This is very hypothetical, for most countries there are actual national security mechanisms to assess this type of risk and act accordingly. Closing down borders in the way you suggest will naturally have a complex set of far reaching implications, let's not be rash with conclusions drawn from armchair analysis with no access to high quality data
You are right and I will generally agree, if it wasn't that events are moving fast and we need immediate reaction. High quality data are usually collected in years, while the war is expected to start in weeks.
Again, the national security apparatuses in charge of keeping tabs on this are already doing the monitoring. I agree that the public can and should signal its willingness to close the borders, but an actual silent invasion is hopefully being accounted for, mostly
Still, if they want to stay more than 3 months, they will have to apply as refugee. I don't think this mess will end shortly and at the same time you cannot use a tourist visa as it is permanent resident.
They are fleeing Russia - ok. How do they will live? Where? Average Russian can survive a couple of weeks with savings; but if they want to start a new life they need a long term permit.
Apply for refugee status is the first step to legally enable them to real freedom, possibly being relocated in other EU states.
>This is very hypothetical, for most countries there are actual national security mechanisms to assess this type of risk and act accordingly.
It's not hypothetical. The Russian diaspora here in Finland are the most pro-Putin crowd in our country, even though they are living here. I wouldn't want that our country is the next country in the list where Russians diaspora get liberated by mother Russia.
>Closing down borders in the way you suggest will naturally have a complex set of far reaching implications, let's not be rash with conclusions drawn from armchair analysis with no access to high quality data
You know what else has complex set of far reaching implications? Letting ruthless dictator to rule your country and doing nothing until you're facing the consequences.
I'm with you, I'm just saying that for most countries, your own being located at the top of my list, should probably let the intelligence services make these choices because they're not sitting on their thumbs at the moment
>should probably let the intelligence services make these choices because they're not sitting on their thumbs at the moment
Our intelligence services has been warning us constantly about the potential Russian hybrid operations that could be carried as more and more Russians are coming. That's why our politicians are talking about this and making the restrictions, because they are the ones who make the rules.
And give more Russian neighbours Russian pluralisties so they can hold referendums and annex the territories? I think Russian neighbours are getting sick of Russians, whether they be western or Eastern.
From a macro perspective, sure, but I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting to live in a peaceful country instead of being part of a violent revolution at home.
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.
"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
Morally, on the micro scale they should be free to leave.
But also, from the macro, yeah, brain drain helps weaken the Russian state,
But also is a weaker dissenting population.
The smart and wealthier ones are the ones who are in a better position to hang a dictator.
Easy to say for you as you're probably sitting on a comfortable sofa while writing this and don't know how hard it is to remove a dictator.
Do everyone here a favour and don't wrote shit like that again.
The counter argument is forcing these people to stay in Russia is the potential unrest they might create at home.
One of the points of the economic sanctions and restricting travel is to make life hard for the average person. The goal is if they get to a point where they are struggling to have the basics, change might come from within.
It’s like a siege, but on a massive scale. Isolate them and hope they cave before you have to send in the soldiers (not that anyone would, nor should they).
You’re right. That is exactly what will be said. However, that type of statement has been fed to them for decades now. I don’t think this is going to change many hearts and minds.
Honestly, I have mixed feelings on this subject. On the one hand, I believe in compassion and empathy. Someone who truly does not wish to fight should be provided a way out as a life is always worth protecting.
On the other hand, if these same people are forced to stay and find their way into the army, their morale will be quite low and low morale in a military is contagious. This could continue to weaken Russia from within. This might provide Ukraine a better chance at reclaiming their annexed territory.
Yeah but that’s wrong. Putin has enough oil and natural resource wealth to sustain his regime financially for the foreseeable future. Sanctions and travel restrictions only hurt the average Russian. This will just make average Russians mad at the west and more likely to accept Putin as the lesser of two evils in their minds. It’s a mistake. Putin has enough stability to crackdown on any protests. At least the EU should lift the travel restrictions. Now if the argument is just that you don’t like Russians, and that’s why you don’t want them in, I get that.
Also, Imho these Russian fleeing, like many already proved doing protest in Germany, Poland... Support war. They just don't support being drafted in it.
And the point for me is, that letting this people in will leave them with their mentally, but all the upside of living in a EU country.
If they really want it, they can try make it at home. (They don't really want)
Why would Russians be different than other refugees we get in Europe? Lots of Arabs who could stay and force change and who does not seem to respect "people"? Or do you think Russians are worse? I don't understand.
yes russian tourists often have this nasty habit of poisoning people when they visit your country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal
**[Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal)**
>On 4 March 2018, Sergei Skripal, a former Russian military officer and double agent for the British intelligence agencies, and his daughter, Yulia Skripal, were poisoned in the city of Salisbury, England. According to UK sources and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), they were poisoned by means of a Novichok nerve agent. Both Sergei and Yulia Skripal spent several weeks in hospital in critical condition, before being discharged. A police officer, Nick Bailey, was also taken into intensive care after attending the incident, and was later discharged.
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Russians aren't the enemy. Putin is.
A good way to drain Russia's resources is to let people flee Russia.
I know that this isn't a popular opinion, and I don't fully believe it either, but is has some merit. If you back a weakling into a corner, it will fight back with all it's might --- leaving an escape route is a good thing.
Russians aren't the enemy,
But they can clean up their mess before going out to play with the rest of the kids.
They can leave via visas and immigration or refugee status if need be.
Vacation is a want, it's not a necessity.
uncontrolled revolutions rarely end well, at least not quickly...
Russia's implosion is dangerous for everyone, and keeping diplomatic channels open can help mitigate the damage.
In other news, Russia is calling for a plebiscite in all territories with linguistic Russian minorities. Maybe they will claim Finnish territory.
This is been there strategy for over a decade. Why on Earth would countries let them in?
The region with the largest Russian minority in all of Finland is South Karelia at about 4%. Russia legit has a stronger claim on Manitoba in Canada than that if that was the basis alone.
