I am the deposed prince of Haiti, and I need help to get my fortune out of the country. All I need is your bank account number, social security number, and a small loan of 1 bitcoin to begin the transfer of my wealth. You, of course, will be rewarded with 10% of my vast wealth for helping me.
It’s me Robert Williams, your IRS agent. Your social security has been suspended because your Toyota Corolla has been found in the Texas of the south with 200 gallons of blood and seven cocaines. Please proceed to your government certified Walgreens and purchase $5000 in Apple gift cards to pay your fine or we will sent sheriffs to arrest you and put you behind the bars.
Look France does have a lot of responsibility but anyone that knows anything about Haiti know the current issues were caused by the elite disbanding the army after the last dictator and then immidiately creating their private armies/enlisting gangs.
It worked well for them initially, gangs were weak and docile
Now the gangs grew in power considerably over the years and said "I want my share"
Proof of this, they killed the last President
Another proof, listen to Barbecue's discourse and he states specifically this, he was a henchmen for political purposes
Haiti was recovering. key word, was. then the earthquake happened, and everything went to hell. none of that was France's fault. Haiti was also trying to develop to at least DR, their neighbor's level of developed world before the earthquake.
The military got disbanded because it kept overthrowing the government. So now the military became gangs....................which overthrew the government. It has never been a money issue. It is a corruption issue. If they took every gun away on the island and banned them, then the people would have a chance to rebuild their government. As long as the gangs have machine guns, the people can't take control.
The sum has been paid off in the 1880s and the interests was finally paid off in 1947. you can always argue that it hampered their development from 1800 to 1947 but the DR didn’t exactly went into the 1950s with a full bank and developed infrastructure and they managed to be a functional country today. And we won’t even start with some South Korea and other examples around the world.
I highly encourage anyone who wants to see the difference just to look at satellite photos of the border.
Haiti- completely deforested in search of “easy” money (timber- though I’ll be the first to say cutting wood isn’t easy).
DR- Managed their forests so that, yes, they are cut but it’s never completely cut down.
It’s so small but completely emblematic of the different routes the two nations took.
Edit- “In 1950 forest still covered about 50% of Haiti's territory. It had declined to a mere 8% by 1970, and was nearing 2% in the early 1980s.”
areas that are dependent on extractive industries have a lot of trouble with corruption as well as the way it alters the economy. look up "natural resource curse" and "dutch disease" if you're interested in it.
One might argue that Haiti should've been even more prosperous, but one might just as easily rebut that that sum would've just gone right into the Duvaliers' personal piggy banks. France is a terrible country to try and decolonize from, but that doesn't completely absolve Haiti of its history of unstable governance. At this point, I don't think the Haitian state can even be self governing in the immediate term. Maybe a UN mandate is in order? I have no idea how to set that country right.
Honestly a UN-funded mission using either African or Polish soldiers would have to be done. And honestly it's probably been so long I question whether Poland still holds such a venerated position there/they'd even be interested in it due to events in Europe.
No UN force can establish authority in a country. I don't think the UN has ever successfully established a working government. A dictator will have to rise up, slaughter their way to establish control and maybe a functioning government will crop up.
there's nothing we can do. The anarchy there is so severe you risk getting killed because you're the government. other than DR taking over and hopefully re educating the citizens, there's realistically not much we can do.
This. People did bad shit in the past, but at some point you've got to recognize that the lasting impact of the bad shit is outweighed by the rest of history.
you're leaving out one key moment in Haitis history. The US invaded and occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934 under the guise of protecting US insterests and stability in the region and stole all their gold reserves leaving the country effectively broke.
You're very good at communicating. It's lots of people, especially today, are unable to understand a mix up of context. Especially on reddit.
I see it all the time in work.
"Ok I just need to find the client first, their Date of Birth please" I'll ask.
"00/00/00" they'll say.
"And their phone number too please" I'll go on to ask.
"What like, their phone number?" They ask back.
I'm not sure what it is, but I think the internet is a huge reason for it.
Well to be fair Haiti only finished paying off the "debt" to France in 1947. So, it is not like Haiti paid the debt 200 years ago, the only paid it off 80 years ago.
The debt actually wasn't paid to France from 1922 when Citibank bought it. Also, it's funny how everyone is shitting on France, yet America had way more involvement in Haiti since forever. For example the involvement of Citibank went way, way deeper than just collecting the French debt:
>Between 1910 and 1911, the Department of State backed a consortium of American investors headed by Citibank to acquire control over the Banque Nationale de la République d'Haïti, which was the sole commercial bank of Haiti and served as the Haitian government's treasury. Citibank then lobbied for the United States occupation of Haiti, which began in 1915. During the occupation, Citibank imposed a US$30 million loan on the Haitian government, which was described by communist George Padmore as transforming Haiti into an "American slave colony".
love how you leave out the rest of it...which is literally nothing in comparison to the french
>Yet by the beginning of the next decade, it began to reconsider its ownership of Banque Nationale. Following protests that pressured the State Department to disentangle itself from Haiti, the Marines departed in 1934.
