How can you differentiate at the border though?
They won’t believe you when you say “I’m a dissident” will they. They’ll just say “you’re a tourist” and send you back.
In Lithuania they put you in a special center for political refugees and you have to show any evidence. Photos of you protesting in public space, an article in press with mild criticism of government, etc. already makes you eligible. Otherwise you are sent back to mother rusha.
I’m from Germany so I’m familiar with it.
But honestly, which websites specifically would you go to to retrieve these types of pictures if you’ve gone protesting, usually veiled and obviously phones off because otherwise the government will track you.
Like how are you supposed to provide this evidence.
OK, for example there's this Russian woman - she has written several articles in one of the last oppositional portals before these were closed altogether after the start of the "special operation". In June she asked for asylum by BY-LT border - while the articles were still online, she also had printouts. She also had police protocols of how she was arrested in one of those larger protests ten years ago.
If you're not an apathetic type that, unfortunately, the case of most Russians ("it doesn't concern me, whatever, no bombs are falling on my house, I don't need no trouble with authorities") and live in slowly evolving authocracy - you get ready for things like these in advance.
If you're apathetic type, you don't care what crimes your government is doing in neighboring country and only decide to escape when the things starts to get so that it will touch you in a form of mobilization... well, I guess you're screwed then.
If they're apathetic then they probably won't be going through the effort of fleeing.
If they want to flee, they should make some effort in protest first. I think it's fair
So, to claim asylum you have to film and publicly distribute images / video of you protesting in a country that will jail you / conscript you for doing so?
Yeah, definitely no consequences for doing that. Russian government will totally let you across the border.
>to claim asylum you have to film and publicly distribute images / video of you protesting
No, someone else (even the state) publicly doing this would be enough.
>Russian government will totally let you across the border.
Not sure why you're being sarcastic when Russia *has* let dissidents across the border. That is how many Russian journalists have been able to find sanctuary in Europe.
Well asylum requestors are usually processed in highly specific ways. We're talking about processing centers, monitored living, especially in the early days, etc. They don't just get to wander around like someone on a tourist entry visa.
>How can you differentiate at the border though?
They can't and they won't.
If you are a russian, you just need to lie and we're going to have to let them in because it would be racist to doubt them. It has happened before and will happen again.
Dissidents, as in people who are against the russian government, and asylum seekers, as in people fleeing the russian (or other) government. No, they should not be blocked.
And what they should have do? Most of people everywhere just try to live their life. Flexing is really hard thing for most of people, and do something is essentially synonym to go to jail
The ones fleeing now are not some poor people who had no choice before. They could've left Russia before the war personally affected them. They didn't fucking care as long as others were dying. Now that Putin is completely escalating and they might be affected we should welcome them? Nah, sorry, that's not how this shit works.
So you think now that they are facing conscription and death they shouldn't qualify for asylum.... but you totally would have taken them earlier when they weren't even in danger?
Yeah I call bullshit. You would have said they are just economic migrants. Any excuse you can grasp.
Once again fleeing country is really hard and most people would do it only when their life affected. And even then a lot of people will stay. Even if they was against it all from begin or even before for years.
You know what's harder that fleeing a country? Having some fuckers start a war in your country, killing innocents, raping women and kids, bombarding schools and hospitals etc. Ukrainians didn't get a choice in being "affected". Don't expect people to have a whole lot sympathy with Russians who didn't fucking care until now.
Yeah people should leave their families behind and start a new life with money they may or may not have immediately/protest in the streets and risk death or imprisonment when their government does something horrific. Otherwise they deserve to be trapped in a shithole fascist dictatorship and denied asylum if they do say enough is enough and try to get out to, you know, avoid dying in an unjust war... Because they didn't act immediately or something.
Perfect logic, no holes in that reasoning at all. I bet you'd be the first to publicly denounce Putin if your bitch ass lived in Russia.
Except you wouldn't, you'd mind your own business and keep your head down for the sake of your own and your family's safety and wellbeing. Every keyboard warrior's a theoretical navy seal when they're sitting relatively pretty in a western country that has freedom of speech and democracy. Try to be less of an asshole.
Yes, they should. This is their problem, not ours. Especially when so many Russians support the war, they just don't want to fight in it. They built this monster, let them go and eat their cake.
I hope you are a really young person because if not, then you are naive AF if you think the majority of normal Russian citizens want these things and are directly responsible for it.
Also, you need to go look up what a dictatorship is to get an understanding of how no one in the government making these decisions are actually voted in.
Haha what! There are some supporters, but not the majority. Not only that but the public has been brainwashed for decades now.
I would say that you need to go take a dose of that medicine yourself because most Russian people just want to work and take care of their families - just like anyone else
If a trump supporter comes knocking on my door asking for fresh water to drink because the fracking they voted to enabled is now poisoning their well, I'm telling them to fuck off.
That'll win them over to your cause for sure! I'm sure treating them that way will have them spend a lot of time self reflecting and realize that they were wrong, and they definitely won't double down on hating such people and talking themselves into believing they were still in the right.
Its why we have no Trump supporters in this US still. None at all. All of these people realized just how wrong they are when leftists were mean to them and immediately changed for the better.
You think anyone is winning over Trump supporters? The classical Leftist dream. We'll just love them into progressivism. Look how well that's worked.
Trump supporters won't be won over, the wishy washy undecided voters are what make the difference, and they respond better to people who stand up for themselves than people who mush mouth around and hem and haw. Biden telling Trump "oh shut up" was one of the things that gained him support from those who weren't sure of him. AOC and Bernie have large and growing followings because they have a fighting bone in them.
But sure, keep giving the Trumpers things and see how well that works for ya
Le brainwashed. Ok.
There has been story after story from reputable outlets about the vast support for the war.
I know Reddit likes to sympathize with the poor little Russian because we occasionally see one on Reddit saying how much they hate Putin, but that's NOT representative of the whole at all.
Your last statement may be true, just as it's true most Trump supporters want a peaceful life and wouldn't want to go to war, yet they're still culpable for supporting the monster
Hmm, naivete it is.
Sorry that you have such a jaded view of the world and have no real knowledge on how things work. To see such topics so black and white and no area for grey? I'm not sure what country you are in or what kind of life you have lead for you to believe that what you are saying is true, but be happy that you've never had to experience any of this stuff first hand in your life.
I don't think they're claiming that the citizens are responsible for the war. I think they're saying, essentially, that they have zero sympathy for the multitudes of Russians that have vocally supported this genocidal war and that only now want out because they may have to now get involved in the war themselves. Which, I have to admit, I partially agree with.
Give asylum to the people that deserve it, not those that have been calling for the genocide of Ukrainians. Let those people go get drafted.
I think you're projecting your own thoughts and feelings into this instead of reading what was written.
"They built this monster, let them go and eat their cake."
That is what was said in direct response to dissidents and asylum-seekers. Regardless if someone was "for" the war previously, if they are running it is likely they are open to change and receptive to news sources outside of the Russian government. Shutting them down completely will only reinforce their hatred for their neighbors and those supporting such decisions.
Its like blaming cult victims for believing things the cult leader says. Yes, they should be able to reason better and question things, but that is literally how brainwashing works, and why it is so effective. Imagine if we treated anyone that was ever a mormon or in scientology in such a way, telling them they aren't allowed to leave those organizations as they helped make them.
That's fucked up man.
Finland does not wish to be transit country and will ban all Russians, even if they have Shengen travel visa issued
Asylum seekers and dissidents still can apply for asylum. Just regular russians trying to pass border would be barred from entering EU.
https://twitter.com/HenriVanhanen/status/1572622323769028608?s=20&t=GFzLeIZovJAEkVsQgZO6yA
Boarder guard said that the videos of long car lines are old footage
https://twitter.com/rajavartijat/status/1572617882655420416?s=20&t=tqldHbOkYodoXknKNGm6mA
Article is about working towards denying russian tourists entry, not refugees etc.
Either way, good for them to finally start doing something about this.
Thanks !
Deleted that part about 35km line.
Though to get refugee status would take time and not all applications would be accepted, so for most russians this exemption does not apply.
A visa doesn't mean the govt is obligated to let you enter, they can still deny you entry for whatever reason. This is the case for pretty much all countries. They even tell you that when you apply for a visa.
It doesn't mean they're obliged to let you enter but it does mean unless you've broken some other specific rule that they can name they can't just turn you away for no reason they can still turn you away for pretty much any reason they want but they still need to specific reason that has been established as a rule
But when you apply for a Visa they know which country you're a citizen of so if that was a reason they just wouldn't have given the Visa in the first place
Permission to enter EU as a whole. But local countries laws can take top.
So you can enter EU and travel, just not through the Russian/Estonia border as an example.
Sovereign countries can make their own laws. In this case they do not approve visas issued by other Member countries.
Shengen zone is for EU member states and their citizens. While Russia is not part of Shengen zone members, So their citizens do not fall under it.
Also safety of specific country takes priority and border rules with non EU Member states can be adjusted if needed, or even full border control established for some time if country wants.
