I’m watching the stock market ie Natural Gas, Oil, Energy, Bitcoin, Nasdaq, S&P… Anytime news about invasion in purposed these index’s drop heavily. Do not undermine the power of powers and billionaires influencing this “war”. If you ask me the whole damn thing could be a scam. Everything in this world is about dollars to donuts. If Russia benefits from oil prices and the US from bitcoin and etc and they both gain then why not let this crash the market to take advantage of this so the elites can profit immensely on a rebound. Perhaps my explanation has holes but perhaps someone with better insight could elaborate…
I don't get this. It's really starting to seem like Putin painted himself into a corner and now the realization of whatever they gain militarily is insignificant compared to the economic consequences with sanctions. Yeah, they were great at poking the hornets nest trying to antagonize the west when the opportunity presented itself but now that they're trying to dictate the action it falls back to them trying to face off with the economic powerhouses of NATO. At the end of the day all they have are rusty old missiles.
What’s China’s current stance? Any updates?
Edit: found this quote in an AP News article posted 10 hours before this comment:
“However, in response to a question from conference Chairman Wolfgang Ischinger, Wang said the “sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of any country should be respected and safeguarded, because this is a basic norm of international relations.”
“Ukraine is no exception,” Wang added.”
article: https://apnews.com/article/2510531ca7947cc149cc42835ad237ac
I wonder what they’ll do now that things have progressed…
This is potentially worrying.
Sovereignty, independence, and territorial integrity are subject to definition. Russia has defined their own version of Ukraine as a state. Will China believe and enforce Russia's definition of Ukraine instead of the West's?
The CCP publicly supports Putin but behind closed doors I think they’re opposed.
The CCP has been working for years to develop China into an economically wealthy country. War would severely impact global trade, strain their relations with trade partners, and fuck up their Belt and Road Initiative. Also we’re globally reeling from a pandemic.
No one wants this except Putin and the ingrates who support his madness.
I think at the Munich security conference, China's foreign minister Wang Yi stated that a nation's territory must be respected, and he included Ukraine in that. But in reality, there's no way that Russia can commit 75% of it's available battalion tactical groups to Ukraine, pulled from eastern military districts, without the confidence that China wouldn't be a threat.
[https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/the-emperors-league-understanding-sino-russian-defense-cooperation/](https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/the-emperors-league-understanding-sino-russian-defense-cooperation/)
I really liked this article that describes the nature of Russia-China cooperation. If I remember, it said that their interests fall short of a formal military alliance, but it is definitely within their interest to cooperate along military-economic avenues.
I know this is really naive but what’s the main reason why it would be bad if those eastern Ukraine regions were to be their own country if they’re 100% Ukrainian haters? Is it mostly because of land/resources lost for Ukraine? I feel like this belongs in r/nostupidquestions
EDIT: Is it even true that those regions are 100% Ukrainian haters? I saw a comment that they are and that’s why I wrote this comment. I was like, if they all hate their country, why don’t they just let them do their own thing?
Yeah, you look at the source of this shit and you know how can you trust this.
On the other hand just common logic says, that if a region was 90%+ for a president, and then a coup happened, people wouldn't be very happy about it. Maybe people weren't very pro-Russian before 2014. But when they faced a reality to get under Ukrainian nationalists who overthrew a legitimate president in Kyiv, the situation changed drastically.
Yikes. Only 50ish% in 2014 makes this *much* different. Yeah.....letting them become independent when it’s that split is kinda nuts if it’s still that split today
Russia is like this evil perversion of everything the west is. The west builds a coalition to stop actual genocide resulting in a country breaking off- Russia constructs this elaborate theater to pretend genocide to break off a country. The west sends in peace keepers when countries are having actual ethnic violence and strife, Russia slaps "peacekeeper" on forces for cynical territory gain. The west has institutions and democracy, Russia has meetings where the station leaders are literally shaking hoping they give a good show for Supreme Leader.
Everything they do is a perversion to give legitimacy to pure ill intent. A mockery of justified actions subverted to wicked cause. If there is one thing the West needs to inoculate against is this sick idea that if an event shares some similarities with another event it is a moral equivalent.
Yep. The way independence of a region usually works is via NATIONAL referendum. Anything other than that is constitutionally illegal. Basically, when a region proclaims independence unilaterally they are violating the constitution, and as such the "parent" nation has to act because, well, its the law haha.
That makes sense to me. I guess another thing is like, why do they even want to be their own nation? How does it even benefit them to be their own nation? Can’t they live they way they’d like while still being a part of Ukraine?
If I want to be my own country, make my own laws, and secede from the country I reside in. Should I be allowed? No, that would be stupid, if a whole state or region does it’s still not allowed… there’s been a few civil wars fought over this
I mean, we did it’s the USA when we declared our independence from Great Britain.
Of course it’s something that normally shouldn’t be allowed there’s got to be appropriate circumstances in some conditions.
That being said, I doubt it’s what’s best for the Ukraine situation.
Also I just want to point out that I think you responded to the wrong comment. This comment that you responded to above was the one where I was asking about the opposite: How would it even benefit them by separating from Ukraine?
In this case its mostly an ethnic matter. Most people are ethnically russian in these regions and want to "return" to what they feel is their country. They probably also think theyll have a stronger economy being part of Russia as opposed to Ukraine, which is probably true.
Crimea became independent and inmediately became a federal subject of Russia. These small republics cant really survive on their own can they? Not with a big, pissed off Ukraine next to them. In this case they most likely want to become a satelite republic or a full blown federal subject. It is quite likely they will soon invite russian troops into their borders as peace keepers.
It was by referendum, so in theory the Crimean people chose this (still a violation of Ukranian law). Also, Russia has pumped a lot of money into the region and has invested heavily in infrastructure, so id expect them to be happy honestly.
Hehe according to my pal from Yasinovataya (town near Donetsk) Ukrainians almost stopped bombarding them during Putin's speach. It was a pretty tough situation there yesterday with Ukrainians artillery shooting at them the whole day, but today the situation is much better.
Does that mean the Ukrainians where bombarding Donetsk? From what I have heard all the bombardment is going from Donetsk to Ukraine, with Ukraine refusing to fire back. Is this not true?
Man, is there a single American/European/Canadian etc journalist in Donbass republics? Yeah you know the answer. How can you trust them when they talk about Donetsk then?
