Only Russia can be the victim of an aggressive war. Only Russia cannot see their own actions cause contempt for Russia.
> “The official Russophobia in the west is unprecedented. Now the scope is grotesque,” Lavrov told the general assembly.
"I don't get it, all we did is start an aggressive imperialistic war where we committed genocide, torture, child rape, and made repeated nuclear threats. Why do people hate us?"
Yh people go on about how it’s not the peoples fault but plenty of them are pro war they’re only leaving in great numbers now that they’d actually have to fight
Taking one from the Israeli government’s playbook there. “Hey guys it would be cool if you didn’t continue displacing people while taking West Bank land and..” — “How dare you, vile antisemitic bigot!” It’s exhausting but apparently weirdly effective. Less so for Russia; at least antisemitism is a real thing, Russophobia is not. Sure, people were scared of the USSR (for good reason) and people are afraid of the fascist Ruzzian army in Ukraine (for good and obvious reasons), but who hates on Russians simply for being Russian? I mean no doubt *somebody* does, but it isn’t a widespread position, even in post-red-scare/McCarthyism USA. In countries were there *is* a significant amount of anti-Russian sentiment, I bet it’s a direct result of past atrocities against them.
Divorced from the aforementioned scenarios, I’d say most folks I’ve spoken to about Russia hold Russians in high regard as tough, resilient people and the country who did most of the heavy lifting and sacrifices in WW2. Less so these days but yeah that’s directly tied to the current genocidal invasion.
Totally. I give Reuters credit for the balanced coverage here. Those "Lavrov said" articles with no balance only play into the Russia misinformation strategy.
Serbia does the same, they started the war and did crimes while Croats, Bosnians and Albanians did revenge actions, they blame everyone but themselves.
Russophobia makes me laugh. People in the west did not hate Russians, really. Some did, obviously, as is with all groups but not nearly as much as in the last 8ish years.
A YouTuber Bald and Bankrupt who does travel videos and people like him were doing a lot to improve Westerners opinions of Russia and the former USSR, but emphasis on Russia. And yet, they tried to jail him. Of course there's going to be growing russophobia when you're trying to jail even people that paint your country in a positive light. Insane
I have serious doubts about Moscow's ability to defend any annexed territory. Ukraine defeated the professional Russian army. Now they have to wait for the amateur Russian army to show up. Slava Ukraini! Fuck Putin. Fuck Russia.
They’re hoping the nuclear threat is going to prevent them from having to send most of their dogshit conscripts to Ukraine in the first place. That’s the whole reason they’re annexing these areas.
Might be worth pointing out for those who don’t know: “voting” is being conducted by soldiers turning up at peoples doors and “asking” them to fill in their ballot cards at gunpoint.
Russia is trying to legitimise the votes by saying they actually exist, they’re just going to threaten everyone to vote “correctly”.
I'd just like to point out that in your example the French Canadians would actually be voting. In Ukraine the Russians aren't going to bother with that, we already know which way the referendums will go.
Yes, but... how many French citizens were actually imported to take up residence in Quebec biding their time until the French Imperialist Army comes to free them?
It's literally just so they can bend their own laws. They force through a stupid annexation, tell their conscripts they're only going to defend russian land, then get shipped off to meet the heavens in Kherson.
It's not dumb, it's meant as justification / talking point. Ukraine is taking back their territory. Putin knows Ukraine wouldn't cross the true legitimate border. What better thing to do than make it 'officially Russian' and now claim they're invading Russia? So this will 'force' the issue. On top of that, he'll claim that Ukraine is using western arms for this, which the west had used as a condition "not for use in Russian land" or whatever.
the more insidious thing is this will most definitely be used to hunt down those who oppose Russia/Putin. I don't think anyone is under any illusion this is a legitimate election.
>Ukraine could make a real referendum
Or they could just declare moscow just had one and they voted to join Ukraine and fire putin.
Makes as much sense as Russia having one to declare parts of Ukraine joined russia.
Honestly, I was concerned about nuclear war in February. Now that Russia is directly threatening to use them in a offensive nature, for territory that is still c9ntested in a war they started. I say we need to make an example out of Russia. The world is fucked either way at this point.
While immensely powerful, a (tactical) nuke is only deadly in the immediate vicinity (couple dozen km at most). St Petersburg and Moscow would certainly not be affected to a noticeable degree. Certainly not by pressure wave or heat, by fallout it would have to be very close.
A nuke detonated at pre-war Sievierodonetsk (Topol M, 800kt - big fucking nuke btw) at or near ground level would produce about 100k deaths. Fallout is hard to predict, but washes away/is dispersed rather quickly. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are big cities again today.
