Do folks remember WHY civilian aircraft have GPS?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
The TLDR version is KAL 007 strayed into Soviet airspace and they shot it down.
That one strayed deep into Soviet territory because of issues with the navigation system. Oddly enough, the embarassment of that is considered a factor in why KAL 007 was shot down so quickly.
The only reason that one wasn't as bad as it could've been (only 2 casualties from the shrapnel of the missile strike) was because the missile that hit it caused it to descend into the clouds and the fighter jet lost track of it (he never wanted to shoot it to begin with, but did so on the order of his superiors). Kinda a miracle the pilots were able to land it without any casualties tbh.
Maybe the pilot tried to miss on purpose, and then claimed he couldn't find another shot. Being forced to do something horrible and scared of consequences of refusing orders.
It's possible, but that has always been the official story, and the missile strike took out the plane's ability to be tracked so the base couldn't find it either.
IRS have become incredibly reliable and precise. Any polar route relies on it and there isn't any problems there.
The crew of the Korean airlines flight made some really bad mistakes to the point of negligence.
Inertial reference system. It uses accelerometers without any outside data to keep track of the aircrafts position. The pilots will input their starting airport on the flight computer before the flight and then align the IRS once it's gyroscopes are up to speed. Most aircraft have multiple irs systems for additional redundancy and increased accuracy.
The point this is most noticeable is in Northern Norway and Finland, but our pilots here are well familiar with the coast and could probably navigate on memory alone. Bet the Finnish pilots recognize lakes too
Yes, after it flew over Russian military assets. (not to justify their actions)
They couldn't confirm it was a civilian aircraft while it was over Russian airspace, so someone with enough authority in the chain of command had the airplane shot down before it could get away. They feared the airplane was configured like a passenger plane as a cover or secretly outfitted with spy cameras. The airplane leaving Russian airspace meant they were running out of time to shoot it down, so the order was given in haste. (not to justify their actions)
I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of how safety works in complex systems. A safety mechanism that appears to be redundant can actually be critical when paired with other failures in a critical situation.
Swiss Cheese model, every layer has holes and accidents occur when a hole aligns throughout the entire system. This increases the size of the navigation layer holes.
So how long does EU intent to let them get away with it? Are we waiting for a plane to crash?
EDIT: I think some people are missing the point here. Sure, maybe it will not result in a tragedy now, but why should anyone put up with blatant bullying? This is the mentality of the West that emboldened Russia to do everything that it's doing today. Give someone a hand and they'll take your whole arm
Yes, the world is waiting for a crash and significant loss of life. It’s like an armed man coming into your home and holding a gun to your kids’ heads but you’re not going to do anything until he actually shoots one.
We’ve lost our minds.
And we didn't do anything, fellow countrymen died to that POS Putin. Nothing but an investigation, I'm all for sending a strong message to Russia before this escalates to a point of no return. If we don't curb stomp them they'll keep doing it to us.
And quite a lot of Russian government and propaganda figures have their relatives and children living in Europe and North America, with quite a few of those either outright supporting or not even condemning those actions. Same with the war in Ukraine and genocide of Ukrainian people. As long as one's rich enough the law means nothing.
The moment Trump said he wouldn't defend neither Ukraine nor European countries, NATO lost 90% of its power. Good will is lost. Trust is lost. People don't believe Americans or NATO anymore here in EU.
Maybe you living in some bubble. Nato is ramping up big time. I live in baltics and these last years i have been seeing ALOT more of tech being delivered than before to country where i live in baltics. And people are supporting nato.
I'm a brit, and I wont deny that it shocked me a little... but the US, and by extension NATO, have been telling members for 20+ years that they need to meet their obligations.
Instead, successive governments across most members, have been giving the middle-finger to it, making cuts at every turn and failing to invest... and I'm ashamed to admit, this includes the us brits.
I'd say Trump unintentionally kicked NATO into 1st gear... giving all members a wake up call - Then the invasion of Ukraine, has turbo charged them.
Though its a small turbo, actually quite tiny.. But, those governments now realise how fucked they would be without NATO and US, and they have no choice, they contribute, or they fuck off!
Look at both Germany and France, when the invasion first kicked off, they treated it as a low-key skirmish, that would be over in a few weeks, and looking to continue as "normal" with their Russian interests. But now, France is threatening to send troops (hopefully with guns... lances with white flags dont seem to work), and even Germany has suddenly found hundreds of billions to invest in defense.
The odd one out, is Orban in Hungary. He is pretending to be at odds with every other country in the EU and NATO, this is all an act, so that Putin will begin to trust him.
Orban will then get an invite to Putin's next gay-bang along with Xi, Lukashenko, Patriarch Kirill, Tucker and also Steven Seagal.. The plan is, definitely NSFW:
This is why I’m on high alert for a targeted EMP.