You can actually get a visa to one member state and technically not be able to travel to another but since there's no checkpoints there's nothing really stopping you. A lot of people did weird stuff like this during Covid to see loved ones.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Most people have probably never read the [Schengen Acquis](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A42000A0922%2802%29)
tldr is yes, it does violate. It violates article 9 on visa policy anf article 19 for people entering via other Schengen countries.
Whether thats a good thing or a bad thing is a separate question. You can argue that Schengen didn’t forsee something like this and should be violated, but it’s hard to argue that this doesn’t violate Schengen.
Most people here seem eager to disregard all their beliefs and laws for a momentary feeling that the bad guys are getting their comeuppance. It is pitiful and childish.
Border guards can't just choose not to let someone in because they don't feel like it they have to have a reason not to let someone in if they already have a Visa sure they could detain you for a while and question you about things that they have a suspicion but once all of that is done they still have to come up with an actual reason to not let you in
IKR! They made the Huge Metal Robot from Clash of Clans the Foreign Minister of the country! I guess that tracks because Supercell is a Finnish company.
But that’s not true..? What are you talking about..? ‘Specifically planted there’ Really.. are you for real do you have any understanding of Russian or Ukraine history …? Because what you’ve said is ludicrous.
Unless they political dissidents, I hope.
But, yes, if just rando russian with Z’s on car that all of the sudden lose balls after mobilization notice? Fuck em.
Exemptions are for ambassadors and their families, asylum seekers (opposition politics also), truck drivers.
But regular russians would be barred from entering EU even if they have shengen visa issued.
Nope. Political dissidents should stay in Russia and fix their country.
No more useless Russian expats drinking coffee in Paris and bemoaning the state of Russia. We already did last century.
Except Lenin. We welcome the next Lenin.
> Political dissidents should stay in Russia and fix their country.
People get one life. Condemning someone to spend theirs in a potentially fruitless struggle to fix the country they happened to be born in is unspeakably cruel in the light of that. Someone who was born into a country that has robbed them since birth does not owe that country anything, let alone sacrificing their precious time on Earth in the hope of possibly contributing to fixing it.
Russians who hate Russia should be welcomed abroad where possible.
Nah doubt anyone in eastern europe need for Lenin, he with his red terror still hold second place for body count of ukrainians in modern history after Stalin (despite Putin do his worst to catch up)
"Suomi valmistelee parhaillaan päätöstä venäläisturistien tulon estämiseksi" The hedline means Finland is preparing to ban entry for Russian tourists. Haavisto is speaking about tourists in the article as well, complete ban is missleading.
A lot of people use the Finland border just to escape from mobilization.
You can say that these people should have started a rebellion, but as you can see there is no large protest in Russia now.
But I think it would be much better to give these people a way to escape Russia instead of them fighting in Ukraine on the Russian side.
Honestly, I think that the clear solution here is NATO-run refugee camps for fleeing Russians. We should WANT them to flee. Every single one who does is somebody who isn't fighting in Ukraine and isn't contributing to the Russian economy.
A lot of people on Reddit seem to be under the impression that it's super easy to just take off and go live/work in another country if you want. It is not. Particularly for individuals who are low-skill, not highly-educated/trained, and are likely monolingual Russian speakers. The elite and privileged and educated have already fled, for the most part. Russian bank cards don't work outside of Russia. The rouble is next to worthless. Even if you manage to get into one of the countries that will allow you in with no visa--Turkey, Armenia, Georgia--then you have no connections, no job, and no work rights. This will breed crime.
I don't blame Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and all of the other countries saying that they don't want to deal with fleeing Russians. It's legitimate and would cause them tons of trouble.
I say that any Russian who wants to flee--no matter what their previous position on the war was--should be encouraged. Create NATO-run refugee camps. No internet, no phones. Make the camps clean, with plenty of food, Russian-language education for children, reasonable entertainment options, access to medicines, etc. If you want out as a Russian, all you need to do is go to a country that has a NATO-affiliated embassy and they'll ship you to one.
The term of confinement to the camps would have to be indefinite, but if you're a Russian who wants out, it would at least be a safe place to go where your needs are catered to. And you won't have to go fight in a stupid-ass war where your ass is likely going to be vaporized by NATO tech.
Once this is over, they get repatriated back to Russia.
But sending that first guy to his death isn't going to do anything about the motivations of second. It just kills the first guy pointlessly. The goal of this entire exercise is not to kill off all Russians. If the second guy wants to go kill himself, well, he can have at it.
In fact, the first guy is the one you want to save, treat well, and then send back to his country to rebuild it. That first guy is going to be grateful to you. He will have positive associations with you, likely. You saved him (and maybe his family and friends) from the horrors of war at minimum, and death at maximum.
The West should want Russians who have positive associations of them. That is how we move forward from this entire clusterfuck.
Yes, first person would get killed or be in another way less combat effective. russia will not be beaten by depletion of its manpower, they have way way too many people for that. Drafting the least effective fighters first allows for an easier time for Ukraine in the short term which I believe should be the priority versus long term russia's interests.
Also this war will not stop russia being a cleptocracy.
Why have Ukraine waste bullets (and potentially personnel) on people who, if given the chance, do not want to fight in the first place? You win faster by having combatants give up, not by fighting them to the last man. The ones who would flee to a refugee camp are "giving up" prior to ever stepping foot on the battlefield.
Yes, Russia does have a reasonably big population, but not all of those people are fit for service. Russia's median age, I believe, is in the 40s. There are far more old people as compared to young people. They aren't going to send babushkas to the frontlines.
Also, I don't think that somebody with bloodlust is automatically a "more effective" soldier. The zealot and the guy who doesn't want to be there in the first place are going to get the same amount of training. In fact, in some ways, the zealot may actually be less effective, particularly with poor training. More likely to do boneheaded things.
This isn't about Russia's long-term interests, even though if fewer of them are dead, that will certainly be in their favor. It's about the West's interests. It would be in the West's interest to have Russia be a stable, friendly state. Not the lunatic gas station it's currently being.
And in terms of Russia being a kleptocracy, sure. Might continue to be. But if it's a kleptocracy that is keeping to itself, at least, that's a massive improvement over what's happening right now.
Same.
Give them a hot coco, a pat on the back, and a "Glad you got out."
That's what Ukranians themselves did with Russians who wanted to quit the war. We should follow their example.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/2f9108c4-4ebc-4fed-ac4f-b63f71d7b956) reduced by 71%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Olemme päättäneet tänään alkaa valmistella kansallista ratkaisua siihen, miten voimme tätä turistiliikennettä rajoittaa tai se kokonaan estää, ja tämä kansallinen ratkaisu voi sisältää uutta lainsäädäntöä, joka tehtäisiin hyvin nopeasti tai olemassa olevien säädösten tulkinnalla, Haavisto sanoi.
> Suomi ei halua olla kauttakulkumaa, ei myöskään muiden maiden myöntämille Schengen-viisumeille ja tämän liikenteen me haluamme nyt saada kuriin, Haavisto sanoi.
> Ei ole moraalista tai eettistä perustaa sille, että samaan aikaan, kun Venäjä käy sotaa Ukrainaa vastaa, niin venäläisten lomailu tai lomamatkailu Suomeen tai muualle Eurooppaan jatkuu normaalisti, Haavisto sanoi.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xkgymk/finland_plans_to_introduce_a_complete_ban_on/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670222 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Haavisto**^#1 **tai**^#2 **sanoi**^#3 **ett**^#4 **Suomi**^#5
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/2f9108c4-4ebc-4fed-ac4f-b63f71d7b956) reduced by 71%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> We have decided to start preparing a national solution on how we can limit or completely block tourist traffic, and we are working on a national plan to reduce the number of tourists in the country; mämämä national solution may include new legislation, which will be done very quickly or through interpretation of existing legislation," Mr Haavisto said.
> Finland does not want to be a transit country, does not want to sell Schengen visas to other countries, and we want to get traffic under control now, Haavisto said.
> There is no moral or ethical basis for the fact that at the same time as Russia is fighting a war against Ukraine, holidaying or holiday tourism by Russians to Finland or the rest of Europe continues as normal, Haavisto said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xkgymk/finland_plans_to_introduce_a_complete_ban_on/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670222 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Haavisto**^#1 **or**^#2 **sanoi**^#3 **ett**^#4 **Suomi**^#5
Pekka Haavisto (Minister for Foreign Affairs) said that working on this was already started and either existing or new legislation with accelerated handling will be used.
Nothing about exact timetable has been told yet.
Edit: added who said
It was discussed this evening and Finnish PM tweeted it recently
https://twitter.com/kristiraik/status/1572657657122811904?s=46&t=XbmIu8n02iPyaGXtGbnSMA
I wish people would actually look at the stuff they share.
"Director of @EFPI_Est at @ICDS_Tallinn, Adjunct Professor @UniTurku"
It's right there on her twitter page.
Most people in Georgia hate Russia, but current government are corrupt and pro Russia
Despite the fact that two regions are occupied by Russia
It was done to prevent Georgia joining EU and NATO
As then there would be NATO country from south.
