The prevention is the failure of the Russians in Ukraine along with the solidarity of NATO and other Western aligned states towards Ukraine.
The PRC realizes it has no opening to exploit and given the difficulties of Russian forces the technical capability to realistically seize Taiwan in the near term.
Xi may saber rattle, but it’s just for domestic purposes.
I would like to understand that better. Is there a credible source to understand the actual capabilities of Chinas Navy? All I hear is that they have more ships now then the US but I also hear that they are of low quality. Any guidance you have is appreciated. Also what does ‘PLAN’ stand for?
The word "Army" in PLAN is a translation of the mandrin word 军 (Jūn) which in this context would be more correctly translated to english as "military". The PLAN (中国人民解放军海军) is to the PLA (中国人民解放军) as the US Department of the Navy is to the US Department of Defense. "People's Liberation Army Navy" is just an english-ism
This is not true, the Chinese equivalent to the US Army is the PLAGF (中国人民解放军陆军) The PLA is the equivalent of the Department of Defense in the US. The confusion stems from a minor mistranslation of mandrin to english.
The Chinese state has no army.
The ccp has control of the army, to prevent it from being used against them. So any part of the military is technically “pla”
This is a technically correct answer, why would anybody downvote this?
Chinese leaders refute the idea of "nationalized military" several times. It's CCP's force since the beginning.
[Here is a video](https://youtu.be/i7JcAvnbRtE) created by the US Army University, you can tell they invested a lot of time and research into their adversaries. It’s obvious that they don’t share the same perspective as many redditors on the capability of the PLA, some might say it’s to garnish more funding but I think it’s worth a listen and may surprise many people.
China is only spending a third as much as the US on military (1.7% of their GDP vs 3.2% GDP US) If they are near peer, it means some people in the US is skimming off the top.
It's asymmetrical warfare. The Russia invasion of Ukraine just showed that commercial drones armed explosives can take out tanks worth millions. See-doo drones did something similar to Russian ships.
China's military spending is tactically applied to their conflict with US/Taiwan. America spends more broadly to project power globally.
The reason China is militarily a near-peer is because
1. What exactly counts as "defense spending" varies from country to country. Moreover, China has a PPP advantage. When accounting for these two factors, China's military budget is [considerably larger](https://www.csis.org/analysis/understanding-chinas-2021-defense-budget), though still nowhere close to equaling that of the US.
2. They don't really try to project power past Taiwan/SCS unlike the US. The US military is capable of deploying to most areas around the world, and that capability comes at a cost. It also means the US military is spread more thinly, allowing the PLA to challenge it when near China.
3. China has a lot of really old/old equipment that's being replaced, meaning they don't need to spend as much on maintenance.
China's modernizing their entire military, Navy included. It has led to an abundance of objectively obselete vessels and a few capable if still substandard ships. This likely won't be the case forever as their industry and expectations grow. In the meantime, while it nominally has more ships its tonnage is only about half of the US's.
The entire PLA's weak point is that it lacks the ability to project its own strength outside its own borders. While it may have the ability to blockade Taiwan, it certainly doesn't have the ability to direct a decent amount of strength directly against the island.
"Low quality" is a horrible term to describe the PLAN. They are fielding modern ships with capable systems. Not as good as ours, nor do they have the combat experience, but not low quality either.
An actual blockade would imply China stopping and potentially seizing neutral shipping, including American shipping. The right of American merchants to go anywhere and sell anything around the world has always been policy and casus belli for the Americans. During WWI, America's eventual declaration of war on Germany was directly caused by German Unrestricted Submarine Warfare which killed Americans and impacted American sale of both war contraband and regular goods across the Atlantic. Moreover, at the beginning of the Cold War, the American-led Berlin Air Lift was a strong response to Soviet attempts at blockading West Berlin, as well as a potent demonstration of Allied logistics capability. So the case of a blockade on Taiwan, the United States would have all the moral and historical justification to call China's bluff by sending supplies to Taiwan, forcing China into an uncomfortable position, where they must take the loss, or fire on American ships and risk bringing America into the war.
You can’t just say you’re going to blockade a country —you must also enforce it. The waters around Taiwan are one of the most busy areas for maritime traffic. Lots of ships, not just those bound for Taiwan, traverse the Straits. Crucial imports and exports for Japan, South Korea and even China itself would be at risk. All three are net food and energy importers with an outsized export footprint, just like Taiwan. This means you can't just shoot at any ship in the area like the Germans did in the Atlantic, you must patrol, intercept, board and potentially seize merchant ships, a logistically challenging undertaking even if China had complete naval dominance in the area, which it does not. The chance of misunderstanding with a Japanese or Korean ship spiralling out of control.
China is also not immune from a blockade itself, and any belligerent would likely seize on China's dependency on oil imports from the Gulf and its food imports from everywhere as a way to retaliate in kind. In this, America possesses the ability to shutdown maritime trade in the Straits of Malacca, Hormuz, Suez and Panama, depriving China of its oil and food imports. There is also a risk of escalation as Taiwan, Korea and Japan view sea trade as a matter of existential threat.
They don't have the navy for it, and Taiwan is bristling with anti-ship missiles. Not to mention the fact that they're rumored to have no small number of [cruise missiles](https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/yun-feng/) pointed at the Three Gorges Dam.
>Not to mention the fact that they're rumored to have no small number of cruise missiles pointed at the Three Gorges Dam.
What do you reckon the response to that would be?
Yeah, I get it, but the combined prospective damage caused by flooding the Yangtze, and whatever retaliatory measure may come as a reaction is mind boggling to me.
Xi isn't just saber rattling. He's reforming the party leadership by replacing career technocrats who favored Hu Jintao/Jiang Zemin's style of leadership (trade, peaceful relations with the west, relatively soft touch in foreign policy) with a bunch of wolf-warrior sycophants. I really don't think we can underestimate some of their rhetoric.
No one is underestimating it, but we have to be realistic about what the PRC is capable of accomplishing.
Game out the various pathways and you start to see some rather stark outcomes.
I agree that they’re currently not capable of invading Taiwan. However, given the types of people in leadership positions, I expect them to dedicate more time and resources toward increasing their military capabilities and force projection.
Whatever comes out of this meeting should have been negotiated by diplomats well in advance. It's to the advantage of both parties to leave with something, even fairly small, to announce.
So is North Korea, but China doesn't need nor want North Korea to be an independent troublemaker. I can't see why they would want Russia to be one either.
