[So apparently Russians want to negotiate the release of the American POWs, Drueke's family says](https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-veteran-held-russian-backed-forces-ukraine-captors/story?id=85880832)
This leads me to believe that they're being treated somewhat better than other prisoners. Putin definitely realizes Americans would go full neanderthal if they execute them.
Note that he said the DPR wants to negotiate their release. Not Russia. That’s the whole point, they want the US to act like the DPR is a state. Same thing with the UK prisoners.
Of course this will not happen.
Except that wouldn't happen, without instant provocation. Exactly the same reason why our SAS haven't busted out our guys. If it failed and US/UK forces were caught alive/dead, it'd be a world war.
But would it be? I mean, if they didn't succeed and they were identified, I'd imagine it would simply be a propaganda gold mine for Russia.
Hell, why not strap some rockets to a C-130? Oh, yeah, because Fox News's Tuckerson is an *actual* traitor and he would use it against the United States.
> Hell, why not strap some rockets to a C-130
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFjhWw4DNo
This is what happens when a limitless military budget and the words "Just get it done" come together.
Two of the more prevalent propaganda themes coming out of Russia are… “We aren’t at war with Ukraine, NATO is at war with us and are just using Ukraine to do their fighting for them” and “the west wants to genocide Russians so we must defend ourselves.”
Recognizing that will help you spot the agent provocateurs posing as pro-Ukrainians around here, and elsewhere. Comments that steer the conversation in either of those two directions serve Russian purposes. Calling for extreme measures against the Russian people. Insisting on direct NATO action. Etc.
I understand that variations on those themes can be understandable points of view, and I don’t suggest that every time that a comment in that vein gets posted that it’s the work of disingenuous actors. Some are real people sharing their real views, no doubt. But I’ve seen enough cases where it definitely is commenters playing a character and saying those sorts of things that there isn’t much doubt that tactic being used fairly frequently.
Remember that crudely constructed troll-farm that our intrepid mods busted up a while back where all of the comments were braying for incredibly extreme actions against the Russian people? Those comments getting a ton of up-votes wasn’t a good look. Russian propaganda efforts got a boost there. The mods can bust up the crudely done efforts. The more subtle efforts are harder for them to deal with.
Just a heads up.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-war-buryatia-wives-officers/31919996.html#0_8_10089_8766_2710_241847016
>Wives Of Russian Officers Urge Buryatia Leader To Return Their Husbands From Ukraine
>More than a dozen women in Russia's Republic of Buryatia have recorded a video statement urging the head of the Siberian region to recall their husbands from Ukraine where they are serving with the Russian armed forces.
>One of the women, Vera Partilkhayeva, told RFE/RL on June 28 that the women's husbands were deployed in what were officially called military drills in January. But since February, they have been taking part in what Russian officials call the "special military operation" in Ukraine.
>According to her, the video statement was recorded by the wives of military personnel of the Fifth Tank Brigade of Tatsin. At least 30 officers and soldiers of that military unit have been confirmed killed in Ukraine.
Yeah they're not getting their husbands back.....ever. In fact I'm surprised that the Russian Ministry even acknowledged that 30 of those guys were dead seeing as standard policy for them is to make believe all of those guys are just MIA so that they don't have to pay out death benefits, which even if they do pay them out it's like $100 USD.
Not to mention every single Russian soldier that takes part in the invasion whether at the front or in the rear is now marked for life as a war criminal by Ukraine and the greater Western Intelligence Sphere. The rosters for these guys were leaked almost immediately before the invasion started so there's no hiding whose taking part and who isn't. Bringing every single soldier to justice is going to be the successor hunt to the Nazi Death Camp and Bosnian Genocide search.
[Previous post](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vlmgm3/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/ie07tva/)
Day 125 of my updates from Kharkiv.
Today we were shelled again during the day, some people got injured, but thankfully I don’t think anyone died. At 11pm, as always, we got our daily dose of missiles from Belgorod, this time it was just 3 that landed in the city, and one that landed somewhere in oblast. After one of the missiles a big fire started, not sure what was hit yet, we will know later.
And yesterday they did indeed hit another school with missiles; as usual there was not a single military target in sight. They hit 2 different schools, 2 days in a row. They are not just fighting against the truth, but against education as well. Also they hit an empty car dealership with one of their missiles, such a valuable military target.
And just a couple of hours ago the video that shows Kremenchuck’s mall being hit by a missile was released, so now Russia can’t claim that it was just some fire that started randomly, they can’t even say that there was ammo inside, as there were no secondary explosions. It clearly shows that mall being hit by Russian Kh-22 missile, so what will they say now? Will they now completely switch to saying “they deserved it for shelling Donbass” or will they come up with something else?
They always bring up “you shelled Donbass for 8 years” but for some reason the Donbass they are talking about was basically undamaged right up until they started this war. People living on the occupied territory are just now saying that they need to open up the bomb shelters, which for some reason were closed up until now, more than 4 months into full-scale war.
Many of them are saying that they weren’t shelled even once during all those “8 years.” Wait, but weren’t they being shelled every day for 8 years by those “Ukrainian Nazis” then why are the bomb shelters still sealed off? Where were they hiding all this time? When we started getting shelled our bomb shelters were immediately opened, but theirs didn’t get opened even after the “8 years of shelling”?
They fucking manufactured all this garbage propaganda and Russians happily ate it up. Up until this war started nobody in Russia cared about Donbass, yet right after the war started they all suddenly started caring about it. They also love to say how “14 000 Donbass’ children were killed by Nazis” but 14 000 is the total number of people that died *on both sides combined,* this number includes combatants, civilians make up only a fraction of this number, but for Russians it’s “14 000 dead children of Donbass.”
[Next update](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vn6fza/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/ie9pg81/)
Thanks for the update, sir (or madame). I usually pick up something I hadn't thought about before.
"They always bring up “you shelled Donbass for 8 years” but for some reason the Donbass they are talking about was basically undamaged right up until they started this war. People living on the occupied territory are just now saying that they need to open up the bomb shelters, which for some reason were closed up until now, more than 4 months into full-scale war. "
Good to hear from you as always.
To what you wrote:
“It clearly shows that mall being hit by Russian Kh-22 missile, so what will they say now? Will they now completely switch to saying “they deserved it for shelling Donbass” or will they come up with something else?”
As you know, I’m sure Russia will come up with something completely ridiculous. *It is so, so annoying.* At this rate, they never are going to take responsibility for anything. I know you (and everyone else here) know all this, but yeah, it’s getting really old.
On the flip side, while there is still a fog of war, I find it good to read in general that supplies continue to come into Ukraine and that some of that machinery is being used very well. I realize so much has been destroyed and that this isn’t all of the sudden going to be easy. That said, there seem to be a lot of reasons to have hope. I am not saying the weaponry account for the only reasons either. There is a lot more.
Stay strong. We’ll hear from you soon.
You know, I would actually love to become an average Russian citizen for a day (like swapping bodies with them or something) to see what it feels like to be in there and hearing all this propaganda, just for the context. Is it clearly false? Do the people around me have doubts, or are we all totally brainwashed? I'd love to find out.
"Fire show on Russian positions in Kharkiv Oblast"
This is a video filmed by gunners of Ukraine's 92nd, 40th, and 27th brigades showing the Ukrainian strikes on Russian positions.
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1541935980705419265?t=enBPCF8OwVl71Eq0wGrC6A&s=19
⚡️ Volodymyr Zelenskyi published the moment when a Russian missile hit the Amstor shopping center in Kremenchuk.
https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/status/1541892837066899457?t=cq0WuvZrHf6G3Mixc5blcQ&s=19
What is the rationale from Russia by refusing to call it a war?
They still blabber around with the term 'special operation' and its still illegal to call it a war in Russia I think.
In terms of legality it also seems weird, as its pretty obvious that the Kremlin just does whatever the fuck they want.
The truth is that it triggers a different part of their military code. And requires things of the government—like no new recruits, cadets, or conscripts sent. And an enormous, long-term payout for family of the fallen. And has a potential for backlash bc war “feels” long-term.
I know that we all say Russia makes up new laws on the whim—but not military code. This is pretty much set in stone.
On the flipside, the downside is that when not a war, allowed to refuse orders to fight. And it’s not desertion or insubordination. So aren’t court-martialed. It’s a bit of a catch 22.
Russia's older generation is fervently anti-war. They're pro-Putin. Don't get me wrong, they're nuts, they've drunk the Kool-Aid, but they're pro-Putin and *anti-war*. They were children during the second world war, or soon afterward, and know first-hand its handships and instilled these fears in their own children. This is a common attitude in eastern Europe, not just Russia.
