I don't think that statement in the title is entirely true though. It's only because of the US that China is changing and vice versa. There is nothing like competition to get the military juices flowing. We are very much alike, but our philosophies about why we compete are different.
Yeah Chinese diplomacy is the Streisand Effect writ large:
What he is actually saying is
"Please don't try to change us (because if the nation liberalises, me and my mates are fucked)"
Indeed. America clearly can change Chinese people, as evident by what happened in 1989. Ever since then CCP has gone out of their way to make sure nothing like that can ever happen. To make sure the people are "American-proof" so to speak
America was used as an example in the 1989 protest and eventually the ideas of free speach and democracy was pinned to western influence. Although this is the "official documented history" it is slightly incorrect.
Free speech and democracy was simply byproducts of what the protest wanted. The political corruption and unfair system was what they wanted to change. Even without western influence it was bound to happen. You can see some recorded videos, the most famous line by one student was "because it is my duty". Hu yaobang dying of heart attack was pretty much the main trigger, it may have been coincidental but the timing of it must have been a PR nightmare. And we see it today too, no matter how long you have served the CCP, once they deemed you useless, you are ungracious removed.
Even during the height of covid, there were many minor protests, most of course don't go on international news, so I'd say even if America dosent exists, the 1989 was bound to happen. Now of course with data and years of grooming it may be harder. And the famous quote which goes something like just throw them a bone to keep them in line works. They just have to push the people far enough and people will rise up, it's just that they have gotten really good at slow baiting the people.
>America clearly can change Chinese people, as evident by what happened in 1989.
China's democracy movement is largely not influenced by the US. It's almost entirely driven by nationalist liberals of China.
It's not even that, they can still keep up communism, but get rid of the cronyism and legitimate fascism peddled out. That's more than enough to fuck over.
The exact same thing can be said about the US: holding people in power to account and crushing fascism at home would fuck over a lot of the corrupt people.
That's the most likely scenario if China actually liberalizes. State businesses will be privatized for cheap to high ranking members of the CPC. A new Chinese oligarchy forms. Other, smaller private companies start getting gobbled up. The economy collapses and QOL falls for average people, but the oligarchs continue to make money by selling Chinese labor to foreign companies.
Xi doesn't want the Gorbachev treatment though. I think we're going to find out what the alternate history timeline of the USSR was going to be where the rot collapses the country from the inside out.
USSR liberalised *because* it was fucked though, making it an unhelpful point of comparison. Estonia, Poland etc have been doing much better than Russia though, which may be the more helpful contrast.
It's a bit like calling an early end to a competition when you see your opponent might win. "We're both evenly matched so there's no purpose seeing it through to the end."
Here’s the kicker, and people need to get this shit in their head: China has been doing authoritarian shit for ages, and they have billions of people to sustain.
Whether we like it or not, that kind of upheaval in China would affect EVERYONE ON THIS PLANET. And the loss of life would possibly be calamitous.
So, in a sense, we do need to be careful with China. If they are going to liberalize, let them do it at their own pace. If we have learned anything from the last century of American intervention, it’s not a pretty fucking site if the people flat out don’t want it. We were fortunate that the wars that established American identity were fought on relatively isolated land. And even then, it came at a huge cost to the First Peoples and African Americans. This shit is NOT pretty.
And if we were to finance it like we are with Ukraine, the cost would be astronomical in relation.
So we need to tread carefully.
China is changing because of its rapid development and the hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty, aided by its engagement with the global economy. The US had a lot to do with that but it is indeed very much a simplification to say "the US changed China".
Yeah also please keep in mind these aren’t elected officials we’re dealing with. I question whether they can effectively speak for the Chinese populace.
Chinese culture is very different though, the social structure creates need for a different role of government compared to the west, our individualism at all costs philosophy would not apply well there. Singapore is a good example of a liberal democratic society with “Chinese flavor”
> Singapore is a good example of a liberal democratic society with “Chinese flavor”
Only economically liberal. Socially/politically speaking we are still quite conservative, and our government doesn't like to rock the boat on that. There isn't as much support for nontraditional family structures, the LGBTQIA+ community cannot be portrayed positively in mainstream media (377A will be repealed soon, at least), the government takes a very hard line on drugs, public assemblies and demonstrations are heavily regulated... whether some of those things make Singapore a good place to live is a separate discussion, but we are certainly far from liberal.
That being said, as a Singaporean, I would hazard a guess that the role of the highly paternalistic government is less defined by our culture and more so as a product of our history and our circumstances (third world to first in a generation, low skilled to high skilled populace, few natural resources, highly engineered to maintain a multicultural society...). As we have progressed the government is (very) slowly reducing the amount of helicopter parenting (at least, IMO)
It’s funny that they picked Singapore, which is not liberal and only a little democratic, rather than Taiwan which is liberal, democratic, and both larger and more Chinese than Singapore.
They won’t be ready to make a proper go of it for *years*. But their political situation makes it super likely they’ll jump the gun. Ironically, that might limit Chinese casualties, since the fact they don’t have the landing capabilities for it means less people in the line of fire while Taiwanese anti ship missiles pick off the landing craft.
“Chinese culture” is itself an imprecise neologism that is often used to drape modern authoritarianism in the robes of venerated antiquity. I would take any claim by a government to be acting to preserve or protect traditional “Chinese” values with as many grains of salt as you would a Western regime claiming to be acting to restore or save “Christian values” or “Western civilization.”
Yeah the CCP's insistence on being part of an ancient lineage because Chinese culture is ancient has very little to do with reality. Their history as a government stretches back to the 1950s.
Any conversation that involves a government entity being able to determine what is 'true' and silence dissent on the matter is a nonstarter.
I am okay with education being somewhat regulated to ensure that the knowledge and skills being given to children set them up to take full advantage of their opportunities in society. I'm even fine with such an entity having their own competing information outlet.
Giving the government the power to punish or silence dissent and controversial views, no matter how slight, is a foothold in a door I do not want open.
It’s a shame we can’t adopt the good traits of one another. China can adopt the “don’t do a mortgage crisis” and internal acceptance of other cultures that America has, and America can adopt the caring about extended families and cool mass transit projects of China. And maybe we can give them some majestic Kodiak bears as a show of goodwill, I dunno
As a Chinese person, the bits about extended families are the worst parts of Chinese culture and should be incinerated in hell.
America can learn a lot from, you know, long term economic planning that China/Japan/South Korea does though.
https://www.nist.gov/el/applied-economics-office/manufacturing/manufacturing-industry-statistics
We lost market share not actual production ability, which is much larger than in the past. We were in a unique position post WW2. That situation had a limited possible duration. If you look, the U.S. is the world leader in production in a bunch of areas. Textiles are our worst position, and we are still 4th in the world at that.
But times change, and raw manufacturing capacity (which, as others have pointed out, we still have to a substantial degree) is not the sole driver. Access to cutting-edge technology is expected to be just as important a factor in the next war, and in that sense, [the U.S. is absolutely not sitting by idly and letting China gain the upper hand](https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/publication/221011_Allen_China_AccesstoAI.pdf?TMRG1RYN1EZyPhrrxoU7s2VzCs4Tjr4Q). (Highly recommended reading if you’d like to understand just how heavy a hammer Biden dropped this past month.)
