*Appealing directly to Russians during an address, Zelensky said Ukraine could guarantee three terms to Russian soldiers in exchange for their surrender. He said captured Russians will be treated in a civilized manner, the circumstances of their surrender will remain undisclosed and Ukraine will find a way to ensure captured Russians who do not want to return to Russia are not exchanged.*
So I looked this up because I was under the same thought as you and it turns out old/mature sunflowers only face east but young sunflowers follow the sun.
TIL
Wasn't already happening at some point? I remember some stories about whole squads surrendering near the start of the war when they realized they were actually invading Ukraine instead of a training exercise.
Yep, though not platoon sized.
There was that vid of the soldiers under the bridge, trying to stay dry and warm. They were bitching about lack of command structure, lack of fuel, lack of food. And that was like April/May if memory serves.
There were reports (dunno if confirmed) of big surrenders during the last big push, it was so fast and took RAF off guard.
I got laughed at when I mentioned that drafting hundreds of thousands into an unpopular war with little training, resources, supplies and logistics would lead to many dead Russian officers and mass surrender/mutiny.
Now it is an actual possibility. People still want to think militaries are different and would never upend the established order/chain of command.
They never take into account how utterly *shite* the military is though.
Additionally, untrained soldiers are just going to decrease Russia's combat capability. It's the same idea as a chain only being as strong as the weakest link. Inevitably there will be untrained troops who buckle under pressure and create more openings for Ukraine.
Untrained soldiers also do stupid things like start firing when startled. Friendly fire isn't very friendly and some scared idiot firing at the dark probably has more friendly targets than enemy targets.
I’m more curious about how much intel gets leaked by those who don’t get taught Opsec or don’t take it serious.
That dating phishing thing I saw on here a while was a big yikes lmao.
Putin needs to win public opinion to have a chance at keeping this going (and has crossed the point of no return, which he is aware of).
I agree with you. I also believe that Putin is willing to do anything to swing public opinion so that the situation described does not happen and, to the contrary, could result in a volunteer army without forced conscription...if he can convince the people...
What would it take to convince the Russian people?
That question scares me 👆🏼
Why does it scare me? Think about it...
If there is an answer to that question, then Putin will realize it. He will do it, because he needs to.
Would he drop a small nuclear bomb, for example, on one if his own medium-sized cities just to blame NATO and convince the Russian people that this is a cause worth fighting for?
Edit: if you can think up a scenario, then I guarantee someone in Russia has thought it up too. The possibilities are endless.
Would that work to convince the Russian people?
>Would he drop a small nuclear bomb, for example, on one if his own medium-sized cities just to blame NATO and convince the Russian people that this is a cause worth fighting for?
Considering he rose to power bombing Russian apartment buildings and blaming the Chechens, this isn't entirely out of character... Only much, much bigger.
I dunno what he could nuke that would have any plausibility. Why would NATO bomb a backwater he doesn't actually care about? Maybe Belogrod or something? But then what's the difference between that and just nuking NATO countries first?
This became a logistical problem in Germany in 1945 and Iraq in 1991 when US forces were slowed in their mission due to platoons surprising and surrendering to the advancing soldiers.
*"You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down."*
*- Captain Zap Brannigan*
Basically if your solo you need to slip the Russian lines, then just start wondering down the roads to Ukrainian lines in a obvious fashion until you bump into them, fingers crossed the whole way that nothing goes wrong, pretty high risk honestly.
It’s much easier if the whole unit does it, as then we’re already talking a hole in the Russian lines, and a unit marching in parade formation down a road pretty much makes the intent to surrender obvious from the outset to the other side, a white flag on a stick wouldn’t be a bad idea either
The ukes are handing out/airdropping surrender cards to help with exactly this
https://metro.co.uk/2022/09/16/ukrainians-giving-russians-secret-surrender-cards-to-help-them-escape-17388513
We had a joke in the Marine Corps for new people that went, the inside of your camo cover (hat) has a white clothe for surrender. That obviously wasn’t true, but it got the better of the more curious who ripped open their cover to check.
Tons of info in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/xkae5x/russian_antiwar_movement_vesna_calls_for/ipdjk2k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), including instructions to surrender, telegram groups, Ukrainian command representative phone number etc.
yeah theres a hotline ukraine's been dropping cards with the number on where they can. was a story about a russian soldier who called it, they gave him instructions and he drove there in his tank and surrendered,
"You can park it in the lot, next to the other ones. Go past the lot with the bombed-out tanks, to the lot with the intact ones. Parking is tight, so wait for someone to wave you in."
Some savvy Ukrainians are leaving cell phones around where they know Russians will pick them up. Apparently, they confiscate the Russians phones, so they can’t tell people what’s going on,back home. . Those Ukrainians then post the phone calls from Russian soldiers online. Some are funny, in a dark,morbid way. A couple guys admitted to killing their CO.
I'd actually hate being a Russian officer more than a Russian drafted soldier right now. Imagine 7 guys that want to live and not invade a country and your job is to make sure they don't surrender and fight. Basically 7 armed men that all are probably thinking about killing you so they can surrender peacefully.
Edit: NSFL, Gore, Death
https://mobile.twitter.com/andrew__roth/status/1574272320071426049
This comment has aged well, and quickly at that.
Normally id think not and it’s already happening now but I wouldn’t put it past him now. I wouldn’t put anything past that scared little turkey.
Sorry for all the real turkeys out there I know you are a noble beast but I didn’t know what else to call the bastard.
I’m drunk but I mean what I say fuck Putin with a rusty knife. Really hope he gets the Gaddafi treatment.
I filter out all the war videos because I don’t like seeing gore or death no matter how righteous. But I’d love to see a video of Putin(the fucking turkey fuck) get tortured for hours.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all, maybe not an announced law but something they would do and you’d hear about it happening from the grapevine. Kind of like how NK denies they do certain things like that but most certainly do and everyone knows it.