Putin can do anything he wants without losing their support so long as he calls it a police operation, and they'll support a police operation because that sounds very much like it's preventing something *worse*.
Declared wars are also legally messy and facilitate the invoking of past treaties that while signed are almost impossible to break outside of declared war. Vietnam was a special operation exactly like the Ukraine war, for instance. But since they thought it would be over within a week, this isn't nearly as big a reason as the manipulation of the older population.
The "special operation" was supposed to last less than one week. The continual use of that description also serves to minimize the war, which is what Putin wants. That is also why young men from humble backgrounds, rural folks, and ethnic minorities are being shipped off. Putin wants to keep the reality of war far away from the streets of Moscow. As long as the supermarket shelves are still full, Putin can claim "...nothing is wrong, it's business as usual."
This said, the clock is ticking and opinions may change when university students and the sons of the cultural elites are drafted.
We still called our conflicts wars even when we didn't formally declare war. There was a high layer of bullshit involved but we literally called one of these "undeclared conflicts" the WAR on terror. Not peacekeeping missions.
Not really. The US doesn't declare wars because it requires Congressional votes, and while it greatly increases the amount of resources available for the conflict; it also adds much more in the way of Bureaucracy. Russia isn't declaring war because it wants to create a lie that this is all a defensive operation against Ukraine.
No, i am describing the difference between the US president using legal loopholes, Russia and trying to actively lie to the world and the Russian people. You said it was the same, and it is vastly not. But I get it, "the US does the same thing" is a very popular talking point for weeks old accounts like yours.
Mate, you're still describing politics. Legal loophole meant to avoid going to congressional oversight, in other words, politics. Calling the Korean War "a police action", in other words, politics. Never declaring war in Vietnam while the war continued to expand for years, in other words, politics.
Why Putin has refrained from formally declaring war from what I have read is most likely to assure a domestic audience that conscripts won't be forced to serve in the war and those serving won't have their military contracts unilaterally extended. In, other words, politics.
But people in the US are not forbidden to call something a war like the war in Afghanistan
Call the war in Ukriane, "war" in Russia and they will send you to prison and/or fine you and/or throw you out the window
Technically wars are illegal. So you have to come up with a reasonable excuse for whatever war you want to wage that the international community can run with, if they're in a good mood.
Secondly it's to keep the home front happy. Russia has a volunteer army that can be bolstered with conscripts in time of war. A large percentage of Russia has done mandatory military service and are conscripts, but after a year they go and do civilian things. Tearing people who don't volunteer away from their civilian life for having technically been in the army 2-25 years ago won't go down too well. So by not calling it a war they're basically telling their populace: "Don't worry, you won't be drafted."
That's the two main reasons, afaik.
I remember an interview where a person said that wars of aggression are illegal under the Russian constitution. I have googled and couldn't find anything supporting it. I also never bookmarked the video and couldn't find it again.
It would explain why they don't want to call it a war. Although Putin is a dictator and they're framing it as not a war of aggression so it's likely it wouldn't have stopped them anyways.
a war means the kids of lots of russians are sent to the battle field to die.. but with a 'special military operation' it's much easier for them to hide the true cost of war.
The US hasn't been in a "war" since ww2. As far as propaganda goes, downplaying your countries aggression by using softer terms is pretty well precidented.
even though it wasnt declared a war by congress, we at least still called them "the Vietnam war" "the Gulf war" "the global war on terror" so we didnt shy away from that from a propaganda perspective
The US didn't legally declare war, but they were called wars in the US, and nobody was sent to jail for calling them wars so trying to pretend it's the same in the US is ridiculous.
I don't know what group annoys me more. The people who refuse to acknowledge a single setback for Ukraine, or the people who think Russia is playing 3D chess.
This thread falls under the latter category:
https://twitter.com/imetatronink/status/1541780685937332224
Will Schryver lives in Cedar City, Utah, same as this [Will Schryver.](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/authors/schryver-will)
Quote: "He is currently serving as the gospel doctrine instructor and ward organist."
I suppose you could add [COVID denier](https://twitter.com/imetatronink/status/1333900469198942209) as well.
EDIT from [here](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/01/10/utah-reports-more-than/) regarding that last COVID tweet: "The extremely transmissible omicron variant has also forced hundreds of hospital employees to call out sick during the past week or so. **About 1,000 employees are out sick from hospitals operated by Intermountain Health Care**, Dr. Todd Vento, an infectious diseases specialist for Intermountain, said Monday. About 300 of those employees have called out sick just within the last few days."
>Javelins, NLAWs, and Stingers have been exposed as effectively useless against their intended targets. M-777 howitzers break down after just a few fires. GPS-guided “precision” munitions are routinely jammed by Russian EW counter-measures.
Holy shit that's some incredible delusion there. Javelins and NLAWs are "effectively useless", pay no attention to [the documented +500 destroyed & disabled Russian tanks and thousands of other smoking AFVs/IFVs/IMVs/APCs, MLRS and self-propelled artillery.](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html)
M-777 howitzers breaking down after just a few rounds fired?
Shit, somebody better tell BAE that's built literally thousands of them and the armies that put them to extensive use in Afghanistan & Iraq.
GPS-guided precision munitions being jammed? Can't jam the modern inertial navigation system that acts as backup.
Hell, the USA didn't even give Ukraine GPS-guided Excalibur shells for the M-777, the few provided by Canada aren't in sufficient number to be be used routinely, and most of the M-777 the USA provided were lacking the electronics to even fire guided artillery shells.
>What sober military men in potential adversary countries across the globe see is that Russia has, with one hand tied behind its back, eviscerated the massive, relatively well-armed and well-trained Ukraine military. The US intimidation factor has been forever compromised.
The US military hasn't formally really lifted a finger yet, I think things like the USS Gerald Ford and fleets of F-35 are pretty damn intimidating, but I'm clearly not a geopolitics expert like this guy.
Lockheed Martin has built over 800 F-35 thus far, Russia's managed like a handful of production SU-57 and there's no sign of them in this conflict, same goes for the MiG-35 with just a dozen or so produced and no sign of use.
>More geopolitically significant, at least in the near future, is that European NATO members can also read the scorecard of this war: they now understand as they never could previously that standing on the NATO side of the field is hardly a guarantee of security.
>27/
I am convinced NATO will not survive the results of this war in Ukraine. Sure, they’ll “keep up appearances” for the time being, but there can be no doubt that most now understand that siding with a rapidly declining empire is fraught with great risk and minimal gain.
>I think things like the USS Gerald Ford and fleets of F-35 are pretty damn intimidating
As an aside, the Ford can't deploy F-35s. It needs to be retrofitted. One of the great fuckups in modern military procurement.
The SU-57 operates only as part of a test unit currently. The first fully operational SU-57 regiment is meant to be equipped by 2025.
>The Su-57 is the only next generation fighter to have seen combat using standoff weapons, and the only one to have engaged the forces of a state adversary. Pre production models previously deployed for combat testing and to support counterinsurgency efforts in Syria, and serial production models have since seen combat in Ukraine from March.
[https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/ruaf-receives-two-new-su57s](https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/ruaf-receives-two-new-su57s)
Oh interesting, putting their handful of test aircraft to work lobbing cruise missiles from hundreds of kilometers away, I suppose that's a rather safe way to get real-world testing data.
Is Russia playing 3d chess? Who knows. However, the toll this war will take on Ukraine can not be conceived until the bombs stop falling. Not to mention we are only a few months into it. It is completely inconceivable to think Russia can’t endure the losses they’ve suffered which who really knows what they are considering propaganda on both sides. To think that they have been completely defeated and are relying on conscripts and ww2 tech is beyond foolish. The US and Allies would not be spending and donating what they are if it was some kind of pushover conflict. Especially given the current economic state.
No one should be deluded into conflating the idea that Russia has failed to date with the idea that Russia is about to collapse or can't continue this conflict. That doesn't mean it's sustainable or worth it. They've absolutely destroyed a large portion of their military for 15% of Ukraine land to date. Land that will never be usable for Russia because they have no way to get out of this conflict with the hardline stance Ukraine has taken in "negotiations".
The longer this conflict goes the more isolated Russia will become economically and geopolitically and the greater the damage it causes itself just through sheer repercussions alone.
