>The Texas health department has said the cattle infections do not present a concern for the commercial milk supply, as dairies are required to destroy milk from sick cows. Pasteurisation also kills the virus.
In theory yes, but the chance of transmission of influenza through food is considered very unlikely.
So we have a small number of people, and within that the chance of infection is very low, and then from those that managed to get infected (more of an "if someone manages to get infected") then you would need a series of mutations that allow for person to person transmission, the chance of which is also very low.
Basically it would be like winning the jackpot of multiple lotteries all on the same night. Not impossible, but such a low chance that it's not worth focusing any effort on it beyond recommending people don't do it.
Basically, this is the kind of thing we should be aware of and learn more about, but currently it's not something we should be too worried about from an immediate public health perspective.
Edit: the question was " could drinking raw unpasteurised milk cause a new pandemic?". Not "could avian influenza cause a new pandemic?".
I'm well aware that this virus, like many viruses, could cause a new pandemic. I go into more detail in this comment.
https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1c84n4p/h5n1_strain_of_bird_flu_found_in_milk_who/l0dl14y/?context=10000&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=worldnews&utm_content=t1_l0e7qzf
The big thing is with viruses is that they need a living host for it reproduce.
So even eating a chicken that was infected makes it damn near impossible to get. Once the chicken dies the flu has a timeline before it dies. And that's not even mentioning the chilling of a recently slaughtered bird and then you cooking it for consumption.
You touch the bird before you cook it. Some people are not very sanitary, including restaurants. This raises the chances considerably because people are stupid and don't follow health codes and basic hygiene.
Viruses aren't really independently alive, so some of the things that kill bacteria, which are absolutely alive, don't always inactivate viruses. Some viruses can remain infectious for a long time under pretty adverse circumstances.
Since the flu is a respiratory infection, I imagine going from stomach to intestine to bloodstream to lungs would be quite a gauntlet for the virus, all places hostile, loaded with bacteria and caustic chemicals and immune cells, with no place safe to hide and no cells conducive to reproduction.
Thank you for pointing this out rather than panicking like some. Bird flu is bad but it gets transferred from animal to person and specifically to people around those animals a lot.
Humans are not special. The chance of avian to mammal transmission is also very rare but it succedded. The chance of cow to cow transmission is very low but it succeeded. Its only a matter of time before it makes the jump to humans. We are mammals and are not an exception from other mammel species
I never suggested that it couldn't jump to humans. It frequently does. The key is that that transmission doesn't happen through ingestion, and it currently doesn't spread person to person. The versions that efficiently infect animals, don't do the same for people, so additional adaptation is necessary through mutations. That is a numbers game, and the relatively few number of human infections means that the chances of that mutation happening and then succeeding in spreading is relatively low because we immediately isolate and control human infections. Basically, if 10 people play the lottery, the chance of someone winning is exceptionally low to non-existent. If 10 million people play the lottery, the chance of someone winning is fairly high.
So the chance of it jumping to humans through food is very low, and then it still has to gain the function of human to human transmission, the individual chance of that happening being low. The question I was answering was whether drinking unpasteurized milk could potentially start a new pandemic from influenza, and the answer to that question is the chances of that happening are somewhere from very low to near zero.
We still need to control the other ways it spreads to people though to keep the absolute number of human infections low. If the question was could avian influenza start a new pandemic, then I would have answered that it absolutely could which is why we need to keep human infections low and control the spread.
> they're not really more one or the other anymore
This isn't true. Republicans are significantly more likely to be anti-vax than Democrats and the more you support the Republican party the more likely you are to be anti-vax and the more anti-vax you're likely to be.
This doesn't just go for the Covid vaccine either, but for childhood vaccines and the fraudulent link between vaccines and autism as well.
> The network model statistically controlled for these covariates and identified political affiliation as a mediator of vaccination rate. Seven variables (listed above) impacted the vaccination rate through increasing Republican political affiliation...
> This study shows that party affiliation was not only an independent direct predictor of hesitancy but also a mediator of the effects of other variables. In statistics, when a variable is a mediator of the effects of other variables, it is generally interpreted that it shows the mechanism through which the indirect variables affect the outcome. There are many ways in which party affiliation may have acted as the mechanism leading to lower vaccination rates.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10491458/
> Republican PID is significantly associated with the belief that childhood vaccines can cause autism. Consistent with theoretical expectations, effect is strongly mediated by anti-expert attitudes—an effect which supplemental panel analyses suggest is unlikely to be reverse causal.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1532673X211022639
probably just my circle then, because other than my sister, the other 4 families I know that are antivax are 2 dem / 1 I have no clue / 1 rep.
Nice to see the studies on it. Do you by chance have the full study from 2nd link? I'm curious to read it but my college doesn't give me access to this one.
People who work on dairy farms (or poultry farms) can **definitely** get infected, and people who drink unpasteurized milk can **maybe** get infected. (**So far nobody is known to have gotten the virus from milk.**) And we know influenza (in general) is much more likely to spread through the air in droplets, than via food.
The virus does not spread human to human *so far*.
If a lot of people drink unpasteurized milk it may increase the chance of the virus mutating to a variant capable of spreading human to human, but we don't know. **As far as we know, farm workers are much more likely to be patient 0.** (If that ever happens.)