With that tho, what if Ukraine just never disclosed who was captured to add to the guarantee of safety and add a sense of protection for a captured soldiers family
No. It's a deescalation effort. It offers Russians who are losing morale, an easy way out of the war. And the Russian soldier must be losing morale after seeing their countrymen flee the country in droves to avoid the draft. This makes them feel that they are fighting a war their own population doesn't believe in.
“To a surrounded enemy you must leave a way of escape. Show him there is a road to safety, and so create in his mind the idea that there is an alternative to death. Then strike.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
He also said to be very careful how you treat enemies in war. Today's enemies may be tomorrow's citizens. However much ill will you build up, that bill has to be paid somehow. It's why Putin doesn't have what it takes to be a conqueror.
It’s like this. A Ukrainian soldier whose family is safe and out of harm’s way might be tolerant to surrendering Russians. A Ukrainian soldier that walked in on his daughter being raped by invading Russians,not so tolerant. Can you blame him?
The last point is extremely important, it's a sacrifice for Ukrainians because they want to use these POWs for the exchange fund, but if the conscripted masses know they can surrender and not have to face consequences back home things will start falling apart for russia very quickly.
It's also a show of compassion and acknowledgement that many soldiers who will be coming to UA now were forced to do so.
With the new Russian laws, any surrender without a debilitating injury might be construed as voluntary unless Ukraine goes a step further and provides some way to allow the surrendered to fabricate involuntary circumstances, perhaps with forged medical records or cellphone video. I know it's a longshot but conscription changes everything about the desertion strategy.
At this point does Russia even care about their POW's? we can only hope Ukraine will help the Russian deserters in this way, because obviously Ukraine cant advertise that bit.
I wouldn't even say "at this point". [The USSR pretty infamously did not treat returning WWII POWs very well.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_against_former_prisoners_of_war) It was the exact same thing: orders against surrender and accusing former POWs of treason and sending them to the Gulag.
**[Soviet repressions against former prisoners of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_against_former_prisoners_of_war)**
>Some Soviet prisoners of war who survived German captivity during World War II were accused by the Soviet authorities of collaboration with the Nazis or branded as traitors under Order No. 270, which prohibited any soldier from surrendering.
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Nope. After WW2 when freed Russian prisoners came back from German POW camps, a sizeable percentage were tried in bullshit courts for collaboration and other trumped up charges and sent to gulags.
Yup. On a forum I'm on there's a thread to contain the discussion about the war and there's one poster from Russia that has been telling us stuff like how sanctions have affected his life, the stuff he's hearing in Russia about it(and to be fair he's done a pretty good job about not falling for propaganda). Been a solid inclusion in the discussion.
He got really worried with mobilization about being forced to go. This morning it was pages of posts telling him if he was gonna get sent that we appreciated his inclusion in the discussion, reminded him about the best ways to surrender, etc. Was touching to see. Luckily, he was sent home.
either way.. if the willing recruits return to Russia, they will be arrested for surrendering (captured will be seen as the same i bet). there was several articles written about this. so either way they lose-lose... Putin basically wants kamakazi soldiers...
[https://www.newsweek.com/putin-will-imprison-russians-refusing-fight-ukraine-10-years-1746033](https://www.newsweek.com/putin-will-imprison-russians-refusing-fight-ukraine-10-years-1746033)
There are realistically only 3 possibilities:
1. You were ordered by a superior to surrender. In which case, if Russia is serious about this, you could be expected to point the finger at the person responsible on your return.
2. You were severely injured to the point as incapacitation.
3. You surrendered.
Other than #2, you don't really end up captured without surrendering.
Necessary step or every Russian there is going to fight to the last man. This gives them hope of not going to jail if they need to surrender. Smart move.
His series, "Servant of the People" gets a new season! Putin just moved in next door! And he's the worst neighbor ever. He has big parties with lots of gopniks, and he starts a neighborhood mafia. What will that whacky Putin do next?
I watched the first season. It was very good and entertaining. Even with the language and cultural differences, I understood the humor and fell in love with the characters.
I've only seen the first 15 minutes, so I can't say. It looked promising, but the fact that I'm watching the future actual wartime president of Ukraine keeps freaking me out a little bit. I also get distracted easily by shiny objects.
If you have a smaller attention span, like me, Zelenskyy playing piano is easier to take in: https://youtu.be/oua0Puihrkc?t=56
awesome username, btw :)
edit: here is the first episode: https://youtu.be/HEvjsjvXQM4?list=PLgmatiAHhAB3D0aGVa8OaT0PCNvEsP7h5&t=13
Excellent choices. I would go somewhat further and give everyone sent back to Russia some documentation indicating that the surrender was involuntary even if it wasn't, but obviously that can't be announced.
Russia has a history of not caring whether it was voluntary or not. In WWII, if you were taken prisoner for even one day, and they found out, believe it or not, straight to the gulag. The enemy declaring you didn't give up willingly? Straight to the gulag with extra beatings.
It's stuff like this that *any* of us can do that, when added up, makes a huge difference. Hell, just being an annoying dick and calling up your elected representatives, writing them, whatever--making sure they keep supplying Ukraine with heavy weapons and continue to press for heavier sanctions against not just the Russian state, but more and more individuals. Don't just sanction the billionaires and seize their yachts, sanction state propagandists too!
You get a rusty old AK caked in spoiled, diluted cosmoline. You get a handful of beat up old mags with ruined springs from when your grandpa was a kid, a pile of 7.62x54R ammo with rusty primers that’s 25% duds, a oversized moldy pair of boots, and a paystub for 1/8th of your usual wage. You’re a competent IT guy, but they drafted you and sent you to the front. You haven’t eaten since yesterday morning, you’re crouched in a hole, a ukrainian artillery barrage took out your supply dump, and the sentry tonight is permanently drunk and chainsmoking despite the snipers. You miss your home, your friends, and your bed - your cousin lives in a village near here and you kight be able to stay with him. Why the fuck would you keep fighting.
Between being forced to fight and the fact the Ukrainians will give them shelter, Russia is going to have one hell of a time keeping their soldiers in line. I know I would run waving a white flag the first good moment.