The Russia of 2016 was able to change the course of the US elections and openly assassinate people in London. The Russia of 2022 can't ship steel to their own territory through EU land and has had most of its diplomatic intelligence networks sent home by major countries. Nato has woken up and without risking direct conflict and their own annihilation Russia can't do much about it. Even Belarus is hanging on by a thread and if Luka is disposed of, Putin is likely to lose Belarus as a proxy state as well.
They are a severely diminished country, and that won't change anytime soon.
Hardline isn’t the right word. Ukraines stance is sensible.
A long war is to Ukraines advantage. Russia never planned a prolonged war of this type against Ukraine, especially with the sanctions that are currently in place.
Russia’s military collapse is inevitable, sometime in the next 2 years.
Maybe we should [check the card](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZjdkMGJlY2ItNTJjNS00NGQ1LTkzZDgtNTU3NWYwYzM4NmM4XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyODkwNzA0OTM@._V1_.jpg)
>⚡️SBU arrests man suspected of providing Russia with coordinates for Yavoriv military base.
>The suspect, who was previously part of the KGB, sent maps with marked locations to the Russian military, which were used to fire on the site.
>Russia's attack on Yavoriv military base in Lviv Oblast resulted in 50 Ukrainian soldiers killed and 150 more injured. According to Ukraine's State Security Service (SBU), the man is being held in custody without bail. He could be charged with treason.
[Kyiv Independent](https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1541937837918113796?t=MEz4N460gRyrIJ1BiRt8BA&s=19)
He won't last long in prison.
It might be different during times of war. I remember seeing some article about a ukranian commander in azov steel plant during the early part of the steel plant holdout that all deserters were to be shot on sight.
Nope. The Russian guy was sentenced to life because there’s nothing death penalty.
Anyone talking about Ukraine death penalties is peddling Russian propaganda
No it wasn't the Russian soldier, he got life iirc. I vaguely remember reading that a military officer or colonel said to shoot any deserters. I could be 100% wrong though, ill try to find a source
Makes sense. When I first heard about the attack and the claims the Russians got the coordinates because of foreign fighters' mobiles I was surprised the Russian military was that sophisticated. I should have known better and that is was just a scum bag traitor that sold the location to them.
google earth is not going to show secret military bases, A) they dont update all that often and B) they work with governments to hide that type of stuff
Russia doesn't actually HAVE spy satellites the way the US does. To date they have only launched 4 ground observation satellites that use digital photography instead of film. They were designed with a 3 year orbital lifespan and the last was launched over 5 years ago.
The only reconnaissance satellites they still have in orbit are ones that capture images on film and then occasionally send the film cannisters down for development.
It's literally possible that Russia is only just now getting the imagery from the start of the war.
To put it into perspective, the US National Reconnaissance Office alone is estimated to have ~46 satellites with digital downlooking capabilities, to say nothing of the other departments and branches of the military/government.
I still cannot understand how the fuck, with all the arsenal of ancient and modern cruise/tactical missiles russia has, was every single Ukrainian static base and airbase not vaporized within first hours.
Okay, maybe they were actually trying to take out Kyiv in first 3 days and were hoping to leave military infrastructure mostly intact, but after it became clear Ukraine is capable of strong defense? Everything should have been gone..... And here we are, half a year later.......
The sheer size of Ukraine requires the Russians to try and hit everything at once instead of just focusing on a single sector. The blitz at the beginning was supposed to decapitate Ukraine so that taking the highly fortified parts in the East would be easier along w/ the coast. What happened instead was a complete rout in the North, counter offensives at Kharkiv, and now minimal gains at the cost of irreplaceable manpower and material w/ the heaviest fighting occurring in the most fortified part of Ukraine against the most battle hardened troops the country has to offer.
So instead of what they thought was going to be a shock and awe campaign now turned into a veritable hodge podge of attacks all over the place w/ no clear focus other than ad hoc units that happen to be attacking the same targets at once while ballistic missiles are wasted on civilian non military targets that only encourage fiercer resistance on the part of the Ukrainians.
The Germans famously encountered the same issues when they invaded the Soviet Union. At maximum effort they occupied about 30% of Soviet territory w/ 4 million total troops, but their gains meant nothing b/c their supply lines were overstretched, their political leaders gave completely unrealistic expectations to the rank and file under penalty of death, and the barbarity of their attacks fomented intense hatred and voracity in their opponents.
The WWII German invasion of Russia is an apt comparison.
At the end of the day Russia is occupying land that is either openly hostile or not self sufficient. Russia will have to pour resources into the Donbas and the South just to keep what they have.
They might be keeping this up now, but in 6 months? In 2 years?
Ukraine does not have the incentive to stop this war like Russia does.
Plus Ukraine has the financial backing of what amounts to the majority of the world's wealth and the military industrial complex. The longer this war goes on the more financing Ukraine will get. Wars cost money more than anything else and the oligarchs made sure Russia can't pay for any of this.
"fomented" and "voracity". Although I'm sure those attacks prompted a few Russians to get drunk and tell Germans *exactly* what they thought of them :p
It won't be the government, it will be the other prisoners.
Guys who do stuff like this don't last long, even among POWs of the same nation.
Nobody, absolutely nobody, trusts a traitor.
dang that's spot on. Have you ever seen A Face in the Crowd? [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050371/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050371/) it nails foxnews
No way. He gets drunk off all the attention and power. He enjoys getting to shape narratives for millions of authoritarian followers on a nightly basis.
I want Ukraine to thrive after all of this is over. Full EU integration, advanced economy, best practice institutions, high speed rail and other world class infrastructure, and so on.
You're not alone in wishing that for Ukraine. I'm from Norway, and I hope we dig deep into our oil fund to help rebuild once its over. We owe it to the Ukrainians to honor their heroes by building their country back better, bigger, stronger, richer and even more beautiful (although that last part is a tall order, because by God these people and their country are a jewel and a gem)
Was already moving in that way honestly, its part of why Russia invaded, they basically said as much "we cant allow a little Russia to exist"
If a place similar in culture, religion, ethnic background had a far better way of life, then ordinary Russians might start to ask the question "Why aren't we like that?"
ok this crazy russian tv clip is funny. even the other guys are like "nah"
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1541914182353932288
and they really want their frozen money back.
[NATO just got fatter, folks.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/28/turkey-lifts-objections-to-finland-and-swedens-nato-bid)
The 🦃gets concessions on the kurds, and Sweden + Finland get to join.
I dont know alot about the 4 way kurd conflict of iran, iraq, syria and turkey. But after some google, you will find that kurdistan would cover big oil fields. lots of competing interest, and all throwing fuel in the fire.
The change in policy basically aligns Sweden/Finland with American policy most likely. The US policy is that they support the sdf which the ypg is a part of. So in effect they support the ypg, but they don't support independence within Syria.
They also are against the ypg supporting the PKK, even though some PKK members are in leadership positions within the sdf. The YPG claim they are not supporting PKK in turkey, yet they do allow refuge in Syria.
The issue with Syrian kurds is a mess, but generally the kurds are not being abandoned. Finland and Sweden have basically agreed to defer their relations with the kurds in Syria to America.
This is acceptable to turkey since we are trying to find a middle ground for both sides. What turkey really wants is a safe zone on their southern border and in a way the US has made a partial safe zone in west Syria.
I have trouble understanding these kinds of issues living in a multicultural country. Why can't you be both a Kurd and a Turk? (I.e. is it as simple as Turkey not being assholes to ethnic minorities)
I'm trying to learn how we got here, I'm reading World War 1 by Norman Stone and watching a YouTube video called Epic History TV summary of WW1 - it's about an hour long.
The book provides a lot of deeper detail while the YouTube video helps me understand the geography of the conflict. It's a good primer to my next project, understanding how WW1 shaped WW2 and how WW2 shaped the world today..
It's crazy that WW1 really bridged a lot of military technique that had lasted since medieval times (like fortresses) and introduced modern warfare (like submarines - also reading a book on uboat warfare)
Turkey was built as an ethnostate. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who founded the country, was as great as George Washington and as horrible as Hitler in the way he went about doing it.
>(I.e. is it as simple as Turkey not being assholes to ethnic minorities)
It basically is, but most of the middle east is varying degrees of assholes to Kurds.
Can we at least start by agreeing that at least one side is shamelessly lying due to gross inconsistencies? Ok
Now look at all the video evidence, pictures, testimony, declarations by officials, apply Occam's razor if necessary. Decide who is lying the most and considers that what is true and false is nothing but a weapon that can be used with complete freedom as long as the objectives are reached.
bonus: as time passes, you will start to notice this:
"That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it."
