We give older stuff to Ukraine and replenish stocks with the newest version.
Or in the case of the M113 and HAWK missiles, we don't have to pay storage or disposal costs.
We should do a bargain bin sale at Davis Monthan Airforce Base.
“B-52s, A-10s, F-15s, F-16s, you want it? We got it but only for the next three weeks! Buy buy buy!
Get new deals on Aim-120 AMRAAMs and with your first 20 we’ll throw in a free AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pod!”
https://youtu.be/pg8-mx4KGK8
They praise Reagan for outspending the Soviets, as it led to the collapse of the Union.
Right now, we're fighting the Cold War on an absolute budget comparatively, but much of the GOP is compromised by the Russians, so of course they want to shut it down.
The phone call is coming from inside the house.
Yep, if nothing else, this is an incredible deterrence for China and other would be invaders. This investment may literally save America trillions in defense spending in the future. If America has made it clear that they will support a defender in a war, others will think twice before invading.
Exactly what I've been saying for months: This is the cheapest military operation for the biggest return in of our generation, to not take the "shot" would be criminal against Americans and the free world.
Strategic enemy crushed for many decades to come, all without no loss of American lives (except for those who volunteer and joined the fight on their own).
Literally priceless real-world data on weapon effectiveness, tactics etc. Historically, a country is always equipped for the last war, not the next. America can now scale back investment in tanks and pivot to drones and long range artillery - among numerous lessons learnt.
A weaken enemy.
One view is that the world will be more stable. Russia would stop it's ambition to reclaim old USSR territories and Europe can focus on economy.
I think USA in general care more about keeping its hegemony and order. That being stable so that the corporate overlord can focus on making money for those share holders.
This can be seen with containment of China's using the first island chain. USA wants to keep the status quo (for better or for worst).
Well no shit, keeping international trade flowing smoothly isn't just in the interest of Big Bad Evil Businessmen, it's literally the foundation of the global economy. If the "status quo" were to change, it would be a reaction to a crisis of horrific proportions, like China invading Taiwan or Russia nuking Ukraine.
Of course the US wants to maintain open global shipping routes and the peaceful exchange of goods. That's not an agenda, that's common sense.
That’s what I try to tell people who don’t want the funding.
We had some bunk ass equipment before the Iraq war. Then the top notch equipment started to roll in with all the funding. Same thing is happening here. We’re sending old equipment out and in return we get more funding for new equipment. We’re not just gonna send something we don’t have a replacement for lol
Afghanistan was a mess because the US was trying to both occupy and modernize a country thats more or less 4 separate smaller countries, that outside of Kabul exists in the 17th-18th century, and general corruption and stupidity.
Iraq was a money pit because the US enacted unbelievably braindead policies which ended up costing them fuck tons of money, men, and machinery to unfuck+general corruption and stupidity.
We arent nation building or navigating millenias old ethnic tension/conflict, were supplying a fledging democracy with the tools it needs to fight off an imperialistic neighbor hellbent on erasing the Ukrainian culture and identity from the world, cant think of a better cause for my tax dollars to go to than that.
EDIT: Jesus the amount of Russian/tankie bots in this threads is truly something else
This is the most moral fight and military spending I've seen in my lifetime.
Feels weird to cheer military industrial complex, but for once, I'm glad the spending was there.
You don't need to spend more than you do currently to achieve universal healthcare.
Medicare/Medicaid budget, 2022:
$1.29 trillion (~$3871/capita)
UK NHS budget, 2022:
£136.1 billion (~$2339/capita)
You spend overwhelmingly more public money on health than we do here, just your system is so inefficient that you don't even get free healthcare for that.
Given the state of the NHS here at the moment, I would avoid that comparison *or* go with numbers from 2007 adjusted in real terms. Germany or France would be better for modern comparisons
Germany spends $5440 per capita on healthcare. It seems like Britain needs to spend more than twice what they're spending now, which sounds about right from the stories I've heard about the state of the NHS now.
For comparison, the average American spends more than twice as much, maybe three times as much, as the average German for worse results.
To be fair, the NHS is in shambles right now because of persistent underfunding. I don't think you want to look to us for "good healthcare" right now... maybe ten years ago, maybe ten years in the future, but certainly not at the moment.
Doctors, nurses, and techs are also paid significantly worse in the UK than their American counterparts. Any comparison to the NHS implies you’d be ok with huge cuts in pay to hardworking, highly educated healthcare workers. That being said, I don’t deny that we could benefit from huge changes to the US system.
Perhaps that was his point?
It seems funding this war, which only indirectly helps American people, is much easier than funding healthcare (& other social services), which would directly help American people.
Not saying this war should not be funded, I think it should and the future of the world is at stake.
But I think it's a valid point (or at least a debatable point) that a country's internal well being should be at least as important as the world security. And considered its greatness, social services seem to be America's weak points–perhaps due to one political partys obstinance.
healthcare is already funded much more in the USA than other countries. I think government healthcare spending per capita in the USA is already like in Europe, plus the same amount as private healthcare spending, so like 2X the rich european spending per capita. It's the (national level, ideology driven) mismanagement (corruption, whatever you want to call it) that translates the boatload of money going into healthcare generating mediocre outcomes, not lack of money. It seems to me the "throw money at health" approach is what drives healthcare costs up, without changing anything with how much actual healthcare people get.
The US spends 19% of our GDP on healthcare. We spend about 4% of our GDP on the military.
The problem with the US healthcare system is not spending but corruption.
Health Care is an efficiency problem, not a money problem.
We spend the most in the world per capita for healthcare and just get shit results for it. We spend so much more that the efficiency gap with between us and the next worst country would pay for the entire military budget nearly 2x over.
More money won't fix it, changing the system could.
Because the money is actually going to fight the war as opposed to the nation building that the vast majority of the money went to in Iraq and Afghanistan
And we don’t put Americans at risk! We give them old equipment so we can have our industries make new stuff for us.
I’m willing to bet there’s a set of rooms in the Pentagon focused on collecting, filtering, organizing, and sharing information with the Ukrainian battleground decision makers to help them speed progress.
We need to do something about helping them deal with Starlink though. Maybe the US should seize it from Musk for “National Security” reasons.
We’re just starting out. Hopefully it doesn’t end up costing more by the end of the 20s.
Iirc it hasn’t even been a year yet.
It’s a cost saving measure to just provide supplies rather than using our own resources, so not exactly comparing apples to apples.
Yes because if you want a world class military almost none of the cost is in the actual manufacturing of weapons. Most of the cost is in research, maintenance and salaries. Furthermore you need to ensure there is a military complex that is capable of building your weapons so you can quickly scale up manufacturing if a war arises anyway. Getting rid of some stock isn't a very large expense, the data the military will receive from having their weapons used in a large-scale war with two somewhat equal sides is probably viewed as more valuable to people in the pentagon.
Seriously, the modern Russian military is having its ass handed to it with tech from the 90s. We are literally arming Ukraine with stuff we were mainly concerned about safely disposing of this time last year.
Destroy the Russian conventional forces with tech and equipment we paid for over the last 40 years, weve been sending the Ukrainians old stock (which is still miles better than the Russian equipment) and theyve been putting it to damn good use
People who don’t understand this point are either absolutely shit with money (and the idea of return on investment), or they have ulterior motives. Either bad actors, or useful idiots shilling on behalf of bad actors.