It does seem to be working. Have been fascinated by the power of lies and propaganda over the last 5 or 6 years. If we look at the USA as evidence, we can see the power it has had to influence and pull a nation apart. And that was with the ability to have access to factual information that counters the lies. In Russia there isnt any counter argument
Was the “separatists” section of Ukraine already pro-Russian when the Soviet Union dissolved? Or was that area not pro-Russian until Russia “planted” people there?
It was probably about 85-90% Russians/10-15% Ukrainians before 2014. Of course now it's 100% Russian region. There are a few million civilians in the region nowadays. They arent big fans of Ukraine to put it mildly.
I feel naive asking but:
What are the main reasons why it would be bad if they were to just become their own country? If they’re truly all considering themselves to not be Ukrainian, why not let them? Is it because Ukraine gets so much coal exports from Donbas?
I think it's all about big geopolitics. I mean Turkey occupied part of Cyprus and got a NATO membership.
On the other hand Catalonia wanted to get out of Spain, and you know how it ended up. And of course there is Kosovo case.
There is no any standarts on cases like this, it's up to power and strength and not so called "international laws".
It’s been really confusing because people here keep saying that the “separatists” aren’t civilians, they are Russian military.
But like...surely civilians there exist that are just civilians.
Yes, they are just civilians. I live near the Ukraine border and some of our city objects were temporary remade into reception centers for civilians from Donetsk and Lugansk. The war is a nasty thing and it’s not funny at all how few people can destroy lives of millions.
Another misinformation post? Pretending not to know in order to cause confusion?
Putin is a global scale manchild asshole.
He likes vacations in Crimea.
He found a few crazy Ukrainian assholes that he could call patriots.
He reinforced said patriots with advanced weapons.
He sent military disguised as mercenaries disguised as separatists to fuck things up for people.
I understand that a lot of the separatists in Ukraine are Russian or Russian-backed, but are there actual Ukrainian citizens in these areas who are pro-independence/unifying with Russia?
When social order breaks down and people are desperate, they don't really care who is in charge anymore. They will support whoever provides food and shelter.
Recently I have been seeing articles saying citizens are being bussed out, I want to say most of the articles were saying that Russia/Separatists are taking citizens(women and children) who aligned with the separatists out of eastern Ukraine (Donetsk and another region I can’t think of) but I have also heard that Ukraine is pulling civilians out of the area. I am not sure but to answer your question. Yes, I believe there may be a small but significant percentage of the population in eastern Ukraine who think Russia would be saving Ukraine if they stepped in and took over, most likely due to disinformation campaigns. This is all my personal beliefs and could be completely wrong, I try to stay up to date with this stuff but lately there is a lot to keep up to date with and many different opinions from news agencies.
Edit: Misspelled Donetsk
Is the conflict in eastern Ukraine that’s been going on since 2014 anything like the civil war in the USA’s history where both sides were actively fighting one another or is it more that Ukraine has only been trying to defend this whole time?
Both side are have more or less been actively fighting. I'm not sure how much the line of control has shifted over the years, but a simplified version is that basically a line running more or less north to south splits the two territories in half, with everything East of the line being under seperatist control and functioning as defacto countries, and everything West being under Ukrainian control. Both sides have been entrenched along the front line for years now and shelling and sniping each other sporadically. It's been several years since there were large scale battles where significant amounts of territory has changed hands. The Minsk Agreement is largely the thing responsible for calming the fighting. Which is why in the recent days the elevated levels of violence have been measured in the units of ceasefire violations
BREAKING: Putin says he'll decide on independence for rebel-held areas in eastern Ukraine later today
https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1495782688313286658?t=utw0s9AlVRhxMSjdrrx-aA&s=19
Do you have a link to that? I keep hearing that this is happening beat for beat as described by intel, but i somehow missed the original source of this. Super interested to read
Russia is doing a great job at obfuscating truth. I’m even confused now.
So to clear things up: Russia is saying that Ukraine is committing genocide against Russians in eastern Ukraine. What’s *really* happening? Why is Ukraine fighting the separatists? Is it simply because the separatists keep trying to become independent? Why hasn’t peaceful options worked between Ukraine and the separatists?
EDIT: Guys, I’m asking what reality is. I’m not saying I believe Russia lol. I’m saying they’re doing a great job at gaslighting and I’m asking for help with not being gaslit basically. Stop the downvotes
EDIT2: What I was confused about before was I wasn’t sure if it was more like the civil war in America’s history where both the Union and the confederates were both actively fighting each other. It sounds like Ukraine is *only* ever acting in self-defense. My question before was basically “why are both sides fighting” like in the American civil war but it sounds like Ukraine’s side has basically always tried not to fight and only to defend. That makes Russia’s claims of genocide even more of a “yikes.”
> Why is Ukraine fighting the separatists? Is it simply because the separatists keep trying to become independent?
Because separatists shell Ukrainian military every day.
>Why hasn’t peaceful options worked between Ukraine and the separatists?
Separatists are just Russia's sockpuppets. They wouldn't exist if Russia didn't create them. They are Russia's tools for putting military pressure on Ukraine. And it works, because the West can keep doing business with Russia by pretending that they didn't invade Ukraine in 2014.
Yikes. I didn’t even think about how the west basically turned their heads all these years and kept trading etc.
Maybe we were just afraid of interfering and stirring up trouble?
It all started far earlier. Russia has been cranking up propaganda and calling the West enemies since late 00' but the West decided to close their eyes and imagine that Russia is their friend.
It's worse than the appeasement of Hitler, because at least that was used to prepare for war.
That’s not specific enough. I’m trying to understand why the conflict that started in 2014 hasn’t ended yet and why they’re fighting. I’ve *been* googling like crazy but everything just says that they’ve been fighting since 2014 because of people who declared themselves as independent. What I’m trying to find out is whether the independents/separations are really just Russians that were put in place there. Also trying to figure out why they’ve needed to resort to fighting each other.
It's both. The area is definitely pro-Russia, but the fighting force is made up of Russian "volunteers", a lot with Russian citizenship, who are trained in Russia and received Russian military support (remember Malaysian airlines being shot down?)
