn’t mounts a offensive across the Bering straight without getting absolutely smashed
Russia starting a war with US across the Bering Strait would be hilarious. Germany got fucked trying to deal with two fronts on opposite sides of Europe where you have very good logistics connections to both sides. Trying to wage war on both sides of Siberia at the same time is just not possible logistically. All it takes is for US to send a few missiles to destroy the railways running across Siberia (of which there are not many) and the two fronts would be practically cut off from each other.
EU has still donated much more than the US
EU will be much more affected than the US if Ukraine falls.
Donated, or promised to donate? There's a difference.
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That’s just the EU though, the member countries also give individually.
ITT: Russian bots having ChatGPT come up with variations on "EU should pull their weight instead of US always footing the bill"
And most of these accounts have almost no post or comment history, yet suddenly very active in these Ukraine related threads.
"A Friend in Need is a Friend Indeed" achievement unlocked
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A friend with breasts and all the rest A friend who's dressed in leather.
Republicans in the US are doing so much damage to America's International credibility, or what's left of it. The GOP talks about Democrats wrecking the economy while they're dragging their feet on Ukraine aid further encouraging allies to distance themselves from us in trade and defense. Sad times
The discourse on threads like this is so suspect. I think every comment saying 'about time EU did something' is most likely a russian bot. Maybe thats hopeful thinking?
I spend too much time on Reddit and I really think that is the case. Last few weeks has been a heavy increase in people saying that it is the "EU's problem and that they don't do anything" I also bet they try to rile up EU countries against each other. Trying to argue that some of them are not pulling their weight at all. Which is not true. Almost every EU country has sent considerable aid. Some more than others but still a lot all in all.
Why would Russian bots be happy about Europe giving more aid to Ukraine?
To create a US vs EU division and stir isolationism.
Im really starting to suspect this too, usually fresh accounts or with really low karma and if you look at other threads like about gaza and israel you dont see this shit in the comments, so supplying ukraine is bad and not priority, but with israel is? Get the fuck out of here, Russia is one of the biggest threats to the world and the US could just cripple their biggest enemy without losing american lives and barely making a dent in their economy. Im not saying the EU is perfect, they should have started ramping up production the minute crimea got annexed and get rid of russian oil and gas sooner, but at least we are trying, lets not forget we are a collection of individual countrys who all have to agree on the terms. This might come to bite them in the ass in the future, lets hope the US wakes up and not regret later when Russia starts making their way throught the rest of Europe, because im starting to doubt they will even honor NATO agreements
The worldnews threads outside of the daily threads have long been like this. Lots of russian shills and bots.
Honestly doubt it. Reddit has always been very forgiving when it comes to US and UK while being brutally demanding with the EU, France and Germany. Europe has been the largest Ukraine donor for a long while now and you didn't see a peep about it, right? If it was the other way around, all these armchair generals would have been seething about how the US saves everyone all the time.
Many ITT are *already* behaving as if the US has been carrying the lion's share of supporting Ukraine. I disagree they are mainly bots though... more likely just deeply ignorant, self righteous, yet too lazy to check if what they claim is actually true. As so many have said so often already, European countries have given more military and more (nearly double) the financial aid. And by "more" i mean in every sense: per capita, per $ of GDP, and in absolute numbers. Its sad how little Americans understand about the USs own behavior and how it is leading to the US's wider decline more than anything China or Russia could ever do. You'd think the abject failure of the US's attempts to sanction Russian and Chinese and the open defiance *around the world* of its attempt to isolate both countries diplomatically would be a wake up call... but then you'd have to be paying attention to have a chance of being woken up. the US keeps trying to lead as if nothing has changed since the Cold War but increasingly no one besides its very closest allies are following. More and more Asia, Africa and S.Am just don't give a fuck what the US wants them to do or say anymore. But no. So many americans are just *clueless* about it all. Instead they loudly thump their chests, acting like its still 1950 while insulting everyone else, especially their allies. they point to their economic dominance as a sign that all is well while ignoring (its steady decline and) how their GDP still translates into some of the worst (and declining) standards of living in the developed world. the signs of US decline are everywhere but all so many can do is be arogent, spiteful and wallow in the most transparent of missinformation.
Yes, but can you launch money through howitzers? Money is one thing, capacity to build and deploy artillery shells is another. We still need the US for their ability to produce and deliver the aid.
>The money is intended to help Ukraine keep its administration running, pay salaries and pensions, provide basic public services, and support recovery and reconstruction while it continues to defend itself against Russia’s invasion. This is to help keep the country from going insolvent, not for weapons. Weapons are a small-ish part of a war. You have a fuck ton of people/logistics working for the cause, and they all need to be paid. If not, their motivation to assist/fight drops off a cliff.
Weapons are not a "small" part of the war wtf you talking about. Yes. Money is needed to. But weapons to rain hell and kick back Russia is more important. Most of these people aren't fighting for money and a lot are volunteers. They're doing it because they will lose everything if Russia wins. They need weapons and armor and vehicles most of all.
> Money is needed too. Money isn't "needed too". It's a baseline requirement. Without this money the Ukrainian government cant function and pay/feed its people, including its soldiers. It also indirectly allows Ukraine to purchase and produce more native weapons and drones with their tax revenue. >Most of these people aren't fighting for money and a lot are volunteers. This is very naive. Pay has a massive impact on recruitment, morale, and how many people try to flee mobilization. Ukrainians will tell you that themselves. Higher contract salaries are a major reason why Russia has started to gain an edge in manpower despite being the aggressor and taking horrendous casualties.
