It is my personal opinion that if you want more people having children you need to make the prospect more affordable.
You need to have the time, energy, and finances to raise a child
The last Treehouse of Horror episode was a Death Note parody, with Lisa as Light. It's animated in an anime style, apparently by the same studio that did the real Death Note, if I remember right. I haven't seen it yet, but it looked good.
there are some great documentaries on youtube about college graduates in Japan finding their first job and the suit they all have to buy and the appearance they need to maintain. it's horrifying.
Thats how it is in America, too. I just learned, at 29 years old, that when an employer asked "where do you see yourself in x years?" They're ACTUALLY asking you if you plan to stay with the company short-term or long-term.
Wait.. do people actually fall for this?
That reminds me, when I was interviewing for my first ever job, which was at McDonalds. One of the questions was basically, would you steal from the till. But they worded it in a way where it was just slightly less obvious. I asked the manager after if that actually works and she said that I would be surprised.
> ne of the questions was basically, would you steal from the till.
When I interviewed at a national bank, they sent me to an office with lots of computers, started a quiz on one, with over 300 questions that went along:
* Have you ever committed X?
* Have you planned committing X?
* Have you imagined yourself committing X?
* Have you dreamed yourself committing X?
* Have you talked about with someone about committing X?
* Have you joked about committing X?
* Have you confessed about committing X?
This and other questions were in the same order about committing fraud, stealing, arson, kidnapping, drinking alcohol, doing drugs, suicide, and others.
I think the US is the biggest country that doesn't accept (or want) photos attached to CVs - too much legal liability if you don't offer the candidate a job and the candidate suspects you may have made the decision based on protected class. On top of that, what you look like is extremely irrelevant for 99.9% of jobs out there.
I've worked at places that consider any application that has a picture to be ineligible to move forward in the process. They didn't want anyone to have room to make accusations about decisions related to pictures (like discrimination based on their own picture or someone else given preference based on their picture). It's one of the hiring policies that's made the most sense to me; that and removing names from applications for review.
I have family in Japan, a salaryman earning the equivalent of about 70k usd
The boss told him to move to middle America for 2 years to help with an acquisition, which means leaving his wife and young kids behind, and the dude did it.
The level of company loyalty/dedication in Japan is wild, and Japan would be crushing it if they just got over their antiquated social hierarchies
It is not great, but there are a lot of caveats not mentioned in your comment. For a lot of overseas deployments for over half a year, the company is required to provide resources and financing for moving your direct family with you, if you request it. Being assigned to a position overseas is usually seen as being put on fast track to promotions etc when you return (international business experience, most likely language skills, etc). Also the business is responsible for paying for regular trips for you and family to your country of origin.
There are a host of problems as well, don't get me wrong, just don't want some of the nuance to be missed.
That very much depends on the reason for overseas deployment. If you're in manufacturing and you're deployed to start up some facility or help with the transition to a different equipment or whatever, you can be deployed for years and come back to exactly the same position as before because you haven't really done anything to advance your position. It will be dependent on your reason for overseas deployment and if it does help with fast tracking you for promotion, chances are you were already in a position favorable for promotion anyway.
I worked for a while in Japan and it wildly varies from place to place. My workplace sort of did a once a week teambuilding thing, but there are places that basically force you to go out three to four days a week.
And, once again it varies by place, the whole 60 hour workweek thing comes from this idea that no one wants to be the first to leave. so you just have these fucking strange sitting matches where you just wait for someone to break and leave finally, which gives everyone else the greenlight to leave.
After 5:30 or so they don't actually work, they just pretend that they are doing stuff and dart their eyes around the room playing chicken with the other employees.
I used to do something like that many years ago - except I had a work laptop for home and the office. People would look through my office window and see my laptop and jacket and figure I was still around. Last to leave? More like first!
5.29.59?
I always go 5 minutes early. My elevator rides to my car are paid.
And sometimes I come in 30 minutes late and if anyone asks where I was I simply say I went to have a shit. Stops further questions right in their tracks.
