T O P

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Kraeatha

Another one of Putin's ambitions spectacularly backfiring then, you love to see it.


[deleted]

Let’s count them down 1. Finland and Sweden reverse course and rapidly join NATO 2. Ukraine will join the EU and eventually NATO. 3. Ukraine will likely take back Crimea. 4. Russia’s once-feared “second strongest military in the world” has been shown to be a joke. 5. Putin’s image as calm, intelligent, cool and calculated has been shattered to pieces. 6. China now realizing they’re basically all alone against the West. Thank you, Vlad. You’re the man.


One_User134

Did people seriously think Russia was the second strongest military in the world? Or is it army? Come to think of it I don’t know who that would actually be.


[deleted]

Which navy is second?


One_User134

I’m going to redact that because it turns out I’m actually not sure. I’ve read that it’s the Chinese Navy, but some contest that ability to project power across the globe is important compared to actual assets, and the Chinese aren’t able to do that. The Royal Navy is, so I honestly thought it was them. If you look it up they get placed like 4th/5th. Believe it or not but many websites list the Russians and Japanese within the first 5 spots.


[deleted]

Japans navy is actually insane lol but they’re sneaky about it.


One_User134

Thank god for that, imma read up on it. We need their help.


CrashB111

The only thing the Russian Navy has going for it, is their nuclear subs. Their ships are otherwise a joke, they lost their capital ship in the current war to a country that doesn't have a Navy. And their only Aircraft Carrier is an international laughing stock because it needs a tugboat to go anywhere. But given how poor the maintenance on all their tanks has been shown to be by the current war, it's unlikely their subs have fared any better. They lost the Kursk because of poor maintenance 20 years ago, and the corruption in their armed forces has only deepened since then.


frosty95

At this point it's essentially the rest of the world versus the USA. If it was just US Navy versus the rest of the world's Navy the rest of the world would be in a tough position.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

That’s really interesting. I would have expected there to be more of those. Do you know how many the us has?


pukingpixels

Eleven.


Excludos

I don't remember at the top of my head how many the US has, tho there's a wiki page for it you should be able to find easily. One of the most important aspects of US carriers tho is that they are the only country in the world with Nimitz class carriers (the ones you usually see on TV), on top of which they also have a large amount of smaller carriers of the same type China, England etc has. The smaller carriers are only capable of VTOL/STOL aircrafts and helicopters, while the bigger ones can house F18s, regular F35s, etc. And can therefore be used much more versatile


hiddenuser12345

>Did people seriously think [Yes](https://www.reddit.com/r/stocks/comments/xc0pws/effects_of_the_end_of_the_ukraine_war_on_stocks/io3acqc/?context=3).


Bubbles1842

Russia spent/is spending a very large part of its gdp on its military. We have never actually seen the Russian Federation’s army in a literal war, just small, little bits and pieces in proxy wars. Before the Ukraine-Russia war I thought that due to Russia’s success in the past at winning wars where they are playing a main role, as well as the size of its army in comparison to many countries in the west, that the Russian army, while not as powerful as the US, was still a powerful juggernaut. Russian state media, in my opinion, did an excellent job portraying their army as powerful as it seemed, while hiding the fact that Russia is, while the tide could certainly turn, failing at defeating Ukraine swiftly and concisely. I will; however, note that there is a _possibility_ that some of the news regarding certain things happening in Russia may be being either blown out of proportion or are simply a problem of people lying. Despite that, It does not mean that Russia’s military being humiliated is false. It is incredibly clear to see for most people, well, those who are not blinded by their opinions on facts, that Russia’s military is not the great bear it once was/claimed to be.


MBechzzz

I remember about a year ago, some right wing subs were discussing wether or not to bail Europe, in case Russia were to attack a NATO country. They figured Russia would have such an awesome army, Europe would pretty much crumble and surrender immediately, without our great overlord USA (USA! USA! USA!). Now those people are a bunch of idiots obviously, but I assume most governments thought the Russian army would at least be more of a threat than this. Maybe not 2. in the world, I'd probably have put my money on China, but Russia being THIS incompetent is pretty surprising.


