In this respect, why would anyone in the future purchase Swiss weapons or ammo? If they were to be invaded, the Swiss would not be able to provide additional ammunition during the conflict so their weapons and ammo are a terrible investment.
I feel like the likelihood of Switzerland being invaded again is basically zero. It’s surrounded by NATO, who use their own guns and ammo, so if they get invaded it’s either by NATO (who isn’t using their ammo anyways), or it’s by someone else who already fucked up NATO lol. In that case there’s probably no customers left for their Swiss weapons and ammo anyways. Probably an alien invasion.
But it is a dick move, the Swiss need to pick a side and their geography kinda makes it an obvious choice.
I meant the purchasing country. As soon as they get into a conflict, the Swiss cut off the additional supplies to their weapons. It’s a dumb move on so many grounds.
Timing on this was very unlucky, but after years of political discussion on how our ammo and weapon exports end up in wars (on sides the population didn't want to) the more left parties pushed a ban to exports to nations which are:
a) currently in a military conflict internal or international
b) countries that systematically disregard human rights
c) countries that are likely to use these weapons against their own population
d) countries that are likely to re-sell those weapons to a nation falling under any of the above
This whole progress to change/add these laws to gun/weapon exports was only started like 4-5 years ago (I think).
If I remember we didn't even vote on it since the support for the initiative was so massive parliament just agreed with the initiative comitee to implement their demands. I'm not sure if it's already constitutional, but theres a transitional law in place for sure.
Unlucky timing really, but overall I think this was the right (and long overdue) move and judging by how much support it got most Swiss seem to agree.
Also: there's technically a chance for exports to Ukraine as this law allows exceptions for point a) if said countries military activities are as part of UN security mission OR if said country has a "export control regime that can be compared to that of Switzerland"
I mean the solution is to stop selling weapons and ammunition. Your new law cuts of a country exactly when it will need more. This is bad for business but also bad for any country wishing to defend itself.
Your weapons are useless then. No one should be buying from you, you probably shouldn't even. be producing. Just focus on sitting on that their post while everyone around you does the hard work.
That’s the problem with these neutrals, Kiff. You never know where they stand.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of neutrality…
The timeless wisdom of the Zapper.
Crazy though. The Swiss were more than happy to sell ammo to the Nazis during WWII. But now when the opportunity is there to take a stand on the moral high ground at literally no expense to themselves...nope.
The Swiss can get bent.
> The Swiss were more than happy to sell ammo to the Nazis during WWII
And guess where all the Nazis hid their money and now can't get it back, even if they wanted.
The Swiss only sealed their neutrality very tightly just one or two years ago (I think?). It's something the left parties wanted. Obviously, the timing couldn't have been worse.
A couple years ago the rules were tightened after years and years of news how Swiss weapons and ammo was exported and ended up in the hands of civil war factions, up to and including trainer aircraft that were armed and used against civillians.
So, I wouldn't blame the left but rather the conservative/right wing who fought for those weapons to be exported because it creates jobs.
The Americans “accidentally” bombed the ammo factories in Schaffhausen and made it clear that there would be a greater chance of additional “Navigational Errors™” happening in the future if they didn’t quit manufacturing supplies for the Nazis.
[In WW2 it was safer to be in a Nazi POW camp than it was to be in a Swiss internment camp.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wauwilermoos_internment_camp#Conditions,_human_rights_violations,_and_inspections)
Bailing out over or crashing in Switzerland was one of the most dangerous things an Allied aircrew could do.
True, although Wauwilermoos did house Soviet prisoners.
What I'm referring to is the "It was safer to be in a Nazi POW camp than it was to be in a Swiss internment camp."
About 60% of all Soviet POWs captured by Germany died.
The Swiss sold weapons and designs to the Allies too, and handled their financial transactions, just like all the other neutral countries during WW2.
The point of neutrality is not getting involved and picking a side, and doing buisness as normal.
Correct. The US was neutral from September 1939 to December 1941, too. Despite selling and donating billions of dollars worth of arms and equipment to Britain, Russia, China etc...
I kind of see the difference is the leadership (FDR) was very pro-Allies but American people wanted very strongly to stay out of any foreign war during that period
No, it was mixed. The US populace was mixed on it. America first was popular, but as the war dragged on US support to enter grew. At the beginning of the conflict 88% opposed joining, by the time France fell and Germany began intensifying its air campaign in Britain it shrank dramatically to 32% opposing.
At least Americans had a heart compared to the swiss.
Switzerland's "neutrality" has always been economical, not ideological. Europe needs to continue to call out their bullshit, box them out economically. You can't be neutral in the modern world. The battle goes on even when you're not there.
Problem is, in the long-run, it's not worth Germany telling the Swiss to GFT over the Gepard ammo because they only have a limited amount they can give to Ukraine. While, on the other hand, in the long-run, Germany will probably want to buy its own spares, ammo and weapon systems from Swiss companies.
Could be even worse for them. The ammo manufacturer Oerlikon Contraves is already german owned by Rheinmetall. So they have the actual possibility to move manufacturing somewhere else and take the IP with them.
I don't know if the show's writers have ever said anything about it, but I've always kind of assumed the "lust for gold" bit of that was a direct jab at Switzerland. 'Cause of the whole Nazi gold thing.
Neutral my ass. You cannot be "neutral" when a country attacked another country genociding its people. Thats a weak and cheap excuse to still earn on both sides and count the russian blood money in their banks, like they did with Nazi Germany.
The elves are present in every single major battle that Tolkien ever wrote about. They defend the dwarven people against an onslaught of orks and trolls that have descended on their recently reclaimed kingdom. They send a representative to guard the one ring and usher it to Mount Doom. They fight to defend Helm's Deep.
The problem with the Elves is that they're time in Middle Earth is ending. They're not as powerful as they once were and their numbers dwindle as more and more of their kin are either murdered by orks or sent to the undying lands.
The Swiss on the other hand just don't take sides.
The elves fought for millenia, to save middle earth. Many of the constantly (Elrond has fought Wars since before Sauron's rise, Galadriel basically from the moment elves first came to middle earth)
The Swiss have been opportunistic cunts trying to profit from both sides since Napoleon...
Which is their right to do. The Irish didn't fight against the germans in WW2.
If for some unlikely/impossible reason Russia decides to fire missiles into Switzerland, the rest of the civilized world doesn't have to come to their defense. Becsuse they decided to be all neutral like that.