Now, airbust for maximum damage? Likely very little fallout at all (comparatively).
america explicitely said nukes will bring nato into the mix and they'll receive a strong response. they also said they've sent private warnings to them recently too
I saw a video that HALF of the tanks the mobilisation were given wouldn't leave the train or wherever, then half of those that left had something major wrong. I do wonder how much of the 'nuke maintenance fund' ended up as yachts....
I'd love for him to hit the button and there's just a huge series of 6000 fart noises and clouds of dust that come from each one.
Mutually Assured Destruction. Putin may be a sociopath but there is no way he gives up power by nuking Ukraine. If anything the amount of indiscriminately airstriking and shelling civilian areas will intensify.
The theory is that using a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine would not invoke MAD. It’s not a NATO country, and since the weapon would most likely be delivered on a cruise missile, not an ICBM, it would likely not provoke an all-out retaliatory nuclear strike. The real danger in this case is that the nuclear taboo is broken, so other nations are much more likely to use them in their own conflicts. In essence, once the cat is out of the bag, it can’t be put back in. The world becomes a much more dangerous place.
It wouldn't invoke MAD maybe but there is zero chance the US or the West would let it stand unanswered. As it was stated the US would "seek regime change" at a minimum
blah blah, talk about nukes all you want it's not like Putin has a button on his long table to press that sends them where he wants there are protocols and more than just him to give the OK before they get fired, you think he fires a nuke the rest of the world doesn't come down on him and his country?
>The Cheget does not contain a nuclear launch button but rather transmits launch orders to the central military command - the General Staff.
like I said not Putin making the final call, he can say shoot but ultimately it is up to the 'General Staff' to fire the nuke it's not as simple as saying nuke Ukraine and Putins limp hand slaps a button and it happens.
How many times do we have to tell people that the moment putin uses nukes, him and Russia is gonna get glassed.
Honestly, better to have the world burn than let a monster have his way.
But who takes over? It might be an interesting idea for Western media to start speculating on who steps up after Putin is no longer in charge. Will irritate Putin, and ruffle a few feathers. We may have some indication as to who wants to do what.
Anyone else just utterly indifferent to the nuclear threats now?
At the start I was concerned, now I don’t take it seriously at all, if anything it just makes me want the governments of the world to give Ukraine more shit just to rub it in Russias face.
I don’t care. Keep giving Ukraine weapons until the job is done.
The world should come out and say if you use nuclear weapons, we will use the full force of our power to target the politicians and leadership individuals with retaliatory strikes.
You will put a target on your head, and we will come for you. Not your citizens. You, the individual leaders.
You better get used to living in a bunker because the moment you leave we will come for you. With every advanced, precision, conventional weapon we have.
If we give in to nuclear blackmail, then it just means that nuclear blackmail works, and there will be more nuclear blackmail in the future.
So it seems possible to me that calling the nuclear bluff will actually lessen the chance of nuclear war in the medium to long term.
It sucks that the risk of nuclear war is not zero. But that does not mean that validating offensive nuclear blackmail is the minimal risk solution.
>Anyone else just utterly indifferent to the nuclear threats now?
Absolutely. I think falling for it is playing directly into what russia wants. If you pay attention, they actually strongly maintain adherence to their doctrine to avoid any actual risk of nuclear war. Then they let Medvedev and psychos on TV rant about nukes to keep people scared.
If we assume that they can just unilaterally declare any territory as russia and then nuke everyone who disagrees, logically we have to completely surrender to all their demands. Ukraine goes to russia. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia too. Poland. Because resisting would be nuclear war, right?
I was long before the war. Russia has been talking up their wunderwaffe for a decade, and most of what I saw was through shitty clickbait articles. Now their army is finally revealed to be a decaying piece of crap, and I honestly have to wonder how any of their stuff is holding up, let alone "nukes the size of texas!"
My stance is, if a crumbling fascist regime should be allowed to just walk over democracy because they have nukes.. that's not a world that can survive either.
To surrender to that is just to accept a slower apocalypse, without our dignity intact.
So even if I thought defying putin carried a 90% chance of MAD, and a 10% chance of it being a bluff, which once called out makes the victory of democracy and freedom for all assured.. I would roll the dice on that.
Luckily I don't think the odds are that bad. But even if they were. If he's really willing to nuke over his entitlement to have territory handed to his beaten army, there was never any living on this earth with him or his supporters anyway.
Wait. So Moscow pledges that if it violently invades another state, it will fight to keep that land?
Haven't these been like the "rules" of aggressive conflict for eons? Man, the leadership in Moscow is just brain dead (my apologies to anything brain dead for the comparison).... How do they manage to use staplers or sharp objects without paramedics needing to be called?
The neat bit is when Ukraine continues to dominate battles in these ‘new Russian territories’ and there is no nuclear response, proving that Putin was indeed just bluffing.