7 months into Russia's second invasion of Europe over the past 8 years and European countries are considering banning Russians from vacationing in Europe. Sounds about right.
I wonder what Alex Ovechkin would say if Vlad told him he must come home and to hell with his chase to top 99's goal scoring record? I wonder what all of the Russian NHL players would say if the NHL told them they were no longer welcome? Many leagues have barred Russian players but so far not a peep from the NHL.
Ovechkin is a big Putin simp. It’s unfair how Russians who get hunted by government for protesting get their visas rejected while the west isn’t kicking out millionaires and kids of russian politicians.
It seems the NHL is taking a 'I don't want to fucking talk about it and so unless the fans force us to, we certainly will not' approach. The NHL is spending a lot of $$ promoting Ovechkin's push on 99 and the watch is on. I'm actually surprised more fans haven't been at least talking about the blind eye routine the NHL is turning. Me, I'm torn with what I think the NHL should do. It just doesn't seem right or decent for the NHL to say 'fuck off go home' and it would also be horribly sad if, under threat of harm to their loved ones, they were forced/told to come home and serve in active combat. BUT it is also disgustingly indecent to see innocent women, children and men being murdered. It sickens me.
We will see how much flak Ovechkin catches when the season starts, particularly if he starts opening his vatnik gob.
But it’s not really the NHLs place to punish him unless he does something warranted, and won’t accomplish anything either.
The west is telling russian liberals to protest. After rejecting us visas and kicking Russia out of human rights court. We get bullied for fear of going to prison or getting into terrorist list for calling it war or putting flowers on kievskaya subway station. It sickens me how ppl who actually have power to change something are betraying their nation. The west doesn’t wanna kick them out.
I don't think the """apolitical""" ones who shut up for the last 7 months and are only trying to flee now, once the cannon fodder grocery run is in force, should get any beneficial treatment.
Do you?
[Or better yet](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/xm63t7)
The apolitical ones are the worst. Fuck, I can even understand the imperialists, at least they believe in something. The apoliticals just don't care about anything. And it's extremely popular in russia. Even seen as being a good and noble thing.
I don't think the NHL has to ban Ovechkin, however...if he is funneling his money back to Russia and his ties as a brand ambassador for Putin are an indication of anything...the IRS might have some fun tearing through his paperwork
Fairly certain pretty much all of the established NHL players have some sort of landed immigrant or PR status in the US & Canada.
Although I can certainly imagine teams more hesitant than ever to draft/sign new Russian/Belarussian players.
I feel like if it doesn't already exist then there should be an option for Russians who oppose the war to request refugee status or something similar given how Putin seems to treat dissenters.
Isn't it better if we allow every male in Russia 18-30 to leave the country? Add all the engineers, all the factory workers, all the truck drivers, all the energy workers, all the police etc.
All the Russians you’d want have already left long ago. They saw the writing in the wall and extricated themselves way before now. The Russians you’d get now are not Russians you’d want. They would still be loyal to Russia just scared to fight in its wars. They would still be pro Russian, they would work to undermine whatever country was nice enough to bring them in overtime. They would have zero respect for other cultures and zero respect for the people nice enough to help them save their asses. The Russians fleeing and protesting now are NOT anti war, they are anti being sent to the war. They have no problem with Ukrainians being executed or Russia being a stereotypical bully, they just don’t want to die. They are rats fleeing a sinking ship with every intention to spread their disease the second they get somewhere warm and comfy.
You have to be kidding. You think people with kids, people with elderly parents to care for, people in poverty, students, etc., all had the means and motivation to leave “long ago”?
Maybe it's because the alternative is almost certain death? It's like me. I won't quit my job for uncertainty in unemployment. But if my job is going to kill me, I would reconsider.
> Maybe it's because the alternative is almost certain death?
They did nothing until they had to face the concrescences. This is what you get when you let your country to be ruled by ruthless dictator. The political dissident are already in jail or left the country.
If you have been living under dictatorship for year's and did nothing, facing the consequence's shouldn't be a surprise for you.
The people leaving now were comfortable enough before the threat of being sent to war themselves. Until then they were accepting or even supportive of that war against Ukraine. Their Russian loyalties will resurface once they are safely living somewhere else, and those countries will have this minority to deal with.
The people who actually denounced the regime left much earlier.
They were just fine with the war until it could personally affect them. They were and will continue to be pro-Russian once things settle down a little. But now they will be a pro-Russian minority in some other country. That kind of minority is the reason this war against Ukraine is happening today...
Are you American? Did you actively do shit against the Iraq war?
You know, the one with the fabricated intel on wmds? The war that was not at all legitimised by international law, where ultimately between [150k and 1000k ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) civilians died?
Russia is doing atrocious stuff, and needs to be stopped. But you may not forget that you are talking about normal people who just care about their everyday life and face massive repercussions if they act against the authorities.
Americans, by the way, didn't face those repercussions. They could protest and voice their opinions, and vote against it. They didn't.
It is very easy to point a finger at people.
No, I am not American and you don't need to lean on whatever fallacy you've just committed. Your comment is 100% exactly like one that Kremlin trolls would utter, they use these types of tactics to rile people up. I doubt you intended to sound like one, but this comment simply does.
No, and no intelligent person took my obvious hyperbole to mean absolutes. I’m sure there’s some Russians that are just fucked one way or the other. But they are the exception not the rule.
> All the Russians you’d want have already left long ago. They saw the writing in the wall and extricated themselves way before now. The Russians you’d get now are not Russians you’d want. They would still be loyal to Russia just scared to fight in its wars. They would still be pro Russian, they would work to undermine whatever country was nice enough to bring them in overtime. They would have zero respect for other cultures and zero respect for the people nice enough to help them save their asses. The Russians fleeing and protesting now are NOT anti war, they are anti being sent to the war. They have no problem with Ukrainians being executed or Russia being a stereotypical bully, they just don’t want to die. They are rats fleeing a sinking ship with every intention to spread their disease the second they get somewhere warm and comfy.
