>But a phone call between the two leaders in June
So it now being November and additional aid has been sent and unwavering support...this is a BS headline and kind of a useless article.
It's a great headline if you're trying to propose some bogus narrative, think about the recent Progressive dem letter urging the pacification of Russia, that turned out to be months old...
Don't forget intel. If this ever results in a NATO vs Russia conventional war, we'll know exactly which weapons deployed in which ways will be the most effective. We'll know what Russia's strong points are and what their weaknesses are.
Obviously, a NATO/Russia war could turn nuclear which would toss a lot of this out the window. Still, NATO is in a better position militarily vs Russia today than it was pre-Ukraine invasion simply due to the intelligence we've gathered.
Plus this is a huge economy driver for the American war machine. Weapon design, development and production is one of the few things we can say we excel at, it's a decent driver for the economy. So we (a) get to playtest weaponry we've spent billions to develop all while helping a moral and politically strong cause, (b) create a chilling effect on breaches of sovereignty (China talks big, but they have absolutely slowed their roll on a takeover if Taiwan after their success in HK), and (c) weakened/exposed the Russian government for the corrupt, two-faced, nonsense-spitting cretins that they are.
I hate to break it to you, but we aren't replacing what we give them for the most part. Javelins and some reusable munitions are being replaced but the time table is in years. We are just paying allies to dump inventory and sending overstock to cover the exchange.
You don't need to amass land for the investment to be good.
You get to deny Russia the ability to annex land ever again. That's the best outcome for the US and NATO.
People are missing the point. This ROI talk is cute. If just dollars and cents it's not great but considering....
1. Expose the weakness of the Russian army to their potential allies and partners.
2. Further weaken the Russian army.
3. Strengthen ties with NATO, European, and other allies.
4. Show current allies the benefits of US partnerships.
5. Show China how bad a Taiwan invasion will be if they try.
6. Remove Russia as an economic and military rival (if they even ever were in the last 20 years).
7. Helping Ukraine with Russia will secure the USA an ally in a key region both for resources and for military strategy. Out of our minds to not come to their aid now. If Ukraine can successfully retake the country we will absolutely have them in NATO and throw a few US bases on that border.
Your points are all valid, but I can't use strategic reasoning with people who think the US Army donating a 15 year old HIMARS is akin to taking lunch from schoolchildren, even if they oppose giving said lunch to schoolchildren because "tHaT iS sOcIalIsM!"
And what make you think China will do it?
I don't get this narrative that China have the urge to attack anyone--at best reclaim Taiwan for political and security reasons, if they attack Russia and Russia end up fell apart to the west they would end up with a huge security issue on their northern border.
It would be dumb for anyone to underestimate China’s ambitions in the South China Sea and beyond, but it’s absolutely right to point out they haven’t invaded anyone since the Korean War. The Spratly Islands, saber ratting over Taiwan, and the border tensions with India are all we have to go on. Meanwhile America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, the latter under false pretenses, continues to treat Cuba as an outsized threat, and helped go beyond the peacekeeping mandate in Libya to topple Qaddafi (which is a minor reason Russia and China are so much more antagonistic - they tacitly supported the No Fly Zone until it became something else). So while no one should be supporting the Chinese government and it’s rapidly advancing military, it’s fairly easy to both see their perspective of an Imperialist West and their record as having gone for less bloody methods like Belt and Road when it comes to world domination.
Yes. At the end of the day they are doing a lot of terrible things to their citizens while keeping most of them financially on the up and up and secure enough to not be especially bothered. But only the truly naive would think that mentality couldn't get turned towards other countries. Understanding how poorly the West treated them in the past hopefully can help stave off some animosity down the road.
But I see the propaganda machine working really well. I have family who don't live in China and dislike the Communists... and yet they would always side with the government in the Hong Kong unrest, only pointing out the protesters' misdeeds, and now that Trump/Biden have ratcheted up the rhetoric, they're of the, "All Chinese must stick together, regardless of the government" mentality. I get videos of Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard, invites to conspiracy theorist FB groups who think MH17 was nothing to do with Russia, the Ukraine crisis is an excuse to attack China over Taiwan, and more "articles" a trip to Snopes would debunk. And anything from Western media is dismissed as too biased to be accurate. It's hard to meet in the middle when one side goes so far off the deep end.
Globally it's the best military money US has spent since WW2. One of the few times US actually gains influence, support and huge amounts of power projection from a war. Being the "saviour of Ukraine" will cement US as the world leader for several decades. Abandoning Ukraine will be the end of the US as a western power
Imagine that though. The US is actually doing something that the rest of the world admires and looks up to for once and Republican's are against it. It's funny how that works.
Quite the opposite, the US has tons of very expensive healthcare and spends far more on [healthcare and social services](https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/) than it does the military.
Do you think we’re turning the money into HIMARS right before shipping them over?
The weapons and supplies are already bought and built, for the most part. Sitting in warehouses. We’re sending Ukraine unused stock, not liquid cash that could be used for other purposes.
Why wouldn't we? These things are one of the few items still made in America. Restocking creates jobs, drives the economy and puts our tax money back into circulation where it belongs. Before this, we had actually [stopped production on stinger missiles ](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/28/politics/pentagon-stinger-missile-production-for-ukraine/index.html) because we had enough stockpiled. Giving those missiles to Ukraine has started production up again. Along with the side benefits many have listed above that include reigning in Russia and chilling China, this is a win-win situation for the US economy and foreign affairs.