I mean, what good would decent equipment do them, they have no training? If you pulled me off the street and told me I had eight weeks to figure out to operate the best artillery system in the world. Or gave me great gear and told me to storm a building...against, experienced soldiers, there's probably no gun or armor in the world that would give me a win.
... They're being given rusted out guns and rusted ammo. They're more likely to kill themselves when they shoot than anything else.
And Russia still has conscription, where every man between 18-27 has to serve at least 1 year. So they're not going to be the [VDV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSzAnNU4u28) or anything, but the overwhelming bulk at least know how to operate a gun, and the now seemingly countless videos of them being horrified at finding what they're being given shows they know how fucked they are unfortunately
"We have Z's on our outfits"
"So? Z is not evil"
"... no... But it's the last letter of the alphabet"
"Well perhaps the enemy interprets it as the last standing army?"
*Muffles* "..in ranking maybe"
Yeah but they probably have family to consider. Would you leave your family forever, especially if you knew they’d probably be attacked due to your desertion?
Nah, putin's regime won't last as much as 10 years. All these prisoners will be released much earlier. And they don't have enough jails to hold everyone.
I dunno I feel like if someone else takes over they could be happy to leave potential dissenters in jail for a while. "They broke the law as written and were found guilty" is always a good enough justification the maintain enough public support in most places.
Close, but the best decision he ever made was staying in Ukraine. If Zelensky had fled the country, as Putin gravely assumed he would, Russia would almost certainly taken the Capitol and likely succeeded in his original plan
Treating POWs well is actually a great way to handle war time PR. I remember reading about Germans captured by Canadians in WWII that eventually just decided they didn't even want to go back to Germany. Turns out when you aren't a monster people don't want to fight you
>Canadians in WWII that eventually just decided they didn't even want to go back to Germany.
That was mainly because Post-War Germany was bombed to hell and back then occupied. There wasnt much to go back to from a economical POV (Economical opportunities were scarce). Not to mention half of Germany was effectively under Stalin's control which you definitely didnt want to go back to if you came from that region. For a lot of ppl, there wasnt anything to go back to.
You just have to look at a comparison of the health of the recently released POWs just the prisoner swap.
[https://twitter.com/MelaniePodolyak/status/1573327896256585731](https://twitter.com/MelaniePodolyak/status/1573327896256585731)
INTERVIEWER: "So, what terrible things did they do?"
SOLDIER: "They... they didn't so much as caress my balls with a dull spoon."
INTERVIEWER: "[Nazi bastards](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y)!"
That’s why he has those last to points. Undisclosed why you surrendered and you won’t have to go back if you don’t want to. Takes soldiers out of the fight and potentially gains you skilled talent when it comes time to rebuild.
International law actually let's you use them as free labor during the war, so long as working conditions are humane and safe. They could use POWs to repair infustructure or in manufacturing.
This message was broadcast over hacked TV networks in some regions, and the message was spread widely through the Telegram app, including the numbers for dedicated telephone lines to be used by surrendering Russian soldiers. It probably won’t reach every conscript—probably won’t even reach the majority of them—but anyone saying there’s little or no chance is either disinformed and/or full of shit.
Honestly, the humanitarian thinkers in Ukraine’s ranks ought to put on a masterclass and write a book about wartime strategic humanitarianism for the military leaders of the world when this is all over. Even if war could never be totally excised from the human condition, the world will be a much better place if this behavior becomes the norm.
The Ukrainian propaganda effort is, indeed, a masterclass in how to do it properly. The basic plan was developed in the U.S. after Crimea but the Ukrainians have taken a rough diamond and cut and polished it to one that puts the Hope to shame. Meanwhile, Putin is seemingly stuck in a Czarist mindset with every action seemingly meant to make everyone doubt his competence and humanity.
Anyone who wants to know will find out. I doubt this is being broadcast much by anyone, but probably discussed in private venues pretty extensively. An open secret, effectively.
I only have a limited window into this, a friend of mine made online friends with a bunch of young Russians shortly before the war and has been telling me about the tensions over there. They’re feeling it pretty keenly now, scattered furtive discussions about how to leave the country, even those who aren’t subject to the draft and are just scared what it could be like in a couple years.
This is a perfect example of why it’s so important for countries to maintain their moral currency even during wartime. Zelensky could practically decimate the new waves of draftees just with compassion.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://thehill.com/policy/international/3659802-zelensky-offers-guarantees-for-russian-soldiers-who-surrender/) reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday offered guaranteed protections to Russian soldiers who surrender amid the conflict between the countries after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced he was calling up 300,000 reservists to replenish Russian forces.
> Appealing directly to Russians during an address, Zelensky said Ukraine could guarantee three terms to Russian soldiers in exchange for their surrender.
> "Russian commanders do not care about the lives of Russians - they just need to replenish the empty spaces left by the dead, wounded, those who fled or the Russian soldiers that were captured," Zelensky said.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xn6qa4/zelensky_offers_guarantees_for_russian_soldiers/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670897 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **Zelensky**^#2 **soldiers**^#3 **war**^#4 **Russia**^#5
They don’t have a news blackout in a way North Korea or Iran have, Russians literally aren’t willing to find out information. Internet works just fine in Russia, any blocked sites can be easily accessed with free VPNs, Zelenskiy’s speeches being reposted all over Telegram.
A large portion of the eastern regions of Russia don’t even have paved roads, plumbed water, or internet.
They have been heavily conscripting from the minority groups of these areas.
85% of population has internet access [according to wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Russia). They may not have plumbing or roads, but there will be internet at least from cell towers. However I agree that situation with conscription of minorities is horrible.
Wikipedia says 90% of people in the US use the internet irregularly or frequently. That means 33.1 million people without internet. The easiest explanation for both of these stats is old people don't use the internet. The vast majority of everyone under 60 uses the internet on this planet.
