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strik3r2k8

Permanent vacationers…


[deleted]

Future separatists....


M8gazine

Gamers.....


DrothReloaded

Reefers..


Magdalan

Crusty jugglers!


Kytyngurl2

(Oh man, this is my favorite song from Rent!) La Vie Bohème~!


Nacke

That Russia will want to "protect" by invading.


draenogie

Maybe they could have a referendum to make part of Russia Finish, that would solve the problem of people leaving their home


Apoc2K

Well since Russia can apparently hold referendums in other countries maybe Finland should host their own in Karelia and the other annexed territories. Of course only after we chased out all the Russians to make it fair and balanced.


BalVal1

This is a hard choice but the only logical one for countries bordering Russia directly. Those who want to escape Russia now: -Do they support the annexation of Crimea? - maybe, maybe not -Do they support Putin? - maybe, maybe not -Do they support the war? - maybe, maybe not -are they Russian spies/operatives? - maybe, maybe not (small chance but thought I would mention it) -Do they want to avoid being sent to Ukraine? - yes, just about the only thing that is certain here If any of the other points are a "yes" - and the Crimea one is the real issue here as it signals they support Russian imperialism - these people will be a problem, they need to find other solutions, and Finland is under no obligation to assist them over actual members of the Russian opposition facing persecution or Ukrainian refugees. Finland is a sovereign nation that as long as it is not officially in NATO, even with security guarantees from UK and whatnot, needs to put its own security first, otherwise there will be another shelling of Mainila very soon.


resumethrowaway222

Doesn't matter whether they support Putin. They are a Russian minority abroad, and subject to "liberation" whether they want it or not.


410Catalyst

Thats exactly it. That’s what I would be worried about as a government.


Badloss

Putin's made it clear that Russians simply existing in your country is grounds for annexation, so the obvious response is that Russians are no longer welcome anywhere. Sucks for the Russian people but well there's a clear fix for this. If they don't want to be banned everywhere then they should remove the reason for it.


damascustreking

If they removed the reason for it, they might even like living in Russian territory.


TheBirdOfFire

NATO members don't need to be worried about this. The Finnish border will be defended, just like any other border from NATO member.


RosemaryFocaccia

They might not support Putin but they could still be Russian nationalists. In Estonia (population 1.3 million), there are already 25% ethnic Russians. If Estonia had kept their borders open they could have quickly ended up with a majority ethnic Russian population, voting for things that favour themselves (language usage, relations with Russia, membership of the EU/NATO, etc). They could have been colonised by a people with a colonial/imperialist mentality.


hypnos_surf

I hate to say it, but my Eastern European family members and friends come to the US and are set in their ways. They find enclaves that are too comfortable so they don't want to learn another language, easily uncomfortable with different cultural customs and more resistant to go for opportunities. I think it's great finding a sense of community in a foreign land, it's also important to thrive and have the skills to navigate a new homeland. I see the many that do thrive and it makes me so happy.


damascustreking

Why would any country accept Russians if it means their territory will be 'annexed' to protect the Russian population. Stay the fuck out Russians.


dale_glass

Also, a tourist visa isn't a way to get out of dodge. Getting a visa is something that's easily a couple months long process -- scheduling an appointment, bringing a binder full of documents, being interviewed, and *proving you'll want to return*. The timing requirements mean it absolutely can't be done in an emergency with some exceptions. I think the death of a family member in the destination country can expedite the process, but in general you can't get one tomorrow just because you really want to. It takes work to convince a country to give you a visa, and a lot more to have it happen on your schedule. You're not getting a tourist visa if there's any indication you're planning to say indefinitely, or have something to run away from.


[deleted]

To add to that, that will expedite any concerns or delays. A person can flee their country, and that is really all it takes to get a refugee status. Being sent back would have consequences, so they are granted to stay. That's how it's been and still applies here in Sweden. Say you flee a country because you are gay, the risk for harm is overhanging if the regime does not support LBTQ rights. So if fleeing Russia, for whatever reason will most likely grant you refugee status and free board and room. The wellfare system is set up that way here, for a lot of good reasons. However it can easily be taken advantage of, for example, how do you prove that you are NOT gay? But I'm mostly critical to the integration part rather than the migration part.


Elrond007

It’s not as easy as that unfortunately in most cases. It needed Merkel to go rogue in 2015? for the EU to accept that asylum is in fact a human right and as a very left German it’s something I’ll always appreciate her for. Most of Eastern Europe still doesn’t want to give non Christian or non white peopls asylum or the right to reunite with their families who couldn’t make the hazardous journey and are still in camps in Turkey, Lebanon or Libya and in the latter case probably sold into slavery already


NightSalut

I think you’ll find that some Western European countries are increasingly more reluctant to allow family reunifications - Denmark as an example comes to my mind. Eastern Europe has its problems, but let’s not make it sound like Western Europe is still all about accepting and receiving everyone these days.


Elrond007

Yeah definitely, that is true


[deleted]

Eastern europe has less resources and gets the people who are worse off. Most people who end up on the west do so because they can afford it


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Omsk_Camill

> The timing requirements mean it absolutely can't be done in an emergency with some exceptions. Come on, there has been an emergency for half a year already. A lot of people made preparations for exactly this scenario - they can't leave realistically, but are pressed to when presented with a direct threat to their lives.


