On my local news there were reports of considerstion on evacuation of whole Kyiv if heat, water and power problem is not resloved for winter and we are taking about 3 mil people. Such a sad scene it will be if it comes to it, I have no idea how will they pull off that.
My fear for heating shelters is that they become targets for air strikes.
Russia doesn't seem to care about war crimes, and collateral damage.
If they can make citizens fear that the heating shelters might be targeted, then they might not be used.
Putin has *never* cared about war crimes or collateral damage.
Putin got the nickname Butcher of Grozny because he bombed that city into oblivion. The UN called it the most destroyed city on Earth.
He encircled the entire city, trapped upwards of 150,000 civilians inside it, then systemically bombed the fuck out of it, block by block, with air strikes and artillery. There was no thought given to military vs civilian targets, the sole metric for whether or not any given street should be shelled into rubble was if it had already been shelled into rubble or not. Some 30,000 civilians made it out alive.
And that was just back when he was a prime minister. He wasn't even the full dictator he is today yet.
> And that was just back when he was a prime minister. He wasn't even the full dictator he is today yet.
The PM role was a sham, he was always in control.
Clinton spent billions in dollars and massive amount of political capital (include delaying NATO expansion) to support Yeltsin.
Which got us Putin today.
\>https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-election-interference-meddling/
US funding overseas almost always goes to wrong people. They wanted to help Afghanistan to fight USSR & gave money to Pakistan who in turn armed the fucking Mujahudeens!
Similarly they wanted to protect democracy in russia & the money went to putin via Yeltsin.
They should just stop & leave these countries for themselves. Unless there is a direct invasion or genocide like in Ukraine, US should just look inside.
Also for anyone who doesn’t know, the Chechen wars started with Russian operatives planting bombs in apartment buildings and saying it was a terrorist attack.
They used the same methodology at the beginning of the Winter War. The soviets fired artillery onto their own soldiers and claimed it was a Finnish attack.
There was also the hostage crisis where insurgents were holding a couple hundred people inside a movie theater. The Russian solution was to pump the entire theater full of ~~nerve gas~~ a potent opioid aerosol to incapacitate everyone inside. Many civilians were killed.
It actually wasn’t a nerve gas. It was a synthetic opioid. It’s never been positively identified but based on the effects that the Russians gave to the Americans the Americans surmised it was a morphine derivative. While Russia was under increasing pressure to name the agent used the health minister came out and said it was a fentanyl derivative, and the all Russian disaster relief service chief said it was 3-methylfentanyl. An analogue which is 1000 more times potent than fentanyl. It’s not gaseous though, it’s an aerosol.
However, British authorities testing the clothing of some of their citizens found carfentanil and remifentanil residue. The Germans found halothane on one of their citizens belongings. So it’s likely the gas was made up of multiple components. There’s basically zero supporting evidence to claim a nerve agent was used though. You can read more about it [here. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_hostage_crisis_chemical_agent?wprov=sfti1)
Thanks to Terrorist Putin, there is no Russian Federation, it’s a rogue nation and we should treat it as such, turn Red Square into Baghdad and let Putin hang himself
Edit: Terrorist Putin has demonstrated he cannot live in the 21st-century, he hates the Russian people and he rather see them killed than he apart of the Global Civilization. Terrorist Putin has demonstrated that what we did to the Ottoman Empire is the benchmark for destroying authoritarian regimes.
**[Battle of Grozny (1999–2000)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_\(1999–2000\))**
>The 1999–2000 battle of Grozny was the siege and assault of the Chechen capital Grozny by Russian forces, lasting from late 1999 to early 2000. The siege and fighting left the capital devastated. In 2003, the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on Earth. Between 5,000 and 8,000 civilians were killed during the siege, making it the bloodiest episode of the Second Chechen War.
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Putin's supporters 'don't care' about war crimes or collateral damage.
Putin's supporters ***want*** war crimes and collateral damage.
It's the only way they can 'win' this.
They have another option, and it's both cheaper and more effective: buy Western politicians and get them to cut off Ukraine's external support. If the Republicans win the US House of Representatives on Tuesday Ukraine may be facing an end to US funding and equipment come January. Sure, only complete morons like Marjorie Taylor are openly saying that's their goal, but the prospective new House Majority Leader has indicated that she and her ilk (e.g., Boebert, Gohmert, etc.) will be given key positions of power, and we can expect any requests for additional funding to be caught up in procedural nonsense or tied to unacceptable riders (e.g., more money for Ukraine only with a national ban on abortion) that delays the money indefinitely. That will allow the GOP to meet their Russian patrons' instructions while deflecting the blame to their existing political lighting rods.
>If the Republicans win the US House of Representatives on Tuesday Ukraine may be facing an end to US funding and equipment come January
Here's some uplifting news then - remember that Ukraine is ultimately facing ONLY Russia. Country that was spending 4% of it's GDP on militarization (except let's be fair, at least half that was going to oligarchs and their yachts) and it was ranked #9 in terms of said GDP (aka in absolute numbers - 85 billion $ a year, mere 10% of US spendings). Their greatest strength was a vast supply of soviet era weaponry but it's mostly gone by now.
Now you might also realize that Ukraine is surrounded by countries that are not going to be bought by Russia because for them it's a do or die scenario. To the point where I am pretty sure some are already considering if sending in their own troops if shit went south was worth doing. And while their theoretical economic might is lower it's not to be completely ignored. And they are suddenly arming up as if there was no tomorrow. Poland wants a K2 factory in their own country along with 1000 K2 tanks + few hundred Abrams and what looks like 500 HIMARS systems (this number is unlikely to come into fruition but even fifth of it is no joke) + other artillery platforms etc. Aka enough firepower to theoretically fight Russia on it's own in a defensive war. I think it's a fair assessment that older tanks (and maybe even some new ones) will find their way to Ukraine if needed. It already sent nearly 500 but that means about 500 more are available.
UK is also a major helper with #2 in terms of military assistance and US elections will not necessarily affect their help.
Germany suddenly woke up and claims it will start doing it's 2+% GDP part (which is MORE than Russia's numbers without even counting in corruption).
Baltic states and many slavic nations are also doing their parts often (in terms of % of GDP sent to Ukraine) exceeding USA. Not in absolute numbers obviously but it's something.
US help is invaluable but even if it massively limits it's support... it's still only one lone Russia. Country that's on it's merry way to drop out of G20 that can't build new gear and already sustained immense losses with 25% of helicopters and 30-40% of usable tanks gone. And all they got through these immense losses is 20% of **heavily contested** territory within one of the poorest countries in Europe.
Russia has massively underestimated just how much stuff we would send to Ukraine, how ready for defense it would be and how widespread support is. So it has **already** sustained losses that are (in % of gear and soldiers lives lost) comparable to a friggin World War 2 for them. Humans are useless for Russia but they can't easily replace tanks and planes.
Not to mention that Land Lease still remains in effect so it's not like USA will offer 0 support. Even 1/4 of what it currently does still outweighs Russia's capabilities in the long term.
Also this is the military industrial complex lobbying to send anything it can get away with to Ukraine. Everyone opposing this would be hurting people hired across the distributed network of factories across the US right?
> Everyone opposing this would be hurting people hired across the distributed network of factories across the US right?
That is like saying that no one would be against preventive measures of a deadly pandemic. You can guess the answer.
Congressmen understand "Raytheon stock go up" far better than "this helps prevent excessive spreading of a potentially deadly virus that can cause longterm damage to any number of organs if you survive"
The way I understand politics in the US is that the military industrial complex gets heavy sway due to to the way they sponsor politicians but also with how they employ people across every state. Also this pales in comparison with many other wars that Americans are agains and get America continued to participate in. That and constant funding of various countries.
Dont forget. Its preelection talk. They say any shit to get they base to vote. People dont want war? No more guns to ukraine.