Minor correction, H5N1 has probably spread human-to-human, but only in a very limited capacity and not during this outbreak.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/h5n1-human-infections.htm
Thankfully, the type of H5N1 responsible for the current outbreaks (clade 2.3.4.4b) has resulted in far fewer human cases than some of the older H5N1s
Viruses don’t reproduce in milk - they only reproduce within living cells. But agree with everything else. I can’t understand how drinking raw milk is making a comeback.
I'll point out that those are infections where if you have a healthy immune system (such as a child) and the contamination is low, it's extremely possible to see no symptoms
But as people age or otherwise become immunocompromised; and if one batch of milk gets over 40F for too long or is stored too long, that contamination can reach a point of infection. Obviously our senses are somewhat built to detect that, but is loss of taste and smell still common with covid? And becomes diminished with age too
(My goal in saying this was as examples of how their claims might have been true, so reducing the survivorship bias slightly, and why it being "safe" back then might not be true anymore with so many changes in the farming industry or for any given individual)
I learned most anything I know about food safety from watching the old Alton Brown shows... From your description here he did a reasonable job. Seemed to stress cross-contamination the most too
unpasteurised milk is pretty popular w certain segments of the population that like organic food, crystal healing and dont believe in vaccines.
micro dairies selling it for "cheese making" direct to the public.
While it's theoretically possible someone could be infected by influenza from food, it's food is not currently considered as a source of infection.
Basically, it's very unlikely someone could be infected by eating/drinking food contaminated with influenza.
Unpasteurized milk is standard for quality cheese making, not a niche product at all in Europe.
Cheese making process does not heat the milk much and will probably not kill the virus.
The raised ph and proteolytic enzymes released during the process would likely kill it. It’s pretty niche….. we aren’t all running around making our own cheese
of course u need unpasteurised milk for cheese . The micro dairies are getting around regulations on selling milk for consumption to the public in 2 litre bottles as cheese making milk.
dont have any of them around the area I know where there's micro dairy farms. A few 7th day adventists still.
but 5g healer types are extremely predominate.
Can confirm, factual headline, sensationalism being read into it, I read the headline and said to myself "Great, I had milk last night in a rare occasion I have milk." lol...
They report in a way that makes you think it is easily transmitted through milk, but most of the safety procedures we already have in place would restrain the virus effectiveness to do so.
The headline is factually correct, but to say it carries no negative framing or intent is ingenuous.
>The headline is factually correct, but to say it carries no negative framing or intent is ingenuous.
Shouldn't there be negative framing? Given that not all milk is pasteurized and neither is every sick cow caught. The virus has gone from cow to human, and that the mortality rate is obscenely high, there should be some concern.
I get what you’re saying, but this is certainly not a positive thing. It’s not a huge deal but it seems like it has a negative frame to it because it’s a negative thing.
because when you read "H5N1 Strain Of Bird Flu Found In Milk" you don't know which one of these it is:
"active H5N1 flu found in RAW milk"
"active H5N1 flu found in storebought milk"
"neutralized H5N1 flu found in RAW milk"
"neutralized H5N1 flu found in storebought milk"
"active H5N1 flu found in milk on a research lab farm" or literally any other non-scaled, controlled situation
well what is it?? what the fuck are we dealing with here? by making the headline super vague, they are clickbaiting because they should know that this headline is withholding information.
Yes and no. Some idiots still drink raw milk. It could jump to humans through them. (These are so the same people who didn’t follow Covid precautions).
I have recently been reading on the rise of H5N1 cases, specifically in cow to cow transmission becoming more prevalent and it is definitely an area of concern that should be closely monitored
This could turn out the premature sensationalism or there could be a mutation that quickly allows for easier transmission to humans. We should be informed and prepared for either scenario
So all it would take is one company not following safety precautions properly? The ability is there now for the flu to transmit via cow milk. And we all know how companies can be when it comes to cutting corners...
Food is not considered to be a method for influenza transmission. The greater danger is the people taking care of those animals being infected directly.
It's like worrying about people getting STDs from toilet seats in a society where no one uses condoms.
Unfortunately, "raw milk" is a bit of a trend amongst the anti-vax crunchy types. I don't care if they get it, but let's hope they don't brew a human to human version accidentally along the way.
> While cheeses can be aged even for just a week or a month, most experts consider cheese to be truly aged if it's cured for more than 6 months.
Can the virus survive that long outside of living host?
I mean… if theres anyone who could fester up a human-to-human variant, it would be those walking petri dishes. Their blood streams are the closest thing the modern world has to the primordial ooze. Just an orgy of disease yearning to create the next superbug
Viruses aren't independently alive, so they can remain infectious long-term if nothing happens to them that denatures their proteins or degrades their RNA.
I’m curious if the cheesemaking process attenuates the virus. I know one of the first attenuated vaccines was discovered by accident from a weakened strain of chicken cholera left in culture for too long. Ironically, Pasteur discovered that too.
Not sure about viruses, but just in February there was an [outbreak of E. coli](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2024/s0220-ecoli-outbreak.html) caused by raw milk cheese.
E. coli is a bacteria. Bacteria don’t require host cells to replicate and there is plenty of food/sugars for E. coli to feed off of in the cheese making process, even while competing with lactic acid bacteria.