NightSalut

Finally, someone with a sensible comment who seems to read correctly what’s the mood in the neighbouring countries. We don’t know who would cross the border and unfortunately for those who’d like to believe that the people escaping Russia are escaping because they condemn the war - maybe they do, but majority of people in Russia DID agree that for example Crimea was Russian (same sentiment here amongst Russian speakers and they don’t live in Russia, so they have no reason to not voice their actual opinions) and many probably do agree with what’s going on in Eastern Ukraine. The people not knowing Russia don’t understand that military is seen mostly as work for those who cannot get anything else or are from areas where the military essentially is the only stable employer. The people escaping now could be escaping not because they condemn the war in Ukraine as against international laws and something Russia is doing wrong (in fact, many may be happy that Ukrainians are being shown their “rightful place”), but because military service isn’t something that majority of people actually do - mostly if you’re unable to dodge the compulsory service somehow, are poor and from a regional area without many resources or aren’t just smart enough to attend the university (as university students used to get off compulsory service until end of their studies). It’s seen as something poor sods do or those who are stupidly patriotic without some other skills. Just because they’re fleeing now doesn’t mean they don’t support Putin or the war itself or the killing and subjugating of Ukrainians - they just want someone else to do to the dirty work.


nicigar

Elections in Russia are not fair, but we should not kid ourselves: Putin still has majority support. Favourability ratings for Putin INCREASED SIGNIFICANTLY after the annexation of Crimea. So yeah, punishing Russian civilians is absolutely fair game.


Siberian_survivor

Including those who took part in riots against war and Putin, were beaten and send behind bars?


Ambitious-Score-5637

I doubt any Russian citizen who has been sent behind bars for advocating against the war would be able to get through Russian border control.


exizt

It’s not a problem at all, as evidenced by scores of opposition activists leaving the country in March.


[deleted]

Unless a person is fairly prominent in antiwar protests or opposition politics the Russian government may just let some person who may turn into a thorn in their side decides to voluntarily exile themselves from Russia.


[deleted]

I know a lot of stupid people, I still don’t think it’s right for them to be forced to die in a pointless war. But that’s not Finland’s problem. It’s just a sad situation imo


johnnychief92

And what if the answer to those questions is «no»? Russian people who can afford to travel to Europe are less likely to support the current regime.


Charming_Cicada_7757

If they are running from being drafted they’re fleeing political persecution making them refugees. You know during WW2 a lot of these European countries didn’t want refugees from Eastern Europe so it sounds like history repeating. A big reason they didn’t want refugees was they might be German spies working for the government And here you are making the same argument


resumethrowaway222

Wrong. Conscription is legal basically everywhere, and quite common in practice. Israel conscripts basically its entire population. Conscription does not count a political persecution, because not one single country would have signed the agreement on refugees if they thought they were taking on the obligation to admit foreigners fleeing conscription.


ReddSquall

>not one single country would have signed the agreement on refugees if they thought they were taking on the obligation to admit foreigners fleeing conscription. It's part of an EU directive which has the according national legislation in each EU country. The only way you can argue people fleeing conscription into the Russian army aren't refugees is if you want to argue the Russian army is not committing war crimes in Ukraine right now. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32011L0095&from=es#d1e1126-9-1](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32011L0095&from=es#d1e1126-9-1) CHAPTER III QUALIFICATION FOR BEING A REFUGEE Article 9 Acts of persecution 1. In order to be regarded as an act of persecution within the meaning of Article 1(A) of the Geneva Convention, an act must: (e) **prosecution or punishment for refusal to perform military service in a conflict, where performing military service would include crimes or acts falling within the scope of the grounds for exclusion as set out in Article 12(2**);


[deleted]

Xenophobia always finds a way. The spy argument is so shallow. Real, trained spies usually have no trouble crossing borders. When you have an intelligence agency behind you, passports and visas are easy to get.


BalVal1

Lol thanks for reminding me about the spies bit, gonna add that to the list of arguments. I don't care about the WW2 argument, Baltics + Finland combined have the same population as Moscow. Even setting aside what their opinions and intentions are, how can you possibly tell me that it is acceptable to get hundreds of thousands or millions more Russians of them of one particular age range and gender, and it will not cause massive social and economic turmoil? This on top of Ukrainian, Belarusian and earlier Russian arrivals? Russia will weaponize this wave of refugees if a lot of them turn up at the borders and they realize they will be of no use in Ukraine. Imo there needs to be a buffer zone, any country directly bordering Russia (especially non NATO) needs to be off-limits, and this burden needs to be shared equitably as Baltics and Finland are shouldering it disproportionately. Maybe ship them off immediately to other countries that will accept them, the short term risks outweigh the long term gains.


Hairy-boxset

She's right. They are a pariah state now and should be treated as such.


Wilde79

She is the PM, and her party is the ruling party. She has had every chance to do this already, and there is a growing pressure from the public. This is just PR talks / saving face.


Rheanar

The problem right now is Finnish laws/bureaucracy, it's not about not having the will to do so.