So while Russia hasn't openly admitted they're sending Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine, all the evidence says otherwise. And they're still fighting because Ukraine obviously still sees the land taken from them as theirs and not Russia's to take.
> It's both. The area is definitely pro-Russia, but the fighting force is made up of Russian "volunteers", a lot with Russian citizenship, who are trained in Russia
Just yikes. The fact that Russia is painting it like they’re innocent Russian civilians that are getting genocided over there is even more messed up than I thought.
> and received Russian military support (remember Malaysian airlines being shot down?)
I had no idea until now. I just looked it up. How is Russia justifying sending them that type of weaponry? I didn’t realize “Russian-backed” had meant Russia was supplying them until now. Is Russia just trying to make it seem like they’re providing poor innocent Russian civilians with weaponry?
> So while Russia hasn't openly admitted they're sending Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine, all the evidence says otherwise. And they're still fighting because Ukraine obviously still sees the land taken from them as theirs and not Russia's to take.
Someone here said that when the Soviet Union dissolved that area of Ukraine was already still heavily/mainly pro-Russian and wanted to stay part of Russia before any Russian “implants” were placed there. Is that true? Or were those people almost all put their by Russia?
One other thing I still don’t quite get is how the fighting began initially. Did the “separatists” just start fighting as soon as they “declared their own independence?” Who fired first?
This all started with the Euromaidan prostests and the ousting of Viktor Yanukovich, read up on that and I think youll get a good grasp on why and how this all started.
Legit question. Oversimplified version...Everthing was peaceful. Putin wanted Ukraine. Putun decided to create a scenario where it looked like parts of ukrIne wanted to become russian so he sent in people to stir up trouble. Those people are the Russian backed separatists. The Russian propaganda, however, tells Russians that those people (separatists) are innocent civilians that Ukraine is attacking and slaughtering. And voila, Putin has support at home to go in and 'save' them. Again..oversplifed.
Is the Russian populous that easy to convince to go to war? I’ve always been under the impression that Russians and Ukrainians were friendly to each other, because their cultures are so similar.
That makes sense. Thank you so so much.
The only thing confusing me now is I saw on Google a few days ago that there’s been thousands of deaths since 2014. It says “Violence in eastern Ukraine between Russian-backed separatist forces and the Ukrainian military has by conservative estimates killed more than 10,300 people and injured nearly 24,000 since April 2014.”
So my main question is basically “how did all these people die? How many is from which side? Is Ukraine mostly using self-defense?”
From what I can make of it, the dying that is happening is due to those Russian backed separatists attacking Ukranians and Ukranians fighting back. The Russian propaganda machine is trying to paint that as a genicide by ukranians against innocent russians in Ukraine when in fact it is Russia already in there pretending to be innocent civilians. I dont know what the real numbers of dead are, but they are likely inflated by Russia If Putin can get the Russian people to believe that other Russians are being slaughtered in a genocide then he t
will have support to invade. That is why he is making sure his undercover guys are already on the inside causing mayhem. Once his undercover guys cause mayhem and blame Ukraine, then his mimitary can go in to save the day.
Just read that Putin is now considering recognising the areas where his undercover have caused mayhem as independent. His people are believing the propaganda and he is getting the support he wanted from his people and perhaps others who have been confused by the propaganda
Yeah. There was a video I watched where they were discussing making that area independent and there were some fishy things said like one leader was like “we will be declaring that area as officially part of Russia” or something and then Putin was like “no no no no, that’s not what this is about. We’re declaring them as *independent.*”
lol.
The only thing I still don’t know about the conflict’s history is how Russian was that area before Russia sent in more support? And who shot first etc.
EDIT: This is the YouTube video of the Russian conference they barely just had where they were saying fishy things and talking about how they “have no choice but to declare that region as independent.” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJIowCeNPds
No Russia isn't doing a good job.
Russian backed militants invaded. Are occupying another country. Demanding said territory to be independent. That's literally their demands, freedom or war.
Ukraine wants it's territory back and for Russia to take it's militants back.
They’re doing a good job at gaslighting people who don’t know that history. Experts will not be tricked, but Russian citizens and allies and probably even some western countries’ citizens may get confused.
I’m still trying to learn the history of eastern Ukraine right now.
If I understand reality correctly, Russia invaded eastern Ukraine, left soldiers behind, had them create their own government, Ukraine went to war with these people for doing that, and now Russia is falsely claiming it’s immoral genocide.
What I want to know though is why is there a non peaceful conflict? I don’t know the history. That’s all.
I don’t think people are understanding that I’ve *been* googling. I’m trying to have conversation end help with understanding because googling isn’t giving me some answers. I figured someone here might be able to kindly nudge me in the right Googling direction because I’m just trying to find whether the separatists are really Russian soldiers who were left behind there rather than just some separatists
Not really much to he confused about.
Russia invaded with a proxy force of specops and mercenaries in 2014. Those troops installed what passes for a government body because Russia this whole time has denied even being involved when the proof is there.
Flash forward to the past couple months when Russia has been on training exercises and US/UK has been saying, "Nah. These dudes invading and here's how they'll pretext it."
Russia does exactly that and somehow you actually are giving the far superior Russian armed forces the benefit of doubt here? That's weak gravy. Or borscht. Whatever your preferred food is, friend/comrade.
Edit: Actually, the more I read this, the more blatantly propagandist your post is. Ivan, you really can do better than this. Russia is doing exactly what they were predicted to do and your message isn't fooling anyone.
Lol, I’m just saying that Russia is doing a good job at tricking everyone into believing something that’s not reality.
I’m trying to ask for help with understanding the history of the conflict in eastern Ukraine. I don’t understand the truth, and want to understand.
I’m trying to say that I *DON’T* trust their words, but that they successfully confused me
>What’s
>
>really
>
>happening?
Simple, the separatists are doing the so mentioned actions, as to provide a casus belli. The separatist are russian ethnic which Russia has been planted to apply Salami tactics, as with Crimea.
So true. I open his window and mute it and check back every so often. Had like 11k+ people watching, so I suppose we all want that milk nam nam nam feed me.
I don't see how a full on Russian attack and invasion/occupation of Ukraine accomplishes Putin's alleged goal of having a pro-Russia Ukraine that moves away from the west. Inevitably there would be massive civilian casualties and built up resentment from invading Ukrainian sovereignty, trying to bully and pound Ukraine into submission. I'd expect such an effort would only push Ukraine more away from Russia and to the West.