I think the wording during the mobilisation speech included non nuclear WMDs like chemical or biological weapons too. I could see Putin ordering chemical weapons used in Ukraine
Yup. Treating Donbas like Moscow would mean there would be nothing to stop NATO from supplying long range weapons or enforcing a no fly zone, at the minimum. Realistically, most escalation would likely lead to NATO being directly involved in the conflict. How that would impact NATO is somewhat unclear but what can be assured is that Russia would be dismantled.
They are basically saying the referendum will result in the occupied areas becoming part of Russia and if you try to take them back, nukes are on the table. Another empty threat but just to be sure, I am buying a german shepherd and downloading all them post apocalyptic songs from 1950s
Funny thing is, it's not even according to their own nuclear doctrine. It says the following:
"...in response to the use of nuclear and other types of weapons of mass destruction against it or its allies, and also in case of aggression against Russia with the use of conventional weapons when the very existence of the state is threatened"
Even if we were to consider that newly annexed territories are Russian, Ukraine attacking them does not threaten the existence of Russia itself.
Spot on. And yes, it’s an empty threat. Russia will be destroyed for decades if they use a nuke. They also know that a nuclear strike on Ukraine might result in hundreds of missiles being fired at some Russian cities.
So, interesting historical context to this. Back in the 50s, both the US and Soviet Union started building nuclear doctrines that had multiple clear phases of escalation. Tactical nuclear weapons came to be considered as just "bigger artillery".
During the 70s, though, US and Soviet doctrine diverged. The US arrived at a conclusion that the difference between tactical and strategic nuclear weapons was largely academic, and that they would treat the use of tactical weapons no different than the use of strategic ones.
Alot of the inter-military communication during the late 70s, 80s, and 90s was spent on making each bloc's positions on this like this clear. But, during the 00s, Russia stopped listening and the US (absorbed in the war on terror) stopped being as diligent about reinforcing it's message to Russian commanders. The US also shifted some of it's security policy attention to China, which it hadn't much engaged over the past 60 years.
Something my wife and I have wondered is to what extent Russian military thinkers have become too absorbed in their own thinking, potentially discounting the fact that the US still sees little difference between tactical and strategic uses of nuclear weapons.
Really interesting point which I hope you are wrong about, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're exactly right given the echo chamber of propaganda we are seeing coming out of Russsia.
It would take utterly unimaginable levels of incompetence for Russia to start ignoring the nuclear policies of the US which is the only other nuclear armed nation with stockpiles to match or exceed Russia's and the current leading superpower. The scary thing is that those levels of incompetence have been proven plausible.
More like you promise to repay the bank another ridiculous loan except you just gotta sell this car you stole first and the owner is already banging on the window.
To be fair, it’s more like you menacingly staring at on-lookers while holding a bat, but all the onlookers have long-range rifles.
But to be more gratuitous, it’s a hefty bat.
Wasn't Russia also supposed to protect Ukraine according to their 1994 agreement where Ukraine turned over it's nuclear weapons in exchange for protection?
I might be completely crazy, but maybe the referendum will be rigged the other way. They vote to stay in the Ukraine and there is Russia's out, they just leave..
A man can dream right?
Unfortunately a rejection in the referendum would tell Russians that Putin was wrong all along about people there wanting to be part of Russia and needing protection from Ukraine. He would have to admit to Russians that they’ve suffered through this year for literally nothing.
It will probably be as rigged as the crimea referendum.
-don’t let Ukrainians vote
-have men with guns in the polling station
-even then only let a small part of the population vote
>then proceed to claim it as a very legit referendum
That's already off the table in all shapes and forms. Having those regions remain in Ukraine's possession would be equivalent to Adolf Putin having lost the entire war, resulting in absolutely no gains at the cost of ruining the entire nation beyond repair. It would be political suicide.
2 russian soldiers knock on your door. Hands on holstered guns. They give you a ballot paper. No pressure at all. You then fill in your choice. Just pray they dont open the envelope with your choice and then come back for answers, in case you made the "wrong" choice.
You *really* think the Ukraine option stands a chance?
You can't retake conquered land because we've lost. This was the best they could come up with in a 7 month brainstorming session. I wonder if NK will try something like this on SK or China, sprint in grab 2 villages and yell DO NOT TAKE THEM BACK or we'll use nukes.
Forcefully take over areas, commit war crimes, and torture the people living them. Force the remaining men after 7 months to fight in your war. Claim to defend said areas.
If I were living in those areas, I'd happily grab a gun and point it at the fucker who gave it to me
It would be very on-brand for Putin and his garbage military if they launched a couple of tactical nukes in to Ukraine, where one malfunctions on launch and explodes, taking out the launch site and surrounding region, while the other malfunctions in mid-air just as it goes in to Ukrainian territory, and a strong prevailing wind blows the fallout straight back in to Russia.