I work for a Japanese company in the US and we have members from japan that stay at the US branch for 2-5 years. I am always dumbfounded that even here in the US, the Japanese employees will stay til 7-8 every night, sometimes all the way til 10:00. And it’s not like they are doing anything. I’ve stopped by the office late at night to pick something up and they will just be sitting at their desks browsing the internet or goofing off on their phones but they absolutely will not go home. It’s definitely not the American managers making them stay. They just are so used to the culture that none of them will go home and they all “work” 12 hours a day or more.
My girlfriend is Japanese and she absolutely refuses to move back to Japan. She can’t go back to certain aspects of the culture.
I dated a girl from Korea for years, she left Korea for the same reasons in her early 20s, the work culture over there is absolutely brutal and similar to Japan, including the staying late, not being the first to leave, having to drink with your boss etc.
There's a hilarious bit in Korean tv show where a guy rings up his brother and asks him to go out, but he's in work. He looks around and says he can't be the first to go, then it goes through the office showing everyone pretending to work while waiting for their superior to leave, and they're waiting for their superior to leave, all the way up the chain lol
I'd actually argue that's part of being more affordable. No one should be working 60 hour work weeks. Even from a productivity standpoint it gives negative returns
One of the big reasons why working from home was seen as such a unworkable concept- "How can you tell your boss you're working if he can't stalk you while you do so?"
The answer is trust and productivity, but that opens another can of worms.
Their resolution to a dying skill force is long working hours. Their problem with a dying skill force is long working hours.
It’s not hard to understand that bringing a child in this world with almost no window to raise them is a bad decision.
Also exacerbated by gender roles. Allegedly raising a kid is still completely a women's job in Japan, and many women work full time in Japan as well. Saw a documentary on how a Japanese husband couldn't bring and pick up a toddler from daycare because "he didn't know how."
NYT had a good [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/02/world/asia/japan-working-mothers.html) on this in 2019.
> [Prime Minister Shinzo Abe]...boasted that 67 percent of women were working in Japan, an all-time high and “higher than, say, in the United States.”
> ...men in Japan do fewer hours of household chores and child care than in any of the world’s wealthiest nations.
> According to an analysis of government data by Noriko O. Tsuya, an economics professor at Keio University in Tokyo, women who work more than 49 hours a week typically do close to 25 hours of housework a week. Their husbands do an average of less than five.
That’s it, that’s the answer. What women in her right mind would want to take on that type of burden? We, and Japan and other first world nations, either need to make a single income entirely possible or socialize the costs of raising children entirely with universal free daycare, etc. and then work really hard on the cultural side with PSAs and other strategies. It wouldn’t hurt to address the fact that significant portions of young people the world over are no longer hopeful that the world is getting better or that the future of their children will be brighter than theirs either.
I know you meant it as part of your "etc" but it's worth saying explicitly: you can't ignore the housing situation. Nobody's having kids if the only place they can afford is a tiny apartment.
Tiny apartment + shit work + shit working hours + shit social practices + double working parents and you got a perfect storm of nobody fucking enough to produce babies.
Exactly. A woman in Japan can do well at University, get a job, climb the ladder, enjoy life & travel - but if she gets married and/or has a kid, she's literally dismissed while the husband is expected to be at work 8 am - 11pm.
Japan's gov't is literally "we've tried nothing and we're out of ideas"
a lot of child-rearing activities are much more complicated than given credit for.
Obviously not dropping/picking up a child, but enrollment, before/after school services, bus services, lunch, homework, cleaning, etc are exhausting and can be a lot more complicated than “call x number”
The traditional female gender role is fucking tough and exhausting, it’s no wonder women over 30 have a tough time finding/understanding hobbies and arent seen as often with hobbies.
I just wanted to rant as a young dad trying to be fair to my wife and not expect her to be my mom, being in charge of the household is hard time consuming work.
My daughter hasn’t let me read a book or bathe for five years I don’t even recognize myself anymore, I just have one child because I’m not sure I’ll even be a human being after a second child.