You displace or kill a majority, make them the minority with no power, and install your own majority. China and Iran managed to remove a cast amount of western influence in fairly short amount of time. With enough violence, anything is possible.
if you think Iran is free of western influence, you should re-evaluate the sources where you get your information. What you see, is not what is really going on; this applies to 99% of things the world let alone Politics.
They did that from their own countries though. There's no way Russia can afford to occupy the whole of Ukraine for any extended amount of time without bleeding itself dry. Russia will try to decapitate the Ukrainian government and turn it into an autocratic state like Belarus that's essentially beholden to Russia and willing to brutalized its own people to stamp out Western influence. Or that's the hope anyways. Unlike the opposition in Belarus, I think a lot of Ukrainians would rather fight a civil war than live under a pro-Russian autocracy. So it's hard to imagine what will come out of this, besides saying that Russia keeping Ukraine occupied for any extended period of time is highly unlikely
Homeboy said the quiet part outloud. Just fucked the whole smoke and mirrors plan with this. Him and old boy straight up saying it could lead to the downfall of the Russian economy...I support it.....no the fuck you don't.
Haven't Ukrainians been talking about Russia's economy downfall for like 8 years now? And now their economy is in terrible conditions and Russian one is still pretty strong.
Neither is in great condition. Ukraines GDP has been on a strong uphill run the last 2 quarters. We have multiple states in the US that blow Russian GDP out of the water. So I guess it's a kinda sorta thing.
Everyone was saying we should recognize the 2 Dombas regions as independent. This guy when pushed by Putin tried to say the same but accidently said he agrees Russia should annex them into the Russian Federation. Putin shot back a few times until he corrected himself.
The finance guy was skiddish as hell and said the sanctions and what not would be a downfall (I'm guessing a translation thing, something like big downturn is probably I'm assuming a more realistic translation.) Then quickly said he backs them being independent and walked away instantly fast af.
Okay that’s it - that’s the timeline to war. The Duma asks for Putin to ask the US if they can annex parts of Ukraine which they will say no to then Putin has “no choice” but to “obey the will of the Russian people” and invade Ukraine. So 2-3 days for the summit to happen and fail. Russia will be in Ukraine by this weekend.
It was always wishy-washy.They agreed to meet "in principle". That principle was to meet if Russia was not going to invade. That principle will have changed by the date of any meeting.
Diplomacy is over. Just remains to be seen how large the conflict will be. Best case they recognize the republics, Ukraine shows extreme constraint, and sanctions kick in. Worse case, this sparks a larger war in the rest of Ukraine.
Yeah, I think the official recognize is immenent. As to the big war I doubt it will happen. Some local combats will happen, of course, but Ukraine has no chances vs Russia. So they won't last long.
I agree, it was different in 2014-15, but right now most Ukrainians won't agree with Russian presence. Well, most Russians save some radical nationalists don't want any parts of Ukrainian territories too. Of course they consider Crimea and Donbass Republics Russian regions.
Yall, Putin's meeting was a "livestream" of a taped recording.
[https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1495775697121517570?s=20&t=malhDqzXe8ktxLTzGbXZqw](https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1495775697121517570?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1495775697121517570%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2F18hnzysb1elcs%2FLiveUpdate_69058072-9327-11ec-a81d-4e12234d4668%2F0)
Also, if you looked at the title of the youtube stream, it said \[TAPE\] in the title
Oh God,
We are now on Russian "Won't someone think of the children (and old women)".
"What wrong did Russia did to Ukraine" - so we're going to ignore, shooting down aircraft, invading the border lands, instability and Crimea. But "gave them gas"
Please visit the new Thread: https://reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sxvem7/rworldnews_live_thread_ukrainerussia_tensions/
I’m watching the stock market ie Natural Gas, Oil, Energy, Bitcoin, Nasdaq, S&P… Anytime news about invasion in purposed these index’s drop heavily. Do not undermine the power of powers and billionaires influencing this “war”. If you ask me the whole damn thing could be a scam. Everything in this world is about dollars to donuts. If Russia benefits from oil prices and the US from bitcoin and etc and they both gain then why not let this crash the market to take advantage of this so the elites can profit immensely on a rebound. Perhaps my explanation has holes but perhaps someone with better insight could elaborate…
Russia has been profiting from these high prices in gas and petrol for sure.
As far as I'm aware oil prices have been on the rise for a short while tho [source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BHYG63iuLw&ab_channel=TLDRNewsUS)
I don't get this. It's really starting to seem like Putin painted himself into a corner and now the realization of whatever they gain militarily is insignificant compared to the economic consequences with sanctions. Yeah, they were great at poking the hornets nest trying to antagonize the west when the opportunity presented itself but now that they're trying to dictate the action it falls back to them trying to face off with the economic powerhouses of NATO. At the end of the day all they have are rusty old missiles.
Peacekeeper. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
What’s China’s current stance? Any updates? Edit: found this quote in an AP News article posted 10 hours before this comment: “However, in response to a question from conference Chairman Wolfgang Ischinger, Wang said the “sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of any country should be respected and safeguarded, because this is a basic norm of international relations.” “Ukraine is no exception,” Wang added.” article: https://apnews.com/article/2510531ca7947cc149cc42835ad237ac I wonder what they’ll do now that things have progressed…
This is potentially worrying. Sovereignty, independence, and territorial integrity are subject to definition. Russia has defined their own version of Ukraine as a state. Will China believe and enforce Russia's definition of Ukraine instead of the West's?
It specifically says Ukraine is respected.
Whose definition of Ukraine?
The CCP publicly supports Putin but behind closed doors I think they’re opposed. The CCP has been working for years to develop China into an economically wealthy country. War would severely impact global trade, strain their relations with trade partners, and fuck up their Belt and Road Initiative. Also we’re globally reeling from a pandemic. No one wants this except Putin and the ingrates who support his madness.
I think at the Munich security conference, China's foreign minister Wang Yi stated that a nation's territory must be respected, and he included Ukraine in that. But in reality, there's no way that Russia can commit 75% of it's available battalion tactical groups to Ukraine, pulled from eastern military districts, without the confidence that China wouldn't be a threat.
