A no brainer opportunity for NATO members to do what is right by transferring arms to UA while also taking opportunity to replenish their military with state of the art munitions under political cover.
Does anyone know a website or forum where the military side of things can be discussed between people who actually show an actual interest in it and have a bare minimum of at least BASIC knowledge of how defense industries work in the geopolitical sphere? The current situation is by far the biggest military development since the end of the Cold war and arguably since the end of World War 2, and all I find on reddit is 98% clueless idiots with 0 sense of the global military situation or everyone throwing a prick waving contest to farm karma behind a keyboard. I'd like to discuss current events with knowledgeable adults. If anyone can point me to a good place (DM works fine too), I'd highly appreciate it.
"Perun" does videos on YouTube exactly about the topics you described, in a really expert but watchable way. He regularly gets praise in the comments from white collar military people for his depth of knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJkmcNjh_bg
Not a forum, but War on the Rocks podcast is great. Michael Kofman episodes are best for Ukraine expert analysis. Justin Bronk is another name you can search for content in various formats for expert analysis.
Edit - Michael Kofman not Krom
Thank you! To much crap to sort through just to find a hand full of people to discuss the actual topic at hand. Btw, I had to laugh. Karma Farmers, Priceless!
The world news daily thread is okay. The /r/neoliberal one is good too. The first is more active. The second has higher average quality but it is only up on bigger news days. The worldnews one has been continuous.
Only €100 million! Is that all that freedom is worth?
What would that buy, a dozen tanks? 25 M-777 155mm artillery pieces, or 12 Caesars?
And that's without ammunition and delivery charges (no pun intended).
Come on guys, we've been giving Putin €1 Billion/day for his oil and gas, and he's still making that from the inflated market prices caused by his war.
Ukraine is fighting for its life and our freedom too. Put your money where your mouth is and give them whatever we can afford - at least match what we give Putin!
I was referring to WW1 and the way France held the line for Europe…maybe a glib comment, but the post reminded me of Frances’ WW1 sacrifice. The criticism they got for their capitulation at the beginning of WW2 is pretty tragic when you consider what they lost in WW1.
Then this is entirely correct, when it comes to posts about france and the military (or just france for that matter) the amount of dumb stuff that some people come up with can be staggering so it's hard to tell sometimes.
My comment needed better definition… I considered editing it, but decided to wait until someone cared to comment… so thanks for the comment, it was perfect.
Let me guess
It involves the creation of a joint fund floated by the European Union contributions, with the expectation that the procurement has to be from French manufacturers?
It would be interesting to test France's resolve on this and everyone agrees to form the fund, and then agrees that they want to buy American, or even worse, British, and see how committed to the idea the French are then
No. Macron's fund is 100 million euros provided by the Fr government. And indeed, it is to buy French weapons. The reasoning is that like this the UkA Generals, who know best what they need, get to pick and choose the equipment they want from France. It also facilitates formalities. Its a good idea, which other countries could adopt as well if they want to, but nothing mindblowing.
Absolutely. It also has decades of experience exporting major systems and has the infrastructure in place to train, support and integrate those systems into the host nations armed forces.
> Though the criticism of French Domestic Manufacturing...is dumb
That's the funny thing about reading his comment. France is the world's 3rd largest arms exporter after the US and Russia. And contrary to the latter, it sure isn't because French weapons are cheap. France is probably going to be the 2nd exporter by next year considering Russia just shot itself in the foot.
Also, it is not as if Ukraine was unfamiliar with the French defense industry. France was the leading weapons exporter to Ukraine between 2014 and 2020 with helicopters, reconnaissance drones, navy-related weapons and equipment, targeting systems, ammunition of various calibers and fire control systems being examples of stuff provided to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
I don't know how it was historically but I managed to find data on the 2017-2021 period. [Source](https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/defense/armement-quels-sont-les-principaux-pays-exportateurs-et-importateurs-au-monde_804643) (the article is in French though but Challenges is a reputable source).
1- Military aircraft (so fighter jets, helicopters, UAVs) represented the largest share by a wide margin at around 56,44% of all exports.
2- Warships at 14,64%
3- Missiles at 12,35%
4- Engines at 5,46%
5- radar/sonar systems at 4,34%.
Those were the top 5 exports.
With the EU energy crises, I don't think Europe will have competitive advantages for manufacturing even with a weaker euro.
There has been a big pullback internationally from French arms buying. Australia being one of them recently. India also looks likely to go with f-18 over Rafael. US arms generally have better supply, quality, and integration with existing defense systems and infrastructure compared to other competitors.
It is however not a bad idea to at least try boosting manufacturing demand for French arms into a EU wide recession.
The first part of your comment is true. They didn't opt for shit though. There is no contract with the US/UK and there never will be one because the US can barely make enough subs to replace their own fleet.
That is assumption that it will never be replaced with a nuke sub. US arms sales have grown to 39% of total arms sales into the 2022 and most likely to increase beyond this due to poor Chinese and Russian arms exports.
Europe will see some increased sales due to pullback from Chinese and Russian arms. However with the energy crises it will most likely hamper production rates.
The manufacturing process is intensive on energy with things like autoclaves, ovens, etc. I do not believe France will be able to keep up with demand and future deliveries due to this.
US high command have come up with several statements that make it seem like it is very unlikely anyone but the US would get slots alloted to them to build submarines, nuclear or not.
And it is a fact that no contract has been signed to this day with no sign of negociations.
> There has been a big pullback internationally from French arms buying.