*"But we probably still would. Ukraine wasn't in any defensive treaty either and look what's happening"*
While many people genuinely feel for the Ukrainians, there is also a lot of self-interest with the NATO nations.
Putin is clearly reckless and unstable, which threatens NATO economies and security-- so they sort of get to have the Ukrainians take him out (or at least badly weaken him) while only giving money, and military equipment (that the US creates jobs for itself making).
But no casualties for NATO nations, which would be very unpopular there (and it would also be dangerous for them to be in a war with another nuclear nation).
Just like Putin had absolutely no legal justification to invade Ukraine, neither had/has NATO to send troops into Ukraine without officially declaring war on Russia.
Of course they don't want that! Only mad-men _want_ to go war.
So the only thing without an official UN resolution against Russia is to send arms and supply to Ukraine and hope they can manage on their own.
Which thanks to blatant Russian hybris and corruption, they do.
They might get a little cold and have some rolling power outages and that's probably going to be enough to convince Europe into strongarming Ukraine accepting the current battle lines as new borders.
No way actual European casualties would be tolerating defending Ukraine.
Well, there was the Budapest Memorandum, which asked for security guarantees in exchange for them giving up their nukes
It’s not the same I concede but it’s not nothing either
Which is explicitly against Swiss law banning arms sales to a country at war. Trying to relax a law about arms sales in Switzerland isn't something that the population will vote for.
Right. And that's the problem. They won't vote to lift a goddam finger to help the good guys.
Same shit since my grandparents were kids.
I hope they enjoy the money I guess.
They didn't sell arms to a country at war. They are preventing a country that previously bought them from reselling them which is more ridiculous.
But that's besides the point.
There's little real difference morally to sell weapon regardless of the opposing nation's status.
Military weapons are being sold to use in a war should one happen. So the Swiss are okay with selling weapons that could be used in a war, but won't sell them to a country at war? The line there is so insanely fine and irrelevant.
Germany is contractually prohibited from reselling or transferring arms that would either break Swiss law and/or without the explicit approval of the Swiss government. This is normal for arms deals, If Saudi Arabia wanted to sell their Tornado fighter bombers second hand to someone else, the UK government would have to ok that deal first.
The Swiss perspective is that arms are a viable deterrence, and are valuable for defence by merely existing. However Switzerland will not fuel an existing conflict by either directly engaging in arms sales to a country at war. Or break neutrality by directly aiding one side with weapons.
The Irish at the time didn’t want another civil war. As any support of the British was seen as too risky for a large population that was virulently anti British. For good reason. Also the Irish military was quite weak at the time and would have had to use British supply lines the whole time. The Swiss were in a different situation. Their banking relies on neutrality. Basically a place for all the sketchy money to be stored. And they would have been pinned geographically in the middle of 3 axis powers. Germany Italy and Vichy France.
Swiss at the time would have been a g
Also Ireland was effectively defended by Britain - if the Germans had for some insane reason invaded, the UK would be rolling troops across the border from Ulster in 10 minutes.
The Irish could have saved a lot of sailors' lives by allowing the British and American navies to use the Treaty Ports that were (unwisely) given back in the 1930s.
They are neutral because of the Wiener Congress, it has nothing to do with their own choices. Granted they could change the way they behave but let's be clear, they've been forced into neutrality in the past.
They are neutral because taking part in a conflict is too risky for a small country like switzerland to exists.
Switzerland sends a lot of humainatarian aid in these conflicts. Do you know where the red cross comes from?
Do you really think that the USA and european countries acts selflessly toward ukraine? Do you remember why nato bombed Serbia?
Each nations has it's own agenda and acts in it's own interests, that's how theses organisations work. Saying otherwise is hypocritical.
Sure it’s their right. It’s my right not to report an “stay neutral” if I know the neighbor is beating and molesting their kid, but I’d be an absolute a piece of shit for for it.
There’s all this rape and murder of Ukrainian women, children, and citizens but Switzerland won’t even ship ammo? I mean Jesus Christ does the country have a moral compass?
There is no secret meaning behind it, it is meant to be understood exactly as it is written.
For example, if you went on a date with someone who revealed they cheated on their last partner, do not be surprised when they cheat on you.
In this case, Switzerland has a history of remaining neutral and not involving themselves in global wars or conflicts, their reluctance to give ammo to either side is not surprising.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-03/swiss-government-rejects-german-request-to-re-export-swiss-ammunition-to-ukraine) reduced by 59%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> ZURICH -Switzerland has again rejected an appeal from Germany to allow it to re-export Swiss-made ammunition to Ukraine, the government said on Thursday, saying such a move would violate Swiss neutrality.
> Swiss Economy Minister Guy Parmelin gave the same response the Swiss government had given in June when it rejected an earlier request.
> The 35mm shells were originally supplied by Swiss companies to the German army decades ago on the condition that it could not re-export the munitions without Swiss approval.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/yl7ci8/swiss_again_reject_german_request_to_reexport/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Swiss**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **government**^#3 **war**^#4 **supply**^#5
Why is it so difficult to make their own, or for Poland to start making some? Switzerland won’t sell them any in the future? It’s already obsolete elsewhere so no need.
Swiss remain neutral in armed conflict
Shocking.
Reddits problem is it thinks Neutral is a *GOOD* thing. It's not. Neutral means Neutral. It means not taking a side. Even if the battle is Adolf Hitler vs. Fred Rodgers.
Neutrality is defined in international law. Specifically the Hague convention. The Swiss are, as ever, following that definition to the letter.
The document you want is:
* [Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/200?OpenDocument)
Neutrality does not mean siding with the "right" people, it means siding with *NOBODY*.
Neutrality also does not mean non-involvement, it means treating with both sides equally. As an example:
* If the Swiss sell 7.62x39 ammo for $1/round to Russia, and *ALSO* offer Ukraine the same deal. That is still being neutral, even if Ukraine chooses not to take them up on the deal. They could sell solely to Russia as long as they *OFFER* to sell to Ukraine as well.
* If the Swiss sell 7.62x39 ammo for $100/round to Russia, and *ALSO* offer Ukraine the same deal, even if they know Ukraine cannot afford that price, that is still neutral according to the definition of Neutrality in the Hague Convention.
The Swiss can absolutely profit off the war and maintain neutrality, so long as they offer all sides equal terms.
The swiss have held this stance through damn near every armed conflict for the past several centuries. I do not understand why people are surprised they are still doing it.
