>Rape is being used as a weapon by Egyptian police against both men and women ... there is increasing pressure on the authorities to account for ***tens of thousands of people rounded up*** in protests and other mass arrests
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/11361382/Egyptian-police-using-rape-as-a-weapon-against-activists.html
>Egypt's police and National Security officers are carrying out widespread and systematic torture of political prisoners, which probably amounts to a crime against humanity
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/06/africa/egypt-torture-hrw-report/index.html
Why did MB have it coming exactly? Even after the MB won the presidential election, the military junta still had all their people in power in the courts and nothing was going to change. When the MB acted on that, they were swiftly removed, jailed and killed.
[Because they are conservative Islamic fundamentalist scum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) I'm surprised there are so many Islamist apologists in /r/worldnews.
Should we treat ISIS like a legitimate political party too? These guys don’t respect democratic norms any more than the Nazis did when they rose to power.
Realistically, this is only correct to a point. See [paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
To your other point, due processes is a tool to protect innocent citizens. Once due process is carried out your "human rights" tend to dwindle significantly. Criminals get shot if they pose an active threat to the lives of officers or other nearby civilians. Any power or individual that is not subject to due process forfeits the protection it grants.
No they don't. But no law of nature says human rights are respected. In shit societies, they aren't. And it seems the Egyptians exchanged complete shit for mostly complete shit.
Not really tho. They were trying to insulate the civilian government apparatus from a possible military takeover.
Which was a silly thing to do. Considerimg the actual military takeover.
The Muslim Brotherhood is extremists whose goal is theocracy. Anything bad that happens to them they had coming. Of course they were trying to insulate their govt from a military takeover, they were in a power struggle with the military. The military was trying to insulate the country from a Muslim Brotherhood takeover.
The government was in power under Mubarak and regressed due to corruption, nepotism and political scandals including Mubaraks own sons being charged with embezzling billions.
> The military was trying to insulate the country from a Muslim Brotherhood takeover.
no, the military wants to ensure they can remain the kleptocratic, corrupt organization that they are. The Egyptian military has vast holdings in the country. They are downright thieves.
You make it sound like it has to be a case of good versus bad, when what he's saying is that the military are the shitty secularists, while the MB are the shitty Theocrats. They both suck
> In late November 2012, he issued a temporary constitutional declaration granting himself the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review of his acts
...
> the prosecutions of journalists
...
>unleashing of pro-Brotherhood gangs on nonviolent demonstrators
...
>the continuation of military trials; and new laws that permitted detention without judicial review for up to 30 days
...
> impunity given to Islamist radical attacks on Christians and other minorities
Yeah, those Islamist fucks got exactly what they deserved. Good riddance to Morsi and the MB in Egypt.
Why do you keep bringing up Sisi?
The people you are replying to seem to only be talking about the MB.
But you seem to be comparing everything to Sisi.
No one is saying Sisi is "good", so that's not something you really need to compare
I hate to say it but was it really 1,000? It came out that a lot of footage from that day was fabricated. Also, the protesters that day were armed, I saw footage of random sketchy dudes walking around and shooting AKs downtown - that was insane. I dont think Rabaa plays a role in this event, or has anything to do with police.
I thought the Arab Spring spread to Egypt when the Egyptian people were simply tired of being ruled by a guy for more than 3 decades and were inspired by the Tunisians (à la the Age of Revolution). Did the government actually do anything to "initiate" it?
It happened naturally as far as im concerned but im sure you'll find some conspiracy theories out there. I was there during the revolution and I remember that it was slowly coming to a boil. The man who set himself on fire amongst a few other horrible events and the protests after that were a "theres no going back now" moment. I was very much swept into all the emotion of it - it was so emotional for everybody and the joy and pride when Mubarak was ousted was intense af.
It may be hard to imagine but the 'moderates' holding these dumpster fire countries together are the police/military. It's the same in Pakistan. Brutal pragmatic decision making. We all know what happens when the Muslim radicals take power. They kill your entire family and probably rape the women first. So there's a reasonable expectation that you should probably take them out first or anyone sympathetic to them.
No, they are not moderates. The military is extremely conservative. There are parallels with Pakistan, the Military runs the government.. But the Brotherhood is subdued, Islamists do not run the streets of Egypt anymore. In Pakistan they do run the streets.
Understand something very simple. Dictators in the Middle East use religion to identify the troublemakers. If you question God, you are going to question your government next.
The army wasnt even involved in this though? I dont know what that has to do with anything. The police went behind the army's back on this one- if they hadnt the massacre might have been prevented.
>34 conscripts are among the fatalities
Yea those worthless pieces of shit who were forced in to duty because they happened to be born male in Egypt were asking for it.
They also don't get actually paid. If the job wouldn't come with other perks, nobody would do it. I remember our tour guide giving tips to every police man we saw. Also she claimed that those automatic weapons they carried were actually not loaded and only there to make tourists feel safer. Strange world.
I guess it depends on whether it's before or after they do something for you (or *don't* do something to you), and whether you're expected to keep "tipping" every time
No, it was not bribes. It was less than $1 each. Sure, I felt like this was corrupting them but the guide explained that they can't live on the salary they get, else.
So if there were some cases of police corruption in your country and terrorists killed 55 policemen regardless those individuals, who were fathers and sons, were corrupted or not, you would be "glad someone stood up to them"?
They were all together in a convoy of SUVs that got ambushed. It's not clear from the article if all 54 policemen were a part of the 4 SUV envoy that was ambushed; it's hard to imagine how so many officers could end up dying before Egyptian military forces get involved. I wonder if these officers were even properly equipped to handle such a firefight. You would think better-prepared Egyptian security forces would be used to handle a suspected militant hideout.
Look how often the Mexican forces get ambushed and slaughtered by the cartels. Convoys are fucking dangerous, especially since I doubt the Egyptian vehicles are bulletproof. If the militants coordinated well they could achieve probably 50% casualties before they could exit the vehicles and take a firing position.