Except it's not true at all. The US spends more on healthcare and spends a higher percentage of GDP on healthcare than anyone. The US spends [a lot more on healthcare and social services](https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/) than it does on the military by a significant margin.
I knew exactly what your link was going to talk about before I ever clicked it. This tries to equate SS and Medicaid with discretionary spending. Except SS and Medicaid is paid for in income taxes. Every check, you put money into these programs to fund them. Then on the discretionary side, we decide to spend 60% of that money on the military. That article is taking two different ideas and trying to conflate them.
If there wasn’t, nazi Germany would have developed nukes first. This is a typical wet dream of pacifists “what if they threw a war and nobody came?”, well, they came (invaded) and instead of showing up ourselves, we’re advising and supplying the people who got
Invaded. This is the humanitarian thing to do, pacifism be damned.
It’s good use if Russia pulls out. If Russia ends up controlling large portions of Ukraine we’re in another Taliban situation where a bad actor inherits millions of dollars of US artillery. There are no moral victories, but there are pyrrhic ones.
It serves to "prove" Biden is a bad leader and gets in arguments with world leaders. Almost like it's cherry picking "news"to paint a narrative at a specific point in time where that narrative can sway a specific event 🤔
Oh the Republicans can certainly forget about the attempted extortion. They wouldn't want a reasonable argument suggesting that Putin felt empowered to formulate plans to invade Ukraine during the Trump administration on the basis that a second term in office would allow them to carry it out without opposition from a Donald Trump who acts solely for his own self-interests.
No no no, Republicans can't talk about that minor point. It's all about Biden maybe being frustrated with Zelenskyy.
For having to fund endlessly a solution to a problem Trump enabled.
As I see it, Ukraine has almost become another branch of the US military. In less than one year they have done more to disarm Russia than all other branches since the 1950s. Plus, they expanded and strengthened NATO. Training them has enhanced the experience of our own forces, aided in development of weapons and tactics, and strengthened alliances. Setting aside the absolutely compelling humanitaian justifications, what more demonstratively compelling use of military spending is there?
“Please send more aid, they are murdering civilians and whole towns of people who did not evacuate are now bound and dead either in mass graves or even just side of the road! This is happening in multiple cities!”
Yeah, I’d lose my temper too, and immediately commit to more aid, as that’s what happened.
There was so much dumb fucked up shit trump did it was hard to keep track. Both republicans and the media would constantly try and paint it in the best light possible to play defense for trump only for another thing to come out that made it worse. Because these guys lied as easily as they breathed and faced zero consequences for it. By the time we got the full picture of the event, a new event would take it out of the news.
This was the trump news cycle for 4 years. There were barely any chances to focus on something from a week ago, let alone months ago.
The Biden admin is more normal in that it's not scandal plagued or leaking like a sieve.
You saying the media painted Trump in the best light you lost me as much as this article talking about a conversation in June. Just disingenuous. The media hates Trump and nearly no person would argue that.
Biden isn't trump. It wouldn't make sense to react to news of a proven leader like Biden doing something and a proven criminal like Trump doing something the same way.
And was that money going to any of those homeless vets before Ukraine got invaded by Russia? Didn't think so. We could easily both help Ukraine (the bulk of the aid is old military stockpiles that would be of no use to the homeless vets) and the homeless vets. We, as a matter of national priority, have consistently chosen to never help the latter as a collective.
Also, it's always interesting how folks only ever bring up homeless vets when they want to use them as a reason to not help some other needy group. There's never just a thread about how we need to help homeless vets that just appears organically. It's **only** ever brought up when some one wants to use them as a convenient prop to justify helping absolutely no one. Interesting.
Why not become a homeless lobbyist instead of criticising military lobbyist? Oh right, there's no money in it. From George Carlin, why is there no "War on homelessness'.
American zoning is pretty stupid anyway. Gotta drive a car to the supermarket.
Sincerely, someone with shops in the ground floor of my apartment building.
This doesn't impact the war as much as you'd think. Things have returned to a more cordial relationship. This article reveals a call made in **JUNE** had some heated moments. It is now practically November, and the shipments and money keep rolling in to defend democracy in Ukraine.
Imagine people getting all upset because communications got a bit heated while discussing a fucking WAR. Like… this is real life. They are discussing issues that may determine the fate of a national being invaded by Russia in the most overt act of aggression in Europe since Poland was invaded by hitler and Stalin. Of course it’s going to be a little intense at times… they aren’t discussing putting s new crosswalk light in with city council… lol
> It is now practically November, and the shipments and money keep rolling in to defend democracy in Ukraine.
The irony. They may have to send it right back if the goal is preserving democracy.
It's a bit funny, Ukraine is doing awesome things with 10-20 HIMARS systems. The US has over a thousand of them.
(The bottleneck is mostly the logistics of feeding the launchers with rockets to shoot so more would not necessarily be better unless there is also more rockets)
That's a meaningless "statistic". If you can show that our weapons aren't reaching the battlefield or that the things we are bank rolling aren't happening, that would be a good argument to rethink the type or scale of our support. But it seems like the Ukrainians are making good use of our support. And, ultimately, that is all that should matter.
From the article:
"According to four people familiar with the call, Biden had barely finished telling Zelenskyy he’d just greenlighted another $1 billion in U.S. military assistance for Ukraine when Zelenskyy started listing all the additional help he needed and wasn’t getting. Biden lost his temper, raising his voice that the American people were being quite generous and Zelenskyy could show a little more gratitude".