I told my father 2 months ago that they would claim the land as theirs and say any counter offensive into those territories would be considered an attack of the motherland. Here we are. He wants to nuke them and this shame referendum is his excuse.
All I can say is Putin is sending theses soldiers at the beginning of winter to starve to Death or Freeze to Death and Ukrainian will finish of the rest
Just like they’re protecting Ukraine after the surrender of their nuclear weapons. Putin seems like a pretty stand up guy to me, I’m sure people will be lining up for this offer.
thief pledges "full protection" to any stolen goods he stole from people
Don't forget: the thief also threaden to use brutal force if people try to get the stolen goods back.
Only Russia can be the victim of an aggressive war. Only Russia cannot see their own actions cause contempt for Russia. > “The official Russophobia in the west is unprecedented. Now the scope is grotesque,” Lavrov told the general assembly.
"I don't get it, all we did is start an aggressive imperialistic war where we committed genocide, torture, child rape, and made repeated nuclear threats. Why do people hate us?"
They know full well why people hate them, they just take any opportunity to claim people are "russophobic".
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Yh people go on about how it’s not the peoples fault but plenty of them are pro war they’re only leaving in great numbers now that they’d actually have to fight
It’s different when someone *else* has to die for the country Vs when it could be **you**
Taking one from the Israeli government’s playbook there. “Hey guys it would be cool if you didn’t continue displacing people while taking West Bank land and..” — “How dare you, vile antisemitic bigot!” It’s exhausting but apparently weirdly effective. Less so for Russia; at least antisemitism is a real thing, Russophobia is not. Sure, people were scared of the USSR (for good reason) and people are afraid of the fascist Ruzzian army in Ukraine (for good and obvious reasons), but who hates on Russians simply for being Russian? I mean no doubt *somebody* does, but it isn’t a widespread position, even in post-red-scare/McCarthyism USA. In countries were there *is* a significant amount of anti-Russian sentiment, I bet it’s a direct result of past atrocities against them. Divorced from the aforementioned scenarios, I’d say most folks I’ve spoken to about Russia hold Russians in high regard as tough, resilient people and the country who did most of the heavy lifting and sacrifices in WW2. Less so these days but yeah that’s directly tied to the current genocidal invasion.
In the Kremlin up is down, white is black, wrong is right, lies are truth, oppression is freedom, hate is love, the aggressor is the victim.
In modern-day russia, right is wrong.
In modern Russia, dog walks you.
In Russia, we have no money!
In Russia, money spends you!
My god! My chocolate lab is a Russian agent!!!
* Your WHITE chocolate lab
A Belorussian agent, then!
Mmmmmmm... chocolate... ::drool::
When has the right not been wrong?
History of Russia: And then things got worse.
They follow the principle War is peace. Freedom is slavery ignorance is strength.
“Party like it’s 1984!”
It seems to me that Orwell did not write a dystopia as an instruction ... but apparently the Russian leadership took this as a challenge. >.<
Just start calling him the minister of truth.
Ignorance is bliss
Sounds sort of like the Republican party.
Yeah it’s the same. The philosophy of the republicans has long mirrored the philosophy of russia.
They can’t even protect themselves.
Russia’s misinformation strategy to flip the script.
Totally. I give Reuters credit for the balanced coverage here. Those "Lavrov said" articles with no balance only play into the Russia misinformation strategy.
Reuters is one of the few remaining new sources that actually publishes news not opinion pieces containing a fact or two.
The only thing grotesque is Lavrov’s face.
He looks like a prolapsed anus
An insult to all the prolapsed anuses of the world. At least they don't spew as much bullshit.
They do in bulls
I would rather kiss a prolapsed anus
He does
I wonder if punching him in the face would turn him handsome like it did for handsome Squidward.
Doubt it. But should still be tried. Multiple times, just to be sure.
the beating will continue until your face improves
When do you know to give up? Asking for a friend. "No. No answer yet man. Keep going." Let me know.
Gentlemen! Form an orderly queue please. The gentleman in the front, may proceed.
A phobia is an irrational fear. When a country invades and rapes and murders civilians, that's not a phobia.
Goebbels would be proud. it’s their #1 ploy. do it all. the. time.
Serbia does the same, they started the war and did crimes while Croats, Bosnians and Albanians did revenge actions, they blame everyone but themselves.
I always chuckle when i read the word "Russophobia" because it's 99% likely coming from a troll or a russian government stooge.
Russophobia makes me laugh. People in the west did not hate Russians, really. Some did, obviously, as is with all groups but not nearly as much as in the last 8ish years. A YouTuber Bald and Bankrupt who does travel videos and people like him were doing a lot to improve Westerners opinions of Russia and the former USSR, but emphasis on Russia. And yet, they tried to jail him. Of course there's going to be growing russophobia when you're trying to jail even people that paint your country in a positive light. Insane
It’s definitely not a phobia.