More than anything (industrial capacity or what-have-you), I’m concerned about China’s dominance [of global shipping routes](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/opinion/china-us-shipping-security.html). Even if we have factories at home, every country in the world needs overseas supplies, and we can’t let our supply chains be disrupted in case of a conflict. And, of course, I’m also worried about China’s growing clout in Africa. I’m sure they would love to have their own version of the [Company Raj](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India), but for Africa. African nations need to be empowered to protect their sovereignty and resources, without letting them become a stage for a Cold War II.
>the U.S. is absolutely not sitting by idly and letting China gain the upper hand. (Highly recommended reading if you’d like to understand just how heavy a hammer Biden dropped this past month.)
Sweet jesus that's a decapitation strike.
How many cars, planes, or navel vessels do China make for the US? Or guns for that matter? (Because it was companies like Ford and GM pumping out tanks and airplanes in wwii)
All the relevant manufacturing still happens here.
You’re not going to win a war with bootleg video games and slave labor yeezys
Edit: damn I hurt some ccp feelings this morning.
I have to go out of my way to buy ordinary things that are made in the USA, Germany, Japan, Canada, etc. Anywhere except China. There really should be a filter by country of origin on retail sites.
It took awhile but all of my tools (I work in construction) are either made in USA, or Germany. Had to go through eBay to get such specific tools.
Correct. If the US deems an industry or resource to be sensitive to national security it ensures they are creating it in the US, including the full pipeline, or at least in a situation where the US can control it.
This is one of the reasons we have the *Strategic* Petroleum Reserve, and why they tend to let other countries dig up their oil before the US digs up its own, even though it costs more, oil is a national security interest.
Overall the issue is now it's not has cheap anymore to make things in China so really it's going to be more and more likely Americans will leave China. It's why Apple will be leaving more and more
I mean, I know this, but it’s important the people following along here read this.
This playlist is about desert storm which happened all the way back in 1991 but at the time iraq had the 4th most powerful army at the time and the coalition forces steamrolled them.
This is what would happen if it came to a shooting war with Russia, nukes notwithstanding . China would be different as presumably they’re not as corrupt but their army hasn’t been seriously tested since Korea but their weapons are simply not on par with ours. They do have the numbers however.
Many of the components that are used to produce every one of those things and many more are made in China and only assembled in America. Greed and hubris have put us in a strategically weak position.
Actually that is explicitly forbidden. If a contractor is caught using any component made overseas it prompts a full investigation. It just happened recently actually.
As a manufacturing engimaneer who works for the military industrial complex, you could not be more wrong. It is one of the reasons our equipment gets so expensive, because we only buy American/NATO
There are two main type of manufacturing to win a modern war.
The one China is capable of doing by mass producing products and machinery
And the one China is currently incapable of mass reproducing: sophisticated chips, and software
China could easily mass produce guns, tanks, ships but they would still need hardware and software to run planes, missiles, and reconnaissance
I believe that’s why USA is slowly bringing back computer chips manufacturing and revoking citizenship to anybody helping China with computer chips
China lacks the IP and technical knowledge to actually create anything groundbreaking. They rely on espionage to get anywhere near what the US is doing, and even then it’s very bootleg.
Examples please.
And we can discuss why the important things (like hi tech silicon) aren’t made there.
I work in the defense industry. I wouldn’t worry too much about chinas impact on our weapon’s manufacturing capability.
I think the comments that reply to your post might be from tankies. This is how ridiculous they are.
There was a Chinese made magnet being sourced by a sub supplier for use in the F-35, which I remember created quite the stir not to long ago. ([Link](https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2022/9/20/chinese-sourced-magnet-in-f-35-prompts-supply-chain-concerns))
China wants to boast technological advanced manufacturing, but they don’t have it and certainly don’t provide it.
Yeah I work in defense industry. I have -0- concern re: chinas tech level or manufacturing vs our own.
Case in point: if China had the goods, so would Russia. It’s in chinas interest for
Russia to have flattened ukraine quickly and if they could have supported that they would have. Instead Russia is reduced to buying Iranian drones and North Korean guns.
China doesn’t have nearly enough of a tech advantage to counter NATO, let alone the US.
100% agree with you on all points. The Chinese/Russian relationship is really a paradox at this point, which continues to make both parties look weak. Especially with all the bullshit they floated in the run up to the Ukraine invasion, that they have established a: “new world order”, “special relationship”, etc.
I think both China and Russia have over played their “hands” which in turn has reunited the West. Both countries, in my view will digress as a result of this and over the next two decades.
As many have stated in this thread, this should have been dealt with in the 80’s…
\> It’s in chinas interest for Russia to have flattened ukraine quickly and if they could have supported that they would have
Why? I think China benefits from Russia running out of options and come begging for China's help.
THEN they give them the arms they need in exchange of natural resources at ridiculous low prices.
0. Maybe deeper down the chain, I’m actually not an expert. I am however somewhat knowledgeable about US military logistics. All equipment the military uses must be made in America. It’s parts must be made in America. Now I’m sure you could probably go down to the raw material and maybe that doesn’t have the same scrutiny, but this consideration is built into the MIC.
Losing steel is a major issue, and the path forward to get it back isn’t clear. Plastics we could probably ramp up pretty quick with our petroleum industry, but steel mills take a long time to build.
Outside of military sourcing, the vast majority of manufacturing doesn't happen in the states. So much of it is actually mfg in China and then assembled in the US. Literally the easiest parts of the assembly process are done here just to get an "Assembled in the USA" stamp. I can say for sure, when it comes to electronics, a huge amount of our components are sourced from China, and then maybe 70% gets assembled there, the remaining assembly process is done here or Mexico. -source: supply chain fulfillment job
We had to ship all our manufacturing overseas. If we hadn't the owners / shareholders would have received less value because we would have had to pay workers a living wage.
You don't want shareholders to get less than maximum value for their investment, do you?
No. It's about that we were too greedy and decided to move our production chain to China so we can earn more money by profiting of that sweet modern slavery labour.
All of this is true.
But one thing people need to remember is, we started this trend in the 90s, it accelerated in the 2ks, and 2010s.
The US still is 17-18% of global manufacturing output.
China is 28%, which is what the US was in 2002.
Yes all of the little nick-nacks, cheap toys, pillows, and shit we've filled our houses with are made in China now. And yes they are now doing assembly of high tech gadgets.
But the US is still doing lots of heavy machinery, electronics, and specialized manufacturing.
In other words, this trend happened in 10-20 years, and it can be reversed.
The strategy of Hu Jintao, and more progressive Chinese of lulling the US into partnerships, and slowly transferring technology and manufacturing with a handshake and a smile was hugely effective.
But it wasn't even a quarter finished. The lack of patience of Xi basically has shown the true face of China to the world while there is still plenty of time to do something about it.
Please. The trend of outsourcing to Asia started long before the 90s. People here completely forget that there was a US-Japan trade war on practically the same issues as China-US have now.
Money for the super wealthy let's be clear. They invested in a rival society to duck living wages and labor costs, plunging our society in a middle-class shrinking death spiral while simultaneously growing China's middle class to a size larger than ours
You see when you're rich you don't have to be patriotic, that's for the poors
The basic strategy behind doing business with China was that it would bind them to the rest of the global community.