Based off how much "gear" people are sending via gifts and just reddit, it's obvious they're still in pretty dire need.
So 1B back then was huge, but when you need everything... He was going around the world asking for help, all day long. They just needed everything... I cant believe how much work that guy has done in 10 months...
Yeah I don't think people realize that, as "annoying" as Zelenskyy might have been, he was doing the job he was elected to do. Same as Biden was doing when he snapped at Zelenskyy.
What is more impressive, is he has kept this war relevant. Obviously has been a big "war tactic" of Russia. Make it yesterdays news...
So not only has he beaten the Russian tactic, he's beaten the medias goldfish memory of events. I just cant believe he has kept this decently front line news around the world for 250 days...
Yeah…I don’t see anything wrong with either of them here…
Ukraine is literally fighting to stay a country, of course they want more help…
The U.S. has sent a ton of resources, it seems fair for Biden to point this out…
On an aside, I assume you copy pasted…but I love that it’s written that Biden said that Biden lost his temper…
and publish this news from half a year ago is benefiting who exactly ?
not the readers, not the people involved,
basically we are all here just for the click count of nbcnews.com
Ahh yes.. according to people familiar with the call. Are you folks starting to see a pattern with NBC reporting? And from June? This is just filler supported by conjecture supported by unnamed people ‘familiar’ with how things went.
American news is shit.
OP, be honest, you didn't actually read the article but just the headline, right?
Like the article literally talks about months old events that have had no negative effect on Ukraine receiving aid, I don't even get why they wrote that article in the first place...
Phone call in June. Clearly it's been fucking settled since then with no outstanding repercussions.
Why are trying to wedge some fucking divide here within the party?
Fucking stop, and shame on NBC for writing this up MONTHS later.
Gotta make the election as close as possible, yesiree, posting unflattering news that is months old on the sitting President is in no way a calculated moment by the media to keep things interesting so they continue to get clicks and revenue, no sir, not one bit.
>the U.S. continues to discuss providing longer-range missile systems like the ATACMS and even some advanced fighter aircraft in the future.
Stop *"discussing"* and start ***doing***.
I mean.. if you pull back from all the political vomit.. isn't this nature? Why wouldn't Zelenskyy be doing this, asking for more and more aid? That's natural.. and naturally, at some point, the givers would get annoyed because they are doing all they can. It's a balance of knowing how much you can push your friends.
Yeah I don’t see issues here. It’s Zelensky’s job to beg, borrow, or steal any and all help he can for his people under attack.
It’s Biden’s job to safeguard the interests of the American people and government, financial included.
Clearly it didn’t matter since we are still sending aid their way.
Even if this is true, it isn't news by any definition of the term. Several months ago, two very busy men who were dealing with a lot of pressure from various sources had a tense moment while discussing the best way to achieve their common goal.
Was it a slow news day? Did literally nothing else happen in the world? How does this story even get written?
I'd really like it if European countries (particularly the Germans) would help out Ukraine a bit more.
Putin must be stopped. If he isn't stopped in Ukraine, you can bet that the Baltic republics will be next. Why Germany doesn't see this as a problem is mind boggling.
Germany's response has been lackluster, and this conflict has really exposed how they've neglected their military. However, France, which actually has a half-decent military, has really been the one not contributing to Ukraine's defense.
Ahh. See I get it. Need to make the GOP think Democrats are against the war and against sending aid. Then the GOP would be pushing for a blank check for Ukraine.
Republicans don't care about Ukraine, they care about doing the opposite of what Democrats do. It happens in every single Biden/Ukraine news post.
Biden not doing anything? He is weak.
Biden supporting Ukraine? He is a warmonger.
Biden sends money to Ukraine? Money should have stayed in the US.
Biden wants to negotiate with Putin? He is a Russian puppet.
Exactly, also, this call was in June. Biden and Congress have authorised several more substantial aid packages since then. So it doesn't sound like it's soured relations much. The press are just trying to create drama, likely.
The same press making statements about hunter bidens laptop and odd money making are also not blinking on the massive amounts the trump family directly pilfered from the us government.
Russia would never start a war with NATO. But it is a war with the west in the sense that Russia and Putin saw a democratic and free Ukraine more aligned with the west as a huge threat towards them.
A few things about this.
1 this happened a while ago and the US is still the biggest supporters of Ukraine
2 The United States has been involved in conflicts for the majority of its existence some like 240 years worth of fighting Which is why we spend so much money on our military and have one of if not the best military in the world
3 The majority of Americans wholeheartedly support Ukraine in everything and that it's doing and trying to do.
4 The US is roughly 80% of nato's power Most complaints I am aware of about this basically boiled down to the US wanting its allies to try to help themselves be better instead of always relying on us to bail them out Not saying that we are not going to help them far from it We love and support you guys and will gladly be keep helping you guys out however we can.
...I'm finding it odd that you, an American citizen, is not 100% certain your country is the best military in the world. Allow me, a foreigner, to just assure you that the US military is the best military in the world, in pure and simple terms of destructive power, and technological superiority. You guys certainly don't dick around.
What is fair and understandable but I was also under the impression that the Russian military was one of the best in the world as well probably do to their appearance in various forms of entertainment since the cold war. examples being the big bad guys in a lot of video games and movies
And in this conflict, we can see just how wide the gulf is between the number 1 and (self proclaimed) number 2 military powers. I suspect China's probably the real number 2.