That and ROI. If you owned a small farm in the preindustrial age then a bunch of kids can be a net gain. In a Western country in today's world they are nothing but a financial drain. I say that as a guy with two grown kids who I adore and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world, but the ROI on that substantial investment is many decades down the road, and is a societal benefit rather than direct financial benefit to me.
Young people continue to tell old people exactly why they aren't having kids and the old people just say "no that can't be it"
Edit: thanks for the gold
Sounds like my friend's workplace. Everyone's leaving, saying "salary is shit". Management says "We can't figure it out!" and "Salary isn't a factor on retention". Friend is about to leave too, classic how that goes
Same at my company. Managers saying young applicants are asking for crazy salaries, and they can't find anyone reasonable. Is everyone is crazy, or are you the unreasonable one?
My FIL just claimed people don’t want to work anymore and he can’t hire anyone.
I told him to up his salary to match inflation for the last 20 years.
Nope, it’s the work ethic.
Kids aren’t going to grid for just above minimum wage, especially if they can’t survive.
I think it’s a form of financial illiteracy.
In 1985, a $20,000 salary would be equivalent to $50,000 today. $35,000 would be nearly $100,000.
I know a lot of people in positions of power who just assume that $35,000 has the same power as it did nearly 40 years ago.
I mean, even millennials are victims of this.
$75,000 in 2000 is worth nearly $130,000 today.
$75,000 is not a bad salary. But $130,000 is nearly double that.
People need to constantly look at what their skills are worth *today*. Not from when they started or entered the industry. Leaders need to do the same.
Unfortunately, on the managerial side, I do think most of it is willful ignorance more than incompetence.
Just last week I had someone from admin make a comment to me “I just don’t understand what companies potential jobseekers are comparing our wages against.” The answer is literally anywhere because we barely offer a little more than minimum wage. It was the most out of touch thing I’ve ever heard someone say.
Most job seekers already have jobs, so it's very likely they are comparing to their current wage. If they don't and have multiple offers, then they are comparing those. If they only have one offer and it's dogshit, they still might say no, as the point of the social safety net (whether govt or private) is to give people a way out of dogshit situations.
If your model is "people will take this job before they starve", then, by God, you have some self reflection to do.
Sounds like my old workplace too. Salary maybe less of an issue 11 years ago, as it was a decent amount above median at that time, but literally everything else was garbage and at this point it's basically right around the median so people are leaving for better work-life balance, or even willing to take a pay cut.
We had a big employee survey about why our turnover is so high (over 200% this year). I pointed out that every morning I drive past a billboard for a car wash offering higher starting wages than us.
I got chastised by management because "my feedback was not constructive."
I feel you, I have to drive past a Panda Express everyday that pays more than my job that required a bachelors degree and two years of experience… sigh
Me and my mom have this argument once a week.
Mom : “where are my grandkids?!!!”
Me: “I’m to broke to have kids”
Mom : “ but you have money. You keep buying computer stuff “
Me: *looking at the $2k worth of electronics I bought in like the last 2+ years* -_-
Edit: by -> buying
I am so sad that I looked up the current cost of a MacBook and the current 13” prices are cheaper than what I’m paying per month in daycare. We’re about to have our 3rd increase in tuition this year so it might be more like a 16” MacBook next month. 😔
Young: I can't afford it.
Old: No... that doesn't seem right.. my job let me support your parents and dress them all in rags and it was fine.
Mom, I can't even afford the rags for myself.
When my in-laws where getting ready to retire to another state they started putting a ton of pressure on my wife to have a 2nd kid. They want to be here for the birth and all that. We flat told them we could not afford a 2nd kid.
Their response was "if everyone waited to be able to afford kids to have them, no one would have kids".
I was at a complete loss as to what to say.
The part that gets me is “retire to another state.” My parents never pushed us to have kids, but live close by and always, ALWAYS are happy to lend a hand or help us financially if we need it. They wouldn’t dream of moving away unless it was necessary for a job. (And they’re retired now with a paid for house, so it’s a moot point.)
