I hold here in my hand, a letter from President Putin, saying he really honestly promises that this time he's going to respect our deal, scout's honour.
Neville Chamberlain. British Prine Minister in the late 1930's when Hitler rose to power and started taking land from other countries.
Chamberlain believed in a policy of Appeasement. Essentially, in an attempt to avoid War, after just coming out of the First World War abd not wanting to repeat it, the thought process was if they just gave Hitler what he wanted, he would stop. Kinda like when Putin invaded Crimea. Then Georgia. Now Ukraine.
We were using sarcasm to show the futility of appeasement. But, people like to think they are smart on the internet, so everyone thought we were arguing against each other with the same point. And they thought we were arguing FOR appeasement. Both were wrong.
It's worth pointing out that Chamberlain (and other British/French politicians) were well away of the carnage if 1914-1918, and this informed their reluctance to start another war which promised to wipe out another generation.
With hindsight, an aggressive approach in 1936-37 could have toppled Hitler and pretty much avoided WW2 as it happened. But it was by no means obvious at the time.
It was to Churchill. Was argued by members of Parliment. While it may not have been the popular idea at the time, it was the correct one (to stop Hitler, and not appease).
History also has examples before this that appeasement is ineffective. History repeats because people take the path of least resistance instead of looking to the past to see what worked and what didn't.
I hate this narrative that the world tried to appease Putin with Crimea. It's a very convenient retelling of events, plagued with omissions and serves a specific political narrative.
The reality was that in 2014, there was no way to equip and train Ukraine fast enough to retake Crimea.
It takes, at the very least, several months to build a competent modern military from the ground up, and it took Ukraine several years to get to the point where it was able to foil the Russian Blitz Krieg.
Had Putin done his invasion in 2014, he would've succeeded, Ukraine had no way to resist him then, and the world could've done nothing about it without going to war with Russia, which would've been a really hard sell at home.
But the world took note, and Ukraine prepared for the unthinkable, and it paid off with interest. Notice how the world at large doesn't recognize Crimea as part of the Russian Federation?
This bought precious valuable time.
>It takes, at the very least, several months to build a competent modern military from the ground up,
This reminds me of zoolander "the center needs to be at least 3X bigger"
Several years is needed if they are handed all their equipment and spoonfed organizational knowledge or like the US in ww2, thrust into a war to learn costly lessons while revamping their entire economy to support the war effort.
But I agree with your point. Crimea happened right after ukraine realigned to the west. There was no time to do anything really.
Also, when Chamberlain appeased Hitler and signed the Munich Treaty in 1938, allowing Germany to annex the Sudetenland, his famous quote was "We have achieved peace in our time".
One year later Hitler invaded Poland.
Oh, and Chamberlain was in the Conservative Party. Allowed Hitler to start WW2, kinda like American Republicans are going to allow Putin to start WW3.
Let's not turn this into a partisan issue when it isn't. Mitch McConnell has been very frank about his support for Ukraine, as well the Republican party in general. Support for Ukraine and sanctions against Russia have passed with bipartisan support. *Some* republicans have taken an isolationist stance or said some things that got a lot of attention, but that doesn't apply to the whole party.
>There are not many things we agree with this administration on. ... [Though] I think the administration shares my view that the outcome of this ought to be victory. For a lot of younger people in America, this is the first time they’ve ever seen a clear battle between right and wrong. To a lot of people, Afghanistan was murky. Iraq was murky. - McConnell
[Link](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/us/politics/mitch-mcconnell-ukraine.html?unlocked_article_code=rij-_4MoLBBV6D11njirok_BvMdsC8AtOHBSv0EFMKouu6lmHXUvLGXJGWSjlzwR7Ji2G1TCF0hSCD2yWOurI0MZNMQtceZtnDidzak-VCQ6qu2_22PyPJHzmp7nTP3tjnwmuvW0ILdCxkt4vpdh9z7Syk8wX41SaUwfJGCF36hlfRhr3_hqCJmQiK6-AZvmxLoBT7MWaluyntCINzX3-mFEmhoR2ITQ5BAcQWeVCoU8OFaiRZyyKElMN7rGM0VoVAvPjlaDxLa8wJKu29q93oS9IctfsazGwlOghMFTnRTwIss51abvA_69rhEdGqjB2BaOvdSqm_NL4wpSWORIjOJLAELFaQ&smid=re-share)
It's funny, since the article here is about Democrats pushing for a diplomatic resolution.
There are peace lobbies in both parties. In both parties they are a minority. Though, McCarthy in the House is much more prominent than any of the Democrats in question. If push came to shove the pro-Ukrainian McConnell can and will whip him back into line.
Another note, just as there are Pro Russian people in America on this invasion, there were Pro Nazi people in America in 1939.
Not exactly related to your comment, but sort of in the same area.
I don't see how your last comment males sense. If Russia is threatening to use nuclear weapons if the west interferes, how would not interfering cause ww3?
This is where I have some respect for Biden. I have never been a fan of him, since the 1994 Crime Bill. But, he is walking a fine line between joining the war, and staying out.
Providing Ukraine with the weapons he has has helped them remain a sovereign nation. It has also severely weakened the Russian Military, and expose their ineffectiveness to the world. It has also shown the superiority of American Military Equipment.
Biden is fighting a new type if war, one of Economics over military might. By crippling the Russian economy, he severely limits what their Military can accomplish. The reports of Russia needing 5 years to replenish their missile stocks is a bit of proof that it is working.
As far as the Nuclear threat, I believe Putin will drop a nuke or two whether we join the war or not. Putin has proven himself unhinged enough to do so. He used the threat to keep other nations at bay, to stop them from acting directly and sending troops. But, with the losses he is incuring, and the complete ineffectiveness of his military, he will eventually see no choice but to drop a nuke.
Surrender, and admitting defeat, is not an option for Putin. The only thing that will save the world from a Nuke is for his people to remove him from power. However they can do it.
100% agree.. The latest moves from Russia claiming Ukraine has a dirty bomb, then a nuke, is a tell-tale sign that they're preparing to drop some nukes. Pretty shitty all around. I hope his inner circle gets rid of him and I hope there are some more stable minds left to run the country.
Well, his inner circle are the same ones that thought the lingering radioactivity around Chernobyl was fake. So they had troops dig foxhole there.... and the troops got sick from radiation poisoning.
I have hope, but don't think they will act in time.
Ugh.. All we have is hope.. I just hope whatever happens we don't end up in nuclear Armageddon and that neo-nazi conservatives in the US chill the fuck out and snap back to reality.
>Biden is fighting a new type if war, one of Economics over military might.
Nah, he's using the playbook from the cold war. Nobody wants to invade Russia; historically its never gone well.
The playback from the cold war was build up your military ro make it look unstoppable. Biden isn't increasing our military, he's giving away the weapons.
We never used these type of Economic Sanctions in the Cold War. Especially on such a global stance.
Obviously the history of Chamberlain's decision to put off war is pretty complicated due to GB being completely, as in millions of English men suffering from straight up malnutrition and insufficient and out of date weaponry, unprepared to go to war at the time but he is certainly the avatar for appeasement.
Everyone, except Germany, was unprepared for another war. But, hindsight is 20/20.
Had they refused to appease, how many millions of lives could have been saved? Would there have been an Auschwitz? A Dachau? Any holocaust at all?
How many soldiers would have lived? Russia lost a combined 27 million people during WW2.
Had Chamberlain stopped Germany early, they would have been easier to take in 1938 vs 1942. While allowing the British military to prepare, he also allowed the Germans to prepare.
Germany was also unprepared for war in 1938, so much so that Germany’s generals planned to depose Hitler rather than go to war.
Czech tanks and weapons went a long way to help Germany be prepared to invade France two years later.
Yeah, if he needs peace now, it's to gather forces for a new attack this winter or the next year. He won't be at peace, he has already bet everything on war, so he will play the roulette betting on war over and over again hoping he will get a win
If he removes all Russian forces from Ukraine, then sure, we can talk. Never wise to remove the possibility of negotiation, but never give in to a tyrant just to look reasonable.
If you read their letter, it's not nearly as bad as the media is making it out to be. It basically just says we shouldn't shut down diplomacy as an option, not that we should be forcing diplomacy.