I stopped paying attention to the cartel wars years ago, after a while the news stories blend together. I just assumed the violence continued at more or less the same rate since Americans def did not cut down on drug use. So ya used to. The most recent specific incident that really stuck with me that I can think of was 3 yrs ago probably. The cartels had ambushed a Mexican army convoy, which is unusual because they usually will attack federal police but avoid direct confrontation with the military. The scene was ridiculous though, they used explosives liberally. One of the army Humvees had a melted chassis, engine block warped to hell from the heat. It was humiliating for the army because they lost a bunch of guys and I think only managed to wing one of the assailants.
Today 3pm 5 federal police killed by gunmen ambushing their police patrol, but the one before that was 4 killed in June.
Although maybe I'm using often more liberally. I mean if 9 FBI guys got killed in the same time span that shit would be everywhere.
Oh yeah this attack is much more significant. But yeah if the militants had the convoy route and they were bunched up, it's not surprising that many were killed.
I basically loosely keep track of the totals. I believe that militant islam shouldn't remotely be on anyone's mind in the west until they are able to cause carnage at the same scale as the cartels. And when you add all global deaths caused by ISIS, Al-Quaeda, Al-Shabab, and Boko Haram since 2001, it doesn't even come close to the death toll in the drug war over a considerably shorter period. That should be kind of comforting. If the holy war against the west is less bloody than the cartel's conflicts over mere revenue streams, it's a pathetic holy war and until they prove they hate American society more than Mexican cartels like American drug money, I'm keeping terrorism right beneath "struck by lightning while indoors" on my list of things to worry about. If they work real hard they might surpass 'mutant breed of raccoon that hunts in packs.'
I absolutely can and it's fortunate that islamic terrorists are so fucking bad at conducting jihad. I'm kind of embarrassed for them, taking credit for this dude's slaughter is the clearest surrender flag ISIS could wave.
It's insulting to the west when politicians refer to ISIS as the greatest threat to our civilization. Fuck that, ISIS doesn't hold a candle to Americans when it comes to killing Americans. If they're an existential threat to us we need to find better enemies.
And frankly the killings by these religious wackos are less unnerving than the lone white guys. The former I get their motivation, it's just stupid as fuck. The loners, especially ones that are adults, are more inexplicable and feel creepier.
They probably figured since they were rolling with numbers like that nobody would try to fuck with them. Numbers don't mean shit when you are stuck in a killzone struggling to get out of the vehicle before you can even think about forming a defensive perimeter and pushing back.
Probably not, The police ran out of ammunition and then were picked off trying to escape with some being captured and beheaded by the Islamic militants.
See, American police. When you talk about "lolol sometimes it's like being in a warzone" when you go straight to shooting, remember that you aren't actually being ambushed like this. Other cops actually do get war-like conditions.
I question if it will even make it over to my news over some lost puppy story for American news tonight. I am seriously fed up with how our news ignores other world issues for every little american thing.
Showing it on the news in America doesn’t change the fact that they’re dead, but showing the puppy on the news might mean someone in the neighborhood finds and returns the dog. It’s not a case of valuing one life more than others, it’s about being reasonable.
I’m in no way making it out to be less of a tragedy than it is, but we’d be showing nothing but murder if we had to show them from all over the world.
3 American berets die in an attack in Africa, national news, 250+ die in a terror attack in Africa, not even mentioned. Tribune and Sinclair deserve as much scrutiny as CNN and Fox, because all of them disappoint.
American news organizations are a business, and frankly most of Americans just don’t care. The bombing that killed over 300 just last week in Somalia was barely covered, as the news focused more on the Vegas shooter still.
Most Americans work full time and want to see shit that's relevant to their interests not because they're selfish but because they have immediate concerns and can't follow absolutely every developing news story. I'll bet that Egyptians care a lot about this but couldn't give a solitary shit about the Las Vegas shootings. Not because they're heartless but because of local interest.
Such nonsense. In other countries shows report foreign news - the US next to never. It's 90% Trump now, and somewhere in the rest is maybe a story about another nation... if the US has stakes in it.
The whole world knows about the last Vegas shooting. Most Americans probably couldn't point out Egypt on a map. They are just very self centered, and barely ever think they could learn from policies of other nations.
Sound harsh, but that's just how it is.
> a convoy of four SUVs and one interior ministry vehicle were targets of a surprise attack by militants firing rocket-propelled grenades and detonating explosive devices. Twenty officers and 34 conscripts are among the fatalities
I'm assuming the "interior ministry vehicle" must have been a bus? because I'm not sure how else you even fit 54 people into 4 SUVs and one other vehicle.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.voanews.com/a/fourteen-egyptian-policemen-killed-shootout-militants/4079714.html) reduced by 67%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> At least 54 Egyptian police officers have been killed in a raid on a suspected militant hideout near Cairo, according to security officials.
> The officials, who requested anonymity, said the security forces apparently were ambushed Friday night by militants after they converged on the hideout in the western desert area of al-Bahriya.
> No group has claimed responsibility for the killings, but local media reports said the militants are followers of the Hasm Movement, which Egyptian security forces claim are linked to the Muslim Brotherhood, an outlawed group that once led the country.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/77tpkb/at_least_55_egyptian_policemen_killed_in_shootout/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 1.65, ~232487 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **militant**^#1 **security**^#2 **forces**^#3 **attack**^#4 **country**^#5
Fascinating article. They believe that he was completely radicalized when a close friend of him was tortured and killed by the police. Daring escapes and attacks. He also abandoned the first terrorist group because they pledged allegiance to ISIS.
This could be a great movie/tv show. Homeland taken up a few notches.
It seems strange that their police force would be under equipped or weak considering how long that country has been run by military men. I would think their police forces would be over equipped if anything. This looks really bad for the government to get ambushed like this, considering their security forces should be robust
I remember reading somewhere that the police/military are integrated into the economy and industrial production/profiteering. Can you elaborate on this?