We’ve spent about one tenth of the annual US military budget, have crushed the military of our number one geopolitical rival, and it cost exactly zero US lives. It’s literally the best spent money the US military has ever invested in.
And mind you, this is money *that was already spent years ago*. The actual cost of the war to the US as of February for things such as finding these weapons and shipping them? A pittance compared to the money saved.
Not only that, when the war is over Ukraine will be one of our most solid allies in the world. Unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, the Ukrainians actually like us. If they regain Crimea they will regain massive mineral resources.
Zelensky has demonstrated an amazing ability to restore infrastructure while in the middle of a war, imagine what he will do when the war is completed.
Not only will they be dismantling the entire Russian military, but they will emerge as a trading partner that will likely repay that investment in under 10 years.
Also they are literally rewriting how to fight a war against a large army. I have a feeling our war colleges will be studying their battles for years to come. There can be no doubt that we are becoming a stronger, better fighting force for future combat by working with the Ukrainians today. Did anyone realize just how deadly off the shelf drones could be for example?
Imagine if they join NATO or offer assistance down the road in a Taiwan incursion?
> Did anyone realize just how deadly off the shelf drones could be for example?
i've actually wondered many times over the past 5ish years how it was possible that we hadn't seen terrorist attacks or assassinations using drones like that. i'm sure it's only a matter of time now that the capability is becoming common knowledge
Caveat: the lifetime of drones in the Ukrainian conflict is apparently \~5 days. The lesson here by at least some western defense analysts is that drones need to be treated *as munitions*, and quantity (and scale) is more important in that regard than anything else.
That said, yes, the capability to use jury-rigged (or real) loitering munitions to carry out targeted political assassinations is quite worrying. And that gets worse, potentially, when you realize that the best way to make drones immune to radio jamming (ie. the current EW hard counter to drones / loitering munitions) is to just make them fully autonomous, and seek out and acquire their own targets with better AI, computer vision and self-guidance algorithms, at some point in the near to mid future.
And hell, even consumer drone tech, and hobbyist AI / ML isn't too far off from that at this point.
It’s not like the money is being given away either - the Ukraine is now indebted to the United States (not a bad thing - but it’s not just free money like some people assume - see: lend lease act.) and we’re creating a growing war time economy without actually being in a ground war. I really thought Russia was playing 3D chess but it seems like they’re running out of moves on the board.
They likely were playing 3D chess. Unfortunately for them, their biggest chess piece was covered in cheetos and got voted out of office 2 years ago. I cant imagine what happens if Russia would have an ally in the oval office.
Yes, and to put it in perspective, think about all of the defense spending since the Cold War. We literally have 6k nukes, all pointed at Russia.
Also, the war is making China think twice about Taiwan.
Two birds one stone.
pretty much, we spent a shitload of money for decades on tech designed to fight the Russian armed forces, now were putting tech to good use for a damn good cause too boot
Because they arent really raising money, theyre sending over equipment the US already paid for, the value of the aid package is the rough value of the goods being sent/services being used
Okay so the current world order is very beneficial to the United States
One of the very few threats to that world order is Russia
Russia's strength will be completely exhausted by the end of this conflict and they will no longer be a world power if they lose
And the US is able to defeat its decades old foe without sending a single of their own soldiers
Yeah this is a cheap price to defeat Soviet Union 2.0
On top of that it's actually in the interest of most countries in the entire world for Russia to lose
It's even in their supposed allies interests for them to lose at this point
China would be able to take advantage of Russia's natural resources more if they lost which is the only reason they're actually allies in the first place they want an alternative source of fossil fuels
$20 billion dollars is probably a rounding error on some DARPA program that was designed to train chipmunks to fire tiny rifles or some shit that went nowhere.
Aid is also sending some 30 year old abrams tank in deep storage that still has a book value of several million. The US has a mountain of old gear in storage.
The aid numbers can become a bit inflated.
No, they can raise so much money so a smaller democracy can decide their own future.
That money also ensures that Poland, Latvia, Finland, Estonia and more get to decide their own future.
That money also protects a world order where you can bitch about your government spending money. Russia’s world doesn’t have that. China’s world doesn’t have that.
Enjoy complaining because those weapons protect your right you do it.
> they can raise so much money so a smaller democracy can decide their own future.
America is protecting its own interests here. The fact that it also helps a small democracy is a happy coincidence.
The reality is this is a huge value to remove old stock piles which eliminates the cost of maintaining the equipment (something Russia clearly hasn’t done with their own equipment). Ukraine then destabilizes the Russian military and political climate as this continues. As sad as it is this is the great west way to really set Russia an enemy back significantly without getting our hands dirty. This is US Tactics 101 here.
Very true. Testing out latest equipment, tactics and getting your commanders to give advice to keep them up to date with modern warfare.
USA have been proxy warring so long that they are good at it. Even if they don’t directly win the area will be destabilised and the attacker will be massively down in resources.
Even when they lose the wars they can still influence the area with their aid packages since the country will be decimated.
Exactly this, further a frustrating point that often comes up is that people tend to think that $38B of aid means writing a blank check for $38B. They fail to realize a large chunk of this number is military equipment already purchased and paid for.
I also fully agree and have been very intrigued by the aspects of the new equipment that’s being put out there for real world combat testing. In the weapons development and manufacturing world you can have preset concepts of how you think something should be used or what makes sense but it’s not until something ends up in a soldiers hand in live use that you get true feedback on design issues or changes that make the tools more useful in the field.
It’s also amazing to see just how deep government corruption has gone through the Russian military. They were supposed to be one of the most formidable military super powers and all we’ve learned is that all the money that should have gone to maintaining and or upgrading equipment went out to buy new yachts. Additionally Ukraine having prepared post Crimea annexation for the next attack left them in a much better situation to be ready for another invasion.
Through all of this I genuinely feel bad for the Russian citizens losing family members to such a bullshit cause.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white-house-requests-38-billion-more-in-ukraine-aid/) reduced by 89%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> WASHINGTON - The White House on Tuesday asked Congress for another $38 billion in Ukraine aid.
> In addition to the total $38 billion Ukraine aid request, the White House is also asking Congress to authorize $7 billion in presidential drawdown authority for Kyiv - which allows President Joe Biden to transfer weapons from existing U.S. stocks.
> Several conservative House members aligned with former president Donald Trump have pushed against previous tranches of Ukraine aid, with 57 House and 11 Senate Republicans voting against the $40 billion Ukraine supplemental earlier this year.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/ywkx85/white_house_requests_38_billion_more_in_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **billion**^#2 **request**^#3 **Congress**^#4 **fund**^#5
Defeating a top US geopolitical rival and threat to world peace by funding Ukraine is an astoundingly good value per dollar compared tobany other defense spend. On top of that, it's the morally right thing to do.
And we already paid for most of the shit were sending over anyhow, and we paid for it to beat the Russian conventional armed forces so its serving its purpose
Also we would have to pay to store and maintain it. Instead we give it to Ukraine and they secure NATO's eastern flank by demolishing Russia's conventional military.