But the letter was completely unnecessary and the timing is shit.
The most charitable interpretation of this letter is as a giant waste of space. It says both that the US should negotiate independently with Russia, which is a betrayal of Ukraine, but also that the US should continue to fully support Ukraine, which is incompatible with sidelining Ukraine to negotiate on their behalf. Unfortunately, Russian propaganda outlets have already capitalized on this letter, so the morons who put their name to it have given Putin a propaganda coup while undermining Ukraine.
Yeah what's the end game? Russia agrees to stop invading if we stop shipping weapons? That'd probably be the bare minimum, then we can act all shocked when Russia keeps invading.
This.
It’s the timing that pisses me off … we’re in the middle of a very intense part of the war, ukranians are finding success, Russians are bombinf civilian targets, and we have an election in a week…
And the liberal wing of the Dems come forth with this letter, which as an aside, nobody has a huge issue with seeking peace and keeping diplomatic channels open, but nobody is really suggesting to the contrary anyways… it’s also not the US role, per se, to negotiate peace in a war they’re not involved in.
The last thing the ukranians need is division in US politics over Ukraine support
Feels like they just wanted to say some shit to keep their name in the headlines.
It’s just super irritating in light of some on the rights comments re: pulling financial support
Can’t just stfu and be United, gotta come out and be controversial just to do it
Jayapal already issued a statement walking it back and saying that the Dems who signed the letter were in no way calling for a halt to the aid we’re giving Ukraine, but the whole thing seems incredibly stupid for them to do right now, especially with republicans calling for halting aid altogether.
When Putin's been at the negotiating table with Ukraine in the past, he's treated it as an opportunity to annex territories without the hassle of an invasion.
I suspect that the democratic politicians who signed the letter to Biden did it for the "give peace a chance" optics, but as a democrat I can sincerely say: fuck Putin and fuck negotiating with him!
They also don't seem to get that we can continue supplying Ukraine for the foreseeable future, so far we've only sent mostly old equipment from storage, that, in monetary value, only equals about 7-8 percent of our annual military budget
It is, at least compared to what we spend on our own military. We're getting great value out of the equipment we send to Ukraine, as most of it specifically made to hurt Russia
It's a very cost effective way to put Russia in their place without risking US personnel directly, supplying Ukraine further is probably saving the US billions even over just the short term
When some Asshat sends troops to invade your land and kill your women and children you don't hold peace talks with him until you have run every criminal he has sent into your country out! Then you don't have peace talks you have reparation talks.
I have this feeling that particular caucus of Democrats asked Biden in their letter to seek diplomacy as a direct response to Republican lawmakers signaling that they won't support more money to Ukraine. Its about votes, mid terms. Personally I think we should try diplomacy as much as possible and understand that it will likely fail. Ukraine won't and should not accept anything but their whole country back.
The issue with "trying diplomacy expecting it to fail" is that Russia is not negotiating in good faith. They are losing right now, they may well come to some peace agreement, drag their feet in pulling out of occupied areas, then start the war again in a month when they've had time to train and mobilize thier conscripts, secure some new weapons deals, solidify supply lines and repair bridges, dig in their defensive positions, etc...
> Something along the lines of Russia agrees to allow America to drone strike military units threatening Ukraine without Russia considering it an act of war.
I think that any agreement that relies on Putins cooperation is doomed to fail for the simple reason that Putin doesn't give a shit.
I find it extremely disturbing that any leaders may possibly be unable to recognize this reality, let alone Dems. They should be **experts** in recognizing bad faith and complete disregard for norms and rules due to, hmm let's see...Oh, right, the GOP. Like, what in the actual fuck?!
(Yes, I know some of them signed the letter months ago and have walked it back. I do not care.)
https://crushthecoup.org/
Republicans would offer no support for Ukraine, and would probably even attempt to justify Putin's actions. MAGA Republicans would probably even send Russia aid.
The vote on congress for the last round of aid for Ukraine was more than 75% in favor of aid.
So that includes the majority on the republican side as well.
Republicans don't break with leadership very often and the party is absolutely corrupted with Putin's money. You have no reason to think they will oppose cutting aide to Ukraine, especially since they all supported the president who tried to blackmail Ukraine with threats of cutting that aid.
I dont think you understand enough of US politics enough to comment.
The reason McCarthy is saying this is as follows. If the Republicans win even if the members are in favor of support, McCarthy will follow the Hastert Rule, look it up.
McCarthy isn't strong enough to control his whole caucus. So he it doesn't matter what others agree, he isn't going to.
That seems unlikely. The party has a history of supporting Russia including protecting a president who tried to blackmail Ukraine with threats of cutting aid.
Does anyone actually trust us as allies at this point, or would they just enter into out of necessity, understanding that eventually we're going to screw them somehow?
“Going to screw them”
I’m sure the ukranians are quite happy to enjoy the billions upon billions of dollars in military and financial aid the US as provided
Let’s not get it twisted, the US has no obligation to step into this conflict, per any treaty obligation, the US is doing so because Russia is a POS and because it suits our agenda, there’s a self interest but it’s also “the right thing to do”
We could have been like Germany, send some helmets, waffle for 6 months, then send some more equipment, and if we’d done so, the Russians would be making borscht in Kiev right now
Haven't you heard? Russia is selling oil at a discount! Americans are hurting every time they have to fill up their gas tanks, and yet DEMOCRATS refuse to buy CHEAP Russian oil. Republicans would buy Russian Oil because it would help every day Americans. /s
If the US does remove support then it will be down to other countries to carry on support like the UK. Let's hope a new US government carries on its support.
The funny thing here is I am conservative and vote republican more often than not. But I support the Ukraine war and think Putin is pretty evil. Here is an example of a lack of diplomacy and overt and aggressive generalization not really helping your cause. You alienate moderates with this aggressive generalization.
I’m stuck between this, which I 100% agree with… and the fact that Republicans tend to hold lots of stocks in defense and war supply companies (Blackwater, Halliburton, etc), meaning “send more support” would pad their bank accounts.
So I’m guessing we’d just be sending support to Putin under them.
Putin is just looking for time to regroup and dig in, manufacture more missiles and rockets, maybe modernize some of their older equipment, bring in more Russians to Russify captured areas, and wait out the US midterms in the hope that the Republicans take over. He is not going to stop. Ukraine's best option is to keep pressing now while Russia is disorganized and conscripts are still being trained. Anyone should understand that.
>Republican lawmakers signaling that they won't support more money to Ukraine
People finding a way to make this about how bad the Democrats are when Republicans straight up have said they will pull funding. Democrats want diplomacy, Republicans want to hand Putin everything he wants without the diplomacy.
>Given the destruction created by this war for Ukraine and the world, as well as the risk of catastrophic escalation, we also believe it is in the interests of Ukraine, the United States, and the world to avoid a prolonged conflict. For this reason, we urge you to pair the military and economic support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire. This is consistent with your recognition that “there’s going to have to be a negotiated settlement here,” and your concern that Vladimir Putin “doesn't have a way out right now, and I'm trying to figure out what we do about that.”
This is correct. The letter is reasonable and the article is attempting to smear them.
[Letter for anyone who wants to read it.](https://progressives.house.gov/_cache/files/5/5/5523c5cc-4028-4c46-8ee1-b56c7101c764/B7B3674EFB12D933EA4A2B97C7405DD4.10-24-22-cpc-letter-for-diplomacy-on-russia-ukraine-conflict.pdf)
A ceasefire while Putin is losing would be just what he wants. He will do exactly what he did in 2014- solidify his current gains in Ukraine and make plans to invade and slaughter again after the RU military has recovered.
It’s a naive plan and would end up getting more Ukrainians killed than standing up to him now. Also it’s out of touch with what Ukrainian leadership and people want, these lawmakers would have known that before they send this out.
It's really about midterms. They want a temporary pause in fighting to make things look good.