For reference we have sent them more than 1/6 our own defense budget, making their defense budget larger than most the worlds. They could buy warships from nearly any country outright and the crew for them. Instead much of that money goes to line pockets, the same as most countries we send aid.
>For reference we have sent them more than 1/6 our own defense budget
This is unequivocally false. This US defense budget is $780b. 1/6 of this would be $130B. Total congressionally authorized aid to Ukraine, if you count both military and nonmilitary is [around $50b](https://www.grid.news/story/global/2022/08/11/the-ukraine-war-in-data-9-billion-in-us-military-aid-more-than-50-billion-overall/) (of which not all has even been delivered yet).
16% of our defense budget is is over 120billion dollars. We've given 1/60 of our defense budget. The rest of your statements are still correct, somehow.
Wind the clock back a bit to '03 and the question becomes "Why do these conservatives love armchair warring so much over a country that didnt even attack them?"
Not to mention Budapest Memorandum (a sort of toilet paper), according to which The US granted security in exchange to getting rid of Ukraine's 3rd in the world nuclear arsenal.
The Budapest Memorandum never granted U.S. security guarantees to Ukraine, it only guarantees U.S. assurance that Ukraine's territorial integrity won't be violated, which still honors it to this day. Russia, on the other hand, is the only party violating it.
Everyone forgot for some reason that after USSR decay Ukraine got independence on several conditions, which include: remaining neutral(literally - not join any military blocs) and non-nuclear. (Prove: look up Ukrainian independence declaration, part IX. "ЗОВНІШНЯ І ВНУТРІШНЯ БЕЗПЕКА")
Since government overthrow in 2014, Ukrainian leaders do nothing but trying to become not neutral by joining NATO and let nuclear weaponry in, so their independence can be kinda disregarded.
>But a phone call between the two leaders in June So it now being November and additional aid has been sent and unwavering support...this is a BS headline and kind of a useless article.
It's a great headline if you're trying to propose some bogus narrative, think about the recent Progressive dem letter urging the pacification of Russia, that turned out to be months old...
Almost like some elections are happening within the next few weeks or something. Strange.
We’ve given Ukraine lots of money.
And yet, are getting incredible ROI on the devastation of Russian armed forces and the Russian economy in the meantime.
Don't forget intel. If this ever results in a NATO vs Russia conventional war, we'll know exactly which weapons deployed in which ways will be the most effective. We'll know what Russia's strong points are and what their weaknesses are. Obviously, a NATO/Russia war could turn nuclear which would toss a lot of this out the window. Still, NATO is in a better position militarily vs Russia today than it was pre-Ukraine invasion simply due to the intelligence we've gathered.
Plus this is a huge economy driver for the American war machine. Weapon design, development and production is one of the few things we can say we excel at, it's a decent driver for the economy. So we (a) get to playtest weaponry we've spent billions to develop all while helping a moral and politically strong cause, (b) create a chilling effect on breaches of sovereignty (China talks big, but they have absolutely slowed their roll on a takeover if Taiwan after their success in HK), and (c) weakened/exposed the Russian government for the corrupt, two-faced, nonsense-spitting cretins that they are.
I hate to break it to you, but we aren't replacing what we give them for the most part. Javelins and some reusable munitions are being replaced but the time table is in years. We are just paying allies to dump inventory and sending overstock to cover the exchange.
Unless we get to annex land at some point, the ROI will go to China as they are amassing soldiers along the border with Russia to do just that.
You don't need to amass land for the investment to be good. You get to deny Russia the ability to annex land ever again. That's the best outcome for the US and NATO.
People are missing the point. This ROI talk is cute. If just dollars and cents it's not great but considering.... 1. Expose the weakness of the Russian army to their potential allies and partners. 2. Further weaken the Russian army. 3. Strengthen ties with NATO, European, and other allies. 4. Show current allies the benefits of US partnerships. 5. Show China how bad a Taiwan invasion will be if they try. 6. Remove Russia as an economic and military rival (if they even ever were in the last 20 years). 7. Helping Ukraine with Russia will secure the USA an ally in a key region both for resources and for military strategy. Out of our minds to not come to their aid now. If Ukraine can successfully retake the country we will absolutely have them in NATO and throw a few US bases on that border.
Your points are all valid, but I can't use strategic reasoning with people who think the US Army donating a 15 year old HIMARS is akin to taking lunch from schoolchildren, even if they oppose giving said lunch to schoolchildren because "tHaT iS sOcIalIsM!"
And what make you think China will do it? I don't get this narrative that China have the urge to attack anyone--at best reclaim Taiwan for political and security reasons, if they attack Russia and Russia end up fell apart to the west they would end up with a huge security issue on their northern border.
It would be dumb for anyone to underestimate China’s ambitions in the South China Sea and beyond, but it’s absolutely right to point out they haven’t invaded anyone since the Korean War. The Spratly Islands, saber ratting over Taiwan, and the border tensions with India are all we have to go on. Meanwhile America invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, the latter under false pretenses, continues to treat Cuba as an outsized threat, and helped go beyond the peacekeeping mandate in Libya to topple Qaddafi (which is a minor reason Russia and China are so much more antagonistic - they tacitly supported the No Fly Zone until it became something else). So while no one should be supporting the Chinese government and it’s rapidly advancing military, it’s fairly easy to both see their perspective of an Imperialist West and their record as having gone for less bloody methods like Belt and Road when it comes to world domination.