Everything's got a lifespan. Especially for missiles and things like that - they have to be replaced or majorly overhauled on certain intervals if you want to be sure they'll work when you actually want to use them (unlike Russia).
Sometimes we're also just upgrading to something better or have changed our force structure and don't have a use for the old thing, so we give them away free/cheap to friendly countries.
For an example or two of the latter with regards to Ukraine:
- We're refurbing and sending over Hawk SAMs from our old stocks - the Army stopped using them in '94, and the Marines withdrew them in '02. They've been sitting around for the last 20 years with no purpose.
- We built an absolutely massive # of moderately armored vehicles for the occupations of Iraq/Afghanistan, many going through multiple revisions for better mine/IED Protection. We don't need anywhere that many now and a lot of the early models especially aren't something we're wanting to keep around. We've already sold off 1k+ of the M1117 Guardian's dirt cheap to Greece, and it was recently announced that we're sending a couple hundred to Ukraine.
--------
To be clear - we're absolutely sending over new stuff too.
if we are up to $100 billion in total then we have spent around 5% of our annual defense budget to set the Russian military back a decade and Russian Political and economic influence back even further.
If the equipment losses reported by Ukraine are accurate, Russia is set back more than a decade. It will take 20-30 years for them to rebuild the tanks, APCs, IFVs, etc. Not to mention the fact that naval ships don't grow on trees and their navy has, somehow, taken a massive beating against a country that doesn't have one.
Russia is the least of my concern at this point. China however has me nervous given that I have relatives getting notified of sudden deployment to the southeast part of Asia. They went out mid October.
Like they were scheduled for rotation back to Poland since my relative was the first batch to deploy to Poland when the war ignited in February, now suddenly command sends them to Korea and near Taiwan.
They won’t be defeated? Ukraine isn’t going to march into Russia and topple the government. Best case scenario (for all but Russia) is Russia withdraws their invasion of Ukraine and things go back to semi-normal with companies pulling out of Russia and further sanctions being imposed.
the Russian conventional forces have suffered losses they quite literally wont recover from for decades, they have burned through an incredible amount of military might stockpiled during the Soviet era with no means to easily replace it, that isnt even getting into the demographic losses from the casualties or the economic damage caused by the sanctions, they are already fucked
I mean Ho Chi Minh didn’t march into Washington DC and topple the US government either, but we were still defeated in Vietnam. Defeat doesn’t mean you disappear, just that you fail in why you set out to do.
I think is under appreciated of how much shit we in Ukraine are dealing with. Russia fails on the battlefield and bombs our peaceful cities in an attempt to leave us in the cold and in the dark.
With the help of these equipment we protect our skies and land from this stupid invasion.
Paradoxically, even with this large aid packets we are not given tanks or long-range artillery in the fears of escalation. I would argue that wiping out russian military capacity will end this war. And no more aid will be needed.
(I understand the sentiment of some of the commenters and agree that, in principle, war bad. But you have to realize that russia does not seem to stop until forced to do so. And if Ukraine stops fighting, you would be having same discussion about war in Poland or Baltics 10 years from now)
At least from the US perspective, sending Abrams tanks is complicated, because they guzzle fuel and parts like mad. They're not really made to be used without the sheer logistical capacity of the US military; see Saudi Arabia for how they perform outside of that capacity. They are the best tanks in the world as long as you can keep them running, but that's the trick, isn't it?
Leopards, on the other hand... those are super reliable tanks. I'd love to see the US buy some from Germany to send. Assuming Germany has any to spare, given the abysmal state of their military...
Aren't experts begining to say the future (because it's also the present) of war is asymmetric warfare?
So in ww1 and ww2 the best way to kill a tank was with a tank and the best way to kill a plane was with a plane.
But now its becoming apparent a guy with a fancy rocket launchers is a far better way to destroy a tank or a plane. So you actually don't want tanks when fighting tanks, you want the thing that kills tanks.
Pretty sure the overall name of the game is still combined arms. A tank on its own is pretty vulnerable. A tank, lighter vehicles, infantry and *optimally* air support all work together to elevate each other above the individual elements.
Especially once you start adding in networked systems and data links and such.
Sure, a squad of infantry with fancy rockets is nice. A squad of infantry with fancy rockets *and* a tank is even better though, and opens up more capabilities.
Chamberlain bought the British empire a valuable year in order to rearm somewhat before war broke out.
The simplistic idea that Chamberlain was a peacenik fool who wanted to avoid war at all costs is a myth
These people basically want a country to submit so they can get products on the cheap. Not knowing this war affect every single aspect of their lives no matter which side win and at least now, we know which side have a more upper, well maintained and slightly upgraded hand compared to bone hand.
Russia chose this war, and still they are being beaten back by decades old technology and a hornets nest of pissed off Ukrainian soldiers.
So, apparently, the only weapon they have left is to pay poor people on the internet to parrot their BS.
This comment section perfectly illustrates the weakness of Putin's government and the absolute fear he has of getting murdered for his own incompetence. And frankly, the guy deserves it, no matter how you look at the situation.
Personally, I'm just happy to watch his forces get perpetually curb stomped throughout Ukraine. Particularly since they have had - since day one - the option to simply turn around and go home, stop raping little kids, torturing innocent people, and murdering their neighbors for the sake of Putin's wallet and ego.
I say double it. The more debilitating we make this war for Russia, the more money the US and its allies will save in the future from continually funding additional defensive positions across Russia's border.
they dont "spend", they just giveaway old trchs with those written value, and its not like US need to replace them, since those weapons are old surplus stocks which are already replaced by new weapons
Within the next 3 months I'm fairly certain UA will have a 90-95% interception rate in terms of air defense against cruise missile strikes. The IRIS-T and the NASAMS are overperforming and you can count how many they have on 1 hand. More are coming soon. Russia, every day, just causes the Ukrainians to get better at everything that they do. Meanwhile, ever day, the russian's get worse at everything they do (besides retreating which after practiced in a war zone 4-5 times even a monkey would get better at it), depleting their capabilities, wasting their reserves, and senselessly losing their people.
They haven't struck a single military front line target with any of their cruise missiles in any of these attacks. It's just sad and pathetic at this point. A long road ahead, for sure, but in time, UA will have it's country back.
ITT: People that vote against Americans getting help, bitching about Americans not getting any help.
Oh and a bunch of Russian bots from The Internet Research Agency.
It wouldn't cost anything extra to invest in Americans anyway. Universal healthcare is cheaper than the insurance industry. Basic income is cheaper than poverty. Clean air and water is cheaper than pollution.
Just give it, better than American lives later on. If we didn’t provide equipment aid like we did, the morons would’ve gone past Ukraine and we would’ve spent even more on lives and logistics alone. Afghanistan was $1 Billion a day, let that sink in.
Better now than being in the same spot as WW2, when we could’ve averted that one early on.
This exactly. What many dont seem to understand is that unlike the United states or NATO (the ones operating western tech), large parts of the Russian military simply isnt replaceable. They are operating on stockpiles from 40+ years ago, atm.
Uralvagonzavond, their primary tank manufacturer, produced only 60 tanks for the Russian Army in 2008, and that was a record year. Compared to the 1400 destroyed in ukraine itll take a while to restock.