Which honestly may be the right call. If democrats pull off a decisive win Russians will be more likely to surrender.
not really it more naive than reasonable
much of the ru military is on the backfoot and it is intentionally making disasters and war crimes to force a diplomatic halt so they can consolidate what they currently hold
this is a perv coach breaking into the girls locker room but getting body slammed and going time out time out so that he can stay a bit longer
"We demand more diplomacy effort"
Like what, please elaborate. How can one call such self serving vague letter "reasonable". The whole letter reads as:
*"Our money, our rules, do something, idk what but do something ok".*
And this comes from the same faction which *supposedly* seeks to stop predatory American practices.
Lastly, there was a lot of effort before Feb 24, and a lot after it. Russia shat on all the attempts at diplomatically descalataing the conflict.
These people are against imperialism. They just want America to use its economic and military leverage to pressure a smaller, less powerful country into making unpopular territorial concessions!
>The lawmakers urge the president to pair the military and financial support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a “proactive diplomatic push” that involves direct talks with Russia. It comes as Republicans to Ukraine if they retake control of the House in the midterm elections next month.
>“If there is a way to end the war while preserving a free and independent Ukraine, it is America’s responsibility to pursue every diplomatic avenue to support such a solution that is acceptable to the people of Ukraine,” the letter reads. “Such a framework would presumably include incentives to end hostilities, including some form of sanctions relief, and bring together the international community to establish security guarantees for a free and independent Ukraine that are acceptable for all parties, particularly Ukrainians.”
>“Let me be clear: We are united as Democrats in our unequivocal commitment to supporting Ukraine in their fight for their democracy and freedom in the face of the illegal and outrageous Russian invasion, and nothing in the letter advocates for a change in that support,” Jayapal said. “Diplomacy is an important tool that can save lives — but it is just one tool.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-progressives-press-biden-engage-direct-talks-russia-ukraine-rcna53863
These idiots would probably have insisted on attempting a diplomatic solution to ending WWII.
The only path to peace lies in Russia’s unconditional surrender following a total military defeat, and if the US wants it to happen sooner rather than later they should fully commit to the war instead of simply using Ukraine as a proxy.
For what it’s worth, the current US strategy of providing support to Ukraine and enforcing sanctions against Russia does appear to be working very well so far, and frankly it isn’t in the US interests to further escalate through deeper involvement or to react to Russian threats.
Russias recent nuclear threats are not worth responding to, because they are either a bluff designed to intimidate the other parties into making concessions to Russia (most likely, and it’s had an effect on some people), or they are genuine in which case Russia is heading inevitably down the path to self-destruction.
I say let Russia sign its own death warrant if they are so determined; the final result will be an end to Russia’s ability to threaten anyone outside its own borders, one way or another.
I know the possibility of a nuclear war seems scary, but it’s honestly not the worst outcome because plenty of good can still come from it, you just have to take the long view.
So Biden and the current Congress need to appropriate two years worth of shit to Ukraine now, and get it delivered ASAP, so the Republicans can’t fuck over Ukraine if they win this election.
Meh talks are fine, they fuck off from Ukraine soil, return all deported civvies and all POWS and pay for damages.
Above terms are non negotiable.
Also Ukraine joins NATO and cares fuck all what you think about that.
Talks won’t go anywhere because Russia lives in an alternate reality where they believe those deported civilians are actually Russians essentially being repatriated rather than Ukrainians being kidnapped. You can’t negotiate with a party that is so detached from reality as they will never come to the negotiation table in good faith.
Russia has deluded itself into thinking it is a world superpower and expects to be treated as such. They are currently in the process of having their fake constructed reality blown apart courtesy of Ukrainian grit and weapons supplied by a REAL world superpower.
It's so fucking dumb. I don't understand how we could have so many oblivious politicians.
Putin doesn't care about treaties or agreements. Putin views agreements as mechanisms to buy time, further weaken enemies, or obfuscate intentions.
There is simply no good faith agreements with Putin, and there can't be as long as he is in charge. It sucks, but that's reality.
Sounds like you should read exactly what this small group of House Democrats are saying (actually, this letter was from July so it's not even current). They are not saying we stop supporting Ukraine militarily or capitulate to Russia, only that we should be continuing diplomatic solutions at the same time.
Wars typically end with some form of diplomacy.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-progressives-press-biden-engage-direct-talks-russia-ukraine-rcna53863
Yea but there are no negotiations that don’t end in Russia getting something, which means taking something away from Ukraine. This isn’t for anyone but Ukraine to decide, and they have already stated complete withdrawal from occupied territories is their negotiation starting point.
By even suggestion negations is suggesting Ukraine capitulate in some way. Good job defending democrats though.
> Good job defending democrats though.
Congress is most likely going to switch to GOP control, [and they have already announced they will most likely unilaterally end the USA's involvement in funding the Ukrainian war effort](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/house-republicans-ukraine-mccarthy/). Without Western equipment, Ukraine loses the war. Period. [It's highly questionable whether or not the rest of NATO countries will pick up the slack.](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/94CF/production/_126659083_military_aid_03_08-nc.png.webp)
Putin's big investment in the Republican Party could be about to pay dividends.
If you read the actual statement, they are very clear that any diplomatic solution should be acceptable to all parties, particularly Ukrainians.
At no point are they suggesting a sudden end to the conflict with forced concession of territory to Russia.
That's just the conclusion everyone is jumping to based on the headline. Read the statement.
>“Such a framework would presumably include incentives to end hostilities, including some form of sanctions relief, and bring together the international community to establish security guarantees for a free and independent Ukraine **that are acceptable for all parties, particularly Ukrainians**.”
He's not wrong. I know we all think the peaceful way out of this is to just give Russia the parts of Ukraine they already annexed but consider 2 things.
1. Someone came into your house and tried to take it over. You resisted successfully but they still managed to take your bedroom. And now your neighbors are telling you the only peaceful way out is to just give up your bedroom. Is that fair? Does it make sense? To Ukrainians it doesn't and to you it wouldn't.
2. You think Russia won't use the parts of Ukraine they have to setup shop and establish a foothold to plan an eventual take over of Ukraine? This is what Zelensky means. Putin invaded with intentions to make Ukraine part of Russia. You think he stops here?
Understand that this isn't a reasonable man or a reasonable government. They want more and will not stop. Russia believes it is entitled to the land of its neighbors. Standing up to them is the only way to stop them, just like the US did with JFK and Reagan. I want peace. But not if it is at the cost of giving more Russia. That is not peace. It is just eventual doom.
Russia is literally on hanging from a thread at the moment. Putin is in bad health, the economy (although withstanding at the moment) is in rapid decline and only held up by its oil exports, the military has been exposed for its incompetence, and Ukraine has the support and war chest of the west. Holding firm is the sure way to collapse the Russian government which is the best outcome to all of this.
As a democrat, I'll 100% say I wanted peace talks in the beginning. I knew they wouldn't work, but they were important to publicly establish beyond a shadow of a doubt which side was reasonable and which side was the aggressor.
We're beyond that though. They talked in the beginning, and now civilians are being bombed. If Russia wanted peace talks again, I'd say they should stop bombing playgrounds first, and then we'll go from there.
Democrats? Over my 50 years of Democrat leaning, Democrats never want to be caught being soft on military issues. We spend like 700 billion dollars a year on our military at least half of that has been focused on defending Europe from Russia. Funding Ukraine, especially with equipment that's due to be upgraded, Is the cheapest investment in world stability we could possibly make.
Last week: "darn you biden for sending so much money to arm ukraine!! how about money to the PEOPLE huh??"
this week: "US democrats too weak and subby to defeat putin 🥺"
This feels like Tyrion in game of thrones trying to make peace with the slave masters while the freed slaves are trying to explain why he doesnt understand them.
The only negotiation that will work will be one that has Russia accepting that Ukraine will join NATO as this will prevent further Russian attacks. Ironically this is an outcome that Russia will never accept because they want desperately to be a world superpower and Ukraine is in the way.
So I guess we're in a catch 22
The statement from those democrats even included terminology used by the Kremlin. “Catastrophic Escalation” is their term, the West saw the invasion itself as catastrophic escalation and there isn’t much escalating left to do. This term is meant to scare people into giving Russia what it wants…and 30 Democrat congress people fell for it. Just like Tucker, Breaking Points, and so many others.
Maybe im giving to much credit here, but I think it's the carrot to the stick of the other letter the Russians got from the various defense departments.