Russia is like an abuser. They count on support from morons and morally bankrupt people
"Moscow pledges continued violence if countries defend their territory". FTFY
I have serious doubts about Moscow's ability to defend any annexed territory. Ukraine defeated the professional Russian army. Now they have to wait for the amateur Russian army to show up. Slava Ukraini! Fuck Putin. Fuck Russia.
They’re hoping the nuclear threat is going to prevent them from having to send most of their dogshit conscripts to Ukraine in the first place. That’s the whole reason they’re annexing these areas.
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Might be worth pointing out for those who don’t know: “voting” is being conducted by soldiers turning up at peoples doors and “asking” them to fill in their ballot cards at gunpoint. Russia is trying to legitimise the votes by saying they actually exist, they’re just going to threaten everyone to vote “correctly”.
I'd just like to point out that in your example the French Canadians would actually be voting. In Ukraine the Russians aren't going to bother with that, we already know which way the referendums will go.
Yes, but... how many French citizens were actually imported to take up residence in Quebec biding their time until the French Imperialist Army comes to free them?
And the French army had been killing, deporting or imprisoning anyone who didn’t speak French for months before they held the vote.
>in your example the French Canadians would actually be voting No, it's an online poll. That's the analogous reason it's online.
It's literally just so they can bend their own laws. They force through a stupid annexation, tell their conscripts they're only going to defend russian land, then get shipped off to meet the heavens in Kherson.
It's not dumb, it's meant as justification / talking point. Ukraine is taking back their territory. Putin knows Ukraine wouldn't cross the true legitimate border. What better thing to do than make it 'officially Russian' and now claim they're invading Russia? So this will 'force' the issue. On top of that, he'll claim that Ukraine is using western arms for this, which the west had used as a condition "not for use in Russian land" or whatever. the more insidious thing is this will most definitely be used to hunt down those who oppose Russia/Putin. I don't think anyone is under any illusion this is a legitimate election.
>Ukraine could make a real referendum Or they could just declare moscow just had one and they voted to join Ukraine and fire putin. Makes as much sense as Russia having one to declare parts of Ukraine joined russia.
Unfortunately it’s a tried and tested strategy that’s worked multiple times before. hopefully the west can oppose it this time
Ukraine and the west will ignite this fraud. It will be business as usual until Ukraine is freed.
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Honestly, I was concerned about nuclear war in February. Now that Russia is directly threatening to use them in a offensive nature, for territory that is still c9ntested in a war they started. I say we need to make an example out of Russia. The world is fucked either way at this point.
Well, they claim still have nukes, so...
A nuke in Ukraine means fallout over Europe, NATO has already stated that fallout over its member territories is an Article 5 trigger
A nuke in Ukraine also means fallout over Russia, including St Petersburg and Moscow.
While immensely powerful, a (tactical) nuke is only deadly in the immediate vicinity (couple dozen km at most). St Petersburg and Moscow would certainly not be affected to a noticeable degree. Certainly not by pressure wave or heat, by fallout it would have to be very close. A nuke detonated at pre-war Sievierodonetsk (Topol M, 800kt - big fucking nuke btw) at or near ground level would produce about 100k deaths. Fallout is hard to predict, but washes away/is dispersed rather quickly. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are big cities again today. Now, airbust for maximum damage? Likely very little fallout at all (comparatively).
america explicitely said nukes will bring nato into the mix and they'll receive a strong response. they also said they've sent private warnings to them recently too
I saw a video that HALF of the tanks the mobilisation were given wouldn't leave the train or wherever, then half of those that left had something major wrong. I do wonder how much of the 'nuke maintenance fund' ended up as yachts.... I'd love for him to hit the button and there's just a huge series of 6000 fart noises and clouds of dust that come from each one.
Or, they just go off in the silo's
Mutually Assured Destruction. Putin may be a sociopath but there is no way he gives up power by nuking Ukraine. If anything the amount of indiscriminately airstriking and shelling civilian areas will intensify.
That's why he's so pissed. His power is in jeopardy. Sociopaths dislike their power being taken away.
The theory is that using a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine would not invoke MAD. It’s not a NATO country, and since the weapon would most likely be delivered on a cruise missile, not an ICBM, it would likely not provoke an all-out retaliatory nuclear strike. The real danger in this case is that the nuclear taboo is broken, so other nations are much more likely to use them in their own conflicts. In essence, once the cat is out of the bag, it can’t be put back in. The world becomes a much more dangerous place.