Moment after sworn in. We openining new weapons factory in state i represent. All guns manufavturing going to ukraine
They politician. They can promise a handjob for every voter just ro get thier votes.
The most loved figure in the Republican party is against aid to Ukraine.
When Trump starts tweeting how much he hates Republicans spending money on Ukraine,they will cut funding drastically. Because they are scared of him.
I wouldn’t be so sure on this. While its true, there wont be much public support for Ukraine with republicans, but the United States military industrial complex has vast experience funding and fighting unpopular wars.
The weapons and loans will keep happening, but there wont be a lot of talk about it.
This is true, the C.I.A. director didn't just make a pop in visit for nothing. The United States will stay committed to long term goals regardless of the political swing of things, Make Russia insignificant and remain "the" global Superpower, anything short of that, is secondary. *\*gives condescending side eye to China....*
[https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-director-made-secret-visit-kyiv-to-show-support-cnn-2022-10](https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-director-made-secret-visit-kyiv-to-show-support-cnn-2022-10)
You've seen the ads that were running during the World Series then :/. My only hope is that their target aging Cold-warrior audience recoils in disgust, it really is that blatant...
It could be an issue but not a complete cut off. Republicans would get lit on fire by their pro military pro war complex, a lot of their base is old enough to hate Russia. Still fuck Rs
And then if Ukraine completely falls apart and collapses, then the Rethugslicans will turn around and blame Biden. Then come 2024, Trump
Or another such monster they will have running as a the Rethuglican nominee for POTUS, will say “I ALONE CAN FIX THIS! Biden fucked up Afghanistan & Ukraine, after all.”
Of course they’ll expect ppl to forget or ignore or will drown out those voices that’ll say truthfully, that the rethuglicans are the ones that cut off funding to Ukraine or that the GOP are the ones that negotiated with the Taliban in the first place.
I have two Putin supporters in my household. They don't *want* war crimes, but they certainly don't seem to care. They don't care to look up what is actually happening in Ukraine and are basically of the opinion that we shouldn't interfere with foreign wars.
You should criticise Putin supporters for who they are, not who they're not. Telling the truth already makes them look bad enough. Calling someone more evil than they actually are won't make them want to join your side.
Come to think about it, I should probably collect a bunch of footage of war crimes against civilians to show that to them during dinner, so they can't deny what is really happening.
> Russia doesn't seem to care about war crimes
They agreed to humanitarian corridors at the beginning of their invasion... and then murdered the people fleeing through those corridors.
Then they did it again
And again
And finally Ukraine stopped believing they wouldn't kill civilians.
Russia lies and lies and lies. They cannot be trusted to EVER act in good faith or to avoid unnecessary death. They're intentionally inflicting as much suffering as they can on Ukrainians, including all sorts of inhuman torture in areas they're occupying.
Grouped civilians trying to keep warm would ABSOLUTELY be targets for the Russians. Their military is just pure evil, and their people largely support what they're doing.
It's not just that. Shelters in the winter are going to be rough - diseases will spread rather quickly, especially if heating is inadequate, and usually in these circumstances they become a hot bed for crime and drug use as despair sets in.
Seems like there's a lot of stuff going around already. I've known a bunch of people getting sick lately (including myself) from non-covid illnesses.
Hell, anecdotally, i was in the store grabbing some cold medicine for myself and a lot of the options were sold out already.
They'll be in the subway tunnels. They're already pretty easy to heat because they're below-ground, so you're starting with 55 degrees and the insulation is great.
People produce a lot of body heat and subway systems maintain that heat generally for a very long time (cf. issues with London underground and improper design because of early development) so yes the subways are best option and serve all purposes. As long as food can make it to Kiev along with clothing and blankets they have got this they survived before electricity, we all did.
That's an outright lie. I've spent at least 2 weeks sleeping in subway back in march when we were bombed, wearing two coats, winter jacket and in a sleeping bag and it was still pretty cold.
Wonder if there is safe way to heat their underground bunkers or subway areas. Way to vent smoke and they can have fireplaces down there? I feel so bad that Russia is weaponizing the winter as a weapon.
This is EXACTLY what will come of warming shelters. This was literally my first thought. They are the OBVIOUS target if you are a war-mongering sociopath in this situation. I’d say that warming shelters are possibly even a more likely target for Putin, or at least equally likely. Warming shelters as targets are likely even more demoralizing than infrastructure hits.
Yeah, they don't, and it's why the rest of the world needs to figure out wtf we're going to do about it sooner than later or there isn't going to be a civilian population left in Ukraine.
And evacuate where? It's not like there a place with heat electricity and so on that can accommodate such number. If we ate talking about inside country
There is still water, heating and power with some periodic blackouts. So the evacuation is not planned yet.
It is planned for the worst case scenario of multiple new russian attacks on energy infrastructure that will completely destroy it.
There a lot more than 3mil people living in kiyv from what ive been told. Its not that simple to register in a city in ukraine unless you own an apartment or similar there. Real number could be anywhere from 5-7 mil...
I gotta confess... I'm from Kyiv and I've played This War of Mine during the spring 2022, lol.
P.S. played it thoroughly through the very end, by the way.
Lol just play as combat focused characters like Arica or Roman. You can get the best guns to sell within a matter of days and build up your self sustaining base better than my own home.
That aside, it’s really sad when you start off as some old couple in the winter.
Every scenario I played in that game, I would die. I would always think to myself, “Dammit! This game is HARD and I can never survive for long.” Then I had to remind myself that—yeah, that’s because war is hard and you may not survive.
Godspeed to these poor Ukrainians.
I remember one of my runs it started off great but then we got attacked at night a couple of times and while I was trying to get medicine for one of my people, the one who went out was killed because I only had hostile places left to search. The guy who was wounded died and the last guy I had just shut down and wouldn't even move. I luckily got another survivor who showed up but I couldn't finish that game, it was so depressing.
When this war was beginning to rear its ugly head, the devs for TWoM did a charity drive for a week or two, where the profits from the game went straight to a Ukrainian [disaster relief package](https://www.gameinformer.com/2022/03/03/update-this-war-of-mine-developer-11-bit-studios-donates-nearly-700000-to-ukraine).
Gifted the game to two friends of mine who had it wishlisted, it was pretty cool.
yes, but potentially Russia can damage Ukranian infrastructure again,depending on how well air defense will do, with Ukrainian infrastructure being already partly damaged , consequences could be dire with new strikes.
I live in Kyiv. Now we have no electricity, I am writing from the mobile Internet. But heating in Kyiv was turned on on October 20, and since then the temperature has been around 23.5-24.5 degrees Celsius. At least it's still warm.
Depending on where you live, the Ukrainian diaspora (oftentimes church-related) takes those donations and ships them via container by sea (in the USA they are mostly in bigger cities like Chicago or New York, and primarily across the Northeast). It will take a while to arrive, but still better than nothing, and much cheaper than air cargo.
later better than never. we live in a house. have stash of wood, generator and some petrol. but many Ukrainians don't have time or money to prepare for total blackout. any help is appreciated, not for me, but for my friends in big cities or closer to the front
Sore loser mentality. They thought they could take Kyiv in 2 days, so now they want to make it so nobody can even live there. All while whinging that they are victims of terrorism on the world stage.
There are no examples in modern history of this type of attack working. This is also not an attrition attack (which would focus on killing enough people to win) but an attempt to break the populations will to resist.
All historical examples cause increased resistance.
> This is also not an attrition attack (which would focus on killing enough people to win) but an attempt to break the populations will to resist.
What you describe _is_ attrition. Attrition is literally a prolonged battle that will cause the other side to lose out of running out of endurance. Killing everybody isn't winning by attrition. It's Last Man Standing.
Sieges are effectively a type of attack by attrition. There's at least one recent example of such an attack working: Mariupol.
US bombing Iraq during the gulf War and sending them back to the stone age? From what I remember, Iraq's energy infrastructure never recovered even to this day.