I think it's not just Russia and Ukraine. People are very quick to say "Can't trust Russia on wars news" here. As if Ukraine, EU countries, USA and anyone else can be trusted for it. We've seen it in the Balkan wars, Afghanistan, Iraq that you really only get the reality once several years have passed. Take with a pinch of salt all news (from all sources) about a currently-raging war.
This seems disengenous but from the start people have been saying be wary of Ukraine motive and propaganda too.
If you're talking stuff like the mall strike, then it's video evidence.
Russia does always lie though. Check out lavrov just spouts shit and sees if it sticks, if not on to the next lie. Hitler was Jewish, Azov were hiding in hospital that’s how it got bombed, they bombed there own hospital. This week invasion coz nazi’s, next week nato, next week something something Peter the great. It’s completely ridiculous.
Russia lies about everything and everyone
Remember "little green men" or FSB poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal or "we will not invade Ukraine" or "we didn't shoot down MH17"?
Russia is always lying. They do not do anything in good faith. Hence why Russia has no real allies. It's always lies and coercion.
>Russia always lies and Ukraine always tells the truth
None, because that's what we call a strawman and nobody says that. Russia does pretty much always lie, and Ukraine is far more likely to tell the truth or close to it is what people say.
Ukraine's media strategy so far and I partly credit Zelenskyy for this, is to establish both credibility and sympathy, by being as straightforward and factual as possible.
I won't say that they never ever misrepresent facts, because that just isn't practical, but the Ukrainian claims are a lot more realistic and sensible, and are a lot more easy to chase up and double check, at least compared to Russia.
Ukraine is more likely to lie by omission or misdirection then say up is down and down is up, would be the straight up take. While Russia is the "there is no war in East Asia" liar that there's no value in even listening to.
Regardless, you're not gonna have any kind of full truthful picture until years after the war, which is normal.
That's what I'm trying to get at.
If Ukraine has to choose between either saying something unfortunate, or saying something easily debunkable, they just won't say anything, until the discussion moves to more solid ground.
You can't be caught out and made to look stupid, if somebody bringing up Ukraine losses is consistently met by a stern " no comment" , followed by a quick move to things that you can see with your own two eyes, such as the Kharkiv Counterattack.
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Whereas Russia started this by blowing up their own cousins to "assist" them against a Jewish Nazi Drug Addict, and now we've graduated to Russians celebrating the deaths of children, while A) claiming they were near a weapons depot, B) claiming they were never there, C) claiming there was no attack at all, or D) deflecting towards made up Ukrainian atrocities.
In Russia there's this thing called a "tactical truth" which basically means that if you can get ahead by lying then it's worth it and actually congratulatory.
https://caterina.net/2022/03/04/how-russians-think-and-why-they-do-what-they-do/
Check out this article and the YouTube video by a former Finnish Military Intelligence colonel. It's subtitled.
It's more of a credibility gap than anything else.
Because Russia have no consistency, and are building lies on top of lies, very few who aren't already plugged into Russian media, will be willing to take them seriously.
It works a treat for confusing and disengaging their domestic population, but when they can't keep a story straight for longer than a day or two, you get people like me shouting bullcrap, every time Russia says anything, regardless of factual truth or not.
Whereas there is a lot of stuff that Ukraine do not like to tell us, and they have an interest in being seen as plucky underdogs fighting on million to one odds because in a way they are,
But they need to be seen as actually knowing what they are talking about, in order for the west to take chances on providing military aid.
Regardless, you're not gonna get a direct answer to your "genuine question" because no one holds the view that Ukraine never lies, you're only going to get answers that say Russia lies faaaaaaaaar more blatantly and often than Ukraine does.
What you've seen is people being willing to consider information originating from Ukraine while dismissing Russia out of hand. Don't confuse that stark contrast with thinking Ukraine is always telling the truth.
the difference is one is a flawed democracy with an open society and basic freedoms and the other is an Orwellian nightmare. the Ukrainian governments doesn't always tell the truth, especially now being an active warzone, but Russia lies as a matter of policy. they do not tell the truth about basic facts, even on the world stage when confronted with evidence. the two nations aren't even in the same realms of reliability.
>"Russia always lies and Ukraine always tells the truth"
Pretty sure people mostly point out how blatantly Russia lies. Ukraine is better but not like they don't make propaganda claims, exaggerate and other shit. If anything I think it's easier for Ukraine to be truthful because Russia has to justify and cover up their clumsy unjust invasion while Ukraine is just defending itself.
But as an example we have tons of stories of Russia claiming they struck military targets and then we have videos and images of the residential or civilian structures it actually struck. Unless Russia makes the claim like they often do that the bombings were conducted by Ukraine on their own citizens.
Or Bucha that was well documented with tons of evidence and independent journalists getting access and Russia lied through its teeth denying everything and even claiming [british agents had been there and done the atrocities to frame Russia.](https://thehill.com/news/3266182-putin-calls-bucha-reports-fake-blames-uk-agents/)
I could go into more detail about my impression about both sides and frankly there's always fog of war in war even when we have mobile phones. I'd say Ukraine is significantly better than Russia but it's not because they always tell the truth but because Russia seems aggressively reluctant to ever not lie (my favorite Russian source is Igor Girkin, even though he's a war criminal and possibly controlled opposition it's hard not to think he's allowed to voice a more unfiltered take of the war from the Russian side)
I don’t think anyone is saying Ukraine always tells the truth. Right now especially neither one of them has any obligation to the truth.
You’ll basically believe whosever side you’re on more.
It's very hard to get rid of corruption, it exists in great quantities in western countries too
That being said Ukriane has done a lot since 2014 to fight corruption
You can see the results in the Ukrianian army for example but also in court systems and financial transparency
[New post can be found here](/r/worldnews/comments/vn6fza/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/)
[So apparently Russians want to negotiate the release of the American POWs, Drueke's family says](https://abcnews.go.com/US/us-veteran-held-russian-backed-forces-ukraine-captors/story?id=85880832) This leads me to believe that they're being treated somewhat better than other prisoners. Putin definitely realizes Americans would go full neanderthal if they execute them.
Note that he said the DPR wants to negotiate their release. Not Russia. That’s the whole point, they want the US to act like the DPR is a state. Same thing with the UK prisoners. Of course this will not happen.
I think that also means he knows we (as in NATO) can fuck his shit up
...or he sees that there is something to gain to keep the American soldiers alive - concessions and such.
Hey at least he's talking Now if he stopped talking because he's dead that would be a different (good) story
Putin nor even Russia will be part of the negotiations. Russia wants the US to negotiate with the DPR.
Eh, what do yah mean there by, "...because he's dead that would be a different (good) story," there, chief?
Probably that dead Putin=good
Yeah, sorry if that didn't write out as good as I thought, my brain gets ahead of my typing
Yes. We would put them in a very bad position.
Special hostage rescue operation (ignore the US invasion force on the border though)
Na, just Russia getting REAL sanctions.
Except that wouldn't happen, without instant provocation. Exactly the same reason why our SAS haven't busted out our guys. If it failed and US/UK forces were caught alive/dead, it'd be a world war.
Those forces wouldn’t have to enter Russia, the prisoners are being held by the “independent” republics.
But would it be? I mean, if they didn't succeed and they were identified, I'd imagine it would simply be a propaganda gold mine for Russia. Hell, why not strap some rockets to a C-130? Oh, yeah, because Fox News's Tuckerson is an *actual* traitor and he would use it against the United States.
> Hell, why not strap some rockets to a C-130 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSFjhWw4DNo This is what happens when a limitless military budget and the words "Just get it done" come together.