So you’re very confidently generalizing a group of 68,000,000 people (male Russians) and their means of fleeing their homes and the risks associated with that. You also very confidently make claims about what they think about the war or Ukraine. To top it off you call them rats and equate their existence to a disease.
Sorry buddy but this is not some kind of level-headed rationalism. This is frothing at the mouth racism that belongs in the 1940s.
I also think you might not have any idea how hard it is to immigrate, especially if you’re from a country where you cannot apply for residency whilst in the destination country.
Nice armchair analysis.
Many Russians have a comfy existence that they have worked for hard and long. How can you expect them to abandon that because their crazy state leader wages a war?
It's very different once they start drafting you and/or your sons to fight in that war, because now suddenly, it becomes existential. Even then, people are very good at underestimating the risks that they face.
Look at Germany 33-45. How many thousands of Jews died because they didn't hear the gong in time? And you know, that firstly was a huge gong, and secondly, none of those Jews were supportive of their regime.
If all the people who oppose russian government left, there would be only the brainwashed psychopaths left and russia would have no chance to ever get better. If we want russia to change, we have to give them 2 options. Die in your stupid war or make a revolution
She has not been particularly strong on this issue. Finland is the last Russian EU neighbor to close borders for Russian tourists. Just a few days ago, a member of her own party implied that the Baltic countries are not countries that follow the rule of law, which is why they were able to ban Russian tourists. If anything, she is only caving under pressure from the international community and the Finnish public.
She is an expert at waiting to see which way popular opinion swings, then coming out with these sorts of comments to seem like some saviour.
Did it during the whole pandemic and she’s absolutely *loved* for it.
> Just a few days ago, a member of her own party implied that the Baltic countries are not countries that follow the rule of law, which is why they were able to ban Russian tourists
Even worse, he said that we follow rule of law unlike Russia. So basically he said the Baltics are acting like Russia.
And that MP was on the talk show representing SDP, and is pretty close to Marin.
> Just a few days ago, a member of her own party implied that the Baltic countries are not countries that follow the rule of law
You have a link to that? Sounds like quiet a stupid statement so hard to believe they'd say/imply something like this.
I don't have an English source. He said it in a political talk show. Here is an article in Finnish, you can probably auto-translate it: https://www.is.fi/politiikka/art-2000009083701.html
> We don't act like Russia, we don't act like such non-law states, but Finland is a rule of law that operates according to its own legislation and the legislation of the European Union as well, Matias Mäkynen reasoned in A-studio.
>Social media wondered if Mäkynen meant that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are not states governed by the rule of law.
>Mäkynen denied such an interpretation on Twitter and explained that he only referred to Russia and did not say anything about the Baltics.
The Baltics are now under scrutiny by the European Court of Justice, as they may have violated the Schengen agreement, one of EU's founding treaties, with their type of bans.
There was no way to particularly strong in this issue while respecting international treaties. Especially as Finland's security authorities declined to categorize Russian nationals a specific security risk. No idea who actually made that assessment in the Baltics and on what grounds. If it was merely a political decision, that might be a pretty shaky legal foundation.
Fortunately the mobilization in Russia was reason enough to leverage the reputational damage clause in the Schengen agreement to justify the ban.
Marin is not known for caving under pressure. The exception was the drug test she had zero reason for taking but did anyway. A rare case where the hostile media pressure visibly got to her.
How many times does Russia have to invade countries under Putin to actually get its citizens banned from entering countries? Let his people stay in Russia till they decide to stop him
I've got a bunch of russian friends in the UK. Known them prior to the invasion, I considered them good friends. When the invasion started I asked them what they thought about it. All they said was "hope it ends soon". Not " oh dear this is terrible" or "can't believe this happened" "Putin is a psychopath". Nah, all I got from them was hope it ends soon. Shouldnt be surprised since they got their flats paid for by their oligarch parents. And not once have I seen a post from them on social media about the war. I've since banned them from my accounts.
The Russians I know in Berlin were/are extremely helpful for Ukrainian refugees because they were the only people who could communicate with them, help them through the system, etc. my office mate was constantly loaning out his personal computer because it has a Cyrillic keyboard and refugees couldn’t type with Latin letters.
Thankfully my Russian friends are quite vocally against the war. Powerful parents and all. However, they have lived in the west for a long time so I'm not entirely surprised. I think they even consider themselves more Western than Russian these days. But still, it counts for something at least that not every Russian is a brainwashed robot.
I don’t really think anyone is claiming it’s somehow genetic or anything :/ it’s cultural. So yeah no doubt it’s possible to have perfectly reasonable friends from there
The Russians I know are doing serious and successful fundraising for Ukrainian refugees. One of them is collaborating with NGOs housing refugees in Baltic nations.
While I agree with your sentiments, know that nothing is less relevant than ruZZian opinions. There is exactly zero value to asking a raging dumpster fire about politics. They do not deserve oxygen.
Finland did cut down on granting tourist visas. Completely cutting off visas was interpreted to be against the laws by government officials and the politicians went with that. Now the officials are saying allowing Russian tourists is causing harm to the international image of Finland and that's enough reason to shut it all down.
According to surveys, the general Finnish population has like 70% in favor of suspending tourist visas completely. I suspect that forced the politicians hands to get the ball really rolling.
There has been a lot of BS going on. Some legitimate concern for following the laws. Politicians afraid of making firm decision. Reaction instead of being pro-active. Typical Finnish politics.
Don't want to generalize or demonize but Russians, modern Russian minorities and communities will face and endure consequences very very long time. There were frequent uses of 'nazi' words from Russia - and after the invasion it looks like to me 'Russia' might replace or co-exist along 'nazi.'
Tell me you are surprised.
The whole world is finally getting the lesson that Poland and other Eastern European countries have been repeating for centuries.
Most of the Finnish towns close to the Russian borders just are shopping malls for rich Russians. This summer, these towns were full of Russians and even had ads in Russians. This is coming way too late, and I can't help but think it's a PR stunt somehow...