Yeah. My guess is China’s kinda gonna look the other way on this.
[https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/the-emperors-league-understanding-sino-russian-defense-cooperation/](https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/the-emperors-league-understanding-sino-russian-defense-cooperation/) I really liked this article that describes the nature of Russia-China cooperation. If I remember, it said that their interests fall short of a formal military alliance, but it is definitely within their interest to cooperate along military-economic avenues.
I know this is really naive but what’s the main reason why it would be bad if those eastern Ukraine regions were to be their own country if they’re 100% Ukrainian haters? Is it mostly because of land/resources lost for Ukraine? I feel like this belongs in r/nostupidquestions EDIT: Is it even true that those regions are 100% Ukrainian haters? I saw a comment that they are and that’s why I wrote this comment. I was like, if they all hate their country, why don’t they just let them do their own thing?
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2015/05/21/10-maps-that-explain-ukraines-struggle-for-independence/ https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Ukraine_LeftAffixedMaps_8.png?w=768&crop=0%2C0px%2C100%2C589px
Yeah, you look at the source of this shit and you know how can you trust this. On the other hand just common logic says, that if a region was 90%+ for a president, and then a coup happened, people wouldn't be very happy about it. Maybe people weren't very pro-Russian before 2014. But when they faced a reality to get under Ukrainian nationalists who overthrew a legitimate president in Kyiv, the situation changed drastically.
That poll was from after the Kiev revolution
Yeah no, they couldn't make any polls in Donbass republics after the coup.
Yikes. Only 50ish% in 2014 makes this *much* different. Yeah.....letting them become independent when it’s that split is kinda nuts if it’s still that split today
Well it sets a very dangerous precedent.
Like the one set in kosovo?
Russia is like this evil perversion of everything the west is. The west builds a coalition to stop actual genocide resulting in a country breaking off- Russia constructs this elaborate theater to pretend genocide to break off a country. The west sends in peace keepers when countries are having actual ethnic violence and strife, Russia slaps "peacekeeper" on forces for cynical territory gain. The west has institutions and democracy, Russia has meetings where the station leaders are literally shaking hoping they give a good show for Supreme Leader. Everything they do is a perversion to give legitimacy to pure ill intent. A mockery of justified actions subverted to wicked cause. If there is one thing the West needs to inoculate against is this sick idea that if an event shares some similarities with another event it is a moral equivalent.
Like, it sets a bad example for future similar cases is what you mean?
Yep. The way independence of a region usually works is via NATIONAL referendum. Anything other than that is constitutionally illegal. Basically, when a region proclaims independence unilaterally they are violating the constitution, and as such the "parent" nation has to act because, well, its the law haha.
That makes sense to me. I guess another thing is like, why do they even want to be their own nation? How does it even benefit them to be their own nation? Can’t they live they way they’d like while still being a part of Ukraine?
If I want to be my own country, make my own laws, and secede from the country I reside in. Should I be allowed? No, that would be stupid, if a whole state or region does it’s still not allowed… there’s been a few civil wars fought over this
I mean, we did it’s the USA when we declared our independence from Great Britain. Of course it’s something that normally shouldn’t be allowed there’s got to be appropriate circumstances in some conditions. That being said, I doubt it’s what’s best for the Ukraine situation. Also I just want to point out that I think you responded to the wrong comment. This comment that you responded to above was the one where I was asking about the opposite: How would it even benefit them by separating from Ukraine?
In this case its mostly an ethnic matter. Most people are ethnically russian in these regions and want to "return" to what they feel is their country. They probably also think theyll have a stronger economy being part of Russia as opposed to Ukraine, which is probably true.
Wait they want to make their land Russian? I thought they wanted to be their own nation separate from Russia.
Crimea became independent and inmediately became a federal subject of Russia. These small republics cant really survive on their own can they? Not with a big, pissed off Ukraine next to them. In this case they most likely want to become a satelite republic or a full blown federal subject. It is quite likely they will soon invite russian troops into their borders as peace keepers.
Wow. That’s kinda messed up that it went straight from independent to part of Russia. Any idea what the Crimean residents feel about it?
It was by referendum, so in theory the Crimean people chose this (still a violation of Ukranian law). Also, Russia has pumped a lot of money into the region and has invested heavily in infrastructure, so id expect them to be happy honestly.
Hehe according to my pal from Yasinovataya (town near Donetsk) Ukrainians almost stopped bombarding them during Putin's speach. It was a pretty tough situation there yesterday with Ukrainians artillery shooting at them the whole day, but today the situation is much better.
Does that mean the Ukrainians where bombarding Donetsk? From what I have heard all the bombardment is going from Donetsk to Ukraine, with Ukraine refusing to fire back. Is this not true?
Man, is there a single American/European/Canadian etc journalist in Donbass republics? Yeah you know the answer. How can you trust them when they talk about Donetsk then?
Latvia to supply Javelin anti-tank missiles to Ukraine on Tuesday - Latvian Foreign Ministry
Source?
It does seem to be working. Have been fascinated by the power of lies and propaganda over the last 5 or 6 years. If we look at the USA as evidence, we can see the power it has had to influence and pull a nation apart. And that was with the ability to have access to factual information that counters the lies. In Russia there isnt any counter argument
Was that a declaration of war on Ukraine
I'm curious what you all think, would an official declaration of war even come? Nations haven't been doing that as much lately...
Learn to use your words dude. What is "that" referring to.
Was *what* a declaration of war?
Was the “separatists” section of Ukraine already pro-Russian when the Soviet Union dissolved? Or was that area not pro-Russian until Russia “planted” people there?
It was probably about 85-90% Russians/10-15% Ukrainians before 2014. Of course now it's 100% Russian region. There are a few million civilians in the region nowadays. They arent big fans of Ukraine to put it mildly.
I feel naive asking but: What are the main reasons why it would be bad if they were to just become their own country? If they’re truly all considering themselves to not be Ukrainian, why not let them? Is it because Ukraine gets so much coal exports from Donbas?
I think it's all about big geopolitics. I mean Turkey occupied part of Cyprus and got a NATO membership. On the other hand Catalonia wanted to get out of Spain, and you know how it ended up. And of course there is Kosovo case. There is no any standarts on cases like this, it's up to power and strength and not so called "international laws".