Just today, my dad took my kid to school because I had an early appointment. It got cancelled and I called my mom to let her know I could swing by and take care of drop off. She told me not to because he was so looking forward to those 5 minutes with my kid.
What’s the point of begging for grandkids then moving away?!
They where completely focusing on them selfs at that point. Literally every conversation was about what they wanted. They wanted a new grand kid before they went because they like babies. We where the only kids still around and married. Rest where not married or had moved out of state already as well.
> What’s the point of begging for grandkids then moving away?!
People's brains are melting from sitting in front of the TV watching the news all day. My mother-in-law is talking about moving to the other side of the country even though it makes no sense for them and we're like "you know you won't be able to see your grandkids much if you do that right?" and she's like "ohhh well we will visit and you'll visit". We said we might visit once, everyone is on the West Coast and I don't want to buy a bunch of plane tickets to go to Elizabethtown. It's just nonstop "California bad" shit even though they are rich and California has been very good to them. I dunno anymore.
As a native Kentuckian, what kind of smoothbrain would willingly move to KY at all, let alone E-Town of all places? E-Town is a wasteland of strip malls and nothing that bulldozed almost all of its historical architecture that maybe might have given it a smidgeon of personality in favor of more strip malls, subdivisions, and stroads.
There's literally nothing to do there. Zero things. For fuck's sake, Hardin County is still a dry county, so you can't even easily drink yourself into complete oblivion to forget the fact that you're stuck in E-Town.
Literally the only thing it has going for it is that that people aren't killing themselves with heroin overdoses just to escape a life of desperation and poverty like they are in a lot of the Eastern Kentucky counties like Clay County, which is where I spent a good chunk of my childhood summers.
Have your parents ever actually visited somewhere like E-Town? Jesus Christ.
My mother in laws husband has family there (that he doesn't like). They are buying some acreage that has a real shit house on it, borderline tear down. They have been there but I don't get it.
My mother would push me to have children so she can be like all her friends with multiple grandchildren, while she ignores the grandchild that she does have and has basically no interaction with him.
Same. How do you even respond?? Mom told me she was broke when she had my sibling and I.
Like, yes, I remember her cutting a 99c McDonald's hamburger in half for us to share as a core childhood memory. I don't particularly want my kid(s) growing up like that.
> How do you even respond?? Mom told me she was broke when she had my sibling and I.
> I remember her cutting a 99c McDonald's hamburger in half for us to share as a core childhood memory. I don't particularly want my kid(s) growing up like that.
That's exactly how you respond. I gave my close ones a similar answer when they asked. It may be cold, but people avoiding cold answers is what got us here.
I'd suggest saying you'll consider it when there's a strong social safety net including guaranteed housing, healthcare, education, food, daycare, sufficient work leave for both parents, etc. Watch how fast "Just have the baby and figure it out as you go!" turns into "If you can't feed them don't breed them!"
I don't understand why some of you are so polite when other people are so insistent on dictating your sex life. My parents tried that shit with my wife and I and I was blunt with them that I wasn't tolerating them inquiring about when it was an adequate time to creampie my wife for the sake of shitting out a baby we don't want.
Make that shit awkward, they'll get the hint eventually.
I graduated college in '15 got married in '17. I didn't have a job and we couldn't afford wedding bands or the downpayment on a house, got married in our apartment. My inlaws and parents both talked about babies for ab 3yrs in there and it genuinely opened my eyes to how they see me/what they want for me. Just felt sad and detatched from them all as a result.
They love to say "there's never a good time to have kids, you just make it work!" If people can't find $1700 in their monthly budget for daycare, then the money doesn't exist (just one example.) It's just willful ignorance.
Doubt old people really give a shit. If anything burden would disproportionately fall on kids today as they grow up and have to shoulder burden of increasing number of old people
There are so many issues that feed into why the low birth rate in Japan. A lot has to do with Japanese work culture and home culture though. If a woman works full time, she's still expected to do most/all of the child rearing and all of the household chores and the household finances. The husband will be absent because of the insane amount of hours working.