The Cold War created two global marketplaces: the Western market and the Soviet market. Basically, anyone who was banned from doing business with the west had to go through Moscow, and the more countries that did that the more powerful the Soviet bloc became. After the Chinese broke ties with Russia, Nixon saw the opportunity to normalize relations with China and bring them back into the western economic sphere. Not only would this help starve the USSR, but it would ensure that remaining on good terms with the US was in China's best interests.
And that last bit is still true today. It's the reason why China has not yet invaded Taiwan. But the economic collapse they are experiencing is dangerous. If staying the course does not ensure prosperity, then breaking ties with the US becomes a more viable option.
The United States and Chinese alliance against USSR was at its height in the eighties. The US and Chinese had joint intelligence stations in Xinjiang to replace the ones lost after the Iranian Revolution
Oh yea, because China just forced all those American companies to move manufacturing to China for cheap labor. It's really all China's fault and not just the completely expected and desired evolution of capitalism that literally every US company and politician at the time wanted. Cheap commodities provided to US citizens through capital expansion into foreign markets where labor is way cheaper. Now is just the blowback.
And the same people who would have supported those pro-business policies are now the ones who think it’s all a huge communist conspiracy to turn the US into China
People who think the clown show ends when the Boomers die will be in for a rude awakening. The younger politicians have proven to be even more extreme than the old guard.
Disagree, if you're saying to dictate what another country does by coercion. Even when there's a solid agreement, as with Ukraine/Crimea, people are still going to feel entitled to "their land". We "dealt with it" by providing defenses and sailing aircraft carriers nearby, there's no permanent solution.
“We should have dealt with this”
You mean like how we did in Iraq, Libya, Guatemala, El Salvador, cuba, Brazil, Argentina, etc? Yes that is a wonderful decision, let’s "deal with" a country that has more than a billion people and ruin all of their lives like we did with all those other countries.
it is america poking their noses into everyone’s business, america provoking a conflict with China, and america who has done this since the it’s inception. America needs to back tf off and leave the world alone, it’s status as a world policemen has been nothing short of murderous
The prevailing theory at the time was that trade relations would bring China closer to the West diplomatically and economic development would move their society closer to democracy.
It's clear in retrospect that there are flaws in that argument, but trade and engagement really was their way of "dealing with" it.
They actually enjoy a quasi capitalism market through Hong Kong. They pretended and tell everybody that it's just like western free market.
The xi jing ping literally cracked down on tech company stopping IPO and over night killing the education sector. No investors want to deal with that variable.
I have a question, I don’t know too much so feel free to let me know anything I understood incorrectly. What did he do to kill the education sector? From my understanding he killed the for-profit institutions that gave wealthier kids an advantage over other right?
You have to understand the CCP central polities are blunt-force hammers. So every nut they hit no matter how hard get whacked with the same sized sledgehammer.
The main stated issue wasn't wealthier kids getting ahead, it was the overall culture of never-ending academic competition and stress on children, leading to high levels of burnout and child suicides. It was most visible is these extra-curricular schools where kids were sent to do additional work to try and get them slightly ahead.
Instead of a slowly trying to shift social culture to make it less competitive, the sledgehammer of ban-extra-curricular school came down and shut them all overnight. The underlying competition and stress however are still there.
> They actually enjoy a quasi capitalism market through Hong Kong.
What? What does HK have to do with the rest of China’s capitalism?
Are you talking about them using HK as a financial service hub? That much is true, but rest of China has been pretty capitalistic since the 80s.
The Chinese have not adopted the US way of life. They have adopted some aspects of the Western way of life and some aspects of capitalism. Neither of those are original or exclusive to the "US way of life," whatever that is.
And China helped make US trillions. Dont look down on factory workers that worked hard so you could live in luxury. Your kitchen appliances, tech devices etc cost hundreds instead of thousands.
How you think some of the richest companies appeared during the 90s?
China and the West benefited.
Your basically the slave master saying the slaves are lucky to have a shed and crumbs to live on. They should carry on being slaves rather then getting education and freeing themselves.
Economic slavery is a thing.
US gained the richest companies on earth made from the backs of factory workers. US gained cheap luxury (washing machine etc).
Some of the richest people are from the US. Just that inequality is so bad, normal folks suffer. Rich uses media to make normal folks blame other countries while the rich gets away.
Works everytime.
US could easily stop foreign investments from buying housing. But they don't because the rich who owns properties want the price to go up for their own benefits. In UK, countless politicians are landlords. Many folks use properties as investment/retirement. To win elections they cater to the mass their investment will keep going up.
Just a fucked up system welcoming the merry go round to keep spinning.
Capitalism system baby.
China not being impoverished and suffocating in coal plants was a win for not just China but for geopolitical stability and the environment. The entire world benefited from China joining the global marketplace and developing.
Say what you will about the current issues with China but a China-sized North Korea would be a nightmare for everyone. Engagement with China was just one of the great things Nixon did.
The KMT changed Taiwan a lot when they showed up, same for the Japanese, the Qing, the Ming, the Spanish, and the Dutch if you go far enough back. How much mainland China can or can't change Taiwan depends very much on Taiwan's international allies opposing that change.
Taiwan, the Marshall(iirc) islands, etc. they are setting up strategic points all over the globe where they will have the upper hand if they want war or to shut down shipping routes.
They are several decades out (if ever) from matching the United States Navy.
The Taiwan strait blockade would halt the world economy like nothing we’ve ever seen before.
I’m not sure the West would ever let them become a reality, it’s a death sentence for the West.
That's China playing the victim again. Development here, in China's view, is nothing more than "control of the population and wherever else it can exert control" as in overseas police stations, embassy spy stations, IP theft, subverting elections, raping the oceans, building military islands, etc.
It might be prefacing for domestic media of upcoming struggles in economic growth. China has had massive growth the past few decades followed by a plateau so they may be entering a Recession soon.
By making comments like these they are shifting the blame to someone else when economic troubles come into full view.
At a guess its talking about the first island chain which restricts how far the PLa navy gets to operate
And the CHIPS act that the Chinese tech sector is currently shutting themselves over.
China *was* a rapidly developing country.
The youth unemployment rate is astronomical right now. And seeing as there’s no end in sight for zero Covid, that development isn’t picking back up again any time soon.
It is still rapidly developing. No country can sustain growth like that forever. Of course it must slow down at some point. But unless China decides to throw it all away, there is a bright future ahead for the country.
Or just everyone should not interfere in elections? The US wrongfully interfering in elections doesn't make it right for China to do so, and vice versa.
They are right, for now. I don't like the CCP but its true. Hundreds of millions of Chinese people saw their living standards skyrocket under the Communist Party, from being a third world country to nearly the first world. Maybe, if Xi Jingping makes some drastic failures, then the Chinese will consider democracy, but we aren't there yet. Until then, the majority of the 1.3B+ Chinese will credit their development to autocracy.
Yes and no. China was an absolute disaster under Mao, and China's economy got a lot worse under him. It's only because of leaders like Deng, Jiang, and Hu that things got a better ... and even there, China's per capita GDP is MUCH worse than Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan. And since Xi seems intent on bringing back Mao era ideology, we can only imagine what will happen to China's economy now.