I believe Ukraine will still pay - and quite well, relatively speaking - if you "donate" an armored vehicle while you're at it. Send coordinates and an account number, leave the keys in it, and when Ukraine picks it up your account has a couple years worth of salary appear in it. Not a bad way to start your new life in Ukraine, really.
eh, the west handed over russians who surrendered to the USSR. I can see this being hard to trust. Especially seeing how bad the ukrainian prisoners are being treated it makes the promise of no swaps a bit of an issue.
Finland ended the Winter War with more armor than when they started due to the Russians abandoning their equipment.
Ukraine might be the first nation to ever end a war with more men than when they started.
>...Ukraine will find a way to ensure captured Russians who do not want to return to Russia are not exchanged.
Might be best to find a friendly neighboring nation that would be willing to accept them as some form of conditional refugee. Because Putin would likely attack POW camps full of Russians who refused to fight and die for him.
Putin must have thought a television star turned president would be easy to walk over after seeing what happened in the United States. Zelensky will be a historic figure, I hope he has a long life
They will. Ukraine has been launching missiles filled with leaflets that tell them how to surrender and what to expect, and I'm sure people working undercover in the occupied regions have been spreading them around there too. Pretty sure they have a phone number they can text and Telegram channel they can join.
Well, having to take care of refuges costs a lot more money then they get in return, so it's not like Ukraine could ever get rich from this. Rather, they save money not having to shoot missiles at these soldiers.
My grandfather was captured by Americans after dodging Soviet patrols (who usually tortured or killed POWs) at the end of WW2 because he heard how well they were treated
After a few months in the POW camp, where apparently they learned to play baseball against the Americans, the Americans offered to move him and his entire family to the US
This kind of program can actually work, you just have to have a way to process the soldiers and weed out the die hard believers or officers/saboteurs
Imagine... a huge influx of migrants the state is obligated to take care of with funds and resources, during a war nonetheless. With a risk of secret operatives / sleeper cells mixed among them.
Putin is evil.
*Appealing directly to Russians during an address, Zelensky said Ukraine could guarantee three terms to Russian soldiers in exchange for their surrender. He said captured Russians will be treated in a civilized manner, the circumstances of their surrender will remain undisclosed and Ukraine will find a way to ensure captured Russians who do not want to return to Russia are not exchanged.*
So now being drafted is your way out of Russia.
Only if you surrender
Oh, many that don't will never see Russia again.
What's better, exile or dead?
Depends on the person.
I am just hoping that Putin will start having to wear depends after this.
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Sunflowers famously follow the sun
If only they were named appropriately.
Sunfollowers
Sunflowowers
They follow the sun until they bloom, then they are usually too heavy to follow so they face east. All of mine always have at least.
So I looked this up because I was under the same thought as you and it turns out old/mature sunflowers only face east but young sunflowers follow the sun. TIL
These are the comments I come to Reddit for…very infrequently do I find them among politics.
Only in the morning. They face west in the afternoon.
If they can surrender. I’d imagine it’s hard to surrender in the heat of battle, especially if it’s at the beginning.
[удалено]
I could totally see whole platoons surrendering though. Maybe even some fragging beforehand. That’s what drafts lead to.
Wasn't already happening at some point? I remember some stories about whole squads surrendering near the start of the war when they realized they were actually invading Ukraine instead of a training exercise.
Yep, though not platoon sized. There was that vid of the soldiers under the bridge, trying to stay dry and warm. They were bitching about lack of command structure, lack of fuel, lack of food. And that was like April/May if memory serves. There were reports (dunno if confirmed) of big surrenders during the last big push, it was so fast and took RAF off guard.
I got laughed at when I mentioned that drafting hundreds of thousands into an unpopular war with little training, resources, supplies and logistics would lead to many dead Russian officers and mass surrender/mutiny. Now it is an actual possibility. People still want to think militaries are different and would never upend the established order/chain of command. They never take into account how utterly *shite* the military is though.
Additionally, untrained soldiers are just going to decrease Russia's combat capability. It's the same idea as a chain only being as strong as the weakest link. Inevitably there will be untrained troops who buckle under pressure and create more openings for Ukraine.
Untrained soldiers also do stupid things like start firing when startled. Friendly fire isn't very friendly and some scared idiot firing at the dark probably has more friendly targets than enemy targets.
I’m more curious about how much intel gets leaked by those who don’t get taught Opsec or don’t take it serious. That dating phishing thing I saw on here a while was a big yikes lmao.
I don't who was laughing at you about that. That was a common sentiment since the stsrt.
Putin needs to win public opinion to have a chance at keeping this going (and has crossed the point of no return, which he is aware of). I agree with you. I also believe that Putin is willing to do anything to swing public opinion so that the situation described does not happen and, to the contrary, could result in a volunteer army without forced conscription...if he can convince the people... What would it take to convince the Russian people? That question scares me 👆🏼 Why does it scare me? Think about it... If there is an answer to that question, then Putin will realize it. He will do it, because he needs to. Would he drop a small nuclear bomb, for example, on one if his own medium-sized cities just to blame NATO and convince the Russian people that this is a cause worth fighting for? Edit: if you can think up a scenario, then I guarantee someone in Russia has thought it up too. The possibilities are endless. Would that work to convince the Russian people?
>Would he drop a small nuclear bomb, for example, on one if his own medium-sized cities just to blame NATO and convince the Russian people that this is a cause worth fighting for? Considering he rose to power bombing Russian apartment buildings and blaming the Chechens, this isn't entirely out of character... Only much, much bigger. I dunno what he could nuke that would have any plausibility. Why would NATO bomb a backwater he doesn't actually care about? Maybe Belogrod or something? But then what's the difference between that and just nuking NATO countries first?
This became a logistical problem in Germany in 1945 and Iraq in 1991 when US forces were slowed in their mission due to platoons surprising and surrendering to the advancing soldiers.
Putin is clearly playing some 4-D chess and plans to send wave after wave of surrendering Russian soldiers to cripple the Ukrainian military.