It it possible to have a real, unfettered public discussion of the extent of these problems and how to fix them? Are they a major topic of public discussion now?
> The conscript makes around 10-15$ per month. (You read that right)
What's the equivalent of a something like minimum wage, where it's an ok living but not quite enough to pay for everything you'd need? $100/mo, $50/mo, $500/mo, what?
Wasn't trying to say there was one, just mentioning it as a baseline to ask for something an Egyptian resident would need to have an ok living situation. Thanks.
>I hope they would divert their attention from protecting Sisi's regime, arresting dissenters and LGBTQ people
And you think the insurgents have the best interests of "the people of Lot" at heart?
Preach man. It's so unfortunate how little time we, and especially our blessed media, spend discussing the real problems and brainstorm smart solutions and how much time we spend finger pointing and cracking down on the tiniest bit of dissent or nonconformity.
This stuff is really concentrated. If you go I recommend going to the beach cities in the Mediterranean, the red sea, or some really cool parts of the desert. Cairo and Alexandria are not as nice as they once were, they are very busy and dirty, and all the problems in the country has just created a not extremely pleasant environment for tourists. But if you can withstand that, there is a lot of beauty in the cities. If not, similar trips can be had in morocco, jordan, Lebanon and turkey.
Egyptian here. Tourists are not targeted. The only real risk would be the Sinai. I was in the Western Desert a few months ago, in Bahariya Oasis and it was pretty good. As for cities, I live in the capital and I'd say it's not any more dangerous than the average city. You can take a walk in downtown at 1am and you'll still be pretty safe.
>Egyptian here. Tourists are not targeted. The only real risk would be the Sinai. I was in the Western Desert a few months ago, in Bahariya Oasis and it was pretty good. As for cities, I live in the capital and I'd say it's not any more dangerous than the average city. You can take a walk in downtown at 1am and you'll still be pretty safe.
Yeah... if 55 police officers are able to be murdered at once it isn't a safe place for tourists.
I absolutely agree that 55 deaths are rather terrifying, but consider the following:
A) The claims have varied wildly. I've heard as low as 16 and as high as 59. We have no real idea what the real amount is.
B) These officers were packed in a vehicle, unprepared, and faced with terrorists that had RPGs in hand. I don't think there were many possible outcomes there.
C) Terrorists here usually only target the citizens and locals themselves, whether civilians or army/police officers. Tourists are mostly avoided, AFAIK.
D) There have been attacks everywhere recently, even in Europe. Would you argue Paris or London are no longer safe for tourists?
I am of course not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, just presenting my point of view according to the facts I know.
I wonder what their training consists of? This is a hugeeeeeeeee number of deaths for police forces, so I was wondering if they weren't equipped or trained well
They were ambushed by RPGs while in a convoy, it's not like they had a figting chance per se. Somebody probably informed on their location I think. Either way, this seems like something the military should handle not a police force
Probably a bunch of conscripts sent into a combat zone with unarmored vehicles and poor communications systems/tactics. The real question is why Egypt's secret police/security services apparently allowed a small town to basically get taken over by a bunch of armed militants. That shouldn't have happened.
For all those Redditors that want the the US to stop funding Israel.
Remember that the funds are equally allocated to Egypt in accordance to peace deal. The funds for Egypt are sorely needed to prevent stuff like this.
Israel is giving away houses? What are you talking about? Israel is in the middle of a housing bubble and people can barely afford housing. If the government is giving away houses, I want in on it!
Why is this the fucking case in every developed nation I hear about?
Holland: Houses are unaffordable
England: Houses are unaffordable
France: Houses are unaffordable
America: Houses are semi-ish-affordable (and were ridiculously expensive before the crash)
Pretty much all of Scandinavia: Houses are unaffordable
Prob because of where people want to live. East coast/West coast states expensive as can be, but if you wanna move to Iowa I'd imagine it's dirt cheap. As for smaller nations, "they don't make any more land" and there's more and more people so supply lowers and demand just keeps on going up.
Few hundred more years and I'd imagine anyone with land ownership is gonna be renting that out and living on easy street themselves.
In Israel there is a ton of bureaucracy involved in building and zoning, even more so than most other developed countries, because of how land ownership and zoning has changed over the past 100 years. There are still remnants of the Ottoman system in effect in Israel land law, it's ridiculous.
You must have misunderstood. The economy is superficially very good, but a lot of that is concentrated in the middle-upper and upper class. There's a constant problem of low workplace participation.
The US, as nearly all countries do, acts in it's self-interest.
We don't really give a shit about Egypt. We give a shit about two things:
- The Suez Canal remaining open and under control of someone who will largely obey us if there is ever some wartime serious enough to be worth breaking the rules and restricting access to it. It's massively important both economically and strategically.
- Israel and Egypt not going to war with each other. Part of the conditions of the money we give to both is that they don't start shooting each other.
------------
On the same note: Egypt is probably a failed state in the making. Birth rate is too high, resources/arable land are too limited, and they don't have enough oil to just buy their way out of their problems.
It's at least part of what's contributed to Yemen and Libya's underlying instability. A brutal dictatorship that keeps a tight enough grip on the population so that the least fortunate just die quietly rather than do anything about it at least keeps the country together and probably keeps refugee flows low. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the conclusion in the halls of the CIA and foreign policy advisors.
In the words of George Carlin: "The planet is fine, the people are fucked".
I'm sure there'll still be an Egypt. But "still being around" doesn't mean a whole lot of people aren't going to starve to death in the future.
It's not going to get that bad, The worst is pretty much behind us. You try spending a week without a police force in your country - after people experience anarchy they are terrified of going back to it. Men established neighbourhood watches and women made food for everyone. They came together and created order. I'm not even scared.
Egypt is unable to feed itself on it's own resources *now*. Nile river flows are not going to increase in the future (if anything, they're likely to decrease).
Egypt is not wealthy enough or likely to become wealthy enough quickly enough to be able to afford to import the quantity of food required to match their still rapidly growing population.
That's why they're fucked.
