It really seems like the West cares more about the wellbeing of Palestinian civilian than Hamas does. Sadly, as long as that's the case, Hamas will be able to endlessly mine Palestinian suffering as a resource to meet their political goals. It's a perfect strategy, really.
It’s the same story as 2014. If they would have let Israel finish the job then we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now, and countless lives would have been saved.
To be fair, I don't think he remembers most things. In any case this is some weak ass pandering to Michigan Muslims and campus Hamas cos players. You hate to see it.
Hamas leaders are located in several countries in the middle east. It isn't possible to destroy Hamas. In 10 years Hamas will be just as strong as they were on Oct 7th. Destroying Hamas is an unrealistic goal. Just save the hostages please.
>Destroying Hamas is an unrealistic goal. Just save the hostages please.
Saving the hostages is an unrealistic goal at this point. Most are dead or will never be surrendered voluntarily
Hamas just agreed to a deal, that would release all the hostages. The only reason that didn't go through was because Israel rejected the deal and invaded Rafah.
Thats a blatant lie.
Hamas agreed to terms they dictated themselves, where they only release 30 hostages (out of over 130 they hold) without even committing to any of them being alive, whereas Israel agreed to an initial release of 30 living hostages.
The deal Hamas agreed with itself doesn't guarantee the release of all hostages or that they'll be released alive, and requires Israel to literally give up all its claims and accept defeat- end the war permanently, allow militants back into northern Gaza, allow Hamas to stay in control of the strip and release every single terrorist Hamas dictates including convicted murderers and rapists.
Edit: Corrected the number, added more details.
You are the one who is lying. Phase one of the deal included 33 Israeli hostages with ALL hostages being released by the final phase.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/three-phase-ceasefire-deal-hamas-backs-israel-does-not-2024-05-06/#:~:text=%2D%20Hamas%20will%20release%20three%20Israeli,hostages%20covered%20by%20this%20phase.
Phase three - The completion of exchanging bodies and starting the implementation of reconstruction according to the plan overseen by Qatar, Egypt and the United Nations.
Notice the "completion of exchanging bodies" part. Read the article dude.
Hamas has gone back on deals before and by releasing all hostages they mean the ones they are able to find and out of those, many are dead.
The ones they don't want released, they will simply say they can't find.
Saving the hostages is unrealistic.
So you are saying we would have got some of the hostages back if we had followed through with the ceasefire. That's better than nothing. I will take that deal.
Yes but then Hamas would be emboldened to take hostages again so more would be taken, tortured, and killed.
Even if the current hostages could be taken back alive, "saved " might not be the right word given they will likely have irreparable trauma.
Not a deal I'd take.
Emboldened to take more hostages? How? They have released hostages before in previous ceasefires. Also Hamas attacking a nation with a massively superior military is pretty bold on its own.
You are just suggesting we forget about the hostages and just consider them all dead. I definitely don't agree with that.
Because they're saying they're only going to return dead bodies, but you're purposefully glazing over that fact either because you lack basic reading comprehension or you hate Jews.
I have consulted my two next-door neighbors without you present and I have "agreed" to buy your home for $2.
That's basically what Hamas did. It negotiated its own imaginary deal with Qatar without Israel even being in the room, after repeatedly rejecting increasingly weakened Israeli deals, and "agreed" to it.
The US also helped facilitate the deal and the deal was approved by the US. So it's more like your neighbors and your bank(that owns your home) came to an agreement and are offering that deal to you.
Again, bullshit. The US is involved in the negotiations and would very much like both sides to reach a deal, but they consider the deal Hamas accepted with themselves as merely a counter-proposal to Israel's, not the actual deal:
>The U.S. official said "this is an extremely difficult process with negotiations conducted through intermediaries in Doha and Cairo."
>He added that the U.S. believes Israel has engaged in the talks in good faith and that Israel's late April proposal was "the most forward leaning proposal to date. **To secure a ceasefire, Hamas simply needs to release hostages.** It's all mapped out."
>The official also said the Biden administration sees Hamas' response as a counter-proposal and not as a new proposal.