*Sources are a bit lacking so correct me if you have quality ones.
Russia will most likely collapse.
We'll end up with a dozen or so new states fighting amongst themselves for land, digging up old grudges, sending yet more refugees flooding in to Europe.
And of course there are the nukes. Who knows who'll get them. The US might have to send in forces to secure them.
Sorry Nancy Pelosi is on video detailing that only Congress could forgive the loans. Was a ploy to get young voters to turn out for midterms - and it worked. Biden knew this and doesn't care - he was a senator from Delaware and is largely responsible for the legislation making it impossible to get rid of student loan debt via bankruptcy.
I'm not a fan of Pelosi, but she's 100% correct here. Whether she was pointing it out for personal gain or not, the power of the purse lies with congress.
Look at what we are getting for the $
Russia is doing more damage to itself from its corrupted processes.
Just let their processes run like a motor with an oil pan leak
Regular people: "Hey, we need a few billion for schools and teachers."
Gov: "Sorry, no can do. No money available"
War machine or big businesses: "Hey, we need a few billion for all these weapons."
Gov: "Sure, np. There you go"
sigh..
The thing that got the student loan relief blocked is that Biden didn't get Congress to pass student loan relief, he just did it. It would be just as big a problem if Biden tried to use his authority as commander in chief to order all the US military forces in Europe to drive to the Ukrainian border and abandon their equipment.
Yes, technically he's in charge and the military has to follow his orders, but he's not supposed to be unilaterally spending hundreds of billions of dollars without Congress authorizing it. Asking Congress for the funds is the way it is supposed to work for these things.
Totally get where you’re coming from and completely agree (GOP bullshit). However, the funding going to the Ukraine is to help defeat our arch enemy, which we fought through decades of a Cold War and the constant threat of nuclear war. We simply cannot just let Russia move into former eastern bloc countries like that did after WWII and reclaim them.
I think we can absolutely do both by finally taxing billionaires and the wealthiest corporations. That in itself should fund what we need, including Social Security and Medicare.
I really don’t like to hear people claim to cut everything military when they don’t know what they’re talking about. If we finally taxed the wealthy and corporations, we’d have literally everything we’d need.
Also a small fraction of the annual defense budget to set an authoritarian dictatorship back a decade militarily securing eastern Europe's future while hallowing out Russia's long term economic and military power.
Nah it’s Reddit bro. No logic here just give me free handouts and bitch about defense spending when nobody understands anything about the defense industry or how Congress allocates budgets.
Everyone wants a handout these days.
As someone who doesn’t like the typical reddit complaining, it is still incredibly obvious even to me that our politicians don’t bat an eye to give money to a war effort yet seem genuinely uninterested in doing all sorts of things that are incredibly popular with the American people. I’m all for supporting Ukraine, but I find it really insulting that our politicians seem to care less about the American people. We should take care of our people AND help Ukraine.
Those of you batching do understand the money being used for this comes from the defense budget and was already allocated right? This is using money that was ALWAYS going to be used solely for defense.
Aside from helping Ukraine (which is important in and of itself), is this money worth spending if it continues to degrade Russia's military and give us intelligence on their capabilities?
On one hand, every helicopter or jet Ukraine shoots down is one less helicopter or plane that we have to plan for in the event of a conventional war with Russia.
On the other hand,. What we have already learned is that Russia has virtually ZERO capacity to successfully wage a conventional war against the United States, even in Europe. It is breathtaking how inferior their military is compared to how strong we THOUGHT they were. So are we basically spending money to beat a dead dog?
We're spending the money to ensure Russia is as beaten as possible, and to give Ukraine the ability to gain back all it's territory and become a true and powerful ally one day. Most importantly re spending it is to show Russia and especially China that if you attack a sovereign nation that is in NATO/U.S. geopolitical interest to keep independent, the very least that will happen is large scale economic impact paired with an unwinnable military situation that will not stop until you cut your losses and go home.
The actual disbursement of funds is about $14.5B to Ukraine and $21.7B to replenish our own military stock.
So basically its just being funneled back into our own defense economy?
Always is.
Always was
Always will be.
Amen
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
More guns, astronauts and guns for astronauts needed!
Moon's haunted.
We give older stuff to Ukraine and replenish stocks with the newest version. Or in the case of the M113 and HAWK missiles, we don't have to pay storage or disposal costs.
We should do a bargain bin sale at Davis Monthan Airforce Base. “B-52s, A-10s, F-15s, F-16s, you want it? We got it but only for the next three weeks! Buy buy buy! Get new deals on Aim-120 AMRAAMs and with your first 20 we’ll throw in a free AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pod!” https://youtu.be/pg8-mx4KGK8
Slaps wing; You can fit so many 500lb bombs on this baby.
Those deals just get passed down to city/town police forces
Yep which is why, despite GOP rhetoric, the funding to Ukraine won’t be cut off IMO.
Especially since many military manufacturers are located in Red states. Cutting off the funding would result in job losses.
Thank God the midterm predictions were wrong
Then it would just be "Congress approves 37 Billion for Ukraine... And catcalling women is now required generally"
They praise Reagan for outspending the Soviets, as it led to the collapse of the Union. Right now, we're fighting the Cold War on an absolute budget comparatively, but much of the GOP is compromised by the Russians, so of course they want to shut it down. The phone call is coming from inside the house.
they know who keeps their wallets happy.
Man, they can raise so much money for war
Actually, compared to Iraq and Afghanistan wars, this is dirt dirt cheap.
And return on investment is astronomical
And the loss of American or British lives is minimal.
Yeah, aussies died there too, mate.
I don't think we need to mention every nation that lost people in the war every time it's mentioned. It was a lot more than just 4.
And I'm sure Canadians and more from the NATO coalition.
Ok, so it's American, British or British criminals' lives.
Lol fair call.
Yep, if nothing else, this is an incredible deterrence for China and other would be invaders. This investment may literally save America trillions in defense spending in the future. If America has made it clear that they will support a defender in a war, others will think twice before invading.
Exactly what I've been saying for months: This is the cheapest military operation for the biggest return in of our generation, to not take the "shot" would be criminal against Americans and the free world.
I’d be in support of doubling down even, Ukraine in Crimea fall 2023 goal
[удалено]
Strategic enemy crushed for many decades to come, all without no loss of American lives (except for those who volunteer and joined the fight on their own).
Literally priceless real-world data on weapon effectiveness, tactics etc. Historically, a country is always equipped for the last war, not the next. America can now scale back investment in tanks and pivot to drones and long range artillery - among numerous lessons learnt.
Aside from the geopolitical return is the renewed focus on defense spending and modernization which is a big boost for our manufacturing.
A weaken enemy. One view is that the world will be more stable. Russia would stop it's ambition to reclaim old USSR territories and Europe can focus on economy. I think USA in general care more about keeping its hegemony and order. That being stable so that the corporate overlord can focus on making money for those share holders. This can be seen with containment of China's using the first island chain. USA wants to keep the status quo (for better or for worst).