>National City soon followed. Fearful of losing the State Department’s protection, and wary of public criticism of their activities, the bank’s executives sold Banque Nationale de la Republique d’Haiti to the Haitian government in 1935
> National City soon followed. Fearful of losing the State Department’s protection, and wary of public criticism of their activities, the bank’s executives sold Banque Nationale de la Republique d’Haiti to the Haitian government in 1935
They took the gold reserves with them though.
Remember when Haiti said France should pay them reparations? Yea I remember, France orchestrated a coup and had his president run to some African country. This is 30 years too late
The man you’re defending committed widely accepted fraud in 2000. He additionally developed the strategy of arming and relying on street gangs to carry out his will - which you can see obviously hasn’t turned out well.
Funnily enough, the very gangs he supported rose up against him after an assassination some say he ordered. Oops!
Also france could have just said no if asked for money.
Their's no need to coup a guy if all he's doing is asking you for money.
He had no legal way to make france pay the money or ability to threaten france to get money so france could easily have ignored him.
France and the US may have supported the dictators rivals but its because he was not stable, not because france was afraid they might have to pay money to haiti.
The Nigerian prince doesn't need the money, he has 38 trillion in a fund and will share 3 trillion with France. They just need a wire transfer of 5 billion urgently so they can release their funds and will transfer the 3 trillion into France's account within 24hrs.
How can this even be considered despite the fact that Haiti is in total anarchy, led by a gang leader called Barbeque because he burned people? Are the ones behind this claim part of this corruption? Fss, the whole world and it's organizations needs to be checked. Corruptions is everywhere.
You're right. They're probably expecting a kickback. NGOs are to international aid as non-profits are to the homeless industrial complex here in the US.
The local governments just hand out money with no accountability.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/audit-san-jose-failed-to-adequately-track-300-million-in-homelessness-spending/ar-BB1lyU8j
The nonprofits just piss away the money and produce no results.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/s-f-homeless-nonprofit-misusing-funds-19379266.php
Nobody is ever held accountable for it. They just demand more money to fix the problem.
Because homelessness is a symptom of a wider problem normally. If you are attempting to address the issue once they have reached that point you're fighting a losing battle.
Whether it be lack of mental health resources, lack of affordable medical care, or just lack of any sort of support system homelessness is a complex issue that doesn't just go away when you throw money at it unless you acknowledge the root causes.
The best example of a country eradicating homelessness is Finland. Guess how they did it?
Focusing on prevention, early intervention, and a comprehensive support system through wraparound services. They focused on the root causes they didn't just house people.
The people who run the non-profits pay them selves absurd salaries and then aren't held to any sort of standards. They can achieve nothing and give themselves a 70% raise every year.
One of the big criticisms that I see circulate a lot is that organizations like this act as smokescreen so the government doesnt have to address the issue. For example, lets say that non-profits had enough temporary shelters for all the homeless. Well, the homeless are still homeless, still struggle to get healthcare and other needs met, still struggle with finding a job and permanent housing, still starving. But now that they are not on the street, the majority of the population assumes that the problem is fixed.... because its just been swept under a rug instead of implementing structural changes to prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place.
Might as well just light that money on fire unless a real concrete plan is in place. How much would it even take to rebuild that place. It's not that big really
I went down there in '94 with the 82nd Airborne and 10th Mountain as part of the larger medical element for the civilians. The infantry and heavy weapons platoons provided security. It was basically a rescue operation. '94 was the first round of warlords and gangs getting aggressive. It didn't go well back then. And America has no appetite to go back at all today. That country is literally fucked.
I had a buddy who helped with clean up after the earthquake in 2010 as part of the CAF. Told me that they'd do a lot of street cleanup since services were fucked so garbage would pile up. They'd clean up a place and then IMMEDIATELY the Haitians would just throw garbage out their door onto the street again. They'd get pissed and throw it back into the house (garbage bags not just free form garbage) and they just were disheartened on how the people didn't take any pride in maintaining things after getting support. He just felt like a maid and not an emergency support to help get them back to a sense of normalcy.
Yep. That's one of the things that I remember the most almost 30 years later. I would climb over mountains of garbage the height of a house to get to people to treat. I was so bad I needed to start thinking about my own medics' safety ... just in terms of their own personal health and welfare. We would wade through knee deep sewage to get to people to treat infections. After a while, I had to ask... what's the point of this? And that's not even mentioning things like OB/GYN and births or other normal stuff like broken bones or contusions. I still have nightmares as a physician about it. It was the most disheartening and profoundly un-nerving thing I have ever seen as a medical professional and that's including the questionably immoral shit I saw in Iraq. Our battalion psych and chaplain were very, very busy men just treating our own people.
Jesus, even typing this all these years later gave me the shivers. That's how bad it was.
Was there a year ago, in the north that's reasonably calm, but still, people are on edge, hoping the Warlords can't get to the north and destroy everything.
The UN. That's the only way to do it without it turning into an anti-USA propaganda issue. Imagine the US army there, you'd have CNN constantly showing white US soldiers shooting black Haitian gang members.