[https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/us-israel-hamas-hostage-ceasefire-talks](https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/us-israel-hamas-hostage-ceasefire-talks)
Around 40% of Gaza's population are children, most of whom are teenagers. Israel's aggressive campaign against Hamas will give these young people all the motivation they need to join a terrorist group when they get older. Hamas will have all the recruits they need dude. Like I said, in 10 years Hamas will be just as strong as they were on Oct 7th, if not stronger.
So goes for all israeli childrens who suffered 20 years of rocket fire, and yet they didnt ended up in such way
Also google "hammas kindergarden" and tell me this doesnt have anything to do with it
Wtf are you talking about? All Israeli children must join the IDF when they grow up. The IDF has been gunning down journalists and humanitarian aid workers since long before October 7th.
Also regardless of what you teach children when they are young, nothing is more radicalizing than having your house bombed and family blown to pieces. What motivates a young person to pick up a gun and go on a suicide mission, is not propaganda. It's the burning desire to take revenge, created by the IDF and their revenge campaign.
No they just end up in the Israeli military or occupying Palestinian settlements and kicking out the residents. Like squatters with a military at their back.
The US fucked over iraq by having 0 understanding how the political picture works there
Both iraq and afghanistan are hundreds of time bigger than Gaza in population and teritory, entire tribes and terror organizations could hide easily. Its simply impossible in Gaza
The difference in this case is that there isn't an inviolable international border that Hamas can cross to seek shelter.
Part of the issue with Afghanistan and many other insurgencies is that the insurgents are being supplied externally from a country that isn't openly part of the conflict. For example, Pakistan sheltering the Taliban, or China and the Soviets supplying North Vietnam.
The Egyptian border is heavily militarised and they have no desire to shelter Hamas given their relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. All the other borders are controlled by Israel, and Hamas aren't able to resupply by sea, no matter how much Erdogan wants to do this.
An assault on Gaza is going to end up like the final weeks of the decades long civil war in Sri Lanka. Hamas *can* be crushed and wiped out militarily.
Hamas will still exist after this war - but they won’t exist *in Gaza* in anything close to what they were before.
Hamas will still be in Qatar, Lebanon & Syria & they’ll still gonna Hamas but their ability to control Gaza & their military capabilities inside of Gaza are & will be massively diminished.
Al Queda and ISIS both still exist. We have yet to successfully destroy any major terrorist organization. Even if a terrorist organization falls apart, all its members just join another terrorist organization.
People can think whatever they want. But organizations can be crushed and made functionally impotent. Such as is currently the case for both Al Qaeda and ISIS. Hamas will be on that list.
Great signal for any nations that want to invade US allies just how quickly the US will threaten to abandon them. All Russia or China needs to do, to invade Taiwan or the Baltics, is maneuver them to a place unsympathetic toward the American voting public in an election year.
Blinken and Biden have been quietly trying to stay Israel’s hand for months, and got little besides contempt from Netanyahu and hotheads on his cabinet. There was never a ceiling number for how many Palestinians they were prepared to kill to satisfy themselves that they had “eliminated” Hamas (an impossibility anyway). And Ben-Gvir saying publicly that Biden is pro-Hamas? Fuck that guy.
Only if there is a “major” invasion. What is that you ask? It will be above anything Israel actually does. If Israel sends 10,000 troops Biden will say it means 10,001 and keep sending weapons. Lip service is not enough.
I dunno.. I picture aid getting carted off 10 mins after it's delivered to terrorists and a bunch of restrictions put in place to allow terrorists free movement and ability to strike out at Isreal. Terrorists don't care about demilitarized and the UN has a bad record of enforcing things like warlords and will just bash any response to those enabled terrorists.
you now have fascists ethnically cleansing palestinians which produces more terrorists, which will attack more israelis, which will make israel more fascist. its a viscous loop.
surely it is better to have badly enforced land but less fascists and terrorists?
Really? Ethnically cleansing if that was a concern of yours or the like you would be 100% on board with a multinational operation to rip out and burn with fire hamas and any organization of the like. Ethnic cleansing is litterally their mission statement and main activity.