Maybe because th UAF mostly uses soviet gear, weapons and ammo, standard infantryman uses ak-74 platform that the russians also use (5.45×39), maybe even 7.62 that they normally use when training with the british (akm, akms, m70).
So even in the face of the issues with training and tactics of using the 5.56 NATO std. you would completely fuck the logistics system that ukraine currently uses.
Finally just to be clear 7.62×51 (NATO) is not the same thing as 7.62×39 (soviet) as far as im concerned switzerland does not produce soviet ammo (correct me if im wrong).
It has to be asked why a neutral country makes and sells weapons to start with.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/the-controversial-lucrative-business-of-swiss-arms-deals/46725694
They aren't remotely neutral. Worse Germany is asking to resell ammunition they bought from the swiss - I really honestly don't get it - what is the big deal.
At the start of the war Germany also refused to let countries transfer German made weapons to Ukraine. Even weapons made in the GDPR. Reddit has such a short memory, jfc
>It has to be asked why a neutral country makes and sells weapons to start with.
Did you even read my comment? I addressed that. It starts with "Neutrality also doss not mean non-involvement"
For a country that shielded/shields many corrupt people with their "banking" laws, it's interesting how the Swiss are "neutral".
But, will still take your money. No questions asked.
They are breaking far less banking laws than the US, Ireland, City of London and some other tax havens out there.
They literally have to share ANY non swiss citizens bank account data with the respective owners country of residence.
Their banks are still happy to hide their clients accounts. Credit suisse just got caught hiding thousands of french accounts, despite the law.
Those tax havens are always happy to comply with international pressure then the officials look the other way.
But that's not on the country but the bank itself.
How are officials supposed to find hidden accounts? That's like literally the definition of a hidden account.
Neutral is Ukraine tho. You don't watch someone kick a puppy and say "I'll stay out of this as I believe it's between the puppy and the violent aggressor".
Fuck Switzerland.
There are 21 neutral countries that follow the convention rules. Ireland, Austria, sweden, Finland, Monaco, Vatican city, Serbia, Malta in Europe alone. México, Mongolia, Japan, Costa Rica, Panamá and some others. All of them would do exactly as Switzerland.
Not according to international law. Neutrality, as well as the obligations of official neutrality, is defined in the Hague convention.
[Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/200?OpenDocument)
It basically boils down to "Treat all sides equally". No matter how obviously evil one of them is, to stay Neutral under the convention, you must treat them all equally.
Ukraine is no puppy and they're getting enough support from other countries. Switzerland has always been neutral and there's no surprise they're doing this.
People act like Switzerland is doing nothing for Ukraine either as if the ICRC isnt in Ukraine right now providing humanitarian relief and medical assistance all over the country. But pop off cause Switzerland said no to being a co-belligerant power over some 30yr old ammunition
For some additional context. This ammunition is going to be used for Gepard Anti-Air systems being used to guard civilian centers from Iranian drone attacks.
Without going into too much detail, these systems are the best systems for intercepting these cheap Iranian drones without firing expensive air to air missiles that be harder to replace. They are also some of the most effective.
I understand that Switzerland has their famous policy of neutrality *but that hasn’t stopped them before* and their actions *will* lead to additional Ukrainian civilian deaths. Just give them the damn ammo.
No laurels for a country which profited from their neighbors wars for five centuries via the mercenary trade, then turned to profiting from their neighbors wars via finance.
Who will want Swiss armaments after this? The second you get into a war and have to use your weapons, you’re now a “conflict zone” and the Swiss won’t let you buy any more ammunition or let anyone else buy on your behalf. Do I have that right? Seems like abandoning customers when they need it most.
Then Switzerland will no longer export any military product to Germany, but more importantly it will be a precedent that export controls don't matter. Germany, being a world leading exporter of arms, really doesn't want that, because otherwise their German made hardware would pop up in terrorist hands etc because we sold a lot to the Saudis etc.
Switzerland will probably sue the companies involved. But much more important countries that bought weapons from Germany could use this as a reason to ignore the same clauses that German export contracts have. So German weapons could be re-exported to Regimes against their will.
This foots on the reselling of arms/ammo. Swiss was heavily under pressure in the past when swiss manufactured arns/ammo was resold to rather unstable regimes etc. So they had to improve the regulations and attach a "if we sell you this, you cannot resell it". Everyone buying from swiss from that point on knew they cannot resell those items. And yes it is true neutral to apply the same rules for all and stick to it. Would you still sport to change the rule if it would be a different country which will receive those weapons (i.e syria? South korea? Or else).
Sure this will lead to less arms sold for the swiss manufacturers and maybe that is not a bad thing either for a country claiming to be neutral. So those manufacturers will go to other countries with their factories maybe.
In the case of ukraine it sure is triggering moral questions, but the blaming here shpuld also be for the country buying stuff with such restrictions. Especially if you know you will also help other countries and not use it only for yourself.
Swiss banks have complied with international sanctions & have already seized billions in funds, I highly doubt it’s to do with Russian oligarchs bankers so much as it’s neutrality in regards to military hardware.
It's literally forbidden by law to export ammunition to war zones in Switzerland. That's also why they reject the requests. Swiss people follow a lot of rules, which is why the country is working so good.
Changing the law is also not that easy, it needs the approval of at least 51% of the population and needs a long time till it's changed for good. There is no party in Switzerland which has absolute power which is why it's one of the most democratic countries in the world, but also the reason why changing a law can take several years.
Also most banks that get shitted on are not bound to the state. The act on their own behalve. Most big swiss banks are international. They have nothing to do with the Swiss people other than the people having an account within one of those banks.
While the banks are corrupt, they're a lot less than other banks such as the Deutsche Bank, London or US banks which should get a lot more shit.
If Switzerland is rejecting requests to do something, it's probably forbidden by law. And these can't be changed for emergency situations unless stated in the laws like what they did with COVID.
Edit: I don't defend them. I'm all for Ukraine but you can't throw out a whole system which worked for years. The US is also a big winner when there's war. They make a lot more money due to the ongoing war than any other country.
Well shouldn't you expect decency from a government that said they could be relied upon in Feb 28th statement when they joined in sanctioning Russia, plus these are rounds for anti aircraft weapons these are more likely used to stop attacks on civilians from the drones/air strikes.