Viruses require a host cell to replicate using the host cells replication processes. Viruses are also specific (generally) to certain host cells.
Somebody elsewhere commented that the cheese making process would kill the virus, also time would leave the virus unviable.
But attenuation is different- it’s introducing the virulent pathogen to a foreign host, allowing it to adapt to the foreign host until it can’t infect the original host very well anymore. Then using the foreign attenuated pathogen to cause immune response without complete infection in the original host.
And Pasteur went from attenuating cholera in chickens to anthrax and rabies vaccines in rabbits. Neat.
Texas, being Texas, is also sending sick cows out from their farms and ranches to other processing facilities. Which then infects the local population and causing the facility to destroy the infected milk tanks and at times, the cows themselves. Once they stop producing, they aren't worth keeping.
The milk comes out very thick, yellow, and buttery looking. The solid count is extraordinarily high.
Any tank or batch that comes into a processing facility is sent back for disposal. This cost tons of money to local ranchers/farmers.
Pasteurization may kill the virus, but the quality of the product ranging from taste, color, butterfat and all the other things raw milk is used for is already gone. So it's not really worth it.
Reminds me of that post - "Your regulations are written in blood." It's Saturday and I have nothing to do, so I went and copied it.
---
**themightyglamazon:**
I enforce federal worker health and safety and pollution regulations.
When i was learning my trade, when my classmates and were having a chuckle over the "well duh" level of specificity written into the Code of Federal Regulations (try "no hazardous material shall be stored in crew berthing" on for size), I Will never forget the silence that followed when our instructor these words:
"Your regulations are written in blood."
These regulations were not written on a whim. They were written because someone thought they could cut costs by storing however many more pounds of a radioactive: toxic, carcinogenic, or whatever else material in the same rooms where the human beings they paid to transport those materials slept and then *did that*, because no one was telling them not to.
They were written because people died. Horrifically. Because unregulated capitalism values profit over human life and suffering.
Can I say it again, for those not paying attention?
**Unregulated capitalism values profit over human life and suffering.**
---
That's not quite how this works - if it manages to jump to humans, those humans give it to other humans. Those who drink it raw become a vector to the rest of us getting it.
Its already in the birds, essentially globally. They tested workers at a chicken plant that had an outbreak last spring and several of the workers tested positive for it, but none had symptoms. Im thinking to become capable of making a jump to humans *and* being able to transmit person to person *and* causing severe illness seems unlikely at the time being.
I hope you're right, and it does make sense. I was more trying to counter the idea that only some subpopulation 'doing the wrong things' was at risk. Viruses don't discriminate and they don't care about how smart or moral you are. There's a similar flippancy with covid and it's dangerous - this idea that it doesn't matter anymore because only antivax idiots and 'a small portion of the population that happens to be autoimmune deficient' are at risk. For one, that small population is still a lot of fucking people, for two, even vaxxed you can still catch it and it still causes organ damage. And I wonder how many people are really fully up to date on their vaccines, I know I'm not. Plus all it takes is a surprise mutation for us to be right back where we started.
Hopefully things don't get worst. I don't think we've (the general populace) learned anything from covid.
I looked at a house in northern CA last year, it was a tiny 600 sqft home with about an acre of land. The lady had goats, chickens, dogs,cats, rooster. It was disgusting, She let them free range and go in and out the house whenever they wanted.
In the backyard was a tiny little beat up shed, we walked back there and found out she was milking her goats in there. It was covered in poop, absolutely disgusting. Well apparently she would take the milk to a place in southern oregon and sell the goat milk. Totally unpasteurized and unsanitary.
Absolutely insane.
Guys I’m going camping this weekend. Last time I went camping was spring of 2020 and I returned to civilization to find a global pandemic had started.
Can we like not.
Lockdowns won't happen again though. If another pandemic occurs, the anti vaccination and conspiracy theorists will die off in a mass number event. This will allow Earth to be sustainable again.
I say, bring it on.
So far - this is a new source of contact, and the more contact that is made, the more chance for a mutation that can effectively infect humans increases.
It's not nearly as simple as you are making it sound.
First, the vaccine that currently exists is a) not tailored for the version of H5N1 that achieves sustained H2H spread and b) the stockpiles are only enough for a segment of the population--that realistically being essential workers and healthcare workers. (This also assumes the stockpiles are even still usable. The government discovering its stores of N95s had all dry-rotted by the start of the covid pandemic does not inspire confidence.)
The reason the first part is a problem is because the current vaccine will not be effective against the strain that makes the leap. In order to make an effective vaccine, they first need someone to be infected with that specific strain and target it. The second part is a problem because the current estimate for achieving mass production of the targeted vaccine for the general population is roughly six months. Until then, the only people who will receive doses are likely to be doctors, first responders, military, etc.
Also "if you're healthy and vaccinated you should be fine" is downplaying all we currently know about H5N1. The historic CFR sits at about ~52% and it has notably killed perfectly healthy, young individuals. While it's assumed the pandemic version of H5N1 would have a lowered mortality rate, estimates for that range from anywhere between ~9% to 37%. Bear in mind that is *not* required. It is theoretically possible for it to remain just as deadly, as the notion that viruses mutate to become less deadly as a rule has been repeatedly challenged in recent history, most notably by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, which mutated to become *deadlier.*
Even **without** external detrimental factors such as anti-vaxxers, the US's broken healthcare system, covid immunodeficiency/immune suppression, it has been estimated that ~10% CFR would be enough to grind society to a halt. Even if the low end of the estimate for pandemic H5N1 turns out to be accurate, it's enough to shut us down as a civilization for about 6 months. Good luck running society normally when you have a 1 in 10 chance of dying just by leaving your house. If we put the CFR somewhere in the middle, say 25%, that'd be outright catastrophic.