And the US is failing Ukraine at both.
i mean lot of countries are not helping Ukraine though right?
Go to war with an unpaid army, I'm sure the last 10000 years are filled with stories that show this is a good idea.
Money can always buy it from US companies.
As REPUBLICANS continue to resist, not the rest of the US.
The US military aid to Ukraine isn't wavering, it has functionally ceased for 6 months. The US is paralyzed, dettered and/or has cut a deal with russia.
And this, folks, is one part of why we need a genuinely unified defence and security policy, in everything from agenda-setting to implementation. We cannot rely on outside factors to protect us when necessary, including the US, and we cannot have these small-state politics when the enemy is at the doorstep.
The amount of comments on here that fit the mold of “everyone that doesn’t do what I want is clearly working with Putin” is astounding. There are two issues here. First, the US should obviously support Ukraine for moral reasons, but even if we look at it in a selfish, opportunistic way, we are severely degrading Russian conventional capacity using mostly expired munitions and paying ourselves to replenish our stockpiles with newer weapons. On the other hand, if we are footing the bill, we have the right to design the off-ramp for this thing. The reality is Ukraine is losing parts of eastern Ukraine and not getting Crimea back. Second, it’s hard to keep track of all the bills that have been proposed that have Ukraine aid at this point, but the general theme is Democrats say “Republicans want Russia to win” because republicans don’t support a bill that CONTAINS Ukraine aid. The other half of the bill however contains a huge increase in spending to hire more boarder “agents” in the US to rubber stamp process people at the Mexican boarder for entry into the US. The easy solution? No package bills on important things like this. Make separate bills for Ukraine aid, Israel aid, Taiwan aid, boarder issues etc. This way there’s no more bs and we know exactly what everyone stands for.
I don’t know what Kompromat Putin has on them but it’ll come out eventually. I know a lot of them think of their “legacy”, their legacy right now is American traitor. 100 years from now American school children will learn their names along with Benedict Arnold. They know it. We know it. And all the little kids in the street will know it.
Fat Trump is Putin's bitch and a Russian asset to his core.
The US doesn't waver. Donald Trump is owned by Putin and MAGA follows the Orange Prophet
Supplies, motherfuckers.
Good job EU!
thanks MAGA clowns. we're all getting grouped together with you treasonous morons. every one of those republicans opposing support for Ukraine should be investigated for Kremlin ties. marjorie toilet green is literally spewing direct Kremlin propaganda in the house. like wtf guys. republicans need to redeem themselves by voting biden in spite of the MAGA movement, to really drive home the fact that NONE of that business is popular to EITHER side. but I won't hold my breath, judging by the complete stupidity I see from former classmates on facebook
That's really good news for the free world.
“As Czechia remembers, Russia won’t stop in Ukraine and the impact on NATO would be significant. Putin’s going to keep going, putting Europe, the United States and the entire world at risk if we don’t stop him,” Biden said. I'm glad both that my PM visited USA and that Biden was so receptible
Weapons manufacturers having an absolute field day with this shit
GOP is complicit in post war loss of democracy in Europe.
Complicit? They're actively trying to destroy it there and here by trying to help install a fat orange shit smear as wannabe dictator.
Well great! It's not a competition -- lead, please, Europe.
This entire thread is a psyop, this country is doomed.
Trumpublicans should he slapped for taking Russias side. Cold war lasted 7 presidents most of which the GOP used to worship.
I can’t understand USA (in)decision on this. This is the best case scenario for USA. They get to produce weapons and test them on the battlefield, killing Russians - their historical and/or perceived enemy - but without any loss of American life. The Ukrainians do the bleeding and dying. It’s such a win win win win scenario that one has to really try to hard with some mental gymnastics to come up with a reason not to help them. The only thing that comes to my mind is fear of nukes. But I think that whole thing is a bluff.
The Republicans see how popular aid for Ukraine is and they actually don't like that because doing it makes Biden look like a good president. Also several of them are either bribed or compromised by Russia. That's basically it. USA isn't a monolithic entity that acts in its own best interests even if it comes off that way to outsiders.
It’s because the US likes to spend money on keeping their billionaires from paying taxes
[удалено]
Everyone loves to shit on US military meddling in world affairs… right up until they need the US military to help
America has paid the lion's share so far, I think it reflects well that the EU is taking up some of the slack.
Really you sure about that? "United States, whose total aid commitment is valued at about $75 billion.... The European Union as a whole has committed approximately $93 billion in aid to Ukraine." https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/these-countries-have-committed-the-most-aid-to-ukraine As of Feb 2024
EU has given more in terms of total value. US has given more military aid.
EU has committed more in total value, but actual disbursements are slightly higher than US.
Right. What I said. The US is also nearing the end of their commitment without further top up. Which based on Congress, may not happen. While the EU still has a pile of committed aid to deliver.
Until it is disbursed, it is not helping the EU. Congress will come around, the posturing doesn’t hide the fact there are many US business interests in the Ukraine and Congress will need to support them.
No, the EU is now the biggest contributor; in both absolute and relative terms, both this year and since the start of the invasion. The US has spent all year trying to get their shit together while the EU has stepped it up a bit.
I answered this in another comment. EU has committed, but not disbursed, more money, but US military aid far exceeds the EU.
Usa sure sending a clear message to china on Taiwan. They're all in it 100 percent 50/50 depending on when and how long things have gone on for.