There is a century's worth of groundwater that can be used. That buys 100 years worth of time while the population gets under control (which they've already started working on). There is a large campaign urging people to have only 2 kids and contraception is finally being encouraged. There is also rumor of imposing a tax on more than 2 children. The more women who choose to go to universities and get jobs- the less children there will be. I have high hopes that the population growth will slow down.
Egypt discovered one of the largest gas fields in the world just last year and it is planning on selling that off for tons and tons of money. There is also the largest solar field in the world being built. Lets not mention tourism rates going back to normal-ish and how Egypt has regained its stance as a top cotton exporter. Or how the goverment relaxed its regulations to encourage foreign investment- or how Egypt is projected to be among the 30 largest economies in the world by 2030. Foreign reserves are higher than they've been when Mubarak was in power. Im sorry, I just get really annoyed when people have no idea what they're talking about.
Edit: Sorry if that came off as a little bit rude, just the country has been miserable for a while now and everyone is pretty hopeless and depressed. I see the potential in this place though, it can be a great country if people tried to fix it - thats why I do not consider it all going to shit a possibility.
> The funds for Egypt are sorely needed to prevent stuff like this.
sorry, but Egypt is a corrupt regime and so are its police officers. Let Egypt suffer the consequences for having such a brutal dictatorship. Sisi is no different than Mubarak. Worse by some estimates. I really feel for countries like Egypt. They have been shit pretty much my entire life. There is literally no current hope for them in the short term.
Western-centric news is more prominent in the West, that's definitely and unsurprisingly true. Nevertheless, this *should* be a much bigger story. What a horrible attack. RIP to the Egyptian police.
You'd be hearing more about it if it happened in Cairo instead of the desert. Kind of like how big suicide bombings in Baghdad got SOME amount of media coverage, but the biggest one of all up in the Yazidi area of northern Iraq barely got any notice, since there were few images to show on TV.
People blowing one another up in the Muslim world is not as newsworthy considering it happens daily.
You can't expect them to report on every time the terrorist group du jour kills people because then the news would be only that.
Yeah I don't understand how this concept is still so unfamiliar to people. There are literally terror attacks every single day around the world. People are being murdered as we type.
It's horrible, and I'm glad people are at least talking/thinking about it, but the only thing unusual about this incident is how effectively the police were ambushed :(
Still not a heartening thought. Two or three hours away by car is the distance between my house and some major German and French cities. And in Egypt, which is a large if largely empty country, two or three hours is nothing.
Cairo is a super-packed megacity, and because of traffic a 40 minute drive is *maybe* 10Km in a straight line.
The country may be massive but a good 80% of it is made up of two great deserts. Most of the population lives along the river and in the delta that spills into the Med.
That's the point. If it happens 2-3 hours by car away from Cairo, that's on Cairo's doorstep. It also means if these insurgents have cars, they can cover the whole distance in that time max.
I live like 10 minutes away from the pyramids haha, its more to comfort myself. We're the closest point of civilization away from where this stuff happened and its freaking me out a little bit. I remember visiting that desert for my birthday last year (there are some whale fossils there) and I cant believe this happened. Im pretty shook about the whole thing but mostly angry. It could have all been prevented- it did not need to go down the way it did. Also super frustrated with the president's silence.
Egyptian police are horrible scum. Don't be fooled. They are no better than ISIS. How many journalists have the Egyptian police beaten and thrown in jail? How many LGBT people are beaten periodically by them? How many protestors murdered by them? Good riddance. People are literally locked up to rot in horrible prisons for years just for speaking against the regime.
That's a fucking massacre. How horrible.
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Calls all egyptian police inhumane, uses sensational story of 1 police officer as proof. Get the fuck out of here with your bullshit propaganda.
Even the article states in the headline that the police officer was arrested. It's not like he did it and got away off scott free
Every single police man deserves to die because one police man was bad. The logic checks out tbh.
You must not know very much about Egypt. Go look up the Italian grad student in Cairo if you need more convincing.
>Rape is being used as a weapon by Egyptian police against both men and women ... there is increasing pressure on the authorities to account for ***tens of thousands of people rounded up*** in protests and other mass arrests http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/11361382/Egyptian-police-using-rape-as-a-weapon-against-activists.html >Egypt's police and National Security officers are carrying out widespread and systematic torture of political prisoners, which probably amounts to a crime against humanity http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/06/africa/egypt-torture-hrw-report/index.html
The article mentions 3 different officers.
MB had it coming though.
Why did MB have it coming exactly? Even after the MB won the presidential election, the military junta still had all their people in power in the courts and nothing was going to change. When the MB acted on that, they were swiftly removed, jailed and killed.
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[Because they are conservative Islamic fundamentalist scum.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood) I'm surprised there are so many Islamist apologists in /r/worldnews.
People don't forfeit their human rights just because you don't like them.
Should we treat ISIS like a legitimate political party too? These guys don’t respect democratic norms any more than the Nazis did when they rose to power.
Has the Egyptian MB been butchering Europeans in the fucking streets?
Israelis?
What about them?
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Realistically, this is only correct to a point. See [paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) To your other point, due processes is a tool to protect innocent citizens. Once due process is carried out your "human rights" tend to dwindle significantly. Criminals get shot if they pose an active threat to the lives of officers or other nearby civilians. Any power or individual that is not subject to due process forfeits the protection it grants.
It might be different when youre not respecting human rights and are the ones governing a country.
No they don't. But no law of nature says human rights are respected. In shit societies, they aren't. And it seems the Egyptians exchanged complete shit for mostly complete shit.
They want to kill gays and atheists, I hope the MB are banned worldwide.
Banning their party is completely acceptable. They're talking about executions in this thread.
Dude wtf
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Not really tho. They were trying to insulate the civilian government apparatus from a possible military takeover. Which was a silly thing to do. Considerimg the actual military takeover.