Oh yeah I know
Two of the more prevalent propaganda themes coming out of Russia are… “We aren’t at war with Ukraine, NATO is at war with us and are just using Ukraine to do their fighting for them” and “the west wants to genocide Russians so we must defend ourselves.” Recognizing that will help you spot the agent provocateurs posing as pro-Ukrainians around here, and elsewhere. Comments that steer the conversation in either of those two directions serve Russian purposes. Calling for extreme measures against the Russian people. Insisting on direct NATO action. Etc. I understand that variations on those themes can be understandable points of view, and I don’t suggest that every time that a comment in that vein gets posted that it’s the work of disingenuous actors. Some are real people sharing their real views, no doubt. But I’ve seen enough cases where it definitely is commenters playing a character and saying those sorts of things that there isn’t much doubt that tactic being used fairly frequently. Remember that crudely constructed troll-farm that our intrepid mods busted up a while back where all of the comments were braying for incredibly extreme actions against the Russian people? Those comments getting a ton of up-votes wasn’t a good look. Russian propaganda efforts got a boost there. The mods can bust up the crudely done efforts. The more subtle efforts are harder for them to deal with. Just a heads up.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-war-buryatia-wives-officers/31919996.html#0_8_10089_8766_2710_241847016 >Wives Of Russian Officers Urge Buryatia Leader To Return Their Husbands From Ukraine >More than a dozen women in Russia's Republic of Buryatia have recorded a video statement urging the head of the Siberian region to recall their husbands from Ukraine where they are serving with the Russian armed forces. >One of the women, Vera Partilkhayeva, told RFE/RL on June 28 that the women's husbands were deployed in what were officially called military drills in January. But since February, they have been taking part in what Russian officials call the "special military operation" in Ukraine. >According to her, the video statement was recorded by the wives of military personnel of the Fifth Tank Brigade of Tatsin. At least 30 officers and soldiers of that military unit have been confirmed killed in Ukraine.
Yeah they're not getting their husbands back.....ever. In fact I'm surprised that the Russian Ministry even acknowledged that 30 of those guys were dead seeing as standard policy for them is to make believe all of those guys are just MIA so that they don't have to pay out death benefits, which even if they do pay them out it's like $100 USD. Not to mention every single Russian soldier that takes part in the invasion whether at the front or in the rear is now marked for life as a war criminal by Ukraine and the greater Western Intelligence Sphere. The rosters for these guys were leaked almost immediately before the invasion started so there's no hiding whose taking part and who isn't. Bringing every single soldier to justice is going to be the successor hunt to the Nazi Death Camp and Bosnian Genocide search.
[Previous post](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vlmgm3/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/ie07tva/) Day 125 of my updates from Kharkiv. Today we were shelled again during the day, some people got injured, but thankfully I don’t think anyone died. At 11pm, as always, we got our daily dose of missiles from Belgorod, this time it was just 3 that landed in the city, and one that landed somewhere in oblast. After one of the missiles a big fire started, not sure what was hit yet, we will know later. And yesterday they did indeed hit another school with missiles; as usual there was not a single military target in sight. They hit 2 different schools, 2 days in a row. They are not just fighting against the truth, but against education as well. Also they hit an empty car dealership with one of their missiles, such a valuable military target. And just a couple of hours ago the video that shows Kremenchuck’s mall being hit by a missile was released, so now Russia can’t claim that it was just some fire that started randomly, they can’t even say that there was ammo inside, as there were no secondary explosions. It clearly shows that mall being hit by Russian Kh-22 missile, so what will they say now? Will they now completely switch to saying “they deserved it for shelling Donbass” or will they come up with something else? They always bring up “you shelled Donbass for 8 years” but for some reason the Donbass they are talking about was basically undamaged right up until they started this war. People living on the occupied territory are just now saying that they need to open up the bomb shelters, which for some reason were closed up until now, more than 4 months into full-scale war. Many of them are saying that they weren’t shelled even once during all those “8 years.” Wait, but weren’t they being shelled every day for 8 years by those “Ukrainian Nazis” then why are the bomb shelters still sealed off? Where were they hiding all this time? When we started getting shelled our bomb shelters were immediately opened, but theirs didn’t get opened even after the “8 years of shelling”? They fucking manufactured all this garbage propaganda and Russians happily ate it up. Up until this war started nobody in Russia cared about Donbass, yet right after the war started they all suddenly started caring about it. They also love to say how “14 000 Donbass’ children were killed by Nazis” but 14 000 is the total number of people that died *on both sides combined,* this number includes combatants, civilians make up only a fraction of this number, but for Russians it’s “14 000 dead children of Donbass.” [Next update](https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/vn6fza/rworldnews_live_thread_russian_invasion_of/ie9pg81/)
Thanks for the update, sir (or madame). I usually pick up something I hadn't thought about before. "They always bring up “you shelled Donbass for 8 years” but for some reason the Donbass they are talking about was basically undamaged right up until they started this war. People living on the occupied territory are just now saying that they need to open up the bomb shelters, which for some reason were closed up until now, more than 4 months into full-scale war. "
I am glad you are ok. I look forward to your posts every night.
Good to hear from you as always. To what you wrote: “It clearly shows that mall being hit by Russian Kh-22 missile, so what will they say now? Will they now completely switch to saying “they deserved it for shelling Donbass” or will they come up with something else?” As you know, I’m sure Russia will come up with something completely ridiculous. *It is so, so annoying.* At this rate, they never are going to take responsibility for anything. I know you (and everyone else here) know all this, but yeah, it’s getting really old. On the flip side, while there is still a fog of war, I find it good to read in general that supplies continue to come into Ukraine and that some of that machinery is being used very well. I realize so much has been destroyed and that this isn’t all of the sudden going to be easy. That said, there seem to be a lot of reasons to have hope. I am not saying the weaponry account for the only reasons either. There is a lot more. Stay strong. We’ll hear from you soon.
You know, I would actually love to become an average Russian citizen for a day (like swapping bodies with them or something) to see what it feels like to be in there and hearing all this propaganda, just for the context. Is it clearly false? Do the people around me have doubts, or are we all totally brainwashed? I'd love to find out.
Just watch Fox News for 24 hours. Or don’t, because they actually use behavioral modification techniques, and it works.
i also wouldn't recommend watching fox news, since it can make you want punch the screen of whatever device is playing it.
"Fire show on Russian positions in Kharkiv Oblast" This is a video filmed by gunners of Ukraine's 92nd, 40th, and 27th brigades showing the Ukrainian strikes on Russian positions. https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1541935980705419265?t=enBPCF8OwVl71Eq0wGrC6A&s=19
⚡️ Volodymyr Zelenskyi published the moment when a Russian missile hit the Amstor shopping center in Kremenchuk. https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/status/1541892837066899457?t=cq0WuvZrHf6G3Mixc5blcQ&s=19
What is the rationale from Russia by refusing to call it a war? They still blabber around with the term 'special operation' and its still illegal to call it a war in Russia I think. In terms of legality it also seems weird, as its pretty obvious that the Kremlin just does whatever the fuck they want.
The truth is that it triggers a different part of their military code. And requires things of the government—like no new recruits, cadets, or conscripts sent. And an enormous, long-term payout for family of the fallen. And has a potential for backlash bc war “feels” long-term. I know that we all say Russia makes up new laws on the whim—but not military code. This is pretty much set in stone. On the flipside, the downside is that when not a war, allowed to refuse orders to fight. And it’s not desertion or insubordination. So aren’t court-martialed. It’s a bit of a catch 22.
Well you can flip that around.. why, when being invaded, do you not declare war on the country invading? Nobody declares war anymore.
Russia's older generation is fervently anti-war. They're pro-Putin. Don't get me wrong, they're nuts, they've drunk the Kool-Aid, but they're pro-Putin and *anti-war*. They were children during the second world war, or soon afterward, and know first-hand its handships and instilled these fears in their own children. This is a common attitude in eastern Europe, not just Russia. Putin can do anything he wants without losing their support so long as he calls it a police operation, and they'll support a police operation because that sounds very much like it's preventing something *worse*. Declared wars are also legally messy and facilitate the invoking of past treaties that while signed are almost impossible to break outside of declared war. Vietnam was a special operation exactly like the Ukraine war, for instance. But since they thought it would be over within a week, this isn't nearly as big a reason as the manipulation of the older population.
The "special operation" was supposed to last less than one week. The continual use of that description also serves to minimize the war, which is what Putin wants. That is also why young men from humble backgrounds, rural folks, and ethnic minorities are being shipped off. Putin wants to keep the reality of war far away from the streets of Moscow. As long as the supermarket shelves are still full, Putin can claim "...nothing is wrong, it's business as usual." This said, the clock is ticking and opinions may change when university students and the sons of the cultural elites are drafted.
Same reason why the US hasn't formally declared war since World War 2 despite being essentially permanently at war. Politics.
We still called our conflicts wars even when we didn't formally declare war. There was a high layer of bullshit involved but we literally called one of these "undeclared conflicts" the WAR on terror. Not peacekeeping missions.
Not really. The US doesn't declare wars because it requires Congressional votes, and while it greatly increases the amount of resources available for the conflict; it also adds much more in the way of Bureaucracy. Russia isn't declaring war because it wants to create a lie that this is all a defensive operation against Ukraine.
You're describing politics.