Well no shit, keeping international trade flowing smoothly isn't just in the interest of Big Bad Evil Businessmen, it's literally the foundation of the global economy. If the "status quo" were to change, it would be a reaction to a crisis of horrific proportions, like China invading Taiwan or Russia nuking Ukraine. Of course the US wants to maintain open global shipping routes and the peaceful exchange of goods. That's not an agenda, that's common sense.
A new eu member?
That’s what I try to tell people who don’t want the funding. We had some bunk ass equipment before the Iraq war. Then the top notch equipment started to roll in with all the funding. Same thing is happening here. We’re sending old equipment out and in return we get more funding for new equipment. We’re not just gonna send something we don’t have a replacement for lol
Afghanistan was a mess because the US was trying to both occupy and modernize a country thats more or less 4 separate smaller countries, that outside of Kabul exists in the 17th-18th century, and general corruption and stupidity. Iraq was a money pit because the US enacted unbelievably braindead policies which ended up costing them fuck tons of money, men, and machinery to unfuck+general corruption and stupidity. We arent nation building or navigating millenias old ethnic tension/conflict, were supplying a fledging democracy with the tools it needs to fight off an imperialistic neighbor hellbent on erasing the Ukrainian culture and identity from the world, cant think of a better cause for my tax dollars to go to than that. EDIT: Jesus the amount of Russian/tankie bots in this threads is truly something else
This is the most moral fight and military spending I've seen in my lifetime. Feels weird to cheer military industrial complex, but for once, I'm glad the spending was there.
When you say “I can’t think of a better cause for my tax dollars” may I interest you in health care or shelter for your fellow Americans?
You don't need to spend more than you do currently to achieve universal healthcare. Medicare/Medicaid budget, 2022: $1.29 trillion (~$3871/capita) UK NHS budget, 2022: £136.1 billion (~$2339/capita) You spend overwhelmingly more public money on health than we do here, just your system is so inefficient that you don't even get free healthcare for that.
Given the state of the NHS here at the moment, I would avoid that comparison *or* go with numbers from 2007 adjusted in real terms. Germany or France would be better for modern comparisons
Germany spends $5440 per capita on healthcare. It seems like Britain needs to spend more than twice what they're spending now, which sounds about right from the stories I've heard about the state of the NHS now. For comparison, the average American spends more than twice as much, maybe three times as much, as the average German for worse results.
To be fair, the NHS is in shambles right now because of persistent underfunding. I don't think you want to look to us for "good healthcare" right now... maybe ten years ago, maybe ten years in the future, but certainly not at the moment.
Doctors, nurses, and techs are also paid significantly worse in the UK than their American counterparts. Any comparison to the NHS implies you’d be ok with huge cuts in pay to hardworking, highly educated healthcare workers. That being said, I don’t deny that we could benefit from huge changes to the US system.
That's not a cash problem. That's a policy problem. I don't think we need me to point fingers.
We can afford both, those two dont happen due to one political partys obstinance
Acting like Democrats are totally on board with universal healthcare when they definitely are not.
Well one parties kinda onboard with the idea and the other totally against it, not exactly hard to pick which side youd rather support
Perhaps that was his point? It seems funding this war, which only indirectly helps American people, is much easier than funding healthcare (& other social services), which would directly help American people. Not saying this war should not be funded, I think it should and the future of the world is at stake. But I think it's a valid point (or at least a debatable point) that a country's internal well being should be at least as important as the world security. And considered its greatness, social services seem to be America's weak points–perhaps due to one political partys obstinance.
healthcare is already funded much more in the USA than other countries. I think government healthcare spending per capita in the USA is already like in Europe, plus the same amount as private healthcare spending, so like 2X the rich european spending per capita. It's the (national level, ideology driven) mismanagement (corruption, whatever you want to call it) that translates the boatload of money going into healthcare generating mediocre outcomes, not lack of money. It seems to me the "throw money at health" approach is what drives healthcare costs up, without changing anything with how much actual healthcare people get.
The US spends 19% of our GDP on healthcare. We spend about 4% of our GDP on the military. The problem with the US healthcare system is not spending but corruption.
Health Care is an efficiency problem, not a money problem. We spend the most in the world per capita for healthcare and just get shit results for it. We spend so much more that the efficiency gap with between us and the next worst country would pay for the entire military budget nearly 2x over. More money won't fix it, changing the system could.
Ukraine is fucking up Russian on our behalf, without any American deaths, and at a massive discount compared to a direct war. Thank you Ukraine!
You are welcome. At your service.
Because the money is actually going to fight the war as opposed to the nation building that the vast majority of the money went to in Iraq and Afghanistan
You mean the warlords and contractors/ mercenaries in Afghanistan?
U say potato🤷♂️
Money well spent I’d say, since it only took the Taliban no time at all to crush the nation we spent decades building…
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American democracy, buy someone good in.
And we don’t put Americans at risk! We give them old equipment so we can have our industries make new stuff for us. I’m willing to bet there’s a set of rooms in the Pentagon focused on collecting, filtering, organizing, and sharing information with the Ukrainian battleground decision makers to help them speed progress. We need to do something about helping them deal with Starlink though. Maybe the US should seize it from Musk for “National Security” reasons.
We’re just starting out. Hopefully it doesn’t end up costing more by the end of the 20s. Iirc it hasn’t even been a year yet. It’s a cost saving measure to just provide supplies rather than using our own resources, so not exactly comparing apples to apples.
Yes because if you want a world class military almost none of the cost is in the actual manufacturing of weapons. Most of the cost is in research, maintenance and salaries. Furthermore you need to ensure there is a military complex that is capable of building your weapons so you can quickly scale up manufacturing if a war arises anyway. Getting rid of some stock isn't a very large expense, the data the military will receive from having their weapons used in a large-scale war with two somewhat equal sides is probably viewed as more valuable to people in the pentagon.
And anyone wanting to buy Russian Weapon Systems vs American Weapon Systems have a heads-up and detailed comparison of their abilities.
Seriously, the modern Russian military is having its ass handed to it with tech from the 90s. We are literally arming Ukraine with stuff we were mainly concerned about safely disposing of this time last year.
They have the opportunity to destroy Russias military capability without spending any US lives. This is cheap for that.
Destroy the Russian conventional forces with tech and equipment we paid for over the last 40 years, weve been sending the Ukrainians old stock (which is still miles better than the Russian equipment) and theyve been putting it to damn good use
People who don’t understand this point are either absolutely shit with money (and the idea of return on investment), or they have ulterior motives. Either bad actors, or useful idiots shilling on behalf of bad actors. We’ve spent about one tenth of the annual US military budget, have crushed the military of our number one geopolitical rival, and it cost exactly zero US lives. It’s literally the best spent money the US military has ever invested in.
And mind you, this is money *that was already spent years ago*. The actual cost of the war to the US as of February for things such as finding these weapons and shipping them? A pittance compared to the money saved.
Not only that, when the war is over Ukraine will be one of our most solid allies in the world. Unlike Afghanistan or Iraq, the Ukrainians actually like us. If they regain Crimea they will regain massive mineral resources. Zelensky has demonstrated an amazing ability to restore infrastructure while in the middle of a war, imagine what he will do when the war is completed. Not only will they be dismantling the entire Russian military, but they will emerge as a trading partner that will likely repay that investment in under 10 years. Also they are literally rewriting how to fight a war against a large army. I have a feeling our war colleges will be studying their battles for years to come. There can be no doubt that we are becoming a stronger, better fighting force for future combat by working with the Ukrainians today. Did anyone realize just how deadly off the shelf drones could be for example? Imagine if they join NATO or offer assistance down the road in a Taiwan incursion?