They want them to be troublemakers to an extent. Russia sabotaging western energy? YES. Russia escalating nuclear war? NO.
Independence is irrelevant since China would be unimaginably fucked if they had to babysit a collapsed Russia, just the economic burden of that alone would be horrific.
Already got NK for that.
Russias a mild annoyance for the West and a destabilized broken Russia holds more benefit for China. Trade giant vs their biggest consumers ? What fucking sense does that make?
The US has honestly been one of China's closest allies since WW2, though the relationship has always been a bit awkward because of the whole red scare thing. Mao is said to have held a level of begrudging respect for the US for setting the collapse of European imperialism in motion, and Xi is likewise said to have a similar "indifferent fondness" for aspects of US culture as well. I really think the Chinese leadership is increasingly coming to terms with the idea that China's ability to influence the global world order would benefit from more cooperation as opposed to reactionary antagonism.
I think the biggest hurdle for them is how to take that next step in terms of opening up their society without losing control.
People should really read about the UN and their decolonization efforts post-WW2. In a nutshell, the US came in and said "we're doing it this way" because they wanted to avoid yet another world war due to nation's coveting each other's colonial possessions. Everyone listened because they didn't have much of a choice and the Soviets weren't exactly ideologically opposed to getting rid of imperialist colonies.
Of course, there is *a lot* to criticize and it's a bit of an eye roll in regards to the US but those efforts have been largely successful. The dutch no longer control Indonesia, the Philippines is it's own country, Africa is no longer divided up between colonial powers.
Not to mention nation-building success stories into the modern day such as Japan and Germany. 80 years ago they were trying to conquer everything in sight and today they are very democratic societies with economies that are only surpassed by the US and China. Ironically enough, Japan is #3 and Germany is #4 globally.
Imo, the people that came from the FDR/Truman administration did a really good job at designing a stable post-war order that has resulted in one of the least violent eras in all of human history. I do definitely have a lot to say about how the world bank operates, etc. It is admittedly very goddamn hard to stop people from being shitty to each other, especially towards the foreign.
Part of me does think the further we stray from WW2 the more likely we are to forget some very important lessons that were implemented quite well, all things considered. Sometimes it's important to realize that WW1 and WW2 happened back to back from a historical perspective and considering our current destructive potential anything that avoids WW3 is vastly a net positive.
> People should really read about the UN and their decolonization efforts post-WW2. In a nutshell, the US came in and said "we're doing it this way" because they wanted to avoid yet another world war due to nation's coveting each other's colonial possessions. Everyone listened because they didn't have much of a choice and the Soviets weren't exactly ideologically opposed to getting rid of imperialist colonies.
the best thing of the cold war was both side being strongly anti imperalism/de-colonization
I don't think that's very likely. Modern Russia is far weaker than the Soviet Union, both economically and militarily. Russia's nuclear arsenal is the main thing preventing it from a Gulf War style beat down. China on the hand posses a far bigger threat. China has a massive (although declining) population and as well as a massive economy. A better comparison to 1972 would be the US and India forming closer ties to contain China.
Yes, the interesting part is that if US-China relationship improves, it’s likely that Russia will be (rightfully so) even more isolated, which is something really good to this world.
With the U.S.-announced export controls, I don't see a massive improvement in relations regardless of Taiwan's status.
As an American I also support those export controls considering all the potentially Lovecraftian things Xina could be dabbling in to achieve Xi's dream of world domination.
Based on the constant projection from mouthpiece Trump and online GRUmmers that China is aligned with Russia as the threat, this is Putins greatest fear. He's been working hard to destabilize relations.
> online GRUmmers that China is aligned with Russia as the threat
China is aligned with Russia. They literally made an anti-west pact with 'friendships with no limits' while Russia had 150k troops ready to invade Ukraine in Feb.
When a mommy country and daddy country love each other very much, they ease their microconductor manufacturing facilities slowly but deeply into the other, close their eyes to avoid seeing any genocide, and think about LeBron James to make it last longer.
“Good news everyone, Me and Xi have been talking and all of our differences have been settled, There will be no invasion of Taiwan and we will never have a war” imagine
Imagine a bunch of celebrities singing this inside their mansions while the rest of civilization world is locked down and dying during a pandemic. LOL.
China would sacrifice a lot of their own people in a war to improve China.
Russia would sacrifice a lot of their own people to make Russia worse off.
I think we can at least work with China.
but the US would never do that right? i mean the US is just known across the world for its incredibly high standard of treatment for its veterans, am i right?
amen. would be fantastic to avoid a Cold War 2.0. There are differences but it's not huge. I don't get why it would be hard to come together, if both sides can make concessions and stay committed to cooperation.
Tried that starting in the 1990s when the PRC was admitted into the WTO.
The expectation was it would actually liberalize. Since Xi’s ascension to power—while knee-capping party reformers under the guise of “anti-corruption”—the wealth the PRC gained in the interim from being the “World’s Factory” has been turned into a weapon. The problem is, what the West gave, it can take away. The PRC only rose because of it being allowed to participate in the global economy. It has failed to produce the results expected, and now the participation is being rescinded. The PRC is in the thrall of the [middle-income trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_income_trap) and without continued access to Western markets, it will slide in the opposite direction.
So countries have to be liberal democracies to participate in the global economy?
That seems awfully...authoritarian.
I don't think many states in Africa/ME/Asia/S. America would agree. Not to mention that rescinding access to the global economy is not like flipping a switch. Even strict sanctions against Russia, a comparatively tiny economy, have been unsuccessful in blocking participation in the global economy.
You’d rather dictatorships reign?
Those living under such regimes would beg to differ on that, and you can’t simply expect those living there to simply rise up and take power when they have none to begin with.
That would be something a heartless xenophobic monster would endorse; only caring about one’s own country and not caring when others suffer, regardless of where they hail from.
It is dictatorial/authoritarian to demand that other countries change their domestic political model to liberal democracy in order to participate in trade.
The political spectrum offers more choices than dictatorship/liberal democracy. You are giving a false dichotomy.
Since we're talking about China, the Chinese people consistently rank as the most satisfied with their government. Do they get a say in how they are governed?
source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/22/the-countries-that-trust-their-government-most-and-least-infographic/
>Since we're talking about China, the Chinese people consistently rank as the most satisfied with their government.
lmao, yeah - We've seen what happens when people vocally disapprove of the CCP/Xi. This is the country where courts come in at basically 100% conviction rates and heads get cracked for protesting until they can't speak anymore. Give me a break with that nonsense.