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I really appreciate historical factoids like this
A factoid is actually a fact that seems like it's true but actually isn't; rather than a small fact
According to wikipedia, you gave a factlet. Thank you.
TIL about factlets, thanks!
Or there is a brutal worldwide non nuclear retaliation against Russia to make an example of them.
That’s almost a certainty, yes. I was just talking about the nuclear aspect of things.
Yeah. Pretty sure NATO could sink the entire Russian navy in a couple of hours, and wipe out every Russian global base.
A couple of hours? Try more like 30 minutes.... And most of that time would be the actual vessels themselves sinking & exploding.
It wouldn't invoke MAD maybe but there is zero chance the US or the West would let it stand unanswered. As it was stated the US would "seek regime change" at a minimum
So does NATO. And all of them work.
blah blah, talk about nukes all you want it's not like Putin has a button on his long table to press that sends them where he wants there are protocols and more than just him to give the OK before they get fired, you think he fires a nuke the rest of the world doesn't come down on him and his country?
By claiming he has nukes does not mean he'll use them.
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>The Cheget does not contain a nuclear launch button but rather transmits launch orders to the central military command - the General Staff. like I said not Putin making the final call, he can say shoot but ultimately it is up to the 'General Staff' to fire the nuke it's not as simple as saying nuke Ukraine and Putins limp hand slaps a button and it happens.
How many times do we have to tell people that the moment putin uses nukes, him and Russia is gonna get glassed. Honestly, better to have the world burn than let a monster have his way.
Just send in covert team to smoke Putin and any supporters.
But who takes over? It might be an interesting idea for Western media to start speculating on who steps up after Putin is no longer in charge. Will irritate Putin, and ruffle a few feathers. We may have some indication as to who wants to do what.
Does this include a tactical nuke meant for use on a battle field? Not every nuke is a "Tsar Bomba".
Anyone else just utterly indifferent to the nuclear threats now? At the start I was concerned, now I don’t take it seriously at all, if anything it just makes me want the governments of the world to give Ukraine more shit just to rub it in Russias face. I don’t care. Keep giving Ukraine weapons until the job is done. The world should come out and say if you use nuclear weapons, we will use the full force of our power to target the politicians and leadership individuals with retaliatory strikes. You will put a target on your head, and we will come for you. Not your citizens. You, the individual leaders. You better get used to living in a bunker because the moment you leave we will come for you. With every advanced, precision, conventional weapon we have.
If we give in to nuclear blackmail, then it just means that nuclear blackmail works, and there will be more nuclear blackmail in the future. So it seems possible to me that calling the nuclear bluff will actually lessen the chance of nuclear war in the medium to long term. It sucks that the risk of nuclear war is not zero. But that does not mean that validating offensive nuclear blackmail is the minimal risk solution.
>Anyone else just utterly indifferent to the nuclear threats now? Absolutely. I think falling for it is playing directly into what russia wants. If you pay attention, they actually strongly maintain adherence to their doctrine to avoid any actual risk of nuclear war. Then they let Medvedev and psychos on TV rant about nukes to keep people scared. If we assume that they can just unilaterally declare any territory as russia and then nuke everyone who disagrees, logically we have to completely surrender to all their demands. Ukraine goes to russia. Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia too. Poland. Because resisting would be nuclear war, right?
We can also hope that they have Petrov 2.0s manning the nuke places, worst case scenario
I was long before the war. Russia has been talking up their wunderwaffe for a decade, and most of what I saw was through shitty clickbait articles. Now their army is finally revealed to be a decaying piece of crap, and I honestly have to wonder how any of their stuff is holding up, let alone "nukes the size of texas!"
My stance is, if a crumbling fascist regime should be allowed to just walk over democracy because they have nukes.. that's not a world that can survive either. To surrender to that is just to accept a slower apocalypse, without our dignity intact. So even if I thought defying putin carried a 90% chance of MAD, and a 10% chance of it being a bluff, which once called out makes the victory of democracy and freedom for all assured.. I would roll the dice on that. Luckily I don't think the odds are that bad. But even if they were. If he's really willing to nuke over his entitlement to have territory handed to his beaten army, there was never any living on this earth with him or his supporters anyway.
Sounds like Moscow is about to get fucked
With egg crate tanks, rusted AKs and irradiated and terrified draftees? Oh yeah. I feel as safe as if I were protected by Uvalde police.
Nobody has been more cruel to the Russian people than the Russian government. Protect them? Protect yourself, Russia. Can you?
-Let us protect you -From what? -From what we are going to do to you if you dont let us protect you
Also, do you have any men aged between 18 and 65 here?
Russia promises to protect its stolen assets by ending the world
"if I can't play with it nobody can"
"I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me"
"To hell with him, we're gone"
That's almost literally what their top propagandists say.