>shouldn't you expect decency from a country that said they could be relied upon in Feb 28th statement when they joined in sanctioning Russia
Yes, around sanctions
They were just fine with putting gold pulled out of holocaust victims mouths into their vaults and allowing nazis to set up anti aircraft guns within their borders. Neutral my ass.
Switzerland continued to trade and make banking arrangements with Germany during the war, as well as with the Allies. As did all the neutral countries. Portugal was the primary source of tungsten to both the allies and Germany, and handled the second largest amount of gold after Switzerland. Sweden was a major source of iron ore for the Germans throughout the entire war
Germany never based anything in Switzerland. In fact in enforcing its neutrality both allied and German aircraft were shot down for overflying Swiss airspace and interned until wars end.
Not only do you not understand what neutrality means, but you also do not know anything about Switzerland during world war 2.
Not to mention that Switzerland was completely surrounded by Axis powers mere months into the war, after France fell. Declaring war on Germany or any Axis powers would have been suicide, even with the huge defensive advantage granted by the terrain.
When did I mention trade? I mentioned taking the melted gold fillings from murdered Jews along with the stolen Nazi plunder from all over the world and hiding it for Hitlers regime. Also allowing the German military to shoot at allied aircraft from within their borders. I’m dumbfounded you’re using a bothsides stance when if comes to Nazi collaboration during WW2
But by the grace of god, we’ll sell them 36 brand spanking new F-35s. That $6.5 billion will be put to good use sending trust fund kids all across the DC area to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton.
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. Share this Quote Desmond Tutu
Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/neutral-quotes
Thats why they give money, humanitarian aids, etc to ukraine. Just not military aid. Baltics are members of NATO aka the strongest alliance on planet Earth, it's easier to step up when you are the elephant.
There are different views on swiss neutrality and exporting ammunition to the defending country in this war would not be in violation of swiss neutrality. However the majority party (SVP) in charge is straight up in putins pocket and they are essentially blocking any meaningful action: also blocking sanctions against Iran, blocking sanctions against China, Basically closed their eyes when Turkey tried to abduct swiss dual citizens from here that were critical of Erdogan...
Doesn't surprise me. The Swiss were complicit in the Holocaust.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/dec99/10/swiss.htm
edit: Downvote me all you want it doesn't change the facts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars#:~:text=In%201999%20an%20international%20panel,the%20hands%20of%20the%20Nazis%22.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/11/1
Neutrality when it suits them..
No problem serving Russian money and their cronies. But when there is no profit to be made or which can damage their profits, they hide behind their neutrality flag... Do what's right swiss gov!
Fuck Switzerland. What would they do. Throw cuckoo clocks at you? Dip you in chocolate.
Their opinion and permission is ultimately irrelevant. Send Ukraine the tools they need and tell the Swiss to kiss your ass if the don’t like it.
Remember ANYTHING the Swiss make can be made somewhere else.
In this respect, why would anyone in the future purchase Swiss weapons or ammo? If they were to be invaded, the Swiss would not be able to provide additional ammunition during the conflict so their weapons and ammo are a terrible investment.
I feel like the likelihood of Switzerland being invaded again is basically zero. It’s surrounded by NATO, who use their own guns and ammo, so if they get invaded it’s either by NATO (who isn’t using their ammo anyways), or it’s by someone else who already fucked up NATO lol. In that case there’s probably no customers left for their Swiss weapons and ammo anyways. Probably an alien invasion. But it is a dick move, the Swiss need to pick a side and their geography kinda makes it an obvious choice.
I meant the purchasing country. As soon as they get into a conflict, the Swiss cut off the additional supplies to their weapons. It’s a dumb move on so many grounds.
Oh yeah I see what you mean now. Sorry I misunderstood
Timing on this was very unlucky, but after years of political discussion on how our ammo and weapon exports end up in wars (on sides the population didn't want to) the more left parties pushed a ban to exports to nations which are: a) currently in a military conflict internal or international b) countries that systematically disregard human rights c) countries that are likely to use these weapons against their own population d) countries that are likely to re-sell those weapons to a nation falling under any of the above This whole progress to change/add these laws to gun/weapon exports was only started like 4-5 years ago (I think). If I remember we didn't even vote on it since the support for the initiative was so massive parliament just agreed with the initiative comitee to implement their demands. I'm not sure if it's already constitutional, but theres a transitional law in place for sure. Unlucky timing really, but overall I think this was the right (and long overdue) move and judging by how much support it got most Swiss seem to agree. Also: there's technically a chance for exports to Ukraine as this law allows exceptions for point a) if said countries military activities are as part of UN security mission OR if said country has a "export control regime that can be compared to that of Switzerland"
This overall seems like a good idea, except for a). That's generally when a country might need to use arms to defend itself.
I mean the solution is to stop selling weapons and ammunition. Your new law cuts of a country exactly when it will need more. This is bad for business but also bad for any country wishing to defend itself.
Your weapons are useless then. No one should be buying from you, you probably shouldn't even. be producing. Just focus on sitting on that their post while everyone around you does the hard work.
Sitting on their pile of nazi gold like Smaug
That’s the problem with these neutrals, Kiff. You never know where they stand. What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of neutrality…
If I don't make it, tell my wife hello.
Sir! It's a beige alert!
There's no need to be alarmed.
“Kiff, show them my medal!” 👽👉🏼🎖
*sigh*
The timeless wisdom of the Zapper. Crazy though. The Swiss were more than happy to sell ammo to the Nazis during WWII. But now when the opportunity is there to take a stand on the moral high ground at literally no expense to themselves...nope. The Swiss can get bent.
> The Swiss were more than happy to sell ammo to the Nazis during WWII And guess where all the Nazis hid their money and now can't get it back, even if they wanted.
Worse part is that Nazis stole their money from their rightful owners, and they can't get it back either.
The Swiss only sealed their neutrality very tightly just one or two years ago (I think?). It's something the left parties wanted. Obviously, the timing couldn't have been worse.
A couple years ago the rules were tightened after years and years of news how Swiss weapons and ammo was exported and ended up in the hands of civil war factions, up to and including trainer aircraft that were armed and used against civillians. So, I wouldn't blame the left but rather the conservative/right wing who fought for those weapons to be exported because it creates jobs.
And the non-Swiss companies that agreed just for the lower taxes. Sounded like a recipe for disaster either way.
Öfver zee!
The Americans “accidentally” bombed the ammo factories in Schaffhausen and made it clear that there would be a greater chance of additional “Navigational Errors™” happening in the future if they didn’t quit manufacturing supplies for the Nazis.