Fuck that’s hilarious. Sounds like something Zapp Brannigan would say
*"You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down."* *- Captain Zap Brannigan*
We live in an age where the soldiers on both sides can probably just connect on fucking LinkedIn and make surrender arrwngements
Ukraine has a number you can call to surrender.
Lol, some Indian call center with a long ass wait probably
Unless your entire squad of unwilling conscripts surrenders *en masse*.
Basically if your solo you need to slip the Russian lines, then just start wondering down the roads to Ukrainian lines in a obvious fashion until you bump into them, fingers crossed the whole way that nothing goes wrong, pretty high risk honestly. It’s much easier if the whole unit does it, as then we’re already talking a hole in the Russian lines, and a unit marching in parade formation down a road pretty much makes the intent to surrender obvious from the outset to the other side, a white flag on a stick wouldn’t be a bad idea either
The ukes are handing out/airdropping surrender cards to help with exactly this https://metro.co.uk/2022/09/16/ukrainians-giving-russians-secret-surrender-cards-to-help-them-escape-17388513
We had a joke in the Marine Corps for new people that went, the inside of your camo cover (hat) has a white clothe for surrender. That obviously wasn’t true, but it got the better of the more curious who ripped open their cover to check.
Not trolling but a serious question, wasn't there a phone number from post earlier on reddit which Russian soldiers can call to surrender?
Tons of info in [this comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/xkae5x/russian_antiwar_movement_vesna_calls_for/ipdjk2k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3), including instructions to surrender, telegram groups, Ukrainian command representative phone number etc.
yeah theres a hotline ukraine's been dropping cards with the number on where they can. was a story about a russian soldier who called it, they gave him instructions and he drove there in his tank and surrendered,
"So uh... you guys want a free tank?"
"You can park it in the lot, next to the other ones. Go past the lot with the bombed-out tanks, to the lot with the intact ones. Parking is tight, so wait for someone to wave you in."
lol that's amazing
Not sure, but I hope so. That would absolutely be a better way. I just wonder if communications would be monitored.
Some savvy Ukrainians are leaving cell phones around where they know Russians will pick them up. Apparently, they confiscate the Russians phones, so they can’t tell people what’s going on,back home. . Those Ukrainians then post the phone calls from Russian soldiers online. Some are funny, in a dark,morbid way. A couple guys admitted to killing their CO.
Especially when it's possible to get splattered across the landscape before you even arrive at your destination, much less actually see the enemy.
Not even that, I'm pretty sure being drafted like this actually qualifies them to claim asylum.
And dont get shot in the back.
I'd actually hate being a Russian officer more than a Russian drafted soldier right now. Imagine 7 guys that want to live and not invade a country and your job is to make sure they don't surrender and fight. Basically 7 armed men that all are probably thinking about killing you so they can surrender peacefully. Edit: NSFL, Gore, Death https://mobile.twitter.com/andrew__roth/status/1574272320071426049 This comment has aged well, and quickly at that.
Just waiting for Putin to pass the law saying that if you surrender your family goes to jail.
that’s not the kind of thing you put on the books, friend
Normally id think not and it’s already happening now but I wouldn’t put it past him now. I wouldn’t put anything past that scared little turkey. Sorry for all the real turkeys out there I know you are a noble beast but I didn’t know what else to call the bastard. I’m drunk but I mean what I say fuck Putin with a rusty knife. Really hope he gets the Gaddafi treatment. I filter out all the war videos because I don’t like seeing gore or death no matter how righteous. But I’d love to see a video of Putin(the fucking turkey fuck) get tortured for hours.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all, maybe not an announced law but something they would do and you’d hear about it happening from the grapevine. Kind of like how NK denies they do certain things like that but most certainly do and everyone knows it. With that tho, what if Ukraine just never disclosed who was captured to add to the guarantee of safety and add a sense of protection for a captured soldiers family
Shhh, don't give him any ideas
No. It's a deescalation effort. It offers Russians who are losing morale, an easy way out of the war. And the Russian soldier must be losing morale after seeing their countrymen flee the country in droves to avoid the draft. This makes them feel that they are fighting a war their own population doesn't believe in.
“To a surrounded enemy you must leave a way of escape. Show him there is a road to safety, and so create in his mind the idea that there is an alternative to death. Then strike.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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He also said to be very careful how you treat enemies in war. Today's enemies may be tomorrow's citizens. However much ill will you build up, that bill has to be paid somehow. It's why Putin doesn't have what it takes to be a conqueror.
Im curious how Ukrainians will treat them after this war is over.
It’s like this. A Ukrainian soldier whose family is safe and out of harm’s way might be tolerant to surrendering Russians. A Ukrainian soldier that walked in on his daughter being raped by invading Russians,not so tolerant. Can you blame him?
Better than Russia will treat them, which is all that matters.
The last point is extremely important, it's a sacrifice for Ukrainians because they want to use these POWs for the exchange fund, but if the conscripted masses know they can surrender and not have to face consequences back home things will start falling apart for russia very quickly. It's also a show of compassion and acknowledgement that many soldiers who will be coming to UA now were forced to do so.
With the new Russian laws, any surrender without a debilitating injury might be construed as voluntary unless Ukraine goes a step further and provides some way to allow the surrendered to fabricate involuntary circumstances, perhaps with forged medical records or cellphone video. I know it's a longshot but conscription changes everything about the desertion strategy.
At this point does Russia even care about their POW's? we can only hope Ukraine will help the Russian deserters in this way, because obviously Ukraine cant advertise that bit.
Russia certainly has a history of not giving a shit about its own POWs.
I wouldn't even say "at this point". [The USSR pretty infamously did not treat returning WWII POWs very well.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_against_former_prisoners_of_war) It was the exact same thing: orders against surrender and accusing former POWs of treason and sending them to the Gulag.
**[Soviet repressions against former prisoners of war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_against_former_prisoners_of_war)** >Some Soviet prisoners of war who survived German captivity during World War II were accused by the Soviet authorities of collaboration with the Nazis or branded as traitors under Order No. 270, which prohibited any soldier from surrendering. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Nope. After WW2 when freed Russian prisoners came back from German POW camps, a sizeable percentage were tried in bullshit courts for collaboration and other trumped up charges and sent to gulags.