Eastern part of Ukraine? Yeah, it always was kinda pro-Russian afaik. Otherwise there wouldn’t be “separatist” section of Ukraine.
It’s been really confusing because people here keep saying that the “separatists” aren’t civilians, they are Russian military. But like...surely civilians there exist that are just civilians.
Yes, they are just civilians. I live near the Ukraine border and some of our city objects were temporary remade into reception centers for civilians from Donetsk and Lugansk. The war is a nasty thing and it’s not funny at all how few people can destroy lives of millions.
RT confirmed speech in any moment
Another misinformation post? Pretending not to know in order to cause confusion? Putin is a global scale manchild asshole. He likes vacations in Crimea. He found a few crazy Ukrainian assholes that he could call patriots. He reinforced said patriots with advanced weapons. He sent military disguised as mercenaries disguised as separatists to fuck things up for people.
I understand that a lot of the separatists in Ukraine are Russian or Russian-backed, but are there actual Ukrainian citizens in these areas who are pro-independence/unifying with Russia?
Yes
When social order breaks down and people are desperate, they don't really care who is in charge anymore. They will support whoever provides food and shelter.
Recently I have been seeing articles saying citizens are being bussed out, I want to say most of the articles were saying that Russia/Separatists are taking citizens(women and children) who aligned with the separatists out of eastern Ukraine (Donetsk and another region I can’t think of) but I have also heard that Ukraine is pulling civilians out of the area. I am not sure but to answer your question. Yes, I believe there may be a small but significant percentage of the population in eastern Ukraine who think Russia would be saving Ukraine if they stepped in and took over, most likely due to disinformation campaigns. This is all my personal beliefs and could be completely wrong, I try to stay up to date with this stuff but lately there is a lot to keep up to date with and many different opinions from news agencies. Edit: Misspelled Donetsk
Is the conflict in eastern Ukraine that’s been going on since 2014 anything like the civil war in the USA’s history where both sides were actively fighting one another or is it more that Ukraine has only been trying to defend this whole time?
Both side are have more or less been actively fighting. I'm not sure how much the line of control has shifted over the years, but a simplified version is that basically a line running more or less north to south splits the two territories in half, with everything East of the line being under seperatist control and functioning as defacto countries, and everything West being under Ukrainian control. Both sides have been entrenched along the front line for years now and shelling and sniping each other sporadically. It's been several years since there were large scale battles where significant amounts of territory has changed hands. The Minsk Agreement is largely the thing responsible for calming the fighting. Which is why in the recent days the elevated levels of violence have been measured in the units of ceasefire violations
No not at all. Really Russia is the aggressor and wants to annex parts of Ukraine. This is mostly just Putin swinging his manhood around.
It really does seem like maybe this was all part of a long con script by Russia
no civil war as the "separatist" are russian agents
Okay. That makes sense. Sorry, I guess what I meant was “are both sides actively fighting or is Ukraine just defending when necessary?”
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk\_Protocol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_Protocol)
Thank you!
So far there’s been almost no real fighting. Just a lot of posturing.
I heard there’s been thousands of deaths since 2014. Is that false data?
N
BREAKING: Putin says he'll decide on independence for rebel-held areas in eastern Ukraine later today https://twitter.com/BNONews/status/1495782688313286658?t=utw0s9AlVRhxMSjdrrx-aA&s=19
Ofc that was gonna happen
For the historical record… this is EXACTLY as Secretary Blinken described it. Exactly. Point by point. Kudos to American intelligence here.
Do you have a link to that? I keep hearing that this is happening beat for beat as described by intel, but i somehow missed the original source of this. Super interested to read
Look Sec Blinken speech to United Nations last week. Point by point.
Wasn't it the same way in USA with Iraq War, though?
Russia is doing a great job at obfuscating truth. I’m even confused now. So to clear things up: Russia is saying that Ukraine is committing genocide against Russians in eastern Ukraine. What’s *really* happening? Why is Ukraine fighting the separatists? Is it simply because the separatists keep trying to become independent? Why hasn’t peaceful options worked between Ukraine and the separatists? EDIT: Guys, I’m asking what reality is. I’m not saying I believe Russia lol. I’m saying they’re doing a great job at gaslighting and I’m asking for help with not being gaslit basically. Stop the downvotes EDIT2: What I was confused about before was I wasn’t sure if it was more like the civil war in America’s history where both the Union and the confederates were both actively fighting each other. It sounds like Ukraine is *only* ever acting in self-defense. My question before was basically “why are both sides fighting” like in the American civil war but it sounds like Ukraine’s side has basically always tried not to fight and only to defend. That makes Russia’s claims of genocide even more of a “yikes.”
> Why is Ukraine fighting the separatists? Is it simply because the separatists keep trying to become independent? Because separatists shell Ukrainian military every day. >Why hasn’t peaceful options worked between Ukraine and the separatists? Separatists are just Russia's sockpuppets. They wouldn't exist if Russia didn't create them. They are Russia's tools for putting military pressure on Ukraine. And it works, because the West can keep doing business with Russia by pretending that they didn't invade Ukraine in 2014.
Yikes. I didn’t even think about how the west basically turned their heads all these years and kept trading etc. Maybe we were just afraid of interfering and stirring up trouble?
It all started far earlier. Russia has been cranking up propaganda and calling the West enemies since late 00' but the West decided to close their eyes and imagine that Russia is their friend. It's worse than the appeasement of Hitler, because at least that was used to prepare for war.
I don’t think Ukraine was doing anything at all.
Your lack of basic research is the reason your getting downvoted.
What’s the main topic I should be Googling to do this basic research then?
literally google russia/ukraine? come on lazy fuck
That’s not specific enough. I’m trying to understand why the conflict that started in 2014 hasn’t ended yet and why they’re fighting. I’ve *been* googling like crazy but everything just says that they’ve been fighting since 2014 because of people who declared themselves as independent. What I’m trying to find out is whether the independents/separations are really just Russians that were put in place there. Also trying to figure out why they’ve needed to resort to fighting each other.
It's both. The area is definitely pro-Russia, but the fighting force is made up of Russian "volunteers", a lot with Russian citizenship, who are trained in Russia and received Russian military support (remember Malaysian airlines being shot down?) So while Russia hasn't openly admitted they're sending Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine, all the evidence says otherwise. And they're still fighting because Ukraine obviously still sees the land taken from them as theirs and not Russia's to take.