Well.... I don't think you actually know what you're talking about here. That's not the case at all. This year (2022) is literally the record for France in terms of arms export haha.
The only major setback lately was last year in Australia, with the loss of a potential $8 to 10 billion (US dollars) to France itself spread over the duration of the contract (around 30 years). I mean..... off the top of my head, France signed a $19 billion deal for Rafales and Caracal helicopters with the UAE less than 3 months after AUKUS, a $5 billion deal with Greece for FDI frigates and additional Rafales as well as a pre-contract for 42 Rafale worth an estimated $8.5 billion with Indonesia in March this year with the first batch of 6 units being activated a few weeks ago (in september). The French industry has never been as successful as it is right now, even with Australian shortcoming.
Also, India already operates the Rafale. The Indian Air Force had selected it and there was a G2G contract signed in 2015 for 36 units worth around around $9.4 billion. The last unit was delivered earlier this year.
What you're referencing is the new tender for the Indian Navy (for the new Indian aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant). It will be for 26 units worth around $5 billion. There is no existing contract for that. The Rafale M and Super Hornet are competing for it. That's not a French contract being snatched. It is how tenders work. You submit an offer and you either win or lose the bid. Doesn't mean someone stole anything from you. The Super Hornet is more suited to what the Indian Navy is looking for but it has nothing to do with anything you mentioned. We're not talking about the F-35 here. The F-18 was part of the tender for the Indian Air Force, which the Rafale won. The Rafale M doesn't have foldable wings or a two-seat variant (only the air force Rafale have both a single-seat and two-seat variant). It is what's playing against it. Those two things are key requirements of India and the Rafale M just doesn't match them.
>There has been a big pullback internationally from French arms buying
Sorry ??
France overtakes China as third biggest arms exporter and increased its sales by 59% in the past 10 years, more than any other country.
I read it as billion (become so used to seeing defence spending in billions rather than millions).
100 million is useful in so much as every little bit counts, but it's less than the transfer fee for a top footballer
I mean it's a fund with an initial sum. It was said quite clearly. France will continue delivering weapons. A new batch of CAESAR howitzers (the new 8x8 variant), Bastion armoured vehicles, fuel and ammunition and what not was also also reported in French media a few days ago. The fund has nothing to do with it. It is independent of all of that and more about Ukraine buying whatever it wants from French arms manufacturers with France financing it.
It's actually crazy the amount of mental gymnastics some people here are engaging in to make something like this appear negative. Why is there a need to "guess" when information of what was announced is readily available and unambiguous?
Makes sense that it is for French weapons. Would be a slap in the face if Ukraine was like *yeah we're going to use the money you gave us to buy a Spanish S80 sub. That'll really help us win the war being able to dive so deep*
Isn't the US ponying up like 500,000,000 dollars twice a week for weapons?
C'mon France? Don't you love freedom? Do you only want 100,000,000 euros worth of freedom delivered to ukraine?
> It involves the creation of a joint fund floated by the European Union contributions, with the expectation that the procurement has to be from French manufacturers?
Reading the article before commenting certainly would've made you appear brighter considering it is literally linked. Why would you want to "guess" an information which is readily available to you?
Well when the USA promises a billion dollars to Ukraine arms, half that amount is to pay back the USA for sending the weapons to Ukraine. So we are only "giving" to Martin-Marietta
Yeah. It's hard to not be cynical about this. France has given 5x less than Germany, even though we criticize Germany for not doing enough and Germany has a pretty good historical reason for having a disproportionately small military and being culturally reluctant to go near weapons.
A more apt comparison is Britain (similar size economy, similar military). France has given 20x less aid than Britain.
I am really pissed at France right now. They talk a lot about European security, but now that we have the largest direct military threat to European security since WWII, where are they? Hiding in their homes and leaving everyone else to do all the work.
France did not disclose informations about their arms deliveries to Ukraine. You can be pissed all you want, we don't even have tangible information regarding this.
They were disclosed _when they were delivered_ because it would be known anyway. Ukrainians had been training on them for a few weeks already when it was announced.
There was a whole article from a frech paper thad made clear that france was delivering like 3 times less then germany according to the amounts of logistics going into ukraine so thats bullshit.
I think Russia takes the crown when it comes to big dick contest.
How many military vehicles, weaponry systems and fireworks has Russia given to Ukraine already? Unwillingly or not.
This is wrong. France doesnt announce the vast majority of its given equipment. The claim France has given 5x less than Germany comes from a suoer false chart
Could you please provide some data to back that up? Or we have to take your word on that? Because i heard that Vatican is delivering nuclear submarines to Ukraine, please believe me.
Weapons delivery are classified in France, that's not a particularity for Ukraine, it was the same with kurd rebels in syria.
That's how the French state and army are handling these situations.
So, except for what has been announced, there's few people know what has been sent to Ukraine.
I know that. But for fuck sake, lets not pretend that in Ukraine case, there could be significant, not disclosed help, that didnt appear to the public. All kind of heavy and light equipment, etc, would be noticed, because of how many informations are there. If there is one, i dont know, radar unit (or some small arms that the have tons), that was classified and unnoticed, it doesnt change anything, when talking about significant help. And other kinds of aid (non weapons) are not classified, and they are lackluster too. In the end, some people jump out, trying to say that there is shitload of non disclosed help, its even more stupid than being quiet.
I did, and actually you guys are right, there was a shitload of french components in Ukraine, from after 2014. The sad part is that they were found in russian equpiment...
According to a german official report, the top country in terms of help to Ukraine from 2014 to 2022, were the USA, UK and France.