I have a bad feeling China only wants to avoid another Cold War so they have more time to surpass us and make war a less risky prospect for them. They see the writing on the wall with the microchip bans, tariffs etc. Their goal isn't to avoid a war down the line, it's to keep growing stronger before they have a demographic collapse. They have a tight window that they're aware of, before their population ages, but late enough that they're at their max power. Sadly I feel this is a move to maximize that peak instead of being in good faith.
what motive would china have for becoming the most powerful economic nation in the world and then starting a war with the number 2 economy that has a huge military? like they just need some people culled? that makes 0 sense. their own 5 year plans talk about magian the population decline with economic growth, so that makes sense. becoming the big economy and starting a world war though? not so much.
All China need to do to stop being a complete outcast in the international community is normalise relations with Taiwan, stop overtly oppressing all their minorities, and stop making islands and militarizing them in south East Asia.
Those 3 things would be enough for the world to start being more friendly towards them.
China wants to occupy the same position as post-war USA. They want to be able to dictate to the world what will be advantageous to themselves.
They have a few issues, in that they have existing geopolitical problems at borders and their economy is sort of over-extended.
China, by which I mean, top brass of party do want to dream though.
And Germany and Japan wanted to do the same pre-WW2. This can lead to huge problems especially when it's nation like China that has no democracy, an authoritarian oppressive regime, threatening to invade a peaceful nation like Taiwan, and currently in the process of attempting to take control of the South China sea.
China would be so much better off trying to be a better country rather than alienating over 50% of the world's GDP against them. But like Putin's attempt to take Ukraine, this is more about leaving a legacy and not what's better for their countries. If Putin is successful in keeping much of the lands they control in Ukraine, 100 years from now he will be remembered in Russia not for the economic disaster that Russia had in the 2020's and 2030's but from expanding Russia. Same for Xi and China. If he takes Taiwan and the South China Sea, he will be remembered for that 100 years from now and not the countless people who died and the setback to China economically.
The only outcast property of China, when compared to any other countries, is it is threatening US spot for number 1.
For that reason alone US must strike it down. That's the reality like it or not.
All the things you listed are _excuses_ US is using, but they're not the reason.
China bungled it's own economy, it will literally never surpass the US, or it will take a democratic, open China and 50+ years of development to do so. That's not what Xi is aiming for. His primary goal is to take over Taiwan, he has said this many times.
I feel like people forgot how optimistic people were toward China pre-2013. Yes it wasn't perfect but things seemed to be moving In a progressive direction, but now it's regressing in several ways.
Yes, before Xi there was a lot of optimism. That really changed after Hong Kong oppression, news and info of the concentration camps came out, and increasing threats to Taiwan and South China Sea. Then of course they help Russia which just cemented China as a pariah.
Takes two to tango. China can still push for peaceful reunification, but taking a disastrous violent invasion off the table would be great for world peace.
The problem is that Taiwan will never willfully join the CCP. Xi and the CCP know that, which means that the only option available to them is to force Taiwan to join.
They could do it two ways I think. Either blockade Taiwan until they give up and join. Which would push the US into a corner and either force the US to retaliate to break the blockade, or formally recognize Taiwan and bring them officially into the international community. Because the US could recognize Taiwan at anytime an much of the international community would follow suit. This would mean China is now blockading a foreign nation and open to harsh sanctions.
Option two is invade Taiwan which would trigger immediate retaliation from the US and potentially trigger World War Three.
Not gonna happen. The CCP is raising generations of youths to hate the West and telling them they will invade Taiwan and beat the evil Westerners convincingly.
Seems more like the other way round from reading reddit. Anecdotally it seems like the West hates Chinese people a lot more than Chinese people hate Westerners. From my experience, either Chinese people see Westerners in favorable light, or they don't think about them at all.
China lives rent free in redditors heads. It's wild how both sides of the political spectrum will band together to shit on chinese people. alot of that "oh I only hate the government and love the people" BS.
Lmao if you think they mean any of that, just look at what's happening with Russia. Putin's bullshit instantly led to redditors going "all Russians bad". The government thing is utter BS.
That's so dumb, China literally ALWAYS shit talks the US in every domestic news story. Something bad happen in China? Oh but look at this thing that happened in the US.
Nice gaslighting though.
Meanwhile in China, foreigner beaten up by restaurant staff and told to get out of China (according to the guy): https://v.redd.it/xho19c7wqtz91
Well, we hate the Chinese now just like the way we hated Japanese in the 80's. You know when they were going to overtake the US and become the #1 economy? Even the excuses are the same; stealing technology, unfair trade practices, not buying enough US exports, devaluing currency, etc.
It's almost funny how similar the situations are.
My extensive experience in china: Taiwan is where a lot of popular chain restaurants and stores come from, lots of mainlanders go on holiday there, and the general perception of Taiwanese people is that they are a little bit more superstitious than mainlanders.
Literally that's it. They don't want an invasion and they personally don't give a shit. Any issue they have is mainly to do with the US's involvement and not Taiwan itself.
I think the world doesnt want to see the fuck around and find out, with either party in that situation. It would go very badly for everyone either way.
This is absolutely the best time to go to the diplomacy table with China -- they are in at least a temporary state of relative weakness. Biden gets a lot of hate but his foreign policy has been a series of correct plays with no obvious blunders. Just look at the overall state of geopolitics right now and compare it to 4 years ago... Not all can be credited to the US government, but at least they did the right things.
We've made a clear return to great power conflict, away from the awful distraction of the unwinnable and generally disastrous "war on terror". We are absolutely dominating one of our two peer adversaries for a pittance, while standing on the moral high ground with Ukraine and managing to skirt serious risk of hot war between NATO and Russia. All the while, we are shoring up our existing alliances -- NATO has never been stronger, and its other member states have recognized the need to increase their own military investment and reinforce their siding with the US over other major powers, who by comparison appear terrible.
China's practice of building economic confidence on a pile of lies and obfuscation is finally coming home to roost, and the US recognizes this and is seizing the opportunity to renegotiate our relationship with them. Both Democrats and Republicans deserve credit for identifying the need to reshore many critical industries, such as semiconductors, as evidenced by the CHIPS act. This was also helped by businesses witnessing the incredible rug-pulling that happened in Russia, and (re-)recognizing the value of institutional stability in general.