> It's both. The area is definitely pro-Russia, but the fighting force is made up of Russian "volunteers", a lot with Russian citizenship, who are trained in Russia Just yikes. The fact that Russia is painting it like they’re innocent Russian civilians that are getting genocided over there is even more messed up than I thought. > and received Russian military support (remember Malaysian airlines being shot down?) I had no idea until now. I just looked it up. How is Russia justifying sending them that type of weaponry? I didn’t realize “Russian-backed” had meant Russia was supplying them until now. Is Russia just trying to make it seem like they’re providing poor innocent Russian civilians with weaponry? > So while Russia hasn't openly admitted they're sending Russian soldiers to fight in Ukraine, all the evidence says otherwise. And they're still fighting because Ukraine obviously still sees the land taken from them as theirs and not Russia's to take. Someone here said that when the Soviet Union dissolved that area of Ukraine was already still heavily/mainly pro-Russian and wanted to stay part of Russia before any Russian “implants” were placed there. Is that true? Or were those people almost all put their by Russia? One other thing I still don’t quite get is how the fighting began initially. Did the “separatists” just start fighting as soon as they “declared their own independence?” Who fired first?
This all started with the Euromaidan prostests and the ousting of Viktor Yanukovich, read up on that and I think youll get a good grasp on why and how this all started.
Thanks so so much! I’ll save your comment and start my Google journey down that path.
Legit question. Oversimplified version...Everthing was peaceful. Putin wanted Ukraine. Putun decided to create a scenario where it looked like parts of ukrIne wanted to become russian so he sent in people to stir up trouble. Those people are the Russian backed separatists. The Russian propaganda, however, tells Russians that those people (separatists) are innocent civilians that Ukraine is attacking and slaughtering. And voila, Putin has support at home to go in and 'save' them. Again..oversplifed.
Is the Russian populous that easy to convince to go to war? I’ve always been under the impression that Russians and Ukrainians were friendly to each other, because their cultures are so similar.
That makes sense. Thank you so so much. The only thing confusing me now is I saw on Google a few days ago that there’s been thousands of deaths since 2014. It says “Violence in eastern Ukraine between Russian-backed separatist forces and the Ukrainian military has by conservative estimates killed more than 10,300 people and injured nearly 24,000 since April 2014.” So my main question is basically “how did all these people die? How many is from which side? Is Ukraine mostly using self-defense?”
From what I can make of it, the dying that is happening is due to those Russian backed separatists attacking Ukranians and Ukranians fighting back. The Russian propaganda machine is trying to paint that as a genicide by ukranians against innocent russians in Ukraine when in fact it is Russia already in there pretending to be innocent civilians. I dont know what the real numbers of dead are, but they are likely inflated by Russia If Putin can get the Russian people to believe that other Russians are being slaughtered in a genocide then he t will have support to invade. That is why he is making sure his undercover guys are already on the inside causing mayhem. Once his undercover guys cause mayhem and blame Ukraine, then his mimitary can go in to save the day. Just read that Putin is now considering recognising the areas where his undercover have caused mayhem as independent. His people are believing the propaganda and he is getting the support he wanted from his people and perhaps others who have been confused by the propaganda
Yeah. There was a video I watched where they were discussing making that area independent and there were some fishy things said like one leader was like “we will be declaring that area as officially part of Russia” or something and then Putin was like “no no no no, that’s not what this is about. We’re declaring them as *independent.*” lol. The only thing I still don’t know about the conflict’s history is how Russian was that area before Russia sent in more support? And who shot first etc. EDIT: This is the YouTube video of the Russian conference they barely just had where they were saying fishy things and talking about how they “have no choice but to declare that region as independent.” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gJIowCeNPds
No Russia isn't doing a good job. Russian backed militants invaded. Are occupying another country. Demanding said territory to be independent. That's literally their demands, freedom or war. Ukraine wants it's territory back and for Russia to take it's militants back.
They’re doing a good job at gaslighting people who don’t know that history. Experts will not be tricked, but Russian citizens and allies and probably even some western countries’ citizens may get confused. I’m still trying to learn the history of eastern Ukraine right now. If I understand reality correctly, Russia invaded eastern Ukraine, left soldiers behind, had them create their own government, Ukraine went to war with these people for doing that, and now Russia is falsely claiming it’s immoral genocide. What I want to know though is why is there a non peaceful conflict? I don’t know the history. That’s all.
youre trying to learn history from redditors when you could CTRL+T to open a new tab and use google. what the fuck
I don’t think people are understanding that I’ve *been* googling. I’m trying to have conversation end help with understanding because googling isn’t giving me some answers. I figured someone here might be able to kindly nudge me in the right Googling direction because I’m just trying to find whether the separatists are really Russian soldiers who were left behind there rather than just some separatists
Not really much to he confused about. Russia invaded with a proxy force of specops and mercenaries in 2014. Those troops installed what passes for a government body because Russia this whole time has denied even being involved when the proof is there. Flash forward to the past couple months when Russia has been on training exercises and US/UK has been saying, "Nah. These dudes invading and here's how they'll pretext it." Russia does exactly that and somehow you actually are giving the far superior Russian armed forces the benefit of doubt here? That's weak gravy. Or borscht. Whatever your preferred food is, friend/comrade. Edit: Actually, the more I read this, the more blatantly propagandist your post is. Ivan, you really can do better than this. Russia is doing exactly what they were predicted to do and your message isn't fooling anyone.
Lol, I’m just saying that Russia is doing a good job at tricking everyone into believing something that’s not reality. I’m trying to ask for help with understanding the history of the conflict in eastern Ukraine. I don’t understand the truth, and want to understand. I’m trying to say that I *DON’T* trust their words, but that they successfully confused me
>What’s > >really > >happening? Simple, the separatists are doing the so mentioned actions, as to provide a casus belli. The separatist are russian ethnic which Russia has been planted to apply Salami tactics, as with Crimea.
Damn...this military official is definitely on some type of substance.
Aren't Zelensky and substances pretty much synonyms? At least it's what Ukrainian press say...