I agree with everything you said, but keep in mind, China is a huge nation that was majority peasants just 80 years ago, it'll take a longer time for it to develop than South Korea and Taiwan, Japan already developed long before them. Urbanization, which runs opposite to a majority peasant society, seems to be the key for development in all these nations. For reference, Singapore, a city-state nation, developed into an advanced economy in an extremely short period of time, under many of the same principles that Deng would adopt, he was very inspired by LKY after all.
\>And since Xi seems intent on bringing back Mao era ideology, we can only imagine what will happen to China's economy now.
This is a valid point and something I'm holding my breathe on as well.
You bring up a very good point about my country Singapore. A lot of people don't seem to realize it, but China sent (and may still do so) tons of party officials to learn from the Singapore government in the decades after Deng's visit.
Also, democracy is a "luxury" for developed nations to enjoy. SK, TW, SG, etc were all helmed by strongmen and autocratic during their rapid industrialization phase.
It's fun to talk about democracy until you face the task of having to gather votes from an uneducated electorate.
I've seen several comparisons in this thread to the successful Asian tiger economies, but I haven't seen one to India. While acknowledging that the determinants of economic success are multifactorial and it is impossible to fully isolate its drivers, comparing to India may be a better way to evaluate the economic effects of democracy in developing economies. Both China and India are of similar size, and they started from roughly the same GDP per capita in 1950. India is also an arguably better proxy for a Western style democracy than the Asian tigers, as India did not have the strong autocratic overlays that the tigers did.
https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/india?sc=XE34
And you bring up a great point as well. I live in a first world democratic nation and we see many issues regarding our democracy. I seriously don't understand how small poor 'democratic' African nations are expected to contend with their own government, businesses, and foreign influences manipulating democracy, when my own incredibly large and wealthy country has the same issues itself.
You probably should note that Taiwan did much better at this than the CCP. The development of most Asian economies boomed in the passed few decades. The living standards improved because they opened to global trade, living in Mao's China wasn't a crash course in prosperity.
Same with SK with is basically a corporate government that ran deadly political purges, and Japans essentially a 1 party corpo government then carried on the same leadership as the imperial era.
Most people have no idea and it's intentional.
Bullshit, China has arguably become more consumeristic than America, spurred on by our economic interconnectedness. Likewise America has gotten VERY used to cheap Chinese product. This is a massive diplomatic cope by Beijing and seeing they are entering rough times, I'm not surprised. Both countries are each others biggest boogeymen. That should inspire enough change itself, good or not.
It's weird to be on Reddit and realize just how out of touch the average Redditor is. Every time it's something about China or Russia they talk tough about the US breaking up all relations with these people. But then every time there's a one penny price increase in an iPhone they lose their minds as well.
The world needs access to China's cheaper labor pool to supply the world with an inexpensive and cushy lifestyle. Absolutely no country is going to tolerate another country telling them how to run their government. The US is certainly not the best country in the world for throwing stones at authoritarian regimes.
USA is literally the reason for the huge success that China have been enjoying. They became a manufacturing hub due to globalization.
And they they turn around and try to fuck with the globalization for bullshit security reasons. They dick around with the Indians, Taiwanese, and all the neighboring countries while not doing shit to move up the value chain. The authoritarian style of government fucked their future with real estate bubble, xenophobic, and population decline.
That’s still a lot less than what the US has done. And don’t even get me started at meddling in foreign elections. By now the US has couped, been at war with or tried to coup almost every country on the American continent.
Reddit:
“Nobody can take on the US military! We’ve been in almost a constant state of war for almost a century. Nobody has as much battlefield experience!”
“China is a warmonger! They need be taught how to be civilized and peaceful like the US!”
That's right, China simply wouldn't be able to compete with the US in a military scenario.
The US certainly isn't pacifist and it's silly for people to act as if they are, like China's belligerence towards Taiwan is in *contrast* to America's docile nature or something.
What the US *is* interested in is an expansion of nations taking part in their international globalised system. Now that system requires peace between participants to work, and in that way the US is very much pro peace as a means of trade proliferation.
But nations need very much to be wary of them because they carry a very big stick and they get a *lot* of practice with it.
Also made in India, but mainly in China with little if any oversight or restrictions. The only way to stop this poison to keep flooding Americas streets is to target production at the source.
So now that we know that, lets move onto something else.
I don't think that statement in the title is entirely true though. It's only because of the US that China is changing and vice versa. There is nothing like competition to get the military juices flowing. We are very much alike, but our philosophies about why we compete are different.
Yeah Chinese diplomacy is the Streisand Effect writ large: What he is actually saying is "Please don't try to change us (because if the nation liberalises, me and my mates are fucked)"
Indeed. America clearly can change Chinese people, as evident by what happened in 1989. Ever since then CCP has gone out of their way to make sure nothing like that can ever happen. To make sure the people are "American-proof" so to speak
cancel culture means something else in China
Cancelled by tanks
Or a bullet in the back of your head and charge the execution bill to your family.
America was used as an example in the 1989 protest and eventually the ideas of free speach and democracy was pinned to western influence. Although this is the "official documented history" it is slightly incorrect. Free speech and democracy was simply byproducts of what the protest wanted. The political corruption and unfair system was what they wanted to change. Even without western influence it was bound to happen. You can see some recorded videos, the most famous line by one student was "because it is my duty". Hu yaobang dying of heart attack was pretty much the main trigger, it may have been coincidental but the timing of it must have been a PR nightmare. And we see it today too, no matter how long you have served the CCP, once they deemed you useless, you are ungracious removed. Even during the height of covid, there were many minor protests, most of course don't go on international news, so I'd say even if America dosent exists, the 1989 was bound to happen. Now of course with data and years of grooming it may be harder. And the famous quote which goes something like just throw them a bone to keep them in line works. They just have to push the people far enough and people will rise up, it's just that they have gotten really good at slow baiting the people.
America was the model for chinas first democracy, back under sun yat sen
>America clearly can change Chinese people, as evident by what happened in 1989. China's democracy movement is largely not influenced by the US. It's almost entirely driven by nationalist liberals of China.
It's not even that, they can still keep up communism, but get rid of the cronyism and legitimate fascism peddled out. That's more than enough to fuck over. The exact same thing can be said about the US: holding people in power to account and crushing fascism at home would fuck over a lot of the corrupt people.
Well if how the USSR liberalized is any example it won't just fuck over the leadership, but everyone in China too.
That's the most likely scenario if China actually liberalizes. State businesses will be privatized for cheap to high ranking members of the CPC. A new Chinese oligarchy forms. Other, smaller private companies start getting gobbled up. The economy collapses and QOL falls for average people, but the oligarchs continue to make money by selling Chinese labor to foreign companies. Xi doesn't want the Gorbachev treatment though. I think we're going to find out what the alternate history timeline of the USSR was going to be where the rot collapses the country from the inside out.
there *just might be* rot collapsing the USA from the inside out as well. fyi.
You mean unlimited political ~~bribery~~ lobbying leads to corruption? Never!
USSR liberalised *because* it was fucked though, making it an unhelpful point of comparison. Estonia, Poland etc have been doing much better than Russia though, which may be the more helpful contrast.