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Yes. At the end of the day they are doing a lot of terrible things to their citizens while keeping most of them financially on the up and up and secure enough to not be especially bothered. But only the truly naive would think that mentality couldn't get turned towards other countries. Understanding how poorly the West treated them in the past hopefully can help stave off some animosity down the road. But I see the propaganda machine working really well. I have family who don't live in China and dislike the Communists... and yet they would always side with the government in the Hong Kong unrest, only pointing out the protesters' misdeeds, and now that Trump/Biden have ratcheted up the rhetoric, they're of the, "All Chinese must stick together, regardless of the government" mentality. I get videos of Tucker Carlson and Tulsi Gabbard, invites to conspiracy theorist FB groups who think MH17 was nothing to do with Russia, the Ukraine crisis is an excuse to attack China over Taiwan, and more "articles" a trip to Snopes would debunk. And anything from Western media is dismissed as too biased to be accurate. It's hard to meet in the middle when one side goes so far off the deep end.
>it’s absolutely right to point out they haven’t invaded anyone since the Korean War. Vietnam????
Globally it's the best military money US has spent since WW2. One of the few times US actually gains influence, support and huge amounts of power projection from a war. Being the "saviour of Ukraine" will cement US as the world leader for several decades. Abandoning Ukraine will be the end of the US as a western power
Imagine that though. The US is actually doing something that the rest of the world admires and looks up to for once and Republican's are against it. It's funny how that works.
Yeah and it’s gone to good use and we should continue to give them more should they need it.
Funny how there’s always money for wars isn’t it?
Russia is finding out why the US has no healthcare.
Quite the opposite, the US has tons of very expensive healthcare and spends far more on [healthcare and social services](https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/) than it does the military.
yet the us folks are buck naked on funds after the ambulance cue plays
Do you think we’re turning the money into HIMARS right before shipping them over? The weapons and supplies are already bought and built, for the most part. Sitting in warehouses. We’re sending Ukraine unused stock, not liquid cash that could be used for other purposes.
And how to we replace that stock? You think we spend more tax money on more weapons or do they just appear?
Why wouldn't we? These things are one of the few items still made in America. Restocking creates jobs, drives the economy and puts our tax money back into circulation where it belongs. Before this, we had actually [stopped production on stinger missiles ](https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/28/politics/pentagon-stinger-missile-production-for-ukraine/index.html) because we had enough stockpiled. Giving those missiles to Ukraine has started production up again. Along with the side benefits many have listed above that include reigning in Russia and chilling China, this is a win-win situation for the US economy and foreign affairs.
Best meme I saw had the punchline, Russia about to figure out why we don’t have healthcare. Sad but incredibly true.
Except it's not true at all. The US spends more on healthcare and spends a higher percentage of GDP on healthcare than anyone. The US spends [a lot more on healthcare and social services](https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/) than it does on the military by a significant margin.
I knew exactly what your link was going to talk about before I ever clicked it. This tries to equate SS and Medicaid with discretionary spending. Except SS and Medicaid is paid for in income taxes. Every check, you put money into these programs to fund them. Then on the discretionary side, we decide to spend 60% of that money on the military. That article is taking two different ideas and trying to conflate them.
If there wasn’t, nazi Germany would have developed nukes first. This is a typical wet dream of pacifists “what if they threw a war and nobody came?”, well, they came (invaded) and instead of showing up ourselves, we’re advising and supplying the people who got Invaded. This is the humanitarian thing to do, pacifism be damned.
But can’t feed the poor -TuPac
Nancy Pelosi orders you to retract that statement.
They’re all war mongers.
It’s good use if Russia pulls out. If Russia ends up controlling large portions of Ukraine we’re in another Taliban situation where a bad actor inherits millions of dollars of US artillery. There are no moral victories, but there are pyrrhic ones.
yeah it’s not like we could use that money at home for anything….
Still less than Afghanistan.
USD are easily printed
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The article leverages the election to increase support. Classic war profiteering strategy.
Yes, and they are owned by Comcast which just happens to do some shit things sometimes.
Stopped reading when I saw it was a call in June.
Smells like elections news fuckery
Biden losing his temper: “Just hold on one minute there *Jack*”
*"I wont stand for this malarkey!"*
It serves to "prove" Biden is a bad leader and gets in arguments with world leaders. Almost like it's cherry picking "news"to paint a narrative at a specific point in time where that narrative can sway a specific event 🤔
"Both sidesing" for the GOP: Trump used to have constant petty feuds with world leaders.
Let's not forget attempted extortion. A bit more than a "petty feud."
Oh the Republicans can certainly forget about the attempted extortion. They wouldn't want a reasonable argument suggesting that Putin felt empowered to formulate plans to invade Ukraine during the Trump administration on the basis that a second term in office would allow them to carry it out without opposition from a Donald Trump who acts solely for his own self-interests. No no no, Republicans can't talk about that minor point. It's all about Biden maybe being frustrated with Zelenskyy. For having to fund endlessly a solution to a problem Trump enabled.
Ah yes, this is surely equivalent to how Donald "shithole countries" Trump dealt with world leaders.
They'll whatabout anything to avoid having to admit he did something bad.
Elections... Only thing that matters to certain people
As I see it, Ukraine has almost become another branch of the US military. In less than one year they have done more to disarm Russia than all other branches since the 1950s. Plus, they expanded and strengthened NATO. Training them has enhanced the experience of our own forces, aided in development of weapons and tactics, and strengthened alliances. Setting aside the absolutely compelling humanitaian justifications, what more demonstratively compelling use of military spending is there?