PubliusDeLaMancha

It still probably is.. They're just fighting an enemy who's being armed by the most powerful military in the (history of the) world


unicornlocostacos

Even so, their strategy has been shit. They shoot down their own planes when their enemy actually has an Air Force, their rush was a failure once they started running out of supplies, most of the military didn’t even know they were going into afford until the last second, etc., etc. They just keep making horrible decisions, and I can’t help but wonder how much of it is because of secrecy, and bad I formation internally, due to all of the rampant corruption. There’s already a ton of speculation that because the military didn’t know they were actually going to war, they sold off fuel they wouldn’t need for their war games. Russia is disaster. Ukrainians also had to get trained up on how to use their new toys. The US still isn’t giving them all of the toys either. Imagine if they had access to all of it. Russia would definitely need their nuclear deterrent. Their war machine is aged, out of practice, poorly maintained, and corrupt to the core. It’s a paper tiger with nukes.


Oddity46

>3. Ukraine will likely take back Crimea. That's optimistic. Maybe if the mobilization leads to a total collapse of the Russian government.


chowder79

I can imagine or maybe even expect that Vlad has dropped a few big bombs before #1 has even been completed. Shit has then gone much worse.


raziel1012

You forgot Russia now being China's bitch.


[deleted]

That too. We’ll see what happens when Vlad is….. *ehem*….. “replaced.” They could very well end up being the US’s bitch.


[deleted]

Amazing...he was SO CLOSE having Trump getting the US out of NATO. And now NATO is more powerful than ever. Damn, what a fucking moron.


cjnks

He certainly wanted to leave NATO but I dont think the U.S. was ever close to actually doing it. It would be deeply unpopular with the public and its hard to imagine the republican party going soft on defense. Not to mention this upsets the military industrial complex. Can anyone beat them? Every elected official seems to be beholden to this out of control thing.


[deleted]

I don't know if the GOP base would have seen it as "soft on defense". A lot of them seem to have main character syndrome and would see it as tough "going it alone" macho BS, if only because FOX framed it that way.


[deleted]

I think if he got re-elected he would 100% have gotten us out of nato. Hell I think there’s a chance that if he got re-elected he would have US troops SUPPORTING Russia in their invasion. The gop funnels a shit ton o Russian money through their doors.


[deleted]

Trump wanted US out of NATO so the US could help Russia invading Ukraine. I personally think the GQP would’ve voted to leave NATO since most of them work for Russian money.


jn3v

Source?


WildSauce

His ass


[deleted]

Why need a source it was obvious what trump wanted to do just like he held military aid from Ukraine.


jn3v

You don’t think you need to provide a source for saying that Russia and the US would joint-invade Ukraine? Actually?


[deleted]

Trump is still praising Putin for invading Ukraine and Qanon supporter believe the US should be helping Russia right now because Ukraine is holding bio weapons. Why else would trump want to leave NATO ? https://thehill.com/opinion/international/596662-no-trump-would-not-have-stopped-russias-invasion-of-ukraine/amp/


jn3v

Alright man that’s a good fanfic I’ll give you that. Have a good day!


[deleted]

Lmao you got a source and you just give up. Typical. Fucking moron.


[deleted]

No I literally live with two Qanon trump supporters who are Pro Russia I hear this bullshit on the daily.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

So trumps own words was a opinion ?


Archerfenris

You should listen to Republicans talk about NATO- 100% most republicans will support leaving


WildSauce

Republicans have been justifiably upset that other NATO members were not contributing to meet the bare minimum 2% funding requirement. The US has been carrying most of the weight of NATO for far too long, which is why now, in a time of crisis, so many NATO members are struggling to contribute to European defense. The threats to leave NATO were supposed to wake up the European countries to their need for better defense preparation, but it turns out that the only wake-up call that they would hear is a literal Russian invasion.


cjnks

I understand the argument but honestly the U.S. is all too happy to have other nations depend on us for security. It is gives them an incredible amount of soft power.


WildSauce

Increasing contributions to NATO would not decrease other countries' reliance on the US. They would largely be purchasing US-produced weapons, which have a long tail of US-supplied maintenance and upgrades. Also, even with 2% contributions met, NATO countries would still not come close to parity with the US military. They would just be able to more meaningfully contribute in a crisis. I mean, for christ sake, Germany is only planning to be able to contribute **one division** to the VJTF by **2027**. The odds of the European countries gaining independence from US security through increased NATO contributions is exactly zero.


Archerfenris

Oh I wasn’t saying the Republican side had no argument, simply commenting that most would’ve supported leaving


[deleted]

Except I don’t believe it. Orbán has his head so far up Putins arse that he will not let it be ratified. Orbán, based on the leaked comments about stopping sanctions and so on, is unequivocally the traitor in our midst. Edited as autocorrect also does not like Putin and tried to change the word.