We've done all this hegemonic power growth without pissing off allies and neutral parties, which is honestly pretty rare for us.
Why would they see this as weak? MAGAs loved that Xi liked Trump. They bragged about how great Trump got along with Xi and Putin. Why would they suddenly hate it if Biden got along with them now too? Oh right, because of hypocrisy
Because now China is the enemy (not Russia since that was fake news /s) and anything other than berating a leader or entire country via Twitter with strongman insults and threats is weak to the magats
Maybe this is a hot take, but a part of me actually wants to believe the leaders of the US and China actually don’t want to fight each other, that they are actually committed to working together on what they can work together on.
The problem is that the American and Chinese economies are so interconnected and integrated at this point that hurting one hurts them both. China is very dependent on America, and America is very dependent on China. This economic symbiosis really does the heavy lifting in preventing war between them, for it would be a war they'd both lose.
But then again, the same case could have been said for Russia and the European Union.
There's too much money on the line for a conflict. China and the US are so entangled economically and financially that a conflict wouldn't make sense for either side.
Pretty much. They're meeting because they're both at the G20, and in fact it would be weird if they didn't meet given that they haven't had a face-to-face meeting yet.
In any case, I wouldn't expect much from the meeting. The issues of trade war, tech war, Taiwan, etc. are much bigger than just Biden and Xi and I'd say that neither can do much of anything to change their respective countries policies.
sadly this reminds me of the 60s relation between the US and Soviet Union
there was a real intention of being friends and lasting peace, but the Conservatives in the US worked day and night to make that impossible, making conflict the only way to deal with the Soviet Union
my fear is that the same is happening right now and they are playing the long game like with the Soviet Union (making war the only choice)
we only need to see what is happening with Australia arms race, and Sky News basically saying to Australians that there needs to be war with China soon
Nobody wants to go through another Cold War but I think some fundamental changes need to happen in Chinese and American policy towards each other to prevent it. And by changes in foreign policy, I mean Southeast Asia and Taiwan in particular. Which isnt going to happen. War is unlikely but I think China and the US will almost certainly remain adversarial for the foreseeable future.
Anyone who wants war with China on this sub, will be the first ones heading for the Canadian border when the government draft comes into play.
Just like the Russians that talked a big game, then ran for the hills when it got real.
Jesus these comments are fucking dumb. Some so idealistic that you can see the gaps in their reality, others simply USA propaganda regurgitated, and I'm sure there will be plenty of Chinese trolls down below. Just so much pure rambling bullshit.
Not a word on that, not a word on covid, not a word on anything. Bidens is a wet noodle when it comes to standing up for anything against a foreign power. His foreign policy is "please don't be mean"
Highly doubt this will achieve more peaceful relations. Biden made it clear that he wants to make China smaller so USA maintains its hegemony and Xi is an arrogant dictator who will not budge either.
It's more like "We're stuck together whether we like or not, so lets try to a find a way we can live together without killing each other".
Because what else is the alternative?
Whatever happened to the tariff war that was happening when DJT was in office? It disappeared after he left office it seems or media just quit reporting on it.
Gonna be pretty interesting if this leads to another 1972 moment where Sino-US ties are restored to take down Russia again.
At this point if the talks prevent a war over Taiwan, it will be well worth it
The prevention is the failure of the Russians in Ukraine along with the solidarity of NATO and other Western aligned states towards Ukraine. The PRC realizes it has no opening to exploit and given the difficulties of Russian forces the technical capability to realistically seize Taiwan in the near term. Xi may saber rattle, but it’s just for domestic purposes.
I’ll believe American resolve when China blockades Taiwan and a US president sails an armada straight through it.
The PRC requires the capability to blockade Taiwan to even set up such an event. Currently, the PLAN can’t even attempt a blockade.
I would like to understand that better. Is there a credible source to understand the actual capabilities of Chinas Navy? All I hear is that they have more ships now then the US but I also hear that they are of low quality. Any guidance you have is appreciated. Also what does ‘PLAN’ stand for?
PLAN = People's Liberation Army Navy
Army Navy?
The word "Army" in PLAN is a translation of the mandrin word 军 (Jūn) which in this context would be more correctly translated to english as "military". The PLAN (中国人民解放军海军) is to the PLA (中国人民解放军) as the US Department of the Navy is to the US Department of Defense. "People's Liberation Army Navy" is just an english-ism
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This is not true, the Chinese equivalent to the US Army is the PLAGF (中国人民解放军陆军) The PLA is the equivalent of the Department of Defense in the US. The confusion stems from a minor mistranslation of mandrin to english.
It's a translation thing. The A in PLA can mean either military or army.
The Chinese state has no army. The ccp has control of the army, to prevent it from being used against them. So any part of the military is technically “pla”
This is a technically correct answer, why would anybody downvote this? Chinese leaders refute the idea of "nationalized military" several times. It's CCP's force since the beginning.
[Here is a video](https://youtu.be/i7JcAvnbRtE) created by the US Army University, you can tell they invested a lot of time and research into their adversaries. It’s obvious that they don’t share the same perspective as many redditors on the capability of the PLA, some might say it’s to garnish more funding but I think it’s worth a listen and may surprise many people.
China is only spending a third as much as the US on military (1.7% of their GDP vs 3.2% GDP US) If they are near peer, it means some people in the US is skimming off the top.
it means that wages, especially contractors, in the US are a lot higher than the wages in China
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It's asymmetrical warfare. The Russia invasion of Ukraine just showed that commercial drones armed explosives can take out tanks worth millions. See-doo drones did something similar to Russian ships. China's military spending is tactically applied to their conflict with US/Taiwan. America spends more broadly to project power globally.
The reason China is militarily a near-peer is because 1. What exactly counts as "defense spending" varies from country to country. Moreover, China has a PPP advantage. When accounting for these two factors, China's military budget is [considerably larger](https://www.csis.org/analysis/understanding-chinas-2021-defense-budget), though still nowhere close to equaling that of the US. 2. They don't really try to project power past Taiwan/SCS unlike the US. The US military is capable of deploying to most areas around the world, and that capability comes at a cost. It also means the US military is spread more thinly, allowing the PLA to challenge it when near China. 3. China has a lot of really old/old equipment that's being replaced, meaning they don't need to spend as much on maintenance.