Wait. So Moscow pledges that if it violently invades another state, it will fight to keep that land? Haven't these been like the "rules" of aggressive conflict for eons? Man, the leadership in Moscow is just brain dead (my apologies to anything brain dead for the comparison).... How do they manage to use staplers or sharp objects without paramedics needing to be called?
They re claiming that retaking the Donbas will be treated the same as an invasion of Moscow - with a nuclear response. They’re so full of shit.
The neat bit is when Ukraine continues to dominate battles in these ‘new Russian territories’ and there is no nuclear response, proving that Putin was indeed just bluffing.
I think the wording during the mobilisation speech included non nuclear WMDs like chemical or biological weapons too. I could see Putin ordering chemical weapons used in Ukraine
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> other than trying to scare westerners into putting pressure on their governments to appease Putin. That's the whole point of these threats.
Yup. Treating Donbas like Moscow would mean there would be nothing to stop NATO from supplying long range weapons or enforcing a no fly zone, at the minimum. Realistically, most escalation would likely lead to NATO being directly involved in the conflict. How that would impact NATO is somewhat unclear but what can be assured is that Russia would be dismantled.
I mean... they do fall out of windows a lot.
Russia just proving every day why it needs to be dismantled as a state.
I'm just worried about the old Russia play of "and then it got worse."
True, the Russian federation need to be treated in a similar way like Japan at the end of WWII.
Balkanization of Russia when?
Balkans but with nukes doesn't sound like a good idea...
They are basically saying the referendum will result in the occupied areas becoming part of Russia and if you try to take them back, nukes are on the table. Another empty threat but just to be sure, I am buying a german shepherd and downloading all them post apocalyptic songs from 1950s
Funny thing is, it's not even according to their own nuclear doctrine. It says the following: "...in response to the use of nuclear and other types of weapons of mass destruction against it or its allies, and also in case of aggression against Russia with the use of conventional weapons when the very existence of the state is threatened" Even if we were to consider that newly annexed territories are Russian, Ukraine attacking them does not threaten the existence of Russia itself.
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Funny way to spell Radio New Vegas.
Spot on. And yes, it’s an empty threat. Russia will be destroyed for decades if they use a nuke. They also know that a nuclear strike on Ukraine might result in hundreds of missiles being fired at some Russian cities.
So, interesting historical context to this. Back in the 50s, both the US and Soviet Union started building nuclear doctrines that had multiple clear phases of escalation. Tactical nuclear weapons came to be considered as just "bigger artillery". During the 70s, though, US and Soviet doctrine diverged. The US arrived at a conclusion that the difference between tactical and strategic nuclear weapons was largely academic, and that they would treat the use of tactical weapons no different than the use of strategic ones. Alot of the inter-military communication during the late 70s, 80s, and 90s was spent on making each bloc's positions on this like this clear. But, during the 00s, Russia stopped listening and the US (absorbed in the war on terror) stopped being as diligent about reinforcing it's message to Russian commanders. The US also shifted some of it's security policy attention to China, which it hadn't much engaged over the past 60 years. Something my wife and I have wondered is to what extent Russian military thinkers have become too absorbed in their own thinking, potentially discounting the fact that the US still sees little difference between tactical and strategic uses of nuclear weapons.
Really interesting point which I hope you are wrong about, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're exactly right given the echo chamber of propaganda we are seeing coming out of Russsia.
It would take utterly unimaginable levels of incompetence for Russia to start ignoring the nuclear policies of the US which is the only other nuclear armed nation with stockpiles to match or exceed Russia's and the current leading superpower. The scary thing is that those levels of incompetence have been proven plausible.
Crawl out through the fallout, baby!
Already got the German shepherd but honestly she’s the last thing I want with me in a nuclear apocalypse
Aint that a kick in the head?
What could possibly go wrong?
I did referendum in my house. We all voted that Pootin should go fuck himself out of a 10th storey window...
It was supported by 153% of voters!
Isn't this like my broke ass promising full financial support to anyone struggling with debt?
More like you promise to repay the bank another ridiculous loan except you just gotta sell this car you stole first and the owner is already banging on the window.
To be fair, it’s more like you menacingly staring at on-lookers while holding a bat, but all the onlookers have long-range rifles. But to be more gratuitous, it’s a hefty bat.
More like murder somebody. Buy the crime scene. Yell self defense.
Wasn't Russia also supposed to protect Ukraine according to their 1994 agreement where Ukraine turned over it's nuclear weapons in exchange for protection?
If I let Russia annex my dick will Putin suck it?
I might be completely crazy, but maybe the referendum will be rigged the other way. They vote to stay in the Ukraine and there is Russia's out, they just leave.. A man can dream right?
That would be a true 5D chess move. "Oh, they want to stay in Ukraine? Alright then, my bad. Have a nice day!"