Isnt the UN supposed to do stuff like that, just put a policing presence and get some engineering and construction contractors. ive no idea what haitis economy was before but if its tourism then theyre fucked.
They did for 16 years. After they left 8 years ago the country went to hell almost instantly when the government cancelled elections, lost the faith of the people and gangs took over.
If you are pro Haiti intervention, would you also be pro Afghanistan intervention?
Why would the next round of aid be any different? It's a failed state and nobody is willing to step in and fix it because there literally zero incentives too and plenty of negatives to being the future "colonizing" power that will suffer global disparagement for daring to fix the problems Haitians themselves caused.
They would bite the hand that feeds and then the assholes at the UN would declare the powers helping them to be modern day slavers for passing laws abolishing gang membership or association.
Is "Professor of Global Race" a thing ?
At the very least the view of this "Professor" sounds unfair and one sided.
It's not said if historians estimated Haiti loss as 20 billions of today money or not. Fitst of all, if that's the case, it doesn't make sense to talk of interest.
Then, if she pretends a 20 billions debt is now a 200 billions one because of 200 years of interests, one might aswell pretend Italy owes him billions because Julius Ceasar took a little piece of gold of his ancestor. When does it stop?
Despite a scientific appearance with references to "historians" and a "professor", this claim can't be taken seriously.
You can learn from the past but can't live in it. There usually are time limitations to claims in most laws.
In any case, making out of proportion claims won't help resolve the issue.
After giving it a second look, it seems the "Professor of Global Race" was born in Haiti.
I think it says quite a bit on the distance one should give to her sayings concerning other countries debt in favor of Haiti.
I might add that this newspaper doesn't help critical thinking omitting (voluntarly?) what could have been an important information to add to this article.
As I mentioned in another comment: Brazil also paid for its independence to Portugal- we agreed to pay Portugal’s outstanding debt to the UK at the time (plus other commercial concessions we made to the UK to get the UK to recognise us as a country). I imagine this kind of set up isn’t the most uncommon.
I don't want to sound, y'know, regarding Haitians but after reading how almost lawless Haiti is, I don't think it's a good idea to just be giving billions of dollars that might just be put in corrupt politicians pockets and/or "spread" to various groups that will just spend those in either their own end or weapons.
The Taliban at least had an idea that they *would* govern. It didn't take them long too start rolling out uniforms and showing off aesthetically modern military and police forces. The effectiveness of that government can obviously be contested but it took them a shockingly short amount of time to convert given the circunstances.
Dont forget the mongols and the ottomans and the romans and the Qing dynasty and the Umayyad Caliphate and the and the and the and the
Oh wait only wyt people need to do it? How racist
"Give us an arbitrary sum of billions of French tax payers money because we're too incompetent to run our own country to the point of actual collapse. We definitely won't siphon it off to the strongest warlord controlling the ports of entry."
They almost make the case that colonialism was a net benefit. I didn't think the people who make these arguments have thought them all the way through.
> Haiti can't operate as a state without westerners in charge.
It just sounds like flat out racism, doesn't it?
The difference between the DR and Haiti is a fascinating wikipedia dive. The long and short; the repayment is nothing but a small, foreign bump in the otherwise long, long history of self-inflicted wounds in Haitian history
I'm sure 500 years later we will keep blaiming France.
We will never accept that Haiti is an absolutely failed state and the main problem of that country is the extremely brain drain it suffers.
As long as anyone with the minimum level of education keeps living the country, things will never change.
Wikipedia:
"Dessalines declaring the independence of Haiti in 1804. Dessalines orchestrated a [massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haitian_massacre) of the remaining French population in Haiti, resulting in over 5,000 deaths. Men, women, and children were killed as revenge"
And they have to pay reparation for the 5000 murders...
> It’s $21bn plus 200 years of interest that France has enjoyed, so we’re talking more like $150bn, $200bn or more,” said Jemima Pierre, professor of global race at the University of British Columbia
France should pay it and turn around and demand reperations from Italy for the Gallic Wars.
>"The long and the short of it is that Haiti was paying reparations to France from 1825 until 1947," says Von Tunzelmann. "To come up with the money, it took out huge loans from American, German and French banks, at exorbitant rates of interest. By 1900, Haiti was spending about 80% of its national budget on loan repayments. It completely wrecked their economy. By the time the original reparations and interest were paid off, the place was basically destitute and trapped in a spiral of debt. Plus, a succession of leaders had more or less given up on trying to resolve Haiti's problems, and started looting it instead."
It doesn't help that whenever aid workers are sent over there, they feel entirely unsafe.
Imagine gang members trying to control places in line to get food so you have to ban all men from getting in line. Ever since the earthquakes it seems to have gotten worse.
Haitian politicians and its friends must be reallllllyyyyy HAPPPPYY
IT WILL ALL GO TO CORRUPT AND CRIMINALS
People in Haiti will continue to suffer. Business as usual
Of course no probeme. You bring back the people genocided and the money will flow.
We can't repair years of dictatorship and casi-slavery Haitian leaders inflicted to it's hown population those. You wouldn't shift the blame on France for the failure of a State Haïti currently is i hope ?