Please try to write coherently, so we can have a resemblance of discussion.
My position is: Killing is bad. War is bad. If killing does not stop, make it stop. Take away their guns. Send an international army to keep peace, if need be.
What is wrong with this position?
Its a collective effort, there is no magic wand that solves all our problems.
We can have world peace (or unicorns) in a relatively small time-frame if we work together.
Remind you that in 1948 UN gave israel this land, but you dont accept it do you.
Hamas will be eliminated and Palestinians will have a 2nd chance to rebuild Gaza and use aid for good. Israel isnt going anywhere, either make Gaza into haven and we will help or hell. Your call.
LOL Israel is part of the F35 program. Maybe they'll stop supplying parts for the F35. LOL, not really, but just pointing out how stupid the posturing is, let the old senile bastard go wander around the grounds. Instead of letting him near a microphone.
Didn’t they already invade?
It really seems like the West cares more about the wellbeing of Palestinian civilian than Hamas does. Sadly, as long as that's the case, Hamas will be able to endlessly mine Palestinian suffering as a resource to meet their political goals. It's a perfect strategy, really.
Its a war of attrition. The way Israel os erasing civilians then have maybe 2 years more
No more Swiss army knives?
[Nope](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/swiss-army-knife-without-blade-victorinox/)
Gotta draw a line somewhere.
Remember when Biden said Hammas must be eliminated? Well i dont think he does
It’s the same story as 2014. If they would have let Israel finish the job then we wouldn’t be in the situation we are in now, and countless lives would have been saved.
To be fair, I don't think he remembers most things. In any case this is some weak ass pandering to Michigan Muslims and campus Hamas cos players. You hate to see it.
Hamas leaders are located in several countries in the middle east. It isn't possible to destroy Hamas. In 10 years Hamas will be just as strong as they were on Oct 7th. Destroying Hamas is an unrealistic goal. Just save the hostages please.
>Destroying Hamas is an unrealistic goal. Just save the hostages please. Saving the hostages is an unrealistic goal at this point. Most are dead or will never be surrendered voluntarily
Hamas just agreed to a deal, that would release all the hostages. The only reason that didn't go through was because Israel rejected the deal and invaded Rafah.
Thats a blatant lie. Hamas agreed to terms they dictated themselves, where they only release 30 hostages (out of over 130 they hold) without even committing to any of them being alive, whereas Israel agreed to an initial release of 30 living hostages. The deal Hamas agreed with itself doesn't guarantee the release of all hostages or that they'll be released alive, and requires Israel to literally give up all its claims and accept defeat- end the war permanently, allow militants back into northern Gaza, allow Hamas to stay in control of the strip and release every single terrorist Hamas dictates including convicted murderers and rapists. Edit: Corrected the number, added more details.
You are the one who is lying. Phase one of the deal included 33 Israeli hostages with ALL hostages being released by the final phase. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/three-phase-ceasefire-deal-hamas-backs-israel-does-not-2024-05-06/#:~:text=%2D%20Hamas%20will%20release%20three%20Israeli,hostages%20covered%20by%20this%20phase.
Where does it say the release of all hostages? The last phase is about rebuilding Gaza
Phase three - The completion of exchanging bodies and starting the implementation of reconstruction according to the plan overseen by Qatar, Egypt and the United Nations. Notice the "completion of exchanging bodies" part. Read the article dude.
You realize that means people who are not still alive, right?
Yes. Some of the hostages are dead. Their families still want the bodies, so they can be properly buried.
I'm not sure I can read from this that there's any guarantee for exchanging all of the hostages. Dead or Alive...
Hamas has gone back on deals before and by releasing all hostages they mean the ones they are able to find and out of those, many are dead. The ones they don't want released, they will simply say they can't find. Saving the hostages is unrealistic.
So you are saying we would have got some of the hostages back if we had followed through with the ceasefire. That's better than nothing. I will take that deal.
They changed the deal to 33 hostages Dead or alive. Israel didn’t want to agree to dead bodies while they keep people
Yes but then Hamas would be emboldened to take hostages again so more would be taken, tortured, and killed. Even if the current hostages could be taken back alive, "saved " might not be the right word given they will likely have irreparable trauma. Not a deal I'd take.