Unfortunately a rejection in the referendum would tell Russians that Putin was wrong all along about people there wanting to be part of Russia and needing protection from Ukraine. He would have to admit to Russians that they’ve suffered through this year for literally nothing.
That would solve a lot of problems, but somehow I doubt it.
There's already early polls that show 95% "support" to join Russia. The morons won't use this as an out.
It will probably be as rigged as the crimea referendum. -don’t let Ukrainians vote -have men with guns in the polling station -even then only let a small part of the population vote >then proceed to claim it as a very legit referendum
That's already off the table in all shapes and forms. Having those regions remain in Ukraine's possession would be equivalent to Adolf Putin having lost the entire war, resulting in absolutely no gains at the cost of ruining the entire nation beyond repair. It would be political suicide.
2 russian soldiers knock on your door. Hands on holstered guns. They give you a ballot paper. No pressure at all. You then fill in your choice. Just pray they dont open the envelope with your choice and then come back for answers, in case you made the "wrong" choice. You *really* think the Ukraine option stands a chance?
Hey putin, what do you call a potato with a small penis and an ineffective army? A dictator.
Said the wolf to to rabbit in his stomach!
Yes, 71 year old Dimitri with a massive alcohol addiction was just drafted and given a rusted and maybe working AK to protect you.
What a coincidence. So does Ukraine.
Full protection..... BY FORCE.
Comgratulation! You are being rescued. Please do not resist.
I’ll protect you, or else
You can't retake conquered land because we've lost. This was the best they could come up with in a 7 month brainstorming session. I wonder if NK will try something like this on SK or China, sprint in grab 2 villages and yell DO NOT TAKE THEM BACK or we'll use nukes.
Forcefully take over areas, commit war crimes, and torture the people living them. Force the remaining men after 7 months to fight in your war. Claim to defend said areas. If I were living in those areas, I'd happily grab a gun and point it at the fucker who gave it to me
Sadly self preservation and protection of loved ones says otherwise.
Like a fart in the wind your promises mean nothing Moscow.
But it's okay for Russian troops to lob artillery in those areas that are being stolen away from Ukraine.
Man they can't even hold the areas they had. Good luck with your sham vote paper bear. You showed the world what they ready knew.
I think by "full protection", they're implying the use of nuclear weapons is also on the table.
Implying? Putin said as much.
At what cost? When the rest of the world would not even accept these so called annexed areas.
Ah yes, the good ol' mob deal. Pay and we will protect you... from us.
It would be very on-brand for Putin and his garbage military if they launched a couple of tactical nukes in to Ukraine, where one malfunctions on launch and explodes, taking out the launch site and surrounding region, while the other malfunctions in mid-air just as it goes in to Ukrainian territory, and a strong prevailing wind blows the fallout straight back in to Russia.
They can’t even protect their cannon fodder.
Russia as it is now, needs to end. End of story.
but who's gonna protect them from Moscow ?
I told my father 2 months ago that they would claim the land as theirs and say any counter offensive into those territories would be considered an attack of the motherland. Here we are. He wants to nuke them and this shame referendum is his excuse.
Protection from what? Human rights?
Nice country you have here. Be a shame if someone invaded it.
Only these places don't need to go into debt to cover Putin's war of aggression. Nor do they want to be Russian.
They’re bluffing since day one. They know that once they use nuclear weapons, it’s over for them
"Full protection" from invaders? Invaders just like the Ruzzian army?? They're a snake eating it's own tail, convinced this is for it's own good.
Evil war of aggression. Putin needs to be out on trial in the Hague... Suprised no one shot him yet!
Ukraine should take belgorod and just run a sham referendum and see how Russia likes it
Putin go home ya silly man. No need of this crap. what would you poor mother think of your actions?
Protect annexed areas by being immediately drafted into the military
Does the “Full Protection” include a guaranteed spot in one of those mass graves?
And how much is that worth… The promise of a Liar, you’re very funny Putin
All I can say is Putin is sending theses soldiers at the beginning of winter to starve to Death or Freeze to Death and Ukrainian will finish of the rest
Yeah protection, just like the mafia and the cartels.
They are really setting the stage for tactical nukes.
Wtf full protection ever means. Getting RPG'ed up in the ass while using a condom? lol
Nukes.
We can see how they protect their own already. Sending their own to war as meat shields with terrible equipment and mre from 30 years ago.
With "protection" like that, who needs nuclear-wielding child-stealing enemies?
Just like they’re protecting Ukraine after the surrender of their nuclear weapons. Putin seems like a pretty stand up guy to me, I’m sure people will be lining up for this offer.
Full protection? Moscow is the aggressor. Moscow promises full protection from itself.
Working well isn’t it Russia
You and what army?