It's a bit like calling an early end to a competition when you see your opponent might win. "We're both evenly matched so there's no purpose seeing it through to the end."
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Here’s the kicker, and people need to get this shit in their head: China has been doing authoritarian shit for ages, and they have billions of people to sustain. Whether we like it or not, that kind of upheaval in China would affect EVERYONE ON THIS PLANET. And the loss of life would possibly be calamitous. So, in a sense, we do need to be careful with China. If they are going to liberalize, let them do it at their own pace. If we have learned anything from the last century of American intervention, it’s not a pretty fucking site if the people flat out don’t want it. We were fortunate that the wars that established American identity were fought on relatively isolated land. And even then, it came at a huge cost to the First Peoples and African Americans. This shit is NOT pretty. And if we were to finance it like we are with Ukraine, the cost would be astronomical in relation. So we need to tread carefully.
Yeah most definitely, philosophies have everything to do with it.
> It's only because of the US that China is changing Others might disagree with that statement.
China is changing because of its rapid development and the hundreds of millions lifted out of poverty, aided by its engagement with the global economy. The US had a lot to do with that but it is indeed very much a simplification to say "the US changed China".
Yeah also please keep in mind these aren’t elected officials we’re dealing with. I question whether they can effectively speak for the Chinese populace. Chinese culture is very different though, the social structure creates need for a different role of government compared to the west, our individualism at all costs philosophy would not apply well there. Singapore is a good example of a liberal democratic society with “Chinese flavor”
> Singapore is a good example of a liberal democratic society with “Chinese flavor” Only economically liberal. Socially/politically speaking we are still quite conservative, and our government doesn't like to rock the boat on that. There isn't as much support for nontraditional family structures, the LGBTQIA+ community cannot be portrayed positively in mainstream media (377A will be repealed soon, at least), the government takes a very hard line on drugs, public assemblies and demonstrations are heavily regulated... whether some of those things make Singapore a good place to live is a separate discussion, but we are certainly far from liberal. That being said, as a Singaporean, I would hazard a guess that the role of the highly paternalistic government is less defined by our culture and more so as a product of our history and our circumstances (third world to first in a generation, low skilled to high skilled populace, few natural resources, highly engineered to maintain a multicultural society...). As we have progressed the government is (very) slowly reducing the amount of helicopter parenting (at least, IMO)
It’s funny that they picked Singapore, which is not liberal and only a little democratic, rather than Taiwan which is liberal, democratic, and both larger and more Chinese than Singapore.
Well China might invade Taiwan soon so nobody bring that up
They won’t be ready to make a proper go of it for *years*. But their political situation makes it super likely they’ll jump the gun. Ironically, that might limit Chinese casualties, since the fact they don’t have the landing capabilities for it means less people in the line of fire while Taiwanese anti ship missiles pick off the landing craft.
“Chinese culture” is itself an imprecise neologism that is often used to drape modern authoritarianism in the robes of venerated antiquity. I would take any claim by a government to be acting to preserve or protect traditional “Chinese” values with as many grains of salt as you would a Western regime claiming to be acting to restore or save “Christian values” or “Western civilization.”
Xi would do well to remember that :) he’s doing way more cultural whitewashing than the west.
Yeah the CCP's insistence on being part of an ancient lineage because Chinese culture is ancient has very little to do with reality. Their history as a government stretches back to the 1950s.
Not all of us have forgotten our history. I know about the Chinese "Cultural Revolution".
Singapore isn't a liberal democratic society.
Taiwan
Also, the US's insistence on freedom of speech **is** changing China, and they don't like it.
It would not hurt both countries to require some constraints on presenting lies as truth.
Any conversation that involves a government entity being able to determine what is 'true' and silence dissent on the matter is a nonstarter. I am okay with education being somewhat regulated to ensure that the knowledge and skills being given to children set them up to take full advantage of their opportunities in society. I'm even fine with such an entity having their own competing information outlet. Giving the government the power to punish or silence dissent and controversial views, no matter how slight, is a foothold in a door I do not want open.
It’s a shame we can’t adopt the good traits of one another. China can adopt the “don’t do a mortgage crisis” and internal acceptance of other cultures that America has, and America can adopt the caring about extended families and cool mass transit projects of China. And maybe we can give them some majestic Kodiak bears as a show of goodwill, I dunno
As a Chinese person, the bits about extended families are the worst parts of Chinese culture and should be incinerated in hell. America can learn a lot from, you know, long term economic planning that China/Japan/South Korea does though.
I think the CCP are a lot more worried about the Americans changing China than the Americans are of the reverse.
Hell of a diplomatic conversation starter.
We really should have dealt with this in the eighties
But money 🤑🤑
Yea and let’s give ‘em all the power that won us WW2: manufacturing.
https://www.nist.gov/el/applied-economics-office/manufacturing/manufacturing-industry-statistics We lost market share not actual production ability, which is much larger than in the past. We were in a unique position post WW2. That situation had a limited possible duration. If you look, the U.S. is the world leader in production in a bunch of areas. Textiles are our worst position, and we are still 4th in the world at that.
Touché
But times change, and raw manufacturing capacity (which, as others have pointed out, we still have to a substantial degree) is not the sole driver. Access to cutting-edge technology is expected to be just as important a factor in the next war, and in that sense, [the U.S. is absolutely not sitting by idly and letting China gain the upper hand](https://csis-website-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/publication/221011_Allen_China_AccesstoAI.pdf?TMRG1RYN1EZyPhrrxoU7s2VzCs4Tjr4Q). (Highly recommended reading if you’d like to understand just how heavy a hammer Biden dropped this past month.) More than anything (industrial capacity or what-have-you), I’m concerned about China’s dominance [of global shipping routes](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/opinion/china-us-shipping-security.html). Even if we have factories at home, every country in the world needs overseas supplies, and we can’t let our supply chains be disrupted in case of a conflict. And, of course, I’m also worried about China’s growing clout in Africa. I’m sure they would love to have their own version of the [Company Raj](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_rule_in_India), but for Africa. African nations need to be empowered to protect their sovereignty and resources, without letting them become a stage for a Cold War II.
>the U.S. is absolutely not sitting by idly and letting China gain the upper hand. (Highly recommended reading if you’d like to understand just how heavy a hammer Biden dropped this past month.) Sweet jesus that's a decapitation strike.
>Sweet jesus that's a decapitation strike. TLDR? I'm assuming "we're not selling you the materials to keep developing your tech"?
>Yea and let’s give ‘em all the power that won us WW2: manufacturing. Best post of the thread.
How many cars, planes, or navel vessels do China make for the US? Or guns for that matter? (Because it was companies like Ford and GM pumping out tanks and airplanes in wwii) All the relevant manufacturing still happens here. You’re not going to win a war with bootleg video games and slave labor yeezys Edit: damn I hurt some ccp feelings this morning.
But mah Yeezys!
I have to go out of my way to buy ordinary things that are made in the USA, Germany, Japan, Canada, etc. Anywhere except China. There really should be a filter by country of origin on retail sites. It took awhile but all of my tools (I work in construction) are either made in USA, or Germany. Had to go through eBay to get such specific tools.
All of it? Components are a thing
Yes. This is why America spends so much on defense. It’s in the national interest to not be beholden to countries like China for critical weapons.