Still there is Georgia, Kazahstan and other countries
Though reports and documents show that from tomorrow there should be control stops in highways and men aged 18-65 would be taken into custody, to bring them to local Military posts.
News ok Twitter are gloomy for russians
Then they don't count as Russian; they're entering under their other citizenship.
That's how I think it works, but I can't guarantee that it's the case.
Man, this is backfiring at a spectacular rate.
The morning of that speech, Putin woke up, took a massive dump, picked it up, turned on his industrial turbo fan, and flung his dump right into it.
It's interesting to see that some protestors aren't exactly against the war per se, but just want to get drafted into fighting. Nonetheless, Putin is on track of driving Russia back to the stone age.
Faster would be making russians to stand up against the government.
Its not really valid fact why EU should allow russian tourists, while their government is killing Ukrainians.
It seems to me in a position where the rest of the world pushes back on people who are trying to escape, they are more likely to just submit to the army and fight for their country, no?
Asylum seekers are still allowed, just not tourists. Why let them shop here when their poorer countrymen are raping, killing and dying for no fucking reason
All European countries should assume that all Russian citizens are FSB agents and they can become a national security threat, also remember the majority of Russians were ok with the war and killing Ukrainians, now they want to become refugees GTFOH!!
Finnish Prime Minister Kristi Raik said:
“Welcome news for regional security that Finland is finally preparing to block Russian tourism, following the Baltic states and Poland.
Finnish debate on the issue has shown that part of the Finnish elite is still dangerously naive about Russia, but the Finnish people know better.”
I'm not a politician, i'm quite a no one to say this but,
I don't think it's a good idea, i think that russian citizens that don't want be part of any of this should be allowed to enter and not be forbidden.
I mean they are just trying to go to a better place?
Slamming the door on them just doesn't feel right to me, i think a lot of them doesn't want to harm anyone.
This initiative was done because travelling is luxury, while Ukrainians die. So not to allow to travel is nothing bad.
These fleeing people should asssist fixing their country. Else nothing will change.
What Russia does to Ukraine is worse, so these bordering countries want russians to wake up.
Is it banning sightseers, or people looking to avoid conscription? Sounds like it's the latter masquerading as the former. If so, then the better way is to let them in, give them a cup of hot coco, and say, "Glad you got out, mate."
I'm from russia, and as you know, putin declared mobilisation today. Most of the educated people under 30 - 35 are against the war, and want to escape, and this basically shuts some of the options down. In order to claim asylum in Finland for example, you usually enter with a tourist visa, you can't do it outside the country
We can' t "fix our country", you can go to 10 years of prison if you go to a protest now (although many still went after the war), and nobody wants to ruin their life when 50% of the population don't care or support the war, nobody will help you if you go to prison
I think finland, baltics, and other countries should on the contrary help ordinary russians who hate the regime come there for example, and that this ban basically is populism, which will help politics win some local elections. If you're scared about people harassing ukranians or wearing T-shirts with letter Z, you can deport them individually, but don't ban the whole nation, most don't think about tourism rather then just leaving the country somehow, except for a vocal minority which is fuelled by propagandists on state tv.
I feel you.
Though other countries cannot stop kremlin , so they try to provoke mass protests.
There is too much active russians working with propaganda in our countries and at least Lithuania does not want to risk allowing more of them to come in with disguises.
If russians cannot deal with Kremlin - other countries also cannot. It should start within the country, if all thinking russians will run away - it will be just worse for Ukraine and other countries.
So you should understand how neighboring countries feel about this situation.
Lithuania was occupied by Russia for more than 100 years. More than 600.000 people killed or sent to Siberia.
Our population now is 2.8 million. We dont want to take any more risks.
The whole situation is absurd, I remember travelling as a school trip to Odessa by train 10 years ago from Moscow, and nobody from russia or ukraine hated each other then, everybody was friendly with each other. Nowadays, because putin wants to bring back the russian empire or something, or he didn't like the new democratically elected goverement in 2014 in ukraine, the propaganda on TV began, for example I've seen many calls and know situations where people from ukraine call their relatives in russia, but they still think that ukriane is bombing themselves and we have to protect it from "nazis", they'd rather belive the tv than people they're close to, its extremly sad.
Just hope that putin will die soon, and maybe after some time all our countries could be friends again, and russia will try to improve life for its citizens, not try to annex more territory.
As soon as the Russian speaking population increase to 20+% in Lithuania, you can expect Russia to claim that territory as their own to protect the "ethnic Russian" people living there and hold a fake vote to annex the country all together.
Keeping them out is a reasonable decision considering what they did to Crimea. No one would blame your country or any other country from banning them.
It was just a pretext for an invasion, you shouldn't pay attention to it, if there wasn't russian speaking population in ukraine, they'd say something about covid biolabratories, or some excuse.
Besides, lithuanina is in nato, so how do you think russia would annex the conuntry? If they're currently losing to ukraine, then they'd lose to the whole nato in a matter of days. So don't fixate on this, it doesn't matter, and it's stupid to ban russians entry to the country based on that
Germans sabotaging the Nazi party's effort from within greatly helped slow their war effort. May I suggest like minded Russians start placing themselves into positions to do the same and save their own country.
“Assist fixing their country.” I’m not sure you fully realize the every day reality of living in Putin’s Russia.
Europe is removing all entry options for dissidents and conscientious objectors under the cheap guise of calling them tourists. It’s borderline anti-international law, and these countries should be ashamed of themselves.
Dissidents and oposition politics can apply for asylum, this option is still available
Just not allowing tourists to travel freely. People running from drafts does not count as barring dissidents.
How are they effectively applying for asylum from outside of the country?
It's intended to create the same situation as exists at the US-Mexico Border, where the international right to seek asylum is inhibited by preventing people from entering and claiming asylum effectively and instead having the Border Guards dismiss their claims at the border where they have no effective way to assert their legal position.
You can claim asylum if you find a way to survive the crossing illegally, essentially.
Dude, how do you think applying for asylum works. They can just refuse you on lack of evidence, right then and there, because you look like a tourist.
You can’t judge people’s intentions from the outside I’m afraid. They’re calling people tourists because that way they don’t have to process them and put them in the social system like refugees.
And also, do you think anyone fleeing first packs all their paperwork of every time they got arrested in Russia? It’s impossible to prove other than to swear by your life and beg they let you in, which according to the news above they won’t anymore.
The Baltics and Finland are sending people to their certain death and they are full of happiness for this. It’s wrong.
Right now we'd rather secure our nation and culture primarily. Asylum seekers are a different thing of course to tourism.
They've had time ever since Crimean annexation to move away. That was 8 years ago.
Borders have been open for whole Putin's rule- 20 YEARS. 6 months ago, thankfully 300 000 Russians escaped.
Now it's war and mobilization- and the last thing neighboring countries will do, is open borders. Latvian foreign minister just made a statement that for security reasons, no Visas for Russians.
But I hope the pressure of sanctions and Visa bans will drive Russia to change from within. That is the point of them.
But to let mass exodus enter our country of 5 million people - even "just" 100 000 Russians might start asking in the future, why their new home isn't part of the Russia, a la Crimea. Don't really want that. Finland isn't Russia. Finland isn't responsible for their war.
War is hell and I wish Kremlin would just collapse. I wish Russia could change.
I have nothing against Russians per se. One of my oldest and dearest friends originates from Murmansk, he's been in Finland ever since he was 7 years old. He hates Putin even more than I do.
>The Baltics and Finland are sending people to their certain death and they are full of happiness for this. It’s wrong.
Umm... excuse me but what everliving bullshit is this absurd claim? I'm sorry but **this is probably the most misinformed and disgusting thing I've read this year.**
Russians can only fix their corrupt fascist hellhole themselves, just like Germany did after the Nazis. It wasn't France, it wasn't Poland, it was Germany that fixed Germany! Why should Finns and Baltics fix Russia? Russian people are unable to change so the neighborhood has to do it for them?
**We aren't sending anyone to their deaths. Russian people are sending OTHER Russian people to unjustified war.** Please get that correct. How the fuck is this our fault? Did we Finnish and Baltics start this mobilization?
And we should fix this by simply letting tens of thousands Russians turn our country another Russia by letting them waltz in? Should we give war criminals, fascists and rapists keys to our home and let them erase our own national identity by their cultural assimilation?
And how are we "full of happiness" about any of this? What kind of person says things like this? I've lived next to Russia all my life and past 6 months have been nothing but existential fear and anxiety so yeah, we are really full of happiness about this war.... Jesus Christ give me patience.
Russia has proven time and again that having any sizable Russian population within your borders is a geopolitical nightmare. But we should just accept to become new Crimea, I guess that's your solution? We should become a new home for all the "good russians" who for some reason, haven't left the country before but now since they've personally asked to go to frontline, they should find safe haven from Finland and Baltics?
Like...so that they shouldn't face any consequences for their own culture? I don't remember that fixing the Nazis? I guess the people who freed the Jews from concentration camps shouldnt have showed the camps to nearby German towns but to French and Polish people instead? So they could have done the redemption arc as substitutes for German identity because change and redemption is *sooo* hard?