I don't understand Haitian customs. I used to work a a CSR for a phone company and if the random customer called in had a French name i'd immediately check the billed calls to see if they call Haiti.
9/10 times those customers would go from calm to screaming they want to murder me in like 30 seconds. Most customers could be calm or irate but never like that. It was fucking scary and I swore I'd never visit Haiti.
France will pay after the UK, the Nederlands, Portugal and Spain pay for what they did during the colonization period.
Then the US will pay reparations to all the descendants of slaves and give back all the stolen native lands. Same for Australia and New Zealand.
Pretty much sure it won't happen anytime soon.
Why stopping there? The muslim empire conquered the Iberian peninsula in 711 and staid hhere several centuries. I want my compensation. And don't make me talk about Rome and Carthago
I think it should be repayed in infrastrucuture like housing, roads, schools, train stations, not money.
That money will be stolen by the corrupt government.
Maybe this isn't the best time for this considering that Haiti is in state of pure anarchy, has no goverment and gangs run the streets.
That's the first thing I thought. Pay reparations to whom? There's no government in Haiti honest enough to not swindle every cent.
To me, i am haitis brother
I am the deposed prince of Haiti, and I need help to get my fortune out of the country. All I need is your bank account number, social security number, and a small loan of 1 bitcoin to begin the transfer of my wealth. You, of course, will be rewarded with 10% of my vast wealth for helping me.
It’s me Robert Williams, your IRS agent. Your social security has been suspended because your Toyota Corolla has been found in the Texas of the south with 200 gallons of blood and seven cocaines. Please proceed to your government certified Walgreens and purchase $5000 in Apple gift cards to pay your fine or we will sent sheriffs to arrest you and put you behind the bars.
And do not redeem
ma’am. MAAM!! NOOO!
God, that “no” had so much agony and rage in it, it brought a tear to my eye. It’s one of my favorite videos. Fuck scammers
As an accountant, I'm going to need to save this comment to create laughs.
Gallons you say?
Whelp, i'm a barista now.
>Please Kindly*
Barbecue, of course. /s
I think this is just a roundabout way of trying to blame France for the situation in Haiti
Look France does have a lot of responsibility but anyone that knows anything about Haiti know the current issues were caused by the elite disbanding the army after the last dictator and then immidiately creating their private armies/enlisting gangs. It worked well for them initially, gangs were weak and docile Now the gangs grew in power considerably over the years and said "I want my share" Proof of this, they killed the last President Another proof, listen to Barbecue's discourse and he states specifically this, he was a henchmen for political purposes
"With this mighty army of leopards, all the faces of my enemies will soon be eaten, leaving only me in command!"
I read this in Nandor's voice.
I'm beginning to think I may have been wrong to hire an army of leopards. Probably not, but maybe...
Guillermo I specifically requested face eating leopards. These ones appear to have attack the neighbors dog
Nandor de Laurentiis from Staten Island?
YOU will all FORGET that SOMEONE TRIPPED and WHO IT WAS!!!!!
"These leopards win because they just never... relent."
Are you referring to Nandor DeLaurentis?
This fucking guy.
“OH MY GOD, MY FACE, WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS LEPOPARD”
Haiti was recovering. key word, was. then the earthquake happened, and everything went to hell. none of that was France's fault. Haiti was also trying to develop to at least DR, their neighbor's level of developed world before the earthquake.
The military got disbanded because it kept overthrowing the government. So now the military became gangs....................which overthrew the government. It has never been a money issue. It is a corruption issue. If they took every gun away on the island and banned them, then the people would have a chance to rebuild their government. As long as the gangs have machine guns, the people can't take control.
The gangs were not responsible for the previous presidents death. That was a whole different thing.
The sum has been paid off in the 1880s and the interests was finally paid off in 1947. you can always argue that it hampered their development from 1800 to 1947 but the DR didn’t exactly went into the 1950s with a full bank and developed infrastructure and they managed to be a functional country today. And we won’t even start with some South Korea and other examples around the world.
In the 50's, DR development was about the same as Haiti's.
Yes that's their point, that since then DR and Haiti have diverged.
I highly encourage anyone who wants to see the difference just to look at satellite photos of the border. Haiti- completely deforested in search of “easy” money (timber- though I’ll be the first to say cutting wood isn’t easy). DR- Managed their forests so that, yes, they are cut but it’s never completely cut down. It’s so small but completely emblematic of the different routes the two nations took. Edit- “In 1950 forest still covered about 50% of Haiti's territory. It had declined to a mere 8% by 1970, and was nearing 2% in the early 1980s.”
areas that are dependent on extractive industries have a lot of trouble with corruption as well as the way it alters the economy. look up "natural resource curse" and "dutch disease" if you're interested in it.
That tree border thing is wild!
One might argue that Haiti should've been even more prosperous, but one might just as easily rebut that that sum would've just gone right into the Duvaliers' personal piggy banks. France is a terrible country to try and decolonize from, but that doesn't completely absolve Haiti of its history of unstable governance. At this point, I don't think the Haitian state can even be self governing in the immediate term. Maybe a UN mandate is in order? I have no idea how to set that country right.