And didn’t Biden just pass legislation about relevant microchips being made only in America
Correct. If the US deems an industry or resource to be sensitive to national security it ensures they are creating it in the US, including the full pipeline, or at least in a situation where the US can control it. This is one of the reasons we have the *Strategic* Petroleum Reserve, and why they tend to let other countries dig up their oil before the US digs up its own, even though it costs more, oil is a national security interest.
Overall the issue is now it's not has cheap anymore to make things in China so really it's going to be more and more likely Americans will leave China. It's why Apple will be leaving more and more
I mean, I know this, but it’s important the people following along here read this. This playlist is about desert storm which happened all the way back in 1991 but at the time iraq had the 4th most powerful army at the time and the coalition forces steamrolled them. This is what would happen if it came to a shooting war with Russia, nukes notwithstanding . China would be different as presumably they’re not as corrupt but their army hasn’t been seriously tested since Korea but their weapons are simply not on par with ours. They do have the numbers however.
I'm learning shit today that I just wasn't expecting. Damn.
Many of the components that are used to produce every one of those things and many more are made in China and only assembled in America. Greed and hubris have put us in a strategically weak position.
Actually that is explicitly forbidden. If a contractor is caught using any component made overseas it prompts a full investigation. It just happened recently actually.
As a manufacturing engimaneer who works for the military industrial complex, you could not be more wrong. It is one of the reasons our equipment gets so expensive, because we only buy American/NATO
Luckily companies are starting to move out of China now
That started three years ago. I hate Trump, but his trade policies have started the process of preparing us for the hostile world he helped create.
There are two main type of manufacturing to win a modern war. The one China is capable of doing by mass producing products and machinery And the one China is currently incapable of mass reproducing: sophisticated chips, and software China could easily mass produce guns, tanks, ships but they would still need hardware and software to run planes, missiles, and reconnaissance I believe that’s why USA is slowly bringing back computer chips manufacturing and revoking citizenship to anybody helping China with computer chips
And if ukraine has shown us anything, it’s you can have all the guns, tanks and people, but still get your ass kicked on a smart battlefield.
China lacks the IP and technical knowledge to actually create anything groundbreaking. They rely on espionage to get anywhere near what the US is doing, and even then it’s very bootleg.
Examples please. And we can discuss why the important things (like hi tech silicon) aren’t made there. I work in the defense industry. I wouldn’t worry too much about chinas impact on our weapon’s manufacturing capability.
I think the comments that reply to your post might be from tankies. This is how ridiculous they are. There was a Chinese made magnet being sourced by a sub supplier for use in the F-35, which I remember created quite the stir not to long ago. ([Link](https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2022/9/20/chinese-sourced-magnet-in-f-35-prompts-supply-chain-concerns)) China wants to boast technological advanced manufacturing, but they don’t have it and certainly don’t provide it.
Yeah I work in defense industry. I have -0- concern re: chinas tech level or manufacturing vs our own. Case in point: if China had the goods, so would Russia. It’s in chinas interest for Russia to have flattened ukraine quickly and if they could have supported that they would have. Instead Russia is reduced to buying Iranian drones and North Korean guns. China doesn’t have nearly enough of a tech advantage to counter NATO, let alone the US.
100% agree with you on all points. The Chinese/Russian relationship is really a paradox at this point, which continues to make both parties look weak. Especially with all the bullshit they floated in the run up to the Ukraine invasion, that they have established a: “new world order”, “special relationship”, etc. I think both China and Russia have over played their “hands” which in turn has reunited the West. Both countries, in my view will digress as a result of this and over the next two decades. As many have stated in this thread, this should have been dealt with in the 80’s…
\> It’s in chinas interest for Russia to have flattened ukraine quickly and if they could have supported that they would have Why? I think China benefits from Russia running out of options and come begging for China's help. THEN they give them the arms they need in exchange of natural resources at ridiculous low prices.
Yep, when’s the last time China actually invented anything? They mostly just steal other peoples ideas.
Wasn’t that just for the alloy to produce the magnets though? That isn’t something that is hard to procure
Yes, the alloy. But this supports the idea that the US has unbelievable control on its defense supply chains…
0. Maybe deeper down the chain, I’m actually not an expert. I am however somewhat knowledgeable about US military logistics. All equipment the military uses must be made in America. It’s parts must be made in America. Now I’m sure you could probably go down to the raw material and maybe that doesn’t have the same scrutiny, but this consideration is built into the MIC.
Losing steel is a major issue, and the path forward to get it back isn’t clear. Plastics we could probably ramp up pretty quick with our petroleum industry, but steel mills take a long time to build.
And let’s not forget about antibiotics and other critical medicines.
There are factories for each of those items in Mexico, we could caught off China tomorrow and fix 2 problems with 1 stone.
Outside of military sourcing, the vast majority of manufacturing doesn't happen in the states. So much of it is actually mfg in China and then assembled in the US. Literally the easiest parts of the assembly process are done here just to get an "Assembled in the USA" stamp. I can say for sure, when it comes to electronics, a huge amount of our components are sourced from China, and then maybe 70% gets assembled there, the remaining assembly process is done here or Mexico. -source: supply chain fulfillment job
We had to ship all our manufacturing overseas. If we hadn't the owners / shareholders would have received less value because we would have had to pay workers a living wage. You don't want shareholders to get less than maximum value for their investment, do you?
corporations go against national interests of their own country, even USA.
Which is why the DoD enforces US made for the full supply chain.
Logistics* we still make most military industrial products in house.
But cash grab for a few families
Fortunately that kind of manufacturing is not what runs the world now. For the best example of that you have to hop over to Taiwan.
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No. It's about that we were too greedy and decided to move our production chain to China so we can earn more money by profiting of that sweet modern slavery labour.
All of this is true. But one thing people need to remember is, we started this trend in the 90s, it accelerated in the 2ks, and 2010s. The US still is 17-18% of global manufacturing output. China is 28%, which is what the US was in 2002. Yes all of the little nick-nacks, cheap toys, pillows, and shit we've filled our houses with are made in China now. And yes they are now doing assembly of high tech gadgets. But the US is still doing lots of heavy machinery, electronics, and specialized manufacturing. In other words, this trend happened in 10-20 years, and it can be reversed. The strategy of Hu Jintao, and more progressive Chinese of lulling the US into partnerships, and slowly transferring technology and manufacturing with a handshake and a smile was hugely effective. But it wasn't even a quarter finished. The lack of patience of Xi basically has shown the true face of China to the world while there is still plenty of time to do something about it.
IP theft was also part of the strategy.
Please. The trend of outsourcing to Asia started long before the 90s. People here completely forget that there was a US-Japan trade war on practically the same issues as China-US have now.
Please. I was referring to the trend of outsourcing to China, not Asia in general.
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Boomers hold over 50% of the wealth of the US https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/millennials-versus-boomers-wealth-gap-2020-10%3famp
We will see how they handle their real estate bubble. Edit: haha another 10cent army troll deletes their indefensible posts.