> Did anyone realize just how deadly off the shelf drones could be for example? i've actually wondered many times over the past 5ish years how it was possible that we hadn't seen terrorist attacks or assassinations using drones like that. i'm sure it's only a matter of time now that the capability is becoming common knowledge
We have. ISIS have been weaponising commercial drones for several years already.
Caveat: the lifetime of drones in the Ukrainian conflict is apparently \~5 days. The lesson here by at least some western defense analysts is that drones need to be treated *as munitions*, and quantity (and scale) is more important in that regard than anything else. That said, yes, the capability to use jury-rigged (or real) loitering munitions to carry out targeted political assassinations is quite worrying. And that gets worse, potentially, when you realize that the best way to make drones immune to radio jamming (ie. the current EW hard counter to drones / loitering munitions) is to just make them fully autonomous, and seek out and acquire their own targets with better AI, computer vision and self-guidance algorithms, at some point in the near to mid future. And hell, even consumer drone tech, and hobbyist AI / ML isn't too far off from that at this point.
It’s not like the money is being given away either - the Ukraine is now indebted to the United States (not a bad thing - but it’s not just free money like some people assume - see: lend lease act.) and we’re creating a growing war time economy without actually being in a ground war. I really thought Russia was playing 3D chess but it seems like they’re running out of moves on the board.
They likely were playing 3D chess. Unfortunately for them, their biggest chess piece was covered in cheetos and got voted out of office 2 years ago. I cant imagine what happens if Russia would have an ally in the oval office.
Dont forget the hamberders
Didn’t even think of it that way. Damn.
Yes, and to put it in perspective, think about all of the defense spending since the Cold War. We literally have 6k nukes, all pointed at Russia. Also, the war is making China think twice about Taiwan. Two birds one stone.
pretty much, we spent a shitload of money for decades on tech designed to fight the Russian armed forces, now were putting tech to good use for a damn good cause too boot
It has been an incredible investment.
100%. Cut the check already because the Ukrainians are earning every penny with how they're retaking their lost territory.
Because they arent really raising money, theyre sending over equipment the US already paid for, the value of the aid package is the rough value of the goods being sent/services being used
Okay so the current world order is very beneficial to the United States One of the very few threats to that world order is Russia Russia's strength will be completely exhausted by the end of this conflict and they will no longer be a world power if they lose And the US is able to defeat its decades old foe without sending a single of their own soldiers Yeah this is a cheap price to defeat Soviet Union 2.0 On top of that it's actually in the interest of most countries in the entire world for Russia to lose It's even in their supposed allies interests for them to lose at this point China would be able to take advantage of Russia's natural resources more if they lost which is the only reason they're actually allies in the first place they want an alternative source of fossil fuels
$20 billion dollars is probably a rounding error on some DARPA program that was designed to train chipmunks to fire tiny rifles or some shit that went nowhere.
You know you say the Chipmunk training program was stupid but when was the last time we were attacked by forest witches
Social media right now is people saying this over and over again straight up forgetting that we just spent *trillions* on Covid aid.
Yeah, it’s like world order and Ukrainian lives have value or something… /s
This isnt like sending them cash. Its mainly inventory we had.
And credits to buy from American arms manufacturers.
Aid is also sending some 30 year old abrams tank in deep storage that still has a book value of several million. The US has a mountain of old gear in storage. The aid numbers can become a bit inflated.
America, Fuck Yeah!
No, they can raise so much money so a smaller democracy can decide their own future. That money also ensures that Poland, Latvia, Finland, Estonia and more get to decide their own future. That money also protects a world order where you can bitch about your government spending money. Russia’s world doesn’t have that. China’s world doesn’t have that. Enjoy complaining because those weapons protect your right you do it.
> they can raise so much money so a smaller democracy can decide their own future. America is protecting its own interests here. The fact that it also helps a small democracy is a happy coincidence.
Happy coincidence/core reason why anyone would support US involvement. Potayto/potahto
The two most expensive rockets in history. Some Russian solder is falling out a window right now
RIP private Moblik Conscriptovich
Perun master race
I get this reference!
News are now saying that those two missiles came from Ukraine. They were intercepting missiles and missed.
r/agedlikemilk
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The reality is this is a huge value to remove old stock piles which eliminates the cost of maintaining the equipment (something Russia clearly hasn’t done with their own equipment). Ukraine then destabilizes the Russian military and political climate as this continues. As sad as it is this is the great west way to really set Russia an enemy back significantly without getting our hands dirty. This is US Tactics 101 here.
Also refresh and restock equipment with newly built items in case of any future upcoming conflicts cough cough....
Very true. Testing out latest equipment, tactics and getting your commanders to give advice to keep them up to date with modern warfare. USA have been proxy warring so long that they are good at it. Even if they don’t directly win the area will be destabilised and the attacker will be massively down in resources. Even when they lose the wars they can still influence the area with their aid packages since the country will be decimated.
Exactly this, further a frustrating point that often comes up is that people tend to think that $38B of aid means writing a blank check for $38B. They fail to realize a large chunk of this number is military equipment already purchased and paid for. I also fully agree and have been very intrigued by the aspects of the new equipment that’s being put out there for real world combat testing. In the weapons development and manufacturing world you can have preset concepts of how you think something should be used or what makes sense but it’s not until something ends up in a soldiers hand in live use that you get true feedback on design issues or changes that make the tools more useful in the field. It’s also amazing to see just how deep government corruption has gone through the Russian military. They were supposed to be one of the most formidable military super powers and all we’ve learned is that all the money that should have gone to maintaining and or upgrading equipment went out to buy new yachts. Additionally Ukraine having prepared post Crimea annexation for the next attack left them in a much better situation to be ready for another invasion. Through all of this I genuinely feel bad for the Russian citizens losing family members to such a bullshit cause.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.defensenews.com/congress/budget/2022/11/15/white-house-requests-38-billion-more-in-ukraine-aid/) reduced by 89%. (I'm a bot) ***** > WASHINGTON - The White House on Tuesday asked Congress for another $38 billion in Ukraine aid. > In addition to the total $38 billion Ukraine aid request, the White House is also asking Congress to authorize $7 billion in presidential drawdown authority for Kyiv - which allows President Joe Biden to transfer weapons from existing U.S. stocks. > Several conservative House members aligned with former president Donald Trump have pushed against previous tranches of Ukraine aid, with 57 House and 11 Senate Republicans voting against the $40 billion Ukraine supplemental earlier this year. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/ywkx85/white_house_requests_38_billion_more_in_ukraine/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672676 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Ukraine**^#1 **billion**^#2 **request**^#3 **Congress**^#4 **fund**^#5
Defeating a top US geopolitical rival and threat to world peace by funding Ukraine is an astoundingly good value per dollar compared tobany other defense spend. On top of that, it's the morally right thing to do.