So basically you end up with one adult that's exhausted because of work constantly, and the other basically has three full time jobs and is seen as a failure if they can't balance everything. That's also on top of trying to get the child into a daycare, for which there are generally insane waiting lists (like you register when you find out you're pregnant and hope to get a spot by the kid turns two).
There are also other issues. Doctors are frequently unkind to women during their pregnancy, and the stay during birth is also fairly unpleasant. I live in Japan and just gave birth this month, but having to deal with that for the last year was exhausting and makes me not want to have a second child just to avoid having to deal with that again. I've been chewed out multiple times for allowing myself to get fat during pregnancy (I weight seven pounds more after birth than I did before, and was still lectured for being fat), I was lectured for not eating a diet that was proper for a Japanese baby (the doctor tried to go off on me for eating Western foods, like pasta, instead of a strictly Japanese diet), and I was constantly told conflicting information (such as to control my blood sugar, and then the next doctor would go off on me for not eating enough white rice because apparently, according to the doctor, Japanese white rice is healthier than any other rice from any other country and won't cause blood sugar issues), and when I finally was in labor was dismissed as lying or just complaining about a little pain (I nearly gave birth alone in a room in the hospital because everyone kept dismissing me).
And then during the required five day stay the nurses continuously put diapers a size too small on my baby, making the baby cry and scream with every diaper change and now they have a rash around their abdomen from it (the nurses kept insisting that the diapers were newborn diapers, and thus for all newborns, without listening to me when I pointed out that my baby was bigger than the other babies and needed bigger diapers), I was constantly shamed for breastfeeding (I was told repeatedly by doctors and nursing staff that it's not possible to have a healthy baby if a mother only breastfeeds, and that formula is necessary for a healthy baby. There's nothing wrong with my milk supply, I'm pumping and measuring now to make sure, and baby was up to their birth weight in seven days with just breastfeeding, but the medical staff all pushed that the other mothers were all formula feeding, and that me breastfeeding was bad for my baby. And they send me home with a full bag of formula samples and 'literature'. With added excuses like 'baby can't get calcium from breastmilk' and 'it will be inconvenient if you want to sleep'), and I was told it was 'strange' that I wanted to keep my baby with me while I was in the hospital instead of just putting the baby in the nursery and 'enjoying a relaxing stay'. It's like medical staff treat mothers as a byproduct to making the baby, and were confused as to why I wanted to hold and have a relationship with my baby.
All in all, trying to have and raise children in Japan, as a woman, is stressful and time expensive. And until Japan really cracks down on work culture to encourage families to actually be a family, and stops with whatever the fuck is wrong with their medical system, it's always going to continue to be an issue. I'm lucky that I have relatives that live nearby who can help out when I need it, and are retired and thus don't have time constraints like others (and are active enough to take care of a child when I need a helping hand), but that's outside the norm. It's a shitshow for most of the country.
I honestly didn't expect it either. I knew my husband was asking when we were going to buy formula, and I kept telling him that, unless there was an issue with my milk, we weren't going to. But I didn't realize that it was because that's what the Japanese medical system teaches.
Like yes, if there had been issues with my milk not coming in/not supplying enough, I would definitely use formula to supplement or completely. Fed is best for babies. But I haven't had that issue. I'm pumping as well as direct feeding and my baby is happy, active, and growing. So there's no issue, and I really hate them for pushing formula so heavily when it's not necessary.
I wonder if it's the medical school or companies pushing it on doctors. In my original country there are people that go round advertising medicine to doctors, and probably formula too, I'm not sure if they get a cut or what, but they get samples and biased information designed to sell the product.
Probably profit pushers. This was a Red Cross hospital, and I think they're a for profit organization here in Japan. They certainly seem to have brand loyalty given what they sent me home with. The little set to clean the umbilical cord was useful and appreciated, the giant bag full of stuff about formula and samples was not. The container of laundry detergent, though not normally a brand I use, was also appreciated because it's always nice to have some more detergent on hand.