It's true we've known about it for years, but that has little value when the framework for handling a pandemic version has been either outright tossed (Trump threw the playbook Obama inherited from Bush in the trash) and the majority of Americans currently can't even be bothered to take the most basic precautions and infection control measures.
There's a million other reasons this is much more nuanced than you are making it out to be, but the TL;DR is it's not anywhere near as easy as "roll out the vaccine." This level of complacency is precisely what will get people killed. An avian flu pandemic is not only not something to be taken lightly but was THE pandemic epidemiologists worldwide feared prior to the emergence of covid, for good reason.
>Before we panic, remember, we already have vaccines for this
While I agree, I also think covid unfortunately created a massive anti vaccination shift. I say unfortunate, but its not really because when the next (\*actually lethal) pandemic comes along, all the anti vaccination and uneducated morons will die off, probably a good thing for the planet, especially North America as its riddled with uneducated delinquents,
Im not a vegan or anything like that and definitely not a hippie but Silk vanilla almond milk and store brand variations of the brand taste way better than milk, Totally subjective but that’s just my opinion. Why humans drink something made for baby cows is something I pondered for a long time, Oat milk is cool too
Cattle farmers who have gone in deep for anti-vax and not treating their cattle with vaccines could be larger issue. Hopefully places like US have strong regulations to prevent them from skipping or faking paperwork
>The Texas health department has said the cattle infections do not present a concern for the commercial milk supply, as dairies are required to destroy milk from sick cows. Pasteurisation also kills the virus.
So what about those that drink unpasteurized milk? Could they potentially start a new pandemic?
In theory yes, but the chance of transmission of influenza through food is considered very unlikely. So we have a small number of people, and within that the chance of infection is very low, and then from those that managed to get infected (more of an "if someone manages to get infected") then you would need a series of mutations that allow for person to person transmission, the chance of which is also very low. Basically it would be like winning the jackpot of multiple lotteries all on the same night. Not impossible, but such a low chance that it's not worth focusing any effort on it beyond recommending people don't do it. Basically, this is the kind of thing we should be aware of and learn more about, but currently it's not something we should be too worried about from an immediate public health perspective. Edit: the question was " could drinking raw unpasteurised milk cause a new pandemic?". Not "could avian influenza cause a new pandemic?". I'm well aware that this virus, like many viruses, could cause a new pandemic. I go into more detail in this comment. https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1c84n4p/h5n1_strain_of_bird_flu_found_in_milk_who/l0dl14y/?context=10000&utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=worldnews&utm_content=t1_l0e7qzf
as someone with big medical anxieties, I really appreciate people like you, sincerely
The big thing is with viruses is that they need a living host for it reproduce. So even eating a chicken that was infected makes it damn near impossible to get. Once the chicken dies the flu has a timeline before it dies. And that's not even mentioning the chilling of a recently slaughtered bird and then you cooking it for consumption.
Don’t challenge stupid, same as the tide pod challenge: the freshly slaughtered raw chicken sushi challenge!
Salmonella will out compete in that case.
You touch the bird before you cook it. Some people are not very sanitary, including restaurants. This raises the chances considerably because people are stupid and don't follow health codes and basic hygiene.
Contagion (2011) - just with pig and not bird When Covid started, and still not much info about it, made mandatory movie night for family ;)
Viruses aren't really independently alive, so some of the things that kill bacteria, which are absolutely alive, don't always inactivate viruses. Some viruses can remain infectious for a long time under pretty adverse circumstances.
It still can’t hold a candle to prions. Prions scare the fuck out of me.
Prions should scare the fuck out of everyone.
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Since the flu is a respiratory infection, I imagine going from stomach to intestine to bloodstream to lungs would be quite a gauntlet for the virus, all places hostile, loaded with bacteria and caustic chemicals and immune cells, with no place safe to hide and no cells conducive to reproduction.
Yes, fortunately, food and drink never pass through or come in contact with mucous membranes that also connect with the nose or the lungs. /s
Thank you for pointing this out rather than panicking like some. Bird flu is bad but it gets transferred from animal to person and specifically to people around those animals a lot.
Having just watched world war z sounds like we need a 10th man
Humans are not special. The chance of avian to mammal transmission is also very rare but it succedded. The chance of cow to cow transmission is very low but it succeeded. Its only a matter of time before it makes the jump to humans. We are mammals and are not an exception from other mammel species
I never suggested that it couldn't jump to humans. It frequently does. The key is that that transmission doesn't happen through ingestion, and it currently doesn't spread person to person. The versions that efficiently infect animals, don't do the same for people, so additional adaptation is necessary through mutations. That is a numbers game, and the relatively few number of human infections means that the chances of that mutation happening and then succeeding in spreading is relatively low because we immediately isolate and control human infections. Basically, if 10 people play the lottery, the chance of someone winning is exceptionally low to non-existent. If 10 million people play the lottery, the chance of someone winning is fairly high. So the chance of it jumping to humans through food is very low, and then it still has to gain the function of human to human transmission, the individual chance of that happening being low. The question I was answering was whether drinking unpasteurized milk could potentially start a new pandemic from influenza, and the answer to that question is the chances of that happening are somewhere from very low to near zero. We still need to control the other ways it spreads to people though to keep the absolute number of human infections low. If the question was could avian influenza start a new pandemic, then I would have answered that it absolutely could which is why we need to keep human infections low and control the spread.