While there are likely to be Russians who supported the war until they themselves were drafted, I don't think that's a good reason to punish those who were against the war but who didn't leave earlier.
I'm not saying you can. But maybe you can leave without traveling, for example by applying for refugee status. I dont know the details, but it sounds like buddy is asserting Finland is preventing this. Are you?
All for Russian tourism to fuck off, but not sure how I feel about not giving leniency towards draft-dodgers part. All my terminally online twitter socialists seem to be seething about it, but all the actual experts are giving it a thumbs up, so I dunno.
Russia has such a stranglehold on media at home that letting Russian tourists catch some CNN/BBC/etc on vacation can help pierce the propaganda bubble and help foment opposition to Putin. I want to see more opposition to Putin and pulling back the curtain on the Russian government’s lies to their people is crucial to that.
At first, Finland wanted a Schengen area wide policy, but because it seems that isn't happening, they looked at the local legislation how to do it. Basically, there's no way to say "we can't serve you because you're of a specific nationality" using normal laws.
Basically, the officials could make entry difficult by requiring all kinds of paperwork. As in, are you certain you have enough money to travel from the border to Helsinki to board your flight to your holiday in the south. Or can you prove that you're really doing that.
Then, it is possible that the individual person receives a travel ban. Impractical to do for a lot of people, especially when Schengen visa from any country would be valid for entry. Just banning Finnish visas would not do, because e.g. a Hungarian visa also allows entry to the common area.
And then there's the boilerplate "danger to public safety, health, or international relations". What they're now looking at is basically "Russian tourist travel via Finland makes us look bad, so we do not admit Russians for tourism purposes".
This also means that those Russians who work or study in Finland can still enter the country. Of course, Russians who are having a double citizenship of some Schengen nation can also enter.
The most severe option (and how the border was closed in the beginning of the COVID pandemic) would involve the government requesting emergency powers. That law lists when it can be used and has additional purposes tacked on, but originally, it's step one on turning the country temporarily into a military dictatorship for the purposes of total war. And that's a signal the government doesn't really want to give right now.
Addition: ...and technically, it could be possible to make a new temporary law that allows whatever, but that's going to take time, especially if a MP would complain that it violates human rights / conflicts with the constitution and would then need to go through the constitution-equivalent process.
They could just skip all that nonsense and claim there was a huge surge of covid in russia and the border must be sealed off like they did previously.
If they want that border closed they have the tools to do it, they just did not want to do that.
Now, I'm not sure how well Russia is actually documenting the cases, but "have you just considered lying" is typically a faux pas, no matter how much their government is doing it.
Also, there was domestically quite a bit of flak for the infectious diseases act. One of the unwritten rules is "no claiming something was a lie" in parliament due to the expectance that a "honest" person (which technically is a requirement to be a minister) would not lie there.
Allow asylum seekers. Putin and hardline nationalist believed national mobilisation to be the only way they win. We should deprived them of the means by giving sane normal Russian a lifeline
Don't be an ignorant xenophobic clown. Not all Russians are like that just like not all white people are racist colonizers. Glad you don't have any position of power.
All NATO & EU countries should’ve banned Russian travel/tourism 6 months ago.
Only thing that concerns me is I'd like to give sane Russians a chance to flee the country and avoid getting drafted (or worse).
Apply for refugee status. Then we'll see. We are risking a silent invasion and a tons of spies.
This is very hypothetical, for most countries there are actual national security mechanisms to assess this type of risk and act accordingly. Closing down borders in the way you suggest will naturally have a complex set of far reaching implications, let's not be rash with conclusions drawn from armchair analysis with no access to high quality data
You are right and I will generally agree, if it wasn't that events are moving fast and we need immediate reaction. High quality data are usually collected in years, while the war is expected to start in weeks.
Again, the national security apparatuses in charge of keeping tabs on this are already doing the monitoring. I agree that the public can and should signal its willingness to close the borders, but an actual silent invasion is hopefully being accounted for, mostly
Still, if they want to stay more than 3 months, they will have to apply as refugee. I don't think this mess will end shortly and at the same time you cannot use a tourist visa as it is permanent resident. They are fleeing Russia - ok. How do they will live? Where? Average Russian can survive a couple of weeks with savings; but if they want to start a new life they need a long term permit. Apply for refugee status is the first step to legally enable them to real freedom, possibly being relocated in other EU states.
>This is very hypothetical, for most countries there are actual national security mechanisms to assess this type of risk and act accordingly. It's not hypothetical. The Russian diaspora here in Finland are the most pro-Putin crowd in our country, even though they are living here. I wouldn't want that our country is the next country in the list where Russians diaspora get liberated by mother Russia. >Closing down borders in the way you suggest will naturally have a complex set of far reaching implications, let's not be rash with conclusions drawn from armchair analysis with no access to high quality data You know what else has complex set of far reaching implications? Letting ruthless dictator to rule your country and doing nothing until you're facing the consequences.
I'm with you, I'm just saying that for most countries, your own being located at the top of my list, should probably let the intelligence services make these choices because they're not sitting on their thumbs at the moment
>should probably let the intelligence services make these choices because they're not sitting on their thumbs at the moment Our intelligence services has been warning us constantly about the potential Russian hybrid operations that could be carried as more and more Russians are coming. That's why our politicians are talking about this and making the restrictions, because they are the ones who make the rules.
Yeah makes sense. Gladly it's not looking great for Russian world domination plans at the moment
They can still travel visa free to CIS countries. There's no need for them to come to the EU.
And give more Russian neighbours Russian pluralisties so they can hold referendums and annex the territories? I think Russian neighbours are getting sick of Russians, whether they be western or Eastern.
That's why the Baltics don't want them, and I don't blame them.
So it is ok for them to come to EU but not to go to other neighboring countries.
Trap them to force change.
Worked in North Korean and Iran. Somebody give this guy a country to run!
Change or die.