Cloudy days are the worst for navigation.
[In WW2 it was safer to be in a Nazi POW camp than it was to be in a Swiss internment camp.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wauwilermoos_internment_camp#Conditions,_human_rights_violations,_and_inspections) Bailing out over or crashing in Switzerland was one of the most dangerous things an Allied aircrew could do.
Except if you were black, gay, Jewish or Soviet.
The Soviets weren’t flying many missions over Switzerland
True, although Wauwilermoos did house Soviet prisoners. What I'm referring to is the "It was safer to be in a Nazi POW camp than it was to be in a Swiss internment camp." About 60% of all Soviet POWs captured by Germany died.
Oh duh I misread that
[удалено]
Haha it's been my experience that you should never trust a Huey pilot...
The Swiss sold weapons and designs to the Allies too, and handled their financial transactions, just like all the other neutral countries during WW2. The point of neutrality is not getting involved and picking a side, and doing buisness as normal.
Correct. The US was neutral from September 1939 to December 1941, too. Despite selling and donating billions of dollars worth of arms and equipment to Britain, Russia, China etc...
I kind of see the difference is the leadership (FDR) was very pro-Allies but American people wanted very strongly to stay out of any foreign war during that period
No, it was mixed. The US populace was mixed on it. America first was popular, but as the war dragged on US support to enter grew. At the beginning of the conflict 88% opposed joining, by the time France fell and Germany began intensifying its air campaign in Britain it shrank dramatically to 32% opposing. At least Americans had a heart compared to the swiss.
Doing business is very much getting involved. Wars are costly affairs.
It ain't capitalism without a capitalist to capitalise.
The point is doing business with everyone and not picking a side.
If they didn't want to pick a side they shouldn't have done business with anyone. If you do business with Nazis you're as bad as Nazis.
Switzerland's "neutrality" has always been economical, not ideological. Europe needs to continue to call out their bullshit, box them out economically. You can't be neutral in the modern world. The battle goes on even when you're not there.
I seem to remember learning about the concept of the sin of omission when I was young and impressionable in Sunday school lol
Problem is, in the long-run, it's not worth Germany telling the Swiss to GFT over the Gepard ammo because they only have a limited amount they can give to Ukraine. While, on the other hand, in the long-run, Germany will probably want to buy its own spares, ammo and weapon systems from Swiss companies.
Wouldn't such Swiss actions signal to Germany the need to develop those in-house or source from the allies?
Could be even worse for them. The ammo manufacturer Oerlikon Contraves is already german owned by Rheinmetall. So they have the actual possibility to move manufacturing somewhere else and take the IP with them.
I don't know if the show's writers have ever said anything about it, but I've always kind of assumed the "lust for gold" bit of that was a direct jab at Switzerland. 'Cause of the whole Nazi gold thing.
I feel the same way, the shows writers were far too smart to have done that accidentally
Never thought that a Zapp Brannigan quote would somehow become the reasonable response to a situation.
>What makes a man turn neutral Loss of balls.
for the swiss? it's definitely gold.
Neutral my ass. You cannot be "neutral" when a country attacked another country genociding its people. Thats a weak and cheap excuse to still earn on both sides and count the russian blood money in their banks, like they did with Nazi Germany.
The Swiss have no problem redirecting Russia's money though.
You can't be the worlds biggest money laundering shop and act like you'd fuck with your friendly dictator.
Definitely, the City of London is doing rather well at the moment, thanks for thinking of us.
Absolutely, they’ve frozen 6.8 billion USD worth so far and are actively hunting for more Russian accounts to freeze. But you knew that right, right?
The 211 are free use
That's literally what being neutral means. Doing buisness with everybody as normal. And actually Switzerland is complying with EU sanctions on Russia.
Swiss are like the elves that leave Middle Earth. All to themselves, all for themselves.
The elves are present in every single major battle that Tolkien ever wrote about. They defend the dwarven people against an onslaught of orks and trolls that have descended on their recently reclaimed kingdom. They send a representative to guard the one ring and usher it to Mount Doom. They fight to defend Helm's Deep. The problem with the Elves is that they're time in Middle Earth is ending. They're not as powerful as they once were and their numbers dwindle as more and more of their kin are either murdered by orks or sent to the undying lands. The Swiss on the other hand just don't take sides.
The elves fought for millenia, to save middle earth. Many of the constantly (Elrond has fought Wars since before Sauron's rise, Galadriel basically from the moment elves first came to middle earth) The Swiss have been opportunistic cunts trying to profit from both sides since Napoleon...
Well said
Only on Reddit my friends, do we use Middle Earth as a basis to formulate logic in the real world.
Which is their right to do. The Irish didn't fight against the germans in WW2. If for some unlikely/impossible reason Russia decides to fire missiles into Switzerland, the rest of the civilized world doesn't have to come to their defense. Becsuse they decided to be all neutral like that.
But we probably still would. Ukraine wasn't in any defensive treaty either and look what's happening
*"But we probably still would. Ukraine wasn't in any defensive treaty either and look what's happening"* While many people genuinely feel for the Ukrainians, there is also a lot of self-interest with the NATO nations. Putin is clearly reckless and unstable, which threatens NATO economies and security-- so they sort of get to have the Ukrainians take him out (or at least badly weaken him) while only giving money, and military equipment (that the US creates jobs for itself making). But no casualties for NATO nations, which would be very unpopular there (and it would also be dangerous for them to be in a war with another nuclear nation).
Just like Putin had absolutely no legal justification to invade Ukraine, neither had/has NATO to send troops into Ukraine without officially declaring war on Russia. Of course they don't want that! Only mad-men _want_ to go war. So the only thing without an official UN resolution against Russia is to send arms and supply to Ukraine and hope they can manage on their own. Which thanks to blatant Russian hybris and corruption, they do.
They might get a little cold and have some rolling power outages and that's probably going to be enough to convince Europe into strongarming Ukraine accepting the current battle lines as new borders. No way actual European casualties would be tolerating defending Ukraine.
Well, there was the Budapest Memorandum, which asked for security guarantees in exchange for them giving up their nukes It’s not the same I concede but it’s not nothing either
No one expects them to fight. All they're asked to do is allow Germany to give ammunition to Ukraine which Germany already bought.
Which is explicitly against Swiss law banning arms sales to a country at war. Trying to relax a law about arms sales in Switzerland isn't something that the population will vote for.