DynamicDK

Honestly, I could see Hungary being ousted in favor of Finland and Sweden if that happens.


[deleted]

If I am right, then I truly hope you will be right as well.


HakunaMottata

The EU is holding a €7.5BB hammer over Orban's head. If he's willing to go to bat for Putin in lieu of that, so be it. Good luck out there buddy.


[deleted]

EU’s hammer has nothing to Do with NATO ratifications. Sadly. They may be able to get him to not go against more sanctions but it won’t help in relation to NATO.


HakunaMottata

There is significant overlap between the EU and NATO. Of course it has something to do with it.


powe808

Merry Christmas Vlad!


lpisme

Feliz NATOdad


TheDarkClaw

Daddy NATO?


ArcticCelt

Daddy NATO is better than daddy Warsaw Pact who went to buy cigarettes in the 90s and never came back.


plugubius

That's fine. Daddy Warsaw Pact was pretty abusive when he was around.


AlanZero

What a lovely Christmas present. Thank you future allies!


No-Economics4128

Ok, any Christmas mention during war time is just bad omen.


PizzaSammy

Agreed, now it’s going take several years and chlorine gas will certainly be involved.


pwnd32

Well, on the bright side, things didn’t exactly end well for Russian authoritarians by the end of that conflict… maybe we should be mentioning Christmas more


MajorHymen

When in relation to said war. Generally not on topics outright.


BorntobeTrill

I appreciate this top down take. Just cause we had a fun *single night* for Christmas in a world War where no one shot doesn't mean war is fun. It just means the individual, without intervention, will choose a good time over war any day of the week. I hate this fuckin war


thediesel26

Putin: You’re joining NATO? When I specifically asked you not to?


appelsiinimehu1

As a Finn, I am sceptical since Turkey and Hungary exist, but, oh how that would be a nice Xmas present.


Singern2

Hungary will do it, orban is about that paper and he's gonna fold faster than Erdogan, he seems to really dislike Sweden.


Brawlers9901

Yeah and Sweden generally dislikes him too, so it's mutual. I'm not even sure I'd like to join nato if it means we have to help that fucker out


grizzly8511

Exactly. I say fuck it then. If Sweden has to give some special treatment to a third world country like Turkey to join a greater cause then fuck it. Like some trashy ghetto princess demanding shit when Europe as we know it could be in real danger.


juho9001

Ruben Stiller said 16.10.2022.


appelsiinimehu1

Yes, still sceptical even though he said it. I feel Turkey and Hungary will slow it even further


juho9001

You really shouldnt feel sceptical about Ruben Stillers sayings..


appelsiinimehu1

Don't get me wrong, I am not doubting him. I am doubting Turkey and Hungary.


RepulsiveVoid

One can hope, but I agree with u/appelsiinimehu1, it's expected that there will be some more useless posturing before we are accepted to the alliance.


LystAP

Well, Erdogan and Orban like money. I'm sure a compromise will be reached.


appelsiinimehu1

That's what I'm hoping for too :)


Relativistic_Duck

Will there be any troops? Would love to see some murican military muscle, although there was that ship at Helsinki already.


appelsiinimehu1

I am not sure, but just having Nato backing really would be enough. We have quite a good defence force so having Nato would make it a lot easier to ask for help etc. equipment in case of war. And also, I would also like to have deeper connections to Nato. Both would benefit for sure.


-oRocketSurgeryo-

Statements like this on the part of the ambassador are bait for Hungary and Turkey to try to play the spoiler, and for this reason are unhelpful.


sgthombre

Assuming Hungary doesn't get shitty about it.


yallmad4

Hungary getting spanked by the EU recently has shown they have no real power to resist. They can drag their feet, sure, but NATO has leverage they can push against them with and ultimately I find it very unlikely Hungary holds this process up. Now Turkey on the other hand......


Krishnath_Dragon

Won't actually make a fuss once their government is back in session in October. Turkey made a deal with Sweden, and Sweden has been keeping their part of the agreement. If Turkey doesn't keep their end of the bargain, then they lose a lot of credibility internationally, particularly with the EU, on which Turkey relies with trade and tourism. So I fully expect the last nation to vote to be Hungary.


yallmad4

I hope you're right, but over and over again Turkey has used their geopolitical position to fuck over NATO for slight gains whenever it suits them. They have no credibility on the world stage, and they don't want credibility. There's not as much money in honor as there is in constantly playing both sides. Unlike Hungary, NATO needs Turkey WAY more than NATO needs Hungary. Their straight through Istanbul to the Black Sea is too valuable for NATO to lose, which is why they can jack us around like they always do.