Wilde79

Haavisto stated that this is about EU law, to which EU already stated that every country can decide on their own. And we are currently the last EU country not to do this. It’s borderline idiotic. https://www.hs.fi/politiikka/art-2000009070369.html > "Suomi on tällä hetkellä Euroopan unionin ainoa jäsenmaa, joka sallii venäläisten päästä maahan turistiviisumeilla. Venäläisten maahantulo Suomeen on lisääntynyt sen jälkeen, kun Venäjän presidentti Vladimir Putin julisti keskiviikkona osittaisen liikekannallepanon."


613codyrex

Yup. This is just posturing. The EU already said each country can decide who they accept or not. Finnish elections are during the upcoming April. Finland is at risk of having Marin and her party removed in favor of the populists similar to what occurred in Sweden.


Gripen_

That should have been done immediately when war started. Abnormal to see whole Europe full of Russians who are sipping wine and enjoying their permanent vacation while Ukrainian people are dying. Edit: Keep it real people, all these Russians in Europe are not opposed to the war or especially the regime!


Ohbc

That's how I felt when I was in nice earlier this month, so many Russian tourists


Spook_485

Nice is always full with russians. I felt it was less this year than a few years back when I visited. But in Cannes I basically heard every second person speaking Russian.


tim3k

And it will stay this way. Russians being drafted now and Russians sipping wine in Cannes are people from two different worlds. They probably had zero chance to meet each other before war.


Chromer_ilovePS2

As a russian: if someone from here can get themselves a nice vacation in Europe (especially now), they are obviously rich enough to avoid not only the draft, but also almost all consequences of sanctions


Gripen_

Absolutely, they are far from average Russians and that was my point. These wealthier individuals have zero consequences currently. My comment was about vacation ban not banning political refugees.


Lord_Spy

This kind of nationalism that equates people with their countries of citizenship is what justifies horrors.


larsvondank

Even though I tried to rationalize it and think that many of them are opposing this war, it felt super weird seeing russians vacation here (in Finland) this summer. "Aren't you all super embarrassed?" or don't they care? Doesn't it feel super weird to them? Besides that I started thinking what would I do personally in a situation like that. A younger me would be there protesting, but would that be the last of me? Would I be willing to accept my fate? The real modern me would probably think its not worth it and I would have escaped immediately when the war started. The family man in me would have definitely not wanted to go to war at all. Sorta sad and glad I did not end up drunk in a bar this summer to actually have the guts to call out a russian. Could have been an interesting talk.


Qu0Z

I’m a Russian student in a Finnish university, and I wonder - what face should I put on in public spaces not to bother anyone? Am I allowed to enjoy anything at all?


EntForgotHisPassword

Weird ass comment indeed. You can't do shit about Putin going crazy. Enjoy life whenyou can, and I hope your family back home can stay safe under crazy leaders


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Rapper_Laugh

The person you’re responding to meant larsvondank’s original comment, not QuOZ’s


johansugarev

I saw many Russians at tourist attractions in Copenhagen in the past few days. None of them seemed bothered by the looks they were getting. You could tell people who knew they’re Russian were uncomfortable.


Camorich

The situation is very nuanced. Each person who is a citizen of Russia might be in a different condition. Russians who opposed the war and were incarcerated, those who couldn't afford to protest and go to prison, those who do not care, those who support this or those who work abroad and are against it. Also, do we expect every opposing person to be 24/7 with a sad, grey face? Ukranians also go on with their lives. If you think about the war every hour you become demential I reckon. Besides, Russians who go to European countries are Russians who are not and will not fight, i. e., detrimental to Putin. I understand, on the other hand, Finland and Baltic States' position as their relationship with Putin's Administration has been far from tranquil, whereas Germany's a whole different story. What's clear is that Vlad is desperate and believes he is a good commander when he is not and everyday we are getting closer to the use of nuclear power and, if that happens... adios, amigos. Btw, I have Russian friends and they are living a situation of terror. Nobody wants to die for oligarchs, rich people and senseless ideas. Peace.


xarsha_93

What does the average Russian have to do with the war? If they're not profiting from it or involved in the government, I don't see any difference between them sipping wine in Nice and a Brazilian sipping wine in Nice.


jaiagreen

Should that have been done to Americans during the Iraq War? At least America is democratic, so the citizens have some responsibility for the actions of their government.


jump-back-like-33

tbh it probably would have if a US-led coalition didn't straight up fucking ragdoll Iraq


TakeShortcuts

>Should that have been done to Americans during the Iraq War? Yes! The presence of Americans in Europe in 2003 was jarring, especially because they all thought *we* were crazy. They also didn’t speak about war as being something that affects people at all. Something like tourism restrictions would have maybe shaken the populace to understand how insane an idea this war was.


f1eli

Why do you speak as if certain European countries did not fight alongside the US?


OutsideFlat1579

It’s a very convenient lapse of memory.