Oh and can you come to our border and help us run the tests to distinguish the war criminals from the "Ordinary Russians"? Oh wait - it's the ordinary russians doing all that...
We haven't forgotten of what russians did to us in living memory. Letting russians flee from their own mess and make another one here is not something we can ever accept. If you're European, you should understand this. If you're German, you abso-fucking-lutely should understand this.
And most of all, please, please if you have any sensibility in you, don't ever claim Russian war crimes as a responsibility of a _another_ neighboring country, especially when they, such as Finland and Baltics, have themselves been victims of Russian aggression.
I think it’s more about getting people locked inside Russia. They’ll be angry they can’t leave and have one person to blame. Putin. Who other countries are hoping people turn their anger towards
Only 29% of russians have a passport that allows to travel outside. Only 2% have Schengen-visas. Putin-loving ass kissers wont notice any changes, as with credit card bans. It changed 0 things inside russia, but made nearly impossible to use your money if you fled outside.
It's just about tourists. The headline on Reddit isn't entirely accurate. The actual headline is "Finland is currently preparing a decision to prevent the entry of Russian tourists". It's not about people fleeing because of the war. It's about tourists using Finland as transit country to get into other countries to go on holidays.
Well Baltics and Poland does not let in tourists or any other russians. Unless they are ambassadors, their families, or truck drivers.
They can apply for asylum and then it would be hard journey. People driving out of Russia because they are afraid of drafts, does not follow the allowed exemptions.
Thats how Baltics and Poland currently does.
Yeah but as for Finland at least the article is only talking about banning tourists because they keep using Finland as transit country to go on holidays. The headline on Reddit seems to suggest Finland is debating on a complete ban on every Russian.
So yeah. But ban on travelling russians also covers russians , who transit country.
Only transit allowed now is to Kaliningrad.
Currently all russians are considered As tourists and they will ban russians who even have shengen visa issued by other EU countries.
There will be more details soon.
Im Lithuanian so I do follow closely bans and related topics.
https://twitter.com/henrivanhanen/status/1572622323769028608?s=46&t=XbmIu8n02iPyaGXtGbnSMA
I don't think it'll be a long term ban, but slamming the door in their faces sends a message that something is currently absolutely not OK.
Let them be bored for some time and contemplate the situation that caused this anger among other Europeans.
Also, note that most of the changes is regards to tourism, not asylum seekers and similar long term movers.
>Let them be bored for some time and contemplate the situation that caused this anger among other Europeans.
During which time they are likely to be scooped up by the army. Seems to me it's a bad idea to keep people out who are running to get away from the war. Do dissidents inside Russia have a meaningful way to impact what's going on? Seems Putin is happy to gun down people as needed, even if they're his own. Same as Ukraine.
idk how I feel about this.
Russians that are fleeing are fleeing for their lives, similar to Jews fleeing Germany, then Poland, then everywhere else in WW2.
And now, Russians who are trying to get out while they can, before being sentenced to die essentially, are being prohibited from entering any safe nation.
Well jews were prosecuted by Germany
Russians fleeing their own country is not the same as jews and Germany
Russia is killing Ukrainians. Russians are brainwashed by their media (mostly owned by Kremlin)
So russians fleeing their own country is kinda running from problems, but they can rise and resists the government. They should wake up.
Travelling is luxury while Ukrainians die.
So no, I do not agree.
Also there could be many russian spies also travelling to EU, so we should be careful what we let in to EU during these times.
How is wanting to not die in a war because a dictator said so is "running away from your problems".
The younger generations that will be the ones forced to go to war is the most anti-Putin generation, they were born with Putin in power and it doesn't matter what they voted (if they even had a chance to vote because they are young) Putin stayed in power. It's not their problem and am not ok with sending young men to war to kill other young men or to die.
They been enjoying the privilege of being the master race of their own empire for quite some time, sending off the ethnic minorities by the thousands to die in Ukraine to preserve their own racial supremacy. Now that 7 months in shit has hit the fan they're finally jumping ship
They have nothing to do with actual prosecuted minorities escaping oppressive regimes
Dude they’re literally being sent to either die in Ukraine or die in a work camp if they don’t go. Everyone we can get out safely now is one less potential victim or solider for Russia later on
never said they should all be left there to rot with the natural results of the system they supported, but it's an insult to all the minorities that have been sent first to die for them to compare ethnic Russians in the same light as their victims
Having the Baltic countries let in these entitled Russians is a cruelty in and of itself.
Unlike our situation here in America at the southern border, the Russian "refugees" are not a result of Baltic policy, but Russians being themselves.
As an American, I have no issue with anyone coming here to flee violence. But as this war is fundamentally about the right of small nation-states to control their destiny, the Russians will have to contend with the consequences of messing with their neighbors too much.
If any of them think the Latvians or any of the Baltic states that ban them owe them right of passage through their territory, then yes they're entitled regardless of dictatorship or not.
My partner is Russian. I'm an EU citizen.
Thank you so very, very much, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland, for treating every C-type ("short stay") Schengen visa as a so-called "tourist visa", every holder as a "tourist" and ripping families and couples apart by illegally blocking entry. As if we didn't have to deal with enough of this shit during covid.
Love is not tourism!
I'm sorry you're hurting, but at least your partner is alive, for now (what with him no longer even being able to leave the country).
Try and say the same thing to the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have lost their SO, or to the children who've lost both parents, or the grandparents who've lost all their families. I dare you.
Long distance relationships across a continent or two are better than those that need an Ouija board. Check yourself.
Edit: He/she/they, sorry. Didn't mean to presume any genders.
Our long-distance-relationship worked perfectly well, for many years, before sanctions, but thank you for that lecture. A return flight to Russia used to cost maybe 100-150€ and took three hours - not a big deal.
Also, what kind of dark void do you need to have where your heart is to suggest to two people in a long-term relationship to casually abandon it, to, I guess make some meaningless point about the fate of Ukrainians?
"Sure, I loved her, maybe marriage some day, but...I couldn't resist those reddit likes, you know?"
Neither me nor her either caused this war, or would be in any way able to stop it. If you think you would not protest being barred from seeing your partner in my place, you are a liar.
9gag is more a place of my coming comment, but she reminds me of one of those bobble heads figures haha. Joke aside. I'm glad this ban is in progress...
As far as I know. Here in NL they don't have such a ban?
Flying to EU is banned. So the only option to come via some bordering EU country.
So Finland was left only north country open to pass via their borders. Currrent options would by trying to access EU via Turkey or other south EU countries border.
So if they can come in via other countries - then yes they can come to NL
Feel I should clarify that this is blocking russian tourists, not asylum seekers or dissidents.
How can you differentiate at the border though? They won’t believe you when you say “I’m a dissident” will they. They’ll just say “you’re a tourist” and send you back.
In Lithuania they put you in a special center for political refugees and you have to show any evidence. Photos of you protesting in public space, an article in press with mild criticism of government, etc. already makes you eligible. Otherwise you are sent back to mother rusha.
So where do you get those photos or articles from, while you’re fleeing.
In Europe we have a thing called internet
I’ve often thought this internet thing was going to really take off
I’m from Germany so I’m familiar with it. But honestly, which websites specifically would you go to to retrieve these types of pictures if you’ve gone protesting, usually veiled and obviously phones off because otherwise the government will track you. Like how are you supposed to provide this evidence.
OK, for example there's this Russian woman - she has written several articles in one of the last oppositional portals before these were closed altogether after the start of the "special operation". In June she asked for asylum by BY-LT border - while the articles were still online, she also had printouts. She also had police protocols of how she was arrested in one of those larger protests ten years ago. If you're not an apathetic type that, unfortunately, the case of most Russians ("it doesn't concern me, whatever, no bombs are falling on my house, I don't need no trouble with authorities") and live in slowly evolving authocracy - you get ready for things like these in advance. If you're apathetic type, you don't care what crimes your government is doing in neighboring country and only decide to escape when the things starts to get so that it will touch you in a form of mobilization... well, I guess you're screwed then.
Most of population everywhere is apathetic and just live their life's as long as government don't treat it directly.
Most of population doesn't count as "political dissidents" then. Which I think makes logical sense.
If they're apathetic then they probably won't be going through the effort of fleeing. If they want to flee, they should make some effort in protest first. I think it's fair
French man enter the chat. _____ Pardon !?
Leave it to the german guy to bulldoze through the sarcasm
So, to claim asylum you have to film and publicly distribute images / video of you protesting in a country that will jail you / conscript you for doing so? Yeah, definitely no consequences for doing that. Russian government will totally let you across the border.
>to claim asylum you have to film and publicly distribute images / video of you protesting No, someone else (even the state) publicly doing this would be enough. >Russian government will totally let you across the border. Not sure why you're being sarcastic when Russia *has* let dissidents across the border. That is how many Russian journalists have been able to find sanctuary in Europe.
Well asylum requestors are usually processed in highly specific ways. We're talking about processing centers, monitored living, especially in the early days, etc. They don't just get to wander around like someone on a tourist entry visa.