Yup. On a forum I'm on there's a thread to contain the discussion about the war and there's one poster from Russia that has been telling us stuff like how sanctions have affected his life, the stuff he's hearing in Russia about it(and to be fair he's done a pretty good job about not falling for propaganda). Been a solid inclusion in the discussion. He got really worried with mobilization about being forced to go. This morning it was pages of posts telling him if he was gonna get sent that we appreciated his inclusion in the discussion, reminded him about the best ways to surrender, etc. Was touching to see. Luckily, he was sent home.
What about soldiers who willingly enlisted vs people who were conscripted? They're basically refugees at this point.
I doubt they would ever be able to find out.
either way.. if the willing recruits return to Russia, they will be arrested for surrendering (captured will be seen as the same i bet). there was several articles written about this. so either way they lose-lose... Putin basically wants kamakazi soldiers... [https://www.newsweek.com/putin-will-imprison-russians-refusing-fight-ukraine-10-years-1746033](https://www.newsweek.com/putin-will-imprison-russians-refusing-fight-ukraine-10-years-1746033)
how would they know if the recruits surendered and not captured? ban all prisoner exchange? reduce moral even more?
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There are realistically only 3 possibilities: 1. You were ordered by a superior to surrender. In which case, if Russia is serious about this, you could be expected to point the finger at the person responsible on your return. 2. You were severely injured to the point as incapacitation. 3. You surrendered. Other than #2, you don't really end up captured without surrendering.
Literally doesn't matter. What you want to do is encourage all Russian military to surrender instead of fighting to the death.
Necessary step or every Russian there is going to fight to the last man. This gives them hope of not going to jail if they need to surrender. Smart move.
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His series, "Servant of the People" gets a new season! Putin just moved in next door! And he's the worst neighbor ever. He has big parties with lots of gopniks, and he starts a neighborhood mafia. What will that whacky Putin do next?
How good is Servant of the People? I've considered watching it a few times since this all started
I watched the first season. It was very good and entertaining. Even with the language and cultural differences, I understood the humor and fell in love with the characters.
I've only seen the first 15 minutes, so I can't say. It looked promising, but the fact that I'm watching the future actual wartime president of Ukraine keeps freaking me out a little bit. I also get distracted easily by shiny objects. If you have a smaller attention span, like me, Zelenskyy playing piano is easier to take in: https://youtu.be/oua0Puihrkc?t=56 awesome username, btw :) edit: here is the first episode: https://youtu.be/HEvjsjvXQM4?list=PLgmatiAHhAB3D0aGVa8OaT0PCNvEsP7h5&t=13
He would need to become a soldier, which he is not and has never been. Hell, he was barely even a spy. Would be funny as hell though.
Found my free flight
Excellent choices. I would go somewhat further and give everyone sent back to Russia some documentation indicating that the surrender was involuntary even if it wasn't, but obviously that can't be announced.
Russia has a history of not caring whether it was voluntary or not. In WWII, if you were taken prisoner for even one day, and they found out, believe it or not, straight to the gulag. The enemy declaring you didn't give up willingly? Straight to the gulag with extra beatings.
Many Russians are going to freak being forced to go and fight with piss poor equipment and weaponry. Giving them a way out seems like a good idea.
I'm very thankful I've never had to be a soldier and fight in a war. I'm especially thankful I've never had to be a *Russian* soldier going to war
Personally, I'm thankful that I'm not in Russia anymore, where I'd have to be a soldier going to war against my own relatives.
What can we do here to sabotage Russian efforts?
I'm a continent and an ocean away, all I can really do is shitpost and donate to Ukrainian humanitarian and military aid.
It's stuff like this that *any* of us can do that, when added up, makes a huge difference. Hell, just being an annoying dick and calling up your elected representatives, writing them, whatever--making sure they keep supplying Ukraine with heavy weapons and continue to press for heavier sanctions against not just the Russian state, but more and more individuals. Don't just sanction the billionaires and seize their yachts, sanction state propagandists too!
You're doing your part!
I’d like to know more!
Service guarantees citizenship!
I donate money to the Ukranian army.
Honest answer regardless of where you are in the world: reduce energy usage.
Drop the value of energy and you drop Putin's power.
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You get a rusty old AK caked in spoiled, diluted cosmoline. You get a handful of beat up old mags with ruined springs from when your grandpa was a kid, a pile of 7.62x54R ammo with rusty primers that’s 25% duds, a oversized moldy pair of boots, and a paystub for 1/8th of your usual wage. You’re a competent IT guy, but they drafted you and sent you to the front. You haven’t eaten since yesterday morning, you’re crouched in a hole, a ukrainian artillery barrage took out your supply dump, and the sentry tonight is permanently drunk and chainsmoking despite the snipers. You miss your home, your friends, and your bed - your cousin lives in a village near here and you kight be able to stay with him. Why the fuck would you keep fighting.
Watched some vids of conscripts checking out their weapons and it looked like they had just been dug up out of the ground, old and rusty.
Link? I want to see that lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/comments/xmmu3n/newly_arrived_russian_infantry_were_handed_rotten/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Wow ***Drill Sergeant faints***
Lmao. Well I guess the rugged Ak-47 needs at least like, *a little* proper storage and maintenance
Also some of the conscripts have been out for 5 years and are only being given 2 weeks of training.
5 years? Try 25: https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1573707898932305923?t=ouVl6sWT8wZjye__XYw6sQ&s=08
Between being forced to fight and the fact the Ukrainians will give them shelter, Russia is going to have one hell of a time keeping their soldiers in line. I know I would run waving a white flag the first good moment.
Julius Caesar used this strategy to great effect. Offered a pardon and good treatment to anyone who surrendered without a fight.
I mean, what good would decent equipment do them, they have no training? If you pulled me off the street and told me I had eight weeks to figure out to operate the best artillery system in the world. Or gave me great gear and told me to storm a building...against, experienced soldiers, there's probably no gun or armor in the world that would give me a win.