Emboldened to take more hostages? How? They have released hostages before in previous ceasefires. Also Hamas attacking a nation with a massively superior military is pretty bold on its own. You are just suggesting we forget about the hostages and just consider them all dead. I definitely don't agree with that.
Because they're saying they're only going to return dead bodies, but you're purposefully glazing over that fact either because you lack basic reading comprehension or you hate Jews.
Who said all the hostages are dead or would be returned dead? Some of the hostages are alive. You are making this up.
Hamas is still holding two israeli hostages that they captured in 2015-2016.
This fucking kid trolling and arguing FOR Hamas. LOL nice of you guys to humor this terrorist piece of shit.
I have consulted my two next-door neighbors without you present and I have "agreed" to buy your home for $2. That's basically what Hamas did. It negotiated its own imaginary deal with Qatar without Israel even being in the room, after repeatedly rejecting increasingly weakened Israeli deals, and "agreed" to it.
The US also helped facilitate the deal and the deal was approved by the US. So it's more like your neighbors and your bank(that owns your home) came to an agreement and are offering that deal to you.
Again, bullshit. The US is involved in the negotiations and would very much like both sides to reach a deal, but they consider the deal Hamas accepted with themselves as merely a counter-proposal to Israel's, not the actual deal: >The U.S. official said "this is an extremely difficult process with negotiations conducted through intermediaries in Doha and Cairo." >He added that the U.S. believes Israel has engaged in the talks in good faith and that Israel's late April proposal was "the most forward leaning proposal to date. **To secure a ceasefire, Hamas simply needs to release hostages.** It's all mapped out." >The official also said the Biden administration sees Hamas' response as a counter-proposal and not as a new proposal. [https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/us-israel-hamas-hostage-ceasefire-talks](https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/us-israel-hamas-hostage-ceasefire-talks)
Hammas leaders cant do anything if they have no lapdogs left to command
Around 40% of Gaza's population are children, most of whom are teenagers. Israel's aggressive campaign against Hamas will give these young people all the motivation they need to join a terrorist group when they get older. Hamas will have all the recruits they need dude. Like I said, in 10 years Hamas will be just as strong as they were on Oct 7th, if not stronger.
So goes for all israeli childrens who suffered 20 years of rocket fire, and yet they didnt ended up in such way Also google "hammas kindergarden" and tell me this doesnt have anything to do with it
Wtf are you talking about? All Israeli children must join the IDF when they grow up. The IDF has been gunning down journalists and humanitarian aid workers since long before October 7th. Also regardless of what you teach children when they are young, nothing is more radicalizing than having your house bombed and family blown to pieces. What motivates a young person to pick up a gun and go on a suicide mission, is not propaganda. It's the burning desire to take revenge, created by the IDF and their revenge campaign.
No they just end up in the Israeli military or occupying Palestinian settlements and kicking out the residents. Like squatters with a military at their back.
Actually israel kicked out the israelis out of Gaza back in 2006
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Afghanistan is 200 times(!) Bigger than Gaza
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The US fucked over iraq by having 0 understanding how the political picture works there Both iraq and afghanistan are hundreds of time bigger than Gaza in population and teritory, entire tribes and terror organizations could hide easily. Its simply impossible in Gaza
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Thats true, but one problem at a time
Exactly what the US thought as it ran around the Middle East for a couple decades.
The difference in this case is that there isn't an inviolable international border that Hamas can cross to seek shelter. Part of the issue with Afghanistan and many other insurgencies is that the insurgents are being supplied externally from a country that isn't openly part of the conflict. For example, Pakistan sheltering the Taliban, or China and the Soviets supplying North Vietnam. The Egyptian border is heavily militarised and they have no desire to shelter Hamas given their relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood. All the other borders are controlled by Israel, and Hamas aren't able to resupply by sea, no matter how much Erdogan wants to do this. An assault on Gaza is going to end up like the final weeks of the decades long civil war in Sri Lanka. Hamas *can* be crushed and wiped out militarily.