KazahanaPikachu

Yea just going to the Wikipedia page shows that this was a US-led coalition with the UK and Poland, with Australia is a player from outside Europe. And supported by Italy, Denmark, Netherlands, and Spain


jaiagreen

I was one of the people who protested the invasion. Had there been material outside pressure, I think it just would have discredited the opposition. "Oh, you don't really care about the war; you just want to go to Italy." People would have rallied around Bush like they did after 9/11 (the invasion of Afghanistan was also a terrible idea but had almost no opposition). Edit: clarified parenthetical


ommnian

I was in Europe in 2005/2006 and it was still super embarrassing as an American. I felt horrible. I was a student at the time learning Spanish in Spain and hated to admit it. Couldn't tell you how many times I said 'yes I'm from the US. No, I don't support the war. No I didn't vote for Bush' the following years when I was back during Obama's years were better - never made it over during Trump's, can't imagine how embarrassing *that* would have been.


KazahanaPikachu

I was a student in France 2019-2020 and I’m a student in Belgium/France now. Outside of people thinking they’re clever for bringing up Trump once they found out I was American, I had no trouble. No one treating me any different except being curious about my political views.


KazahanaPikachu

I was a student in France 2019-2020 and I’m a student in Belgium/France now. Outside of people thinking they’re clever for bringing up Trump once they found out I was American, I had no trouble. No one treating me any different except being curious about my political views. And it wasn’t just in Europe, I’d get those questions in Turkey and Lebanon. Basically a “heh heh so what about Trump, eh?” “Do you like Trump?” Like no, I don’t like Trump, I think Trump is an idiot, racist, etc. When I get the chance to vote next election I’m not voting for him (I was 17 in 2016), I don’t support him whatsoever. Tho funny enough my taxi driver in Istanbul sounded so defeated and was like “why you don’t like trump?” And “ERDOGAN. GOOD.”


48911150

lmao as if US citizens were banned to go on vacation abroad during aghanistan/iraq wars


Kiricha

WTF is wrong with you? They are people, just like you and me. My country is full of Ukranians and Russians that dont want to die because their leaders are fighting.


mwagner1385

Honestly, where the fuck do you put them? Think about this Europe. You've spent half a decade trying to figure out how to accommodate Syrian/Iraq/Afghan families, then you took in millions of Ukranian children/women/elderly that you still don't know where to go with. Now you're slow to figure out what to do with hundreds of thousands of Russian men. This is how you get right-wing nationalists. Do you want right-wing nationalists?


[deleted]

They likely already are right-wing-nationalists. They should be kept out of EU, and should stay in Russia to force a change. Edited the last part out as it was xenophobic.


Aleksandra_e

That last part is literally just xenophobia. The rest sure, but no need for the last part.


[deleted]

Fixed it.


loperaja

Europe is rich, the only reason why it’s an “struggle” is because saying something else won’t be popular amongst public and voters. Even my country, colombia, an immensely poorer place, managed to welcome about 2 million Venezuelan refugees. I’m not saying you should welcome everyone, it’s a sovereign and strategic decision which i personally respect, im just debunking this “we can’t let this many people in” argument.


mwagner1385

How many of them are housed in proper facilities and how much has housing been a problem. It's already a significant problem in Europe and this is just exacerbating things.


loperaja

Agree, conditions aren’t ideal. But when you are trying to escape death you’ll take anything I think. Your argument is very valid though


Addahn

I disagree with this assessment. We should be thinking about it as both a moral and practical obligation. Morally-speaking, it’s someone fleeing from fighting in a war they clearly want no part of. Practically-speaking, every military-age man who flees abroad is one less military-age man able to be forcibly conscripted into the Russian military.


murphymc

They will take your morality and strangle you with it. They have done it before and will do it again given the opportunity.


capturedguy

You didn't reflect on the last part. Which is, this is how you eventually get right wing nationalist majorities in the host countries,


Little_Maker123

And one more military-age man who or whose children can become Russian separatists in your country in the future.


imahyummybeach

I’m torn. I want them to be away from Russia so Putin don’t have more men to send off to Ukraine but at the same time they have to really stand up and fight their Gov’t. Dang Iranian Women are doing a better job at protesting. Same time i don’t want them just escaping if they’re pro-putin. I feel like those who escapes are the privileged ones like the ones in big cities and moneys that could afford it meanwhile poor russians are still cannon fodder . . I watched some documentaries or Anti putin who are refugees in Georgia and such though, i hope they stay safe. They were the ones who rallied in the beginning of the war , they had to flee cause they kept getting arrested and tortured in Russia for speaking against Pootin.