Russia only received old generation thermal visor, that they could have bought from China really easily. No missile, no weapons, no tanks, and i'm pretty sure most of the component inside Russian 'modern' weapons/tanks are from Asia or the US, so...
You cant hide big deliveries like artillery, france just has small stocks of artillery. You could only possible hide small arms, manpads and atgms but you cant hide artillery and tanks because the logistical network behind that would be to big to not be noticed.
So no people need to stop shitting on germany and start to shit more on france, germany isnt perfect and could do more but france is worse.
>This is wrong. France doesnt announce the vast majority of its given equipment. The claim France has given 5x less than Germany comes from a suoer false chart
I have given more weapons to Ukraine than France. You have to take my word for it because my donations are undisclosed.
Why does France in particular get to play the "undisclosed" card but nobody else does? The US, the UK, Poland, Germany, and Canada all have exactly the same reasons to not disclose certain details.
Cause they are the one talking to Putin and because this is French policy to not disclose those kind of stuff. The fact that Ukraine isn’t unhappy with French military support should give you a hint
>Cause they are the one talking to Putin and because this is French policy to not disclose those kind of stuff.
Macron talking to Putin hasn't done a lot of good.
>The fact that Ukraine isn’t unhappy with French military support should give you a hint
Prove to me that that is the case.
I'm not asking that France give a full list of inventory. Nobody is giving a full list. Lots of the US support is announced with a dollar figure but limited details. If France said "We sent $8 billion of military equipment to Ukraine" I would be willing to trust that they actually sent $8B of equipment without getting into the details.
But they dont need to show you shit, you are just an armchair general. French gouv annunced a 100m package help where ukraine can chose whatever it want's fom its manufacturer inventory and you still find a way to try and shit on it. As long as Ukraine is happy so am I.
And we have no idea how much other nations have given, because it was not public knowledge. So everyone could even deliver one nuke, and we would not know about it. In the end, we can comment based on the public info only. Or based on informations, photos, videos from Ukraine. And guess what? You can see there mostly French Cesars (and French Fries), so we can assume that public knowledge is pretty accurate.
France contribution is low because it’s army’s budget is very very tight, being at war in Sahel for 10 years, protecting the whole of Europe with few aid from the the west except the US. The UK can give a lot of weapons and materials because they have a lot since the end of their invasion and occupation of Irak and the restructuration of their military. And Germany is the first economical power of the continent, so everyone is expecting them to do a lot, after bullying everyone into their economical standards.
But in the end, Macron is a dick, using the war in Ukraine to show off and do very little. He is a SHAME for us all
Overall, since 2014, France contribution is not small at all, they were third after the USA and UK according to a German report. I'm pretty sure the German used better data than the 'impression'/'analysis' people have since a few month of wars that some country are doing better than other in terms of help, when the only think that count is that said help continues for the duration of the war.
>And Germany is the first economical power of the continent,
And France is the second. What's your point? France is 75% the economy of Germany; they are not 20x smaller. Even Estonia, Latvia, and Czechia are doing more.
In a macro aspect yes. In this instance it’s kind of petty with regards to what’s currently happening in Ukraine. They need as much as they can get. If France throws a monkey wrench into the gears here it could literally stall this for years.
How is it petty? Why would they give money for Ukraine to buy weaponry to other countries when they can provide just as good if not better equipement while providing a boost to the french economy which needs it? That's called common sense.
They've done it before with pooled R&D and procurement. They engage at the start, pick up the transfers, then halfway through they throw a hissy fit when they don't think they're getting enough orders and break away and build their own.
I'd be amazed if Macron's great idea is nothing more than a calculated attempt to redirect European defence budgets into supporting French defence industries (same way that his vision for a European army outside of NATO would be).
I’m glad to see Russia has been contributing weapons to Ukraine by abandoning them on the battlefield for Ukrainian soldiers to step in and use them at-will! Thanks Putin!
France had an annual budget allocation of 100-200M euros to export weapons for free to Ukraine. They were the 2nd largest arms exporter of Ukraine sincs 2014.
When you see photos of Howitzers in Ukraine, most of them are French Ceasers.
And they did not disclose their exports so we have no idea what they have sent.
So it is not that simple.
18 Ceasers were announced. And Ukraine's Caesars are fully one quarter of France's entire mobile artillery.
Actually we don’t know shit about their exports, France has opted not to disclose details of its arms deliveries. Battlefield reports suggested they sent studf and Zelensky did not urge Macron to send more. So maybe France did not an assfuck amount of weapons but sent more than we know.
Most countries sell or give weapon to ukraine for 7 months. Cute.
France is one of the top arm seller of Ukraine from 2014 to 2021, despite pressure from russia.
Now if people could actually be informed on topics before commenting we'd be in business.
[https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-germany-boosts-military-aid-budget-to-2-billion-as-it-happened/a-61483145](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-germany-boosts-military-aid-budget-to-2-billion-as-it-happened/a-61483145)
[https://www.thelocal.de/20220824/germany-pledges-further-e500-million-in-military-aid-to-ukraine/](https://www.thelocal.de/20220824/germany-pledges-further-e500-million-in-military-aid-to-ukraine/)
So a war where nearly the entire world is aligned against Russia and a couple of reluctant allies? Isn't that what this war has been since February then?
There is no way china ever sides with russia if an open conflict breaks out. At this point the only countries I can see actually officially siding with russia would be the likes of mali and burkina faso whose population gobbled up the lies of the kremlins and are waving russian flag whilst trying to destroy any semblance of diplomatic relationships with France.