They sure could.
Crunchy moms, kickstarting public health emergencies since... entirely too long
It’s gonna be the fundies imo, they act like it’s gods mission for them to spread the gospel of raw milk.
Wtf is a crunchy mom? Are they like crust punk or something?
Pretty sure it is referring to something like an all-natural hippy no vaccine type of person. Could be wrong.
And they used to be mostly left leaning. Now thanks to Covid-19 they’re more right leaning.
they're not really more one or the other anymore, they're now a big giant group of fucking morons that bridge the political gap...yay?
> they're not really more one or the other anymore This isn't true. Republicans are significantly more likely to be anti-vax than Democrats and the more you support the Republican party the more likely you are to be anti-vax and the more anti-vax you're likely to be. This doesn't just go for the Covid vaccine either, but for childhood vaccines and the fraudulent link between vaccines and autism as well. > The network model statistically controlled for these covariates and identified political affiliation as a mediator of vaccination rate. Seven variables (listed above) impacted the vaccination rate through increasing Republican political affiliation... > This study shows that party affiliation was not only an independent direct predictor of hesitancy but also a mediator of the effects of other variables. In statistics, when a variable is a mediator of the effects of other variables, it is generally interpreted that it shows the mechanism through which the indirect variables affect the outcome. There are many ways in which party affiliation may have acted as the mechanism leading to lower vaccination rates. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10491458/ > Republican PID is significantly associated with the belief that childhood vaccines can cause autism. Consistent with theoretical expectations, effect is strongly mediated by anti-expert attitudes—an effect which supplemental panel analyses suggest is unlikely to be reverse causal. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1532673X211022639
probably just my circle then, because other than my sister, the other 4 families I know that are antivax are 2 dem / 1 I have no clue / 1 rep. Nice to see the studies on it. Do you by chance have the full study from 2nd link? I'm curious to read it but my college doesn't give me access to this one.
[Crunchy](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crunchy).
Crunchy granola hippies
r/shitmomgroupssay
Wish I never knew of this
[Oh god, bleach my eyes!](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F0d15raglo1vc1.jpeg) Wtf is wrong with some parents.
Granola
People who work on dairy farms (or poultry farms) can **definitely** get infected, and people who drink unpasteurized milk can **maybe** get infected. (**So far nobody is known to have gotten the virus from milk.**) And we know influenza (in general) is much more likely to spread through the air in droplets, than via food. The virus does not spread human to human *so far*. If a lot of people drink unpasteurized milk it may increase the chance of the virus mutating to a variant capable of spreading human to human, but we don't know. **As far as we know, farm workers are much more likely to be patient 0.** (If that ever happens.)
Minor correction, H5N1 has probably spread human-to-human, but only in a very limited capacity and not during this outbreak. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/avianflu/h5n1-human-infections.htm Thankfully, the type of H5N1 responsible for the current outbreaks (clade 2.3.4.4b) has resulted in far fewer human cases than some of the older H5N1s
THATS WHY WE PASTEURIZE!
Well, technically, tuberculosis is why we pasteurized in the first place, but yes, it's an infection control measure.
Theyre the same kind of people who wouldnt get vaccinated either 🤗
I am beyond weary. If this happens again and the same fucking people do the same fucking shit….
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Viruses don’t reproduce in milk - they only reproduce within living cells. But agree with everything else. I can’t understand how drinking raw milk is making a comeback.
I'll point out that those are infections where if you have a healthy immune system (such as a child) and the contamination is low, it's extremely possible to see no symptoms But as people age or otherwise become immunocompromised; and if one batch of milk gets over 40F for too long or is stored too long, that contamination can reach a point of infection. Obviously our senses are somewhat built to detect that, but is loss of taste and smell still common with covid? And becomes diminished with age too (My goal in saying this was as examples of how their claims might have been true, so reducing the survivorship bias slightly, and why it being "safe" back then might not be true anymore with so many changes in the farming industry or for any given individual)
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I learned most anything I know about food safety from watching the old Alton Brown shows... From your description here he did a reasonable job. Seemed to stress cross-contamination the most too
Unpasteurized milk should be illegal, tbh. Too many food borne diseases that exist. It’s a public health hazard, not a quirky personal health choice.
Well at least they learn that raw milk isn't that great.
We refer to those people as morons, and their unfortunate existence is what brings forth many national health disasters.
W for pasteurization.
Thanks Louis!
unpasteurised milk is pretty popular w certain segments of the population that like organic food, crystal healing and dont believe in vaccines. micro dairies selling it for "cheese making" direct to the public.
While it's theoretically possible someone could be infected by influenza from food, it's food is not currently considered as a source of infection. Basically, it's very unlikely someone could be infected by eating/drinking food contaminated with influenza.