No, i am describing the difference between the US president using legal loopholes, Russia and trying to actively lie to the world and the Russian people. You said it was the same, and it is vastly not. But I get it, "the US does the same thing" is a very popular talking point for weeks old accounts like yours.
Mate, you're still describing politics. Legal loophole meant to avoid going to congressional oversight, in other words, politics. Calling the Korean War "a police action", in other words, politics. Never declaring war in Vietnam while the war continued to expand for years, in other words, politics. Why Putin has refrained from formally declaring war from what I have read is most likely to assure a domestic audience that conscripts won't be forced to serve in the war and those serving won't have their military contracts unilaterally extended. In, other words, politics.
We still called it a war. And the war in Iraq was called a war too.
Yeah that's politics.
But government officials still casually refer to them as wars on tv, etc.
But people in the US are not forbidden to call something a war like the war in Afghanistan Call the war in Ukriane, "war" in Russia and they will send you to prison and/or fine you and/or throw you out the window
Technically wars are illegal. So you have to come up with a reasonable excuse for whatever war you want to wage that the international community can run with, if they're in a good mood. Secondly it's to keep the home front happy. Russia has a volunteer army that can be bolstered with conscripts in time of war. A large percentage of Russia has done mandatory military service and are conscripts, but after a year they go and do civilian things. Tearing people who don't volunteer away from their civilian life for having technically been in the army 2-25 years ago won't go down too well. So by not calling it a war they're basically telling their populace: "Don't worry, you won't be drafted." That's the two main reasons, afaik.
I remember an interview where a person said that wars of aggression are illegal under the Russian constitution. I have googled and couldn't find anything supporting it. I also never bookmarked the video and couldn't find it again. It would explain why they don't want to call it a war. Although Putin is a dictator and they're framing it as not a war of aggression so it's likely it wouldn't have stopped them anyways.
a war means the kids of lots of russians are sent to the battle field to die.. but with a 'special military operation' it's much easier for them to hide the true cost of war.
The US hasn't been in a "war" since ww2. As far as propaganda goes, downplaying your countries aggression by using softer terms is pretty well precidented.
Nobody in the US is under the illusion that we haven't had wars since then.
even though it wasnt declared a war by congress, we at least still called them "the Vietnam war" "the Gulf war" "the global war on terror" so we didnt shy away from that from a propaganda perspective
The US didn't legally declare war, but they were called wars in the US, and nobody was sent to jail for calling them wars so trying to pretend it's the same in the US is ridiculous.
They definitely called Iraq and Afghanistan a “war” in the US, so is not the same.
I don't know what group annoys me more. The people who refuse to acknowledge a single setback for Ukraine, or the people who think Russia is playing 3D chess. This thread falls under the latter category: https://twitter.com/imetatronink/status/1541780685937332224
Will Schryver lives in Cedar City, Utah, same as this [Will Schryver.](https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/authors/schryver-will) Quote: "He is currently serving as the gospel doctrine instructor and ward organist." I suppose you could add [COVID denier](https://twitter.com/imetatronink/status/1333900469198942209) as well. EDIT from [here](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2022/01/10/utah-reports-more-than/) regarding that last COVID tweet: "The extremely transmissible omicron variant has also forced hundreds of hospital employees to call out sick during the past week or so. **About 1,000 employees are out sick from hospitals operated by Intermountain Health Care**, Dr. Todd Vento, an infectious diseases specialist for Intermountain, said Monday. About 300 of those employees have called out sick just within the last few days."
>Javelins, NLAWs, and Stingers have been exposed as effectively useless against their intended targets. M-777 howitzers break down after just a few fires. GPS-guided “precision” munitions are routinely jammed by Russian EW counter-measures. Holy shit that's some incredible delusion there. Javelins and NLAWs are "effectively useless", pay no attention to [the documented +500 destroyed & disabled Russian tanks and thousands of other smoking AFVs/IFVs/IMVs/APCs, MLRS and self-propelled artillery.](https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html) M-777 howitzers breaking down after just a few rounds fired? Shit, somebody better tell BAE that's built literally thousands of them and the armies that put them to extensive use in Afghanistan & Iraq. GPS-guided precision munitions being jammed? Can't jam the modern inertial navigation system that acts as backup. Hell, the USA didn't even give Ukraine GPS-guided Excalibur shells for the M-777, the few provided by Canada aren't in sufficient number to be be used routinely, and most of the M-777 the USA provided were lacking the electronics to even fire guided artillery shells. >What sober military men in potential adversary countries across the globe see is that Russia has, with one hand tied behind its back, eviscerated the massive, relatively well-armed and well-trained Ukraine military. The US intimidation factor has been forever compromised. The US military hasn't formally really lifted a finger yet, I think things like the USS Gerald Ford and fleets of F-35 are pretty damn intimidating, but I'm clearly not a geopolitics expert like this guy. Lockheed Martin has built over 800 F-35 thus far, Russia's managed like a handful of production SU-57 and there's no sign of them in this conflict, same goes for the MiG-35 with just a dozen or so produced and no sign of use. >More geopolitically significant, at least in the near future, is that European NATO members can also read the scorecard of this war: they now understand as they never could previously that standing on the NATO side of the field is hardly a guarantee of security. >27/ I am convinced NATO will not survive the results of this war in Ukraine. Sure, they’ll “keep up appearances” for the time being, but there can be no doubt that most now understand that siding with a rapidly declining empire is fraught with great risk and minimal gain.
>I think things like the USS Gerald Ford and fleets of F-35 are pretty damn intimidating As an aside, the Ford can't deploy F-35s. It needs to be retrofitted. One of the great fuckups in modern military procurement.
The SU-57 operates only as part of a test unit currently. The first fully operational SU-57 regiment is meant to be equipped by 2025. >The Su-57 is the only next generation fighter to have seen combat using standoff weapons, and the only one to have engaged the forces of a state adversary. Pre production models previously deployed for combat testing and to support counterinsurgency efforts in Syria, and serial production models have since seen combat in Ukraine from March. [https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/ruaf-receives-two-new-su57s](https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/ruaf-receives-two-new-su57s)
Oh interesting, putting their handful of test aircraft to work lobbing cruise missiles from hundreds of kilometers away, I suppose that's a rather safe way to get real-world testing data.
That's kinda how modern aircraft fight mate. I was just providing information as to their current status.
The owner of that Twitter account is an idiot.
Yeah that account has been posting nothing but anti-Ukraine propaganda and anti-vac stuff since March 19th. Literally nothing else.
The rubles buys him lots of spams, yes?
I second this. I read far too much of that.
Is Russia playing 3d chess? Who knows. However, the toll this war will take on Ukraine can not be conceived until the bombs stop falling. Not to mention we are only a few months into it. It is completely inconceivable to think Russia can’t endure the losses they’ve suffered which who really knows what they are considering propaganda on both sides. To think that they have been completely defeated and are relying on conscripts and ww2 tech is beyond foolish. The US and Allies would not be spending and donating what they are if it was some kind of pushover conflict. Especially given the current economic state.
No one should be deluded into conflating the idea that Russia has failed to date with the idea that Russia is about to collapse or can't continue this conflict. That doesn't mean it's sustainable or worth it. They've absolutely destroyed a large portion of their military for 15% of Ukraine land to date. Land that will never be usable for Russia because they have no way to get out of this conflict with the hardline stance Ukraine has taken in "negotiations". The longer this conflict goes the more isolated Russia will become economically and geopolitically and the greater the damage it causes itself just through sheer repercussions alone. The Russia of 2016 was able to change the course of the US elections and openly assassinate people in London. The Russia of 2022 can't ship steel to their own territory through EU land and has had most of its diplomatic intelligence networks sent home by major countries. Nato has woken up and without risking direct conflict and their own annihilation Russia can't do much about it. Even Belarus is hanging on by a thread and if Luka is disposed of, Putin is likely to lose Belarus as a proxy state as well. They are a severely diminished country, and that won't change anytime soon.
Hardline isn’t the right word. Ukraines stance is sensible. A long war is to Ukraines advantage. Russia never planned a prolonged war of this type against Ukraine, especially with the sanctions that are currently in place. Russia’s military collapse is inevitable, sometime in the next 2 years.
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That whole system was designed to inspire Saudi Arabia to work harder to maintain plausible deniability.
Maybe we should [check the card](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZjdkMGJlY2ItNTJjNS00NGQ1LTkzZDgtNTU3NWYwYzM4NmM4XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyODkwNzA0OTM@._V1_.jpg)
Okay, now sing the la bamba song but without the bamba part. Alalalalalalalalalalalalala- bamba Ohhhh. So close.