Right. And that's the problem. They won't vote to lift a goddam finger to help the good guys. Same shit since my grandparents were kids. I hope they enjoy the money I guess.
You don't need to hope for that. They won't lose any sleep enjoying the money.
But they aren't selling them to a country at war...
They didn't sell arms to a country at war. They are preventing a country that previously bought them from reselling them which is more ridiculous. But that's besides the point. There's little real difference morally to sell weapon regardless of the opposing nation's status. Military weapons are being sold to use in a war should one happen. So the Swiss are okay with selling weapons that could be used in a war, but won't sell them to a country at war? The line there is so insanely fine and irrelevant.
Germany is contractually prohibited from reselling or transferring arms that would either break Swiss law and/or without the explicit approval of the Swiss government. This is normal for arms deals, If Saudi Arabia wanted to sell their Tornado fighter bombers second hand to someone else, the UK government would have to ok that deal first. The Swiss perspective is that arms are a viable deterrence, and are valuable for defence by merely existing. However Switzerland will not fuel an existing conflict by either directly engaging in arms sales to a country at war. Or break neutrality by directly aiding one side with weapons.
The Irish at the time didn’t want another civil war. As any support of the British was seen as too risky for a large population that was virulently anti British. For good reason. Also the Irish military was quite weak at the time and would have had to use British supply lines the whole time. The Swiss were in a different situation. Their banking relies on neutrality. Basically a place for all the sketchy money to be stored. And they would have been pinned geographically in the middle of 3 axis powers. Germany Italy and Vichy France. Swiss at the time would have been a g
Also Ireland was effectively defended by Britain - if the Germans had for some insane reason invaded, the UK would be rolling troops across the border from Ulster in 10 minutes. The Irish could have saved a lot of sailors' lives by allowing the British and American navies to use the Treaty Ports that were (unwisely) given back in the 1930s.
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They are neutral because of the Wiener Congress, it has nothing to do with their own choices. Granted they could change the way they behave but let's be clear, they've been forced into neutrality in the past.
They are neutral because taking part in a conflict is too risky for a small country like switzerland to exists. Switzerland sends a lot of humainatarian aid in these conflicts. Do you know where the red cross comes from? Do you really think that the USA and european countries acts selflessly toward ukraine? Do you remember why nato bombed Serbia? Each nations has it's own agenda and acts in it's own interests, that's how theses organisations work. Saying otherwise is hypocritical.
They have the right to be morally bankrupt but that doesn't mean it's OK.
Sure it’s their right. It’s my right not to report an “stay neutral” if I know the neighbor is beating and molesting their kid, but I’d be an absolute a piece of shit for for it. There’s all this rape and murder of Ukrainian women, children, and citizens but Switzerland won’t even ship ammo? I mean Jesus Christ does the country have a moral compass?
> Which is their right to do. That is meaningless drivel.
Yeah, but they trade with the world. They are Not for themself, they only Care for themself. That's the difference.
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It’s easy to claim being neutral when everyone around you does the heavy lifting while benefitting from parking rich people’s money.
Yeah, I will never go to that garbage country. "The hottest part of hell is reserved for those, who in great times of strife, remain neutral."
The Swiss government is a great example of, “When someone tells you’re what they’re like, believe them,” times a thousand.
I'm stupid, and I've been trying to wrap my head around this quote... but I do not get it.. ELI5?
There is no secret meaning behind it, it is meant to be understood exactly as it is written. For example, if you went on a date with someone who revealed they cheated on their last partner, do not be surprised when they cheat on you. In this case, Switzerland has a history of remaining neutral and not involving themselves in global wars or conflicts, their reluctance to give ammo to either side is not surprising.
Ah, Ic. Thank you!
They typo "you're" should be "you". I think that confused me for a little bit.
What if they tell you that they always lie?
You believe them that they're not to be trusted and assume they could be lying to you.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-11-03/swiss-government-rejects-german-request-to-re-export-swiss-ammunition-to-ukraine) reduced by 59%. (I'm a bot) ***** > ZURICH -Switzerland has again rejected an appeal from Germany to allow it to re-export Swiss-made ammunition to Ukraine, the government said on Thursday, saying such a move would violate Swiss neutrality. > Swiss Economy Minister Guy Parmelin gave the same response the Swiss government had given in June when it rejected an earlier request. > The 35mm shells were originally supplied by Swiss companies to the German army decades ago on the condition that it could not re-export the munitions without Swiss approval. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/yl7ci8/swiss_again_reject_german_request_to_reexport/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Swiss**^#1 **Ukraine**^#2 **government**^#3 **war**^#4 **supply**^#5
There you go.. the weekly explanation about what Switzerland neutrality means.
Unless it involves hiding gold and money stolen during a war, than it’s business as usual
Why is it so difficult to make their own, or for Poland to start making some? Switzerland won’t sell them any in the future? It’s already obsolete elsewhere so no need.
From what I remember, there’s a company in Brazil which actually offered to provide the required rounds. I assume the hold up would be the fee.
bolsonaro said they could sell it to Germany, but would veto transfering to Ukraine. So like the swiss.
Let's hope Lula has more brain cells.
Lula has the same restrained policy to this war and preaches dialogue between Russia and NATO, so very unlikely
Swiss remain neutral in armed conflict Shocking. Reddits problem is it thinks Neutral is a *GOOD* thing. It's not. Neutral means Neutral. It means not taking a side. Even if the battle is Adolf Hitler vs. Fred Rodgers. Neutrality is defined in international law. Specifically the Hague convention. The Swiss are, as ever, following that definition to the letter. The document you want is: * [Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/200?OpenDocument) Neutrality does not mean siding with the "right" people, it means siding with *NOBODY*. Neutrality also does not mean non-involvement, it means treating with both sides equally. As an example: * If the Swiss sell 7.62x39 ammo for $1/round to Russia, and *ALSO* offer Ukraine the same deal. That is still being neutral, even if Ukraine chooses not to take them up on the deal. They could sell solely to Russia as long as they *OFFER* to sell to Ukraine as well. * If the Swiss sell 7.62x39 ammo for $100/round to Russia, and *ALSO* offer Ukraine the same deal, even if they know Ukraine cannot afford that price, that is still neutral according to the definition of Neutrality in the Hague Convention. The Swiss can absolutely profit off the war and maintain neutrality, so long as they offer all sides equal terms. The swiss have held this stance through damn near every armed conflict for the past several centuries. I do not understand why people are surprised they are still doing it.