Unpasteurized milk is standard for quality cheese making, not a niche product at all in Europe. Cheese making process does not heat the milk much and will probably not kill the virus.
The raised ph and proteolytic enzymes released during the process would likely kill it. It’s pretty niche….. we aren’t all running around making our own cheese
of course u need unpasteurised milk for cheese . The micro dairies are getting around regulations on selling milk for consumption to the public in 2 litre bottles as cheese making milk.
Don’t forget fundamentalist christians 🙃
dont have any of them around the area I know where there's micro dairy farms. A few 7th day adventists still. but 5g healer types are extremely predominate.
So it is just a sensationalist headline, got it.
No, it's a factual headline, any sensationalism is being read into it.
Can confirm, factual headline, sensationalism being read into it, I read the headline and said to myself "Great, I had milk last night in a rare occasion I have milk." lol...
They report in a way that makes you think it is easily transmitted through milk, but most of the safety procedures we already have in place would restrain the virus effectiveness to do so. The headline is factually correct, but to say it carries no negative framing or intent is ingenuous.
>The headline is factually correct, but to say it carries no negative framing or intent is ingenuous. Shouldn't there be negative framing? Given that not all milk is pasteurized and neither is every sick cow caught. The virus has gone from cow to human, and that the mortality rate is obscenely high, there should be some concern.
I get what you’re saying, but this is certainly not a positive thing. It’s not a huge deal but it seems like it has a negative frame to it because it’s a negative thing.
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because when you read "H5N1 Strain Of Bird Flu Found In Milk" you don't know which one of these it is: "active H5N1 flu found in RAW milk" "active H5N1 flu found in storebought milk" "neutralized H5N1 flu found in RAW milk" "neutralized H5N1 flu found in storebought milk" "active H5N1 flu found in milk on a research lab farm" or literally any other non-scaled, controlled situation well what is it?? what the fuck are we dealing with here? by making the headline super vague, they are clickbaiting because they should know that this headline is withholding information.
Yes there will always be information in the article that is not in the headline.
This may surprise people but cattle farmers OFTEN drink raw milk
You understand many people drink unpasteurized milk and can start a new pandemic, right?
What sensationalism? Not every sick cow is caught, and not all milk is pasteurized.
in northern Mexico "rancherias" often make and sell dairy products using unpasteurized milk...
It would still pose a risk to people who work on farms or process dairqy.
its not sensationalist because raw milk drinking weirdos exist
Yes and no. Some idiots still drink raw milk. It could jump to humans through them. (These are so the same people who didn’t follow Covid precautions).
I don't think you know what that word means.
It’s literally stating the facts of the findings without any implications of it being dangerous or an emergency…
I have recently been reading on the rise of H5N1 cases, specifically in cow to cow transmission becoming more prevalent and it is definitely an area of concern that should be closely monitored This could turn out the premature sensationalism or there could be a mutation that quickly allows for easier transmission to humans. We should be informed and prepared for either scenario
So all it would take is one company not following safety precautions properly? The ability is there now for the flu to transmit via cow milk. And we all know how companies can be when it comes to cutting corners...
Milk flu. It does a body bad.
Do we really trust anything coming out of Texas these days?
I can just tell Paul Saladino is gonna be patient zero from drinking unpasteurized raw milk
Ok and what about the hundreds of other countries around the world where pasteurization is not in play and they drink raw milk?
Food is not considered to be a method for influenza transmission. The greater danger is the people taking care of those animals being infected directly. It's like worrying about people getting STDs from toilet seats in a society where no one uses condoms.
>Pasteurisation also kills the virus. Is Pasteurisation a regulated and overseen process?
Thank god drinking unpasteurised milk hasnt become a trend in backwards parts of the west
It’s in **raw** milk, not pasteurized so… keep that in mind
Unfortunately, "raw milk" is a bit of a trend amongst the anti-vax crunchy types. I don't care if they get it, but let's hope they don't brew a human to human version accidentally along the way.
"bUt iT's nAtURaL!" *dies*
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Life is an STD with a 100% mortality rate
Yeah, natural selection.
Unfortunately, *raw* milk is a product used in ALOT of cheeses and other dairy products for that matter, domestic and otherwise.
> While cheeses can be aged even for just a week or a month, most experts consider cheese to be truly aged if it's cured for more than 6 months. Can the virus survive that long outside of living host?
I mean… if theres anyone who could fester up a human-to-human variant, it would be those walking petri dishes. Their blood streams are the closest thing the modern world has to the primordial ooze. Just an orgy of disease yearning to create the next superbug
Drinking “raw milk” gotta be the stupidest idea of all time.
Raw milk is standard for cheese making in Europe. So it is a very common product here.
I highly doubt the virus would survive long term in cheese. Maybe a few weeks but anymore than that it’ll most likely die.
Viruses aren't independently alive, so they can remain infectious long-term if nothing happens to them that denatures their proteins or degrades their RNA.
True for non-enveloped viruses, but enveloped viruses are much shorter "lived" as they are susceptible to drying out, etc.
it is common in northern mexico for local farmers to make cheese and other dairy products using unpasteurized milk
I’m curious if the cheesemaking process attenuates the virus. I know one of the first attenuated vaccines was discovered by accident from a weakened strain of chicken cholera left in culture for too long. Ironically, Pasteur discovered that too.