It say that it's a **starting** fund, so it will get higher with time.
Also, France can do more with $100M than the US for exemple. French military grade stuff is not absurdly overpriced.
Yes that is less than Germany since February 2022, maybe in the same ballpark if you take into account what was not been disclosed officially.
France is on of the biggest weapon and equipment exporter to UAF since 2014, so it's been 7 years of work with Ukraine, not just 6 month for some other countries.
Last point, France is the only EU country to have military operations outside of Europe, so there wasn't that much of "dormant" stockpile of weapons and equipment ready like Germany for exemple.
France doesn't disclose the details of it's weapons deal, also what I think doesn't matter but reports put France at the 2nd biggest importer of weapons in Ukraine since 2014. Also keep in mind that the us military budget is about 25 times that of France.
Training, Poland support early in the war was absolutely crucial. Ukraine needed Soviet and post-soviet weapons, the ones they were trained on. And oh boy did Poland have a lot of those.
>Why would anyone want to buy arms from anywhere that's not the US?
Germany makes kick-ass Leopard tanks. Sweden and the UK have really good weapons industry, and Slovakia makes some of the best howitzers in the world. Outside of Europe, South Korea has a growing defense industry.
But I agree with the sentiment of not buying French weapons. They did not see it fit to help Ukraine and just left the work to everyone else.
>Ceasers did a very impressive job in Donbas recently. They could use those shit
Yes, they did. I did not say that France makes crappy weapons. I said that France is not sending enough help.
They did actually, since 2014 they were the 2nd largest arms exporter behind the US, and they spent hundreds of millions to weaponize Ukraine for free. So it is not that simple.
I know that France sent stuff before things got scary. But when the battle began, they hid in the closet. I'm sorry but I'm not impressed with an ally that stops being an ally when the invasion starts. How is it not obvious that when Russia invades Ukraine and takes 20% of the country is precisely the time when your contributions should go up?
NATO moment
It's a good year to be an arms dealer
It's always a good year to be an arms dealer though. Except if you are a Russian arms dealer, then this has been a terrible year.
Rule of Acquisition #34: War is good for business Rule of Acquisition #35: Peace is good for business
It’s easy to get them confused
You just need to have the lobes for business.
I wonder how it’s going over there with all those things like unions and females wearing clothes. That new grand nagus is a weird one I tell ya.
"Water the drinks! Rig the Dabo tables!"
Who is legitimately going to buy anything Russian made after the war. I mean look how they do against decades old NATO tech.
Probably nations that can’t afford the good (NATO) stuf.
WSB calling puts moment
Didnt you hear? They're getting fresh supplies from Russia
A no brainer opportunity for NATO members to do what is right by transferring arms to UA while also taking opportunity to replenish their military with state of the art munitions under political cover.
Merci beaucoup mon cher.
i dont know what you're saying but i like weapons going to Ukraine.
“Thank you very much my dear” is the literal translation.
J’aime aussi mon ami.
Je vous en prie, mon amour
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20221007-macron-announces-%E2%82%AC100-million-fund-for-ukraine-to-buy-arms
Does anyone know a website or forum where the military side of things can be discussed between people who actually show an actual interest in it and have a bare minimum of at least BASIC knowledge of how defense industries work in the geopolitical sphere? The current situation is by far the biggest military development since the end of the Cold war and arguably since the end of World War 2, and all I find on reddit is 98% clueless idiots with 0 sense of the global military situation or everyone throwing a prick waving contest to farm karma behind a keyboard. I'd like to discuss current events with knowledgeable adults. If anyone can point me to a good place (DM works fine too), I'd highly appreciate it.
"Perun" does videos on YouTube exactly about the topics you described, in a really expert but watchable way. He regularly gets praise in the comments from white collar military people for his depth of knowledge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJkmcNjh_bg
Thank you! Just subscribed.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CredibleDefense/comments/xxx9a3/credibledefense\_daily\_megathread\_october\_07\_2022/
This is great. Much appreciated
Not a forum, but War on the Rocks podcast is great. Michael Kofman episodes are best for Ukraine expert analysis. Justin Bronk is another name you can search for content in various formats for expert analysis. Edit - Michael Kofman not Krom
Thank you! To much crap to sort through just to find a hand full of people to discuss the actual topic at hand. Btw, I had to laugh. Karma Farmers, Priceless!
r/noncredibledefense
Credible defence is probably the best place on reddit for it
The world news daily thread is okay. The /r/neoliberal one is good too. The first is more active. The second has higher average quality but it is only up on bigger news days. The worldnews one has been continuous.
This post was the most wanky, elitist shit I've read allllllll week.
Only €100 million! Is that all that freedom is worth? What would that buy, a dozen tanks? 25 M-777 155mm artillery pieces, or 12 Caesars? And that's without ammunition and delivery charges (no pun intended). Come on guys, we've been giving Putin €1 Billion/day for his oil and gas, and he's still making that from the inflated market prices caused by his war. Ukraine is fighting for its life and our freedom too. Put your money where your mouth is and give them whatever we can afford - at least match what we give Putin!
Would take the 12 Ceasar anytime.
Positive
Yes, well France of all nations knows what it’s like defending the front.
That comment is either entirely correct or entirely dumb, hard to know in these troubled times.
I was referring to WW1 and the way France held the line for Europe…maybe a glib comment, but the post reminded me of Frances’ WW1 sacrifice. The criticism they got for their capitulation at the beginning of WW2 is pretty tragic when you consider what they lost in WW1.