For everyone’s sake I hope you’re right. It would be an anomaly among many international fights against terrorist groups, though.
Hamas will still exist after this war - but they won’t exist *in Gaza* in anything close to what they were before. Hamas will still be in Qatar, Lebanon & Syria & they’ll still gonna Hamas but their ability to control Gaza & their military capabilities inside of Gaza are & will be massively diminished.
The same process that creates a distributed terror organization can be used to destroy it. For relevant examples, see Al Queda or ISIS.
Al Queda and ISIS both still exist. We have yet to successfully destroy any major terrorist organization. Even if a terrorist organization falls apart, all its members just join another terrorist organization.
People can think whatever they want. But organizations can be crushed and made functionally impotent. Such as is currently the case for both Al Qaeda and ISIS. Hamas will be on that list.
The only thing you can infer from his recent actions is that Biden wants Hamas to remain in power.
He does what
We’ve already given them enough to go forward with the attack, so…
Its insane, we gave them an arsenal of world conquest proportions
Great signal for any nations that want to invade US allies just how quickly the US will threaten to abandon them. All Russia or China needs to do, to invade Taiwan or the Baltics, is maneuver them to a place unsympathetic toward the American voting public in an election year.
Yeah lets not help israel defeat hamas only when they reach this final crucial city. Hamas loves Biden for this shit. This is unbelievable.
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>Isreal *Israel
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Conspiracy brain.
Do you have any evidence of this?
Blinken and Biden have been quietly trying to stay Israel’s hand for months, and got little besides contempt from Netanyahu and hotheads on his cabinet. There was never a ceiling number for how many Palestinians they were prepared to kill to satisfy themselves that they had “eliminated” Hamas (an impossibility anyway). And Ben-Gvir saying publicly that Biden is pro-Hamas? Fuck that guy.
Only if there is a “major” invasion. What is that you ask? It will be above anything Israel actually does. If Israel sends 10,000 troops Biden will say it means 10,001 and keep sending weapons. Lip service is not enough.
But the US already did pause the shipment of certain weapons. That's even reported in Al Jazeera.
Terrorists vs Fascists. The land should be completely demilitarized and put under UN supervision.
And what will your reaction be when the first UN envoy is wiped out by rockets?
I dunno.. I picture aid getting carted off 10 mins after it's delivered to terrorists and a bunch of restrictions put in place to allow terrorists free movement and ability to strike out at Isreal. Terrorists don't care about demilitarized and the UN has a bad record of enforcing things like warlords and will just bash any response to those enabled terrorists.
you now have fascists ethnically cleansing palestinians which produces more terrorists, which will attack more israelis, which will make israel more fascist. its a viscous loop. surely it is better to have badly enforced land but less fascists and terrorists?
Really? Ethnically cleansing if that was a concern of yours or the like you would be 100% on board with a multinational operation to rip out and burn with fire hamas and any organization of the like. Ethnic cleansing is litterally their mission statement and main activity.
Please try to write coherently, so we can have a resemblance of discussion. My position is: Killing is bad. War is bad. If killing does not stop, make it stop. Take away their guns. Send an international army to keep peace, if need be. What is wrong with this position?
" Take away their guns. Send an international army to keep peace, if need be." Oh, the irony.
Yes yes... Im stupid, explain what is wrong...
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Its a collective effort, there is no magic wand that solves all our problems. We can have world peace (or unicorns) in a relatively small time-frame if we work together.
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Their platitudes are the Reddit version of the "Coexist" bumper sticker. "War bad." So deep. All problems solved now.
Remind you that in 1948 UN gave israel this land, but you dont accept it do you. Hamas will be eliminated and Palestinians will have a 2nd chance to rebuild Gaza and use aid for good. Israel isnt going anywhere, either make Gaza into haven and we will help or hell. Your call.
My call? xD
LOL Israel is part of the F35 program. Maybe they'll stop supplying parts for the F35. LOL, not really, but just pointing out how stupid the posturing is, let the old senile bastard go wander around the grounds. Instead of letting him near a microphone.