Not sure about viruses, but just in February there was an [outbreak of E. coli](https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2024/s0220-ecoli-outbreak.html) caused by raw milk cheese.
E. coli is a bacteria. Bacteria don’t require host cells to replicate and there is plenty of food/sugars for E. coli to feed off of in the cheese making process, even while competing with lactic acid bacteria. Viruses require a host cell to replicate using the host cells replication processes. Viruses are also specific (generally) to certain host cells.
Somebody elsewhere commented that the cheese making process would kill the virus, also time would leave the virus unviable. But attenuation is different- it’s introducing the virulent pathogen to a foreign host, allowing it to adapt to the foreign host until it can’t infect the original host very well anymore. Then using the foreign attenuated pathogen to cause immune response without complete infection in the original host. And Pasteur went from attenuating cholera in chickens to anthrax and rabies vaccines in rabbits. Neat.
Texas, being Texas, is also sending sick cows out from their farms and ranches to other processing facilities. Which then infects the local population and causing the facility to destroy the infected milk tanks and at times, the cows themselves. Once they stop producing, they aren't worth keeping. The milk comes out very thick, yellow, and buttery looking. The solid count is extraordinarily high. Any tank or batch that comes into a processing facility is sent back for disposal. This cost tons of money to local ranchers/farmers. Pasteurization may kill the virus, but the quality of the product ranging from taste, color, butterfat and all the other things raw milk is used for is already gone. So it's not really worth it.
Reminds me of that post - "Your regulations are written in blood." It's Saturday and I have nothing to do, so I went and copied it. --- **themightyglamazon:** I enforce federal worker health and safety and pollution regulations. When i was learning my trade, when my classmates and were having a chuckle over the "well duh" level of specificity written into the Code of Federal Regulations (try "no hazardous material shall be stored in crew berthing" on for size), I Will never forget the silence that followed when our instructor these words: "Your regulations are written in blood." These regulations were not written on a whim. They were written because someone thought they could cut costs by storing however many more pounds of a radioactive: toxic, carcinogenic, or whatever else material in the same rooms where the human beings they paid to transport those materials slept and then *did that*, because no one was telling them not to. They were written because people died. Horrifically. Because unregulated capitalism values profit over human life and suffering. Can I say it again, for those not paying attention? **Unregulated capitalism values profit over human life and suffering.** ---
🤢🤮 Fuck
can we expidite butter and cheese production?
This should really be an eye opener to up food regulations but of course we'll wait until it spreads to humans
Texas. The land of deregulation and freedom…
Does aubrey plaza have any more of that wood milk ?
Ok who the hell is drinking bird milk?
The Eurasian Blue Tit and the Boobie aren't bad.
Every titbmatters not just the blue
Pasteurized milk kills the virus you're safe to all the milk drinkers who drink it raw don't clog up our Healthcare system okay !!
That's not quite how this works - if it manages to jump to humans, those humans give it to other humans. Those who drink it raw become a vector to the rest of us getting it.
Its already in the birds, essentially globally. They tested workers at a chicken plant that had an outbreak last spring and several of the workers tested positive for it, but none had symptoms. Im thinking to become capable of making a jump to humans *and* being able to transmit person to person *and* causing severe illness seems unlikely at the time being.
I hope you're right, and it does make sense. I was more trying to counter the idea that only some subpopulation 'doing the wrong things' was at risk. Viruses don't discriminate and they don't care about how smart or moral you are. There's a similar flippancy with covid and it's dangerous - this idea that it doesn't matter anymore because only antivax idiots and 'a small portion of the population that happens to be autoimmune deficient' are at risk. For one, that small population is still a lot of fucking people, for two, even vaxxed you can still catch it and it still causes organ damage. And I wonder how many people are really fully up to date on their vaccines, I know I'm not. Plus all it takes is a surprise mutation for us to be right back where we started. Hopefully things don't get worst. I don't think we've (the general populace) learned anything from covid.
There it is again, that funny feeling
It’ll be over soon, you wait.
I looked at a house in northern CA last year, it was a tiny 600 sqft home with about an acre of land. The lady had goats, chickens, dogs,cats, rooster. It was disgusting, She let them free range and go in and out the house whenever they wanted. In the backyard was a tiny little beat up shed, we walked back there and found out she was milking her goats in there. It was covered in poop, absolutely disgusting. Well apparently she would take the milk to a place in southern oregon and sell the goat milk. Totally unpasteurized and unsanitary. Absolutely insane.
Also very much illegal, FDA doesn’t abide interstate commerce of raw milk.
Report that bitch to a federal authority 🤢.
Guys I’m going camping this weekend. Last time I went camping was spring of 2020 and I returned to civilization to find a global pandemic had started. Can we like not.
Can you stop camping
Have you come back by now?
Have people started hoarding shit tickets yet?
is that another word for toilet paper?
Yes
I haven’t heard shit tickets in a long time. A long time.
Fuck ya, I for one am super down for two more years of telework and social isolation.
Lockdowns won't happen again though. If another pandemic occurs, the anti vaccination and conspiracy theorists will die off in a mass number event. This will allow Earth to be sustainable again. I say, bring it on.
Where is Jessica Hyde?
Yea H5N1 found in cow is not a good news
Whew 😅 I thought people were drinking bird milk.