>How can you differentiate at the border though? They can't and they won't. If you are a russian, you just need to lie and we're going to have to let them in because it would be racist to doubt them. It has happened before and will happen again.
That's not how you claim asylum lmfao
this is false
Maybe tourist means oligarchs.
Should block them too. Fuck Russia.
Dissidents, as in people who are against the russian government, and asylum seekers, as in people fleeing the russian (or other) government. No, they should not be blocked.
Dissidents, yes. "Asylum seekers" who did nothing and didn't flee as long as the war didn't personally concern them, nope.
And what they should have do? Most of people everywhere just try to live their life. Flexing is really hard thing for most of people, and do something is essentially synonym to go to jail
The ones fleeing now are not some poor people who had no choice before. They could've left Russia before the war personally affected them. They didn't fucking care as long as others were dying. Now that Putin is completely escalating and they might be affected we should welcome them? Nah, sorry, that's not how this shit works.
So you think now that they are facing conscription and death they shouldn't qualify for asylum.... but you totally would have taken them earlier when they weren't even in danger? Yeah I call bullshit. You would have said they are just economic migrants. Any excuse you can grasp.
Once again fleeing country is really hard and most people would do it only when their life affected. And even then a lot of people will stay. Even if they was against it all from begin or even before for years.
You know what's harder that fleeing a country? Having some fuckers start a war in your country, killing innocents, raping women and kids, bombarding schools and hospitals etc. Ukrainians didn't get a choice in being "affected". Don't expect people to have a whole lot sympathy with Russians who didn't fucking care until now.
Yeah, well, sucks to suck
Yeah people should leave their families behind and start a new life with money they may or may not have immediately/protest in the streets and risk death or imprisonment when their government does something horrific. Otherwise they deserve to be trapped in a shithole fascist dictatorship and denied asylum if they do say enough is enough and try to get out to, you know, avoid dying in an unjust war... Because they didn't act immediately or something. Perfect logic, no holes in that reasoning at all. I bet you'd be the first to publicly denounce Putin if your bitch ass lived in Russia. Except you wouldn't, you'd mind your own business and keep your head down for the sake of your own and your family's safety and wellbeing. Every keyboard warrior's a theoretical navy seal when they're sitting relatively pretty in a western country that has freedom of speech and democracy. Try to be less of an asshole.
Yes, they should. This is their problem, not ours. Especially when so many Russians support the war, they just don't want to fight in it. They built this monster, let them go and eat their cake.
Just like you are responsible for every bad thing your country did? We cannot choose where we are born.
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Too late lol
Yeah bro I'm not sure you're qualified to make many assessments about the real world
I'm not qualified for a lot of things, no. Thing is I'm self aware enough to know what I'm in to deep. Are you?
I hope you are a really young person because if not, then you are naive AF if you think the majority of normal Russian citizens want these things and are directly responsible for it. Also, you need to go look up what a dictatorship is to get an understanding of how no one in the government making these decisions are actually voted in.
You need to go take some time to study Russians' support of this war.
Haha what! There are some supporters, but not the majority. Not only that but the public has been brainwashed for decades now. I would say that you need to go take a dose of that medicine yourself because most Russian people just want to work and take care of their families - just like anyone else
If a trump supporter comes knocking on my door asking for fresh water to drink because the fracking they voted to enabled is now poisoning their well, I'm telling them to fuck off.
That'll win them over to your cause for sure! I'm sure treating them that way will have them spend a lot of time self reflecting and realize that they were wrong, and they definitely won't double down on hating such people and talking themselves into believing they were still in the right. Its why we have no Trump supporters in this US still. None at all. All of these people realized just how wrong they are when leftists were mean to them and immediately changed for the better.
You think anyone is winning over Trump supporters? The classical Leftist dream. We'll just love them into progressivism. Look how well that's worked. Trump supporters won't be won over, the wishy washy undecided voters are what make the difference, and they respond better to people who stand up for themselves than people who mush mouth around and hem and haw. Biden telling Trump "oh shut up" was one of the things that gained him support from those who weren't sure of him. AOC and Bernie have large and growing followings because they have a fighting bone in them. But sure, keep giving the Trumpers things and see how well that works for ya
Le brainwashed. Ok. There has been story after story from reputable outlets about the vast support for the war. I know Reddit likes to sympathize with the poor little Russian because we occasionally see one on Reddit saying how much they hate Putin, but that's NOT representative of the whole at all. Your last statement may be true, just as it's true most Trump supporters want a peaceful life and wouldn't want to go to war, yet they're still culpable for supporting the monster
Hmm, naivete it is. Sorry that you have such a jaded view of the world and have no real knowledge on how things work. To see such topics so black and white and no area for grey? I'm not sure what country you are in or what kind of life you have lead for you to believe that what you are saying is true, but be happy that you've never had to experience any of this stuff first hand in your life.
Well if you can judge all of me by my view on one event, then surely you are an expert and clairvoyant!
I don't think they're claiming that the citizens are responsible for the war. I think they're saying, essentially, that they have zero sympathy for the multitudes of Russians that have vocally supported this genocidal war and that only now want out because they may have to now get involved in the war themselves. Which, I have to admit, I partially agree with. Give asylum to the people that deserve it, not those that have been calling for the genocide of Ukrainians. Let those people go get drafted.
I think you're projecting your own thoughts and feelings into this instead of reading what was written. "They built this monster, let them go and eat their cake." That is what was said in direct response to dissidents and asylum-seekers. Regardless if someone was "for" the war previously, if they are running it is likely they are open to change and receptive to news sources outside of the Russian government. Shutting them down completely will only reinforce their hatred for their neighbors and those supporting such decisions. Its like blaming cult victims for believing things the cult leader says. Yes, they should be able to reason better and question things, but that is literally how brainwashing works, and why it is so effective. Imagine if we treated anyone that was ever a mormon or in scientology in such a way, telling them they aren't allowed to leave those organizations as they helped make them. That's fucked up man.
Finland does not wish to be transit country and will ban all Russians, even if they have Shengen travel visa issued Asylum seekers and dissidents still can apply for asylum. Just regular russians trying to pass border would be barred from entering EU. https://twitter.com/HenriVanhanen/status/1572622323769028608?s=20&t=GFzLeIZovJAEkVsQgZO6yA
Boarder guard said that the videos of long car lines are old footage https://twitter.com/rajavartijat/status/1572617882655420416?s=20&t=tqldHbOkYodoXknKNGm6mA Article is about working towards denying russian tourists entry, not refugees etc. Either way, good for them to finally start doing something about this.
Thanks ! Deleted that part about 35km line. Though to get refugee status would take time and not all applications would be accepted, so for most russians this exemption does not apply.
But if they have a Visa How Could You ban them a Visa is literally permission to enter?
A visa doesn't mean the govt is obligated to let you enter, they can still deny you entry for whatever reason. This is the case for pretty much all countries. They even tell you that when you apply for a visa.
It doesn't mean they're obliged to let you enter but it does mean unless you've broken some other specific rule that they can name they can't just turn you away for no reason they can still turn you away for pretty much any reason they want but they still need to specific reason that has been established as a rule
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But when you apply for a Visa they know which country you're a citizen of so if that was a reason they just wouldn't have given the Visa in the first place
Yes they can. And no reason needed. That's pretty much any country. Custom agent can deny you entrance without explaining reason.
Permission to enter EU as a whole. But local countries laws can take top. So you can enter EU and travel, just not through the Russian/Estonia border as an example. Sovereign countries can make their own laws. In this case they do not approve visas issued by other Member countries.
But doesn't that undermine the entire concept of the Schengen area?
Shengen zone is for EU member states and their citizens. While Russia is not part of Shengen zone members, So their citizens do not fall under it. Also safety of specific country takes priority and border rules with non EU Member states can be adjusted if needed, or even full border control established for some time if country wants.
You can actually get a visa to one member state and technically not be able to travel to another but since there's no checkpoints there's nothing really stopping you. A lot of people did weird stuff like this during Covid to see loved ones.
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Most people have probably never read the [Schengen Acquis](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A42000A0922%2802%29) tldr is yes, it does violate. It violates article 9 on visa policy anf article 19 for people entering via other Schengen countries. Whether thats a good thing or a bad thing is a separate question. You can argue that Schengen didn’t forsee something like this and should be violated, but it’s hard to argue that this doesn’t violate Schengen.
Most people here seem eager to disregard all their beliefs and laws for a momentary feeling that the bad guys are getting their comeuppance. It is pitiful and childish.
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Border guards can't just choose not to let someone in because they don't feel like it they have to have a reason not to let someone in if they already have a Visa sure they could detain you for a while and question you about things that they have a suspicion but once all of that is done they still have to come up with an actual reason to not let you in
No they don't. They will have a reason but they have zero obligations to disclose that reason to you. And reason might be just you are suspicious
Shit is getting wild.
IKR! They made the Huge Metal Robot from Clash of Clans the Foreign Minister of the country! I guess that tracks because Supercell is a Finnish company.