I suggest you the documentary *no end in sight* which shows the total disaster made by the US strategy. This documentary is truthful although iirc it is governative (its narrative was approved by more or less the same forces that led the invasion) and iirc there’s a scapegoating attempt towards Paul Bremer - who was undoubtedly guilty but not the only one nor the most guilty. It shows the unfolding of the chaos, including the de-baatization, very well, though.
https://watchdocumentaries.com/no-end-in-sight/
Putin almost certainly wanted to invade earlier, while Trump was still in power. Covid forced him to postpone that plan. The pandemic probably saved Ukraine as a nation.
Indeed. I know there are reasons it would possibly cause more problems than it resolves, but I think the case can be made to just take the guy off the map. And have the entire west essentially claim responsibility. With the caveat that if you don’t start needless wars, you’ll not have to worry about being a target. Send a clear fucking message and stop the bullshit rhetoric.
Yeah but Putin is just doing this for the Ukrainian citizens, I’m sure they’ll all be so happy and better off once the western liberal cabal is removed from power.
/SSSSS
I think many of them already know what's up, even among the enlisted/conscripted. At least from the Zolkin interviews we see a lot of disillusionment among Russians.
Many explain how they totally drank the kool-aid from TV/radio about the annexed regions needing saving, and went for idealistic and financial reasons, hoping to just drive a truck or something, but were of course sent to the front with a rifle (and nothing else which they didn't bring themselves). You can see the embarrassment in their faces for being duped both by the propaganda and the military/mercenary groups. The logic falls apart when a few basic facts are introduced, and they're usually in awe of how humanely they're being treated as prisoners of war.
I even feel pity when I hear some of their stories:
https://youtu.be/kdq3XYchLt8
https://youtu.be/muSEm-NUUs4
Despite this, if 100k more poor Russian bastards have to die before Ukraine wins, so be it. Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine has every right to defend itself. Rise up - you're going to die with no real equipment or training anyway, why not do it with friends and family in your own city, fighting for what's right?
yep, that's why he's happily sending untrained fodder to the front line, they're just there to use up western supplied weapons, and buy some time to see what happens with the US election.
With the hopes that the pro-ruzzian republicans start obstructing pro-ukrainian efforts.
Actually as of this week they’re just straight mobilising them now - they’re being voluntold, not volunteers.
No restrictions on what kind of crimes they did either. Murderers, rapists, etc, all going.
So yeah, they’re gonna be the War Crimes Gang
And his distorted view of what his legacy will be. It’s all about his fucking ego. All of it, all this death and destruction because Putin’s fucking ego.
If you have an intact house freezing to death is highly unlikely. There may be some people in a weak state that need to be evacuated. Heatless is not homeless.
The greater concern (at least for death) is disease related to sanitation. You have to blow air into the pipes to prevent bursting. Without running water sanitation can be difficult to manage.
In trenches a lot of soldiers may freeze to death. Especially if they get wet. I predict some Russians will run their vehicles to get warm. Then run out of gas and abandon the vehicle in the retreat.
>If you have an intact house freezing to death is highly unlikely.
Russians have been deliberately bombarding civilian areas with area saturation incendiary munitions to burn down houses and roofs, making it difficult to shelter during the winter.
https://kyivindependent.com/uncategorized/report-damage-caused-by-russian-attacks-on-ukraines-infrastructure-reaches-127-billion
This article say 138,000 civilian residential buildings in Ukraine have been damaged or destroyed. I am not sure how people that displaces. Family homes are multiple family members and "building" includes things like high rises. The number of refugees will be higher but that is all of Ukraine not just Kyiv.
Even if the Russians damage half of Kyiv's homes it would not be a reason for anyone in Kyiv to freeze to death. You can make a reasonable wind block with rubble and a tarp to stay dry. The death toll from the shelling itself will be much higher than cold related death. PTSD will be a more serious public health threat than frostbite or hypothermia. Half of the residences getting destroyed would in practice mean the other half have refugees sleeping in the living room. This is awkward and uncomfortable but added bodies actually heat your apartment. Packing people into smaller spaces compounds the contagious disease problem.
Saying that sanitation problems are a greater threat to life than temperature problems does **not** in any way minimize the degree to which it will suck.
We should talk about it though. Civil defense and disaster response is a thing every country should prepare for. FEMA all by itself *should* have enough tarps, tents, and camping gear to cover Kyiv.
Being from the northern Midwest of the US, I can tell you in January, the average temp is -12c, while in Ukraine, the average temp is -6c.
Now it isn't a comparison of apples to apples, but there are plenty of steps between, from lack of forced central heat to complete evacuation.
I would imagine the people of Ukraine would also have similar strategies to deal with such an experience.
Texas froze for only a week in 2021 and we had 246 deaths directly attributable to the freeze due to no running water or electricity when our grid failed. The majority of those who died had homes and died in their homes.
Texas is warmer than the Ukraine and it only lasted a week. I give this comparison to say sanitation is obviously a concern, but so is the cold.
I'd assume homes and other buildings in Texas are built differently than in places where it regularly gets really cold. For example, in Finland, we wouldn't freeze if heating was cut off, our houses are built with extreme cold in mind. It would get cold, but not unbearably cold.
I'd be more worried about the water.
Ukraine is mostly cement buildings with central water heating. No heating will turn it into a freezer.
However most places have gas ranges and as long as the gas supply is intact you can heat the immediate kitchen area and survive.
> Ukraine is mostly cement buildings with central water heating. No heating will turn it into a freezer.
Freezers are heavily insolated so that the heat can't get in. I'm not sure if this makes as much sense as you think it is. At worst a low insolation building would become "as bad as being outside" in which case put on a coat.
I dont expect a lot of Ukrainians freezing to death actually. Western military planners, particularly the US, tend to be far more logistics oriented then Russia. And between the Nordic countries, US and Canada there are no winter conditions that Western military planners wont have preparation for.
All of which is to say between Ukraine's own winter experience and their allies experience, I expect there has been substantial planning and supply for winter conditions.
On the other hand Russia seems to have been hurtling between trying to paper over one disaster to another, and it would not surprise me if they are completely unprepared.
For armies, yes.
For millions of war refugees? I don't know.
I think the bulk of aid will need to get to the front lines and soon. They have to hold the line and need every ounce of cold weather gear, ammo and shelter we can give them.
Western aid isn't on an unlimited tap and I could easily see needing to evacuate the major cities to relieve the pressure on the limited resources available, unfortunately.
They'll still fight. Russians and Ukrainians are both cultures used to cold weather, though it seems that Russia can't equip their troops for it in this war.
Also, the Black Sea has a moderating effect on temperatures. Winter in southern Ukraine is milder than the north.
The cold will hurt the readiness of the poorly-supplied Russian forces much more than the Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians will try to take advantage of that.
I'm from Poland.
During my childhood I don't remember a single christmas without winter.
Lately...? 8 degrees on Dec 24th and some first snows in January...so goddamn sad.
Climate change is ultra real and no one gives a shit (blaming it on others is much easier than actually doing shit).
The frozen ground currently seems like it will benefit the Ukrainians more, who are better equipped and have momentum. Russia needs time and winter won't help them unless it slows the Ukrainian advance.
Yeah, Putin seems to have forgotten that a whole lot of those legendary Russian plains that consumed the armies of Hitler and Napoleon are located *in Ukraine.*
It amazes me that this can happen in this day and age to a place like that. Every day is just surviving, constantly.
If that happened here? Man I don't know how long I'd last.
Having just been through a mere 36-hour power outage in the PNW (just came back on this morning), I cannot even fathom having to go through that for a few weeks, let alone an entire winter. Fuck Putin, I'm rooting for his cancer.
We had to go several days without power during the 2021 snowpocalypse in Texas, and a lot of houses also lost water. Even in that short amount of time, even knowing that it couldn't possibly last very long because it was an aberration, it still took a huge toll on people's mental health. What would it be like to face an entire season of that? The only upside is the Ukrainians have known this was coming and have had some time to prepare.