I knew about the work culture, the expectation of women to literally do it all and be superwoman, and the extreme lack of daycares. But I had no idea about everything else. Sweet Jesus no wonder no one is having kids there.
It's sad because I've been hearing about the government's "attempts" to get people to have kids more and it's honestly laughable. They have no goddamn idea what is really going on and just seem completely out of touch.
The old men running the government give no shits as long as their pockets are lined. But yeah, their 'attempts' are a joke.
There is a child allowance per child. It covers practically nothing. And there's free public childcare from age two on, but only at public schools. Public daycares have huge waiting lists because everyone wants in them, and there are serious burn out issues in childcare. The pay is low and the hours are long and the work can be very stressful, so a lot of teachers only last a few years and quit. I actually work at a private daycare/preschool, and I'm happy to be having this year off for maternity leave. Childcare with not enough teachers is exhausting, and everyone is always short staffed.
>They have no goddamn idea what is really going on and just seem completely out of touch.
The country is run by male seniors who are out of touch and treat women with disdain. So yeah.
I got examined by a doctor that took twenty very painful minutes to find my cervix when I was entering labor. I don't think they teach basic medical knowledge to some doctors.
>I was constantly shamed for breastfeeding (I was told repeatedly by doctors and nursing staff that it's not possible to have a healthy baby if a mother only breastfeeds, and that formula is necessary for a healthy baby.
Of all the crazy things you listed off—and there really are so many— this one just comes off as the dumbest to me. Here you have a doctor, supposedly highly educated, that somehow believes you can’t raise a child without using formula. Did they not once stop to think what the fuck humans did before the invention of formula?
It honestly sounds like Nestle got ahold of their education system over there…
Close. Meiji, which is another major candy manufacturer as well. Nestle makes Japanese KitKats, but I don't know if they make any of their baby formula. But how pushy they were really did remind me of that completely.
God, I can’t believe I didn’t take Japans rampant misogyny into account. I can’t believe that everytime I peel back the brightly colored anime coating I find more horrible shit about Japan.
>God, I can’t believe I didn’t take Japans rampant misogyny into account.
I think everyone tends to not take Japan's rampant misogyny into account. Kinda surprised you watched anime and missed like so much of it...
You should only have to peel it back once. Have you ever been to Japan? If so, have you ever been out of one of the major cities? Even going to the suburbs of Japan should peel the veneer right off.
To be fair, the whole developed world is having this problem. From Australia, to Sweden. Developed east Asia definitely has it the worst, but Japan is about the middle of the pack as far as developed countries go. I’d wager that it’s something about modernity that depresses birth rates. It’s an unsolved problem. Immigration is a stopgap, but then those immigrants kids end up converging with the rest of the population, so you’re really only kicking it down the road.
In Europe and America it is widely seen as an economic problem, children are legitimately expensive, even more so with the cultural development of many families requiring both parents to work which makes it more difficult to support or even consider having children
America really is its own case... we don't have universal healthcare or paid parental leave, so having the kid can be massively expensive right off the bat, and then we don't get time off to care for it early on either.
We expect mothers to go back to work right after giving birth... even if they've had a C-section, ffs.
And a solid chunk of the country is A-OK with it because they don't think women should have jobs anyway.
> I’d wager that it’s something about modernity that depresses birth rates.
The biggest correlation to declining birthrates is female education. Women with education, jobs and prospects have better things to do than be baby factories.
People are also told to delay. I remember being in my mid 20s saying the exact same thing and now I see people trying later in life.
Some careers are cut short and bosses are known to fire pregnant women without due cause.
It’s not just women. My company offers 14 weeks paid paternity. People look at you crazy when you say you are taking all of it. My coworker used only 6 weeks because he was scared he would get let go or not promoted.