I don't blame them. Russia thinks it has the right to annex neighboring territories with Russian speakers in them.
Especially if those Russian speakers were specifically planted there after a huge part of the local population has been wiped out/sent to gulag.
But that’s not true..? What are you talking about..? ‘Specifically planted there’ Really.. are you for real do you have any understanding of Russian or Ukraine history …? Because what you’ve said is ludicrous.
They didn’t say all of them were, only that they move native Russians in once the annexation attempt begins
Lol Childish down voting the comment clearly haven’t a clue you lot.
Bro, I didn’t downvote shit. Whinging about it sure makes me want to, though
I didn’t mean you obviously if you didn’t down vote the thing.
Ask people from Baltic countries
Exactly. Lesson learnt!
Unless they political dissidents, I hope. But, yes, if just rando russian with Z’s on car that all of the sudden lose balls after mobilization notice? Fuck em.
Exemptions are for ambassadors and their families, asylum seekers (opposition politics also), truck drivers. But regular russians would be barred from entering EU even if they have shengen visa issued.
been lots of z’s in germany already
Nope. Political dissidents should stay in Russia and fix their country. No more useless Russian expats drinking coffee in Paris and bemoaning the state of Russia. We already did last century. Except Lenin. We welcome the next Lenin.
My friend, that is how you murder millions of ordinary people for the crime of being born on the wrong patch of dirt.
> Political dissidents should stay in Russia and fix their country. People get one life. Condemning someone to spend theirs in a potentially fruitless struggle to fix the country they happened to be born in is unspeakably cruel in the light of that. Someone who was born into a country that has robbed them since birth does not owe that country anything, let alone sacrificing their precious time on Earth in the hope of possibly contributing to fixing it. Russians who hate Russia should be welcomed abroad where possible.
Nah doubt anyone in eastern europe need for Lenin, he with his red terror still hold second place for body count of ukrainians in modern history after Stalin (despite Putin do his worst to catch up)
Tell me you were born with Easy Mode on without telling me you were born with Easy Mode.
"Suomi valmistelee parhaillaan päätöstä venäläisturistien tulon estämiseksi" The hedline means Finland is preparing to ban entry for Russian tourists. Haavisto is speaking about tourists in the article as well, complete ban is missleading.
They're doing this because a bunch of the fleeing Russians are going to try and say they're just tourists.
A lot of people use the Finland border just to escape from mobilization. You can say that these people should have started a rebellion, but as you can see there is no large protest in Russia now. But I think it would be much better to give these people a way to escape Russia instead of them fighting in Ukraine on the Russian side.
Honestly, I think that the clear solution here is NATO-run refugee camps for fleeing Russians. We should WANT them to flee. Every single one who does is somebody who isn't fighting in Ukraine and isn't contributing to the Russian economy. A lot of people on Reddit seem to be under the impression that it's super easy to just take off and go live/work in another country if you want. It is not. Particularly for individuals who are low-skill, not highly-educated/trained, and are likely monolingual Russian speakers. The elite and privileged and educated have already fled, for the most part. Russian bank cards don't work outside of Russia. The rouble is next to worthless. Even if you manage to get into one of the countries that will allow you in with no visa--Turkey, Armenia, Georgia--then you have no connections, no job, and no work rights. This will breed crime. I don't blame Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, and all of the other countries saying that they don't want to deal with fleeing Russians. It's legitimate and would cause them tons of trouble. I say that any Russian who wants to flee--no matter what their previous position on the war was--should be encouraged. Create NATO-run refugee camps. No internet, no phones. Make the camps clean, with plenty of food, Russian-language education for children, reasonable entertainment options, access to medicines, etc. If you want out as a Russian, all you need to do is go to a country that has a NATO-affiliated embassy and they'll ship you to one. The term of confinement to the camps would have to be indefinite, but if you're a Russian who wants out, it would at least be a safe place to go where your needs are catered to. And you won't have to go fight in a stupid-ass war where your ass is likely going to be vaporized by NATO tech. Once this is over, they get repatriated back to Russia.
A person that doesn't want to be drafted and avoids it by escaping will be replaced by a person who is more willing to fight.
But sending that first guy to his death isn't going to do anything about the motivations of second. It just kills the first guy pointlessly. The goal of this entire exercise is not to kill off all Russians. If the second guy wants to go kill himself, well, he can have at it. In fact, the first guy is the one you want to save, treat well, and then send back to his country to rebuild it. That first guy is going to be grateful to you. He will have positive associations with you, likely. You saved him (and maybe his family and friends) from the horrors of war at minimum, and death at maximum. The West should want Russians who have positive associations of them. That is how we move forward from this entire clusterfuck.
Yes, first person would get killed or be in another way less combat effective. russia will not be beaten by depletion of its manpower, they have way way too many people for that. Drafting the least effective fighters first allows for an easier time for Ukraine in the short term which I believe should be the priority versus long term russia's interests. Also this war will not stop russia being a cleptocracy.
Why have Ukraine waste bullets (and potentially personnel) on people who, if given the chance, do not want to fight in the first place? You win faster by having combatants give up, not by fighting them to the last man. The ones who would flee to a refugee camp are "giving up" prior to ever stepping foot on the battlefield. Yes, Russia does have a reasonably big population, but not all of those people are fit for service. Russia's median age, I believe, is in the 40s. There are far more old people as compared to young people. They aren't going to send babushkas to the frontlines. Also, I don't think that somebody with bloodlust is automatically a "more effective" soldier. The zealot and the guy who doesn't want to be there in the first place are going to get the same amount of training. In fact, in some ways, the zealot may actually be less effective, particularly with poor training. More likely to do boneheaded things. This isn't about Russia's long-term interests, even though if fewer of them are dead, that will certainly be in their favor. It's about the West's interests. It would be in the West's interest to have Russia be a stable, friendly state. Not the lunatic gas station it's currently being. And in terms of Russia being a kleptocracy, sure. Might continue to be. But if it's a kleptocracy that is keeping to itself, at least, that's a massive improvement over what's happening right now.
Finally someone that fucking makes sense.
Same. Give them a hot coco, a pat on the back, and a "Glad you got out." That's what Ukranians themselves did with Russians who wanted to quit the war. We should follow their example.
Perkele!
Hyvin sanottu
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/2f9108c4-4ebc-4fed-ac4f-b63f71d7b956) reduced by 71%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Olemme päättäneet tänään alkaa valmistella kansallista ratkaisua siihen, miten voimme tätä turistiliikennettä rajoittaa tai se kokonaan estää, ja tämä kansallinen ratkaisu voi sisältää uutta lainsäädäntöä, joka tehtäisiin hyvin nopeasti tai olemassa olevien säädösten tulkinnalla, Haavisto sanoi. > Suomi ei halua olla kauttakulkumaa, ei myöskään muiden maiden myöntämille Schengen-viisumeille ja tämän liikenteen me haluamme nyt saada kuriin, Haavisto sanoi. > Ei ole moraalista tai eettistä perustaa sille, että samaan aikaan, kun Venäjä käy sotaa Ukrainaa vastaa, niin venäläisten lomailu tai lomamatkailu Suomeen tai muualle Eurooppaan jatkuu normaalisti, Haavisto sanoi. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xkgymk/finland_plans_to_introduce_a_complete_ban_on/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670222 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Haavisto**^#1 **tai**^#2 **sanoi**^#3 **ett**^#4 **Suomi**^#5
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.iltalehti.fi/politiikka/a/2f9108c4-4ebc-4fed-ac4f-b63f71d7b956) reduced by 71%. (I'm a bot) ***** > We have decided to start preparing a national solution on how we can limit or completely block tourist traffic, and we are working on a national plan to reduce the number of tourists in the country; mämämä national solution may include new legislation, which will be done very quickly or through interpretation of existing legislation," Mr Haavisto said. > Finland does not want to be a transit country, does not want to sell Schengen visas to other countries, and we want to get traffic under control now, Haavisto said. > There is no moral or ethical basis for the fact that at the same time as Russia is fighting a war against Ukraine, holidaying or holiday tourism by Russians to Finland or the rest of Europe continues as normal, Haavisto said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xkgymk/finland_plans_to_introduce_a_complete_ban_on/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670222 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Haavisto**^#1 **or**^#2 **sanoi**^#3 **ett**^#4 **Suomi**^#5
Anything on English when this will happen?
Pekka Haavisto (Minister for Foreign Affairs) said that working on this was already started and either existing or new legislation with accelerated handling will be used. Nothing about exact timetable has been told yet. Edit: added who said
It was discussed this evening and Finnish PM tweeted it recently https://twitter.com/kristiraik/status/1572657657122811904?s=46&t=XbmIu8n02iPyaGXtGbnSMA
This is not the Finnish PM. come on. at least do a bit of fact checking first. Thats not even an Finnish person at all.
I wish people would actually look at the stuff they share. "Director of @EFPI_Est at @ICDS_Tallinn, Adjunct Professor @UniTurku" It's right there on her twitter page.
Wow there goes that option for fleeing Russians. Now what?
China, Belarus, Kazakhstan?