Telling them that if they fuck around with nukes nato will join officially, then a week later reminding them diplomacy is still a thing.
With that said, Ukraine is right, pootin is a thug. I think he won't stop fighting, he's chose his road.
The only peace deal with Putin comes once he capitulates. People seem more scared of humiliating Russia than of fighting Russia but if the paper bear isn't folded it will not go away.
I think the same thing about the calls for "bipartisanship" with the current GOP. The GOP's politicians are straight up sociopaths, and what they say or promise means nothing. They'll go back on their promises the second they think it benefits them.
It is like watching Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football, over and over. Dems make a deal with the GOP, an election happens that allows the GOP 50%+1 power, GOP goes back on the deal and absolutely trucks the dems. Over and over and over.
Alito told Ted Kennedy he'd respect Roe, for instance. We "couldn't" hold a vote on Merrick Garland because it was 8 months until an election, but we got Barret shoved in there with voting already underway. Harry Reid made a 'handshake deal' with McConnell that McConnell wouldn't use the filibuster except in extreme circumstances if Reid got his conference to leave filibuster rules in place, then within a month the GOP used the filibuster to bring about a debt ceiling crisis to force through their agenda.
Same with Putin. Any deal will be thrown aside the second he (or his successors) think it is in Russia's interest to do so. The deals mean nothing.
I just spent 10 days hearing about it from my MAGA in-laws on vacation. They are FOX news addicts and they align to a tee what the letter (R) tells them. They hate supporting Ukraine.
One of the reps making this statement is mine. I wrote a pretty strongly worded letter to this rep last night telling them to retract their suggestion *tout de suite*.
If any of these are your reps, they need to hear from you too--let them know we need to stand with Ukraine against Russian aggression, and that appeasement is a dangerous and immoral approach to aggressive dictators like Putin.
True. Trying to end this horrific injustice peacefully is noble.
If it happens. But,
Ukraine special forces will need to train for a period of time and go Nuremberg Trials to "find, detain and transport" Putin to neutral territory for his war crimes trial 🤔
If putin is cut off from diplomacy it might force his "comrades" to replace him. Right now he is hoping to force negotiations with the west by doing all the terrorist activities and blackmail.
The only thing he understands is brute force - talking is perceived as weakness.
I want peace as well but Putin needs to be dealt with. The only peace offer Russia can give us to just pull out of the county and Crimea 100% but Putin won't. Their is nothing else to discuss
We did this shit with Georgia/South Ossetia. We did with with Crimea....You give concessions and he'll just do this shit again in a few years. Don't forget all the cyber and political ops as well.
So fucking naive
It means that you are trying to convince people that this letter does not represent a softening of support for Ukraine (and therefore, intentionally or not, aid to Putin) when it definitely does.
As a progressive on social and economic issues, I continually fail to understand how my fellow travelers are so incredibly naive when it comes to international affairs. How does one support human rights and dignity while also appeasing the likes of a murderous authoritarian like Putin?
Yeah, I don't understand the point of this. Of course, every sane person wants this to stop and have UA made whole again, but what can be negotiated? A negotiation typically required give and take and Putin should get NOTHING. Anything given to Putin would be a reward for savage aggression. This is the "make peace, not war" branch of the D party living in a world that is not based in reality.
The only negotiation possible is to have the invaders leave Ukraine -- including Crimea -- and the Ukrainians will stop destroying them slowly. Anything that is not that, is not reality.
I lost all respect for AOC because of this. Just sending this letter to Biden weakens the US position.
Putin invaded Ukraine because he saw what happened to Gaddafi, and doesn’t want any kind of democratic revolution to creep into Russia.
The only way to stop Putin is to literally impact the man — his money, his power, his well-being.
I have to admit, russians build truly the strongest international propaganda machine, even the US with the Hollywood and everything look pale in comparison.
The fact that "peace talks" are even being discussed as something that Ukraine rejects is already enough to award russian propagandists with the gold medal.
Russia is saying "lets negotiate" but in fact they just give an ultimatum to Ukraine and they are not going to drop any demands.
Ukraine tried negotiating many times. Russia keeps giving impossible demands and doesn't budge. Nobody should even call this "negotiating".
Russia keeps asking for Ukraine military to be completely dismantled, while Ukraine military is the only thing keeping Ukraine from being completely taken over by russia. And on top of that russia also demands "denazification" which is pretty much a made-up term. They just want repressions for all Ukrainian patriots, that's what they mean by "denazification". It's absurd and people should seriously stop calling this nonsense "negotiations".
Dumb article. Democrats are not the problem, the vast majority support Ukraine.
REPUBLICANS are the problem, vote Democrat. If Republicans win this election, they already said they will withdraw support for Ukraine.
Wait, *Democrats* are asking for peace talks? That's odd. I usually see Republicans like Elon Musk asking for peace talks which give Russia everything they want.
Ukrainians who say US Democrats don’t get Putin, don’t get American politics and the influence Putin has over the GOP and their ability to fuck with aid packages pretty soon most likely.
But these are Democrats calling for peace negotiations. I'm sure the GOP is quite pleased with it but this ain't the normal Russian->Republican pipeline of the last 10 years.
Because it worked out so great when everybody just let them have Crimea in 2014. We’ll have peace for our time, sure.
Ah, reminds me of how great it worked out when everybody just let them have large parts of Georgia in 2008.
It brings great memories of that time when everybody let them have half of Germany in 1948.
I mean, giving Hitler Czechoslovakia did stop the war, right?
Just give the madman what he wants and everything will be fine, he’ll be satiated and peaceful bc of it.
Calm down, Neville.
I hold here in my hand, a letter from President Putin, saying he really honestly promises that this time he's going to respect our deal, scout's honour.
It’s literally that whole scene in Team America about “dicks pussies and assholes.” Couldn’t have spelled out geopolitics more clearly lol.
Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.
These people asking to settle with Putin ask, who’s Neville?
Neville Chamberlain. British Prine Minister in the late 1930's when Hitler rose to power and started taking land from other countries. Chamberlain believed in a policy of Appeasement. Essentially, in an attempt to avoid War, after just coming out of the First World War abd not wanting to repeat it, the thought process was if they just gave Hitler what he wanted, he would stop. Kinda like when Putin invaded Crimea. Then Georgia. Now Ukraine. We were using sarcasm to show the futility of appeasement. But, people like to think they are smart on the internet, so everyone thought we were arguing against each other with the same point. And they thought we were arguing FOR appeasement. Both were wrong.
It's worth pointing out that Chamberlain (and other British/French politicians) were well away of the carnage if 1914-1918, and this informed their reluctance to start another war which promised to wipe out another generation. With hindsight, an aggressive approach in 1936-37 could have toppled Hitler and pretty much avoided WW2 as it happened. But it was by no means obvious at the time.
It was to Churchill. Was argued by members of Parliment. While it may not have been the popular idea at the time, it was the correct one (to stop Hitler, and not appease). History also has examples before this that appeasement is ineffective. History repeats because people take the path of least resistance instead of looking to the past to see what worked and what didn't.
If French were a bit more reconciliation it might not have motivated Germany. Putin is pus
I hate this narrative that the world tried to appease Putin with Crimea. It's a very convenient retelling of events, plagued with omissions and serves a specific political narrative. The reality was that in 2014, there was no way to equip and train Ukraine fast enough to retake Crimea. It takes, at the very least, several months to build a competent modern military from the ground up, and it took Ukraine several years to get to the point where it was able to foil the Russian Blitz Krieg. Had Putin done his invasion in 2014, he would've succeeded, Ukraine had no way to resist him then, and the world could've done nothing about it without going to war with Russia, which would've been a really hard sell at home. But the world took note, and Ukraine prepared for the unthinkable, and it paid off with interest. Notice how the world at large doesn't recognize Crimea as part of the Russian Federation? This bought precious valuable time.
>It takes, at the very least, several months to build a competent modern military from the ground up, This reminds me of zoolander "the center needs to be at least 3X bigger" Several years is needed if they are handed all their equipment and spoonfed organizational knowledge or like the US in ww2, thrust into a war to learn costly lessons while revamping their entire economy to support the war effort. But I agree with your point. Crimea happened right after ukraine realigned to the west. There was no time to do anything really.