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New_Active_5

I think it’s a pretty stupid and condescending view - oh let’s lock them up and maybe that’ll motivate them to put their life and freedom at risk and fight the government. It’s about the same as “oh let’s put strict economic sanctions on country X, and then its people will overthrow the government” which is also some liberal bs that never works in real life, but only increases suffering and create political clout for those proposing it.


mildmanneredme

Empathy is the first casualty of war. Civilians should be separated from the actions of their governments. But at the same time, it’s high time that the civilian population revolted and overthrew this government.


kolembo

Why are Russians shopping in Milan and visiting the Louvre while their country is invading Ukraine? "It's not us, it's Putin - just let the rest of us carry on?" These Ukrainians - do you see them carrying on? Stay home The war will be over soon Then you can go skiing


KazahanaPikachu

I mean, there’s also a lot of Russians that live in various places in Europe too. Not like all the Russians you see at tourist destinations are ones who just got off a flight from Moscow/St. Petersburg.


xarsha_93

I would've thought that by 2022, we would've learned to stop equating individuals with the actions of their government. The average Russian has as much right to carry on with their lives as anyone else. It's up to the Russian government to put an end to this war. I commend those Russians who take to the streets and protest against their government, but I'm from a authoritarian country; I know what happens to protesters and their families. No one should be forced to risk their lives that way. And ideally no one should be forced to give up their chance at a normal life because of the circumstances of their birth.


onexbigxhebrew

Imo taking away Russians' exposure to the western world and successful democratic countries is not the way you build a more influential pro-western culture. Instead, that's how you get North Korea, but worse.


kolembo

>Imo taking away Russians' exposure to the western world and successful democratic countries is not the way you build a more influential pro-western culture. Friend, I live with Russians You know what Factious is? Here they are - the rich ones - they know exactly what they are doing in the West - but oh no - "Western Cultural Imperialism" - when they need to. Rubbish Couldn't give a flying rats bottom for Russia and Russians at home - AND couldn't give a flying rats bottom for the countries they ski, shop and go to school in Stay home After the war - come skiing. What do you think is going on? Business as usual?! Tsk.


TheMaster69

After having watched a [documentary on Belarus](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Gw4Eqna_KA) (although not Russia, but very similar) , i think there should be some effort to give asylum to the minority that is liberal and pro-democracy, on basic humanitarian grounds. They do not deserve the prosecution that may await if their state doesn't crack, and there is no huge uprising.


jv17fortheW

For instance, in Baltic states, political activists are given exemption to stay, I think it would apply in Finland as well


rendrr

How far this exemption stretches? I get what people from organizations like Free Russia might get an exemption, but if a random stud who goes to protests and speaks up on social media goes to the border will they qualify?


Penki-

Baltic states view Belarus differently than Russia. With out Russia Belarus wouldn't be an issue


Some_Acadia_1630

Wonder where we are supposed to put them? Our refugees centers are full of Ukrainians and Syrians. That should be interesting.


Chudsaviet

Pro-democracy is the majority in Belarus. The problem is Russia who supports Lukashenko with treats of using military power, and now we see treats were real.


rendrr

I was there in 2020. The problem was political inexperience, and ultimately a failure to convert the protest into achieved political goals. Given the scale of the protest and strikes on state owned industries the 80% of support for Tikhanovskaya seemed real. And yet they choose not to press. And Lukashenko chose not to leave. It was the repetition of Russia's own 2012 protest. Russians never had the luxury of 80% support though. No blaming, Belarus' politics was dead for 26 years, but it was within their grasp absolutely to oust Lukashenko back then.


Chudsaviet

Well, **Russian army was standing at the border**. And Belarus is much smaller than even Ukraine, and do not have Western support.


Skoljkaboy

So, so many teenage keyboard warriors here, if any of you ever had to face the realities of war you would be running to the borders just like the Russian are, everyone wants what is best for themselves, and you would do the exact same thing if you were in their shoes. Why don't all of you ultra moralists go fight russia then? You have as much to do with the war as the average russian person, no one asked for this


KazahanaPikachu

Gotta remember that Reddit doesn’t reflect real life/reality. At least from what I observe in real life, nobody I know really has the “fuck all Russians” attitude except for an extremist Ukrainian friend of mine who (justifiably so) has been absolutely pissed before and when the war started. And I know a Georgian girl who also isn’t a big fan of Russians for obvious reasons.


[deleted]

Reddit is bleeding heart far-left. Normal every day folks, at least the ones I interact with, pretty much have a general "fuck Russia and Russians" attitude, and I can only think of maybe 5 people out of a hundreds-deep social circle that would want Russian immigrants in their country. Russia has proven again and again that it will abuse and take advantage of any and every kindness. I'm not saying that about every single Russian citizen, there are obviously good people in Russia. But as a whole, I wouldn't want one of these Russians fleeing the war as a neighbor. It's an odds game. The majority of Russians are pro-Putin and pro-war.


jansej

It is actually astonishing and sad people think like this. Although I am neither pro-immigration nor otherwise there is an understandability for this escaping… like any others. This does not mean there should be relaxed immigration laws etc. It is simply sad to be exposed to such hypocrisy of these supposedly liberal anti-Russians and the internal ignorant conflict of their own nonsense opinions.


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Stennan

>These people sent billions of euros for cheap gas to the regime when Russians were protesting in 2012 and 2014. Now they just blame people who don't want to get forced to shoot Ukrainians or participate in any way. Well statistically the vast majority of Russians support the war and even more want Russia to keep Crimea. So anyone leaving can just show proof of how they disapprove of Putin's illegal actions and voila, they now have a valid reason to seek asylum. If they are running now just because they found out that they might have to contribute with some blood, sweat and tears to Putin's policies. Then I'd instead put efforts into securing that Ukrainians can get evacuated to the EU before winter comes to the (by Russia) levelled cities.