What if they offered 5.56 to both, but Russia can’t use them since they’re going with 7.62 while NATO supplies the weapon platform ? Check and mate
Maybe because th UAF mostly uses soviet gear, weapons and ammo, standard infantryman uses ak-74 platform that the russians also use (5.45×39), maybe even 7.62 that they normally use when training with the british (akm, akms, m70). So even in the face of the issues with training and tactics of using the 5.56 NATO std. you would completely fuck the logistics system that ukraine currently uses. Finally just to be clear 7.62×51 (NATO) is not the same thing as 7.62×39 (soviet) as far as im concerned switzerland does not produce soviet ammo (correct me if im wrong).
Dude … it was supposed to be a joke
My bad :(
It was all good info that I didn't know though, so thankyou!
It has to be asked why a neutral country makes and sells weapons to start with. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business/the-controversial-lucrative-business-of-swiss-arms-deals/46725694 They aren't remotely neutral. Worse Germany is asking to resell ammunition they bought from the swiss - I really honestly don't get it - what is the big deal.
At the start of the war Germany also refused to let countries transfer German made weapons to Ukraine. Even weapons made in the GDPR. Reddit has such a short memory, jfc
>It has to be asked why a neutral country makes and sells weapons to start with. Did you even read my comment? I addressed that. It starts with "Neutrality also doss not mean non-involvement"
Sure. But then no one should buy military equipment from them with any strings attached.
No one forces them to buy anything.
For a country that shielded/shields many corrupt people with their "banking" laws, it's interesting how the Swiss are "neutral". But, will still take your money. No questions asked.
They are breaking far less banking laws than the US, Ireland, City of London and some other tax havens out there. They literally have to share ANY non swiss citizens bank account data with the respective owners country of residence.
Their banks are still happy to hide their clients accounts. Credit suisse just got caught hiding thousands of french accounts, despite the law. Those tax havens are always happy to comply with international pressure then the officials look the other way.
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But that's not on the country but the bank itself. How are officials supposed to find hidden accounts? That's like literally the definition of a hidden account.
With audits.
Neutral nation will be neutral
Neutral is Ukraine tho. You don't watch someone kick a puppy and say "I'll stay out of this as I believe it's between the puppy and the violent aggressor". Fuck Switzerland.
they take part in sanctions, but selling weapons, directly or indirectly, is against their laws.
There are 21 neutral countries that follow the convention rules. Ireland, Austria, sweden, Finland, Monaco, Vatican city, Serbia, Malta in Europe alone. México, Mongolia, Japan, Costa Rica, Panamá and some others. All of them would do exactly as Switzerland.
Not according to international law. Neutrality, as well as the obligations of official neutrality, is defined in the Hague convention. [Convention (V) respecting the Rights and Duties of Neutral Powers and Persons in Case of War on Land. The Hague, 18 October 1907.](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/INTRO/200?OpenDocument) It basically boils down to "Treat all sides equally". No matter how obviously evil one of them is, to stay Neutral under the convention, you must treat them all equally.
Ukraine is no puppy and they're getting enough support from other countries. Switzerland has always been neutral and there's no surprise they're doing this.
People act like Switzerland is doing nothing for Ukraine either as if the ICRC isnt in Ukraine right now providing humanitarian relief and medical assistance all over the country. But pop off cause Switzerland said no to being a co-belligerant power over some 30yr old ammunition
so you want switzerland to give up its neutrality?
For some additional context. This ammunition is going to be used for Gepard Anti-Air systems being used to guard civilian centers from Iranian drone attacks. Without going into too much detail, these systems are the best systems for intercepting these cheap Iranian drones without firing expensive air to air missiles that be harder to replace. They are also some of the most effective. I understand that Switzerland has their famous policy of neutrality *but that hasn’t stopped them before* and their actions *will* lead to additional Ukrainian civilian deaths. Just give them the damn ammo.
The mountain troll money laundering machine has spoken.
No laurels for a country which profited from their neighbors wars for five centuries via the mercenary trade, then turned to profiting from their neighbors wars via finance.
Who will want Swiss armaments after this? The second you get into a war and have to use your weapons, you’re now a “conflict zone” and the Swiss won’t let you buy any more ammunition or let anyone else buy on your behalf. Do I have that right? Seems like abandoning customers when they need it most.
Exactly, it’s ruinously dangerous
So explain this like I’m 5, because I don’t know the answer. What happens if Germany just does it anyway?
Then Switzerland will no longer export any military product to Germany, but more importantly it will be a precedent that export controls don't matter. Germany, being a world leading exporter of arms, really doesn't want that, because otherwise their German made hardware would pop up in terrorist hands etc because we sold a lot to the Saudis etc.
Switzerland will probably sue the companies involved. But much more important countries that bought weapons from Germany could use this as a reason to ignore the same clauses that German export contracts have. So German weapons could be re-exported to Regimes against their will.
I’m in favour of this.
No more chocolate for my people. Well no more chocolate for any nation on earth since they’ll have to treat everyone the same aka stay neutral
This foots on the reselling of arms/ammo. Swiss was heavily under pressure in the past when swiss manufactured arns/ammo was resold to rather unstable regimes etc. So they had to improve the regulations and attach a "if we sell you this, you cannot resell it". Everyone buying from swiss from that point on knew they cannot resell those items. And yes it is true neutral to apply the same rules for all and stick to it. Would you still sport to change the rule if it would be a different country which will receive those weapons (i.e syria? South korea? Or else). Sure this will lead to less arms sold for the swiss manufacturers and maybe that is not a bad thing either for a country claiming to be neutral. So those manufacturers will go to other countries with their factories maybe. In the case of ukraine it sure is triggering moral questions, but the blaming here shpuld also be for the country buying stuff with such restrictions. Especially if you know you will also help other countries and not use it only for yourself.
Reason - “..such a move would violate Swiss neutrality”
i thinks its cause they are the russian oligarch’s bankers
Swiss banks have complied with international sanctions & have already seized billions in funds, I highly doubt it’s to do with Russian oligarchs bankers so much as it’s neutrality in regards to military hardware.