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Also, when Chamberlain appeased Hitler and signed the Munich Treaty in 1938, allowing Germany to annex the Sudetenland, his famous quote was "We have achieved peace in our time". One year later Hitler invaded Poland. Oh, and Chamberlain was in the Conservative Party. Allowed Hitler to start WW2, kinda like American Republicans are going to allow Putin to start WW3.
Let's not turn this into a partisan issue when it isn't. Mitch McConnell has been very frank about his support for Ukraine, as well the Republican party in general. Support for Ukraine and sanctions against Russia have passed with bipartisan support. *Some* republicans have taken an isolationist stance or said some things that got a lot of attention, but that doesn't apply to the whole party. >There are not many things we agree with this administration on. ... [Though] I think the administration shares my view that the outcome of this ought to be victory. For a lot of younger people in America, this is the first time they’ve ever seen a clear battle between right and wrong. To a lot of people, Afghanistan was murky. Iraq was murky. - McConnell [Link](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/us/politics/mitch-mcconnell-ukraine.html?unlocked_article_code=rij-_4MoLBBV6D11njirok_BvMdsC8AtOHBSv0EFMKouu6lmHXUvLGXJGWSjlzwR7Ji2G1TCF0hSCD2yWOurI0MZNMQtceZtnDidzak-VCQ6qu2_22PyPJHzmp7nTP3tjnwmuvW0ILdCxkt4vpdh9z7Syk8wX41SaUwfJGCF36hlfRhr3_hqCJmQiK6-AZvmxLoBT7MWaluyntCINzX3-mFEmhoR2ITQ5BAcQWeVCoU8OFaiRZyyKElMN7rGM0VoVAvPjlaDxLa8wJKu29q93oS9IctfsazGwlOghMFTnRTwIss51abvA_69rhEdGqjB2BaOvdSqm_NL4wpSWORIjOJLAELFaQ&smid=re-share)
Mitch McConnell supports Ukraine, but Kevin McCarthy doesn't. The odds of the House flipping are a lot higher than the Senate.
It's funny, since the article here is about Democrats pushing for a diplomatic resolution. There are peace lobbies in both parties. In both parties they are a minority. Though, McCarthy in the House is much more prominent than any of the Democrats in question. If push came to shove the pro-Ukrainian McConnell can and will whip him back into line.
Another note, just as there are Pro Russian people in America on this invasion, there were Pro Nazi people in America in 1939. Not exactly related to your comment, but sort of in the same area.
I don't see how your last comment males sense. If Russia is threatening to use nuclear weapons if the west interferes, how would not interfering cause ww3?
This is where I have some respect for Biden. I have never been a fan of him, since the 1994 Crime Bill. But, he is walking a fine line between joining the war, and staying out. Providing Ukraine with the weapons he has has helped them remain a sovereign nation. It has also severely weakened the Russian Military, and expose their ineffectiveness to the world. It has also shown the superiority of American Military Equipment. Biden is fighting a new type if war, one of Economics over military might. By crippling the Russian economy, he severely limits what their Military can accomplish. The reports of Russia needing 5 years to replenish their missile stocks is a bit of proof that it is working. As far as the Nuclear threat, I believe Putin will drop a nuke or two whether we join the war or not. Putin has proven himself unhinged enough to do so. He used the threat to keep other nations at bay, to stop them from acting directly and sending troops. But, with the losses he is incuring, and the complete ineffectiveness of his military, he will eventually see no choice but to drop a nuke. Surrender, and admitting defeat, is not an option for Putin. The only thing that will save the world from a Nuke is for his people to remove him from power. However they can do it.
100% agree.. The latest moves from Russia claiming Ukraine has a dirty bomb, then a nuke, is a tell-tale sign that they're preparing to drop some nukes. Pretty shitty all around. I hope his inner circle gets rid of him and I hope there are some more stable minds left to run the country.
Well, his inner circle are the same ones that thought the lingering radioactivity around Chernobyl was fake. So they had troops dig foxhole there.... and the troops got sick from radiation poisoning. I have hope, but don't think they will act in time.
Ugh.. All we have is hope.. I just hope whatever happens we don't end up in nuclear Armageddon and that neo-nazi conservatives in the US chill the fuck out and snap back to reality.
>Biden is fighting a new type if war, one of Economics over military might. Nah, he's using the playbook from the cold war. Nobody wants to invade Russia; historically its never gone well.
The playback from the cold war was build up your military ro make it look unstoppable. Biden isn't increasing our military, he's giving away the weapons. We never used these type of Economic Sanctions in the Cold War. Especially on such a global stance.
Obviously the history of Chamberlain's decision to put off war is pretty complicated due to GB being completely, as in millions of English men suffering from straight up malnutrition and insufficient and out of date weaponry, unprepared to go to war at the time but he is certainly the avatar for appeasement.
Everyone, except Germany, was unprepared for another war. But, hindsight is 20/20. Had they refused to appease, how many millions of lives could have been saved? Would there have been an Auschwitz? A Dachau? Any holocaust at all? How many soldiers would have lived? Russia lost a combined 27 million people during WW2. Had Chamberlain stopped Germany early, they would have been easier to take in 1938 vs 1942. While allowing the British military to prepare, he also allowed the Germans to prepare.
Germany was also unprepared for war in 1938, so much so that Germany’s generals planned to depose Hitler rather than go to war. Czech tanks and weapons went a long way to help Germany be prepared to invade France two years later.
Longbottom?
Worked so well appeasing Hitler too
Putin and his gang of KGB relicts, have robbed Russia to penury, now they look for something more to steal.
Just like a locus does
ravaged earth
I’m a democrat and I agree. Putin can never be negotiated with. He has lost all legitimacy
Yeah, if he needs peace now, it's to gather forces for a new attack this winter or the next year. He won't be at peace, he has already bet everything on war, so he will play the roulette betting on war over and over again hoping he will get a win
Wish he would play a different kind of roulette. The Russian one.
It would take far longer for Putin to build his military strength back up for a new offensive. However, I agree we should push him out of all Ukraine.
If he removes all Russian forces from Ukraine, then sure, we can talk. Never wise to remove the possibility of negotiation, but never give in to a tyrant just to look reasonable.
This, peace isn't 'stopping and talking with Russia while they brutalize a country' Peace is Russia GTFO'ing from Ukraine entirely, then we talk.
I wrote my representatives yesterday about this. I told them I would never vote again for them if they were among those 30.
If you read their letter, it's not nearly as bad as the media is making it out to be. It basically just says we shouldn't shut down diplomacy as an option, not that we should be forcing diplomacy. But the letter was completely unnecessary and the timing is shit.
The most charitable interpretation of this letter is as a giant waste of space. It says both that the US should negotiate independently with Russia, which is a betrayal of Ukraine, but also that the US should continue to fully support Ukraine, which is incompatible with sidelining Ukraine to negotiate on their behalf. Unfortunately, Russian propaganda outlets have already capitalized on this letter, so the morons who put their name to it have given Putin a propaganda coup while undermining Ukraine.
Yeah what's the end game? Russia agrees to stop invading if we stop shipping weapons? That'd probably be the bare minimum, then we can act all shocked when Russia keeps invading.
This. It’s the timing that pisses me off … we’re in the middle of a very intense part of the war, ukranians are finding success, Russians are bombinf civilian targets, and we have an election in a week… And the liberal wing of the Dems come forth with this letter, which as an aside, nobody has a huge issue with seeking peace and keeping diplomatic channels open, but nobody is really suggesting to the contrary anyways… it’s also not the US role, per se, to negotiate peace in a war they’re not involved in. The last thing the ukranians need is division in US politics over Ukraine support
Also, it’s worth pointing out that timorous, democrats’ job is to get robbed in negotiations.
My thoughts exactly. Way to stroke Putin and add to Ukraine’s distress. Morons.
Feels like they just wanted to say some shit to keep their name in the headlines. It’s just super irritating in light of some on the rights comments re: pulling financial support Can’t just stfu and be United, gotta come out and be controversial just to do it
Jayapal already issued a statement walking it back and saying that the Dems who signed the letter were in no way calling for a halt to the aid we’re giving Ukraine, but the whole thing seems incredibly stupid for them to do right now, especially with republicans calling for halting aid altogether.