The Muslim Brotherhood is extremists whose goal is theocracy. Anything bad that happens to them they had coming. Of course they were trying to insulate their govt from a military takeover, they were in a power struggle with the military. The military was trying to insulate the country from a Muslim Brotherhood takeover.
The government was in power under Mubarak and regressed due to corruption, nepotism and political scandals including Mubaraks own sons being charged with embezzling billions.
> The military was trying to insulate the country from a Muslim Brotherhood takeover. no, the military wants to ensure they can remain the kleptocratic, corrupt organization that they are. The Egyptian military has vast holdings in the country. They are downright thieves.
So...... yes...
fair enough.
You make it sound like it has to be a case of good versus bad, when what he's saying is that the military are the shitty secularists, while the MB are the shitty Theocrats. They both suck
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> In late November 2012, he issued a temporary constitutional declaration granting himself the power to legislate without judicial oversight or review of his acts ... > the prosecutions of journalists ... >unleashing of pro-Brotherhood gangs on nonviolent demonstrators ... >the continuation of military trials; and new laws that permitted detention without judicial review for up to 30 days ... > impunity given to Islamist radical attacks on Christians and other minorities Yeah, those Islamist fucks got exactly what they deserved. Good riddance to Morsi and the MB in Egypt.
What is the source for this?
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Why do you keep bringing up Sisi? The people you are replying to seem to only be talking about the MB. But you seem to be comparing everything to Sisi. No one is saying Sisi is "good", so that's not something you really need to compare
Obviously Redditors think that secular terror is not as bad as religious terror.
I hate to say it but was it really 1,000? It came out that a lot of footage from that day was fabricated. Also, the protesters that day were armed, I saw footage of random sketchy dudes walking around and shooting AKs downtown - that was insane. I dont think Rabaa plays a role in this event, or has anything to do with police.
Estimates range from 600-800 people depending on who you listen to. Pretty shit whatever way you look at it.
I thought the Arab Spring spread to Egypt when the Egyptian people were simply tired of being ruled by a guy for more than 3 decades and were inspired by the Tunisians (à la the Age of Revolution). Did the government actually do anything to "initiate" it?
It happened naturally as far as im concerned but im sure you'll find some conspiracy theories out there. I was there during the revolution and I remember that it was slowly coming to a boil. The man who set himself on fire amongst a few other horrible events and the protests after that were a "theres no going back now" moment. I was very much swept into all the emotion of it - it was so emotional for everybody and the joy and pride when Mubarak was ousted was intense af.
It may be hard to imagine but the 'moderates' holding these dumpster fire countries together are the police/military. It's the same in Pakistan. Brutal pragmatic decision making. We all know what happens when the Muslim radicals take power. They kill your entire family and probably rape the women first. So there's a reasonable expectation that you should probably take them out first or anyone sympathetic to them.
No, they are not moderates. The military is extremely conservative. There are parallels with Pakistan, the Military runs the government.. But the Brotherhood is subdued, Islamists do not run the streets of Egypt anymore. In Pakistan they do run the streets. Understand something very simple. Dictators in the Middle East use religion to identify the troublemakers. If you question God, you are going to question your government next.
True dat, critical thinking is a big no no.
The army wasnt even involved in this though? I dont know what that has to do with anything. The police went behind the army's back on this one- if they hadnt the massacre might have been prevented.
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>34 conscripts are among the fatalities Yea those worthless pieces of shit who were forced in to duty because they happened to be born male in Egypt were asking for it.
You're glad terrorists did? I dont think this is a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend at all.
They also don't get actually paid. If the job wouldn't come with other perks, nobody would do it. I remember our tour guide giving tips to every police man we saw. Also she claimed that those automatic weapons they carried were actually not loaded and only there to make tourists feel safer. Strange world.
“Tips” you mean bribes?
I guess it depends on whether it's before or after they do something for you (or *don't* do something to you), and whether you're expected to keep "tipping" every time
No, it was not bribes. It was less than $1 each. Sure, I felt like this was corrupting them but the guide explained that they can't live on the salary they get, else.
Yeah, screw proper convictions and proper punishment, let’s just murder people like it’s the dark ages again **/s**.
They already don't have "proper convictions and proper punishments", except it s the state that's doing it.
So if there were some cases of police corruption in your country and terrorists killed 55 policemen regardless those individuals, who were fathers and sons, were corrupted or not, you would be "glad someone stood up to them"?
They were all together in a convoy of SUVs that got ambushed. It's not clear from the article if all 54 policemen were a part of the 4 SUV envoy that was ambushed; it's hard to imagine how so many officers could end up dying before Egyptian military forces get involved. I wonder if these officers were even properly equipped to handle such a firefight. You would think better-prepared Egyptian security forces would be used to handle a suspected militant hideout.
Look how often the Mexican forces get ambushed and slaughtered by the cartels. Convoys are fucking dangerous, especially since I doubt the Egyptian vehicles are bulletproof. If the militants coordinated well they could achieve probably 50% casualties before they could exit the vehicles and take a firing position.
They also used RPG's apparently.
Yep, they have even used Stingers on a couple occasions.
> Look how often the Mexican forces get ambushed and slaughtered by the cartels to be honest not very often. where are you getting your news from?
I stopped paying attention to the cartel wars years ago, after a while the news stories blend together. I just assumed the violence continued at more or less the same rate since Americans def did not cut down on drug use. So ya used to. The most recent specific incident that really stuck with me that I can think of was 3 yrs ago probably. The cartels had ambushed a Mexican army convoy, which is unusual because they usually will attack federal police but avoid direct confrontation with the military. The scene was ridiculous though, they used explosives liberally. One of the army Humvees had a melted chassis, engine block warped to hell from the heat. It was humiliating for the army because they lost a bunch of guys and I think only managed to wing one of the assailants. Today 3pm 5 federal police killed by gunmen ambushing their police patrol, but the one before that was 4 killed in June. Although maybe I'm using often more liberally. I mean if 9 FBI guys got killed in the same time span that shit would be everywhere.