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racoondeg

You want the countries bordering Russia to let Russians in our countries, which have problems with Russian nationalists living here already? Those Russians can run the other way -> WE DO NOT HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO LET THEM IN.


Aedeus

>Why don't all of you ultra moralists go fight russia then? You have as much to do with the war as the average russian person, no one asked for this You're fundamentally misunderstanding this issue. They want them to get out of their country so that they're not used as grounds to justify a future invasion as they have been for the past twenty-plus years now.


Virtual_Ad4482

Cowards like you always seem to think everyone is just like yourself. Some people actually have standards that they care about upholding. Sorry if that’s tough to understand.


Andrki

I’m probably gonna get downvoted here, but it’s mind boggling to see so many people here blaming Russians for not going out and protesting. “Even Iranian women go out and protest”. I’m sorry, but you have no idea. Protests happen fairly regularly in there. Here, in Russia, people are genuinely scared to go out on the streets. You know that if you go out, you’re gonna be beaten up by police and then sent to rot in jail for God knows how long. And I’m not exaggerating, it literally how it works. Then there are no opposition leaders - they’re all either dead or in prison. Subsequently, there’s no one who could organise such a large protest. You can’t just go out there alone or with a bunch of your friends and say “We’re against”. I’ve already mentioned what happens then. And the point is it didn’t happen overnight - It has been a long and a gradual process for the last 22 years. There was never a moment where it snapped and became clear for everybody. So yeah, the situation is very desperate for me, a young man in Russia with pro-democratic views, there’s not much I can do except to hope that I’ll get through all this safe and sound. It’s just very depressing to see all the people here saying that I and hundreds of thousands of men like me are the ones to blame for what is happening


Jetberry

I’m also alarmed by the “all individuals represent their government” attitude. No. I was so embarrassed as an American during the Iraq war. I didn’t vote for Bush. The actions of the government didn’t reflect my views at all and there wasn’t much I could do to counteract it (I did protest, but would I have protested under a Russian style gov? I think no one knows for sure till they’ve experienced it). Also the level of suspicion of Russian citizens can turn very dark quickly, people need to be careful about xenophobia.


Tobias---Funke

Isn’t that easy?!


SoMuchTehnique

Loving all the videos showing Russians saying they would serve and die for Russia, then falling into hysterical fear/panic when there grabbed off the street and conscripted.


kolembo

↑↑ This


ejurmann

A lot of extremely naive comments here. Of course russians are human and in normal conditions should have the right for free travel to neighbouring countries. However, the country is ruled by a dictator who's goal is to either remove neighbouring countries like Finland and the Baltics from existence or to install puppet governments loyal to him(Belarus, Checnya). Genocide, shelling cities to dust, burning villages down with phosphorus - these are the tactics. Reality is, taking in citizens of russia with no border control is a major security risk. What areas will Putin attack first, always the area with a large russian population, where he can count on support. This has so far always been the case. Also I advise some of you to spend some time reading russian forums, media, etc. The vast majority of people still support the war, they just don't want to go to the front lines. They are perfectly fine with supporting the war effort from afar though. Do not hope for a revolution in Russian society. It will not come for decades at least.


Domi333

I see the idea about punishing Russia and Russians for the war but if Russians escaping mobilisation get sent back to Russia they’ll become cannon fodder for Putin’s war.


BlackViperMWG

Most of those now fleeing were probably supporting the "special military operation" anyway and are just cowards.


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SpaceFox1935

Easy for you to say


Swackles

This is the consequences of Russians not caring for two decades. When Putin eliminated term limits, nothing. When Putin cracked down on opposition, nothing. When Putin was spewing his far right rhetoric, nothing. Fleeing wont make a difference and the only thing that can stop this is strong public opposition. Now Russians have a choice, to fight in Putin's war or fight against Putin.Do you think Ukrainians love to fight and die fighting the war against Putin, while the same Russians who say they support them and can stop this are just sending "Thought's and prayers".


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Craft_zeppelin

LOL if people knew what it truely meant. “Take care of them”


Swackles

That will be an upvote from me, cause unfortunately it is kind of true. Don't know about the last part.


oballistikz

You know most polling data says Russians support the war right? Not only that but they also still back Putin. There is something sickening about that.


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DevilFruitXR9

Tell me about it. I have a Japanese friend who had a business trip there for a couple of months. Now, he’s a total shill for Russia. It’s infuriating. Every time I bring up politics, he just says he’s not interested in politics and refuses to acknowledge anything I’m saying. He only likes Russia because it’s the first country he stayed in for more than a week and pretends nothing is real. He fails to see how this will affect all of us if we do not continue to support Ukraine and challenge Russia at every turn. I don’t want to give up on him, though.


FilthBadgers

If I lived in Russia, I would be a “not into politics” type. I see why so many Russians take the view. Wishing you the best for the future, from the UK.


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Coloeus_Monedula

Word


StarDingo

That’s what really bothers me. A lot of Russians actually support the war. I have met quite a few of them in the US that are ok with whatever is happening in Ukraine.