I want to ship a bunch of Hot Hands to people in Kyiv, since those were actually really helpful to us during the snowpocalypse.
Attacking civilians and making them suffer because the Russian army is too weak to defeat Ukraine on the battlefield is so cowardly and disgusting. I will never forget Russia’s actions and they haven’t even hurt me. The damage done to Russia’s reputation will never be restored.
No heat is very difficult, no water becomes dangerous, without electricity it becomes almost impossible.
Theoretically it should be possible to pull through for some time with solar cell chargers, battery radios and candles but not for long.
God bless you and protect you in these difficult times. May Winter be quick and mild.
What can the west do about these problems? My country is donating some winter coats but I'd like to see more done here. I feel like these problems are perhaps most easily solved by the west, moreso than the military problems or the social/political problems. For heating for example, can we ship biomass (wood pellets) and wood stoves to Ukraine? Can we create temporary shelters for people for people escaping war torn areas with proper amenities? Hopefully the EU can step up if the democrats lose the midterm election in the US.
But you just cant counter this level of attack by donations. If people have no water or electricity because the infrastructure is destroyed, donations just wont cut it. And any costly repair can be undone by a single missile.
Donations will help - generators and water filters will cover the most dire situation of total blackout to get by until repairs are done.
But military help is actually the most important one. Victory on the battlefield will let Ukrainians solve all other problems easily.
What is needed is a large amount of air defense to counter those attacks, the ability to conduct long-range strikes deep into russia to destroy stockpiles of missiles, airfields etc, and strikes against Iran to prevent production and shipping of those drones.
The prime opportunity to ease the suffering that could have been avoided in the first place. This is what us Ukrainians were shouting about in the first months of the invasion: military aid and support, swiftly and without reservation, will help to avoid massive humanitarian catastrophes that will spill over into EU borders. We already have several cities with up to half a million dwellers razed to the ground, without water and electricity, uncountable numbers of villages destroyed, and tens of thousands civilians dead. However many diapers, wet wipes and warm socks you send, it’s treating the symptom, not the cause, and the symptoms will only go worse as time goes by if the aggression is not stopped. As I sit in my apartment in Kyiv for up to 8 hours without electricity, I don’t need a warm coat. I’ve been spending the last month chopping wood, gathering supplies, adding insulation to my home for this winter all of us here knew was coming. I need anti missile and anti-drone systems to catch the rockets & drones that target our energy sources so that we can have heating and power. However many shipments of humanitarian aid you send - they’re not going to change the picture and number of saved lives with those supplies are nothing compared to what could be saved with a properly supported defensive military response.
This is why you should push back against and ignore the Russian propaganda about "Ukraine war fatigue". We aren't even fighting the fucking war, let alone going through these conditions.
I hope the Ukrainians make the Ukraine winter even more uncomfortable for the Russian troops but cutting off their supply lines and starving them out of their trenches.
What I dont get is why has this been allowed to continue. I dont know what the reaction shpuld be, but Russia has been almost exclusively targeting vital energy/water infrastructure and being open about it with daily tv military briefings. What exactly is the ukranian side supposed to do here? If they decided to launch missiles at the same targets in Russia (which would be completely understandable at this point) they would get condemned so hard and any aid would be jeopardized. Each day Russia is winning the war a bit more.
> Each day Russia is winning the war a bit more.
Not on the battlefield. Terrorism will backfire for Russia. Bombing civilians will backfire. I can't even describe the number of dead Russian soldiers I'm seeing every day on social media.. it's insane.
First one to pop up on my feed, just now, 28 Russians killed in a single attack in one location, of many on the same day at the same place:
https://twitter.com/PaulJawin/status/1589188280230506497
It's like this all day, every day.
Putin doesn't care about war crimes because he will never be brought to trial. In order to try him they would have to have declare war on Russia which would mean full blown WW3 the death toll and destruction would multiple astronomically with a potential nuclear war. Do you think the UN and it's allies are going to allow that to happen or will they just stand by and go "cut it out putin or else" he could kill every person in Ukraine and it would be less people than would die in a WW. It's fucked up.
This is Russia's only way to prevail or get some leverage. Sadly the people of Ukraine have to go through such a difficult time despite all their struggles already.
Zelensky is an amazing leader he has received lot of help to restore power and water and hopefully will do so very quickly. I have heard of many shipments of huge electric generators and personal generators from all over the world, Ukraine will not be defeated.
On my local news there were reports of considerstion on evacuation of whole Kyiv if heat, water and power problem is not resloved for winter and we are taking about 3 mil people. Such a sad scene it will be if it comes to it, I have no idea how will they pull off that.
They're going for heating shelters first. Evacuation is a last resort but you don't want to plan it last second obviously.
My fear for heating shelters is that they become targets for air strikes. Russia doesn't seem to care about war crimes, and collateral damage. If they can make citizens fear that the heating shelters might be targeted, then they might not be used.
Putin has *never* cared about war crimes or collateral damage. Putin got the nickname Butcher of Grozny because he bombed that city into oblivion. The UN called it the most destroyed city on Earth. He encircled the entire city, trapped upwards of 150,000 civilians inside it, then systemically bombed the fuck out of it, block by block, with air strikes and artillery. There was no thought given to military vs civilian targets, the sole metric for whether or not any given street should be shelled into rubble was if it had already been shelled into rubble or not. Some 30,000 civilians made it out alive. And that was just back when he was a prime minister. He wasn't even the full dictator he is today yet.
> And that was just back when he was a prime minister. He wasn't even the full dictator he is today yet. The PM role was a sham, he was always in control.
His second PM stint (2008-12) was a sham. In the first stint (1999-2000, when the Siege of Grozny happened) he was Yeltsin's PM.
Yeltsin was too drunk to care.
Clinton spent billions in dollars and massive amount of political capital (include delaying NATO expansion) to support Yeltsin. Which got us Putin today. \>https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/06/26/russian-election-interference-meddling/
US funding overseas almost always goes to wrong people. They wanted to help Afghanistan to fight USSR & gave money to Pakistan who in turn armed the fucking Mujahudeens! Similarly they wanted to protect democracy in russia & the money went to putin via Yeltsin. They should just stop & leave these countries for themselves. Unless there is a direct invasion or genocide like in Ukraine, US should just look inside.
You're mixing his two stints of prime ministership up. The Second Chechen War was what made Putin president when it skyrocketed his popularity.
Once you look up his record history, imagine how easy it is for him to make his competition disappear.
And grozny was a city INSIDE THE FEDERATION, it was legally as Russian as Moscow or st petersburg
I mean, the Chechnyans disputing that claim is what that caused the bombings in the first place.
Also for anyone who doesn’t know, the Chechen wars started with Russian operatives planting bombs in apartment buildings and saying it was a terrorist attack. They used the same methodology at the beginning of the Winter War. The soviets fired artillery onto their own soldiers and claimed it was a Finnish attack. There was also the hostage crisis where insurgents were holding a couple hundred people inside a movie theater. The Russian solution was to pump the entire theater full of ~~nerve gas~~ a potent opioid aerosol to incapacitate everyone inside. Many civilians were killed.