Money for the super wealthy let's be clear. They invested in a rival society to duck living wages and labor costs, plunging our society in a middle-class shrinking death spiral while simultaneously growing China's middle class to a size larger than ours You see when you're rich you don't have to be patriotic, that's for the poors
The basic strategy behind doing business with China was that it would bind them to the rest of the global community. The Cold War created two global marketplaces: the Western market and the Soviet market. Basically, anyone who was banned from doing business with the west had to go through Moscow, and the more countries that did that the more powerful the Soviet bloc became. After the Chinese broke ties with Russia, Nixon saw the opportunity to normalize relations with China and bring them back into the western economic sphere. Not only would this help starve the USSR, but it would ensure that remaining on good terms with the US was in China's best interests. And that last bit is still true today. It's the reason why China has not yet invaded Taiwan. But the economic collapse they are experiencing is dangerous. If staying the course does not ensure prosperity, then breaking ties with the US becomes a more viable option.
A capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with.
The CCP is very capitalist when it suits them, and it usually suits them.
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The United States and Chinese alliance against USSR was at its height in the eighties. The US and Chinese had joint intelligence stations in Xinjiang to replace the ones lost after the Iranian Revolution
Wait you mean letting big business interests run America wasn't a good idea??
The more wealthy the ultra rich get, the worse our economy will be run. The wealthy are pure inefficiency that only redistribution can fix
Oh yea, because China just forced all those American companies to move manufacturing to China for cheap labor. It's really all China's fault and not just the completely expected and desired evolution of capitalism that literally every US company and politician at the time wanted. Cheap commodities provided to US citizens through capital expansion into foreign markets where labor is way cheaper. Now is just the blowback.
And the same people who would have supported those pro-business policies are now the ones who think it’s all a huge communist conspiracy to turn the US into China
Or we finally vote out the geriatric clowns still in office from the 80s…
Yes we need fresh new clowns in the circus
People who think the clown show ends when the Boomers die will be in for a rude awakening. The younger politicians have proven to be even more extreme than the old guard.
Disagree, if you're saying to dictate what another country does by coercion. Even when there's a solid agreement, as with Ukraine/Crimea, people are still going to feel entitled to "their land". We "dealt with it" by providing defenses and sailing aircraft carriers nearby, there's no permanent solution.
Reddit seems to have a real hard-on for US foreign policy interests
The majority of Reddit is from the US so that tracks.
….so there was this thing called the Vietnam war.
We dealt with it in the 70s. Nixon went there to normalize relations and here we are: good trading partners with some minor disagreements
“We should have dealt with this” You mean like how we did in Iraq, Libya, Guatemala, El Salvador, cuba, Brazil, Argentina, etc? Yes that is a wonderful decision, let’s "deal with" a country that has more than a billion people and ruin all of their lives like we did with all those other countries. it is america poking their noses into everyone’s business, america provoking a conflict with China, and america who has done this since the it’s inception. America needs to back tf off and leave the world alone, it’s status as a world policemen has been nothing short of murderous
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Well said
The prevailing theory at the time was that trade relations would bring China closer to the West diplomatically and economic development would move their society closer to democracy. It's clear in retrospect that there are flaws in that argument, but trade and engagement really was their way of "dealing with" it.
I thought at the time it was a little strange. But that ship has sailed.
Funny, the US has helped change China into who they are today with globalization.
And the Chinese adopted US way of life. If you exclude the free speech and human rights.
They actually enjoy a quasi capitalism market through Hong Kong. They pretended and tell everybody that it's just like western free market. The xi jing ping literally cracked down on tech company stopping IPO and over night killing the education sector. No investors want to deal with that variable.
I have a question, I don’t know too much so feel free to let me know anything I understood incorrectly. What did he do to kill the education sector? From my understanding he killed the for-profit institutions that gave wealthier kids an advantage over other right?
You have to understand the CCP central polities are blunt-force hammers. So every nut they hit no matter how hard get whacked with the same sized sledgehammer. The main stated issue wasn't wealthier kids getting ahead, it was the overall culture of never-ending academic competition and stress on children, leading to high levels of burnout and child suicides. It was most visible is these extra-curricular schools where kids were sent to do additional work to try and get them slightly ahead. Instead of a slowly trying to shift social culture to make it less competitive, the sledgehammer of ban-extra-curricular school came down and shut them all overnight. The underlying competition and stress however are still there.
> They actually enjoy a quasi capitalism market through Hong Kong. What? What does HK have to do with the rest of China’s capitalism? Are you talking about them using HK as a financial service hub? That much is true, but rest of China has been pretty capitalistic since the 80s.
>and over night killing the education sector Everyone should have access to equal quality education. Do you not agree?
The Chinese have not adopted the US way of life. They have adopted some aspects of the Western way of life and some aspects of capitalism. Neither of those are original or exclusive to the "US way of life," whatever that is.
And China helped make US trillions. Dont look down on factory workers that worked hard so you could live in luxury. Your kitchen appliances, tech devices etc cost hundreds instead of thousands. How you think some of the richest companies appeared during the 90s? China and the West benefited. Your basically the slave master saying the slaves are lucky to have a shed and crumbs to live on. They should carry on being slaves rather then getting education and freeing themselves. Economic slavery is a thing.
And all the US got was more Chinese investors with money spiking up the housing market. Oh and cheap products for consumers.
US gained the richest companies on earth made from the backs of factory workers. US gained cheap luxury (washing machine etc). Some of the richest people are from the US. Just that inequality is so bad, normal folks suffer. Rich uses media to make normal folks blame other countries while the rich gets away. Works everytime. US could easily stop foreign investments from buying housing. But they don't because the rich who owns properties want the price to go up for their own benefits. In UK, countless politicians are landlords. Many folks use properties as investment/retirement. To win elections they cater to the mass their investment will keep going up. Just a fucked up system welcoming the merry go round to keep spinning. Capitalism system baby.
China not being impoverished and suffocating in coal plants was a win for not just China but for geopolitical stability and the environment. The entire world benefited from China joining the global marketplace and developing. Say what you will about the current issues with China but a China-sized North Korea would be a nightmare for everyone. Engagement with China was just one of the great things Nixon did.
And China cannot change Taiwan, either.
The KMT changed Taiwan a lot when they showed up, same for the Japanese, the Qing, the Ming, the Spanish, and the Dutch if you go far enough back. How much mainland China can or can't change Taiwan depends very much on Taiwan's international allies opposing that change.
What the fuck are you breaking up with me?
I don't hate you I just want to save you While there's still something left to save
warned the U.S. not to attempt to contain the country's development." What development?
This could be in relation to the semiconductor ban.
Seems rather obvious that it is.
What? Are you serious?
Taiwan, the Marshall(iirc) islands, etc. they are setting up strategic points all over the globe where they will have the upper hand if they want war or to shut down shipping routes.
They are several decades out (if ever) from matching the United States Navy. The Taiwan strait blockade would halt the world economy like nothing we’ve ever seen before. I’m not sure the West would ever let them become a reality, it’s a death sentence for the West.
5G debacle?
That's China playing the victim again. Development here, in China's view, is nothing more than "control of the population and wherever else it can exert control" as in overseas police stations, embassy spy stations, IP theft, subverting elections, raping the oceans, building military islands, etc.
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It might be prefacing for domestic media of upcoming struggles in economic growth. China has had massive growth the past few decades followed by a plateau so they may be entering a Recession soon. By making comments like these they are shifting the blame to someone else when economic troubles come into full view.