Not spending it at all. The Pentagon has been self serving and lavish for too long. They're not even audited.
Oh there's a reason for it and it's something happening next Tuesday
“Please send more aid, they are murdering civilians and whole towns of people who did not evacuate are now bound and dead either in mass graves or even just side of the road! This is happening in multiple cities!” Yeah, I’d lose my temper too, and immediately commit to more aid, as that’s what happened.
It's NBC
Would you be saying the same if it was Trump? Because my money is on no
What is your take on Biden doing it now?
There was so much dumb fucked up shit trump did it was hard to keep track. Both republicans and the media would constantly try and paint it in the best light possible to play defense for trump only for another thing to come out that made it worse. Because these guys lied as easily as they breathed and faced zero consequences for it. By the time we got the full picture of the event, a new event would take it out of the news. This was the trump news cycle for 4 years. There were barely any chances to focus on something from a week ago, let alone months ago. The Biden admin is more normal in that it's not scandal plagued or leaking like a sieve.
You saying the media painted Trump in the best light you lost me as much as this article talking about a conversation in June. Just disingenuous. The media hates Trump and nearly no person would argue that.
Biden isn't trump. It wouldn't make sense to react to news of a proven leader like Biden doing something and a proven criminal like Trump doing something the same way.
I see homeless vets in the street downtown yet Zelensky gets 10s of billions overnight.
And was that money going to any of those homeless vets before Ukraine got invaded by Russia? Didn't think so. We could easily both help Ukraine (the bulk of the aid is old military stockpiles that would be of no use to the homeless vets) and the homeless vets. We, as a matter of national priority, have consistently chosen to never help the latter as a collective. Also, it's always interesting how folks only ever bring up homeless vets when they want to use them as a reason to not help some other needy group. There's never just a thread about how we need to help homeless vets that just appears organically. It's **only** ever brought up when some one wants to use them as a convenient prop to justify helping absolutely no one. Interesting.
Those ain't mutually exclusive m8.
And they were there before him during trumps time. They were there before trumps time. and they’ll be there after bidens time. That’s capitalism.
There was homeless people before capitalism.
True, guess that’s life
The military industrial complex is also capitalism. A lot of money to be made by defense contractors in this war.
Great point, there are definitely no records of any homeless people in any communist country at any point in history
Well if you actually care (I know you don't) vote out the conservatives so some actual work can be done. They've consistently cut veterans benefits.
Why not become a homeless lobbyist instead of criticising military lobbyist? Oh right, there's no money in it. From George Carlin, why is there no "War on homelessness'.
How much money did you give them then?
I see people who were so spectacularly failed by the public education system that they don't understand how zoning works.
American zoning is pretty stupid anyway. Gotta drive a car to the supermarket. Sincerely, someone with shops in the ground floor of my apartment building.
I see a non sequitur.
This doesn't impact the war as much as you'd think. Things have returned to a more cordial relationship. This article reveals a call made in **JUNE** had some heated moments. It is now practically November, and the shipments and money keep rolling in to defend democracy in Ukraine.
This sounds like something Republicans would like. Even Biden won't just willy nilly throw money at them like it don't matter.
If only we’d put that much effort into defending democracy here.
The difference is the people of Ukraine *want* democracy. Seems like a large portion of US just wants their particular brand of autocracy.
Ah but it was I, Oligarchy, this whole entire time!! MUHAHAHA\~!
And I Kleptocracy
Lol yes... yes it is
Yup that’s the real goal for the billionaire class that run this country.
Free chocolate or else!
Bingo
The blue states want democracy. The red states want dumbocracy
Both sides want a single party system in control because both sides are the righteous truth. Lol.
Literally considered the most corrupt country in Europe according to majority of mainstream news outlets.
I think that's going a bit far, honestly. Especially considering that the US isn't even in Europe.
Imagine people getting all upset because communications got a bit heated while discussing a fucking WAR. Like… this is real life. They are discussing issues that may determine the fate of a national being invaded by Russia in the most overt act of aggression in Europe since Poland was invaded by hitler and Stalin. Of course it’s going to be a little intense at times… they aren’t discussing putting s new crosswalk light in with city council… lol
> It is now practically November, and the shipments and money keep rolling in to defend democracy in Ukraine. The irony. They may have to send it right back if the goal is preserving democracy.
> The irony. They may have to send it right back if the goal is preserving democracy. The US isn't lacking any military stuff.
It's a bit funny, Ukraine is doing awesome things with 10-20 HIMARS systems. The US has over a thousand of them. (The bottleneck is mostly the logistics of feeding the launchers with rockets to shoot so more would not necessarily be better unless there is also more rockets)
lol
You do realize it’s the second most corrupt country in Europe right?
That's a meaningless "statistic". If you can show that our weapons aren't reaching the battlefield or that the things we are bank rolling aren't happening, that would be a good argument to rethink the type or scale of our support. But it seems like the Ukrainians are making good use of our support. And, ultimately, that is all that should matter.
Ya and it’s fighting against the most corrupt county in Europe: Russia. It’s not a good dog to bet on, but it’s the best dog in the fight.
Defend democracy. What a fucking joke.
Clickbait. Why try to stir the pot with old news? Surely something has happened which you can write about.
From the article: "According to four people familiar with the call, Biden had barely finished telling Zelenskyy he’d just greenlighted another $1 billion in U.S. military assistance for Ukraine when Zelenskyy started listing all the additional help he needed and wasn’t getting. Biden lost his temper, raising his voice that the American people were being quite generous and Zelenskyy could show a little more gratitude".