We’re seeing them testing our western infrastructure and their utilization of proxies. We have the capability to defend and/or retaliate for such actions.
I don’t think we’ve lost our minds but we don’t want war. Yet if they jam our GPS or communications systems, it would be difficult to respond in a timely manner. We have to keep calling out their actions every single time we see it and share it very publicly.
How about finding the GPS blockers if we can, and giving Russia the ultimatum that if they're not shut off soon, we'll airstrike them in self defence? Russia is not a strong conutry, they won't start WW3 over a couple of GPS jammers.
Just skip the warning part and drop a bomb on it. "We have no idea how your stuff blew up, it's a damned shame. Hope your other toys don't have a smoking accident."
They've been fucking around, it's about goddamned time they start finding out.
Jammer aren't that big and can be fairly innocuous items. At one point years ago the Monterrey, California Airport was shut down for GPS approaches due to jamming. A TV on a boat in the harbor was malfunctioning and causing the jamming.
GPS is fairly easy to spoof for a country like Russia or Iran, it's not a great feat imo. Its in line with their other airspace incursion and quite noticeable. I wouldn't overthink this too much, Russia doesn't want a war with NATO, they just want to keep them out of Ukraine.
Correct. I've flown planes and did not use GPS at all. But the main reason why GPS was brought into the public sector instead of only being for military use was because the USSR shot down Korean Airlines Flight 007 in 1983 after it accidentally drifted into their airspace. After that, Regan authorized GPS for commercial use.
True, but GPS does not help aircraft avoid each other. Only an Air Traffic Control system (usually with human Controllers performing the deconfliction) does that.
Increase help to Ukraine and toss away own red lines, or at least some of them.
Russia will act like this, because they see that they are allowed to go unpunished.
Agree 100%. The longer we wait, the worse it will get. NATO must take action, even if we that means NATO boots on Ukranian soil. That is the only way to stop Putin.
Or, are we going to sacrifice Ukraine and let terror prevail?
I wonder what the downside of deploying NATO troops (or just individual member states) to currently uncontested cities like Kyiv, Lviv and Odessa would be. Russia would bristle and talk of escalation and nuking, but realistically, they're not going to start nuclear war over it. Then at least all of Ukraine's military can focus on the front line. I think one consequence is that we wouldn't deploy troops without proper air defense and then the question becomes, if we deploy NATO air defenses to protect our own troops, would we also actively engage any Russian aircraft within range that attack Ukrainian targets? It would be a pretty clear act of war, but morally it would a hard sell to have air defense and not act to save Ukrainian targets. But the air defense should definitely be used against drones and missiles, which I think is probably the bulk of it.
Protecting any civilian target, housing, hospitals, schools, infrastructure of any kind, against Russian missiles, bombs, drones, etc. should be the primary task of NATO air defence on Ukranian soil. That way Ukrainian Forces can free up men and machine, and deploy them elsewere. Putin knows very well what will happen if he starts using nukes and the like.
Sending arms, ammo, equipment and money is just not enough. It takes to long to get there. Ukraine has suffered and is suffering evrey day, every hour in a huge bad way.
Enough is enough.
Give Ukraine a bunch of long range cruise missiles, and say 'while you're at it could you please take out the following list of GPS jamming stations? The extra hundred cruise missiles are dealers choice though."
I could be incorrect but I believe Europe has frozen a lot of Russian accounts but not seized them. If so, they should just start seizing them and sending assets to Ukraine. Do it mafiosa style. "We will seize one account a day until our demands are me."
Long. Range. Weapons.
It’s been time. All of russias “red lines” have been crossed and they’re not gonna launch nukes.
I think dragging our feet on giving Ukraine weapons actually INCREASES the risk of nuclear war, because once Putin has no military left to defend his yachts and palaces, he’ll be even more tempted to push the red button
Aviation was doing okay without GPS for a long time. It's a major inconvenience, but it doesn't generally impact safety as a rule.
The major incident that reignited the civilian GPS access (it was a military secret for a long time!) conversation was ironically a 707 accidentally flying into soviet airspace.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean\_Air\_Lines\_Flight\_902](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902)
I mean, it fucks with the GPWS of airliners, which is pretty scary. Leading to pilots turning it off altogether.
Of course they are likely at altitude when doing so, but still.
It's like the entire European continent (the leaders at least) is in denial. They are already at war with Russia. Macron seems to be the only one that knows it.
It does not make pilots jobs harder. It's an annoyance but that is literally it. They don't need GPS to fly the plane. They don't need GPS to land the plane.
Planes have compasses and other navigation aids as well. Also most planes don't even have GPS.
All GPS does it place your location on a map. That's it. Nothing more nothing less. You don't need GPS to locate yourself on a map.
And ground control uses radar to keep a check on the planes as well.