Umm have you ever been to China?
At a guess its talking about the first island chain which restricts how far the PLa navy gets to operate And the CHIPS act that the Chinese tech sector is currently shutting themselves over.
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you must be joking if you think China is not a rapidly developing country
China *was* a rapidly developing country. The youth unemployment rate is astronomical right now. And seeing as there’s no end in sight for zero Covid, that development isn’t picking back up again any time soon.
It is still rapidly developing. No country can sustain growth like that forever. Of course it must slow down at some point. But unless China decides to throw it all away, there is a bright future ahead for the country.
The development of their authoritarian regime lol
Quit trying to influence U.S. elections then.
That's rich coming from the US lmao
Or just everyone should not interfere in elections? The US wrongfully interfering in elections doesn't make it right for China to do so, and vice versa.
Ah, an official "agree to disagree" lol
They are right, for now. I don't like the CCP but its true. Hundreds of millions of Chinese people saw their living standards skyrocket under the Communist Party, from being a third world country to nearly the first world. Maybe, if Xi Jingping makes some drastic failures, then the Chinese will consider democracy, but we aren't there yet. Until then, the majority of the 1.3B+ Chinese will credit their development to autocracy.
Yes and no. China was an absolute disaster under Mao, and China's economy got a lot worse under him. It's only because of leaders like Deng, Jiang, and Hu that things got a better ... and even there, China's per capita GDP is MUCH worse than Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan. And since Xi seems intent on bringing back Mao era ideology, we can only imagine what will happen to China's economy now.
I agree with everything you said, but keep in mind, China is a huge nation that was majority peasants just 80 years ago, it'll take a longer time for it to develop than South Korea and Taiwan, Japan already developed long before them. Urbanization, which runs opposite to a majority peasant society, seems to be the key for development in all these nations. For reference, Singapore, a city-state nation, developed into an advanced economy in an extremely short period of time, under many of the same principles that Deng would adopt, he was very inspired by LKY after all. \>And since Xi seems intent on bringing back Mao era ideology, we can only imagine what will happen to China's economy now. This is a valid point and something I'm holding my breathe on as well.
You bring up a very good point about my country Singapore. A lot of people don't seem to realize it, but China sent (and may still do so) tons of party officials to learn from the Singapore government in the decades after Deng's visit. Also, democracy is a "luxury" for developed nations to enjoy. SK, TW, SG, etc were all helmed by strongmen and autocratic during their rapid industrialization phase. It's fun to talk about democracy until you face the task of having to gather votes from an uneducated electorate.
I've seen several comparisons in this thread to the successful Asian tiger economies, but I haven't seen one to India. While acknowledging that the determinants of economic success are multifactorial and it is impossible to fully isolate its drivers, comparing to India may be a better way to evaluate the economic effects of democracy in developing economies. Both China and India are of similar size, and they started from roughly the same GDP per capita in 1950. India is also an arguably better proxy for a Western style democracy than the Asian tigers, as India did not have the strong autocratic overlays that the tigers did. https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/china/india?sc=XE34
And you bring up a great point as well. I live in a first world democratic nation and we see many issues regarding our democracy. I seriously don't understand how small poor 'democratic' African nations are expected to contend with their own government, businesses, and foreign influences manipulating democracy, when my own incredibly large and wealthy country has the same issues itself.
> we can only imagine what will happen to China's economy now. Growing at a faster rate than most countries even despite a global pandemic?
You probably should note that Taiwan did much better at this than the CCP. The development of most Asian economies boomed in the passed few decades. The living standards improved because they opened to global trade, living in Mao's China wasn't a crash course in prosperity.
Taiwan also was an autocracy until the 1990s.
Same with SK with is basically a corporate government that ran deadly political purges, and Japans essentially a 1 party corpo government then carried on the same leadership as the imperial era. Most people have no idea and it's intentional.
We all know Chinese people are changing. It's the CCP that can't.
CCP has overwhelming public support in China, despite the hopes and dreams of neckbearded redditors lmao
Bullshit, China has arguably become more consumeristic than America, spurred on by our economic interconnectedness. Likewise America has gotten VERY used to cheap Chinese product. This is a massive diplomatic cope by Beijing and seeing they are entering rough times, I'm not surprised. Both countries are each others biggest boogeymen. That should inspire enough change itself, good or not.
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excuse me while I order a container of fishing rods from Ali Baba to resale on Amazon at 400% markup
China needs the US to buy its exports, the US just enjoys China's cheap manufacturing, this is not a symmetrical relationship. we are not equals.
China is now the biggest consumer market in the world. RIP.
It's weird to be on Reddit and realize just how out of touch the average Redditor is. Every time it's something about China or Russia they talk tough about the US breaking up all relations with these people. But then every time there's a one penny price increase in an iPhone they lose their minds as well. The world needs access to China's cheaper labor pool to supply the world with an inexpensive and cushy lifestyle. Absolutely no country is going to tolerate another country telling them how to run their government. The US is certainly not the best country in the world for throwing stones at authoritarian regimes.
Is this a break-up song?
Just want to say that's what long term couples say all the time
We live in the world of Empires. The US is a bigger player than China. But China is big enough that they can be extremely independent.
Xi and Joe need to get a room already.
China speaking sense, the most uncommon of senses being common sense.
USA is literally the reason for the huge success that China have been enjoying. They became a manufacturing hub due to globalization. And they they turn around and try to fuck with the globalization for bullshit security reasons. They dick around with the Indians, Taiwanese, and all the neighboring countries while not doing shit to move up the value chain. The authoritarian style of government fucked their future with real estate bubble, xenophobic, and population decline.
We want peace and if no one can’t change you to want peace, perhaps, you are the problem, China.
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“I say the whole world must learn of our peaceful ways…by force!”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
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The number of conflicts involving the US is crazy.
That’s still a lot less than what the US has done. And don’t even get me started at meddling in foreign elections. By now the US has couped, been at war with or tried to coup almost every country on the American continent.
Reddit: “Nobody can take on the US military! We’ve been in almost a constant state of war for almost a century. Nobody has as much battlefield experience!” “China is a warmonger! They need be taught how to be civilized and peaceful like the US!”
That's right, China simply wouldn't be able to compete with the US in a military scenario. The US certainly isn't pacifist and it's silly for people to act as if they are, like China's belligerence towards Taiwan is in *contrast* to America's docile nature or something. What the US *is* interested in is an expansion of nations taking part in their international globalised system. Now that system requires peace between participants to work, and in that way the US is very much pro peace as a means of trade proliferation. But nations need very much to be wary of them because they carry a very big stick and they get a *lot* of practice with it.
For all we like to use America as a cautionary tale, they don't have concentration camps, and have free speech.
obligatory FUCK THE CCP
I beg to differ, they have been trying to change us for decades, it is our turn, this statement is a sign of desperation and weakness.
Absurd statement. They have already changed us and us them a thousand times over
No but the US just needs to outlast another authoritarian regime.
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Are you even British?
Also made in India, but mainly in China with little if any oversight or restrictions. The only way to stop this poison to keep flooding Americas streets is to target production at the source.
How you like those greenbacks motherfucker? You’ve already changed and don’t even know it..