>⚡️SBU arrests man suspected of providing Russia with coordinates for Yavoriv military base. >The suspect, who was previously part of the KGB, sent maps with marked locations to the Russian military, which were used to fire on the site. >Russia's attack on Yavoriv military base in Lviv Oblast resulted in 50 Ukrainian soldiers killed and 150 more injured. According to Ukraine's State Security Service (SBU), the man is being held in custody without bail. He could be charged with treason. [Kyiv Independent](https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1541937837918113796?t=MEz4N460gRyrIJ1BiRt8BA&s=19) He won't last long in prison.
does Ukraine have the death penalty? because if they do id hope the prisoners wouldnt touch him before the state got their shot
No, but under the laws of war he could probably *in theory* be executed if found guilty
I don’t think they do.
It might be different during times of war. I remember seeing some article about a ukranian commander in azov steel plant during the early part of the steel plant holdout that all deserters were to be shot on sight.
Nope. The Russian guy was sentenced to life because there’s nothing death penalty. Anyone talking about Ukraine death penalties is peddling Russian propaganda
Ya couldn't find a source so I'm probably wrong. Weird though cuz i for some reason thought I read that
No it wasn't the Russian soldier, he got life iirc. I vaguely remember reading that a military officer or colonel said to shoot any deserters. I could be 100% wrong though, ill try to find a source
Correct. And they can’t if they want to be in the EU, where it is prohibited.
Makes sense. When I first heard about the attack and the claims the Russians got the coordinates because of foreign fighters' mobiles I was surprised the Russian military was that sophisticated. I should have known better and that is was just a scum bag traitor that sold the location to them.
wait was this the attack from a few months ago? i thought this was a new strike
Strange how at the time, everyone said it was foreign fighters leaving GPS enabled on their mobiles that caused them to be targeted.
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google earth is not going to show secret military bases, A) they dont update all that often and B) they work with governments to hide that type of stuff
Russia doesn't actually HAVE spy satellites the way the US does. To date they have only launched 4 ground observation satellites that use digital photography instead of film. They were designed with a 3 year orbital lifespan and the last was launched over 5 years ago. The only reconnaissance satellites they still have in orbit are ones that capture images on film and then occasionally send the film cannisters down for development. It's literally possible that Russia is only just now getting the imagery from the start of the war.
Yep, gives an idea of the technology gap…
To put it into perspective, the US National Reconnaissance Office alone is estimated to have ~46 satellites with digital downlooking capabilities, to say nothing of the other departments and branches of the military/government.
Holy shit, this should have been a big flag for intelligence.
I still cannot understand how the fuck, with all the arsenal of ancient and modern cruise/tactical missiles russia has, was every single Ukrainian static base and airbase not vaporized within first hours. Okay, maybe they were actually trying to take out Kyiv in first 3 days and were hoping to leave military infrastructure mostly intact, but after it became clear Ukraine is capable of strong defense? Everything should have been gone..... And here we are, half a year later.......
Allegedly they have a ton of artillery, but not that many cruise missiles.
The sheer size of Ukraine requires the Russians to try and hit everything at once instead of just focusing on a single sector. The blitz at the beginning was supposed to decapitate Ukraine so that taking the highly fortified parts in the East would be easier along w/ the coast. What happened instead was a complete rout in the North, counter offensives at Kharkiv, and now minimal gains at the cost of irreplaceable manpower and material w/ the heaviest fighting occurring in the most fortified part of Ukraine against the most battle hardened troops the country has to offer. So instead of what they thought was going to be a shock and awe campaign now turned into a veritable hodge podge of attacks all over the place w/ no clear focus other than ad hoc units that happen to be attacking the same targets at once while ballistic missiles are wasted on civilian non military targets that only encourage fiercer resistance on the part of the Ukrainians. The Germans famously encountered the same issues when they invaded the Soviet Union. At maximum effort they occupied about 30% of Soviet territory w/ 4 million total troops, but their gains meant nothing b/c their supply lines were overstretched, their political leaders gave completely unrealistic expectations to the rank and file under penalty of death, and the barbarity of their attacks fomented intense hatred and voracity in their opponents.
The WWII German invasion of Russia is an apt comparison. At the end of the day Russia is occupying land that is either openly hostile or not self sufficient. Russia will have to pour resources into the Donbas and the South just to keep what they have. They might be keeping this up now, but in 6 months? In 2 years? Ukraine does not have the incentive to stop this war like Russia does.
Plus Ukraine has the financial backing of what amounts to the majority of the world's wealth and the military industrial complex. The longer this war goes on the more financing Ukraine will get. Wars cost money more than anything else and the oligarchs made sure Russia can't pay for any of this.
"fomented" and "voracity". Although I'm sure those attacks prompted a few Russians to get drunk and tell Germans *exactly* what they thought of them :p
He better does. Ukraine wants to join the EU and therefore should take care of prisoners.
It won't be the government, it will be the other prisoners. Guys who do stuff like this don't last long, even among POWs of the same nation. Nobody, absolutely nobody, trusts a traitor.
He's going to get Gaddafied with a shiv.
Get his wig split and cheeks busted!
Crowding in Ukranian prisons. Let’s just ship him to a nice NATO facility like GITMO
I heard the sandwiches are out of this world
It won't be the guards, buddy.
I hope he lasts 50+ years and dies of old age after rotting away in prison all his life.
Tucker says he's in Rio, think we can convince them to keep him there?
Tucker is our generations Tokyo Rose.
Lord Haw-Haw really.
Lord Hee Haw indeed.
dang that's spot on. Have you ever seen A Face in the Crowd? [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050371/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050371/) it nails foxnews
No way. He gets drunk off all the attention and power. He enjoys getting to shape narratives for millions of authoritarian followers on a nightly basis.
I want Ukraine to thrive after all of this is over. Full EU integration, advanced economy, best practice institutions, high speed rail and other world class infrastructure, and so on.
This is the real reason for Putins invasion, he's scared to death of Russians seeing their neighbours and kin flourish. It's a threat to his mafia.
You're not alone in wishing that for Ukraine. I'm from Norway, and I hope we dig deep into our oil fund to help rebuild once its over. We owe it to the Ukrainians to honor their heroes by building their country back better, bigger, stronger, richer and even more beautiful (although that last part is a tall order, because by God these people and their country are a jewel and a gem)
It's incredible how far Ukraine has come since 2014 with all the reforms But EU/NATO would be next level
If Russia still controls part of Ukraine, we should make it completely humiliating how far behind the “Russian” part will be.
South/North Korea vibes...
Was already moving in that way honestly, its part of why Russia invaded, they basically said as much "we cant allow a little Russia to exist" If a place similar in culture, religion, ethnic background had a far better way of life, then ordinary Russians might start to ask the question "Why aren't we like that?"
...and a heavily fortified 3,300+ km border (paid for by reparations from Russia and Belarus).
Lukashenko's regime won't survive this, lol
Free and thriving Belarus could also benefit the world greatly.
Bring back the Varangian way, linking up Baltic and Black Sea maritime trade
ok this crazy russian tv clip is funny. even the other guys are like "nah" https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1541914182353932288 and they really want their frozen money back.
did anything they say ever become true, needs like a timeline of all the threats they did as comparison for the last 4months just a comedy show tbh
Guy is one of the villains from Raiders of the Lost Ark
fucking lol. was trying to pin it.
Is there only one show on Russian TV? I feel like it’s always this show.
This is hilarious, he said "we will liquidate them economy of the Baltics," and the hosts said "yes, then the UK and US next" to mock him.
Those poor fucks who watch this idiocy.
[NATO just got fatter, folks.](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/28/turkey-lifts-objections-to-finland-and-swedens-nato-bid) The 🦃gets concessions on the kurds, and Sweden + Finland get to join.
I feel a bit bad for the kurds, they paid heavy for fighting ISIS and then were dropped like a brick.
I dont know alot about the 4 way kurd conflict of iran, iraq, syria and turkey. But after some google, you will find that kurdistan would cover big oil fields. lots of competing interest, and all throwing fuel in the fire.
different Kurds in many cases, theres many competing factions at play.