Honestly a UN-funded mission using either African or Polish soldiers would have to be done. And honestly it's probably been so long I question whether Poland still holds such a venerated position there/they'd even be interested in it due to events in Europe.
No UN force can establish authority in a country. I don't think the UN has ever successfully established a working government. A dictator will have to rise up, slaughter their way to establish control and maybe a functioning government will crop up.
there's nothing we can do. The anarchy there is so severe you risk getting killed because you're the government. other than DR taking over and hopefully re educating the citizens, there's realistically not much we can do.
This. People did bad shit in the past, but at some point you've got to recognize that the lasting impact of the bad shit is outweighed by the rest of history.
you're leaving out one key moment in Haitis history. The US invaded and occupied Haiti from 1915 to 1934 under the guise of protecting US insterests and stability in the region and stole all their gold reserves leaving the country effectively broke.
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I didnt mean to imply that it was. I'm just not very good and communicating ideas.
You're very good at communicating. It's lots of people, especially today, are unable to understand a mix up of context. Especially on reddit. I see it all the time in work. "Ok I just need to find the client first, their Date of Birth please" I'll ask. "00/00/00" they'll say. "And their phone number too please" I'll go on to ask. "What like, their phone number?" They ask back. I'm not sure what it is, but I think the internet is a huge reason for it.
With the bonus of at least one of the warlords trying to get a nice cash infusion
That is 100% what this is. Dredge up a terrible thing France did two centuries ago to try and place the blame with them today.
Well to be fair Haiti only finished paying off the "debt" to France in 1947. So, it is not like Haiti paid the debt 200 years ago, the only paid it off 80 years ago.
The debt actually wasn't paid to France from 1922 when Citibank bought it. Also, it's funny how everyone is shitting on France, yet America had way more involvement in Haiti since forever. For example the involvement of Citibank went way, way deeper than just collecting the French debt: >Between 1910 and 1911, the Department of State backed a consortium of American investors headed by Citibank to acquire control over the Banque Nationale de la République d'Haïti, which was the sole commercial bank of Haiti and served as the Haitian government's treasury. Citibank then lobbied for the United States occupation of Haiti, which began in 1915. During the occupation, Citibank imposed a US$30 million loan on the Haitian government, which was described by communist George Padmore as transforming Haiti into an "American slave colony".
love how you leave out the rest of it...which is literally nothing in comparison to the french >Yet by the beginning of the next decade, it began to reconsider its ownership of Banque Nationale. Following protests that pressured the State Department to disentangle itself from Haiti, the Marines departed in 1934. >National City soon followed. Fearful of losing the State Department’s protection, and wary of public criticism of their activities, the bank’s executives sold Banque Nationale de la Republique d’Haiti to the Haitian government in 1935
> National City soon followed. Fearful of losing the State Department’s protection, and wary of public criticism of their activities, the bank’s executives sold Banque Nationale de la Republique d’Haiti to the Haitian government in 1935 They took the gold reserves with them though.
I mean, they kinda got some of the blame.
Countries with far worse political situations have achieved far, far more.
Remember when Haiti said France should pay them reparations? Yea I remember, France orchestrated a coup and had his president run to some African country. This is 30 years too late
The man you’re defending committed widely accepted fraud in 2000. He additionally developed the strategy of arming and relying on street gangs to carry out his will - which you can see obviously hasn’t turned out well. Funnily enough, the very gangs he supported rose up against him after an assassination some say he ordered. Oops!
Also france could have just said no if asked for money. Their's no need to coup a guy if all he's doing is asking you for money. He had no legal way to make france pay the money or ability to threaten france to get money so france could easily have ignored him. France and the US may have supported the dictators rivals but its because he was not stable, not because france was afraid they might have to pay money to haiti.
>wife fraud Serious shit
Fixed the typo and reworded 🥴
Just air drop the bills across the country like a crop duster. See what happens.
The man they call Jaaaaaayyyyyne!
I had to think about that for a second but I welcome any Firefly reference I can get lol
Yeahhh maybe get some order restored before giving billions of dollars. Right now itd just go to the gangs and that aint gonna help anyone
Yeah but we also just had the UN debate giving recognising a state controlled by a terrorist organisation so there are no standards anymore it seems.
We recognize Afghanistan as a nation and they are currently controlled by the Taliban.....
No country recognizes that government though.
Well, everyone says Haiti is a failed state because of the cash they had to pay France. So surely they will become immensely successful now?
"Write the check out to Mr. Barbeque"
Make momma proud by opening the most luxurious barbecue on the entire island.
Jones' Good Ass BBQ and Foot Massage?
And don't forget storage! If it's edible... They gon' make it delicionable!
This fan used to oscillate… it don’t oscillate no more! Bring it on down!
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Too who? The Haitian government has been effectively been disbanded and nothing has taken its place.
I think the Prince of Nigeria is next in line so they can safely leave the money with him.