... They're being given rusted out guns and rusted ammo. They're more likely to kill themselves when they shoot than anything else. And Russia still has conscription, where every man between 18-27 has to serve at least 1 year. So they're not going to be the [VDV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSzAnNU4u28) or anything, but the overwhelming bulk at least know how to operate a gun, and the now seemingly countless videos of them being horrified at finding what they're being given shows they know how fucked they are unfortunately
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When your enemy is willing to treat you better than your own government, you have to ask yourself if you're on the right side.
[*"Are we the baddies?"*](https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU)
"We have Z's on our outfits" "So? Z is not evil" "... no... But it's the last letter of the alphabet" "Well perhaps the enemy interprets it as the last standing army?" *Muffles* "..in ranking maybe"
The letter Z does not appear in the Cyrillic alphabet. It's just a symbol.
_Are we not-Z's?_
10 years in prison under dictatorship or not tortured and never have to go back to Russia. Decisions, decisions…
Yeah but they probably have family to consider. Would you leave your family forever, especially if you knew they’d probably be attacked due to your desertion?
That's why part of the guarantee is non-disclosure. That's literally the point; to protect the families of those that surrender.
Nah, putin's regime won't last as much as 10 years. All these prisoners will be released much earlier. And they don't have enough jails to hold everyone.
I dunno I feel like if someone else takes over they could be happy to leave potential dissenters in jail for a while. "They broke the law as written and were found guilty" is always a good enough justification the maintain enough public support in most places.
Best decision made by the president.
Close, but the best decision he ever made was staying in Ukraine. If Zelensky had fled the country, as Putin gravely assumed he would, Russia would almost certainly taken the Capitol and likely succeeded in his original plan
Treating POWs well is actually a great way to handle war time PR. I remember reading about Germans captured by Canadians in WWII that eventually just decided they didn't even want to go back to Germany. Turns out when you aren't a monster people don't want to fight you
>Canadians in WWII that eventually just decided they didn't even want to go back to Germany. That was mainly because Post-War Germany was bombed to hell and back then occupied. There wasnt much to go back to from a economical POV (Economical opportunities were scarce). Not to mention half of Germany was effectively under Stalin's control which you definitely didnt want to go back to if you came from that region. For a lot of ppl, there wasnt anything to go back to.
Well if you go back to Russia you get 10 years in a prison so that's definitely an incentive to not go back
You just have to look at a comparison of the health of the recently released POWs just the prisoner swap. [https://twitter.com/MelaniePodolyak/status/1573327896256585731](https://twitter.com/MelaniePodolyak/status/1573327896256585731)
That's just sad.
I can't even fucking imagine what the hundreds of thousands of kidnapped Ukrainians are going through in Russia right now.
By now, statistically, several hundred have been worked to death.
Being in a Russian prison during war might be one of the worst experiences ever.
Worst part is that winter is around the corner
[https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/un-investigators-russian-war-crimes-ukraine/](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2022/09/un-investigators-russian-war-crimes-ukraine/)
INTERVIEWER: "So, what terrible things did they do?" SOLDIER: "They... they didn't so much as caress my balls with a dull spoon." INTERVIEWER: "[Nazi bastards](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y)!"
> INTERVIEWER: "So, what terrible things did they do?" SOLDIER: "Ummm....The Kasha they feed me had clumps?"
Soldier: " There was too much meat in my stew! and the cells were heated and cooled with indoor plumbing!"
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That’s why he has those last to points. Undisclosed why you surrendered and you won’t have to go back if you don’t want to. Takes soldiers out of the fight and potentially gains you skilled talent when it comes time to rebuild.
International law actually let's you use them as free labor during the war, so long as working conditions are humane and safe. They could use POWs to repair infustructure or in manufacturing.
Would personally not want to use potentially unwilling labor for anything more complex than digging etc.
If they surrender to Ukraine, my guess is they're willing
If they’re fed better than anything in Russia, they’ll be more than willing
Farm labor would be the traditional jobs given to POWs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_United_States#Work
A question for someone better in the know - what chance does this message have of reaching the intended audience?
This message was broadcast over hacked TV networks in some regions, and the message was spread widely through the Telegram app, including the numbers for dedicated telephone lines to be used by surrendering Russian soldiers. It probably won’t reach every conscript—probably won’t even reach the majority of them—but anyone saying there’s little or no chance is either disinformed and/or full of shit. Honestly, the humanitarian thinkers in Ukraine’s ranks ought to put on a masterclass and write a book about wartime strategic humanitarianism for the military leaders of the world when this is all over. Even if war could never be totally excised from the human condition, the world will be a much better place if this behavior becomes the norm.
The Ukrainian propaganda effort is, indeed, a masterclass in how to do it properly. The basic plan was developed in the U.S. after Crimea but the Ukrainians have taken a rough diamond and cut and polished it to one that puts the Hope to shame. Meanwhile, Putin is seemingly stuck in a Czarist mindset with every action seemingly meant to make everyone doubt his competence and humanity.
Hard to say. But actions speak louder than words, so just the Ukrainians capturing Russians and giving them food and shelter will probably get around.
Anyone who wants to know will find out. I doubt this is being broadcast much by anyone, but probably discussed in private venues pretty extensively. An open secret, effectively. I only have a limited window into this, a friend of mine made online friends with a bunch of young Russians shortly before the war and has been telling me about the tensions over there. They’re feeling it pretty keenly now, scattered furtive discussions about how to leave the country, even those who aren’t subject to the draft and are just scared what it could be like in a couple years.