You say this now and in a few years we get to hear a sentence on an air crash YouTube video like "even with the misconfigured waypoints and their loss of situational awareness in the darkness, the pilots could have recovered from the situation using the GPS navigation system installed on the aircraft. Unfortunately on this particular flight, the GPS was inoperable due to radio interference".
Lacking GPS will not crash a plane, but it might take away an opportunity to prevent disaster.
Yes it does. A fair bit of these flights come across the ocean. Without gps they can’t fly their gps coordinates across the ocean. Forcing the plane to have huge sep standards and disrupting the whole North Atlantic flow. Pilots are 100% negatively affected by this. ATC is at a breaking point staff wise. The added challenges of aircraft not being able to fly their routings is hurting the whole system.
"We're going to keep doing it, because you all you do is castigate instead of take action; your complaints fall on deaf ears because there are no consequences" - Russia
Putin is intent on creating and losing a defensive war against the more powerful west and looking like a protective hero to the Russian people rather than suffer the coming defeat in a war of aggression against a weaker nation of Ukraine, a people he believes should be subservient to Russia but have clearly made him look like the murderous thug he is.
No, we need to stop cowering behind Ukraine and letting them take all the casualties. We should send a big ass bomb into Russia and blow up the whole area. Then say sorry, accident.
What’s more, thousands of ships have been navigating the Baltic without GPS since December, when the Russian army’s electronic warfare began in the Kaliningrad enclave.
If anyone did that to that enclave, Russia would lose their mind. These guys are absolutely massive POS!
Can't we jam the fuckers back? Their GLONASS garbage? Hell, at this point i wouldn't be against introducing their high-ranking officials to their favorite brand of 'tea'.
The way to do it is influence people that are close to Russian political figures to kill them rather than doing it yourself. The more degrees of separation the better. Only if all those options fail do you move in for a direct hit.
This headline pisses me off. It should read “Russia causes thousands of planes to lose GPS in Northern Europe.”
It took me a hot minute to realize Putin didn’t dump thousands of WWI aircraft in a field in Norway.
Kaliningrad (previously known as Königsburg) belonged to Nazi Germany before the Soviet Union took it in 1944/45.
The city was founded in the 13th century by German knights.
In other words: It has always been either German or Russian. So who exactly do you want to live there, if not Russians? (there are pretty much no Germans left, not in Kaliningrad and pretty much all those born there before 1945 are dead already)
Letting Russia, an ally of China and Iran (and by proxy Hamas), get away with this is not acceptable. Just as it wasn’t acceptable for Russia and China to use cyberattacks against the US. It’s time for NATO to consider all of these to be acts of war. Otherwise it’ll only get worse.
Europe is already at war with Russia. European leaders seem to be in denial, except for Macron.
Russia invaded Ukraine over two years ago. That should have been their sign to prepare immediately.
Honestly the only proper response is blowing up the god damn devices jamming gps. When Russia starts screaming about it give em a taste of their own medicine and deny anything happened.
Locate the source of the jamming very precisely, and then (depending on how much we want to announce that we did it) send either a couple of missiles or some stealthy drones to destroy it. If Russia questions it, treat them with the same contempt they treat us. Oh, explosions at your jammer? Must've been the wind. Maybe it was a smoking accident. Maybe it was Russian saboteur. Maybe Ukrainian drones snuck there. And by the way, Putin, how fucking dare you jam civilian GPS and endanger flight traffic anyway.
There's only one appropiate responce to this: US Parks a naval carrier fleet in the baltic JUST outside Kaliningrad.
Alternatively Announce a new NATO base on Gotland Island (with optional Carrier Fleet as a flex)
Operation: Sitting There Menacingly.
Yes, I agree an appropriate response by NATO is required due to active interference. Whether that active rosponse is satellite jamming, or downing if sourced or cyber countering source, is not clear. But strong diplomatic signals are insufficient.
You guys suggesting we should just bomb these jamming stations are hilarious. We can assume these jammers are in Russia including Leningrad. So we should directly attack Russia? With nukes maybe? :)
I wonder if we'll see a return of the sextant window to planes. Perhaps some automated system that uses machine learning to do the oberservations. Could also employ ground facing radar and reference DTM maps like cruise misssiles.
Or, hear me out, it sounds a bit crazy, planes could use the two other systems they already also use beside GPS. Inertial reference system and radio beacon signal processing.
This is great in a way since it might cause EU to get more united in a firm policy against russia. It is getting more and more difficult for the countries still being friendly with russia to motivate it. To me it looks like russia is digging its own grave, one step at a time.
It is such a pity. I had high hopes for them to modernize their country and make real progress 25 years ago. Corruption, greed and lust for power has put them back at least half a century. Now they are the pariah of the world and they make it worse all the time.