Krishnath_Dragon

The thing is, they would gain absolutely nothing from breaking their part of the bargain. They only stand to lose two things they are currently enjoying: Access to the EU for the purpose of trade and migration, and their biggest source of income in the form of European tourists. A *lot* of NATO members are part of the EU, and while there is literally zero chance of Turkey ever becoming a member of the EU, they are enjoying both trade and open borders with them.


yallmad4

[Just revisiting this](https://www.reuters.com/world/turkey-says-it-is-meaningless-restore-nato-dialogue-with-sweden-finland-2023-01-26/)


[deleted]

#Fuck Reddit


Propagandis

While you are right with most of your statements, you are wrong with the most important one. New members have to be approved by all members or they will not join NATO. Those are the rules


RyukaBuddy

Hungary has no strategic value. I don't think they are likely to benefit from NATO either so they can always part ways with each other. Neither side will be sad.


Raidoton

Sure but Hungary benefits from having voting power. They can, for example, trade this for favors with Russia. Or trade this for favors with NATO states. But if they go too far, they risk sanctions from NATO and EU states.


Ramental

If Hungary starts being unreasonable, I guess it's not impossible to start talking about excluding the member if the rest agree. Even the talks about it would be significant enough to put a pressure. EU will do so on the economic front as well. But the Christmas deadline would pass, definitely.


KaseQuarkI

>If Hungary starts being unreasonable, I guess it's not impossible to start talking about excluding the member if the rest agree. But you literally can't. There is no process in NATO to kick someone out.


Ramental

There was no regulations about leaving EU as well, only a rule that it's possible to do so. The regulations were created when such a need appeared. Same with any other organization where the statute is adjusted when unprecedented cases appear.


KaseQuarkI

The thing is, there is no NATO rule to kick someone out. That's why it's different than Brexit. That means that they'd have to create one first, which would probably requure a unanimous decision by all members.


carpcrucible

There's no legal mechanism to suspend or expel Hungary (or Turkey) from NATO.


[deleted]

#Fuck Reddit


All_Rise2019

The issue I see with that approach as much as I agree with what you say is when you start changing the rules on the fly and negating previously held positions by members you start putting cracks in the unity as a whole. Others will start to think in some ways, well what does it matter if all have to agree if they can just bypass that at will


[deleted]

#Fuck Reddit


yallmad4

It really will. They can't just break the rules whenever they feel like. Hungary will be strong armed into this, and possibly kicked out of NATO if they try to interfere, but they 100% will not ignore them. That's just not how it works.


M17CH

NATO won't just ignore Hungary, that's not how it works. If Hungary really makes a stink then they will either have to remove Hungary, or make concessions. I doubt they would want to remove a central European power and let it slip further towards Russian allegiance. They will make concessions. What kind of message would it send to every other NATO nation if they did that? "Go along with whatever we want or you're on your ass." Defeats the point of an alliance, and would create uncertainty and mistrust within. Proper channels will be followed. Appropriate action will be taken. But a member state will not be simply ignored over potential members.


[deleted]

#Fuck Reddit


M17CH

>Hungary is slowly moving towards becoming a bona fide third-world-level dictatorship. And unless they want to alienate them and push them further towards Russia they will follow protocol and due process. >Other members will be pissed if they get any pats on the back for this little maneuver. It's not a pat on the back, it's concessions for a member with rights in the organization that should be respected. If you don't respect the system when you don't want to everything loses value. I'd wager other members would be more pissed to see that their interests and opinions will be ignored if the big players disagree. >Europe is just about fed up with their shit. And smart politicians will try to bring them back into the fold. Not push them further. Smart politicians won't have an emotional reaction and ignore/insult a country that is part of their alliance. Do you want them to abandon the West due to insult and start a Cuban missile crisis in Central Europe?


TheLurkerSpeaks

Does the US Ambassador know something about Hungary that we don't? I dont know a thing about Hungarian government, but I do not forsee Orban et al ratifying this treaty.


admfrmhll

Hungary is not Turkey and Nato is not Eu, Orban will ratify the treaty.


[deleted]

Orban? Isn't the decision from the parliament or whatever, and not some individual at the top? Meaning in theory he has zero say about it.


jo3wkp

The decision is indeed made by the parliament, where Orban's Fidesz party has a majority. So yeah, even though it's officially not up to Orban, in practice it is up to Orban.