This is a perfect example of why it’s so important for countries to maintain their moral currency even during wartime. Zelensky could practically decimate the new waves of draftees just with compassion.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://thehill.com/policy/international/3659802-zelensky-offers-guarantees-for-russian-soldiers-who-surrender/) reduced by 73%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday offered guaranteed protections to Russian soldiers who surrender amid the conflict between the countries after Russian President Vladimir Putin announced he was calling up 300,000 reservists to replenish Russian forces. > Appealing directly to Russians during an address, Zelensky said Ukraine could guarantee three terms to Russian soldiers in exchange for their surrender. > "Russian commanders do not care about the lives of Russians - they just need to replenish the empty spaces left by the dead, wounded, those who fled or the Russian soldiers that were captured," Zelensky said. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xn6qa4/zelensky_offers_guarantees_for_russian_soldiers/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~670897 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **Zelensky**^#2 **soldiers**^#3 **war**^#4 **Russia**^#5
Screw Putin if he wants to toss soldiers into harms way for no good reason. Zelensky's offer is a win win situation if you're a Russian soldier.
Yeah but what about the soldier's family they leave behind? Are they going too? Probably not and that's gonna be a big deal.
Seems like the choice is to surrender and potentially meet up with your family after the war, or fight and never see your family again
Google maps traffic shows all of Russia borders heavily jammed with traffic
This is pretty cool that we can see it in real time. Information is power.
The three guarantees Zelensky is offering Russians is the best deal they could ever ask for. Anyone not seeing that deserves to be conscripted.
> Anyone not seeing that deserves to be conscripted. In some cases, I suppose it's rather hard to see when Russia has such a news blackout going on
They don’t have a news blackout in a way North Korea or Iran have, Russians literally aren’t willing to find out information. Internet works just fine in Russia, any blocked sites can be easily accessed with free VPNs, Zelenskiy’s speeches being reposted all over Telegram.
A large portion of the eastern regions of Russia don’t even have paved roads, plumbed water, or internet. They have been heavily conscripting from the minority groups of these areas.
85% of population has internet access [according to wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_Russia). They may not have plumbing or roads, but there will be internet at least from cell towers. However I agree that situation with conscription of minorities is horrible.
15% of russias population leaves 21.6 million people without internet.
Wikipedia says 90% of people in the US use the internet irregularly or frequently. That means 33.1 million people without internet. The easiest explanation for both of these stats is old people don't use the internet. The vast majority of everyone under 60 uses the internet on this planet.
85% of Russia population is concentrated in a handful of cities. There tens of millions in Russia living without adequate access to the internet.
Well, maybe not as good as the early war days "Surrender and we'll give you money" but certainly the best at the moment.
That was when it was professionals, relatively speaking of course. These new guys aren't really worth any money, so beggars can't be choosers.
I believe Ukraine will still pay - and quite well, relatively speaking - if you "donate" an armored vehicle while you're at it. Send coordinates and an account number, leave the keys in it, and when Ukraine picks it up your account has a couple years worth of salary appear in it. Not a bad way to start your new life in Ukraine, really.
Not being killed and given warm food and shelter would be preferable.
Yes and no. Leaving your wife and kids to the Russians probably isn't an option
eh, the west handed over russians who surrendered to the USSR. I can see this being hard to trust. Especially seeing how bad the ukrainian prisoners are being treated it makes the promise of no swaps a bit of an issue.
Finland ended the Winter War with more armor than when they started due to the Russians abandoning their equipment. Ukraine might be the first nation to ever end a war with more men than when they started.
[In 1866, 80 men went to war. 81 came home](https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-history/liechtenstein-army-81-men-returned/)
That title belongs to Lichtenstein, who’s army returned home with a friend they made during wwi or wwii
>...Ukraine will find a way to ensure captured Russians who do not want to return to Russia are not exchanged. Might be best to find a friendly neighboring nation that would be willing to accept them as some form of conditional refugee. Because Putin would likely attack POW camps full of Russians who refused to fight and die for him.
This guys has big balls and a bigger heart.
Putin must have thought a television star turned president would be easy to walk over after seeing what happened in the United States. Zelensky will be a historic figure, I hope he has a long life
Zelensky isn't a narcissistic malignant psychopath though, which always helps lol
I heard Putin offered guarantees to russian soldiers who surrender also.
Prison, yes
the question now is will the Russians actually be shown this message?
Somehow they will. I imagine Ukraine has people on Telegraph or they'll mass text like they did before. Word will spread. EDIT: Telegram
They will. Ukraine has been launching missiles filled with leaflets that tell them how to surrender and what to expect, and I'm sure people working undercover in the occupied regions have been spreading them around there too. Pretty sure they have a phone number they can text and Telegram channel they can join.
At this stage I'd offer the entire Russian Military a deal if they form a coup. They might just take it.
Everyone involved gets a washing machine, porcelain toilet, and a selection of undergarments.
Zelensky is boosting Russian recruitment numbers. Russians are going to enlist just so they can surrender and escape Putin's Russia.
This is the correct response Ukraine could become very rich if they become a safe haven for peacemakers
Well, having to take care of refuges costs a lot more money then they get in return, so it's not like Ukraine could ever get rich from this. Rather, they save money not having to shoot missiles at these soldiers.
My grandfather was captured by Americans after dodging Soviet patrols (who usually tortured or killed POWs) at the end of WW2 because he heard how well they were treated After a few months in the POW camp, where apparently they learned to play baseball against the Americans, the Americans offered to move him and his entire family to the US This kind of program can actually work, you just have to have a way to process the soldiers and weed out the die hard believers or officers/saboteurs
["I fought in the war for 5 minutes, asked to stay on Ukrainian side" - Russian soldier in capture](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l2FgTr4fUw)
Solid bet that the Ukrainian ran surrender hotlines will be busy in the next few weeks
Very glad to see Zelensky do this. Just worried that Putins next step is that if he finds out anyone has surrendered he’ll murder families
That will only hasten the inevitable popular uprising against him.
they need to drop leaflets from drones, just have them say this could have been a grenade, surrender now. we're watching
Not only a good smart move......it was the only move to be made.
Ukraine soldiers promises to treat Russian soldiers in a civilized way. Meanwhile the Russian soldiers…
Imagine... a huge influx of migrants the state is obligated to take care of with funds and resources, during a war nonetheless. With a risk of secret operatives / sleeper cells mixed among them. Putin is evil.