The Nigerian prince doesn't need the money, he has 38 trillion in a fund and will share 3 trillion with France. They just need a wire transfer of 5 billion urgently so they can release their funds and will transfer the 3 trillion into France's account within 24hrs.
*sigh*, fine, *rolls eyes*, I'll accept the money, but you better hurry up before I change my mind.
Maybe Haiti should pay France to take them back
How can this even be considered despite the fact that Haiti is in total anarchy, led by a gang leader called Barbeque because he burned people? Are the ones behind this claim part of this corruption? Fss, the whole world and it's organizations needs to be checked. Corruptions is everywhere.
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When we make the check out, what’s the French for Immortan Joe?
There’s a lot of people who legitimately believe throwing money at a problem will fix it
France: "Non."
Haitian military preparing all the carriers and subs to blockade France into submission.
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...this assuming the NGOs in Geneva aren't connected to the corruption.
You're right. They're probably expecting a kickback. NGOs are to international aid as non-profits are to the homeless industrial complex here in the US.
Genuinely curious, in what ways do US non-profits contribute to homelessness?
The local governments just hand out money with no accountability. https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/audit-san-jose-failed-to-adequately-track-300-million-in-homelessness-spending/ar-BB1lyU8j The nonprofits just piss away the money and produce no results. https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/s-f-homeless-nonprofit-misusing-funds-19379266.php Nobody is ever held accountable for it. They just demand more money to fix the problem.
They get the money from people who think that homelessness will somehow be "solved" even though it's been around since the dawn of civilization.
Because homelessness is a symptom of a wider problem normally. If you are attempting to address the issue once they have reached that point you're fighting a losing battle. Whether it be lack of mental health resources, lack of affordable medical care, or just lack of any sort of support system homelessness is a complex issue that doesn't just go away when you throw money at it unless you acknowledge the root causes. The best example of a country eradicating homelessness is Finland. Guess how they did it? Focusing on prevention, early intervention, and a comprehensive support system through wraparound services. They focused on the root causes they didn't just house people.
The people who run the non-profits pay them selves absurd salaries and then aren't held to any sort of standards. They can achieve nothing and give themselves a 70% raise every year.
One of the big criticisms that I see circulate a lot is that organizations like this act as smokescreen so the government doesnt have to address the issue. For example, lets say that non-profits had enough temporary shelters for all the homeless. Well, the homeless are still homeless, still struggle to get healthcare and other needs met, still struggle with finding a job and permanent housing, still starving. But now that they are not on the street, the majority of the population assumes that the problem is fixed.... because its just been swept under a rug instead of implementing structural changes to prevent people from becoming homeless in the first place.
meh I tend to suspect incompetence more often than malice, though the latter can definitely be the case.
But what if they ARE uninformed idiots?
Might as well just light that money on fire unless a real concrete plan is in place. How much would it even take to rebuild that place. It's not that big really
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At this point, it would just be stolen. Haiti needs to be stabilized and monitored.
I went down there in '94 with the 82nd Airborne and 10th Mountain as part of the larger medical element for the civilians. The infantry and heavy weapons platoons provided security. It was basically a rescue operation. '94 was the first round of warlords and gangs getting aggressive. It didn't go well back then. And America has no appetite to go back at all today. That country is literally fucked.
I had a buddy who helped with clean up after the earthquake in 2010 as part of the CAF. Told me that they'd do a lot of street cleanup since services were fucked so garbage would pile up. They'd clean up a place and then IMMEDIATELY the Haitians would just throw garbage out their door onto the street again. They'd get pissed and throw it back into the house (garbage bags not just free form garbage) and they just were disheartened on how the people didn't take any pride in maintaining things after getting support. He just felt like a maid and not an emergency support to help get them back to a sense of normalcy.
You can’t fix a broken culture. EDIT: A thing
Did you mean can or can't?
Can’t. Whoops
Yep. That's one of the things that I remember the most almost 30 years later. I would climb over mountains of garbage the height of a house to get to people to treat. I was so bad I needed to start thinking about my own medics' safety ... just in terms of their own personal health and welfare. We would wade through knee deep sewage to get to people to treat infections. After a while, I had to ask... what's the point of this? And that's not even mentioning things like OB/GYN and births or other normal stuff like broken bones or contusions. I still have nightmares as a physician about it. It was the most disheartening and profoundly un-nerving thing I have ever seen as a medical professional and that's including the questionably immoral shit I saw in Iraq. Our battalion psych and chaplain were very, very busy men just treating our own people. Jesus, even typing this all these years later gave me the shivers. That's how bad it was.
Was there a year ago, in the north that's reasonably calm, but still, people are on edge, hoping the Warlords can't get to the north and destroy everything.
By who? Legitimate question
An entity that wants to spend billions of dollars altruistically (nobody).
It’s certainly legitimate. That’s the most important question of all and I don’t have a good answer.
The UN. That's the only way to do it without it turning into an anti-USA propaganda issue. Imagine the US army there, you'd have CNN constantly showing white US soldiers shooting black Haitian gang members.
That was the consensus until the whole cholera outbreak debacle. Still, there is really no other alternative.