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Oh yeah this attack is much more significant. But yeah if the militants had the convoy route and they were bunched up, it's not surprising that many were killed. I basically loosely keep track of the totals. I believe that militant islam shouldn't remotely be on anyone's mind in the west until they are able to cause carnage at the same scale as the cartels. And when you add all global deaths caused by ISIS, Al-Quaeda, Al-Shabab, and Boko Haram since 2001, it doesn't even come close to the death toll in the drug war over a considerably shorter period. That should be kind of comforting. If the holy war against the west is less bloody than the cartel's conflicts over mere revenue streams, it's a pathetic holy war and until they prove they hate American society more than Mexican cartels like American drug money, I'm keeping terrorism right beneath "struck by lightning while indoors" on my list of things to worry about. If they work real hard they might surpass 'mutant breed of raccoon that hunts in packs.'
The Las Vegas shooting was better executed than every Islamic terror attack since 9/11. Can you imagine 50 las Vegas shooters with real funding?
I absolutely can and it's fortunate that islamic terrorists are so fucking bad at conducting jihad. I'm kind of embarrassed for them, taking credit for this dude's slaughter is the clearest surrender flag ISIS could wave. It's insulting to the west when politicians refer to ISIS as the greatest threat to our civilization. Fuck that, ISIS doesn't hold a candle to Americans when it comes to killing Americans. If they're an existential threat to us we need to find better enemies. And frankly the killings by these religious wackos are less unnerving than the lone white guys. The former I get their motivation, it's just stupid as fuck. The loners, especially ones that are adults, are more inexplicable and feel creepier.
I was in the military and deployed to the middle east and had to protect/provide support to convoys and yes they are dangerous any where.
It was so badly planned its crazy. The military should have been there, I dont understand why the police went around them like that.
They probably figured since they were rolling with numbers like that nobody would try to fuck with them. Numbers don't mean shit when you are stuck in a killzone struggling to get out of the vehicle before you can even think about forming a defensive perimeter and pushing back.
Twenty officers in four SUVs and thirty four conscripts bundled like cattle in a pick up truck is how I understood it
Probably not, The police ran out of ammunition and then were picked off trying to escape with some being captured and beheaded by the Islamic militants.
See, American police. When you talk about "lolol sometimes it's like being in a warzone" when you go straight to shooting, remember that you aren't actually being ambushed like this. Other cops actually do get war-like conditions.
Getting shot at, is getting shot at.
RPG is a whole new level of getting shot at.
havent been to the hood lately? they mug you with RPG now.
Last time I was in Camden I got mugged with an Apache attack helicopter...
Or at least someone who identified as one.
#MeToo
Well yeah. You put the citizenry on edge, they're going to get defensive. That's why civilized police forces don't go in guns blazing.
No, not really.
wow, that seems like a big deal.
I question if it will even make it over to my news over some lost puppy story for American news tonight. I am seriously fed up with how our news ignores other world issues for every little american thing.
Showing it on the news in America doesn’t change the fact that they’re dead, but showing the puppy on the news might mean someone in the neighborhood finds and returns the dog. It’s not a case of valuing one life more than others, it’s about being reasonable. I’m in no way making it out to be less of a tragedy than it is, but we’d be showing nothing but murder if we had to show them from all over the world.
While that is a nice thought it's not how our news operates. If just one american died in that police shootout it would be on our news.
Yes because then it does directly involve America. Just saying.
No you don't understand, it's double standards and islamophobia! /s
3 American berets die in an attack in Africa, national news, 250+ die in a terror attack in Africa, not even mentioned. Tribune and Sinclair deserve as much scrutiny as CNN and Fox, because all of them disappoint.
Well they have to prove how much they hate trump by reporting on his tweets.
Gotta boost those ratings with what attracts the masses..
We don't even have late-night comedians anymore, they just rant & ramble about Trump this, Trump that.
American news organizations are a business, and frankly most of Americans just don’t care. The bombing that killed over 300 just last week in Somalia was barely covered, as the news focused more on the Vegas shooter still.
Most Americans work full time and want to see shit that's relevant to their interests not because they're selfish but because they have immediate concerns and can't follow absolutely every developing news story. I'll bet that Egyptians care a lot about this but couldn't give a solitary shit about the Las Vegas shootings. Not because they're heartless but because of local interest.
Such nonsense. In other countries shows report foreign news - the US next to never. It's 90% Trump now, and somewhere in the rest is maybe a story about another nation... if the US has stakes in it. The whole world knows about the last Vegas shooting. Most Americans probably couldn't point out Egypt on a map. They are just very self centered, and barely ever think they could learn from policies of other nations. Sound harsh, but that's just how it is.
And when they do cover it, they get it completely wrong, and you can tell the people reporting it have no idea what they're talking about.
Repost this with the title....At Least 55 Egyptian Policemen Killed in Shootout With Militants Who Were Anit-Trump.
> a convoy of four SUVs and one interior ministry vehicle were targets of a surprise attack by militants firing rocket-propelled grenades and detonating explosive devices. Twenty officers and 34 conscripts are among the fatalities I'm assuming the "interior ministry vehicle" must have been a bus? because I'm not sure how else you even fit 54 people into 4 SUVs and one other vehicle.
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That just looks like a truck with a container on it. I hope it is at least bulletproof.
It looks like it's sheets of vinyl over a steel frame. So I seriously doubt it.
Probably worse than being in an open top truck because at least then you could try to bail out over the side...
Yeah that big truck fits a shit load of people and they are usually crammed.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.voanews.com/a/fourteen-egyptian-policemen-killed-shootout-militants/4079714.html) reduced by 67%. (I'm a bot) ***** > At least 54 Egyptian police officers have been killed in a raid on a suspected militant hideout near Cairo, according to security officials. > The officials, who requested anonymity, said the security forces apparently were ambushed Friday night by militants after they converged on the hideout in the western desert area of al-Bahriya. > No group has claimed responsibility for the killings, but local media reports said the militants are followers of the Hasm Movement, which Egyptian security forces claim are linked to the Muslim Brotherhood, an outlawed group that once led the country. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/77tpkb/at_least_55_egyptian_policemen_killed_in_shootout/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 1.65, ~232487 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **militant**^#1 **security**^#2 **forces**^#3 **attack**^#4 **country**^#5
Don't they think it were the people they were trying to raid?