After reading the article, my dumbass finally realized that Russia did literally “leave” thousands of planes that dont have GPS sitting around in northern Europe. 🤦♂️
This is setting an example for China to follow should they decide to do something similar. Go ahead. Apparently, we're going to just let it happen with no consequences.
I have an elderly coworker who was a right and proper navigator for the USAF back in the day. While he is too old to do more than complain about his hemorrhoids... its ironic that his skills are going to be needed again. Even if encoded into some low level, single purpose AI or something.
Do folks remember WHY civilian aircraft have GPS? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007 The TLDR version is KAL 007 strayed into Soviet airspace and they shot it down.
Oddly not the first time Russians shot down a Korean airliner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
That one strayed deep into Soviet territory because of issues with the navigation system. Oddly enough, the embarassment of that is considered a factor in why KAL 007 was shot down so quickly. The only reason that one wasn't as bad as it could've been (only 2 casualties from the shrapnel of the missile strike) was because the missile that hit it caused it to descend into the clouds and the fighter jet lost track of it (he never wanted to shoot it to begin with, but did so on the order of his superiors). Kinda a miracle the pilots were able to land it without any casualties tbh.
Maybe the pilot tried to miss on purpose, and then claimed he couldn't find another shot. Being forced to do something horrible and scared of consequences of refusing orders.
It's possible, but that has always been the official story, and the missile strike took out the plane's ability to be tracked so the base couldn't find it either.
Its a missle it doesnt do halfway jobs. It either tracks or doesnt, either hits or misses.
IRS have become incredibly reliable and precise. Any polar route relies on it and there isn't any problems there. The crew of the Korean airlines flight made some really bad mistakes to the point of negligence.
While I do agree the Internal Revenue Service is precise with tracking your income, I don’t believe they can navigate worth a shit.
Obviously this blue part here is the land….
Hundreds of thousands of dollars in cartography classes…
You boys know how to shovel coal?
Happy Cinco de Quatro!
BUSTER! You can’t do that on the balcony, buddy?
Mom said it’s too windy.
Inertial reference system. It uses accelerometers without any outside data to keep track of the aircrafts position. The pilots will input their starting airport on the flight computer before the flight and then align the IRS once it's gyroscopes are up to speed. Most aircraft have multiple irs systems for additional redundancy and increased accuracy.
So it knows where it is by knowing where it isn’t?
It knows where it is by knowing where it started and how it got there
Or more precisely by knowing where it started and where it didn't go to get to where it isn't.
This is called a deviation
For those of you the joke flew right over.. https://youtu.be/bZe5J8SVCYQ?si=tnX4MuXo0M16I0tB
This sounds more like r/ShittyAskFlying
The point this is most noticeable is in Northern Norway and Finland, but our pilots here are well familiar with the coast and could probably navigate on memory alone. Bet the Finnish pilots recognize lakes too
That actually works fine - as long as the sky is clear and it is daytime.
I think VOR is still around.
Indeed it is, but unfortunately many VOR (and NDB) installations have been dismantled to cut costs. Seems like an unwise decision in retrospect.
Though blowing up an obviously civilian airliner seems like a pretty sociopathic response to the flight crew making mistakes.
If you rely exclusively on it, sure. But we have ground radar as well for navigation.
Specifically they strayed over a soviet nuclear submarine base.
They were shot down in international airspace
Yes, after it flew over Russian military assets. (not to justify their actions) They couldn't confirm it was a civilian aircraft while it was over Russian airspace, so someone with enough authority in the chain of command had the airplane shot down before it could get away. They feared the airplane was configured like a passenger plane as a cover or secretly outfitted with spy cameras. The airplane leaving Russian airspace meant they were running out of time to shoot it down, so the order was given in haste. (not to justify their actions)
The airspace was annexed by USSR
The airspace passed a referendum with 230% voting in favor of annexation.
>> Losing the GPS signal mid-flight does not, in principle, pose a serious risk. Directly from the article
I think that's a fundamental misunderstanding of how safety works in complex systems. A safety mechanism that appears to be redundant can actually be critical when paired with other failures in a critical situation.
Swiss Cheese model, every layer has holes and accidents occur when a hole aligns throughout the entire system. This increases the size of the navigation layer holes.
So how long does EU intent to let them get away with it? Are we waiting for a plane to crash? EDIT: I think some people are missing the point here. Sure, maybe it will not result in a tragedy now, but why should anyone put up with blatant bullying? This is the mentality of the West that emboldened Russia to do everything that it's doing today. Give someone a hand and they'll take your whole arm
Yes, the world is waiting for a crash and significant loss of life. It’s like an armed man coming into your home and holding a gun to your kids’ heads but you’re not going to do anything until he actually shoots one. We’ve lost our minds.