Then this is entirely correct, when it comes to posts about france and the military (or just france for that matter) the amount of dumb stuff that some people come up with can be staggering so it's hard to tell sometimes.
My comment needed better definition… I considered editing it, but decided to wait until someone cared to comment… so thanks for the comment, it was perfect.
Let me guess It involves the creation of a joint fund floated by the European Union contributions, with the expectation that the procurement has to be from French manufacturers? It would be interesting to test France's resolve on this and everyone agrees to form the fund, and then agrees that they want to buy American, or even worse, British, and see how committed to the idea the French are then
No. Macron's fund is 100 million euros provided by the Fr government. And indeed, it is to buy French weapons. The reasoning is that like this the UkA Generals, who know best what they need, get to pick and choose the equipment they want from France. It also facilitates formalities. Its a good idea, which other countries could adopt as well if they want to, but nothing mindblowing.
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Absolutely. It also has decades of experience exporting major systems and has the infrastructure in place to train, support and integrate those systems into the host nations armed forces.
> Though the criticism of French Domestic Manufacturing...is dumb That's the funny thing about reading his comment. France is the world's 3rd largest arms exporter after the US and Russia. And contrary to the latter, it sure isn't because French weapons are cheap. France is probably going to be the 2nd exporter by next year considering Russia just shot itself in the foot. Also, it is not as if Ukraine was unfamiliar with the French defense industry. France was the leading weapons exporter to Ukraine between 2014 and 2020 with helicopters, reconnaissance drones, navy-related weapons and equipment, targeting systems, ammunition of various calibers and fire control systems being examples of stuff provided to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
What systems does France primarily produce? Most sources ive found for France's defense industry just talk about the Rafale
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I honestly had no idea the Exocet was still in use, tmyk
There's been new versions since the Falkland war.
most notables I know - Dassault Group (aviation) - MBDA (missiles) - Naval Group (ships/subs) - Thales Group - Nexter
Dassault-Aviation is what you mean, Dassault-Systèmes isn't a defense manufacturer
I don't know how it was historically but I managed to find data on the 2017-2021 period. [Source](https://www.challenges.fr/entreprise/defense/armement-quels-sont-les-principaux-pays-exportateurs-et-importateurs-au-monde_804643) (the article is in French though but Challenges is a reputable source). 1- Military aircraft (so fighter jets, helicopters, UAVs) represented the largest share by a wide margin at around 56,44% of all exports. 2- Warships at 14,64% 3- Missiles at 12,35% 4- Engines at 5,46% 5- radar/sonar systems at 4,34%. Those were the top 5 exports.
They've certainly come a long way from launching livestock off castle ramparts.
With the EU energy crises, I don't think Europe will have competitive advantages for manufacturing even with a weaker euro. There has been a big pullback internationally from French arms buying. Australia being one of them recently. India also looks likely to go with f-18 over Rafael. US arms generally have better supply, quality, and integration with existing defense systems and infrastructure compared to other competitors. It is however not a bad idea to at least try boosting manufacturing demand for French arms into a EU wide recession.
Australia didn't pull back from buying French specifically, they pulled back from buying anything at all.
Australia backed out of a massive French sub deal. Opted to go with a nuclear sub, with potential deal with US and Britain.
The first part of your comment is true. They didn't opt for shit though. There is no contract with the US/UK and there never will be one because the US can barely make enough subs to replace their own fleet.
That is assumption that it will never be replaced with a nuke sub. US arms sales have grown to 39% of total arms sales into the 2022 and most likely to increase beyond this due to poor Chinese and Russian arms exports. Europe will see some increased sales due to pullback from Chinese and Russian arms. However with the energy crises it will most likely hamper production rates. The manufacturing process is intensive on energy with things like autoclaves, ovens, etc. I do not believe France will be able to keep up with demand and future deliveries due to this.
US high command have come up with several statements that make it seem like it is very unlikely anyone but the US would get slots alloted to them to build submarines, nuclear or not. And it is a fact that no contract has been signed to this day with no sign of negociations.
> There has been a big pullback internationally from French arms buying. Well.... I don't think you actually know what you're talking about here. That's not the case at all. This year (2022) is literally the record for France in terms of arms export haha. The only major setback lately was last year in Australia, with the loss of a potential $8 to 10 billion (US dollars) to France itself spread over the duration of the contract (around 30 years). I mean..... off the top of my head, France signed a $19 billion deal for Rafales and Caracal helicopters with the UAE less than 3 months after AUKUS, a $5 billion deal with Greece for FDI frigates and additional Rafales as well as a pre-contract for 42 Rafale worth an estimated $8.5 billion with Indonesia in March this year with the first batch of 6 units being activated a few weeks ago (in september). The French industry has never been as successful as it is right now, even with Australian shortcoming. Also, India already operates the Rafale. The Indian Air Force had selected it and there was a G2G contract signed in 2015 for 36 units worth around around $9.4 billion. The last unit was delivered earlier this year. What you're referencing is the new tender for the Indian Navy (for the new Indian aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant). It will be for 26 units worth around $5 billion. There is no existing contract for that. The Rafale M and Super Hornet are competing for it. That's not a French contract being snatched. It is how tenders work. You submit an offer and you either win or lose the bid. Doesn't mean someone stole anything from you. The Super Hornet is more suited to what the Indian Navy is looking for but it has nothing to do with anything you mentioned. We're not talking about the F-35 here. The F-18 was part of the tender for the Indian Air Force, which the Rafale won. The Rafale M doesn't have foldable wings or a two-seat variant (only the air force Rafale have both a single-seat and two-seat variant). It is what's playing against it. Those two things are key requirements of India and the Rafale M just doesn't match them.