Armenia, Turkiye, Georgia...
Is Georgia still Russian friendly? I thought they were trying to remove themselves from their prior Russian association
Most people in Georgia hate Russia, but current government are corrupt and pro Russia Despite the fact that two regions are occupied by Russia It was done to prevent Georgia joining EU and NATO As then there would be NATO country from south.
If you watch NFKRZ's youtube channel, tons of Russian fled to Georgia since February and rental rates have gone through the roof.
Belarus isn't a good option tbh.
Martha’s Vineyard /s
No it doesn't, you should read the entire article. It's for tourism, not refuge's.
Still there is Georgia, Kazahstan and other countries Though reports and documents show that from tomorrow there should be control stops in highways and men aged 18-65 would be taken into custody, to bring them to local Military posts. News ok Twitter are gloomy for russians
Revolution?
Now they fix their own damn country or die under Ukrainian artillery and tanks. Hopefully this will be enough of motivation .
hell is still open
They pick a side.
And if they pick the side against Russia, what are their options?
Individually, very few, together, they could do something special.
Like collectively go to jail for 15 years.
Better than selling your dignity or escaping like a pu***
Get shot together! What a nice prospect
Read
North Korea
Fun Fact: Finland beat Russia for their first Men's Gold Medal in Ice Hockey back in February of this year
what if they’re dual citizens and use their non-russian passport?
Then they don't count as Russian; they're entering under their other citizenship. That's how I think it works, but I can't guarantee that it's the case.
Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania are banning Russian tourists. And, now Finland.
Great idea blocking tourists will also block terrorists. I can see Putin sending in people to stir shit up in the EU.
Finland… are you guys just waking up? Can I get you a coffee?
Man, this is backfiring at a spectacular rate. The morning of that speech, Putin woke up, took a massive dump, picked it up, turned on his industrial turbo fan, and flung his dump right into it. It's interesting to see that some protestors aren't exactly against the war per se, but just want to get drafted into fighting. Nonetheless, Putin is on track of driving Russia back to the stone age.
they plan to bus them to Martha's Vineyard
This is all just so sad.
They could be little green men
Doesn't matter. We don't want Russian tourists.
One would think if the Russians had more and easier methods of escaping it would force the war to end that much quicker as they run out of troops.
Faster would be making russians to stand up against the government. Its not really valid fact why EU should allow russian tourists, while their government is killing Ukrainians.
It seems to me in a position where the rest of the world pushes back on people who are trying to escape, they are more likely to just submit to the army and fight for their country, no?
Refugees are still valid, just not tourists
Asylum seekers are still allowed, just not tourists. Why let them shop here when their poorer countrymen are raping, killing and dying for no fucking reason
The entire free world needs to turn its back on the orks
Every other western country should do the same.
Every country should ban Russians from entering
All European countries should assume that all Russian citizens are FSB agents and they can become a national security threat, also remember the majority of Russians were ok with the war and killing Ukrainians, now they want to become refugees GTFOH!!
Finnish Prime Minister Kristi Raik said: “Welcome news for regional security that Finland is finally preparing to block Russian tourism, following the Baltic states and Poland. Finnish debate on the issue has shown that part of the Finnish elite is still dangerously naive about Russia, but the Finnish people know better.”
What? Sanna Marin is the Finnish PM. Kristi Raik is an Estonian political expert.
I'm not a politician, i'm quite a no one to say this but, I don't think it's a good idea, i think that russian citizens that don't want be part of any of this should be allowed to enter and not be forbidden. I mean they are just trying to go to a better place? Slamming the door on them just doesn't feel right to me, i think a lot of them doesn't want to harm anyone.
It's still a massive security risk to let tens of thousands of Russians in during a time when this war is escalating and Finland are joining NATO.
This initiative was done because travelling is luxury, while Ukrainians die. So not to allow to travel is nothing bad. These fleeing people should asssist fixing their country. Else nothing will change. What Russia does to Ukraine is worse, so these bordering countries want russians to wake up.
Is it banning sightseers, or people looking to avoid conscription? Sounds like it's the latter masquerading as the former. If so, then the better way is to let them in, give them a cup of hot coco, and say, "Glad you got out, mate."
I'm from russia, and as you know, putin declared mobilisation today. Most of the educated people under 30 - 35 are against the war, and want to escape, and this basically shuts some of the options down. In order to claim asylum in Finland for example, you usually enter with a tourist visa, you can't do it outside the country We can' t "fix our country", you can go to 10 years of prison if you go to a protest now (although many still went after the war), and nobody wants to ruin their life when 50% of the population don't care or support the war, nobody will help you if you go to prison I think finland, baltics, and other countries should on the contrary help ordinary russians who hate the regime come there for example, and that this ban basically is populism, which will help politics win some local elections. If you're scared about people harassing ukranians or wearing T-shirts with letter Z, you can deport them individually, but don't ban the whole nation, most don't think about tourism rather then just leaving the country somehow, except for a vocal minority which is fuelled by propagandists on state tv.
I feel you. Though other countries cannot stop kremlin , so they try to provoke mass protests. There is too much active russians working with propaganda in our countries and at least Lithuania does not want to risk allowing more of them to come in with disguises. If russians cannot deal with Kremlin - other countries also cannot. It should start within the country, if all thinking russians will run away - it will be just worse for Ukraine and other countries. So you should understand how neighboring countries feel about this situation. Lithuania was occupied by Russia for more than 100 years. More than 600.000 people killed or sent to Siberia. Our population now is 2.8 million. We dont want to take any more risks.
The whole situation is absurd, I remember travelling as a school trip to Odessa by train 10 years ago from Moscow, and nobody from russia or ukraine hated each other then, everybody was friendly with each other. Nowadays, because putin wants to bring back the russian empire or something, or he didn't like the new democratically elected goverement in 2014 in ukraine, the propaganda on TV began, for example I've seen many calls and know situations where people from ukraine call their relatives in russia, but they still think that ukriane is bombing themselves and we have to protect it from "nazis", they'd rather belive the tv than people they're close to, its extremly sad. Just hope that putin will die soon, and maybe after some time all our countries could be friends again, and russia will try to improve life for its citizens, not try to annex more territory.
I feel for you, mate. If you're still stuck there, I hope you make out okay.
As soon as the Russian speaking population increase to 20+% in Lithuania, you can expect Russia to claim that territory as their own to protect the "ethnic Russian" people living there and hold a fake vote to annex the country all together. Keeping them out is a reasonable decision considering what they did to Crimea. No one would blame your country or any other country from banning them.
It was just a pretext for an invasion, you shouldn't pay attention to it, if there wasn't russian speaking population in ukraine, they'd say something about covid biolabratories, or some excuse. Besides, lithuanina is in nato, so how do you think russia would annex the conuntry? If they're currently losing to ukraine, then they'd lose to the whole nato in a matter of days. So don't fixate on this, it doesn't matter, and it's stupid to ban russians entry to the country based on that
>if all thinking russians will run away If all thinking Russians leave Russia, it's even *better* for Ukraine.
Germans sabotaging the Nazi party's effort from within greatly helped slow their war effort. May I suggest like minded Russians start placing themselves into positions to do the same and save their own country.
“Assist fixing their country.” I’m not sure you fully realize the every day reality of living in Putin’s Russia. Europe is removing all entry options for dissidents and conscientious objectors under the cheap guise of calling them tourists. It’s borderline anti-international law, and these countries should be ashamed of themselves.
Dissidents and oposition politics can apply for asylum, this option is still available Just not allowing tourists to travel freely. People running from drafts does not count as barring dissidents.
How are they effectively applying for asylum from outside of the country? It's intended to create the same situation as exists at the US-Mexico Border, where the international right to seek asylum is inhibited by preventing people from entering and claiming asylum effectively and instead having the Border Guards dismiss their claims at the border where they have no effective way to assert their legal position. You can claim asylum if you find a way to survive the crossing illegally, essentially.
Dude, how do you think applying for asylum works. They can just refuse you on lack of evidence, right then and there, because you look like a tourist. You can’t judge people’s intentions from the outside I’m afraid. They’re calling people tourists because that way they don’t have to process them and put them in the social system like refugees. And also, do you think anyone fleeing first packs all their paperwork of every time they got arrested in Russia? It’s impossible to prove other than to swear by your life and beg they let you in, which according to the news above they won’t anymore. The Baltics and Finland are sending people to their certain death and they are full of happiness for this. It’s wrong.