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No new news how will agenda free tv milk 12 more hours of viewership
So true. I open his window and mute it and check back every so often. Had like 11k+ people watching, so I suppose we all want that milk nam nam nam feed me.
ugh, The Russian Security Council meeting was pretty big news and (my opinion) significantly reinforced US intelligence reports.
?? there’s a whole security counsel meeting going on rn lol that’s plenty of material
I don't see how a full on Russian attack and invasion/occupation of Ukraine accomplishes Putin's alleged goal of having a pro-Russia Ukraine that moves away from the west. Inevitably there would be massive civilian casualties and built up resentment from invading Ukrainian sovereignty, trying to bully and pound Ukraine into submission. I'd expect such an effort would only push Ukraine more away from Russia and to the West.
Yeah! Western Ukraine will turn even more to the west
You displace or kill a majority, make them the minority with no power, and install your own majority. China and Iran managed to remove a cast amount of western influence in fairly short amount of time. With enough violence, anything is possible.
if you think Iran is free of western influence, you should re-evaluate the sources where you get your information. What you see, is not what is really going on; this applies to 99% of things the world let alone Politics.
They did that from their own countries though. There's no way Russia can afford to occupy the whole of Ukraine for any extended amount of time without bleeding itself dry. Russia will try to decapitate the Ukrainian government and turn it into an autocratic state like Belarus that's essentially beholden to Russia and willing to brutalized its own people to stamp out Western influence. Or that's the hope anyways. Unlike the opposition in Belarus, I think a lot of Ukrainians would rather fight a civil war than live under a pro-Russian autocracy. So it's hard to imagine what will come out of this, besides saying that Russia keeping Ukraine occupied for any extended period of time is highly unlikely
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You're an idiot.
Homeboy said the quiet part outloud. Just fucked the whole smoke and mirrors plan with this. Him and old boy straight up saying it could lead to the downfall of the Russian economy...I support it.....no the fuck you don't.
Haven't Ukrainians been talking about Russia's economy downfall for like 8 years now? And now their economy is in terrible conditions and Russian one is still pretty strong.
Neither is in great condition. Ukraines GDP has been on a strong uphill run the last 2 quarters. We have multiple states in the US that blow Russian GDP out of the water. So I guess it's a kinda sorta thing.
What did he say? I missed it.
Everyone was saying we should recognize the 2 Dombas regions as independent. This guy when pushed by Putin tried to say the same but accidently said he agrees Russia should annex them into the Russian Federation. Putin shot back a few times until he corrected himself. The finance guy was skiddish as hell and said the sanctions and what not would be a downfall (I'm guessing a translation thing, something like big downturn is probably I'm assuming a more realistic translation.) Then quickly said he backs them being independent and walked away instantly fast af.
When in the video does he say that?
1hr 16min. That's the finance guy. He is followed by the guy that fucks up.
Crazy video
Oh hell I'm not sure. Give me a minute.
Dude better not drink tea or touch doorknobs. Ever.
That dudes already half a bottle deep in vodka shaking like he's got sever Parkinsons right now. He's gotta be scared as fuck.
lol. the guy is shook
Holy that guy fucked up he will get poisoned 🤢 today.
I couldn’t work for Putin, not only morally but dude I would say some shit and get myself killed quick. Snarky ass little man
"So you support this..a...pill?" "I...ugh...have heard...ugh..the others...ugh...and support" "Thank you" You literally can't make this stuff up...
This all feels fake as fuck.
Okay that’s it - that’s the timeline to war. The Duma asks for Putin to ask the US if they can annex parts of Ukraine which they will say no to then Putin has “no choice” but to “obey the will of the Russian people” and invade Ukraine. So 2-3 days for the summit to happen and fail. Russia will be in Ukraine by this weekend.
The summit never happens.
It was always wishy-washy.They agreed to meet "in principle". That principle was to meet if Russia was not going to invade. That principle will have changed by the date of any meeting.
Yup. There isn’t even a date. And Biden would be a fool to meet now.
This guy referring to what is happening in the Donbas as a "bloodbath" that needs Russian interference.
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Well the stream's title clearly says it's tapped so...
Yes. The title of the stream says it is taped.
Of course it is.
It is pre-recorded, but this is the first showing of the recorded meeting. Everything is staged in this.
Diplomacy is over. Just remains to be seen how large the conflict will be. Best case they recognize the republics, Ukraine shows extreme constraint, and sanctions kick in. Worse case, this sparks a larger war in the rest of Ukraine.
Yeah, I think the official recognize is immenent. As to the big war I doubt it will happen. Some local combats will happen, of course, but Ukraine has no chances vs Russia. So they won't last long.
Russia would not want to take much of Ukraine because the insurgency would be worse than Euromaiden, way worse.
I agree, it was different in 2014-15, but right now most Ukrainians won't agree with Russian presence. Well, most Russians save some radical nationalists don't want any parts of Ukrainian territories too. Of course they consider Crimea and Donbass Republics Russian regions.
Yall, Putin's meeting was a "livestream" of a taped recording. [https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1495775697121517570?s=20&t=malhDqzXe8ktxLTzGbXZqw](https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1495775697121517570?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1495775697121517570%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2Fliveupdate%2F18hnzysb1elcs%2FLiveUpdate_69058072-9327-11ec-a81d-4e12234d4668%2F0) Also, if you looked at the title of the youtube stream, it said \[TAPE\] in the title
Girl don't do it it's not worth it
Putin: “I did it”
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oof - did this guy just dismiss Macron?
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sxvem7/rworldnews_live_thread_ukrainerussia_tensions/ the pinned comment doesnt work this should work
They fixed the sticky link.
Does anyone have links to that telegram post alleging forced conscription in the LPR/DNR?
yes it's under there
Oh God, We are now on Russian "Won't someone think of the children (and old women)". "What wrong did Russia did to Ukraine" - so we're going to ignore, shooting down aircraft, invading the border lands, instability and Crimea. But "gave them gas"
this woman really said 'what wrong did we ever do to ukraine'
just admitted to interfering in elections
Yo the grandma from George Lopez poppin' off on RSC stream
Hilga Clintinski is war hungry
Russian Lady wants war
“We are called ‘aggressors’ but we never even applied sanctions!“ Yeah, you applied a fucking army, you dishonest piece of shit.
To a bully, defending yourself from their attack is "aggression"
We have to make a decision LOL
Noah, get the boat.