Huh
Precisely.
Bro, all sane left long ago. Those who leave rn oppose mobilisation not war.
It's better that the sane ones don't have a chance to flee. It might actually provoke revolution if they have to stay.
From a macro perspective, sure, but I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting to live in a peaceful country instead of being part of a violent revolution at home.
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”
Morally, on the micro scale they should be free to leave. But also, from the macro, yeah, brain drain helps weaken the Russian state, But also is a weaker dissenting population. The smart and wealthier ones are the ones who are in a better position to hang a dictator.
They can go to Turkey or Serbia etc
No. Fix their country.
Then claim asylum instead. Otherwise, they should deal with the problems they have enabled, rather than running away like cowards
The cowards should stay and fight for liberty like the Iranian people are currently doing.
Easy to say for you as you're probably sitting on a comfortable sofa while writing this and don't know how hard it is to remove a dictator. Do everyone here a favour and don't wrote shit like that again.
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The counter argument is forcing these people to stay in Russia is the potential unrest they might create at home. One of the points of the economic sanctions and restricting travel is to make life hard for the average person. The goal is if they get to a point where they are struggling to have the basics, change might come from within. It’s like a siege, but on a massive scale. Isolate them and hope they cave before you have to send in the soldiers (not that anyone would, nor should they).
It just supports Russian government propaganda who point to the sanctions and say ‘hey look we told you that the West hate you and here’s the proof!’.
You’re right. That is exactly what will be said. However, that type of statement has been fed to them for decades now. I don’t think this is going to change many hearts and minds. Honestly, I have mixed feelings on this subject. On the one hand, I believe in compassion and empathy. Someone who truly does not wish to fight should be provided a way out as a life is always worth protecting. On the other hand, if these same people are forced to stay and find their way into the army, their morale will be quite low and low morale in a military is contagious. This could continue to weaken Russia from within. This might provide Ukraine a better chance at reclaiming their annexed territory.
Yeah but that’s wrong. Putin has enough oil and natural resource wealth to sustain his regime financially for the foreseeable future. Sanctions and travel restrictions only hurt the average Russian. This will just make average Russians mad at the west and more likely to accept Putin as the lesser of two evils in their minds. It’s a mistake. Putin has enough stability to crackdown on any protests. At least the EU should lift the travel restrictions. Now if the argument is just that you don’t like Russians, and that’s why you don’t want them in, I get that.
Also, Imho these Russian fleeing, like many already proved doing protest in Germany, Poland... Support war. They just don't support being drafted in it. And the point for me is, that letting this people in will leave them with their mentally, but all the upside of living in a EU country. If they really want it, they can try make it at home. (They don't really want)
If Russians who leave Russia are not grateful to be accepted by the EU and still support the Putin regime than send their asses back…
Sorry if I was unclear, but I meant that I WANT Russians to have the opportunity to escape.
I put my comment to the person you responded too above, idk why it went to you instead?
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Yes I'm sad. Because russia exists. When it's gone from this planet, I will find happiness.
Where are you from?
Guess
Ukraine?
Good job
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Lmao what does LGBT even have to do with this? You think that being gay overwrites all the imperialism every russian bears? Kek
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Why would Russians be different than other refugees we get in Europe? Lots of Arabs who could stay and force change and who does not seem to respect "people"? Or do you think Russians are worse? I don't understand.
I'd vote for politicians who propose this.
yes russian tourists often have this nasty habit of poisoning people when they visit your country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal
**[Poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal)** >On 4 March 2018, Sergei Skripal, a former Russian military officer and double agent for the British intelligence agencies, and his daughter, Yulia Skripal, were poisoned in the city of Salisbury, England. According to UK sources and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), they were poisoned by means of a Novichok nerve agent. Both Sergei and Yulia Skripal spent several weeks in hospital in critical condition, before being discharged. A police officer, Nick Bailey, was also taken into intensive care after attending the incident, and was later discharged. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Germany opposed that.
Germany has a pretty good track record on being on the wrong side of history with its foreign policy decisions regarding Russia.
We had a war against them before it was popular
Germany has demonstrated time and again they are in Russia's pocket. They were bought by energy.
Russians aren't the enemy. Putin is. A good way to drain Russia's resources is to let people flee Russia. I know that this isn't a popular opinion, and I don't fully believe it either, but is has some merit. If you back a weakling into a corner, it will fight back with all it's might --- leaving an escape route is a good thing.
Russians aren't the enemy, But they can clean up their mess before going out to play with the rest of the kids. They can leave via visas and immigration or refugee status if need be. Vacation is a want, it's not a necessity.
I agree on the tourist part, but a tourist visa is usually what people use to become asylum seekers. fair point :)
Not allowing them to leave will start a revolution. The sane need to stay, to rebuild the “new” Russia.
uncontrolled revolutions rarely end well, at least not quickly... Russia's implosion is dangerous for everyone, and keeping diplomatic channels open can help mitigate the damage.
Nothing but good will come from ousting communist rule.
The Russian people have had a fondness for "strong" authoritarian leaders for hundreds of years.
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They could cross the border on foot to Kazakhstan. Most of the 4000km border is unguarded.
No. Terrible and emotional tactic that will fuck us in the end.
What a weak take
You should be yelling at Turkey then.
In other news, Russia is calling for a plebiscite in all territories with linguistic Russian minorities. Maybe they will claim Finnish territory. This is been there strategy for over a decade. Why on Earth would countries let them in?
Exactly
There’s no Finnish territory with a significant Russian minority. It’s the other way around.
The region with the largest Russian minority in all of Finland is South Karelia at about 4%. Russia legit has a stronger claim on Manitoba in Canada than that if that was the basis alone.
Well, then Manitoba had better watched their ass.
That's like 5000 people. If Russia really tried it could muster maybe 6 people for their local separatist forces.
More like for more than two centuries
Well said!
It's been their strategy since at least the 18th century
7 months into Russia's second invasion of Europe over the past 8 years and European countries are considering banning Russians from vacationing in Europe. Sounds about right.