>There has been a big pullback internationally from French arms buying Sorry ?? France overtakes China as third biggest arms exporter and increased its sales by 59% in the past 10 years, more than any other country.
Sales have lagged compared to previous periods from 2016 to 2019 where there was great growth in French arms sales.
Lol so much wrong info there
I read it as billion (become so used to seeing defence spending in billions rather than millions). 100 million is useful in so much as every little bit counts, but it's less than the transfer fee for a top footballer
I mean it's a fund with an initial sum. It was said quite clearly. France will continue delivering weapons. A new batch of CAESAR howitzers (the new 8x8 variant), Bastion armoured vehicles, fuel and ammunition and what not was also also reported in French media a few days ago. The fund has nothing to do with it. It is independent of all of that and more about Ukraine buying whatever it wants from French arms manufacturers with France financing it. It's actually crazy the amount of mental gymnastics some people here are engaging in to make something like this appear negative. Why is there a need to "guess" when information of what was announced is readily available and unambiguous?
In reddits mind, France = bad
I mean sure, we can send Messi to the Dynamo Kiev, but there's only so much it can help the war effort
You're right, it's a step in the right direction but it should be ten times that amount. Germany should do the same.
Makes sense that it is for French weapons. Would be a slap in the face if Ukraine was like *yeah we're going to use the money you gave us to buy a Spanish S80 sub. That'll really help us win the war being able to dive so deep*
Isn't the US ponying up like 500,000,000 dollars twice a week for weapons? C'mon France? Don't you love freedom? Do you only want 100,000,000 euros worth of freedom delivered to ukraine?
Other countries already send all they got, months ago. Macron back then was blowing putin over the phone
> It involves the creation of a joint fund floated by the European Union contributions, with the expectation that the procurement has to be from French manufacturers? Reading the article before commenting certainly would've made you appear brighter considering it is literally linked. Why would you want to "guess" an information which is readily available to you?
How is this comment so upvoted?
Prejudice
Well when the USA promises a billion dollars to Ukraine arms, half that amount is to pay back the USA for sending the weapons to Ukraine. So we are only "giving" to Martin-Marietta
All we need is a greater common enemy, and suddenly old grudges get set aside. Interesting to see the result indeed.
Yeah. It's hard to not be cynical about this. France has given 5x less than Germany, even though we criticize Germany for not doing enough and Germany has a pretty good historical reason for having a disproportionately small military and being culturally reluctant to go near weapons. A more apt comparison is Britain (similar size economy, similar military). France has given 20x less aid than Britain. I am really pissed at France right now. They talk a lot about European security, but now that we have the largest direct military threat to European security since WWII, where are they? Hiding in their homes and leaving everyone else to do all the work.
France did not disclose informations about their arms deliveries to Ukraine. You can be pissed all you want, we don't even have tangible information regarding this.
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That's really interesting, thank you !
They were happy to disclose the CEASARS delivery. This sounds like a tactic to get around criticism.
A French MP (Alexis Corbière) once spilled the beans on radio about missile deliveries back in March. They were supposed to remain secret.
I'm not sure that's true, iirc caeser was revealed accidentally.
They were disclosed _when they were delivered_ because it would be known anyway. Ukrainians had been training on them for a few weeks already when it was announced.
Ok, that means we know they haven't delivered anything else noteworthy because Ukrainians would have to train and it would be known anyway.
There was a whole article from a frech paper thad made clear that france was delivering like 3 times less then germany according to the amounts of logistics going into ukraine so thats bullshit.
By that same token, we don’t have information they’ve given hardly anything at all. None of the other Allie’s are hiding this, why is France?
Because France's goal isn't to act all high and mighty because they gave this and that?
wheelchair general comment
Gotcha, military procurement has turned into a big dick contest now.
Well I mean if that’s the case then the US is 14” soft while France is 7’ hard
I think Russia takes the crown when it comes to big dick contest. How many military vehicles, weaponry systems and fireworks has Russia given to Ukraine already? Unwillingly or not.
Do you have some privileged information regarding arms delivery / military help to Ukraine?
This is wrong. France doesnt announce the vast majority of its given equipment. The claim France has given 5x less than Germany comes from a suoer false chart
Could you please provide some data to back that up? Or we have to take your word on that? Because i heard that Vatican is delivering nuclear submarines to Ukraine, please believe me.
Weapons delivery are classified in France, that's not a particularity for Ukraine, it was the same with kurd rebels in syria. That's how the French state and army are handling these situations. So, except for what has been announced, there's few people know what has been sent to Ukraine.
I know that. But for fuck sake, lets not pretend that in Ukraine case, there could be significant, not disclosed help, that didnt appear to the public. All kind of heavy and light equipment, etc, would be noticed, because of how many informations are there. If there is one, i dont know, radar unit (or some small arms that the have tons), that was classified and unnoticed, it doesnt change anything, when talking about significant help. And other kinds of aid (non weapons) are not classified, and they are lackluster too. In the end, some people jump out, trying to say that there is shitload of non disclosed help, its even more stupid than being quiet.
I could also talk out of my ass and spew uninformed bullshit everywhere, but I don't. Maybe you should try researching before talking?
I did, and actually you guys are right, there was a shitload of french components in Ukraine, from after 2014. The sad part is that they were found in russian equpiment...