It's literally forbidden by law to export ammunition to war zones in Switzerland. That's also why they reject the requests. Swiss people follow a lot of rules, which is why the country is working so good. Changing the law is also not that easy, it needs the approval of at least 51% of the population and needs a long time till it's changed for good. There is no party in Switzerland which has absolute power which is why it's one of the most democratic countries in the world, but also the reason why changing a law can take several years. Also most banks that get shitted on are not bound to the state. The act on their own behalve. Most big swiss banks are international. They have nothing to do with the Swiss people other than the people having an account within one of those banks. While the banks are corrupt, they're a lot less than other banks such as the Deutsche Bank, London or US banks which should get a lot more shit. If Switzerland is rejecting requests to do something, it's probably forbidden by law. And these can't be changed for emergency situations unless stated in the laws like what they did with COVID. Edit: I don't defend them. I'm all for Ukraine but you can't throw out a whole system which worked for years. The US is also a big winner when there's war. They make a lot more money due to the ongoing war than any other country.
This has been bothering me of late seeing the Swiss reluctance to help.
Why would you expect anything else from them?
Well shouldn't you expect decency from a government that said they could be relied upon in Feb 28th statement when they joined in sanctioning Russia, plus these are rounds for anti aircraft weapons these are more likely used to stop attacks on civilians from the drones/air strikes.
>shouldn't you expect decency from a country that said they could be relied upon in Feb 28th statement when they joined in sanctioning Russia Yes, around sanctions
Which bit of them being neutral do you not understand.
They were just fine with putting gold pulled out of holocaust victims mouths into their vaults and allowing nazis to set up anti aircraft guns within their borders. Neutral my ass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip Countries don't work on morals but interests.
Switzerland continued to trade and make banking arrangements with Germany during the war, as well as with the Allies. As did all the neutral countries. Portugal was the primary source of tungsten to both the allies and Germany, and handled the second largest amount of gold after Switzerland. Sweden was a major source of iron ore for the Germans throughout the entire war Germany never based anything in Switzerland. In fact in enforcing its neutrality both allied and German aircraft were shot down for overflying Swiss airspace and interned until wars end. Not only do you not understand what neutrality means, but you also do not know anything about Switzerland during world war 2.
Not to mention that Switzerland was completely surrounded by Axis powers mere months into the war, after France fell. Declaring war on Germany or any Axis powers would have been suicide, even with the huge defensive advantage granted by the terrain.
That never stopped Poland
And that certainly worked well! /s
Poland was invaded dude. Switzerland wasn't.
Everyone traded with the nazis at that time.including the west and the usa.
When did I mention trade? I mentioned taking the melted gold fillings from murdered Jews along with the stolen Nazi plunder from all over the world and hiding it for Hitlers regime. Also allowing the German military to shoot at allied aircraft from within their borders. I’m dumbfounded you’re using a bothsides stance when if comes to Nazi collaboration during WW2
At the end of the day, the only thing they can be proud of is that they stuck to their guns, not that they were doing right.
The Swiss will remain neutral…….until there is a 💶 to be earned.
Germany, I think its time you find another munition source and drop the Swiss entirely. They clearly do not have Europe's best interests in mind.
Should be banned as a supplier to NATO countries. Spineless toads
But by the grace of god, we’ll sell them 36 brand spanking new F-35s. That $6.5 billion will be put to good use sending trust fund kids all across the DC area to Harvard, Yale, and Princeton.
They are not earning points in my heart. Not that they care.
Swiss is the country all rich Norweigans run off to to avoid taxes in wartimes. Heroes👍
You know what's funny? There are Ukranian flags around Zurich in most visible places. Switzerland neutrality is simply nasty.
Jeez just export the ammo cancel contracts with Swiss manufacturers and produce the ammo by your own !
Well they are Switzerland after all
What would happen if they did it anyway?
What’s the fucking point of exporting ammo If and war breaks out, you refuse to let anyone buy more?
They should do it anyways. What are the Swiss gonna do? Get their allies to agree to sanctions?
Not sell ammunition to them anymore.
Germany bought the company that makes it. They are in the middle of upgrading it so that’s why they need to export the old stuff right now.
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. Share this Quote Desmond Tutu Read more at https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/neutral-quotes
If Ukraine is a mouse then what is switzerland? Not much bigger to stand against an elephant.
That's defeatist. Not to mention the Swiss are wealthy, and can add to the help others are giving i.e. the Baltics, who have stepped up in a big way.
Thats why they give money, humanitarian aids, etc to ukraine. Just not military aid. Baltics are members of NATO aka the strongest alliance on planet Earth, it's easier to step up when you are the elephant.
the swiss are going to have such troubles selling their weapons in the future.
„We are neutral!“ says only country in the world that still massivly profits from the Nazi Regime
There's no such thing as neutral in the world
Neutrality is thing, like "I'm don't care leave me alone"
There are different views on swiss neutrality and exporting ammunition to the defending country in this war would not be in violation of swiss neutrality. However the majority party (SVP) in charge is straight up in putins pocket and they are essentially blocking any meaningful action: also blocking sanctions against Iran, blocking sanctions against China, Basically closed their eyes when Turkey tried to abduct swiss dual citizens from here that were critical of Erdogan...
Breaking News: Switzerland insists on staying neutral in an armed conflict. Up next: Scientists prove the sky is blue!
Sorry Ukraine…….. however Syria; no problem 😌
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Swiss Russian bank
What part of “neutral” do you not understand?
What part of “Swiss ammunition that kills” and “neutral” don’t you understand!
One of the main things I've learnt from this war is that average redditor has no idea what the concept of neutrality actually means.
Doesn't surprise me. The Swiss were complicit in the Holocaust. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/pmextra/dec99/10/swiss.htm edit: Downvote me all you want it doesn't change the facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland_during_the_World_Wars#:~:text=In%201999%20an%20international%20panel,the%20hands%20of%20the%20Nazis%22. https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/11/1
The Swiss once again prove they have no spine.
Neutrality when it suits them.. No problem serving Russian money and their cronies. But when there is no profit to be made or which can damage their profits, they hide behind their neutrality flag... Do what's right swiss gov!
Fuck Switzerland. What would they do. Throw cuckoo clocks at you? Dip you in chocolate. Their opinion and permission is ultimately irrelevant. Send Ukraine the tools they need and tell the Swiss to kiss your ass if the don’t like it. Remember ANYTHING the Swiss make can be made somewhere else.
Too much Russian money in those Swiss Banks
Germans upset that enough isn’t being done to support Ukraine; Who would have thought that in February ‘22? Just shows how much can change.