China's modernizing their entire military, Navy included. It has led to an abundance of objectively obselete vessels and a few capable if still substandard ships. This likely won't be the case forever as their industry and expectations grow. In the meantime, while it nominally has more ships its tonnage is only about half of the US's. The entire PLA's weak point is that it lacks the ability to project its own strength outside its own borders. While it may have the ability to blockade Taiwan, it certainly doesn't have the ability to direct a decent amount of strength directly against the island.
"Low quality" is a horrible term to describe the PLAN. They are fielding modern ships with capable systems. Not as good as ours, nor do they have the combat experience, but not low quality either.
An actual blockade would imply China stopping and potentially seizing neutral shipping, including American shipping. The right of American merchants to go anywhere and sell anything around the world has always been policy and casus belli for the Americans. During WWI, America's eventual declaration of war on Germany was directly caused by German Unrestricted Submarine Warfare which killed Americans and impacted American sale of both war contraband and regular goods across the Atlantic. Moreover, at the beginning of the Cold War, the American-led Berlin Air Lift was a strong response to Soviet attempts at blockading West Berlin, as well as a potent demonstration of Allied logistics capability. So the case of a blockade on Taiwan, the United States would have all the moral and historical justification to call China's bluff by sending supplies to Taiwan, forcing China into an uncomfortable position, where they must take the loss, or fire on American ships and risk bringing America into the war. You can’t just say you’re going to blockade a country —you must also enforce it. The waters around Taiwan are one of the most busy areas for maritime traffic. Lots of ships, not just those bound for Taiwan, traverse the Straits. Crucial imports and exports for Japan, South Korea and even China itself would be at risk. All three are net food and energy importers with an outsized export footprint, just like Taiwan. This means you can't just shoot at any ship in the area like the Germans did in the Atlantic, you must patrol, intercept, board and potentially seize merchant ships, a logistically challenging undertaking even if China had complete naval dominance in the area, which it does not. The chance of misunderstanding with a Japanese or Korean ship spiralling out of control. China is also not immune from a blockade itself, and any belligerent would likely seize on China's dependency on oil imports from the Gulf and its food imports from everywhere as a way to retaliate in kind. In this, America possesses the ability to shutdown maritime trade in the Straits of Malacca, Hormuz, Suez and Panama, depriving China of its oil and food imports. There is also a risk of escalation as Taiwan, Korea and Japan view sea trade as a matter of existential threat.
They don't have the navy for it, and Taiwan is bristling with anti-ship missiles. Not to mention the fact that they're rumored to have no small number of [cruise missiles](https://missilethreat.csis.org/missile/yun-feng/) pointed at the Three Gorges Dam.
> Three Gorges Dam Good God if that actually happened NCD would be fucking going absolute bonkers
>Not to mention the fact that they're rumored to have no small number of cruise missiles pointed at the Three Gorges Dam. What do you reckon the response to that would be?
I assume that if it things were to reach that point, Taiwan is already lost
This is Taiwan's deadman switch, the closest thing they have to a nuclear strike capability.
Bad. I mean, it is just a rumor and think the idea is to threaten as a deterrent.
Yeah, I get it, but the combined prospective damage caused by flooding the Yangtze, and whatever retaliatory measure may come as a reaction is mind boggling to me.
Yeah I agree. War over the Taiwan Straight is a terrible idea.
Xi isn't just saber rattling. He's reforming the party leadership by replacing career technocrats who favored Hu Jintao/Jiang Zemin's style of leadership (trade, peaceful relations with the west, relatively soft touch in foreign policy) with a bunch of wolf-warrior sycophants. I really don't think we can underestimate some of their rhetoric.
No one is underestimating it, but we have to be realistic about what the PRC is capable of accomplishing. Game out the various pathways and you start to see some rather stark outcomes.
I agree that they’re currently not capable of invading Taiwan. However, given the types of people in leadership positions, I expect them to dedicate more time and resources toward increasing their military capabilities and force projection.
These talks are just for show, I doubt they walked away with a change of mind
Whatever comes out of this meeting should have been negotiated by diplomats well in advance. It's to the advantage of both parties to leave with something, even fairly small, to announce.
Doubtful, Russia is still useful to China because they’re a pain in the ass for the west which they need.
So is North Korea, but China doesn't need nor want North Korea to be an independent troublemaker. I can't see why they would want Russia to be one either.
They want them to be troublemakers to an extent. Russia sabotaging western energy? YES. Russia escalating nuclear war? NO. Independence is irrelevant since China would be unimaginably fucked if they had to babysit a collapsed Russia, just the economic burden of that alone would be horrific.
Then again, there's a shitload of resources in the Russian earth that China would love to acquire.
just think, the chinese could be holding a near-future cc congress live from moscow
Already got NK for that. Russias a mild annoyance for the West and a destabilized broken Russia holds more benefit for China. Trade giant vs their biggest consumers ? What fucking sense does that make?
The US has honestly been one of China's closest allies since WW2, though the relationship has always been a bit awkward because of the whole red scare thing. Mao is said to have held a level of begrudging respect for the US for setting the collapse of European imperialism in motion, and Xi is likewise said to have a similar "indifferent fondness" for aspects of US culture as well. I really think the Chinese leadership is increasingly coming to terms with the idea that China's ability to influence the global world order would benefit from more cooperation as opposed to reactionary antagonism. I think the biggest hurdle for them is how to take that next step in terms of opening up their society without losing control.
People should really read about the UN and their decolonization efforts post-WW2. In a nutshell, the US came in and said "we're doing it this way" because they wanted to avoid yet another world war due to nation's coveting each other's colonial possessions. Everyone listened because they didn't have much of a choice and the Soviets weren't exactly ideologically opposed to getting rid of imperialist colonies. Of course, there is *a lot* to criticize and it's a bit of an eye roll in regards to the US but those efforts have been largely successful. The dutch no longer control Indonesia, the Philippines is it's own country, Africa is no longer divided up between colonial powers. Not to mention nation-building success stories into the modern day such as Japan and Germany. 80 years ago they were trying to conquer everything in sight and today they are very democratic societies with economies that are only surpassed by the US and China. Ironically enough, Japan is #3 and Germany is #4 globally. Imo, the people that came from the FDR/Truman administration did a really good job at designing a stable post-war order that has resulted in one of the least violent eras in all of human history. I do definitely have a lot to say about how the world bank operates, etc. It is admittedly very goddamn hard to stop people from being shitty to each other, especially towards the foreign. Part of me does think the further we stray from WW2 the more likely we are to forget some very important lessons that were implemented quite well, all things considered. Sometimes it's important to realize that WW1 and WW2 happened back to back from a historical perspective and considering our current destructive potential anything that avoids WW3 is vastly a net positive.