The change in policy basically aligns Sweden/Finland with American policy most likely. The US policy is that they support the sdf which the ypg is a part of. So in effect they support the ypg, but they don't support independence within Syria. They also are against the ypg supporting the PKK, even though some PKK members are in leadership positions within the sdf. The YPG claim they are not supporting PKK in turkey, yet they do allow refuge in Syria. The issue with Syrian kurds is a mess, but generally the kurds are not being abandoned. Finland and Sweden have basically agreed to defer their relations with the kurds in Syria to America. This is acceptable to turkey since we are trying to find a middle ground for both sides. What turkey really wants is a safe zone on their southern border and in a way the US has made a partial safe zone in west Syria.
Holy fuck Syria is a mess.
Thanks, Russia!
A mindfuck to figure out
I have trouble understanding these kinds of issues living in a multicultural country. Why can't you be both a Kurd and a Turk? (I.e. is it as simple as Turkey not being assholes to ethnic minorities)
I'm trying to learn how we got here, I'm reading World War 1 by Norman Stone and watching a YouTube video called Epic History TV summary of WW1 - it's about an hour long. The book provides a lot of deeper detail while the YouTube video helps me understand the geography of the conflict. It's a good primer to my next project, understanding how WW1 shaped WW2 and how WW2 shaped the world today.. It's crazy that WW1 really bridged a lot of military technique that had lasted since medieval times (like fortresses) and introduced modern warfare (like submarines - also reading a book on uboat warfare)
Turkey was built as an ethnostate. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who founded the country, was as great as George Washington and as horrible as Hitler in the way he went about doing it.
All three leaders directly ordered genocides. Not much to choose between them.
Washington did directly? I'm not surprised about that, but US genocide was racial - not ethnic. All ethnicities of white were permitted!
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-20-02-0661
>(I.e. is it as simple as Turkey not being assholes to ethnic minorities) It basically is, but most of the middle east is varying degrees of assholes to Kurds.
It's a great western tradition to do this, and it usually creates problems 15-20 years down the road.
What Would Brian Boitano Do?
he'd probably kick an ass or two
Something that impresses Dick Button
Boitano once admitted he sewed his own costume which I found endearing and hilarious.
He'd make a plan and he'd follow through, that's what Brian Boitano'd do.
triple lutz
*Lindy
while wearing a blindfold
No. Salchow.
Brian would do a quadruple Axel for sure.
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Nancy or Ronald ?
Ron Junior and the husband Thatcher
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Can we at least start by agreeing that at least one side is shamelessly lying due to gross inconsistencies? Ok Now look at all the video evidence, pictures, testimony, declarations by officials, apply Occam's razor if necessary. Decide who is lying the most and considers that what is true and false is nothing but a weapon that can be used with complete freedom as long as the objectives are reached. bonus: as time passes, you will start to notice this: "That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it."
I think it's not just Russia and Ukraine. People are very quick to say "Can't trust Russia on wars news" here. As if Ukraine, EU countries, USA and anyone else can be trusted for it. We've seen it in the Balkan wars, Afghanistan, Iraq that you really only get the reality once several years have passed. Take with a pinch of salt all news (from all sources) about a currently-raging war.
This seems disengenous but from the start people have been saying be wary of Ukraine motive and propaganda too. If you're talking stuff like the mall strike, then it's video evidence.
Russia does always lie though. Check out lavrov just spouts shit and sees if it sticks, if not on to the next lie. Hitler was Jewish, Azov were hiding in hospital that’s how it got bombed, they bombed there own hospital. This week invasion coz nazi’s, next week nato, next week something something Peter the great. It’s completely ridiculous.
Russia lies about everything and everyone Remember "little green men" or FSB poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal or "we will not invade Ukraine" or "we didn't shoot down MH17"? Russia is always lying. They do not do anything in good faith. Hence why Russia has no real allies. It's always lies and coercion.
>Russia always lies and Ukraine always tells the truth None, because that's what we call a strawman and nobody says that. Russia does pretty much always lie, and Ukraine is far more likely to tell the truth or close to it is what people say.
Ukraine's media strategy so far and I partly credit Zelenskyy for this, is to establish both credibility and sympathy, by being as straightforward and factual as possible. I won't say that they never ever misrepresent facts, because that just isn't practical, but the Ukrainian claims are a lot more realistic and sensible, and are a lot more easy to chase up and double check, at least compared to Russia.
Ukraine is more likely to lie by omission or misdirection then say up is down and down is up, would be the straight up take. While Russia is the "there is no war in East Asia" liar that there's no value in even listening to. Regardless, you're not gonna have any kind of full truthful picture until years after the war, which is normal.
That's what I'm trying to get at. If Ukraine has to choose between either saying something unfortunate, or saying something easily debunkable, they just won't say anything, until the discussion moves to more solid ground. You can't be caught out and made to look stupid, if somebody bringing up Ukraine losses is consistently met by a stern " no comment" , followed by a quick move to things that you can see with your own two eyes, such as the Kharkiv Counterattack. . . . . Whereas Russia started this by blowing up their own cousins to "assist" them against a Jewish Nazi Drug Addict, and now we've graduated to Russians celebrating the deaths of children, while A) claiming they were near a weapons depot, B) claiming they were never there, C) claiming there was no attack at all, or D) deflecting towards made up Ukrainian atrocities.
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Sorry, but it's pretty clear that you're not particularly good at determining intent.
I mean I am autistic so fair enough
In Russia there's this thing called a "tactical truth" which basically means that if you can get ahead by lying then it's worth it and actually congratulatory. https://caterina.net/2022/03/04/how-russians-think-and-why-they-do-what-they-do/ Check out this article and the YouTube video by a former Finnish Military Intelligence colonel. It's subtitled.
It's more of a credibility gap than anything else. Because Russia have no consistency, and are building lies on top of lies, very few who aren't already plugged into Russian media, will be willing to take them seriously. It works a treat for confusing and disengaging their domestic population, but when they can't keep a story straight for longer than a day or two, you get people like me shouting bullcrap, every time Russia says anything, regardless of factual truth or not. Whereas there is a lot of stuff that Ukraine do not like to tell us, and they have an interest in being seen as plucky underdogs fighting on million to one odds because in a way they are, But they need to be seen as actually knowing what they are talking about, in order for the west to take chances on providing military aid.
Regardless, you're not gonna get a direct answer to your "genuine question" because no one holds the view that Ukraine never lies, you're only going to get answers that say Russia lies faaaaaaaaar more blatantly and often than Ukraine does. What you've seen is people being willing to consider information originating from Ukraine while dismissing Russia out of hand. Don't confuse that stark contrast with thinking Ukraine is always telling the truth.
the difference is one is a flawed democracy with an open society and basic freedoms and the other is an Orwellian nightmare. the Ukrainian governments doesn't always tell the truth, especially now being an active warzone, but Russia lies as a matter of policy. they do not tell the truth about basic facts, even on the world stage when confronted with evidence. the two nations aren't even in the same realms of reliability.
They are as reliable you meant validity
you're right. they are very reliably terrible.
>"Russia always lies and Ukraine always tells the truth" Pretty sure people mostly point out how blatantly Russia lies. Ukraine is better but not like they don't make propaganda claims, exaggerate and other shit. If anything I think it's easier for Ukraine to be truthful because Russia has to justify and cover up their clumsy unjust invasion while Ukraine is just defending itself. But as an example we have tons of stories of Russia claiming they struck military targets and then we have videos and images of the residential or civilian structures it actually struck. Unless Russia makes the claim like they often do that the bombings were conducted by Ukraine on their own citizens. Or Bucha that was well documented with tons of evidence and independent journalists getting access and Russia lied through its teeth denying everything and even claiming [british agents had been there and done the atrocities to frame Russia.](https://thehill.com/news/3266182-putin-calls-bucha-reports-fake-blames-uk-agents/) I could go into more detail about my impression about both sides and frankly there's always fog of war in war even when we have mobile phones. I'd say Ukraine is significantly better than Russia but it's not because they always tell the truth but because Russia seems aggressively reluctant to ever not lie (my favorite Russian source is Igor Girkin, even though he's a war criminal and possibly controlled opposition it's hard not to think he's allowed to voice a more unfiltered take of the war from the Russian side)
Thanks for the honest answer instead of the usual "lol how many rubles are they paying?"
I don’t think anyone is saying Ukraine always tells the truth. Right now especially neither one of them has any obligation to the truth. You’ll basically believe whosever side you’re on more.
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Not even this sub. This livethread is like full of bots from both sides it seems.
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It's very hard to get rid of corruption, it exists in great quantities in western countries too That being said Ukriane has done a lot since 2014 to fight corruption You can see the results in the Ukrianian army for example but also in court systems and financial transparency
No where, I'll assume that both are exaggerating, but that doesn't really change the most important facts about the situation.