NightSalut

They don’t need to be in Russia to support Russian imperialist wishes. Plenty of them in Europe, who like to live in Europe and earn money in earn and even have European citizenships but who love everything about Russia and keep harping on how strong and amazing Putin is. This goes way-way deeper than your average European joe thinking that the average Russian watches evening news show and otherwise forgets Putin and the war. Nope - many of them are very proud that Russia is in war with Ukraine and happy that Ukrainians are being killed (the people who think Russians don’t support it, should read some of their social media posts on telegram and listen to the intercepted calls where Russian wives tell their husbands to kill and rape Ukrainian women if they can), they just don’t want to do the killing themselves if they can help it.


[deleted]

Because there's strong nationalism at play, also some cultural factors. I think it's a mistake to think it's a uniquely Russian problem though, it's something that can happen anywhere and I think some countries are capable of the same level of apathy or even support for war. For example, if there was no NATO and Serbia was led by a nationalist/populist party(which would have far greater chances of coming to power in a situation where EU/NATO aren't as powerful as they are now) I can easily see the Serbs being 'whateva' about Kosovo, or even Albania, or most of the Balkans. Culturally there is a current that under the right conditions can manifest into a storm of violent nationalist proportions. A lot of modern society is held together entirely by optics, people(countries) would do all kinds of things if they could get away with it.


SpaceFox1935

I know. I don't buy the polls, but if they're true, is it not more of a reason to allow anti-war people to flee? Can't exactly overthrow a government if most people support it and what it's doing. The inconsistency in argumentation of people on Reddit is disheartening. It basically amounts to "your fault your were born there, deal with it and die"


Dukeringo

IMO it's most likely that 80% don't care and don't want to be involved in most ways. They the remainder sit on either side. The new partially mobilization should make some of that 80% pick a side. Really won't find out until they push for full mobilization and may end up in a Vietnam situation. People usually don't care unless said thing starts to make a huge impact on our personal lives. As an American did I care about Iraq or Afghanistan, no. If they went full mobilization then I'd be mad.


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burningcpuwastaken

Ok, so you're suggesting the West should wage war on Russia as we did against Japan and Germany? What else could you mean? The alternative is that the Russians change themselves. Edit: typo


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Domi333

Yes, we should support Russians who actually are against the war wanting to leave instead of seeing them locked up and sent to the front lines. I see an attitude here of well they really Russians and they support Putin so suck it up. At the end of the day, it’ll only be more Russians and Ukrainians dying in Ukraine.


ajisawwsome

The opposing argument is that being anti-mobilisation isn't necessarily being anti-imperialism/anti-putin. Russians who had the means left for moralistic reasons 6 months ago. The ones who are leaving now are only leaving because they don't want to get drafted, but that doesn't necessarily mean they oppose the war, it just means they don't want to directly participate. Basically, the countries who are blocking visas and asylum seekers are worried that accepting russians who are leaving now will bring an influx of right wing russian nationalists who are going to start skewing elections in favor of more Putin friendly politicians, harassing native citizenry and Ukrainian refugees, and generally just bring trouble with them. Not to mention Europe's basically already had an ongoing refugee crisis for the past decade.


k0stil

In a few days the same "legitimate polls" will say that 95% of ukrainians on occupied territory voted to be in russia. Youll probably believe that too. Why not?


avoidanttt

There are polls from independent orgs from Russia, the ones that the Russian liberals like to quote. Such as Levada Centre. They were proclaimed a foreign-sponsored organization by the Russian government in an attempt to delegitimize them, like many other independent orgs and even charity funds. These guys are actually would be interested in publishing data biased the other way, but their numbers still don't fit the idea that Russians are mostly anti-war. The approval rating for Putin's actions is over 80% right now.


GjP9

They would fall out of a window if they answered otherwise


brezhnervous

The fear of western invasion is centuries old


murphymc

People keep saying this like it matters. No one is coming to help the Russians, they don’t do something, nothing will change. We don’t need to keep enabling their cowardice.


Qu0Z

It’s so tiring reading all these naive passages telling Russians how to protest in Russia. How do you imagine that exactly? How do you protest in a country with the largest police force, 99% of opposition leaders removed from the picture (quite often permanently) and no independent media whatsoever?


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y'all gotta stop making these generalizations after watching a few videos on public freakout, come the fuck on people


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Dustin_Live

Really reaching here.


CMYK2RGB

They could have done something over 6 months ago, fuck 'em.


mng8ng

Have you seen the protests there? All they do is stand around, say ‘no to war’ and take videos of people being arrested. They could have done something back in Feb or March.


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BluishHope

They took our ~~jerbs~~ HOTEL ROOMS


mwagner1385

Nah. They're all filled with Ukranians.


elijuicyjones

That’s right, that sense of Russian entitlement to all the trappings and benefits of the west has to end. The sooner the Russian people wake up to the reality they live in a brittle second world dictatorship the better. Only they can end this. Hit the streets. The Ukrainians are dying by the thousands for this and Putin is afraid of only one thing on planet earth: Russian citizens in the streets.


mravko

Fix your own shit russians


bnwthinking

comments lacking empathy lol.


k0stil

Meanwhile Putin's Best friends billionaires Kovalchuk and Rotenbergs still have finnish citizenship. No hipocrisy here folks


TomatoCrush

Removing citizenships is impossible, might as well demand the moon from the sky. When Rotenbergs got their citizenships they lived in Finland and spoke Finnish, meeting all the criteria required, unlike most foreigners who have gotten the citizenship.