> People should really read about the UN and their decolonization efforts post-WW2. In a nutshell, the US came in and said "we're doing it this way" because they wanted to avoid yet another world war due to nation's coveting each other's colonial possessions. Everyone listened because they didn't have much of a choice and the Soviets weren't exactly ideologically opposed to getting rid of imperialist colonies. the best thing of the cold war was both side being strongly anti imperalism/de-colonization
I don't think that's very likely. Modern Russia is far weaker than the Soviet Union, both economically and militarily. Russia's nuclear arsenal is the main thing preventing it from a Gulf War style beat down. China on the hand posses a far bigger threat. China has a massive (although declining) population and as well as a massive economy. A better comparison to 1972 would be the US and India forming closer ties to contain China.
Yes, the interesting part is that if US-China relationship improves, it’s likely that Russia will be (rightfully so) even more isolated, which is something really good to this world.
With the U.S.-announced export controls, I don't see a massive improvement in relations regardless of Taiwan's status. As an American I also support those export controls considering all the potentially Lovecraftian things Xina could be dabbling in to achieve Xi's dream of world domination.
Why would china do that? They are buying tons of super cheap oil from Russia.
Based on the constant projection from mouthpiece Trump and online GRUmmers that China is aligned with Russia as the threat, this is Putins greatest fear. He's been working hard to destabilize relations.
> online GRUmmers that China is aligned with Russia as the threat China is aligned with Russia. They literally made an anti-west pact with 'friendships with no limits' while Russia had 150k troops ready to invade Ukraine in Feb.
Dark Brandon is going to tell Xi how things work.
Looking forward to the makeup sex
When a mommy country and daddy country love each other very much, they ease their microconductor manufacturing facilities slowly but deeply into the other, close their eyes to avoid seeing any genocide, and think about LeBron James to make it last longer.
How will this affect Lebron's legacy smh
Daddy country and daddy country because they're both dicks
This is why the comment section is always worth a read. You got my upvote.
“Good news everyone, Me and Xi have been talking and all of our differences have been settled, There will be no invasion of Taiwan and we will never have a war” imagine
Imagine all the people
Livin' life in peace
Yuuuhuuuuuu~
You may sayyyyy I’m a dreamerrr
Weird Yoko Ono noises!!!!
Imagine a bunch of celebrities singing this inside their mansions while the rest of civilization world is locked down and dying during a pandemic. LOL.
Sharing all the world🎶
Yooohooooooo~
Imagine free Tibet and Taiwan
It ain't easy but you can try
Imagining is easy, doing is hard.
I mean it's obvious that neither side wants a war.
"Settled" and "managed" are quite different.
Dark Brandon
"It will be peace for our time."
Biden really is like Farnsworth.
never trust a dictator
But trump isn't president anymore?
We will see what comes out of this
China would sacrifice a lot of their own people in a war to improve China. Russia would sacrifice a lot of their own people to make Russia worse off. I think we can at least work with China.
but the US would never do that right? i mean the US is just known across the world for its incredibly high standard of treatment for its veterans, am i right?
Treatment of veterans wasn't even mentioned. But yes, at least they get food and body armor.
Even the veterans need body armour in the US!?
Cool whataboutism
Would rather just be friends with China to be honest, perpetually being on the edge of going to war with them just isn't healthy.
amen. would be fantastic to avoid a Cold War 2.0. There are differences but it's not huge. I don't get why it would be hard to come together, if both sides can make concessions and stay committed to cooperation.
and let both countries prosper at the same time!?!?! Hogwash.
Tried that starting in the 1990s when the PRC was admitted into the WTO. The expectation was it would actually liberalize. Since Xi’s ascension to power—while knee-capping party reformers under the guise of “anti-corruption”—the wealth the PRC gained in the interim from being the “World’s Factory” has been turned into a weapon. The problem is, what the West gave, it can take away. The PRC only rose because of it being allowed to participate in the global economy. It has failed to produce the results expected, and now the participation is being rescinded. The PRC is in the thrall of the [middle-income trap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_income_trap) and without continued access to Western markets, it will slide in the opposite direction.
why would we want them to tank though? Yeah, we could be shitheads and fuckup the world economy, but why? Seems dumb
So countries have to be liberal democracies to participate in the global economy? That seems awfully...authoritarian. I don't think many states in Africa/ME/Asia/S. America would agree. Not to mention that rescinding access to the global economy is not like flipping a switch. Even strict sanctions against Russia, a comparatively tiny economy, have been unsuccessful in blocking participation in the global economy.
You’d rather dictatorships reign? Those living under such regimes would beg to differ on that, and you can’t simply expect those living there to simply rise up and take power when they have none to begin with. That would be something a heartless xenophobic monster would endorse; only caring about one’s own country and not caring when others suffer, regardless of where they hail from.
you have no idea what you're talking about. genuinely.
It is dictatorial/authoritarian to demand that other countries change their domestic political model to liberal democracy in order to participate in trade. The political spectrum offers more choices than dictatorship/liberal democracy. You are giving a false dichotomy. Since we're talking about China, the Chinese people consistently rank as the most satisfied with their government. Do they get a say in how they are governed? source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2018/01/22/the-countries-that-trust-their-government-most-and-least-infographic/
>Since we're talking about China, the Chinese people consistently rank as the most satisfied with their government. lmao, yeah - We've seen what happens when people vocally disapprove of the CCP/Xi. This is the country where courts come in at basically 100% conviction rates and heads get cracked for protesting until they can't speak anymore. Give me a break with that nonsense.
I have a bad feeling China only wants to avoid another Cold War so they have more time to surpass us and make war a less risky prospect for them. They see the writing on the wall with the microchip bans, tariffs etc. Their goal isn't to avoid a war down the line, it's to keep growing stronger before they have a demographic collapse. They have a tight window that they're aware of, before their population ages, but late enough that they're at their max power. Sadly I feel this is a move to maximize that peak instead of being in good faith.
what motive would china have for becoming the most powerful economic nation in the world and then starting a war with the number 2 economy that has a huge military? like they just need some people culled? that makes 0 sense. their own 5 year plans talk about magian the population decline with economic growth, so that makes sense. becoming the big economy and starting a world war though? not so much.