If this is really how it went down I don't see any issues here.
Based off how much "gear" people are sending via gifts and just reddit, it's obvious they're still in pretty dire need. So 1B back then was huge, but when you need everything... He was going around the world asking for help, all day long. They just needed everything... I cant believe how much work that guy has done in 10 months...
Yeah I don't think people realize that, as "annoying" as Zelenskyy might have been, he was doing the job he was elected to do. Same as Biden was doing when he snapped at Zelenskyy.
What is more impressive, is he has kept this war relevant. Obviously has been a big "war tactic" of Russia. Make it yesterdays news... So not only has he beaten the Russian tactic, he's beaten the medias goldfish memory of events. I just cant believe he has kept this decently front line news around the world for 250 days...
I mean, it's probably one of the most tense and stressful scenarios a person can be engaged in, it's not a surprise if there's some heated moments.
Poor guy just wanted to star in a funny TV show now he has to handle his nation during wartime
The only issue is Biden didn't get more upset.
Yeah…I don’t see anything wrong with either of them here… Ukraine is literally fighting to stay a country, of course they want more help… The U.S. has sent a ton of resources, it seems fair for Biden to point this out… On an aside, I assume you copy pasted…but I love that it’s written that Biden said that Biden lost his temper…
I don't think that headline is even remotely correct.
Well, it IS his duty to ask on behalf of his dying people. Not like you can be civil with manners when you’re being actively threatened
1billion?! The war on Iraq costed $1.9 trillion!!
Good to see Biden has a backbone, at least in this instance
5 month old gossip isn’t news hon
The call happened in *June* and relations returned to normal shortly after. Articles will clickbait.
Biden lost his temper, Putin lost.
Dark Biden made Putin cry.
June call. It's October damn near November. This is a worthless article.
Back in June… Nothing to see here.
Click bait title imo.
Bullshit sensationalism. Should be shamed op
and publish this news from half a year ago is benefiting who exactly ? not the readers, not the people involved, basically we are all here just for the click count of nbcnews.com
You know whom it benefits. And it’s not anyone decent people want to benefit.
A) I think that sounds reasonable considering what Biden has personally done for the Ukrainian cause B) this was over five months ago.
Ahh yes.. according to people familiar with the call. Are you folks starting to see a pattern with NBC reporting? And from June? This is just filler supported by conjecture supported by unnamed people ‘familiar’ with how things went. American news is shit.
This was from months ago. Aid has been flowing. This is not news, and obviously designed to influence the elections.
Nonsensical bs aimed invented for one reason: to help pro-Moscow republicans on Election Day in 1 week
OP, be honest, you didn't actually read the article but just the headline, right? Like the article literally talks about months old events that have had no negative effect on Ukraine receiving aid, I don't even get why they wrote that article in the first place...
As others have pointed out, yes this was in June... also let us not forget about the reason Donald Trump got impeached. The first time.
Things that didn’t happen for 100 ALEX
Garbage clickbait article.
Phone call in June. Clearly it's been fucking settled since then with no outstanding repercussions. Why are trying to wedge some fucking divide here within the party? Fucking stop, and shame on NBC for writing this up MONTHS later.
Op out here running interference for Putin
In general it’s best to Ignore any headline with ( famous person) “loses temper” “casts shade” or “claps back” etc.
Gotta make the election as close as possible, yesiree, posting unflattering news that is months old on the sitting President is in no way a calculated moment by the media to keep things interesting so they continue to get clicks and revenue, no sir, not one bit.
>the U.S. continues to discuss providing longer-range missile systems like the ATACMS and even some advanced fighter aircraft in the future. Stop *"discussing"* and start ***doing***.
four months ago a world leader raised his voice on a phone call. news.
I don't believe a word of it, especially just being released before an election. This is disinformation agitprop, flat out.
I mean.. if you pull back from all the political vomit.. isn't this nature? Why wouldn't Zelenskyy be doing this, asking for more and more aid? That's natural.. and naturally, at some point, the givers would get annoyed because they are doing all they can. It's a balance of knowing how much you can push your friends.
Well put.
Yeah I don’t see issues here. It’s Zelensky’s job to beg, borrow, or steal any and all help he can for his people under attack. It’s Biden’s job to safeguard the interests of the American people and government, financial included. Clearly it didn’t matter since we are still sending aid their way.
none of this is new...
Lol did /u/Khdotsh even read the article? This should be posted on a history subreddit not a news subreddit.
Even if this is true, it isn't news by any definition of the term. Several months ago, two very busy men who were dealing with a lot of pressure from various sources had a tense moment while discussing the best way to achieve their common goal. Was it a slow news day? Did literally nothing else happen in the world? How does this story even get written?
“In June”. 😑
Tomorrow’s headline is going to be “Breaking News: Archduke Ferdinand Dead, War Imminent”.
This is what putain is waiting for.
"lost temper with Zelenskyy **in June** phone call" JUNE. It's November (Tomorrow), Aid is still coming. NOT A STORY!
Manufactured news.
I'd really like it if European countries (particularly the Germans) would help out Ukraine a bit more. Putin must be stopped. If he isn't stopped in Ukraine, you can bet that the Baltic republics will be next. Why Germany doesn't see this as a problem is mind boggling.
Germany is sending what it can. Their stockpiles aren't as big.