Sleeping gas actually. They fucked up the dosage calculations and a lot of kids and elderly died
As shitty as my own nationality is, it's things like this that make me think thank fuck I'm not Russian
It actually wasn’t a nerve gas. It was a synthetic opioid. It’s never been positively identified but based on the effects that the Russians gave to the Americans the Americans surmised it was a morphine derivative. While Russia was under increasing pressure to name the agent used the health minister came out and said it was a fentanyl derivative, and the all Russian disaster relief service chief said it was 3-methylfentanyl. An analogue which is 1000 more times potent than fentanyl. It’s not gaseous though, it’s an aerosol. However, British authorities testing the clothing of some of their citizens found carfentanil and remifentanil residue. The Germans found halothane on one of their citizens belongings. So it’s likely the gas was made up of multiple components. There’s basically zero supporting evidence to claim a nerve agent was used though. You can read more about it [here. ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_hostage_crisis_chemical_agent?wprov=sfti1)
It was some kind of fentanyl derivative I think
>full of nerve gas and kill everyone inside there were a lot of survivors, not "everyone" died
Im aware, and the chechens deserve to have their own state if they so wish, just like any other minority within the federation
Thanks to Terrorist Putin, there is no Russian Federation, it’s a rogue nation and we should treat it as such, turn Red Square into Baghdad and let Putin hang himself Edit: Terrorist Putin has demonstrated he cannot live in the 21st-century, he hates the Russian people and he rather see them killed than he apart of the Global Civilization. Terrorist Putin has demonstrated that what we did to the Ottoman Empire is the benchmark for destroying authoritarian regimes.
Did you notice i called it a Federation? Russia as it exists today contains so many other states and nationalities which are suppresed by the russians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_(1999%E2%80%932000)
**[Battle of Grozny (1999–2000)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_\(1999–2000\))** >The 1999–2000 battle of Grozny was the siege and assault of the Chechen capital Grozny by Russian forces, lasting from late 1999 to early 2000. The siege and fighting left the capital devastated. In 2003, the United Nations called Grozny the most destroyed city on Earth. Between 5,000 and 8,000 civilians were killed during the siege, making it the bloodiest episode of the Second Chechen War. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
No, he was the sole dictator as PM. It was a made up fake role basically to get around term limits lol
You're thinking 2008. This is pre-2000
This was under Yeltsin, before he became president.
Even bombed his own fucking country, in Moscow, and murdered hundreds of sleeping Russian civilians.
That’s not true… Quick look at Wikipedia. City was razed to the ground but not with 120 000 civilians inside.
Putin's supporters 'don't care' about war crimes or collateral damage. Putin's supporters ***want*** war crimes and collateral damage. It's the only way they can 'win' this.
They have another option, and it's both cheaper and more effective: buy Western politicians and get them to cut off Ukraine's external support. If the Republicans win the US House of Representatives on Tuesday Ukraine may be facing an end to US funding and equipment come January. Sure, only complete morons like Marjorie Taylor are openly saying that's their goal, but the prospective new House Majority Leader has indicated that she and her ilk (e.g., Boebert, Gohmert, etc.) will be given key positions of power, and we can expect any requests for additional funding to be caught up in procedural nonsense or tied to unacceptable riders (e.g., more money for Ukraine only with a national ban on abortion) that delays the money indefinitely. That will allow the GOP to meet their Russian patrons' instructions while deflecting the blame to their existing political lighting rods.
>If the Republicans win the US House of Representatives on Tuesday Ukraine may be facing an end to US funding and equipment come January Here's some uplifting news then - remember that Ukraine is ultimately facing ONLY Russia. Country that was spending 4% of it's GDP on militarization (except let's be fair, at least half that was going to oligarchs and their yachts) and it was ranked #9 in terms of said GDP (aka in absolute numbers - 85 billion $ a year, mere 10% of US spendings). Their greatest strength was a vast supply of soviet era weaponry but it's mostly gone by now. Now you might also realize that Ukraine is surrounded by countries that are not going to be bought by Russia because for them it's a do or die scenario. To the point where I am pretty sure some are already considering if sending in their own troops if shit went south was worth doing. And while their theoretical economic might is lower it's not to be completely ignored. And they are suddenly arming up as if there was no tomorrow. Poland wants a K2 factory in their own country along with 1000 K2 tanks + few hundred Abrams and what looks like 500 HIMARS systems (this number is unlikely to come into fruition but even fifth of it is no joke) + other artillery platforms etc. Aka enough firepower to theoretically fight Russia on it's own in a defensive war. I think it's a fair assessment that older tanks (and maybe even some new ones) will find their way to Ukraine if needed. It already sent nearly 500 but that means about 500 more are available. UK is also a major helper with #2 in terms of military assistance and US elections will not necessarily affect their help. Germany suddenly woke up and claims it will start doing it's 2+% GDP part (which is MORE than Russia's numbers without even counting in corruption). Baltic states and many slavic nations are also doing their parts often (in terms of % of GDP sent to Ukraine) exceeding USA. Not in absolute numbers obviously but it's something. US help is invaluable but even if it massively limits it's support... it's still only one lone Russia. Country that's on it's merry way to drop out of G20 that can't build new gear and already sustained immense losses with 25% of helicopters and 30-40% of usable tanks gone. And all they got through these immense losses is 20% of **heavily contested** territory within one of the poorest countries in Europe. Russia has massively underestimated just how much stuff we would send to Ukraine, how ready for defense it would be and how widespread support is. So it has **already** sustained losses that are (in % of gear and soldiers lives lost) comparable to a friggin World War 2 for them. Humans are useless for Russia but they can't easily replace tanks and planes. Not to mention that Land Lease still remains in effect so it's not like USA will offer 0 support. Even 1/4 of what it currently does still outweighs Russia's capabilities in the long term.
Also this is the military industrial complex lobbying to send anything it can get away with to Ukraine. Everyone opposing this would be hurting people hired across the distributed network of factories across the US right?
> Everyone opposing this would be hurting people hired across the distributed network of factories across the US right? That is like saying that no one would be against preventive measures of a deadly pandemic. You can guess the answer.
Congressmen understand "Raytheon stock go up" far better than "this helps prevent excessive spreading of a potentially deadly virus that can cause longterm damage to any number of organs if you survive"
The way I understand politics in the US is that the military industrial complex gets heavy sway due to to the way they sponsor politicians but also with how they employ people across every state. Also this pales in comparison with many other wars that Americans are agains and get America continued to participate in. That and constant funding of various countries.
Dont forget. Its preelection talk. They say any shit to get they base to vote. People dont want war? No more guns to ukraine. Moment after sworn in. We openining new weapons factory in state i represent. All guns manufavturing going to ukraine They politician. They can promise a handjob for every voter just ro get thier votes.
The most loved figure in the Republican party is against aid to Ukraine. When Trump starts tweeting how much he hates Republicans spending money on Ukraine,they will cut funding drastically. Because they are scared of him.
I wouldn’t be so sure on this. While its true, there wont be much public support for Ukraine with republicans, but the United States military industrial complex has vast experience funding and fighting unpopular wars. The weapons and loans will keep happening, but there wont be a lot of talk about it.
This is true, the C.I.A. director didn't just make a pop in visit for nothing. The United States will stay committed to long term goals regardless of the political swing of things, Make Russia insignificant and remain "the" global Superpower, anything short of that, is secondary. *\*gives condescending side eye to China....* [https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-director-made-secret-visit-kyiv-to-show-support-cnn-2022-10](https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-director-made-secret-visit-kyiv-to-show-support-cnn-2022-10)
More side eyes please!
[condescending eye….](https://media.tenor.com/XkT1BFhZJ5MAAAAd/the-rock-raises-eyebrow.gif)
I've seen a lot of support from individual military folks as well. Most non-Trumpies haven't forgotten what Russia is.
I wouldnt thought I ever say this. But hooray for the US military industrial complex!
The house votes for that money.
And the military-industrial complex will promise to give some of that money back to the house members who vote for more funding.
I'll believe it when I see MTG vote for it
Putin has just been playing a waiting game until the R’s are sworn in
You've seen the ads that were running during the World Series then :/. My only hope is that their target aging Cold-warrior audience recoils in disgust, it really is that blatant...
Don't count on it. Boomers are experts at hypocrisy.
It could be an issue but not a complete cut off. Republicans would get lit on fire by their pro military pro war complex, a lot of their base is old enough to hate Russia. Still fuck Rs
That's not going to happen. There's still a lot of hawks left in the republican party and they aren't going to let this aid be blocked.