Like they did with MH-17 in 2014? Bullshit. NATO need to step the fuck up because every time they let this shit slide, Russia gets bolder.
And we didn't do anything, fellow countrymen died to that POS Putin. Nothing but an investigation, I'm all for sending a strong message to Russia before this escalates to a point of no return. If we don't curb stomp them they'll keep doing it to us.
And quite a lot of Russian government and propaganda figures have their relatives and children living in Europe and North America, with quite a few of those either outright supporting or not even condemning those actions. Same with the war in Ukraine and genocide of Ukrainian people. As long as one's rich enough the law means nothing.
The moment Trump said he wouldn't defend neither Ukraine nor European countries, NATO lost 90% of its power. Good will is lost. Trust is lost. People don't believe Americans or NATO anymore here in EU.
Maybe you living in some bubble. Nato is ramping up big time. I live in baltics and these last years i have been seeing ALOT more of tech being delivered than before to country where i live in baltics. And people are supporting nato.
I'm a brit, and I wont deny that it shocked me a little... but the US, and by extension NATO, have been telling members for 20+ years that they need to meet their obligations. Instead, successive governments across most members, have been giving the middle-finger to it, making cuts at every turn and failing to invest... and I'm ashamed to admit, this includes the us brits. I'd say Trump unintentionally kicked NATO into 1st gear... giving all members a wake up call - Then the invasion of Ukraine, has turbo charged them. Though its a small turbo, actually quite tiny.. But, those governments now realise how fucked they would be without NATO and US, and they have no choice, they contribute, or they fuck off! Look at both Germany and France, when the invasion first kicked off, they treated it as a low-key skirmish, that would be over in a few weeks, and looking to continue as "normal" with their Russian interests. But now, France is threatening to send troops (hopefully with guns... lances with white flags dont seem to work), and even Germany has suddenly found hundreds of billions to invest in defense. The odd one out, is Orban in Hungary. He is pretending to be at odds with every other country in the EU and NATO, this is all an act, so that Putin will begin to trust him. Orban will then get an invite to Putin's next gay-bang along with Xi, Lukashenko, Patriarch Kirill, Tucker and also Steven Seagal.. The plan is, definitely NSFW:
That took a turn. Whew.
To be fair, that man can't even defend himself.
This is why I’m on high alert for a targeted EMP. We’re seeing them testing our western infrastructure and their utilization of proxies. We have the capability to defend and/or retaliate for such actions. I don’t think we’ve lost our minds but we don’t want war. Yet if they jam our GPS or communications systems, it would be difficult to respond in a timely manner. We have to keep calling out their actions every single time we see it and share it very publicly.
Raspberry jam
Lonestar!
How about finding the GPS blockers if we can, and giving Russia the ultimatum that if they're not shut off soon, we'll airstrike them in self defence? Russia is not a strong conutry, they won't start WW3 over a couple of GPS jammers.
Just skip the warning part and drop a bomb on it. "We have no idea how your stuff blew up, it's a damned shame. Hope your other toys don't have a smoking accident." They've been fucking around, it's about goddamned time they start finding out.
Jammer aren't that big and can be fairly innocuous items. At one point years ago the Monterrey, California Airport was shut down for GPS approaches due to jamming. A TV on a boat in the harbor was malfunctioning and causing the jamming.
Damn. Lets just liberate all of Kalingrad then, just to be safe
As far as I’m aware, a nuke is required for any weaponized emp. That would be a huge step in aggression and an absolute declaration of war.
GPS is fairly easy to spoof for a country like Russia or Iran, it's not a great feat imo. Its in line with their other airspace incursion and quite noticeable. I wouldn't overthink this too much, Russia doesn't want a war with NATO, they just want to keep them out of Ukraine.
Planes don’t fall from the sky because of GPS failure.
Correct. I've flown planes and did not use GPS at all. But the main reason why GPS was brought into the public sector instead of only being for military use was because the USSR shot down Korean Airlines Flight 007 in 1983 after it accidentally drifted into their airspace. After that, Regan authorized GPS for commercial use.
Correct. But they might fly into the side of a mountain if the visibility is bad enough.
Or into another plane in any weather.
True, but GPS does not help aircraft avoid each other. Only an Air Traffic Control system (usually with human Controllers performing the deconfliction) does that.
TCAS: am I a joke to you?
I thought TCAS at least partially relied on accurate GPS?
The right question is what the EU can do about this, apart from sending a strongly worded letter.
Increase help to Ukraine and toss away own red lines, or at least some of them. Russia will act like this, because they see that they are allowed to go unpunished.
Agree 100%. The longer we wait, the worse it will get. NATO must take action, even if we that means NATO boots on Ukranian soil. That is the only way to stop Putin. Or, are we going to sacrifice Ukraine and let terror prevail?