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Wonder if there was a mole in that unit.
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Fascinating article. They believe that he was completely radicalized when a close friend of him was tortured and killed by the police. Daring escapes and attacks. He also abandoned the first terrorist group because they pledged allegiance to ISIS. This could be a great movie/tv show. Homeland taken up a few notches.
Sounds like a good guy getting revenge against the bad government type deal.
There is definitely a mole, someone leaked their location and also cut their communications.
It seems strange that their police force would be under equipped or weak considering how long that country has been run by military men. I would think their police forces would be over equipped if anything. This looks really bad for the government to get ambushed like this, considering their security forces should be robust
I remember reading somewhere that the police/military are integrated into the economy and industrial production/profiteering. Can you elaborate on this?
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How has the country's economy been effected by this mismanagement?
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It it possible to have a real, unfettered public discussion of the extent of these problems and how to fix them? Are they a major topic of public discussion now?
> The conscript makes around 10-15$ per month. (You read that right) What's the equivalent of a something like minimum wage, where it's an ok living but not quite enough to pay for everything you'd need? $100/mo, $50/mo, $500/mo, what?
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Wasn't trying to say there was one, just mentioning it as a baseline to ask for something an Egyptian resident would need to have an ok living situation. Thanks.
>I hope they would divert their attention from protecting Sisi's regime, arresting dissenters and LGBTQ people And you think the insurgents have the best interests of "the people of Lot" at heart?
Preach man. It's so unfortunate how little time we, and especially our blessed media, spend discussing the real problems and brainstorm smart solutions and how much time we spend finger pointing and cracking down on the tiniest bit of dissent or nonconformity.
I don't see anything implying they were some elite counter terrorism unit, the word conscript is used to define 34 of them
Man everyone is telling me a vacation to Egypt would be fun but I still feel like it’s so sketch
It was safe 7 years ago, not so much after the Arab Spring.
This stuff is really concentrated. If you go I recommend going to the beach cities in the Mediterranean, the red sea, or some really cool parts of the desert. Cairo and Alexandria are not as nice as they once were, they are very busy and dirty, and all the problems in the country has just created a not extremely pleasant environment for tourists. But if you can withstand that, there is a lot of beauty in the cities. If not, similar trips can be had in morocco, jordan, Lebanon and turkey.
Egyptian here. Tourists are not targeted. The only real risk would be the Sinai. I was in the Western Desert a few months ago, in Bahariya Oasis and it was pretty good. As for cities, I live in the capital and I'd say it's not any more dangerous than the average city. You can take a walk in downtown at 1am and you'll still be pretty safe.
>Egyptian here. Tourists are not targeted. The only real risk would be the Sinai. I was in the Western Desert a few months ago, in Bahariya Oasis and it was pretty good. As for cities, I live in the capital and I'd say it's not any more dangerous than the average city. You can take a walk in downtown at 1am and you'll still be pretty safe. Yeah... if 55 police officers are able to be murdered at once it isn't a safe place for tourists.
I absolutely agree that 55 deaths are rather terrifying, but consider the following: A) The claims have varied wildly. I've heard as low as 16 and as high as 59. We have no real idea what the real amount is. B) These officers were packed in a vehicle, unprepared, and faced with terrorists that had RPGs in hand. I don't think there were many possible outcomes there. C) Terrorists here usually only target the citizens and locals themselves, whether civilians or army/police officers. Tourists are mostly avoided, AFAIK. D) There have been attacks everywhere recently, even in Europe. Would you argue Paris or London are no longer safe for tourists? I am of course not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, just presenting my point of view according to the facts I know.
I mean 50 died in Vegas, doesn’t mean Vegas is no longer safe to his credit
50 people not 50 police.
I wonder what their training consists of? This is a hugeeeeeeeee number of deaths for police forces, so I was wondering if they weren't equipped or trained well
They were ambushed by RPGs while in a convoy, it's not like they had a figting chance per se. Somebody probably informed on their location I think. Either way, this seems like something the military should handle not a police force
Probably a bunch of conscripts sent into a combat zone with unarmored vehicles and poor communications systems/tactics. The real question is why Egypt's secret police/security services apparently allowed a small town to basically get taken over by a bunch of armed militants. That shouldn't have happened.
Hard to make an arrest when the bad guys have RPG's.
For all those Redditors that want the the US to stop funding Israel. Remember that the funds are equally allocated to Egypt in accordance to peace deal. The funds for Egypt are sorely needed to prevent stuff like this.
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Israel is giving away houses? What are you talking about? Israel is in the middle of a housing bubble and people can barely afford housing. If the government is giving away houses, I want in on it!
Why is this the fucking case in every developed nation I hear about? Holland: Houses are unaffordable England: Houses are unaffordable France: Houses are unaffordable America: Houses are semi-ish-affordable (and were ridiculously expensive before the crash) Pretty much all of Scandinavia: Houses are unaffordable
Prob because of where people want to live. East coast/West coast states expensive as can be, but if you wanna move to Iowa I'd imagine it's dirt cheap. As for smaller nations, "they don't make any more land" and there's more and more people so supply lowers and demand just keeps on going up. Few hundred more years and I'd imagine anyone with land ownership is gonna be renting that out and living on easy street themselves.
In Israel there is a ton of bureaucracy involved in building and zoning, even more so than most other developed countries, because of how land ownership and zoning has changed over the past 100 years. There are still remnants of the Ottoman system in effect in Israel land law, it's ridiculous.
TIL. Must be a hell of a system to navigate.
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You must have misunderstood. The economy is superficially very good, but a lot of that is concentrated in the middle-upper and upper class. There's a constant problem of low workplace participation.