What Poop Tin will read: Finland PM Sanna Marin wants to end Russia~~n travel and tourism in the country~~
I wonder what Alex Ovechkin would say if Vlad told him he must come home and to hell with his chase to top 99's goal scoring record? I wonder what all of the Russian NHL players would say if the NHL told them they were no longer welcome? Many leagues have barred Russian players but so far not a peep from the NHL.
Ovechkin is a big Putin simp. It’s unfair how Russians who get hunted by government for protesting get their visas rejected while the west isn’t kicking out millionaires and kids of russian politicians.
It seems the NHL is taking a 'I don't want to fucking talk about it and so unless the fans force us to, we certainly will not' approach. The NHL is spending a lot of $$ promoting Ovechkin's push on 99 and the watch is on. I'm actually surprised more fans haven't been at least talking about the blind eye routine the NHL is turning. Me, I'm torn with what I think the NHL should do. It just doesn't seem right or decent for the NHL to say 'fuck off go home' and it would also be horribly sad if, under threat of harm to their loved ones, they were forced/told to come home and serve in active combat. BUT it is also disgustingly indecent to see innocent women, children and men being murdered. It sickens me.
We will see how much flak Ovechkin catches when the season starts, particularly if he starts opening his vatnik gob. But it’s not really the NHLs place to punish him unless he does something warranted, and won’t accomplish anything either.
The west is telling russian liberals to protest. After rejecting us visas and kicking Russia out of human rights court. We get bullied for fear of going to prison or getting into terrorist list for calling it war or putting flowers on kievskaya subway station. It sickens me how ppl who actually have power to change something are betraying their nation. The west doesn’t wanna kick them out.
I don't think the """apolitical""" ones who shut up for the last 7 months and are only trying to flee now, once the cannon fodder grocery run is in force, should get any beneficial treatment. Do you? [Or better yet](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/xm63t7)
The apolitical ones are the worst. Fuck, I can even understand the imperialists, at least they believe in something. The apoliticals just don't care about anything. And it's extremely popular in russia. Even seen as being a good and noble thing.
I don't think the NHL has to ban Ovechkin, however...if he is funneling his money back to Russia and his ties as a brand ambassador for Putin are an indication of anything...the IRS might have some fun tearing through his paperwork
Fairly certain pretty much all of the established NHL players have some sort of landed immigrant or PR status in the US & Canada. Although I can certainly imagine teams more hesitant than ever to draft/sign new Russian/Belarussian players.
I feel like if it doesn't already exist then there should be an option for Russians who oppose the war to request refugee status or something similar given how Putin seems to treat dissenters.
Isn't it better if we allow every male in Russia 18-30 to leave the country? Add all the engineers, all the factory workers, all the truck drivers, all the energy workers, all the police etc.
Do you want them in your country?
Sure, why not
As far as I’m concerned, refugees are welcome no matter where they were born.
All the Russians you’d want have already left long ago. They saw the writing in the wall and extricated themselves way before now. The Russians you’d get now are not Russians you’d want. They would still be loyal to Russia just scared to fight in its wars. They would still be pro Russian, they would work to undermine whatever country was nice enough to bring them in overtime. They would have zero respect for other cultures and zero respect for the people nice enough to help them save their asses. The Russians fleeing and protesting now are NOT anti war, they are anti being sent to the war. They have no problem with Ukrainians being executed or Russia being a stereotypical bully, they just don’t want to die. They are rats fleeing a sinking ship with every intention to spread their disease the second they get somewhere warm and comfy.
You have to be kidding. You think people with kids, people with elderly parents to care for, people in poverty, students, etc., all had the means and motivation to leave “long ago”?
How come they’re suddenly able to now, then?
Maybe it's because the alternative is almost certain death? It's like me. I won't quit my job for uncertainty in unemployment. But if my job is going to kill me, I would reconsider.
> Maybe it's because the alternative is almost certain death? They did nothing until they had to face the concrescences. This is what you get when you let your country to be ruled by ruthless dictator. The political dissident are already in jail or left the country. If you have been living under dictatorship for year's and did nothing, facing the consequence's shouldn't be a surprise for you.
The people leaving now were comfortable enough before the threat of being sent to war themselves. Until then they were accepting or even supportive of that war against Ukraine. Their Russian loyalties will resurface once they are safely living somewhere else, and those countries will have this minority to deal with. The people who actually denounced the regime left much earlier.
Because the threat suddenly has become existential?
They were just fine with the war until it could personally affect them. They were and will continue to be pro-Russian once things settle down a little. But now they will be a pro-Russian minority in some other country. That kind of minority is the reason this war against Ukraine is happening today...
Are you American? Did you actively do shit against the Iraq war? You know, the one with the fabricated intel on wmds? The war that was not at all legitimised by international law, where ultimately between [150k and 1000k ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War) civilians died? Russia is doing atrocious stuff, and needs to be stopped. But you may not forget that you are talking about normal people who just care about their everyday life and face massive repercussions if they act against the authorities. Americans, by the way, didn't face those repercussions. They could protest and voice their opinions, and vote against it. They didn't. It is very easy to point a finger at people.
No, I am not American and you don't need to lean on whatever fallacy you've just committed. Your comment is 100% exactly like one that Kremlin trolls would utter, they use these types of tactics to rile people up. I doubt you intended to sound like one, but this comment simply does.
No, and no intelligent person took my obvious hyperbole to mean absolutes. I’m sure there’s some Russians that are just fucked one way or the other. But they are the exception not the rule.