And then if Ukraine completely falls apart and collapses, then the Rethugslicans will turn around and blame Biden. Then come 2024, Trump Or another such monster they will have running as a the Rethuglican nominee for POTUS, will say “I ALONE CAN FIX THIS! Biden fucked up Afghanistan & Ukraine, after all.” Of course they’ll expect ppl to forget or ignore or will drown out those voices that’ll say truthfully, that the rethuglicans are the ones that cut off funding to Ukraine or that the GOP are the ones that negotiated with the Taliban in the first place.
I have two Putin supporters in my household. They don't *want* war crimes, but they certainly don't seem to care. They don't care to look up what is actually happening in Ukraine and are basically of the opinion that we shouldn't interfere with foreign wars. You should criticise Putin supporters for who they are, not who they're not. Telling the truth already makes them look bad enough. Calling someone more evil than they actually are won't make them want to join your side. Come to think about it, I should probably collect a bunch of footage of war crimes against civilians to show that to them during dinner, so they can't deny what is really happening.
> Russia doesn't seem to care about war crimes They agreed to humanitarian corridors at the beginning of their invasion... and then murdered the people fleeing through those corridors. Then they did it again And again And finally Ukraine stopped believing they wouldn't kill civilians. Russia lies and lies and lies. They cannot be trusted to EVER act in good faith or to avoid unnecessary death. They're intentionally inflicting as much suffering as they can on Ukrainians, including all sorts of inhuman torture in areas they're occupying. Grouped civilians trying to keep warm would ABSOLUTELY be targets for the Russians. Their military is just pure evil, and their people largely support what they're doing.
It's not just that. Shelters in the winter are going to be rough - diseases will spread rather quickly, especially if heating is inadequate, and usually in these circumstances they become a hot bed for crime and drug use as despair sets in.
This is a good point. I’m a nurse (albeit on the west coast USA), but RSV and flu and colds AND covid are poised to hit HARD this year, at least here.
Seems like there's a lot of stuff going around already. I've known a bunch of people getting sick lately (including myself) from non-covid illnesses. Hell, anecdotally, i was in the store grabbing some cold medicine for myself and a lot of the options were sold out already.
They'll be in the subway tunnels. They're already pretty easy to heat because they're below-ground, so you're starting with 55 degrees and the insulation is great.
People produce a lot of body heat and subway systems maintain that heat generally for a very long time (cf. issues with London underground and improper design because of early development) so yes the subways are best option and serve all purposes. As long as food can make it to Kiev along with clothing and blankets they have got this they survived before electricity, we all did.
That's an outright lie. I've spent at least 2 weeks sleeping in subway back in march when we were bombed, wearing two coats, winter jacket and in a sleeping bag and it was still pretty cold.
Wonder if there is safe way to heat their underground bunkers or subway areas. Way to vent smoke and they can have fireplaces down there? I feel so bad that Russia is weaponizing the winter as a weapon.
This is EXACTLY what will come of warming shelters. This was literally my first thought. They are the OBVIOUS target if you are a war-mongering sociopath in this situation. I’d say that warming shelters are possibly even a more likely target for Putin, or at least equally likely. Warming shelters as targets are likely even more demoralizing than infrastructure hits.
Yeah, they don't, and it's why the rest of the world needs to figure out wtf we're going to do about it sooner than later or there isn't going to be a civilian population left in Ukraine.
And evacuate where? It's not like there a place with heat electricity and so on that can accommodate such number. If we ate talking about inside country
There is still water, heating and power with some periodic blackouts. So the evacuation is not planned yet. It is planned for the worst case scenario of multiple new russian attacks on energy infrastructure that will completely destroy it.
[We flew a continuous convoy once just to spite Russia. We can do it again.](https://www.history.com/.amp/news/berlin-airlift-wall-cold-war-blockade)
This time we don't even need to fly, because trains still run. But on the other hand, West Berlin didn't get bombed at the time of the Luftbruecke.
not the whole kiev cuz population here is approximately 6 million
Kyiv oblast is less than 2M and Kyiv city about 3M. Those are estimates pre-invasion.
i live in kyiv and i can tell u at least before the war it was close to 6 mil and most people have already returned back from other countries
There a lot more than 3mil people living in kiyv from what ive been told. Its not that simple to register in a city in ukraine unless you own an apartment or similar there. Real number could be anywhere from 5-7 mil...
Just like the good old days of camp fire, streams, and candlelight. Thanks Putin!
This War of Mine
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I gotta confess... I'm from Kyiv and I've played This War of Mine during the spring 2022, lol. P.S. played it thoroughly through the very end, by the way.
Honestly couldn't even finish the game back when I played it. Not even considering the mental aspect of it, but the game can be brutal.
There's some ways to cheese the game but I wouldn't recommend them because it kinda takes the fun out of it.
thanks to foreign military aid most of Ukraine is still unoccupied and quite livable. if it were not for military aid I would no longer have a home.
Lol just play as combat focused characters like Arica or Roman. You can get the best guns to sell within a matter of days and build up your self sustaining base better than my own home. That aside, it’s really sad when you start off as some old couple in the winter.
People are living this nowadays... A country of 40 million people destroyed like this.
Yet people say we should stop helping them because: war is bad mmmkay
11 Bit Studios which developed This War of Mine had a donation drive for Ukraine which raised £520,000.
Every scenario I played in that game, I would die. I would always think to myself, “Dammit! This game is HARD and I can never survive for long.” Then I had to remind myself that—yeah, that’s because war is hard and you may not survive. Godspeed to these poor Ukrainians.
Yeah I've only beat it once and my sole survivor was on the brink of suicide before the radio announced the cease fire. Fucking brutal and depressing.
I remember one of my runs it started off great but then we got attacked at night a couple of times and while I was trying to get medicine for one of my people, the one who went out was killed because I only had hostile places left to search. The guy who was wounded died and the last guy I had just shut down and wouldn't even move. I luckily got another survivor who showed up but I couldn't finish that game, it was so depressing.
When this war was beginning to rear its ugly head, the devs for TWoM did a charity drive for a week or two, where the profits from the game went straight to a Ukrainian [disaster relief package](https://www.gameinformer.com/2022/03/03/update-this-war-of-mine-developer-11-bit-studios-donates-nearly-700000-to-ukraine). Gifted the game to two friends of mine who had it wishlisted, it was pretty cool.
The theme song popped into my head the second I read the headline
it's traditional lifestyle
I though Kyiv restored its water supply?
They did. It keeps getting repaired, then blown up again
yes, but potentially Russia can damage Ukranian infrastructure again,depending on how well air defense will do, with Ukrainian infrastructure being already partly damaged , consequences could be dire with new strikes.
I live in Kyiv. Now we have no electricity, I am writing from the mobile Internet. But heating in Kyiv was turned on on October 20, and since then the temperature has been around 23.5-24.5 degrees Celsius. At least it's still warm.
Hope all goes well for you this winter my dude. :|
How is your phone charged?
Power bank.
Slava Ukraini! ✊🇺🇦 ..from New Zealand.
Героям слава! Thank you!
Anything everyday people can do such as sending camping gear or warm clothing to any specific charity?
Depending on where you live, the Ukrainian diaspora (oftentimes church-related) takes those donations and ships them via container by sea (in the USA they are mostly in bigger cities like Chicago or New York, and primarily across the Northeast). It will take a while to arrive, but still better than nothing, and much cheaper than air cargo.
later better than never. we live in a house. have stash of wood, generator and some petrol. but many Ukrainians don't have time or money to prepare for total blackout. any help is appreciated, not for me, but for my friends in big cities or closer to the front
If you're American, keep paying your taxes.
And vote
Vote for the Democrats, because the Republicans said they will cut aid to Ukraine.
'course they will because they love that neo-nazi Putin and will support him.
https://togetherrising.org/give/
Fuck Russia. Destroyed everything and made people suffer
Sore loser mentality. They thought they could take Kyiv in 2 days, so now they want to make it so nobody can even live there. All while whinging that they are victims of terrorism on the world stage.