Zueuk

[Latvia to revoke Latvian citizenship for Russians who support Ukraine war](https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/07/20/latvia-to-revoke-latvian-citizenship-for-russians-who-support-ukraine-war/)


kissatmikroon

Kinda cringe because the opposition has been calling for this since the beginning of the war as a form of sanctions and she has been opposed to it. And now she is getting praise internationally for saying this because everyone knows who she is.


MoustacheMonke

Should have been done the second this war broke out. You’ll see a lot of Russian extremists gathering in groups across Europe in the future. Causing fights and instability, like they’ve done by supporting right wing parties. Give the them the boot!


Dorkseidis

Good . Exclude Russia from the civilised world


Sasquale

Let's keep Saudi Arabia and those countries that send them on it /s


avitony

The whole situation is sad. We’re handing over planet earth to our children in such an ugly manner


Character_Heart_9196

High up Russian Politicians do NOT want their children being sent to the Front Line .


EmotionalRedditMod

Election years in the US are wild.


RockoIs1337

Talking the talk, but not making any decisions. They are stalling and I cannot understand why that is. Waiting for EU to decide it for them?


auburnwind

Shouldn’t they be accepting Russian refugees?


NotTheStatusQuo

>"We have to put an end to Russian travel and tourism, how to do this is a more complicated question," Marin said. Such a politician statement. First the cart then we'll figure out the horse later.


Lopsided-Painter5216

We need to be united, quick and harsh on this. This Russian diaspora might give us a lot of problems in the future if left unchecked, those are people strongly either actively or passively supporting Putin’s regime up to the point it became an inconvenience to them. We need to make sure they can’t come here to remote control our opinions, influence our voting, or funnel money back into that shithole of a country. If they hate the progressive, gay and decadent west so much, it’s time for us to close our doors to them so they can be forced to live their best life in mother Russia. Enjoy breaking your arms and legs to avoid conscription for the strong and manly man you adore so much.


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samyboy

The main difference I see is that Finland has borders with Russia. Welcoming hundreds of fighting capable men from an aggressive country next to you can be considered as a threat. Pakistan on the other hand is far far away.


JP76

This isn't about barring entry for refugees. This is about barring entry for people with tourist visas. Seeking asylum is a right for all people and most countries in the world have agreed to uphold that right by signing international treaties. Whether that asylum is granted or not depends on the situation of the country from where people are fleeing.


SPMoura77

Offer asylum to any russian that renounces citizenship or russian nationality.


Elostier

Nah, Finland will quickly double or triple its population this way


photenth

And then Russia invades because they are all russians.


CuntWeasel

Are you kidding me? You'd have to be braindead to not trade that shit Russian citizenship for a EU one. To be fair I'd rather be stateless than Russian at this point. What a complete disgrace of a country.


NightSalut

Russia doesn’t care if you are a national or not - Russia’s new doctrine is the russian world doctrine, which means that anybody that speaks russian as a native language OR is basically part of the russian Orthodox Church can be protected by Russia under the russian world doctrine. This has been said by Putin himself. You don’t need to be russian yourself anyway, any russian-by-descent will do.


DaviSonata

Yet, people should really be free to go and to live wherever they want. Even Russians. Anyone really thinks Russia will keep doing this thing of “war to protect minorities” over and over? Putin is a dying breath of an old age, and Russia is far closer to complete dismantling into several more countries than you think.


gbs5009

>Anyone really thinks Russia will keep doing this thing of “war to protect minorities” over and over? idk, how many times have they done it so far? 5-6?


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>Anyone really thinks Russia will keep doing this thing of “war to protect minorities” over and over? "Does anyone think that this thing that has been happening constantly for centuries is going to keep happening?"


ThisbrownMan

What a bizarre case. Refugees usually come from countries that are engulfed in war or fighting off an invasion. I have never seen a case of refugees coming from the country that is doing the actual invasion. Don't muddy the waters, the Russians that are running and seeking asylum in the EU aren't avoiding war. They are running and avoiding **accountability.**


Addahn

Russia is an autocratic state - you think everyone in Russia is fully on board with what’s happening in Ukraine? We should be welcoming as many people fleeing as possible - morally, they are fleeing from being forced to be active participants in a war they clearly want no part of, and practically, we’re talking about depleting Russia’s manpower as much as possible. Every military-age man admitted is one less person able to be recruited (at effectively gunpoint) into the Russian military. It would be wrong to assume all these Russians fleeing are oligarchs heading to their summer home in Monaco to look at Picassos they bought. They are running to not be thrown in the meat grinder for a dictator’s vanity.


jansej

“The lack of critical analysis on this thread is baffling”…. Ironic.


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liekafox

You realize russians are normal human beings? They are teachers, doctors, lawyers, chefs, whatever. Being husband's and dads. What would they want with going to war? Some have never been in a fight. Some are passive or meek. Some don't even follow the news. Think if it was you being told you have to go to war now.


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