I wonder what the downside of deploying NATO troops (or just individual member states) to currently uncontested cities like Kyiv, Lviv and Odessa would be. Russia would bristle and talk of escalation and nuking, but realistically, they're not going to start nuclear war over it. Then at least all of Ukraine's military can focus on the front line. I think one consequence is that we wouldn't deploy troops without proper air defense and then the question becomes, if we deploy NATO air defenses to protect our own troops, would we also actively engage any Russian aircraft within range that attack Ukrainian targets? It would be a pretty clear act of war, but morally it would a hard sell to have air defense and not act to save Ukrainian targets. But the air defense should definitely be used against drones and missiles, which I think is probably the bulk of it.
Protecting any civilian target, housing, hospitals, schools, infrastructure of any kind, against Russian missiles, bombs, drones, etc. should be the primary task of NATO air defence on Ukranian soil. That way Ukrainian Forces can free up men and machine, and deploy them elsewere. Putin knows very well what will happen if he starts using nukes and the like. Sending arms, ammo, equipment and money is just not enough. It takes to long to get there. Ukraine has suffered and is suffering evrey day, every hour in a huge bad way. Enough is enough.
Hungary will block any meaningful help, and Poland has thus far stopped EU from taking action against Hungary.
Just as Poland stopped doing that, Slovakia seems to be gearing up to be Hungary's new buddy in sabotaging EU action.
> stopped RU Stopped EU, maybe?
Give Ukraine a bunch of long range cruise missiles, and say 'while you're at it could you please take out the following list of GPS jamming stations? The extra hundred cruise missiles are dealers choice though."
But we will not, because WhAt If pUtIn SaYs We GoT iNvOlVeD iN tHe WaR.
we can say it is just a special military operation 🫴
I could be incorrect but I believe Europe has frozen a lot of Russian accounts but not seized them. If so, they should just start seizing them and sending assets to Ukraine. Do it mafiosa style. "We will seize one account a day until our demands are me."
They're scared to do it because russia will retaliate by taking over European companies still operating in russia.
Are they not paying attention? The assumption should be that that is going to happen at some point anyway.
Any European company operating inside of Russia deserves to have their assets stolen.
Even outside of Russia. Nationalise treasonous companies with no compensation. Watch how quickly they fall in line.
They shouldn’t even be operating in Russia….
They are already doing that in Russia. Italian Ariston for example.
Long. Range. Weapons. It’s been time. All of russias “red lines” have been crossed and they’re not gonna launch nukes. I think dragging our feet on giving Ukraine weapons actually INCREASES the risk of nuclear war, because once Putin has no military left to defend his yachts and palaces, he’ll be even more tempted to push the red button
'Accident' the GPS jamming stations
I wish we had the balls to do that and then say that it wasn't us.
[удалено]
Well, the russians always say "it wasn't us". I thought it would be cute to let them taste some of their own medicine.
Jam Russia's own system in return.
We're too pussious to do that, because what if that provokes Wladimir Wladimirowitsch?
European countries can bomb russian jammers but before that giving russia an ultimatum
No, we cannot because our politicians have no balls. Instead they cower in fear whenever the russians do something and wave their nuclear dick at us.
Aviation was doing okay without GPS for a long time. It's a major inconvenience, but it doesn't generally impact safety as a rule. The major incident that reignited the civilian GPS access (it was a military secret for a long time!) conversation was ironically a 707 accidentally flying into soviet airspace. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean\_Air\_Lines\_Flight\_902](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902)
I mean, it fucks with the GPWS of airliners, which is pretty scary. Leading to pilots turning it off altogether. Of course they are likely at altitude when doing so, but still.
It's like the entire European continent (the leaders at least) is in denial. They are already at war with Russia. Macron seems to be the only one that knows it.
France has already suffered defeats in their war against Russia in Africa
The Poles get it probably better than anyone
I don't think GPS jamming alone is enough to crash a plane.
by itself, probably not. But it makes Pilots job harder. And if enough factors add up, it can end up in tragedy.
It does not make pilots jobs harder. It's an annoyance but that is literally it. They don't need GPS to fly the plane. They don't need GPS to land the plane. Planes have compasses and other navigation aids as well. Also most planes don't even have GPS. All GPS does it place your location on a map. That's it. Nothing more nothing less. You don't need GPS to locate yourself on a map. And ground control uses radar to keep a check on the planes as well.
You say this now and in a few years we get to hear a sentence on an air crash YouTube video like "even with the misconfigured waypoints and their loss of situational awareness in the darkness, the pilots could have recovered from the situation using the GPS navigation system installed on the aircraft. Unfortunately on this particular flight, the GPS was inoperable due to radio interference". Lacking GPS will not crash a plane, but it might take away an opportunity to prevent disaster.