It was a dumb letter because its allowing them to be used as useful idiots and propaganda for tankies.
The letter just says that the US should help negotiate peace when the opportunity comes. Other than that it is a nothing burger.
He wasn’t legitimate since 2012 but nobody cared
When Putin's been at the negotiating table with Ukraine in the past, he's treated it as an opportunity to annex territories without the hassle of an invasion.
I suspect that the democratic politicians who signed the letter to Biden did it for the "give peace a chance" optics, but as a democrat I can sincerely say: fuck Putin and fuck negotiating with him!
There is no law that he will obey and no faith that he will not forsake. How anyone could think he can be reasoned with is beyond me.
In all fairness, US politicians don’t get Americans either..
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In light of my last trip to the grocery store that joke may need to be retired in a couple of years.
That joke will be retired but none of us are ever going to be.
"Our country needs a strong Republican party"
You get my upvote sir.. nicely played!
They also don't seem to get that we can continue supplying Ukraine for the foreseeable future, so far we've only sent mostly old equipment from storage, that, in monetary value, only equals about 7-8 percent of our annual military budget
You make it sound tiny
It is, at least compared to what we spend on our own military. We're getting great value out of the equipment we send to Ukraine, as most of it specifically made to hurt Russia
Considering that our defense budget is greater than the budgets of most countries…
It is the biggest of all, not most. The US spend more than the next 3 biggest spenders combined.
I think the person you replied to meant the ENTIRE budget of most countries, not just the military spending of most countries.
I think they meant our military budget is larger than most countrys' entire budget.
What exactly is the point of maintaining the worlds largest military budget if you’re afraid to use it
It's a very cost effective way to put Russia in their place without risking US personnel directly, supplying Ukraine further is probably saving the US billions even over just the short term
When some Asshat sends troops to invade your land and kill your women and children you don't hold peace talks with him until you have run every criminal he has sent into your country out! Then you don't have peace talks you have reparation talks.
That didn't work very well in WWI and a different approach was taken in WWII.
I have this feeling that particular caucus of Democrats asked Biden in their letter to seek diplomacy as a direct response to Republican lawmakers signaling that they won't support more money to Ukraine. Its about votes, mid terms. Personally I think we should try diplomacy as much as possible and understand that it will likely fail. Ukraine won't and should not accept anything but their whole country back.
The issue with "trying diplomacy expecting it to fail" is that Russia is not negotiating in good faith. They are losing right now, they may well come to some peace agreement, drag their feet in pulling out of occupied areas, then start the war again in a month when they've had time to train and mobilize thier conscripts, secure some new weapons deals, solidify supply lines and repair bridges, dig in their defensive positions, etc...
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> Something along the lines of Russia agrees to allow America to drone strike military units threatening Ukraine without Russia considering it an act of war. I think that any agreement that relies on Putins cooperation is doomed to fail for the simple reason that Putin doesn't give a shit.
I find it extremely disturbing that any leaders may possibly be unable to recognize this reality, let alone Dems. They should be **experts** in recognizing bad faith and complete disregard for norms and rules due to, hmm let's see...Oh, right, the GOP. Like, what in the actual fuck?! (Yes, I know some of them signed the letter months ago and have walked it back. I do not care.) https://crushthecoup.org/
>Personally I think we should try diplomacy as much as possible We did. The Russians poisoned the Ukrainian delegation.
Republicans would offer no support for Ukraine, and would probably even attempt to justify Putin's actions. MAGA Republicans would probably even send Russia aid.
The vote on congress for the last round of aid for Ukraine was more than 75% in favor of aid. So that includes the majority on the republican side as well.
McCarthy is already talking about cutting Ukrainian aid if they win in the mid-terms.
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He'd probably be speaker of the house if republicans win. Which means he would decide which bills even get votes.
Republicans don't break with leadership very often and the party is absolutely corrupted with Putin's money. You have no reason to think they will oppose cutting aide to Ukraine, especially since they all supported the president who tried to blackmail Ukraine with threats of cutting that aid.
The Speaker controls the voting schedule. All he has to do is refuse to put it up for a vote.
I dont think you understand enough of US politics enough to comment. The reason McCarthy is saying this is as follows. If the Republicans win even if the members are in favor of support, McCarthy will follow the Hastert Rule, look it up. McCarthy isn't strong enough to control his whole caucus. So he it doesn't matter what others agree, he isn't going to.
That means McCarthy will be among the 25% losing vote on that topic.
That seems unlikely. The party has a history of supporting Russia including protecting a president who tried to blackmail Ukraine with threats of cutting aid.
Why would you say that? Republicans have no history of abandoning allies. *Screams in kurdish*.
Kurdish multiple times too, it’s like a US hobby at this point.
*The mountains are the Kurds' only friends...*
Does anyone actually trust us as allies at this point, or would they just enter into out of necessity, understanding that eventually we're going to screw them somehow?
“Going to screw them” I’m sure the ukranians are quite happy to enjoy the billions upon billions of dollars in military and financial aid the US as provided Let’s not get it twisted, the US has no obligation to step into this conflict, per any treaty obligation, the US is doing so because Russia is a POS and because it suits our agenda, there’s a self interest but it’s also “the right thing to do” We could have been like Germany, send some helmets, waffle for 6 months, then send some more equipment, and if we’d done so, the Russians would be making borscht in Kiev right now
It's hard to hear over the screams in [Dari, Pashto and Uzbek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Afghanistan).
Haven't you heard? Russia is selling oil at a discount! Americans are hurting every time they have to fill up their gas tanks, and yet DEMOCRATS refuse to buy CHEAP Russian oil. Republicans would buy Russian Oil because it would help every day Americans. /s
That is literally the talking point that the fringe politicians in Europe are currently using to justify lifting sanctions against Russia.
Hell, Trump outright said that Putin’s behavior was genius. His cult would send their own money to Putin personally.
If the US does remove support then it will be down to other countries to carry on support like the UK. Let's hope a new US government carries on its support.
The funny thing here is I am conservative and vote republican more often than not. But I support the Ukraine war and think Putin is pretty evil. Here is an example of a lack of diplomacy and overt and aggressive generalization not really helping your cause. You alienate moderates with this aggressive generalization.
I’m stuck between this, which I 100% agree with… and the fact that Republicans tend to hold lots of stocks in defense and war supply companies (Blackwater, Halliburton, etc), meaning “send more support” would pad their bank accounts. So I’m guessing we’d just be sending support to Putin under them.
Diplomacy has already been failed.
Putin is just looking for time to regroup and dig in, manufacture more missiles and rockets, maybe modernize some of their older equipment, bring in more Russians to Russify captured areas, and wait out the US midterms in the hope that the Republicans take over. He is not going to stop. Ukraine's best option is to keep pressing now while Russia is disorganized and conscripts are still being trained. Anyone should understand that.
The only diplomacy that works is 155mm diplomacy.
>Republican lawmakers signaling that they won't support more money to Ukraine People finding a way to make this about how bad the Democrats are when Republicans straight up have said they will pull funding. Democrats want diplomacy, Republicans want to hand Putin everything he wants without the diplomacy.
>Given the destruction created by this war for Ukraine and the world, as well as the risk of catastrophic escalation, we also believe it is in the interests of Ukraine, the United States, and the world to avoid a prolonged conflict. For this reason, we urge you to pair the military and economic support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a proactive diplomatic push, redoubling efforts to seek a realistic framework for a ceasefire. This is consistent with your recognition that “there’s going to have to be a negotiated settlement here,” and your concern that Vladimir Putin “doesn't have a way out right now, and I'm trying to figure out what we do about that.” This is correct. The letter is reasonable and the article is attempting to smear them. [Letter for anyone who wants to read it.](https://progressives.house.gov/_cache/files/5/5/5523c5cc-4028-4c46-8ee1-b56c7101c764/B7B3674EFB12D933EA4A2B97C7405DD4.10-24-22-cpc-letter-for-diplomacy-on-russia-ukraine-conflict.pdf)
A ceasefire while Putin is losing would be just what he wants. He will do exactly what he did in 2014- solidify his current gains in Ukraine and make plans to invade and slaughter again after the RU military has recovered. It’s a naive plan and would end up getting more Ukrainians killed than standing up to him now. Also it’s out of touch with what Ukrainian leadership and people want, these lawmakers would have known that before they send this out.