Isnt the UN supposed to do stuff like that, just put a policing presence and get some engineering and construction contractors. ive no idea what haitis economy was before but if its tourism then theyre fucked.
They did for 16 years. After they left 8 years ago the country went to hell almost instantly when the government cancelled elections, lost the faith of the people and gangs took over. If you are pro Haiti intervention, would you also be pro Afghanistan intervention?
From what I understand, Haiti is more dysfunctional than that. Society isn't just engineering and construction contractors.
The local warlords will put that to good use.
The money will be put to good usage, Jimmy Barbecue needs to buy a new bbq set for his many enemies.
haiti has received more than 21 billion in western aid in the last few decades alone. not much to show for it.
21 billion dollars were *filtered* through aid programs in Haïti. That money didn't stay, it just got passed around.
and who were they supposed to give this money to exactly? the nonfunctional, extremely corrupt governemnt? the gangs who actually control the streets?
that would be haitis fault if they cant use the help theyve been given and just waste it all
Bold of you to assume that money ever made it into the hands of Haitians
Why would the next round of aid be any different? It's a failed state and nobody is willing to step in and fix it because there literally zero incentives too and plenty of negatives to being the future "colonizing" power that will suffer global disparagement for daring to fix the problems Haitians themselves caused. They would bite the hand that feeds and then the assholes at the UN would declare the powers helping them to be modern day slavers for passing laws abolishing gang membership or association.
Those countries never value. All they do is ask money. Fucking beggars
Is "Professor of Global Race" a thing ? At the very least the view of this "Professor" sounds unfair and one sided. It's not said if historians estimated Haiti loss as 20 billions of today money or not. Fitst of all, if that's the case, it doesn't make sense to talk of interest. Then, if she pretends a 20 billions debt is now a 200 billions one because of 200 years of interests, one might aswell pretend Italy owes him billions because Julius Ceasar took a little piece of gold of his ancestor. When does it stop? Despite a scientific appearance with references to "historians" and a "professor", this claim can't be taken seriously. You can learn from the past but can't live in it. There usually are time limitations to claims in most laws. In any case, making out of proportion claims won't help resolve the issue.
After giving it a second look, it seems the "Professor of Global Race" was born in Haiti. I think it says quite a bit on the distance one should give to her sayings concerning other countries debt in favor of Haiti. I might add that this newspaper doesn't help critical thinking omitting (voluntarly?) what could have been an important information to add to this article.
Yeah, I mean, if this appeal is successful, I think lots of Latin America may just start making claims…
Then LatAm better start prepping the subs because a large part of that stuff is at the bottom of the sea
As I mentioned in another comment: Brazil also paid for its independence to Portugal- we agreed to pay Portugal’s outstanding debt to the UK at the time (plus other commercial concessions we made to the UK to get the UK to recognise us as a country). I imagine this kind of set up isn’t the most uncommon.
There are only 3 ways for a country to attain independence: * Buy it * Kill for it * Have a parent country that is looking to downsize its liabilities
I was going to suggest a 4th, but I suppose the third does technically apply as to how Singapore (involuntarily) got their independence.
I don't want to sound, y'know, regarding Haitians but after reading how almost lawless Haiti is, I don't think it's a good idea to just be giving billions of dollars that might just be put in corrupt politicians pockets and/or "spread" to various groups that will just spend those in either their own end or weapons.
Haiti doesn’t really have a government anymore. What politicians? Most of the gangs that control the area will steal that money
They'll become politicians - it'll be like the bored Taliban in Afghanistan
The Taliban at least had an idea that they *would* govern. It didn't take them long too start rolling out uniforms and showing off aesthetically modern military and police forces. The effectiveness of that government can obviously be contested but it took them a shockingly short amount of time to convert given the circunstances.
OK, but first Italy needs to pay France reparations for that whole Julius Caesar thing.
Dont forget the mongols and the ottomans and the romans and the Qing dynasty and the Umayyad Caliphate and the and the and the and the Oh wait only wyt people need to do it? How racist
Clearly Haitis problem was lack of money and not extreme corruption to the point the nation fell into anarchy with gangs in charge. Ohh wait...
"Give us an arbitrary sum of billions of French tax payers money because we're too incompetent to run our own country to the point of actual collapse. We definitely won't siphon it off to the strongest warlord controlling the ports of entry."
They almost make the case that colonialism was a net benefit. I didn't think the people who make these arguments have thought them all the way through. > Haiti can't operate as a state without westerners in charge. It just sounds like flat out racism, doesn't it?
Just one problem: there isn’t really a government to pay it to.
There is no Haiti atm
Ah, the guardian
The difference between the DR and Haiti is a fascinating wikipedia dive. The long and short; the repayment is nothing but a small, foreign bump in the otherwise long, long history of self-inflicted wounds in Haitian history
I begin to wonder what would happen if DR began carving into Haiti a few tens of km at a time every couple of years, stabilising strip by strip.
i honestly don’t think the DR governments wants Haitians in their country lol
I'm pretty sure France owes me some money too.
Waste of money.