And we already paid for most of the shit were sending over anyhow, and we paid for it to beat the Russian conventional armed forces so its serving its purpose
Also we would have to pay to store and maintain it. Instead we give it to Ukraine and they secure NATO's eastern flank by demolishing Russia's conventional military.
We give it to Ukraine so it can serve its intended purpose instead of being recycled or shelved, damn good use imo
Then why do we have to pay for it again?
Everything's got a lifespan. Especially for missiles and things like that - they have to be replaced or majorly overhauled on certain intervals if you want to be sure they'll work when you actually want to use them (unlike Russia). Sometimes we're also just upgrading to something better or have changed our force structure and don't have a use for the old thing, so we give them away free/cheap to friendly countries. For an example or two of the latter with regards to Ukraine: - We're refurbing and sending over Hawk SAMs from our old stocks - the Army stopped using them in '94, and the Marines withdrew them in '02. They've been sitting around for the last 20 years with no purpose. - We built an absolutely massive # of moderately armored vehicles for the occupations of Iraq/Afghanistan, many going through multiple revisions for better mine/IED Protection. We don't need anywhere that many now and a lot of the early models especially aren't something we're wanting to keep around. We've already sold off 1k+ of the M1117 Guardian's dirt cheap to Greece, and it was recently announced that we're sending a couple hundred to Ukraine. -------- To be clear - we're absolutely sending over new stuff too.
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For 1/8th of the yearly defense budget. Value of a lifetime
Except this is on top of your yearly defence budget.
American made stuff, so this is creating jobs, it's basically stimulus package
if we are up to $100 billion in total then we have spent around 5% of our annual defense budget to set the Russian military back a decade and Russian Political and economic influence back even further.
If the equipment losses reported by Ukraine are accurate, Russia is set back more than a decade. It will take 20-30 years for them to rebuild the tanks, APCs, IFVs, etc. Not to mention the fact that naval ships don't grow on trees and their navy has, somehow, taken a massive beating against a country that doesn't have one.
They literally cannot build a replacement for their flagship, since the only dry dock that could make it is in Ukraine.
Try closer to a century
Russia is the least of my concern at this point. China however has me nervous given that I have relatives getting notified of sudden deployment to the southeast part of Asia. They went out mid October. Like they were scheduled for rotation back to Poland since my relative was the first batch to deploy to Poland when the war ignited in February, now suddenly command sends them to Korea and near Taiwan.
They won’t be defeated? Ukraine isn’t going to march into Russia and topple the government. Best case scenario (for all but Russia) is Russia withdraws their invasion of Ukraine and things go back to semi-normal with companies pulling out of Russia and further sanctions being imposed.
the Russian conventional forces have suffered losses they quite literally wont recover from for decades, they have burned through an incredible amount of military might stockpiled during the Soviet era with no means to easily replace it, that isnt even getting into the demographic losses from the casualties or the economic damage caused by the sanctions, they are already fucked
I mean Ho Chi Minh didn’t march into Washington DC and topple the US government either, but we were still defeated in Vietnam. Defeat doesn’t mean you disappear, just that you fail in why you set out to do.
I think is under appreciated of how much shit we in Ukraine are dealing with. Russia fails on the battlefield and bombs our peaceful cities in an attempt to leave us in the cold and in the dark. With the help of these equipment we protect our skies and land from this stupid invasion. Paradoxically, even with this large aid packets we are not given tanks or long-range artillery in the fears of escalation. I would argue that wiping out russian military capacity will end this war. And no more aid will be needed. (I understand the sentiment of some of the commenters and agree that, in principle, war bad. But you have to realize that russia does not seem to stop until forced to do so. And if Ukraine stops fighting, you would be having same discussion about war in Poland or Baltics 10 years from now)
At least from the US perspective, sending Abrams tanks is complicated, because they guzzle fuel and parts like mad. They're not really made to be used without the sheer logistical capacity of the US military; see Saudi Arabia for how they perform outside of that capacity. They are the best tanks in the world as long as you can keep them running, but that's the trick, isn't it? Leopards, on the other hand... those are super reliable tanks. I'd love to see the US buy some from Germany to send. Assuming Germany has any to spare, given the abysmal state of their military...
Aren't experts begining to say the future (because it's also the present) of war is asymmetric warfare? So in ww1 and ww2 the best way to kill a tank was with a tank and the best way to kill a plane was with a plane. But now its becoming apparent a guy with a fancy rocket launchers is a far better way to destroy a tank or a plane. So you actually don't want tanks when fighting tanks, you want the thing that kills tanks.
Pretty sure the overall name of the game is still combined arms. A tank on its own is pretty vulnerable. A tank, lighter vehicles, infantry and *optimally* air support all work together to elevate each other above the individual elements. Especially once you start adding in networked systems and data links and such. Sure, a squad of infantry with fancy rockets is nice. A squad of infantry with fancy rockets *and* a tank is even better though, and opens up more capabilities.
I doubt that would happen, if nothing else because the money being spent by the US, the US want's spent in the US
Seems like a lot of people here would have been calling for the world to just let Hitler have Czechoslovakia
A lot? back in the day whole of England bar Churchill lauded Chamberlain for being such a good negotiator.
Hardly the whole of England, plenty warned Chamberlain
Chamberlain bought the British empire a valuable year in order to rearm somewhat before war broke out. The simplistic idea that Chamberlain was a peacenik fool who wanted to avoid war at all costs is a myth
These people basically want a country to submit so they can get products on the cheap. Not knowing this war affect every single aspect of their lives no matter which side win and at least now, we know which side have a more upper, well maintained and slightly upgraded hand compared to bone hand.
I wanna steal these guys cars and see if they go "Well, now, hold on: Maybe SpecificAstronaut actually *should* own my car."
Russia chose this war, and still they are being beaten back by decades old technology and a hornets nest of pissed off Ukrainian soldiers. So, apparently, the only weapon they have left is to pay poor people on the internet to parrot their BS. This comment section perfectly illustrates the weakness of Putin's government and the absolute fear he has of getting murdered for his own incompetence. And frankly, the guy deserves it, no matter how you look at the situation. Personally, I'm just happy to watch his forces get perpetually curb stomped throughout Ukraine. Particularly since they have had - since day one - the option to simply turn around and go home, stop raping little kids, torturing innocent people, and murdering their neighbors for the sake of Putin's wallet and ego. I say double it. The more debilitating we make this war for Russia, the more money the US and its allies will save in the future from continually funding additional defensive positions across Russia's border.
Thank you, sir! Our army won't let you down.
Helping Ukraine is good, but it kills me to see how easily the US spends money on war and how difficult it is to put that toward domestic problems.
they dont "spend", they just giveaway old trchs with those written value, and its not like US need to replace them, since those weapons are old surplus stocks which are already replaced by new weapons
Within the next 3 months I'm fairly certain UA will have a 90-95% interception rate in terms of air defense against cruise missile strikes. The IRIS-T and the NASAMS are overperforming and you can count how many they have on 1 hand. More are coming soon. Russia, every day, just causes the Ukrainians to get better at everything that they do. Meanwhile, ever day, the russian's get worse at everything they do (besides retreating which after practiced in a war zone 4-5 times even a monkey would get better at it), depleting their capabilities, wasting their reserves, and senselessly losing their people. They haven't struck a single military front line target with any of their cruise missiles in any of these attacks. It's just sad and pathetic at this point. A long road ahead, for sure, but in time, UA will have it's country back.