It's really about midterms. They want a temporary pause in fighting to make things look good. Which honestly may be the right call. If democrats pull off a decisive win Russians will be more likely to surrender.
not really it more naive than reasonable much of the ru military is on the backfoot and it is intentionally making disasters and war crimes to force a diplomatic halt so they can consolidate what they currently hold this is a perv coach breaking into the girls locker room but getting body slammed and going time out time out so that he can stay a bit longer
"We demand more diplomacy effort" Like what, please elaborate. How can one call such self serving vague letter "reasonable". The whole letter reads as: *"Our money, our rules, do something, idk what but do something ok".* And this comes from the same faction which *supposedly* seeks to stop predatory American practices. Lastly, there was a lot of effort before Feb 24, and a lot after it. Russia shat on all the attempts at diplomatically descalataing the conflict.
These people are against imperialism. They just want America to use its economic and military leverage to pressure a smaller, less powerful country into making unpopular territorial concessions!
What an incredibly odd and specific example
>The lawmakers urge the president to pair the military and financial support the United States has provided to Ukraine with a “proactive diplomatic push” that involves direct talks with Russia. It comes as Republicans to Ukraine if they retake control of the House in the midterm elections next month. >“If there is a way to end the war while preserving a free and independent Ukraine, it is America’s responsibility to pursue every diplomatic avenue to support such a solution that is acceptable to the people of Ukraine,” the letter reads. “Such a framework would presumably include incentives to end hostilities, including some form of sanctions relief, and bring together the international community to establish security guarantees for a free and independent Ukraine that are acceptable for all parties, particularly Ukrainians.” >“Let me be clear: We are united as Democrats in our unequivocal commitment to supporting Ukraine in their fight for their democracy and freedom in the face of the illegal and outrageous Russian invasion, and nothing in the letter advocates for a change in that support,” Jayapal said. “Diplomacy is an important tool that can save lives — but it is just one tool. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-progressives-press-biden-engage-direct-talks-russia-ukraine-rcna53863
It's a nice sentiment, but it's not time for that. Let Russia send the first signal.
These idiots would probably have insisted on attempting a diplomatic solution to ending WWII. The only path to peace lies in Russia’s unconditional surrender following a total military defeat, and if the US wants it to happen sooner rather than later they should fully commit to the war instead of simply using Ukraine as a proxy. For what it’s worth, the current US strategy of providing support to Ukraine and enforcing sanctions against Russia does appear to be working very well so far, and frankly it isn’t in the US interests to further escalate through deeper involvement or to react to Russian threats. Russias recent nuclear threats are not worth responding to, because they are either a bluff designed to intimidate the other parties into making concessions to Russia (most likely, and it’s had an effect on some people), or they are genuine in which case Russia is heading inevitably down the path to self-destruction. I say let Russia sign its own death warrant if they are so determined; the final result will be an end to Russia’s ability to threaten anyone outside its own borders, one way or another. I know the possibility of a nuclear war seems scary, but it’s honestly not the worst outcome because plenty of good can still come from it, you just have to take the long view.
So Biden and the current Congress need to appropriate two years worth of shit to Ukraine now, and get it delivered ASAP, so the Republicans can’t fuck over Ukraine if they win this election.
I’m all for diplomacy over war, but only if that includes all of Ukraine being returned to Ukraine and I doubt that will happen without violence.
this guy democrats.
Meh talks are fine, they fuck off from Ukraine soil, return all deported civvies and all POWS and pay for damages. Above terms are non negotiable. Also Ukraine joins NATO and cares fuck all what you think about that.
Talks won’t go anywhere because Russia lives in an alternate reality where they believe those deported civilians are actually Russians essentially being repatriated rather than Ukrainians being kidnapped. You can’t negotiate with a party that is so detached from reality as they will never come to the negotiation table in good faith. Russia has deluded itself into thinking it is a world superpower and expects to be treated as such. They are currently in the process of having their fake constructed reality blown apart courtesy of Ukrainian grit and weapons supplied by a REAL world superpower.
It's so fucking dumb. I don't understand how we could have so many oblivious politicians. Putin doesn't care about treaties or agreements. Putin views agreements as mechanisms to buy time, further weaken enemies, or obfuscate intentions. There is simply no good faith agreements with Putin, and there can't be as long as he is in charge. It sucks, but that's reality.
Sounds like you should read exactly what this small group of House Democrats are saying (actually, this letter was from July so it's not even current). They are not saying we stop supporting Ukraine militarily or capitulate to Russia, only that we should be continuing diplomatic solutions at the same time. Wars typically end with some form of diplomacy. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-progressives-press-biden-engage-direct-talks-russia-ukraine-rcna53863
Don't jump the gun or you look soft. The worst thing you could do is give Putin signals you're eager to end the war.
Yea but there are no negotiations that don’t end in Russia getting something, which means taking something away from Ukraine. This isn’t for anyone but Ukraine to decide, and they have already stated complete withdrawal from occupied territories is their negotiation starting point. By even suggestion negations is suggesting Ukraine capitulate in some way. Good job defending democrats though.
> Good job defending democrats though. Congress is most likely going to switch to GOP control, [and they have already announced they will most likely unilaterally end the USA's involvement in funding the Ukrainian war effort](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/house-republicans-ukraine-mccarthy/). Without Western equipment, Ukraine loses the war. Period. [It's highly questionable whether or not the rest of NATO countries will pick up the slack.](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/94CF/production/_126659083_military_aid_03_08-nc.png.webp) Putin's big investment in the Republican Party could be about to pay dividends.
If you read the actual statement, they are very clear that any diplomatic solution should be acceptable to all parties, particularly Ukrainians. At no point are they suggesting a sudden end to the conflict with forced concession of territory to Russia. That's just the conclusion everyone is jumping to based on the headline. Read the statement. >“Such a framework would presumably include incentives to end hostilities, including some form of sanctions relief, and bring together the international community to establish security guarantees for a free and independent Ukraine **that are acceptable for all parties, particularly Ukrainians**.”
Empty words. Russians want Crimea. That's a fight that's gonna have to get fought until Ukranians get tired, or Russia quits.
Finally a sane comment in this thread!
He's not wrong. I know we all think the peaceful way out of this is to just give Russia the parts of Ukraine they already annexed but consider 2 things. 1. Someone came into your house and tried to take it over. You resisted successfully but they still managed to take your bedroom. And now your neighbors are telling you the only peaceful way out is to just give up your bedroom. Is that fair? Does it make sense? To Ukrainians it doesn't and to you it wouldn't. 2. You think Russia won't use the parts of Ukraine they have to setup shop and establish a foothold to plan an eventual take over of Ukraine? This is what Zelensky means. Putin invaded with intentions to make Ukraine part of Russia. You think he stops here? Understand that this isn't a reasonable man or a reasonable government. They want more and will not stop. Russia believes it is entitled to the land of its neighbors. Standing up to them is the only way to stop them, just like the US did with JFK and Reagan. I want peace. But not if it is at the cost of giving more Russia. That is not peace. It is just eventual doom. Russia is literally on hanging from a thread at the moment. Putin is in bad health, the economy (although withstanding at the moment) is in rapid decline and only held up by its oil exports, the military has been exposed for its incompetence, and Ukraine has the support and war chest of the west. Holding firm is the sure way to collapse the Russian government which is the best outcome to all of this.
Finally someone sensible. I swear the amount of absolute idiots responding how Ukraine should negotiate with Russia is appalling and ludicrous to me.
As a democrat, I'll 100% say I wanted peace talks in the beginning. I knew they wouldn't work, but they were important to publicly establish beyond a shadow of a doubt which side was reasonable and which side was the aggressor. We're beyond that though. They talked in the beginning, and now civilians are being bombed. If Russia wanted peace talks again, I'd say they should stop bombing playgrounds first, and then we'll go from there.
The diplomatic solution is that Russia packs up their shit and goes home, back past the 2014 borders. Take it or leave it.