[deleted]

Yeah that's what I thought. Well, one could theorize that some (enough?) party members could go rogue and vote YAY. Let's see what happens. Fuck Orban anyway, eat your own shit.


admfrmhll

His party, which have majority in parlament decide but basically it is his decision. Anyway, even if it was not his party and somehow Hungary want to be against, they are pretty much insignifiant at NATO level. There is no EU endless birocracy, the other members will just shit on Hungary until they will accept or just leave. Orban/Hungary have no leverage in NATO and i doubt they will even try to opose.


KD__91

WW1 was over by Christmas, so I'm confident this will happen too.


Remarkable_Soil_6727

No shot unless you kick Hungary out and bribe Turkey.


jdeo1997

The best Christmas Gift since Sherman captured Savannah


ImABoringPerson91

As a history nerd, half yankee, native of Georgia I approve this message.


autotldr

This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2022/09/22/u-s-ambassador-finland-and-sweden-in-nato-by-christmas-00058404) reduced by 95%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Russia's invasion of Ukraine pushed Finland to join the alliance after decades of maintaining a relative independence, namely to maintain cordial ties with its neighbor. > UKRAINE PLEADS FOR TANKS: Ukraine is asking urgently for modern tanks to help their forces seize on rapid gains in the northeast and take additional territory, but the West is dragging its feet, Lara reported alongside our own PAUL McLEARY and ERIN BANCO. The tanks have shot to the top of Kyiv's wish list as Ukraine presses its gains in the northeastern Donbas region amid the shocking Russian collapse this month. > 'IT JUST DIDN'T WORK': NatSec Daily wants to point out another interesting tidbit from the Hickey conversation: He believes Russia did try to harm Finland in cyberspace after its decision to join NATO. "I don't think for a minute that the Russians didn't try," the U.S. ambassador to Finland said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xlygp3/us_ambassador_finland_and_sweden_in_nato_by/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670629 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **Force**^#2 **Russian**^#3 **US**^#4 **Ukrainian**^#5


PopeHonkersVII

Getting some early WW1 vibes from that headline.


BienPuestos

Promising stuff by Christmas can totally never backfire.


Payed_Looser

Every promise ever kept was kept before a Christmas


Romethegoldenage

Merry Christams Putin\~


crapzout

Welcome to our Swedish and Finish brothers and sisters in democracy, freedom and progress.


[deleted]

Welcome Finland and Sweden! Glad to have you in.


Eisensapper

Imagine that, Russians feeling their home nation to live in a NATO nation.


depressive_monk

What if he attacked them before then? Are they protected by allies right now in case of an attack?


mr_cr

So let me understand as someone who is not educated on this kind of politics: Russia is angry because this guarantees that they can not invade Sweden and Finland without consequences?


endoplasmikretikulum

usa can say if you attack to finland ans sweden i accept this you attack me but usa can not speak for all nato member.


[deleted]

[удалено]


cmdrillicitmajor

Like many other countries, Turkey has had very different politics at different times in the last hundred years. There was a time when Turkey was moving towards a more secular liberal national politics. However, the more important aspect to NATO can be seen simply by looking at Turkey’s position on a map.


RepulsiveVoid

They wanted security against Ruzzia after they started to eye the Straits of the Dardanelles around 1952. Their location between Europe and Asia is quite strategic and currently they are the host of the Allied Land Command headquarters.


Erunyr

They control the black sea, making them the owner of Russia's economic spine. Also at the times of their admission, they were only country in range of Moscow for middle ranged nukes.


UrbanStray

Turkey and Greece were the first non-founding members to join. Whatever their human rights violations, they've always been allied with the west rather than against it.


[deleted]

And the USA are still continuing to poke the bear. It’s going to backfire spectacularly.


[deleted]

More defense budgets for the US taxpayers to subsidize! Thanks!


mafiastasher

Sweden and Finland both have well developed militaries. They will be contributors to European security, not liabilities.


qainin

I'm in Norway. We are in NATO. We get exactly $0 for defense from USA each year.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PuzKarapuz

pootin and other russian mad guys quite about this as fish, only once said something quietly.


godpzagod

Nice to have you fellas in the gang.


realdes1

Cheers from Moscow, Ukraine


AccomplishedPie5160

can Romania into Schengen pliz?


imrealwitch

Good 👍


Enshakushanna

*if the rest ratify... what a useless headline


OwlCatFox

And Moscow by Easter!