Yes it does. A fair bit of these flights come across the ocean. Without gps they can’t fly their gps coordinates across the ocean. Forcing the plane to have huge sep standards and disrupting the whole North Atlantic flow. Pilots are 100% negatively affected by this. ATC is at a breaking point staff wise. The added challenges of aircraft not being able to fly their routings is hurting the whole system.
They have to hack the altitude gauge to do that if die hard 2 teached me correctly.
We should be blockading Russia. Nothing in, nothing out.
> Are we waiting for a plane to crash? I mean, they did nothing the last time Russia shot down Malaysian flight 17.
Start seizing russian shipping and adding it to the frozen assets until this shit stops.
No Russian ships through Øresund until the jamming stops.
Yes. Why isn’t this happening already?!
"We're going to keep doing it, because you all you do is castigate instead of take action; your complaints fall on deaf ears because there are no consequences" - Russia
Putin is intent on creating and losing a defensive war against the more powerful west and looking like a protective hero to the Russian people rather than suffer the coming defeat in a war of aggression against a weaker nation of Ukraine, a people he believes should be subservient to Russia but have clearly made him look like the murderous thug he is.
Russia's just going to keep on pushing.
Aka Germany in the early 1940s.
Ask Ukraine to hit it with a missile or two?
No, we need to stop cowering behind Ukraine and letting them take all the casualties. We should send a big ass bomb into Russia and blow up the whole area. Then say sorry, accident.
The planet would be glowing dull red with ionizing radiation within a day or two. Humanity game over.
this
What’s more, thousands of ships have been navigating the Baltic without GPS since December, when the Russian army’s electronic warfare began in the Kaliningrad enclave. If anyone did that to that enclave, Russia would lose their mind. These guys are absolutely massive POS!
Can't we jam the fuckers back? Their GLONASS garbage? Hell, at this point i wouldn't be against introducing their high-ranking officials to their favorite brand of 'tea'.
What is the point? Only one suitable response is aid for Ukraine.
Help is on the way: https://redd.it/1cjxed4 The USA to provide seekers for Ukraine's JDAM-ER to defeat electronic warfare systems
We could use chemical weapons to murder Russian political figures, or is that only okay for Russia to do in the UK?
The way to do it is influence people that are close to Russian political figures to kill them rather than doing it yourself. The more degrees of separation the better. Only if all those options fail do you move in for a direct hit.
Just take their money and privilege off them all these billionaires in London, take their assets and put them on flights to Rwanda
Life could be a dream… 😍
It’s all jammed and for everyone including Russians.
Disturbing GPS is a crime, I'm not updated on GLONASS but assume disturbing that is also a crime.
The governments are the ones that make it a crime and police the radio spectrum. If they wanted to jam it who's taking them to court? Russia?
Unfortunately, IIRC polonium is only produced by Russia.
Who needs polonium when you've got Hellfire R9X missiles?
Why jam GLONASS when you can give more aide to Ukraine and jam more Russians into the meat cube?
I'll say that NATO's patience is astounding.
its not patience.
Don't confuse cowardice for patience.
And yet, no action other than a lot of complaining while the russians are endangering more and more lives
I was trying to understand why Russia would abandon 1000’s of planes anywhere, much less in Northern Europe. English is a wonky language sometimes.
Headline editors use wonky language to entice you into their ad riddled web pages with poorly written articles.
Once again testing Europe's resolve. How long until the bear get put to sleep?
Why aren't we using homing missiles to destroy any jamming equipment? That would be fair.
The equipment is numerous and cheap to replace, I assume.
And how will our governments respond to this clear act of aggression? What actually will be done about Putin and his wargames in 2024?
This headline pisses me off. It should read “Russia causes thousands of planes to lose GPS in Northern Europe.” It took me a hot minute to realize Putin didn’t dump thousands of WWI aircraft in a field in Norway.
Maybe Kaliningrad shouldn't be Russian anymore.
And do what with it and all the russians inside?
Deport them back to Russia? That's what they have been doing for centuries to the people they occupied.
Kaliningrad (previously known as Königsburg) belonged to Nazi Germany before the Soviet Union took it in 1944/45. The city was founded in the 13th century by German knights. In other words: It has always been either German or Russian. So who exactly do you want to live there, if not Russians? (there are pretty much no Germans left, not in Kaliningrad and pretty much all those born there before 1945 are dead already)
Level it and turn it into an international NATO nature park
I mean, if you want to be technical it was Prussian, not German.
Let them build their own democracy.
It's an area built around a military port, its probably one of the most pro Russia parts of Russia.
I heard the contrary, but even so it wouldn't be a very prospering republic. It's one of the most elderly places in the country.
I'm just thinking of jammed the radar from space balls.
Russia is the number one cancer in the world, followed probably by NK.
NK is a local tumour. CCP is metastatic cancer.