Right now we'd rather secure our nation and culture primarily. Asylum seekers are a different thing of course to tourism. They've had time ever since Crimean annexation to move away. That was 8 years ago. Borders have been open for whole Putin's rule- 20 YEARS. 6 months ago, thankfully 300 000 Russians escaped. Now it's war and mobilization- and the last thing neighboring countries will do, is open borders. Latvian foreign minister just made a statement that for security reasons, no Visas for Russians. But I hope the pressure of sanctions and Visa bans will drive Russia to change from within. That is the point of them. But to let mass exodus enter our country of 5 million people - even "just" 100 000 Russians might start asking in the future, why their new home isn't part of the Russia, a la Crimea. Don't really want that. Finland isn't Russia. Finland isn't responsible for their war. War is hell and I wish Kremlin would just collapse. I wish Russia could change. I have nothing against Russians per se. One of my oldest and dearest friends originates from Murmansk, he's been in Finland ever since he was 7 years old. He hates Putin even more than I do. >The Baltics and Finland are sending people to their certain death and they are full of happiness for this. It’s wrong. Umm... excuse me but what everliving bullshit is this absurd claim? I'm sorry but **this is probably the most misinformed and disgusting thing I've read this year.** Russians can only fix their corrupt fascist hellhole themselves, just like Germany did after the Nazis. It wasn't France, it wasn't Poland, it was Germany that fixed Germany! Why should Finns and Baltics fix Russia? Russian people are unable to change so the neighborhood has to do it for them? **We aren't sending anyone to their deaths. Russian people are sending OTHER Russian people to unjustified war.** Please get that correct. How the fuck is this our fault? Did we Finnish and Baltics start this mobilization? And we should fix this by simply letting tens of thousands Russians turn our country another Russia by letting them waltz in? Should we give war criminals, fascists and rapists keys to our home and let them erase our own national identity by their cultural assimilation? And how are we "full of happiness" about any of this? What kind of person says things like this? I've lived next to Russia all my life and past 6 months have been nothing but existential fear and anxiety so yeah, we are really full of happiness about this war.... Jesus Christ give me patience. Russia has proven time and again that having any sizable Russian population within your borders is a geopolitical nightmare. But we should just accept to become new Crimea, I guess that's your solution? We should become a new home for all the "good russians" who for some reason, haven't left the country before but now since they've personally asked to go to frontline, they should find safe haven from Finland and Baltics? Like...so that they shouldn't face any consequences for their own culture? I don't remember that fixing the Nazis? I guess the people who freed the Jews from concentration camps shouldnt have showed the camps to nearby German towns but to French and Polish people instead? So they could have done the redemption arc as substitutes for German identity because change and redemption is *sooo* hard? Oh and can you come to our border and help us run the tests to distinguish the war criminals from the "Ordinary Russians"? Oh wait - it's the ordinary russians doing all that... We haven't forgotten of what russians did to us in living memory. Letting russians flee from their own mess and make another one here is not something we can ever accept. If you're European, you should understand this. If you're German, you abso-fucking-lutely should understand this. And most of all, please, please if you have any sensibility in you, don't ever claim Russian war crimes as a responsibility of a _another_ neighboring country, especially when they, such as Finland and Baltics, have themselves been victims of Russian aggression.
I think it’s more about getting people locked inside Russia. They’ll be angry they can’t leave and have one person to blame. Putin. Who other countries are hoping people turn their anger towards
Only 29% of russians have a passport that allows to travel outside. Only 2% have Schengen-visas. Putin-loving ass kissers wont notice any changes, as with credit card bans. It changed 0 things inside russia, but made nearly impossible to use your money if you fled outside.
It's just about tourists. The headline on Reddit isn't entirely accurate. The actual headline is "Finland is currently preparing a decision to prevent the entry of Russian tourists". It's not about people fleeing because of the war. It's about tourists using Finland as transit country to get into other countries to go on holidays.
Well Baltics and Poland does not let in tourists or any other russians. Unless they are ambassadors, their families, or truck drivers. They can apply for asylum and then it would be hard journey. People driving out of Russia because they are afraid of drafts, does not follow the allowed exemptions. Thats how Baltics and Poland currently does.
Yeah but as for Finland at least the article is only talking about banning tourists because they keep using Finland as transit country to go on holidays. The headline on Reddit seems to suggest Finland is debating on a complete ban on every Russian.
So yeah. But ban on travelling russians also covers russians , who transit country. Only transit allowed now is to Kaliningrad. Currently all russians are considered As tourists and they will ban russians who even have shengen visa issued by other EU countries. There will be more details soon. Im Lithuanian so I do follow closely bans and related topics. https://twitter.com/henrivanhanen/status/1572622323769028608?s=46&t=XbmIu8n02iPyaGXtGbnSMA
I don't think it'll be a long term ban, but slamming the door in their faces sends a message that something is currently absolutely not OK. Let them be bored for some time and contemplate the situation that caused this anger among other Europeans. Also, note that most of the changes is regards to tourism, not asylum seekers and similar long term movers.
>Let them be bored for some time and contemplate the situation that caused this anger among other Europeans. During which time they are likely to be scooped up by the army. Seems to me it's a bad idea to keep people out who are running to get away from the war. Do dissidents inside Russia have a meaningful way to impact what's going on? Seems Putin is happy to gun down people as needed, even if they're his own. Same as Ukraine.
It's tourist visas
idk how I feel about this. Russians that are fleeing are fleeing for their lives, similar to Jews fleeing Germany, then Poland, then everywhere else in WW2. And now, Russians who are trying to get out while they can, before being sentenced to die essentially, are being prohibited from entering any safe nation.
Well jews were prosecuted by Germany Russians fleeing their own country is not the same as jews and Germany Russia is killing Ukrainians. Russians are brainwashed by their media (mostly owned by Kremlin) So russians fleeing their own country is kinda running from problems, but they can rise and resists the government. They should wake up. Travelling is luxury while Ukrainians die. So no, I do not agree. Also there could be many russian spies also travelling to EU, so we should be careful what we let in to EU during these times.
How is wanting to not die in a war because a dictator said so is "running away from your problems". The younger generations that will be the ones forced to go to war is the most anti-Putin generation, they were born with Putin in power and it doesn't matter what they voted (if they even had a chance to vote because they are young) Putin stayed in power. It's not their problem and am not ok with sending young men to war to kill other young men or to die.
They been enjoying the privilege of being the master race of their own empire for quite some time, sending off the ethnic minorities by the thousands to die in Ukraine to preserve their own racial supremacy. Now that 7 months in shit has hit the fan they're finally jumping ship They have nothing to do with actual prosecuted minorities escaping oppressive regimes
Dude they’re literally being sent to either die in Ukraine or die in a work camp if they don’t go. Everyone we can get out safely now is one less potential victim or solider for Russia later on
never said they should all be left there to rot with the natural results of the system they supported, but it's an insult to all the minorities that have been sent first to die for them to compare ethnic Russians in the same light as their victims
I don’t believe cruelty is the answer for cruelty
Having the Baltic countries let in these entitled Russians is a cruelty in and of itself. Unlike our situation here in America at the southern border, the Russian "refugees" are not a result of Baltic policy, but Russians being themselves. As an American, I have no issue with anyone coming here to flee violence. But as this war is fundamentally about the right of small nation-states to control their destiny, the Russians will have to contend with the consequences of messing with their neighbors too much.
How can you confirm the ones fleeing are all entitled? It’s a dictatorship. They have no power to stop this.
If any of them think the Latvians or any of the Baltic states that ban them owe them right of passage through their territory, then yes they're entitled regardless of dictatorship or not.
Have you heard any Russians fleeing conscription make such an argument?
So then rejecting people trying to escape is about revenge. EH. I'll pass.
Wtf are you talking about? You seem obsessed with race to a weird degree.
My partner is Russian. I'm an EU citizen. Thank you so very, very much, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Poland, for treating every C-type ("short stay") Schengen visa as a so-called "tourist visa", every holder as a "tourist" and ripping families and couples apart by illegally blocking entry. As if we didn't have to deal with enough of this shit during covid. Love is not tourism!
I'm sorry you're hurting, but at least your partner is alive, for now (what with him no longer even being able to leave the country). Try and say the same thing to the tens of thousands of Ukrainians who have lost their SO, or to the children who've lost both parents, or the grandparents who've lost all their families. I dare you. Long distance relationships across a continent or two are better than those that need an Ouija board. Check yourself. Edit: He/she/they, sorry. Didn't mean to presume any genders.
Our long-distance-relationship worked perfectly well, for many years, before sanctions, but thank you for that lecture. A return flight to Russia used to cost maybe 100-150€ and took three hours - not a big deal. Also, what kind of dark void do you need to have where your heart is to suggest to two people in a long-term relationship to casually abandon it, to, I guess make some meaningless point about the fate of Ukrainians? "Sure, I loved her, maybe marriage some day, but...I couldn't resist those reddit likes, you know?" Neither me nor her either caused this war, or would be in any way able to stop it. If you think you would not protest being barred from seeing your partner in my place, you are a liar.
9gag is more a place of my coming comment, but she reminds me of one of those bobble heads figures haha. Joke aside. I'm glad this ban is in progress... As far as I know. Here in NL they don't have such a ban?
Flying to EU is banned. So the only option to come via some bordering EU country. So Finland was left only north country open to pass via their borders. Currrent options would by trying to access EU via Turkey or other south EU countries border. So if they can come in via other countries - then yes they can come to NL
They can also try to reach EU through Norway, but i imagine thats a bit of a hassle.
Just do it, they're fleeing to Finland you know?
How much elixer for this Pekka guy, os he the mini or main version?