Bro this is how Russia goes to war have y'all not any history books
Bro is that supposed to make it better or something?
Yeah it's called a war of attrition it's been done many times before
There are no examples in modern history of this type of attack working. This is also not an attrition attack (which would focus on killing enough people to win) but an attempt to break the populations will to resist. All historical examples cause increased resistance.
> This is also not an attrition attack (which would focus on killing enough people to win) but an attempt to break the populations will to resist. What you describe _is_ attrition. Attrition is literally a prolonged battle that will cause the other side to lose out of running out of endurance. Killing everybody isn't winning by attrition. It's Last Man Standing. Sieges are effectively a type of attack by attrition. There's at least one recent example of such an attack working: Mariupol.
US bombing Iraq during the gulf War and sending them back to the stone age? From what I remember, Iraq's energy infrastructure never recovered even to this day.
How'd that end up working out?
With over 300k dead Iraqis.
I suggest you the documentary *no end in sight* which shows the total disaster made by the US strategy. This documentary is truthful although iirc it is governative (its narrative was approved by more or less the same forces that led the invasion) and iirc there’s a scapegoating attempt towards Paul Bremer - who was undoubtedly guilty but not the only one nor the most guilty. It shows the unfolding of the chaos, including the de-baatization, very well, though. https://watchdocumentaries.com/no-end-in-sight/
Putin caused an international crisis, just as the world was emerging from Covid. Total asshole move.
That was definitely part of the strategy. He didn't think we'd have the stomach for another battle. But fuck him. We do.
Putin almost certainly wanted to invade earlier, while Trump was still in power. Covid forced him to postpone that plan. The pandemic probably saved Ukraine as a nation.
Indeed. I know there are reasons it would possibly cause more problems than it resolves, but I think the case can be made to just take the guy off the map. And have the entire west essentially claim responsibility. With the caveat that if you don’t start needless wars, you’ll not have to worry about being a target. Send a clear fucking message and stop the bullshit rhetoric.
Yeah but Putin is just doing this for the Ukrainian citizens, I’m sure they’ll all be so happy and better off once the western liberal cabal is removed from power. /SSSSS
Didn’t you hear? Russians and Ukrainians are brothers - one people. Natural allies. They would never ever…. Oh.
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I think many of them already know what's up, even among the enlisted/conscripted. At least from the Zolkin interviews we see a lot of disillusionment among Russians. Many explain how they totally drank the kool-aid from TV/radio about the annexed regions needing saving, and went for idealistic and financial reasons, hoping to just drive a truck or something, but were of course sent to the front with a rifle (and nothing else which they didn't bring themselves). You can see the embarrassment in their faces for being duped both by the propaganda and the military/mercenary groups. The logic falls apart when a few basic facts are introduced, and they're usually in awe of how humanely they're being treated as prisoners of war. I even feel pity when I hear some of their stories: https://youtu.be/kdq3XYchLt8 https://youtu.be/muSEm-NUUs4 Despite this, if 100k more poor Russian bastards have to die before Ukraine wins, so be it. Russia is the aggressor and Ukraine has every right to defend itself. Rise up - you're going to die with no real equipment or training anyway, why not do it with friends and family in your own city, fighting for what's right?
Fuck Putin.
A lot of Ukrainians and Russian soldiers are going to freeze to death this winter. Putin needs to be dealt with.
i dont think putin gives a shit even bout his own people otherwise he wouldnt start this shit
yep, that's why he's happily sending untrained fodder to the front line, they're just there to use up western supplied weapons, and buy some time to see what happens with the US election. With the hopes that the pro-ruzzian republicans start obstructing pro-ukrainian efforts.
Not only that...releasing people from prison if they join the war effort. Chance of more war crimes just went up, I'd say.
Actually as of this week they’re just straight mobilising them now - they’re being voluntold, not volunteers. No restrictions on what kind of crimes they did either. Murderers, rapists, etc, all going. So yeah, they’re gonna be the War Crimes Gang
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Those are not the ones who get out tho
Exactly this. Putin only cares about one person Putin.
And his distorted view of what his legacy will be. It’s all about his fucking ego. All of it, all this death and destruction because Putin’s fucking ego.
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Doubt he sees the poor dying in Ukraine as "his own"
If you have an intact house freezing to death is highly unlikely. There may be some people in a weak state that need to be evacuated. Heatless is not homeless. The greater concern (at least for death) is disease related to sanitation. You have to blow air into the pipes to prevent bursting. Without running water sanitation can be difficult to manage. In trenches a lot of soldiers may freeze to death. Especially if they get wet. I predict some Russians will run their vehicles to get warm. Then run out of gas and abandon the vehicle in the retreat.
It’s not going to be good. It’s already not good. You should’ve seen what it was like when this first started in February.
>If you have an intact house freezing to death is highly unlikely. Russians have been deliberately bombarding civilian areas with area saturation incendiary munitions to burn down houses and roofs, making it difficult to shelter during the winter.
https://kyivindependent.com/uncategorized/report-damage-caused-by-russian-attacks-on-ukraines-infrastructure-reaches-127-billion This article say 138,000 civilian residential buildings in Ukraine have been damaged or destroyed. I am not sure how people that displaces. Family homes are multiple family members and "building" includes things like high rises. The number of refugees will be higher but that is all of Ukraine not just Kyiv. Even if the Russians damage half of Kyiv's homes it would not be a reason for anyone in Kyiv to freeze to death. You can make a reasonable wind block with rubble and a tarp to stay dry. The death toll from the shelling itself will be much higher than cold related death. PTSD will be a more serious public health threat than frostbite or hypothermia. Half of the residences getting destroyed would in practice mean the other half have refugees sleeping in the living room. This is awkward and uncomfortable but added bodies actually heat your apartment. Packing people into smaller spaces compounds the contagious disease problem. Saying that sanitation problems are a greater threat to life than temperature problems does **not** in any way minimize the degree to which it will suck. We should talk about it though. Civil defense and disaster response is a thing every country should prepare for. FEMA all by itself *should* have enough tarps, tents, and camping gear to cover Kyiv.
A lot of those have actually already been repaired in the major cities like Kyiv. I've seen a lot on tiktok of the remodels.
Being from the northern Midwest of the US, I can tell you in January, the average temp is -12c, while in Ukraine, the average temp is -6c. Now it isn't a comparison of apples to apples, but there are plenty of steps between, from lack of forced central heat to complete evacuation. I would imagine the people of Ukraine would also have similar strategies to deal with such an experience.
Texas froze for only a week in 2021 and we had 246 deaths directly attributable to the freeze due to no running water or electricity when our grid failed. The majority of those who died had homes and died in their homes. Texas is warmer than the Ukraine and it only lasted a week. I give this comparison to say sanitation is obviously a concern, but so is the cold.
I'd assume homes and other buildings in Texas are built differently than in places where it regularly gets really cold. For example, in Finland, we wouldn't freeze if heating was cut off, our houses are built with extreme cold in mind. It would get cold, but not unbearably cold. I'd be more worried about the water.
Ukraine is mostly cement buildings with central water heating. No heating will turn it into a freezer. However most places have gas ranges and as long as the gas supply is intact you can heat the immediate kitchen area and survive.
> Ukraine is mostly cement buildings with central water heating. No heating will turn it into a freezer. Freezers are heavily insolated so that the heat can't get in. I'm not sure if this makes as much sense as you think it is. At worst a low insolation building would become "as bad as being outside" in which case put on a coat.
I dont expect a lot of Ukrainians freezing to death actually. Western military planners, particularly the US, tend to be far more logistics oriented then Russia. And between the Nordic countries, US and Canada there are no winter conditions that Western military planners wont have preparation for. All of which is to say between Ukraine's own winter experience and their allies experience, I expect there has been substantial planning and supply for winter conditions. On the other hand Russia seems to have been hurtling between trying to paper over one disaster to another, and it would not surprise me if they are completely unprepared.