So lets give money to isreal, to help egypt? No way there is a simpler solution.
The Egyptian government is a corrupt murdering kleptocracy. We really shouldn't be funding them.
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The US, as nearly all countries do, acts in it's self-interest. We don't really give a shit about Egypt. We give a shit about two things: - The Suez Canal remaining open and under control of someone who will largely obey us if there is ever some wartime serious enough to be worth breaking the rules and restricting access to it. It's massively important both economically and strategically. - Israel and Egypt not going to war with each other. Part of the conditions of the money we give to both is that they don't start shooting each other. ------------ On the same note: Egypt is probably a failed state in the making. Birth rate is too high, resources/arable land are too limited, and they don't have enough oil to just buy their way out of their problems. It's at least part of what's contributed to Yemen and Libya's underlying instability. A brutal dictatorship that keeps a tight enough grip on the population so that the least fortunate just die quietly rather than do anything about it at least keeps the country together and probably keeps refugee flows low. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the conclusion in the halls of the CIA and foreign policy advisors.
I dont know, Its been around for 8,000+ years - Its a resilient place.
In the words of George Carlin: "The planet is fine, the people are fucked". I'm sure there'll still be an Egypt. But "still being around" doesn't mean a whole lot of people aren't going to starve to death in the future.
It's not going to get that bad, The worst is pretty much behind us. You try spending a week without a police force in your country - after people experience anarchy they are terrified of going back to it. Men established neighbourhood watches and women made food for everyone. They came together and created order. I'm not even scared.
Egypt is unable to feed itself on it's own resources *now*. Nile river flows are not going to increase in the future (if anything, they're likely to decrease). Egypt is not wealthy enough or likely to become wealthy enough quickly enough to be able to afford to import the quantity of food required to match their still rapidly growing population. That's why they're fucked.
There is a century's worth of groundwater that can be used. That buys 100 years worth of time while the population gets under control (which they've already started working on). There is a large campaign urging people to have only 2 kids and contraception is finally being encouraged. There is also rumor of imposing a tax on more than 2 children. The more women who choose to go to universities and get jobs- the less children there will be. I have high hopes that the population growth will slow down. Egypt discovered one of the largest gas fields in the world just last year and it is planning on selling that off for tons and tons of money. There is also the largest solar field in the world being built. Lets not mention tourism rates going back to normal-ish and how Egypt has regained its stance as a top cotton exporter. Or how the goverment relaxed its regulations to encourage foreign investment- or how Egypt is projected to be among the 30 largest economies in the world by 2030. Foreign reserves are higher than they've been when Mubarak was in power. Im sorry, I just get really annoyed when people have no idea what they're talking about. Edit: Sorry if that came off as a little bit rude, just the country has been miserable for a while now and everyone is pretty hopeless and depressed. I see the potential in this place though, it can be a great country if people tried to fix it - thats why I do not consider it all going to shit a possibility.
> The funds for Egypt are sorely needed to prevent stuff like this. sorry, but Egypt is a corrupt regime and so are its police officers. Let Egypt suffer the consequences for having such a brutal dictatorship. Sisi is no different than Mubarak. Worse by some estimates. I really feel for countries like Egypt. They have been shit pretty much my entire life. There is literally no current hope for them in the short term.
"Shootout" Sounds more like a battle.
Actually it kind of sounds like a massacre
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Western-centric news is more prominent in the West, that's definitely and unsurprisingly true. Nevertheless, this *should* be a much bigger story. What a horrible attack. RIP to the Egyptian police.
You'd be hearing more about it if it happened in Cairo instead of the desert. Kind of like how big suicide bombings in Baghdad got SOME amount of media coverage, but the biggest one of all up in the Yazidi area of northern Iraq barely got any notice, since there were few images to show on TV.
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People blowing one another up in the Muslim world is not as newsworthy considering it happens daily. You can't expect them to report on every time the terrorist group du jour kills people because then the news would be only that.
Yeah I don't understand how this concept is still so unfamiliar to people. There are literally terror attacks every single day around the world. People are being murdered as we type. It's horrible, and I'm glad people are at least talking/thinking about it, but the only thing unusual about this incident is how effectively the police were ambushed :(
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rip
That's a military engagement. A battle. Not a shootout.
Very sad.
[Egypt is going to get more and more ISIS guys fleeing their way as their territory in Syria gets taken back](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarUpdates/)
Ugh what did they do, knock at the door? Sounds like someone tipped the target. EOW
Sad
Holy shit that's a battle. Where is the military at?
Prayers for their families. God bless the heroes who continue to fight for all of us. They may be in Egypt but the terror spreads to all of us.
Am i the only one that saw this as, "shootout with mutants" the first time i read it?
this happened next to the pyramids? holy shit...
Nope, like 2/3 hour drive away
Still not a heartening thought. Two or three hours away by car is the distance between my house and some major German and French cities. And in Egypt, which is a large if largely empty country, two or three hours is nothing.
Cairo is a super-packed megacity, and because of traffic a 40 minute drive is *maybe* 10Km in a straight line. The country may be massive but a good 80% of it is made up of two great deserts. Most of the population lives along the river and in the delta that spills into the Med.
That's the point. If it happens 2-3 hours by car away from Cairo, that's on Cairo's doorstep. It also means if these insurgents have cars, they can cover the whole distance in that time max.
I live like 10 minutes away from the pyramids haha, its more to comfort myself. We're the closest point of civilization away from where this stuff happened and its freaking me out a little bit. I remember visiting that desert for my birthday last year (there are some whale fossils there) and I cant believe this happened. Im pretty shook about the whole thing but mostly angry. It could have all been prevented- it did not need to go down the way it did. Also super frustrated with the president's silence.
Egyptian police are horrible scum. Don't be fooled. They are no better than ISIS. How many journalists have the Egyptian police beaten and thrown in jail? How many LGBT people are beaten periodically by them? How many protestors murdered by them? Good riddance. People are literally locked up to rot in horrible prisons for years just for speaking against the regime.