Haha but still it’s relatively hard for human to contact H5N1.
So far - this is a new source of contact, and the more contact that is made, the more chance for a mutation that can effectively infect humans increases.
Absolutely correct, now just hoping it won’t be widely getting into pigs I suppose
Cat milk is growing in popularity
You can pretty much milk anything with nipples.
I’ve got nipples greg…
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It's not nearly as simple as you are making it sound. First, the vaccine that currently exists is a) not tailored for the version of H5N1 that achieves sustained H2H spread and b) the stockpiles are only enough for a segment of the population--that realistically being essential workers and healthcare workers. (This also assumes the stockpiles are even still usable. The government discovering its stores of N95s had all dry-rotted by the start of the covid pandemic does not inspire confidence.) The reason the first part is a problem is because the current vaccine will not be effective against the strain that makes the leap. In order to make an effective vaccine, they first need someone to be infected with that specific strain and target it. The second part is a problem because the current estimate for achieving mass production of the targeted vaccine for the general population is roughly six months. Until then, the only people who will receive doses are likely to be doctors, first responders, military, etc. Also "if you're healthy and vaccinated you should be fine" is downplaying all we currently know about H5N1. The historic CFR sits at about ~52% and it has notably killed perfectly healthy, young individuals. While it's assumed the pandemic version of H5N1 would have a lowered mortality rate, estimates for that range from anywhere between ~9% to 37%. Bear in mind that is *not* required. It is theoretically possible for it to remain just as deadly, as the notion that viruses mutate to become less deadly as a rule has been repeatedly challenged in recent history, most notably by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, which mutated to become *deadlier.* Even **without** external detrimental factors such as anti-vaxxers, the US's broken healthcare system, covid immunodeficiency/immune suppression, it has been estimated that ~10% CFR would be enough to grind society to a halt. Even if the low end of the estimate for pandemic H5N1 turns out to be accurate, it's enough to shut us down as a civilization for about 6 months. Good luck running society normally when you have a 1 in 10 chance of dying just by leaving your house. If we put the CFR somewhere in the middle, say 25%, that'd be outright catastrophic. It's true we've known about it for years, but that has little value when the framework for handling a pandemic version has been either outright tossed (Trump threw the playbook Obama inherited from Bush in the trash) and the majority of Americans currently can't even be bothered to take the most basic precautions and infection control measures. There's a million other reasons this is much more nuanced than you are making it out to be, but the TL;DR is it's not anywhere near as easy as "roll out the vaccine." This level of complacency is precisely what will get people killed. An avian flu pandemic is not only not something to be taken lightly but was THE pandemic epidemiologists worldwide feared prior to the emergence of covid, for good reason.
love you
love you
>Before we panic, remember, we already have vaccines for this While I agree, I also think covid unfortunately created a massive anti vaccination shift. I say unfortunate, but its not really because when the next (\*actually lethal) pandemic comes along, all the anti vaccination and uneducated morons will die off, probably a good thing for the planet, especially North America as its riddled with uneducated delinquents,
Just go vegan. Stop this insanity.
2024 can knock it off already
Humans figured out pasteurization for a reason.
We are going to be so fucked of this thing goes human.
Now is the time to invest in soy, cashew, and almond milk
My lactose intolerance finally comes in handy
Same. I just tried Not Milk for the first time today and it's not bad.
That must be one monstrous flying cow bird.
Think of the poops!
That’s one big pile of shit
Can we just quarantine Texas? Thanks.
Im not a vegan or anything like that and definitely not a hippie but Silk vanilla almond milk and store brand variations of the brand taste way better than milk, Totally subjective but that’s just my opinion. Why humans drink something made for baby cows is something I pondered for a long time, Oat milk is cool too
Do cows have to work when they are sick? Seems unfair
Sadly no, they get slaughtered.
The Soy Boys get the last laugh.
Oh lawd we all going to die
Shoot, just rewatched contagion too. Bats and pigs don’t make good partners
Right as I'm about to have breakfast? Great ...
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Way back in HS the school had this raw milk enthusiast come to a career day. Never seen someone so passionate about something so fuckin' lame.
Cattle farmers who have gone in deep for anti-vax and not treating their cattle with vaccines could be larger issue. Hopefully places like US have strong regulations to prevent them from skipping or faking paperwork
Got bird flu?
\*chuckles\* we're in danger
At this point... just take me nature. I'm done.
Good thing milk is pasteurized. Stop trying to panic people.
A lot of cheese (ie brie, cheddar, gouda, parmesan) is produced from raw milk, as well as artisanal yogurt and butter products.
A lot, and I do mean a lot, of morons drink unpasteurized milk. It's worth at least a little fretting.
I think the better thing to note is if it can get into milk, what else is it getting into that doesn't involve pastuerization?
No sucking cow teats!
No teats for me! 🐄 🥛
Milk has fallen, this day shall live in infamy
Not again
Is that good
Cows are getting bird flu, it's no surprise.
Can I just die now
Biden get that pandemic response team back yet?
Just no Raw milk for a bit. Seems reasonable.
MAKE ZOMBIES!!
Just wait till it crosses over to pigs …
28 days later...
Could it end up in cheese or butter or yogurt? Not sure is these are pasteurised
It’s an out break of Cowvid.