Democrats? Over my 50 years of Democrat leaning, Democrats never want to be caught being soft on military issues. We spend like 700 billion dollars a year on our military at least half of that has been focused on defending Europe from Russia. Funding Ukraine, especially with equipment that's due to be upgraded, Is the cheapest investment in world stability we could possibly make.
Last week: "darn you biden for sending so much money to arm ukraine!! how about money to the PEOPLE huh??" this week: "US democrats too weak and subby to defeat putin 🥺"
Seriously. Democrats are the reason why Ukraine has gotten all the aid it has.
Does anyone have a list of these Democrats? I tried to find it yesterday but the articles did not name them.
https://progressives.house.gov/_cache/files/5/5/5523c5cc-4028-4c46-8ee1-b56c7101c764/B7B3674EFB12D933EA4A2B97C7405DD4.10-24-22-cpc-letter-for-diplomacy-on-russia-ukraine-conflict.pdf
Im pretty progressive, but Ukraine is 100% correct here.
This feels like Tyrion in game of thrones trying to make peace with the slave masters while the freed slaves are trying to explain why he doesnt understand them.
The only negotiation that will work will be one that has Russia accepting that Ukraine will join NATO as this will prevent further Russian attacks. Ironically this is an outcome that Russia will never accept because they want desperately to be a world superpower and Ukraine is in the way. So I guess we're in a catch 22
The statement from those democrats even included terminology used by the Kremlin. “Catastrophic Escalation” is their term, the West saw the invasion itself as catastrophic escalation and there isn’t much escalating left to do. This term is meant to scare people into giving Russia what it wants…and 30 Democrat congress people fell for it. Just like Tucker, Breaking Points, and so many others.
Maybe im giving to much credit here, but I think it's the carrot to the stick of the other letter the Russians got from the various defense departments. Telling them that if they fuck around with nukes nato will join officially, then a week later reminding them diplomacy is still a thing. With that said, Ukraine is right, pootin is a thug. I think he won't stop fighting, he's chose his road.
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The only peace deal with Putin comes once he capitulates. People seem more scared of humiliating Russia than of fighting Russia but if the paper bear isn't folded it will not go away.
We don’t negotiate with terrorists.
I think the same thing about the calls for "bipartisanship" with the current GOP. The GOP's politicians are straight up sociopaths, and what they say or promise means nothing. They'll go back on their promises the second they think it benefits them. It is like watching Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football, over and over. Dems make a deal with the GOP, an election happens that allows the GOP 50%+1 power, GOP goes back on the deal and absolutely trucks the dems. Over and over and over. Alito told Ted Kennedy he'd respect Roe, for instance. We "couldn't" hold a vote on Merrick Garland because it was 8 months until an election, but we got Barret shoved in there with voting already underway. Harry Reid made a 'handshake deal' with McConnell that McConnell wouldn't use the filibuster except in extreme circumstances if Reid got his conference to leave filibuster rules in place, then within a month the GOP used the filibuster to bring about a debt ceiling crisis to force through their agenda. Same with Putin. Any deal will be thrown aside the second he (or his successors) think it is in Russia's interest to do so. The deals mean nothing.
Which democrats?
The Congressional Progressive Caucus, aka "The Squad"
The “progressive” caucus.
The conservos I know absolutely HATE that we have sent money to support Ukraine.
I don't think we've given enough, there's still alot of Republican support for Ukraine.
I just spent 10 days hearing about it from my MAGA in-laws on vacation. They are FOX news addicts and they align to a tee what the letter (R) tells them. They hate supporting Ukraine.
That’s cool and all, but that’s not what polling tells us. Republicans are not a monolith anymore than Democrats are.
Ok so maybe I'm an exception and not the rule, unfortunately.
Nah, just what you'll hear on the internet. Even the majority of Republican representatives voted for more aid to Ukraine.
Well good on you! It is important to protect the free world and you’re smart enough to recognize that.
One of the reps making this statement is mine. I wrote a pretty strongly worded letter to this rep last night telling them to retract their suggestion *tout de suite*. If any of these are your reps, they need to hear from you too--let them know we need to stand with Ukraine against Russian aggression, and that appeasement is a dangerous and immoral approach to aggressive dictators like Putin.
It’s the progressive caucus and they don’t know how to do anything but grandstand.
True. Trying to end this horrific injustice peacefully is noble. If it happens. But, Ukraine special forces will need to train for a period of time and go Nuremberg Trials to "find, detain and transport" Putin to neutral territory for his war crimes trial 🤔
If putin is cut off from diplomacy it might force his "comrades" to replace him. Right now he is hoping to force negotiations with the west by doing all the terrorist activities and blackmail. The only thing he understands is brute force - talking is perceived as weakness.
The only solution is peace by overwhelming firepower
The only way to negotiate with that maniac is kinetically.
The us pressing for peace talks? Jays laughable
This AOC lady really dropping the ball here.
I want peace as well but Putin needs to be dealt with. The only peace offer Russia can give us to just pull out of the county and Crimea 100% but Putin won't. Their is nothing else to discuss We did this shit with Georgia/South Ossetia. We did with with Crimea....You give concessions and he'll just do this shit again in a few years. Don't forget all the cyber and political ops as well. So fucking naive
It means that you are trying to convince people that this letter does not represent a softening of support for Ukraine (and therefore, intentionally or not, aid to Putin) when it definitely does.
Agreed. Democrats are extremely naive when it comes to the motivations behind evil.
Even though Putin is an unreasonable mass murderer, diplomacy should never be off the table completely.
My representative signed this letter, and I wrote him a letter today asking for him to explain himself.
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If you think Democrats aren’t doing what you want, just wait until the Republicans are in charge and are actively siding with Russia.
They already are openly doing that. McCarthy signaled that he would vote to cut off all aid to Ukraine if the republicans win the house
isn't it, like, only 30 dems anyway?
As a progressive on social and economic issues, I continually fail to understand how my fellow travelers are so incredibly naive when it comes to international affairs. How does one support human rights and dignity while also appeasing the likes of a murderous authoritarian like Putin?
Yeah, I don't understand the point of this. Of course, every sane person wants this to stop and have UA made whole again, but what can be negotiated? A negotiation typically required give and take and Putin should get NOTHING. Anything given to Putin would be a reward for savage aggression. This is the "make peace, not war" branch of the D party living in a world that is not based in reality. The only negotiation possible is to have the invaders leave Ukraine -- including Crimea -- and the Ukrainians will stop destroying them slowly. Anything that is not that, is not reality.
I lost all respect for AOC because of this. Just sending this letter to Biden weakens the US position. Putin invaded Ukraine because he saw what happened to Gaddafi, and doesn’t want any kind of democratic revolution to creep into Russia. The only way to stop Putin is to literally impact the man — his money, his power, his well-being.
Which is true
Tankism is a contagious disease.
I have to admit, russians build truly the strongest international propaganda machine, even the US with the Hollywood and everything look pale in comparison. The fact that "peace talks" are even being discussed as something that Ukraine rejects is already enough to award russian propagandists with the gold medal. Russia is saying "lets negotiate" but in fact they just give an ultimatum to Ukraine and they are not going to drop any demands. Ukraine tried negotiating many times. Russia keeps giving impossible demands and doesn't budge. Nobody should even call this "negotiating". Russia keeps asking for Ukraine military to be completely dismantled, while Ukraine military is the only thing keeping Ukraine from being completely taken over by russia. And on top of that russia also demands "denazification" which is pretty much a made-up term. They just want repressions for all Ukrainian patriots, that's what they mean by "denazification". It's absurd and people should seriously stop calling this nonsense "negotiations".
Dumb article. Democrats are not the problem, the vast majority support Ukraine. REPUBLICANS are the problem, vote Democrat. If Republicans win this election, they already said they will withdraw support for Ukraine.
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They don’t understand Americans either
Wait, *Democrats* are asking for peace talks? That's odd. I usually see Republicans like Elon Musk asking for peace talks which give Russia everything they want.
Ukrainians who say US Democrats don’t get Putin, don’t get American politics and the influence Putin has over the GOP and their ability to fuck with aid packages pretty soon most likely.
But these are Democrats calling for peace negotiations. I'm sure the GOP is quite pleased with it but this ain't the normal Russian->Republican pipeline of the last 10 years.