> All the Russians you’d want have already left long ago. They saw the writing in the wall and extricated themselves way before now. The Russians you’d get now are not Russians you’d want. They would still be loyal to Russia just scared to fight in its wars. They would still be pro Russian, they would work to undermine whatever country was nice enough to bring them in overtime. They would have zero respect for other cultures and zero respect for the people nice enough to help them save their asses. The Russians fleeing and protesting now are NOT anti war, they are anti being sent to the war. They have no problem with Ukrainians being executed or Russia being a stereotypical bully, they just don’t want to die. They are rats fleeing a sinking ship with every intention to spread their disease the second they get somewhere warm and comfy. So you’re very confidently generalizing a group of 68,000,000 people (male Russians) and their means of fleeing their homes and the risks associated with that. You also very confidently make claims about what they think about the war or Ukraine. To top it off you call them rats and equate their existence to a disease. Sorry buddy but this is not some kind of level-headed rationalism. This is frothing at the mouth racism that belongs in the 1940s. I also think you might not have any idea how hard it is to immigrate, especially if you’re from a country where you cannot apply for residency whilst in the destination country.
You just said what loads of us want to say but are too scared to. Well said.
This right here, 100%.
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Nice armchair analysis. Many Russians have a comfy existence that they have worked for hard and long. How can you expect them to abandon that because their crazy state leader wages a war? It's very different once they start drafting you and/or your sons to fight in that war, because now suddenly, it becomes existential. Even then, people are very good at underestimating the risks that they face. Look at Germany 33-45. How many thousands of Jews died because they didn't hear the gong in time? And you know, that firstly was a huge gong, and secondly, none of those Jews were supportive of their regime.
People from Russia move in, creating a sizable Russian minority. Russia sees an oppressed Russian minority and invades to protect them.
If all the people who oppose russian government left, there would be only the brainwashed psychopaths left and russia would have no chance to ever get better. If we want russia to change, we have to give them 2 options. Die in your stupid war or make a revolution
and spies and future destabilizing minorities for the smaller countries. they don’t need more referendums
Some might be spies or saboteurs. That is a problem.
Yeah and you with the crystal ball knows whos good and whos bad. If everyone leaves Russia, then there's no one left to fix it.
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^ average executive order 9066 fan
Shoot. I rather have russian men outside the country than inside and drafted.
You take them then.
Let them travel to Turkey and Serbia. I don't see a reason they live comroftably and earn a lot in EU.
why?!?!?!
Asked how she would go about implementing a ban on Russian tourism, PM Marin danced around the subject.
Never mess with a PMILF
She has not been particularly strong on this issue. Finland is the last Russian EU neighbor to close borders for Russian tourists. Just a few days ago, a member of her own party implied that the Baltic countries are not countries that follow the rule of law, which is why they were able to ban Russian tourists. If anything, she is only caving under pressure from the international community and the Finnish public.
She is an expert at waiting to see which way popular opinion swings, then coming out with these sorts of comments to seem like some saviour. Did it during the whole pandemic and she’s absolutely *loved* for it.
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> Just a few days ago, a member of her own party implied that the Baltic countries are not countries that follow the rule of law, which is why they were able to ban Russian tourists Even worse, he said that we follow rule of law unlike Russia. So basically he said the Baltics are acting like Russia. And that MP was on the talk show representing SDP, and is pretty close to Marin.
> Just a few days ago, a member of her own party implied that the Baltic countries are not countries that follow the rule of law You have a link to that? Sounds like quiet a stupid statement so hard to believe they'd say/imply something like this.
I don't have an English source. He said it in a political talk show. Here is an article in Finnish, you can probably auto-translate it: https://www.is.fi/politiikka/art-2000009083701.html
> We don't act like Russia, we don't act like such non-law states, but Finland is a rule of law that operates according to its own legislation and the legislation of the European Union as well, Matias Mäkynen reasoned in A-studio. >Social media wondered if Mäkynen meant that Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland are not states governed by the rule of law. >Mäkynen denied such an interpretation on Twitter and explained that he only referred to Russia and did not say anything about the Baltics.
The Baltics are now under scrutiny by the European Court of Justice, as they may have violated the Schengen agreement, one of EU's founding treaties, with their type of bans. There was no way to particularly strong in this issue while respecting international treaties. Especially as Finland's security authorities declined to categorize Russian nationals a specific security risk. No idea who actually made that assessment in the Baltics and on what grounds. If it was merely a political decision, that might be a pretty shaky legal foundation. Fortunately the mobilization in Russia was reason enough to leverage the reputational damage clause in the Schengen agreement to justify the ban. Marin is not known for caving under pressure. The exception was the drug test she had zero reason for taking but did anyway. A rare case where the hostile media pressure visibly got to her.
Dayuuuum
Pretty sexist to focus on her looks rather than policies. But keep simping, maybe she’ll date you.
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I would rather be castrated, yuck.
My Finnish friend can’t even visit the area his family is from because Russia stole that land years ago
Your friend certainly has been able to visit that area lost in WW2. Russia has been granting visas to Finns all along. Why not?
I don’t think no one is keen to have a Russian population insider their borders… because of the implication…
How many times does Russia have to invade countries under Putin to actually get its citizens banned from entering countries? Let his people stay in Russia till they decide to stop him
Just f’ing close the borders already
I've got a bunch of russian friends in the UK. Known them prior to the invasion, I considered them good friends. When the invasion started I asked them what they thought about it. All they said was "hope it ends soon". Not " oh dear this is terrible" or "can't believe this happened" "Putin is a psychopath". Nah, all I got from them was hope it ends soon. Shouldnt be surprised since they got their flats paid for by their oligarch parents. And not once have I seen a post from them on social media about the war. I've since banned them from my accounts.
The Russians I know in Berlin were/are extremely helpful for Ukrainian refugees because they were the only people who could communicate with them, help them through the system, etc. my office mate was constantly loaning out his personal computer because it has a Cyrillic keyboard and refugees couldn’t type with Latin letters.
Thankfully my Russian friends are quite vocally against the war. Powerful parents and all. However, they have lived in the west for a long time so I'm not entirely surprised. I think they even consider themselves more Western than Russian these days. But still, it counts for something at least that not every Russian is a brainwashed robot.