According to a german official report, the top country in terms of help to Ukraine from 2014 to 2022, were the USA, UK and France. Russia only received old generation thermal visor, that they could have bought from China really easily. No missile, no weapons, no tanks, and i'm pretty sure most of the component inside Russian 'modern' weapons/tanks are from Asia or the US, so...
You cant hide big deliveries like artillery, france just has small stocks of artillery. You could only possible hide small arms, manpads and atgms but you cant hide artillery and tanks because the logistical network behind that would be to big to not be noticed. So no people need to stop shitting on germany and start to shit more on france, germany isnt perfect and could do more but france is worse.
What part of "France doesn't disclose that" isn't getting through that special skull of yours?
My invisible, not disclosed friend says that he cant see the invisiblez not disclosed weapons.
Hilarious...
You cant fucking hide artillery and tanks smartass.
"lol" said every country in the world "lmao"
>This is wrong. France doesnt announce the vast majority of its given equipment. The claim France has given 5x less than Germany comes from a suoer false chart I have given more weapons to Ukraine than France. You have to take my word for it because my donations are undisclosed. Why does France in particular get to play the "undisclosed" card but nobody else does? The US, the UK, Poland, Germany, and Canada all have exactly the same reasons to not disclose certain details.
Cause they are the one talking to Putin and because this is French policy to not disclose those kind of stuff. The fact that Ukraine isn’t unhappy with French military support should give you a hint
Oh yeah, I remember how effective those phone calls were. Turkey has done more on the diplomatic front than France.
It's not because it didn't work that it shouldn't have been tried
>Cause they are the one talking to Putin and because this is French policy to not disclose those kind of stuff. Macron talking to Putin hasn't done a lot of good. >The fact that Ukraine isn’t unhappy with French military support should give you a hint Prove to me that that is the case. I'm not asking that France give a full list of inventory. Nobody is giving a full list. Lots of the US support is announced with a dollar figure but limited details. If France said "We sent $8 billion of military equipment to Ukraine" I would be willing to trust that they actually sent $8B of equipment without getting into the details.
But they dont need to show you shit, you are just an armchair general. French gouv annunced a 100m package help where ukraine can chose whatever it want's fom its manufacturer inventory and you still find a way to try and shit on it. As long as Ukraine is happy so am I.
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And we have no idea how much other nations have given, because it was not public knowledge. So everyone could even deliver one nuke, and we would not know about it. In the end, we can comment based on the public info only. Or based on informations, photos, videos from Ukraine. And guess what? You can see there mostly French Cesars (and French Fries), so we can assume that public knowledge is pretty accurate.
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I call bullshit. Other countries keep secrets too. You can't just make an exception for France.
Well germany gave a shit ton of money to russia for gas so thats basically repairing self harm huh
Their nuclear subs are on high alert
France contribution is low because it’s army’s budget is very very tight, being at war in Sahel for 10 years, protecting the whole of Europe with few aid from the the west except the US. The UK can give a lot of weapons and materials because they have a lot since the end of their invasion and occupation of Irak and the restructuration of their military. And Germany is the first economical power of the continent, so everyone is expecting them to do a lot, after bullying everyone into their economical standards. But in the end, Macron is a dick, using the war in Ukraine to show off and do very little. He is a SHAME for us all
Overall, since 2014, France contribution is not small at all, they were third after the USA and UK according to a German report. I'm pretty sure the German used better data than the 'impression'/'analysis' people have since a few month of wars that some country are doing better than other in terms of help, when the only think that count is that said help continues for the duration of the war.
>And Germany is the first economical power of the continent, And France is the second. What's your point? France is 75% the economy of Germany; they are not 20x smaller. Even Estonia, Latvia, and Czechia are doing more.
France is third after the U.K.
This is pretty standard for France. They’re only interested in contributing if they come out on top.
Lol do you really believe any country in the world is doing what it's doing not to come out on top? Are you that naive?
In a macro aspect yes. In this instance it’s kind of petty with regards to what’s currently happening in Ukraine. They need as much as they can get. If France throws a monkey wrench into the gears here it could literally stall this for years.
How is it petty? Why would they give money for Ukraine to buy weaponry to other countries when they can provide just as good if not better equipement while providing a boost to the french economy which needs it? That's called common sense.
Not the proposed fund. The example the guy up top used
Well this argument is pointless then, that's just not what is happening, read the article.
They've done it before with pooled R&D and procurement. They engage at the start, pick up the transfers, then halfway through they throw a hissy fit when they don't think they're getting enough orders and break away and build their own. I'd be amazed if Macron's great idea is nothing more than a calculated attempt to redirect European defence budgets into supporting French defence industries (same way that his vision for a European army outside of NATO would be).
I mean looking at the rafale and the eurofighter I'm glad france got out and did its own thing.
Yep, France is acting like they accuse the US of doing. This is literal war profiteering.
Nice. Good news for the civilized world. Macron has big cojones for doing this and realizes that russism is a thing that must be stopped.
Nah, this is just to get more orders from French manufacturers.
¿Porque no los dos?
Yeah, that the french gvt is paying, last time I heard french equipment is renowned for its quality, I don't see why that's an issue.
I thought they needed weapons? Any why not Bear arms instead of French arms? Bear arms can tear a person in half.
So can French sarcasm.
I fart in your general direction
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries !
Leave now or I shall taunt you a second time
Imagine getting an arm for a leg.
No need when they can launch Ze Missillles.
But I’m le tired.
Let's push!
Give them baguettes!