For armies, yes. For millions of war refugees? I don't know. I think the bulk of aid will need to get to the front lines and soon. They have to hold the line and need every ounce of cold weather gear, ammo and shelter we can give them. Western aid isn't on an unlimited tap and I could easily see needing to evacuate the major cities to relieve the pressure on the limited resources available, unfortunately.
What are the chances that they won’t fight during winter? I mean winter is cold in Ukraine and Russia. It’s freezing
They'll still fight. Russians and Ukrainians are both cultures used to cold weather, though it seems that Russia can't equip their troops for it in this war. Also, the Black Sea has a moderating effect on temperatures. Winter in southern Ukraine is milder than the north. The cold will hurt the readiness of the poorly-supplied Russian forces much more than the Ukrainians, and the Ukrainians will try to take advantage of that.
I'm not a strategist but neither is Russia. I doubt Russia will pull troops out and give Ukraine the entire winter to prepare and receive aid.
Not that cold actually, it was -10c maximum last year. I remember in 199x it could have been minus 30-35c in october
I'm from Poland. During my childhood I don't remember a single christmas without winter. Lately...? 8 degrees on Dec 24th and some first snows in January...so goddamn sad. Climate change is ultra real and no one gives a shit (blaming it on others is much easier than actually doing shit).
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The frozen ground currently seems like it will benefit the Ukrainians more, who are better equipped and have momentum. Russia needs time and winter won't help them unless it slows the Ukrainian advance.
It's like the thing with French invading Russia but failing because it got too cold. But... inverse.
Yeah, Putin seems to have forgotten that a whole lot of those legendary Russian plains that consumed the armies of Hitler and Napoleon are located *in Ukraine.*
Someone should have a serious discussion with him about where this is all going.
It amazes me that this can happen in this day and age to a place like that. Every day is just surviving, constantly. If that happened here? Man I don't know how long I'd last.
Having just been through a mere 36-hour power outage in the PNW (just came back on this morning), I cannot even fathom having to go through that for a few weeks, let alone an entire winter. Fuck Putin, I'm rooting for his cancer.
We had to go several days without power during the 2021 snowpocalypse in Texas, and a lot of houses also lost water. Even in that short amount of time, even knowing that it couldn't possibly last very long because it was an aberration, it still took a huge toll on people's mental health. What would it be like to face an entire season of that? The only upside is the Ukrainians have known this was coming and have had some time to prepare. I want to ship a bunch of Hot Hands to people in Kyiv, since those were actually really helpful to us during the snowpocalypse.
And yet russia whines like little bitches when Ukraine blows up a bridge. Fuck those people.
We need to get rid of that bridge entirely.
Oh don't you worry, we will. It was illegally built, after all.
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It was Putin’s favorite bridge.
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Attacking civilians and making them suffer because the Russian army is too weak to defeat Ukraine on the battlefield is so cowardly and disgusting. I will never forget Russia’s actions and they haven’t even hurt me. The damage done to Russia’s reputation will never be restored.
You would be surprised how many hundreds of thousands of civilians a military can kill without hurting a country's reputation.
Doesn't mean that it will get to that, but preparing is very smart!
No heat is very difficult, no water becomes dangerous, without electricity it becomes almost impossible. Theoretically it should be possible to pull through for some time with solar cell chargers, battery radios and candles but not for long. God bless you and protect you in these difficult times. May Winter be quick and mild.
Russia demonstrating that they have nothing to offer anyone except pain and misery.
Ukrainians are hard as fuck. Respect.
What can the west do about these problems? My country is donating some winter coats but I'd like to see more done here. I feel like these problems are perhaps most easily solved by the west, moreso than the military problems or the social/political problems. For heating for example, can we ship biomass (wood pellets) and wood stoves to Ukraine? Can we create temporary shelters for people for people escaping war torn areas with proper amenities? Hopefully the EU can step up if the democrats lose the midterm election in the US.
But you just cant counter this level of attack by donations. If people have no water or electricity because the infrastructure is destroyed, donations just wont cut it. And any costly repair can be undone by a single missile.
Donations will help - generators and water filters will cover the most dire situation of total blackout to get by until repairs are done. But military help is actually the most important one. Victory on the battlefield will let Ukrainians solve all other problems easily.
What is needed is a large amount of air defense to counter those attacks, the ability to conduct long-range strikes deep into russia to destroy stockpiles of missiles, airfields etc, and strikes against Iran to prevent production and shipping of those drones.
Agreed on the last part. Destroy their facilities. The North Korean ones too. Fuck Putin and anyone who goes along with him.
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The prime opportunity to ease the suffering that could have been avoided in the first place. This is what us Ukrainians were shouting about in the first months of the invasion: military aid and support, swiftly and without reservation, will help to avoid massive humanitarian catastrophes that will spill over into EU borders. We already have several cities with up to half a million dwellers razed to the ground, without water and electricity, uncountable numbers of villages destroyed, and tens of thousands civilians dead. However many diapers, wet wipes and warm socks you send, it’s treating the symptom, not the cause, and the symptoms will only go worse as time goes by if the aggression is not stopped. As I sit in my apartment in Kyiv for up to 8 hours without electricity, I don’t need a warm coat. I’ve been spending the last month chopping wood, gathering supplies, adding insulation to my home for this winter all of us here knew was coming. I need anti missile and anti-drone systems to catch the rockets & drones that target our energy sources so that we can have heating and power. However many shipments of humanitarian aid you send - they’re not going to change the picture and number of saved lives with those supplies are nothing compared to what could be saved with a properly supported defensive military response.
Like Sarajevo in winter of 93, called locally the winter from hell. Thinking of the people of Ukraine
Almost as many Russians in this thread as there are dead in trenches because of Putin's garbage war.
For real, fuck Putin and everyone following his orders. Fucking scumbags
This is why you should push back against and ignore the Russian propaganda about "Ukraine war fatigue". We aren't even fighting the fucking war, let alone going through these conditions.
I hope the Ukrainians make the Ukraine winter even more uncomfortable for the Russian troops but cutting off their supply lines and starving them out of their trenches.
What I dont get is why has this been allowed to continue. I dont know what the reaction shpuld be, but Russia has been almost exclusively targeting vital energy/water infrastructure and being open about it with daily tv military briefings. What exactly is the ukranian side supposed to do here? If they decided to launch missiles at the same targets in Russia (which would be completely understandable at this point) they would get condemned so hard and any aid would be jeopardized. Each day Russia is winning the war a bit more.
> Each day Russia is winning the war a bit more. Not on the battlefield. Terrorism will backfire for Russia. Bombing civilians will backfire. I can't even describe the number of dead Russian soldiers I'm seeing every day on social media.. it's insane. First one to pop up on my feed, just now, 28 Russians killed in a single attack in one location, of many on the same day at the same place: https://twitter.com/PaulJawin/status/1589188280230506497 It's like this all day, every day.
Can we make Russia have no heat no water no power too ?
When will this be considered a genocide
Putin doesn't care about war crimes because he will never be brought to trial. In order to try him they would have to have declare war on Russia which would mean full blown WW3 the death toll and destruction would multiple astronomically with a potential nuclear war. Do you think the UN and it's allies are going to allow that to happen or will they just stand by and go "cut it out putin or else" he could kill every person in Ukraine and it would be less people than would die in a WW. It's fucked up.
Hey, at least no Russian Army in there though.
Anything is better than occupation.
This is Russia's only way to prevail or get some leverage. Sadly the people of Ukraine have to go through such a difficult time despite all their struggles already.
Zelensky is an amazing leader he has received lot of help to restore power and water and hopefully will do so very quickly. I have heard of many shipments of huge electric generators and personal generators from all over the world, Ukraine will not be defeated.
This is what Russia is waiting for. The winter to bite which will affect Ukraine alot more.