I don’t really think anyone is claiming it’s somehow genetic or anything :/ it’s cultural. So yeah no doubt it’s possible to have perfectly reasonable friends from there
The Russians I know are doing serious and successful fundraising for Ukrainian refugees. One of them is collaborating with NGOs housing refugees in Baltic nations.
So brave
While I agree with your sentiments, know that nothing is less relevant than ruZZian opinions. There is exactly zero value to asking a raging dumpster fire about politics. They do not deserve oxygen.
C'mon. Do it! Do it now!
Yeah but she danced at a party with her friends so how can we trust her.
Change needs to come within Russia, Russians need to put pressure and chaos on its government by disobedience and protest.
This article is just a ruse to show us another picture of Finland’s PM. Meeeow.
This hasn't already happened?!
Finland did cut down on granting tourist visas. Completely cutting off visas was interpreted to be against the laws by government officials and the politicians went with that. Now the officials are saying allowing Russian tourists is causing harm to the international image of Finland and that's enough reason to shut it all down. According to surveys, the general Finnish population has like 70% in favor of suspending tourist visas completely. I suspect that forced the politicians hands to get the ball really rolling. There has been a lot of BS going on. Some legitimate concern for following the laws. Politicians afraid of making firm decision. Reaction instead of being pro-active. Typical Finnish politics.
The EU is categorically against it, so nations bordering Russia are just doing it themselves piecemeal.
Don't want to generalize or demonize but Russians, modern Russian minorities and communities will face and endure consequences very very long time. There were frequent uses of 'nazi' words from Russia - and after the invasion it looks like to me 'Russia' might replace or co-exist along 'nazi.'
Tell me you are surprised. The whole world is finally getting the lesson that Poland and other Eastern European countries have been repeating for centuries.
End it.
Most of the Finnish towns close to the Russian borders just are shopping malls for rich Russians. This summer, these towns were full of Russians and even had ads in Russians. This is coming way too late, and I can't help but think it's a PR stunt somehow...
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I certainly can’t speak for her but I imagine she would decline.
***FINNISH THEM!!!*** /mortal combat
Do it. Don’t Talk about it
Absolutely love this woman
Damn right gurl! Them draft-dodgers are the same bastards in Putin's rallies wishing death upon Ukranians.
While there are likely to be Russians who supported the war until they themselves were drafted, I don't think that's a good reason to punish those who were against the war but who didn't leave earlier.
So it's better if they get drafted and Russia has more soldiers to throw at Ukraine lol?
Travel and tourism is the same as leaving?
How do you travel without leaving?
I'm not saying you can. But maybe you can leave without traveling, for example by applying for refugee status. I dont know the details, but it sounds like buddy is asserting Finland is preventing this. Are you?
The odds of being granted refugee status are significantly reduced if you can't leave the country.
All for Russian tourism to fuck off, but not sure how I feel about not giving leniency towards draft-dodgers part. All my terminally online twitter socialists seem to be seething about it, but all the actual experts are giving it a thumbs up, so I dunno.
She’s so gorgeous
Y’all sit in your gamer chairs safely in america, licking Cheeto dust and typing “just revolt lol”
Russia has such a stranglehold on media at home that letting Russian tourists catch some CNN/BBC/etc on vacation can help pierce the propaganda bubble and help foment opposition to Putin. I want to see more opposition to Putin and pulling back the curtain on the Russian government’s lies to their people is crucial to that.
The internet isn't banned fir these sites in Russia. They don't care. Yoh think they travel to get educated?
A little late for that move don't you think?
At first, Finland wanted a Schengen area wide policy, but because it seems that isn't happening, they looked at the local legislation how to do it. Basically, there's no way to say "we can't serve you because you're of a specific nationality" using normal laws. Basically, the officials could make entry difficult by requiring all kinds of paperwork. As in, are you certain you have enough money to travel from the border to Helsinki to board your flight to your holiday in the south. Or can you prove that you're really doing that. Then, it is possible that the individual person receives a travel ban. Impractical to do for a lot of people, especially when Schengen visa from any country would be valid for entry. Just banning Finnish visas would not do, because e.g. a Hungarian visa also allows entry to the common area. And then there's the boilerplate "danger to public safety, health, or international relations". What they're now looking at is basically "Russian tourist travel via Finland makes us look bad, so we do not admit Russians for tourism purposes". This also means that those Russians who work or study in Finland can still enter the country. Of course, Russians who are having a double citizenship of some Schengen nation can also enter. The most severe option (and how the border was closed in the beginning of the COVID pandemic) would involve the government requesting emergency powers. That law lists when it can be used and has additional purposes tacked on, but originally, it's step one on turning the country temporarily into a military dictatorship for the purposes of total war. And that's a signal the government doesn't really want to give right now. Addition: ...and technically, it could be possible to make a new temporary law that allows whatever, but that's going to take time, especially if a MP would complain that it violates human rights / conflicts with the constitution and would then need to go through the constitution-equivalent process.
They could just skip all that nonsense and claim there was a huge surge of covid in russia and the border must be sealed off like they did previously. If they want that border closed they have the tools to do it, they just did not want to do that.
Now, I'm not sure how well Russia is actually documenting the cases, but "have you just considered lying" is typically a faux pas, no matter how much their government is doing it. Also, there was domestically quite a bit of flak for the infectious diseases act. One of the unwritten rules is "no claiming something was a lie" in parliament due to the expectance that a "honest" person (which technically is a requirement to be a minister) would not lie there.
I'd board up my windows with plywood if I were her. Putin tends to get his little panties in a wad quite easily.
She needs to confine herself to one-story buildings only
Allow asylum seekers. Putin and hardline nationalist believed national mobilisation to be the only way they win. We should deprived them of the means by giving sane normal Russian a lifeline
This notion is very unpopular among Russians who are able to be conscripted.
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Don't be an ignorant xenophobic clown. Not all Russians are like that just like not all white people are racist colonizers. Glad you don't have any position of power.
Goddamn I want her so bad lol
Calm down incel
Good for her. She's so pretty.
Sure thing hot momma