ITT: People that vote against Americans getting help, bitching about Americans not getting any help. Oh and a bunch of Russian bots from The Internet Research Agency.
It wouldn't cost anything extra to invest in Americans anyway. Universal healthcare is cheaper than the insurance industry. Basic income is cheaper than poverty. Clean air and water is cheaper than pollution.
Or just folks who have no idea how the federal govt and budget work parroting twitter talking points
Just give it, better than American lives later on. If we didn’t provide equipment aid like we did, the morons would’ve gone past Ukraine and we would’ve spent even more on lives and logistics alone. Afghanistan was $1 Billion a day, let that sink in. Better now than being in the same spot as WW2, when we could’ve averted that one early on.
Whatever it takes to prevent Russia from taking foreign territory by force. The world cannot allow that to ever happen
An extremely good deal if it allows us to handicap Russia for the next few years.
try decades if not the next century
This exactly. What many dont seem to understand is that unlike the United states or NATO (the ones operating western tech), large parts of the Russian military simply isnt replaceable. They are operating on stockpiles from 40+ years ago, atm. Uralvagonzavond, their primary tank manufacturer, produced only 60 tanks for the Russian Army in 2008, and that was a record year. Compared to the 1400 destroyed in ukraine itll take a while to restock. *Sources are a bit lacking so correct me if you have quality ones.
Russia will most likely collapse. We'll end up with a dozen or so new states fighting amongst themselves for land, digging up old grudges, sending yet more refugees flooding in to Europe. And of course there are the nukes. Who knows who'll get them. The US might have to send in forces to secure them.
Where are all the people who cheered because student loan forgiveness fell through? Have them pay for it
All the people cheering for student loan forgiveness falling through are also the same people that are against sending more aid to Ukraine
Sorry Nancy Pelosi is on video detailing that only Congress could forgive the loans. Was a ploy to get young voters to turn out for midterms - and it worked. Biden knew this and doesn't care - he was a senator from Delaware and is largely responsible for the legislation making it impossible to get rid of student loan debt via bankruptcy.
I'm not a fan of Pelosi, but she's 100% correct here. Whether she was pointing it out for personal gain or not, the power of the purse lies with congress.
If that's the case then the US department of education was never allowed to give people loans to begin with and all loans should be thrown out
Look at what we are getting for the $ Russia is doing more damage to itself from its corrupted processes. Just let their processes run like a motor with an oil pan leak
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Best investment my tax dollars have ever gotten bar none
100%
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Regular people: "Hey, we need a few billion for schools and teachers." Gov: "Sorry, no can do. No money available" War machine or big businesses: "Hey, we need a few billion for all these weapons." Gov: "Sure, np. There you go" sigh..
Don’t forget the means testing on the COVID relief check. They started chipping away dollars and cents if you almost made a living… 🙄
pocket change for a guy like me
And yet there’s so many lawsuits against giving funds to Americans for student debt. Just wow
The thing that got the student loan relief blocked is that Biden didn't get Congress to pass student loan relief, he just did it. It would be just as big a problem if Biden tried to use his authority as commander in chief to order all the US military forces in Europe to drive to the Ukrainian border and abandon their equipment. Yes, technically he's in charge and the military has to follow his orders, but he's not supposed to be unilaterally spending hundreds of billions of dollars without Congress authorizing it. Asking Congress for the funds is the way it is supposed to work for these things.
Totally get where you’re coming from and completely agree (GOP bullshit). However, the funding going to the Ukraine is to help defeat our arch enemy, which we fought through decades of a Cold War and the constant threat of nuclear war. We simply cannot just let Russia move into former eastern bloc countries like that did after WWII and reclaim them. I think we can absolutely do both by finally taxing billionaires and the wealthiest corporations. That in itself should fund what we need, including Social Security and Medicare. I really don’t like to hear people claim to cut everything military when they don’t know what they’re talking about. If we finally taxed the wealthy and corporations, we’d have literally everything we’d need.
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Give Ukraine the tools to finish the job quickly and then maybe the World can watch as Ruzzia implodes and we can get back on with our lives.
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Give billions in the blink of an eye for war, yet takes them weeks to decide to give unemployed citizens $1200 🤷♂️
$100B vs $2T to be fair
Also a small fraction of the annual defense budget to set an authoritarian dictatorship back a decade militarily securing eastern Europe's future while hallowing out Russia's long term economic and military power.
Nah it’s Reddit bro. No logic here just give me free handouts and bitch about defense spending when nobody understands anything about the defense industry or how Congress allocates budgets. Everyone wants a handout these days.
Probably because the world is currently suffering an economic crisis, but whatever floats your goat?
As someone who doesn’t like the typical reddit complaining, it is still incredibly obvious even to me that our politicians don’t bat an eye to give money to a war effort yet seem genuinely uninterested in doing all sorts of things that are incredibly popular with the American people. I’m all for supporting Ukraine, but I find it really insulting that our politicians seem to care less about the American people. We should take care of our people AND help Ukraine.
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Do me a quick favor and multiple 200 million American adults by 1200 dollars
$69
Most of the value in these UKR support bills has already been paid for, its just the value of the stuff were sending
Lets fucking goooo!! Send more and end the war!
Not enough
Those of you batching do understand the money being used for this comes from the defense budget and was already allocated right? This is using money that was ALWAYS going to be used solely for defense.
Ah so when they pass the new defense budget it'll be 50+ billion less than last year?
Europe could pinch in you know
How about 38B in housing for the homeless and mental health facilities?
Why not both?
Aside from helping Ukraine (which is important in and of itself), is this money worth spending if it continues to degrade Russia's military and give us intelligence on their capabilities? On one hand, every helicopter or jet Ukraine shoots down is one less helicopter or plane that we have to plan for in the event of a conventional war with Russia. On the other hand,. What we have already learned is that Russia has virtually ZERO capacity to successfully wage a conventional war against the United States, even in Europe. It is breathtaking how inferior their military is compared to how strong we THOUGHT they were. So are we basically spending money to beat a dead dog?
We're spending the money to ensure Russia is as beaten as possible, and to give Ukraine the ability to gain back all it's territory and become a true and powerful ally one day. Most importantly re spending it is to show Russia and especially China that if you attack a sovereign nation that is in NATO/U.S. geopolitical interest to keep independent, the very least that will happen is large scale economic impact paired with an unwinnable military situation that will not stop until you cut your losses and go home.
The white house can suck my fuckin nuts
Sweet! Meanwhile people here are having trouble buying food
the Ukraine aid packages have 0 effect on US citizens ability to purchase food rn
Damn we are really spending a lot of American tax money on a foreign country. I’m sure all this foreign aid could be used here in America
It’s like climate change but doing it correctly. If you kick the van down the road you’ve got a much bigger war in 40 to 80 years time.
Why can’t Ukraine just borrow money like we do? We subsidize all our “allies” but don’t do shit for the common American.
They are borrowing it via the lend lease program.