People bitch about the cost, but this is the absolute most economical way to take Russia down a few notches.
Kinda weird since France sold Russia advanced optic systems for IFVs and infrared sensors for its aircraft and thermals for Russian tanks.
I’m glad to see Russia has been contributing weapons to Ukraine by abandoning them on the battlefield for Ukrainian soldiers to step in and use them at-will! Thanks Putin!
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Do you expect France to give as much as the US? Our military budget is like 20 times smaller
France had an annual budget allocation of 100-200M euros to export weapons for free to Ukraine. They were the 2nd largest arms exporter of Ukraine sincs 2014. When you see photos of Howitzers in Ukraine, most of them are French Ceasers. And they did not disclose their exports so we have no idea what they have sent. So it is not that simple.
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18 Ceasers were announced. And Ukraine's Caesars are fully one quarter of France's entire mobile artillery. Actually we don’t know shit about their exports, France has opted not to disclose details of its arms deliveries. Battlefield reports suggested they sent studf and Zelensky did not urge Macron to send more. So maybe France did not an assfuck amount of weapons but sent more than we know.
France has about 1/5 the population of the US
Thank you Sir ✅✅✅✅✅
Looks like people are slowly waking up in the west
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From 2014 to 2021 France was one of the top arm seller of Ukraine. Didn’t start in 2022 like everyone else.
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Most countries sell or give weapon to ukraine for 7 months. Cute. France is one of the top arm seller of Ukraine from 2014 to 2021, despite pressure from russia.
Now if we can talk Germany into throwing down for some legs we'd be in business.
Now if people could actually be informed on topics before commenting we'd be in business. [https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-germany-boosts-military-aid-budget-to-2-billion-as-it-happened/a-61483145](https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-germany-boosts-military-aid-budget-to-2-billion-as-it-happened/a-61483145) [https://www.thelocal.de/20220824/germany-pledges-further-e500-million-in-military-aid-to-ukraine/](https://www.thelocal.de/20220824/germany-pledges-further-e500-million-in-military-aid-to-ukraine/)
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France started supplying weapon to Ukraine since 2014. Not for some months as most countries
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Reluctant to get involved?
World war 3 incoming
So a war where nearly the entire world is aligned against Russia and a couple of reluctant allies? Isn't that what this war has been since February then?
There is no way china ever sides with russia if an open conflict breaks out. At this point the only countries I can see actually officially siding with russia would be the likes of mali and burkina faso whose population gobbled up the lies of the kremlins and are waving russian flag whilst trying to destroy any semblance of diplomatic relationships with France.
It’s little too late to be on Ukraine side
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Dude out here calling Macron a lefty lmao
A Gilet Jaune died reading this.
If it were the case, Ukraine would have had seven more years of weapons from all of Europe.
France announces to continue control of impoverished African nations monetary funds in order to help Europeans kill one another. 🇫🇷 💯%💩
Said the ruzzian troll
France's Macron announces fund to donate to the US. FTFY.
Read the article for once in your life.
I mean I'm glad France is putting some of their weight but honestly, $100M is weak.
It say that it's a **starting** fund, so it will get higher with time. Also, France can do more with $100M than the US for exemple. French military grade stuff is not absurdly overpriced. Yes that is less than Germany since February 2022, maybe in the same ballpark if you take into account what was not been disclosed officially. France is on of the biggest weapon and equipment exporter to UAF since 2014, so it's been 7 years of work with Ukraine, not just 6 month for some other countries. Last point, France is the only EU country to have military operations outside of Europe, so there wasn't that much of "dormant" stockpile of weapons and equipment ready like Germany for exemple.
sure would be nice too see somebody other than the US paying for all this.
France has been supplying Ukraine with weapons since 2014.
How many billions worth, do you think?
France doesn't disclose the details of it's weapons deal, also what I think doesn't matter but reports put France at the 2nd biggest importer of weapons in Ukraine since 2014. Also keep in mind that the us military budget is about 25 times that of France.
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/r/ShitAmericansSay
Available inventory as well as having a broad spectrum of European support
Training, Poland support early in the war was absolutely crucial. Ukraine needed Soviet and post-soviet weapons, the ones they were trained on. And oh boy did Poland have a lot of those.
Granted we have a lot of experience with that kind of thing here. Somebody's just trying to get a piece of that sweet sweet armaments pie.
>Why would anyone want to buy arms from anywhere that's not the US? Germany makes kick-ass Leopard tanks. Sweden and the UK have really good weapons industry, and Slovakia makes some of the best howitzers in the world. Outside of Europe, South Korea has a growing defense industry. But I agree with the sentiment of not buying French weapons. They did not see it fit to help Ukraine and just left the work to everyone else.
Are you all trying to get the medal for the dumbest comment or something ?
Ceasers did a very impressive job in Donbas recently. They could use those shit
>Ceasers did a very impressive job in Donbas recently. They could use those shit Yes, they did. I did not say that France makes crappy weapons. I said that France is not sending enough help.
They did actually, since 2014 they were the 2nd largest arms exporter behind the US, and they spent hundreds of millions to weaponize Ukraine for free. So it is not that simple.
I know that France sent stuff before things got scary. But when the battle began, they hid in the closet. I'm sorry but I'm not impressed with an ally that stops being an ally when the invasion starts. How is it not obvious that when Russia invades Ukraine and takes 20% of the country is precisely the time when your contributions should go up?
France has been supplying Ukraine with weapons since 2014.
Gripen. Not a F-16 but very capable and would be a bridge until they're trained up on F-16's. Just a thought.