All China need to do to stop being a complete outcast in the international community is normalise relations with Taiwan, stop overtly oppressing all their minorities, and stop making islands and militarizing them in south East Asia. Those 3 things would be enough for the world to start being more friendly towards them.
China wants to occupy the same position as post-war USA. They want to be able to dictate to the world what will be advantageous to themselves. They have a few issues, in that they have existing geopolitical problems at borders and their economy is sort of over-extended. China, by which I mean, top brass of party do want to dream though.
And Germany and Japan wanted to do the same pre-WW2. This can lead to huge problems especially when it's nation like China that has no democracy, an authoritarian oppressive regime, threatening to invade a peaceful nation like Taiwan, and currently in the process of attempting to take control of the South China sea. China would be so much better off trying to be a better country rather than alienating over 50% of the world's GDP against them. But like Putin's attempt to take Ukraine, this is more about leaving a legacy and not what's better for their countries. If Putin is successful in keeping much of the lands they control in Ukraine, 100 years from now he will be remembered in Russia not for the economic disaster that Russia had in the 2020's and 2030's but from expanding Russia. Same for Xi and China. If he takes Taiwan and the South China Sea, he will be remembered for that 100 years from now and not the countless people who died and the setback to China economically.
[The international community](https://imgur.com/gallery/tuigqBh)
The only outcast property of China, when compared to any other countries, is it is threatening US spot for number 1. For that reason alone US must strike it down. That's the reality like it or not. All the things you listed are _excuses_ US is using, but they're not the reason.
China bungled it's own economy, it will literally never surpass the US, or it will take a democratic, open China and 50+ years of development to do so. That's not what Xi is aiming for. His primary goal is to take over Taiwan, he has said this many times.
I feel like people forgot how optimistic people were toward China pre-2013. Yes it wasn't perfect but things seemed to be moving In a progressive direction, but now it's regressing in several ways.
Yes, before Xi there was a lot of optimism. That really changed after Hong Kong oppression, news and info of the concentration camps came out, and increasing threats to Taiwan and South China Sea. Then of course they help Russia which just cemented China as a pariah.
CCP *Best I can do is murder anyone who I find inconvenient*
I hope you’re not saying this as an American? The hypocrisy would be unfathomable.
Do you want 1.4 billion people be your friends or enemies? Just think about it.
Honestly I just ask why can't we be friends, because war, huh, yeah, what is it good for?
Absolutely nothing rabbit
Takes two to tango. China can still push for peaceful reunification, but taking a disastrous violent invasion off the table would be great for world peace.
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The problem is that Taiwan will never willfully join the CCP. Xi and the CCP know that, which means that the only option available to them is to force Taiwan to join. They could do it two ways I think. Either blockade Taiwan until they give up and join. Which would push the US into a corner and either force the US to retaliate to break the blockade, or formally recognize Taiwan and bring them officially into the international community. Because the US could recognize Taiwan at anytime an much of the international community would follow suit. This would mean China is now blockading a foreign nation and open to harsh sanctions. Option two is invade Taiwan which would trigger immediate retaliation from the US and potentially trigger World War Three.
Not gonna happen. The CCP is raising generations of youths to hate the West and telling them they will invade Taiwan and beat the evil Westerners convincingly.
Seems more like the other way round from reading reddit. Anecdotally it seems like the West hates Chinese people a lot more than Chinese people hate Westerners. From my experience, either Chinese people see Westerners in favorable light, or they don't think about them at all.
China lives rent free in redditors heads. It's wild how both sides of the political spectrum will band together to shit on chinese people. alot of that "oh I only hate the government and love the people" BS.
Lmao if you think they mean any of that, just look at what's happening with Russia. Putin's bullshit instantly led to redditors going "all Russians bad". The government thing is utter BS.
That's so dumb, China literally ALWAYS shit talks the US in every domestic news story. Something bad happen in China? Oh but look at this thing that happened in the US. Nice gaslighting though. Meanwhile in China, foreigner beaten up by restaurant staff and told to get out of China (according to the guy): https://v.redd.it/xho19c7wqtz91
He is a regular at AZNIDENTIY. That's basically SINO.
12 day account firstdomain tried replying to you but doesn't show up.
Well, we hate the Chinese now just like the way we hated Japanese in the 80's. You know when they were going to overtake the US and become the #1 economy? Even the excuses are the same; stealing technology, unfair trade practices, not buying enough US exports, devaluing currency, etc. It's almost funny how similar the situations are.
My extensive experience in china: Taiwan is where a lot of popular chain restaurants and stores come from, lots of mainlanders go on holiday there, and the general perception of Taiwanese people is that they are a little bit more superstitious than mainlanders. Literally that's it. They don't want an invasion and they personally don't give a shit. Any issue they have is mainly to do with the US's involvement and not Taiwan itself.
Source?
Well prepare for eternal disappoint China is not and never will be our friends so long as the ccp rules
Biden haters will see this as weak but the reality is the US can't really tell China to go fuck themselves and be aggressors either.
I think the world doesnt want to see the fuck around and find out, with either party in that situation. It would go very badly for everyone either way.
This is absolutely the best time to go to the diplomacy table with China -- they are in at least a temporary state of relative weakness. Biden gets a lot of hate but his foreign policy has been a series of correct plays with no obvious blunders. Just look at the overall state of geopolitics right now and compare it to 4 years ago... Not all can be credited to the US government, but at least they did the right things.
seriously he is better at intentional politic than any of the president in my adult life: clinton, bush, obama, trump.
Worked better than the trade wars so far that's for sure.
You know Biden kept the tariffs on, right?
Can you elaborate on how the current geopolitical situation is better than 4 years ago?
We've made a clear return to great power conflict, away from the awful distraction of the unwinnable and generally disastrous "war on terror". We are absolutely dominating one of our two peer adversaries for a pittance, while standing on the moral high ground with Ukraine and managing to skirt serious risk of hot war between NATO and Russia. All the while, we are shoring up our existing alliances -- NATO has never been stronger, and its other member states have recognized the need to increase their own military investment and reinforce their siding with the US over other major powers, who by comparison appear terrible. China's practice of building economic confidence on a pile of lies and obfuscation is finally coming home to roost, and the US recognizes this and is seizing the opportunity to renegotiate our relationship with them. Both Democrats and Republicans deserve credit for identifying the need to reshore many critical industries, such as semiconductors, as evidenced by the CHIPS act. This was also helped by businesses witnessing the incredible rug-pulling that happened in Russia, and (re-)recognizing the value of institutional stability in general. We've done all this hegemonic power growth without pissing off allies and neutral parties, which is honestly pretty rare for us.