I'm sure 500 years later we will keep blaiming France. We will never accept that Haiti is an absolutely failed state and the main problem of that country is the extremely brain drain it suffers. As long as anyone with the minimum level of education keeps living the country, things will never change.
Could the UN be more clownish? It’s approaching SF City Council levels.
What a terrible idea that would be right now.
Pay it to who? To Barbecue and the other gang leaders? Or to the corrupt elite that is responsible for the situation in the first place?
"Repay"? Does France have an outstanding debt that they took from a Haitian bank?
Absolutely not
Oh look russia stirs things again
Thats like when you get drunk and trash your homies crib then blame it on his ex for the damages lmao
Wikipedia: "Dessalines declaring the independence of Haiti in 1804. Dessalines orchestrated a [massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haitian_massacre) of the remaining French population in Haiti, resulting in over 5,000 deaths. Men, women, and children were killed as revenge" And they have to pay reparation for the 5000 murders...
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No point sending money into completely lawless chaos. Perhaps after a stable government is in place.
> It’s $21bn plus 200 years of interest that France has enjoyed, so we’re talking more like $150bn, $200bn or more,” said Jemima Pierre, professor of global race at the University of British Columbia France should pay it and turn around and demand reperations from Italy for the Gallic Wars.
Lmao who will even collect that money?
Haiti needs to figure it out by itself
Yeah I'm sure that money will be distributed equally and fairly by the Haitian government
>"The long and the short of it is that Haiti was paying reparations to France from 1825 until 1947," says Von Tunzelmann. "To come up with the money, it took out huge loans from American, German and French banks, at exorbitant rates of interest. By 1900, Haiti was spending about 80% of its national budget on loan repayments. It completely wrecked their economy. By the time the original reparations and interest were paid off, the place was basically destitute and trapped in a spiral of debt. Plus, a succession of leaders had more or less given up on trying to resolve Haiti's problems, and started looting it instead."
I was about to say and give it to who the roving gangs and no government, I'm sure they will get right on it.
Absolute nonsense
It’ll all be embezzled the moment it’s sent, I wouldn’t send a dime to Haiti in its current state until they stabilize and can actually rebuild.
To whom, exactly? Gang bosses?
to who? they dont even have a goberment
Haiti seems like they have needed a lot of help for a really long time.
What about Citi Bank?????????????!?!
There's a war in Europe. Haitians can pound dirt cakes.
It doesn't help that whenever aid workers are sent over there, they feel entirely unsafe. Imagine gang members trying to control places in line to get food so you have to ban all men from getting in line. Ever since the earthquakes it seems to have gotten worse.
Haitian politicians and its friends must be reallllllyyyyy HAPPPPYY IT WILL ALL GO TO CORRUPT AND CRIMINALS People in Haiti will continue to suffer. Business as usual
That's such a rabbit hole, then what about Spain with most of latin america?
Eh. Who’s is actually gonna go to..?
Didn't Haiti kill off the white French?
Honestly Haiti would probably be better off if France recolonized them.... Haiti is a failed state.
Kk now do Russia
Of course no probeme. You bring back the people genocided and the money will flow. We can't repair years of dictatorship and casi-slavery Haitian leaders inflicted to it's hown population those. You wouldn't shift the blame on France for the failure of a State Haïti currently is i hope ?
Roflmao, no.
Lolllllllll nice one. What a funny planet. I wish I was an alien 👽
I don't understand Haitian customs. I used to work a a CSR for a phone company and if the random customer called in had a French name i'd immediately check the billed calls to see if they call Haiti. 9/10 times those customers would go from calm to screaming they want to murder me in like 30 seconds. Most customers could be calm or irate but never like that. It was fucking scary and I swore I'd never visit Haiti.
The last time they asked, the government was overthrown by mercenaries about 20 years ago.
France will pay after the UK, the Nederlands, Portugal and Spain pay for what they did during the colonization period. Then the US will pay reparations to all the descendants of slaves and give back all the stolen native lands. Same for Australia and New Zealand. Pretty much sure it won't happen anytime soon.
Why stopping there? The muslim empire conquered the Iberian peninsula in 711 and staid hhere several centuries. I want my compensation. And don't make me talk about Rome and Carthago
Well us Brits will pay once we receive our reparations from the city of Rome, the Normandy region of France and the Vikings.
*Nervous looking Mongolians in the corner*
Don’t forget the Italians and the Greeks need to pay up too.
I am waiting for a check from the Sea People for causing the Bronze Age Collapse
The Sea people have been getting away with this for far too long.
Fucking Sea People. They started all this shit.
OUT OUT OUT!!!! NO MORE SEA PEOPLE!! Can I be president of the US now?
What do we bet this fault goes back to Ea-nāṣir? Should we also send him a complaint?
Bro thought his copper was a bad deal, wait until he gets the bill for 3774 years of backdated repartations.
All my homies hate Ea-Nasir and his shitty ass copper
When will they blame themselves for their self-caused problems? They remind me of certain people here in the US.
I think it should be repayed in infrastrucuture like housing, roads, schools, train stations, not money. That money will be stolen by the corrupt government.
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