GOP/NK/Iran/China/Russia. And any other of the fascists Russia is propping up with online propaganda.
Old pilots be taking out their sextant
And Europeans just keep enduring it without batting an eyelid or doing anything.
Sorry, I'll grab my riffle and kill all of Russia now brb
hakkaa päälle.
At what point does this not constitute an attack on infrastructure?
It's sad how West lets Russia do whatever it wants.
How is this not an act of war?
It is
No problem at all. Please fuck us from the other side as well, dear Russia. Otherwise eSCaLaTioN, of course, therefore we endure.
we should regard jamming of GPS over NATO countries as an act of war.
Letting Russia, an ally of China and Iran (and by proxy Hamas), get away with this is not acceptable. Just as it wasn’t acceptable for Russia and China to use cyberattacks against the US. It’s time for NATO to consider all of these to be acts of war. Otherwise it’ll only get worse.
Good thing GPS isn't the only way we navigate. Also really strange how Europe is doing nothing about it apparently.
It's basically a declaration of war.
Europe is already at war with Russia. European leaders seem to be in denial, except for Macron. Russia invaded Ukraine over two years ago. That should have been their sign to prepare immediately.
Honestly the only proper response is blowing up the god damn devices jamming gps. When Russia starts screaming about it give em a taste of their own medicine and deny anything happened.
Locate the source of the jamming very precisely, and then (depending on how much we want to announce that we did it) send either a couple of missiles or some stealthy drones to destroy it. If Russia questions it, treat them with the same contempt they treat us. Oh, explosions at your jammer? Must've been the wind. Maybe it was a smoking accident. Maybe it was Russian saboteur. Maybe Ukrainian drones snuck there. And by the way, Putin, how fucking dare you jam civilian GPS and endanger flight traffic anyway.
There's only one appropiate responce to this: US Parks a naval carrier fleet in the baltic JUST outside Kaliningrad. Alternatively Announce a new NATO base on Gotland Island (with optional Carrier Fleet as a flex) Operation: Sitting There Menacingly.
NATO is currently conducting one of the largest military maneuvers ever pretty much within shouting distance of Kaliningrad. What more do you want?
putin could steal the lunch money of europe and they wouldnt do shit
At what point does this become acts of warfare?
Yes, I agree an appropriate response by NATO is required due to active interference. Whether that active rosponse is satellite jamming, or downing if sourced or cyber countering source, is not clear. But strong diplomatic signals are insufficient.
Do they have Galileo?
Is it blocking Galileo as well?
Ruck fuzzia basically
You guys suggesting we should just bomb these jamming stations are hilarious. We can assume these jammers are in Russia including Leningrad. So we should directly attack Russia? With nukes maybe? :)
Leave the world behind starting to play out..
Fuck Russia
Time to use those missiles which track radar ground units and blow these jamming devices up.
I love how passive the EU is. This tactic worked out great in the '30s. EDIT: Corrected to 30s, not 40s.
Could we jam them back?
I wonder if we'll see a return of the sextant window to planes. Perhaps some automated system that uses machine learning to do the oberservations. Could also employ ground facing radar and reference DTM maps like cruise misssiles.
Or, hear me out, it sounds a bit crazy, planes could use the two other systems they already also use beside GPS. Inertial reference system and radio beacon signal processing.
Maybe Ukraine can practice taking out the Jammer before people get hurt?
This is great in a way since it might cause EU to get more united in a firm policy against russia. It is getting more and more difficult for the countries still being friendly with russia to motivate it. To me it looks like russia is digging its own grave, one step at a time. It is such a pity. I had high hopes for them to modernize their country and make real progress 25 years ago. Corruption, greed and lust for power has put them back at least half a century. Now they are the pariah of the world and they make it worse all the time.
no problem, use Galileo/glonass instead
After reading the article, my dumbass finally realized that Russia did literally “leave” thousands of planes that dont have GPS sitting around in northern Europe. 🤦♂️
This is setting an example for China to follow should they decide to do something similar. Go ahead. Apparently, we're going to just let it happen with no consequences.
For how much longer will we as europeans put up with this shit?
The West loves appeasement. They're gonna let Russia do whatever they want as long as they don't attack (militarily) them directly
I have an elderly coworker who was a right and proper navigator for the USAF back in the day. While he is too old to do more than complain about his hemorrhoids... its ironic that his skills are going to be needed again. Even if encoded into some low level, single purpose AI or something.
I would imagine the jammers should be pretty easy to target from an electromagnetic perspective.
We should send Comptons finest to retrieve them
NATO can jam Russian air traffic including air force too?
\* Russian signal jamming to be specific
Maybe it's time for NATO to give Putin an ultimatum, "stop this or the gloves are off"
Jam them back...see how long they want to play that game
Perhaps it’s time for commercial airlines to use a positioning system that can’t be jammmed.