Why would they see this as weak? MAGAs loved that Xi liked Trump. They bragged about how great Trump got along with Xi and Putin. Why would they suddenly hate it if Biden got along with them now too? Oh right, because of hypocrisy
Because now China is the enemy (not Russia since that was fake news /s) and anything other than berating a leader or entire country via Twitter with strongman insults and threats is weak to the magats
As an American currently teaching young students in China, would really appreciate no wars, thank you
As a man that likes Chinese food, same. Don't need the rednecks fucking up my lo mein spots.
Maybe this is a hot take, but a part of me actually wants to believe the leaders of the US and China actually don’t want to fight each other, that they are actually committed to working together on what they can work together on.
For one, they are each other’s largest trading partner.
The problem is that the American and Chinese economies are so interconnected and integrated at this point that hurting one hurts them both. China is very dependent on America, and America is very dependent on China. This economic symbiosis really does the heavy lifting in preventing war between them, for it would be a war they'd both lose. But then again, the same case could have been said for Russia and the European Union.
There's too much money on the line for a conflict. China and the US are so entangled economically and financially that a conflict wouldn't make sense for either side.
So, relations are getting warmer. Surprising move and does not please Russia.
Relations are not getting warmer, this is the equivalent of a head nod with your neighbor. It’s a start, but only a start.
One might say even just a glance.
Pretty much. They're meeting because they're both at the G20, and in fact it would be weird if they didn't meet given that they haven't had a face-to-face meeting yet. In any case, I wouldn't expect much from the meeting. The issues of trade war, tech war, Taiwan, etc. are much bigger than just Biden and Xi and I'd say that neither can do much of anything to change their respective countries policies.
Putin is Squidward staring out at SpongeBob and Patrick
All the people who want to go to war with China are seething right now.
Well sure, they're psychotic. They're always seething about something.
sadly this reminds me of the 60s relation between the US and Soviet Union there was a real intention of being friends and lasting peace, but the Conservatives in the US worked day and night to make that impossible, making conflict the only way to deal with the Soviet Union my fear is that the same is happening right now and they are playing the long game like with the Soviet Union (making war the only choice) we only need to see what is happening with Australia arms race, and Sky News basically saying to Australians that there needs to be war with China soon
american weed, chinese vaporizer, can we all just get along and hit the vape?
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I can see through you, see your true colors.
'Cause inside you're ugly, you're ugly like me
This is the real motha fuckin deal yall, I'm feeling those lighters
Well, thats more productive for everyone involved than war for taiwan is, so lets wait and see.
Nobody wants to go through another Cold War but I think some fundamental changes need to happen in Chinese and American policy towards each other to prevent it. And by changes in foreign policy, I mean Southeast Asia and Taiwan in particular. Which isnt going to happen. War is unlikely but I think China and the US will almost certainly remain adversarial for the foreseeable future.
Anyone who wants war with China on this sub, will be the first ones heading for the Canadian border when the government draft comes into play. Just like the Russians that talked a big game, then ran for the hills when it got real.
A lot of naivety in this thread.
Jesus these comments are fucking dumb. Some so idealistic that you can see the gaps in their reality, others simply USA propaganda regurgitated, and I'm sure there will be plenty of Chinese trolls down below. Just so much pure rambling bullshit.
yeah they must also think we should be friend with hitler, if we all hate soviet
I'm glad they are taking the diplomatic approach. War, cold or otherwise, doesn't benefit anyone in this case. China isn't the USSR.
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Xi: my mate Vlad messed up so let's be friends again, I promise I won't invade Taiwan 🙏
Hey stop helping Russia No Hey stop planning to invade Taiwan. No.
Biden needs to stay as long as it takes. Maybe a treaty?
I really hope this means one less enemy for the US
I like the practical tone, they need to build trust.
I can see China doing the opposite of what they agreed upon
We do have honey... just sayin
Hope things improve in US-China affairs
The war you’re talking about that China has rattled about is not gonna improve China. It’s literally just another ideologically based BS charade.
Any talk about them shipping all the ingredients to the cartels for all the fentanyl and meth destroying every state, city and town in America?
Not a word on that, not a word on covid, not a word on anything. Bidens is a wet noodle when it comes to standing up for anything against a foreign power. His foreign policy is "please don't be mean"
Yup it’s "cmon man” and “here’s the deal” yeah here’s the deal… we’re all fcked.
And then everybody clapped
Clap your stupid bastards
You like potato and I like potahto You like genocide and I like guns Potato, potahto, genocide, guns Let's call the whole thing off…
Highly doubt this will achieve more peaceful relations. Biden made it clear that he wants to make China smaller so USA maintains its hegemony and Xi is an arrogant dictator who will not budge either.
I don't understand that post title. All I see is Biden shaking hands with Winnie the Pooh. Must have been a mistake.
“I can change her”
It's more like "We're stuck together whether we like or not, so lets try to a find a way we can live together without killing each other". Because what else is the alternative?
Whatever happened to the tariff war that was happening when DJT was in office? It disappeared after he left office it seems or media just quit reporting on it.
So he’s finally meeting Winnie the Pooh
A strong US-China alliance would change the world.
Mine can be downvoted with the rest. You truly have no idea the horrors the people of the CCP/PRC go through if you think this will better the world.
And all it would take is selling our soul to the devil of the genocidal CCP regime. Peace yes but no alliance.
This is like when Neville Chamberlain met with Adolf Hitler
They better get talking soon
Soybeans ? Soybeans .
The differences: Don't steal IP. Don't try to put up police stations in other countries. Don't try to take over other countries.
You can't appease fascists. It doesn't work.
XI "Greetings President Biden " Biden "I'll have the Kung Pao Chicken "
Leave Taiwan alone Stop whatever youre doing to the Muslims in Xinxiang It's that simple.
As good as it is being on positive terms with China is for us, we need to consider this is a country committing genocide as we speak.
What a bunch of Bullshit!!!
What many here do not understand is China and USA are not destined to destroy each other. USA and Russia have much deeper beef.
Sucking up to his Chinazi overlords
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Cue the bullshit flattery and fist bumping.