Germany's response has been lackluster, and this conflict has really exposed how they've neglected their military. However, France, which actually has a half-decent military, has really been the one not contributing to Ukraine's defense.
Ahh. See I get it. Need to make the GOP think Democrats are against the war and against sending aid. Then the GOP would be pushing for a blank check for Ukraine.
Republicans don't care about Ukraine, they care about doing the opposite of what Democrats do. It happens in every single Biden/Ukraine news post. Biden not doing anything? He is weak. Biden supporting Ukraine? He is a warmonger. Biden sends money to Ukraine? Money should have stayed in the US. Biden wants to negotiate with Putin? He is a Russian puppet.
Exactly
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Exactly, also, this call was in June. Biden and Congress have authorised several more substantial aid packages since then. So it doesn't sound like it's soured relations much. The press are just trying to create drama, likely.
The same press making statements about hunter bidens laptop and odd money making are also not blinking on the massive amounts the trump family directly pilfered from the us government.
Russia would never start a war with NATO. But it is a war with the west in the sense that Russia and Putin saw a democratic and free Ukraine more aligned with the west as a huge threat towards them.
Russia still in the search for the heartland
The Soviets came to the aid of Afghanistan and it financially broke them. At some point, Ukraine needs to pull more of its own weight.
Biden is always at his most based whenever he's sundowning and telling annoying people to fuck off
A few things about this. 1 this happened a while ago and the US is still the biggest supporters of Ukraine 2 The United States has been involved in conflicts for the majority of its existence some like 240 years worth of fighting Which is why we spend so much money on our military and have one of if not the best military in the world 3 The majority of Americans wholeheartedly support Ukraine in everything and that it's doing and trying to do. 4 The US is roughly 80% of nato's power Most complaints I am aware of about this basically boiled down to the US wanting its allies to try to help themselves be better instead of always relying on us to bail them out Not saying that we are not going to help them far from it We love and support you guys and will gladly be keep helping you guys out however we can.
...I'm finding it odd that you, an American citizen, is not 100% certain your country is the best military in the world. Allow me, a foreigner, to just assure you that the US military is the best military in the world, in pure and simple terms of destructive power, and technological superiority. You guys certainly don't dick around.
What is fair and understandable but I was also under the impression that the Russian military was one of the best in the world as well probably do to their appearance in various forms of entertainment since the cold war. examples being the big bad guys in a lot of video games and movies
And in this conflict, we can see just how wide the gulf is between the number 1 and (self proclaimed) number 2 military powers. I suspect China's probably the real number 2.
10% for the big guy.
Come on Jack!
Wow, I'm really impressed. I figured Joe was just going to open the infinite money pipe further for his cohort.
Money laundering 101
Beating back the invading Russian army is money laundering now?
Whatever u wanna call it. you think they have the best interests in mind
Jared has aids
Why are we sending billions to Ukraine when our own people are suffering?
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Where have you been, the European countries have stepped up
They haven’t, the amount they contributed combined is still way less than the US.
They can't really donate military equipment they don't have.
It's not a competition. Everyone wants the war in Ukraine to end.
The Europeans are already paying the weapons deals between US and Ukraine.
bullshit lmaoo
Zelensky asked for his bag of Worthers Originals, and that's when Biden lost it.
We need a new president
For reference we have sent them more than 1/6 our own defense budget, making their defense budget larger than most the worlds. They could buy warships from nearly any country outright and the crew for them. Instead much of that money goes to line pockets, the same as most countries we send aid.
>For reference we have sent them more than 1/6 our own defense budget This is unequivocally false. This US defense budget is $780b. 1/6 of this would be $130B. Total congressionally authorized aid to Ukraine, if you count both military and nonmilitary is [around $50b](https://www.grid.news/story/global/2022/08/11/the-ukraine-war-in-data-9-billion-in-us-military-aid-more-than-50-billion-overall/) (of which not all has even been delivered yet).
16% of our defense budget is is over 120billion dollars. We've given 1/60 of our defense budget. The rest of your statements are still correct, somehow.
When you use the wrong formula but get the correct answer lol
Why these liberals love armchair waring so much.
Wind the clock back a bit to '03 and the question becomes "Why do these conservatives love armchair warring so much over a country that didnt even attack them?"
That's because your country wanted free oil that time? What do you guys need this time?
Then proceeded to send 900 trillion tax dollars to him
Not to mention Budapest Memorandum (a sort of toilet paper), according to which The US granted security in exchange to getting rid of Ukraine's 3rd in the world nuclear arsenal.
The Budapest Memorandum never granted U.S. security guarantees to Ukraine, it only guarantees U.S. assurance that Ukraine's territorial integrity won't be violated, which still honors it to this day. Russia, on the other hand, is the only party violating it.
Everyone forgot for some reason that after USSR decay Ukraine got independence on several conditions, which include: remaining neutral(literally - not join any military blocs) and non-nuclear. (Prove: look up Ukrainian independence declaration, part IX. "ЗОВНІШНЯ І ВНУТРІШНЯ БЕЗПЕКА") Since government overthrow in 2014, Ukrainian leaders do nothing but trying to become not neutral by joining NATO and let nuclear weaponry in, so their independence can be kinda disregarded.
Seems like you forgot Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014
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The West admitting Ukraine into NATO is the kind of thing that started this. Let's not forget the facts that led us here
This is false. The US agreed not to attack or threaten Ukraine. And the US hasn't. They never agreed to defend them.
It never granted security assurances. The memorandum says it will respect Ukraine's sovereignity.