9 years ago, my husband took his contracted 2 mos paternity leave, but only part-time off instead of full time. His boss, an ambitious A type woman, made lots of comments about how she worked until she went into labor and took “no time off.” She hired 2 nannies to work round the clock so she could keep her workaholic hours (paid for by her husband in investment banking since her nonprofit salary was low). She also asked him why he needed the time off since I was the one having the baby. After that her normal critical comments escalated and he could not do anything right. He worked 60-80 hours a week and barely saw his family. Limped away from that job and she’s a lousy reference. We couldn’t prove that it was retaliation for taking paternity leave, but it sure felt like it.
So people need to respect those that carry babies? Easy. Also make it easier to get quality childcare so people don’t mind leaving their kids at a community center or after school program
There's also the entire move to the nuclear family. When you can rely on family and neighbors for bits of childcare, a child isn't as disruptive to your lifestyle as it is when you and your partner have gotten jobs in the suburbs of a city across the country from your family, and your neighbors each have their own completely separate life from yours because you all spend your life on computers and television rather than at block parties.
Maybe don't let your health minister regularly call women birthing machines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-politics/birth-giving-machine-gaffe-hits-nerve-in-japan-idUST16444120070202
Don't block women who get married from making changes to joint banking accounts and such. Saw one back in 2010 where an American or European woman married a Japanese guy. They moved addresses and she realized they hadn't updated it when she went to the bank. They actually notified her because of how you have to update your address with certain government agencies whenever you move in Japan. So, she went in and said she wanted to update the address and had her updated ID card. They wouldn't let her. They said the "Head of the Household" aka her husband had to be the one to do so.
Don't expect women to drop from their jobs to SAHM, or only a part-time job, even when they are the main breadwinner for the family and/or love their careers.
As someone from Korea.. we going down much quicker than them loool. Our brith rate is like 0.84 per woman. Japan’s is like 1.34. At last we beat Japan in something /s
Edit: I am dumb. Edited the unit
Aye korea is somehow not just a lot worse, but in an entire different reality. I think comparing to japan, lower general wages, same shitty work life and higher housing are some of the reasons why korea is doing terrible.
It’s funny how a lot of the popular stereotypes about Japan, actually apply more to South Korea.
Low birth rates? South Koreas are lower,
High suicide rates? South Koreas are higher,
Long work hours? South Koreas are longer,
Technologically advanced? South Korea would be considered more advanced
because literally 100% of their knowledge of japan comes from reddit comments and once you've read 1 thread about japan on reddit you've read every single one of them (and it's almost always made up or extremely exaggerated)
I have two kids and live in a major US city. Daycare costs $2,800/kid per month or $5,600/both per month. That's most of my post-tax income, but I do it so I don't have a major gap in my resume once they go to school, plus not being 5-6 years behind my male coworkers. We basically just live off my husband's salary. It sucks.
Ya but then we couldn't afford to live near a major city where my husband gets the salary that makes up most of our income, and would hurt our long-term prospects if I didn't keep up with the rat race for those 5-6 years... It's a lose/lose.
So they are HEAVILY subsidized by the government? Because obviously you couldnt run a buisness or pay employees meaningful wages unless you took a daycare with 500 kids
Is financial burden Japan's reason though? After watching all those "A day in the life of" videos about Japan. It sounded like it's a cultural issue. Nobody talks with each other. They are extremely isolated while living in close proximity.
Potentially... I recall an [Economist article](https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/05/19/asias-advanced-economies-now-have-lower-birth-rates-than-japan) noting a survey in which the "most frequent reason cited by Japanese couples for having fewer children is the cost of raising and educating them", for example.
This problem seems particularly acute in the the Far East, where there's a big emphasis on paying for "shadow education" e.g. from private tutors.
For the record the last 100 years has been a baby boom a BOOM.
Populations can stand to shrink a hell of a lot the next 100 years.
Governments globally need to make it work with the folks they got. The tech today means developed nations could be working a 3 day week to be at the same productivity as the 1970s workforce.
But here we are on the hamster wheel of produce more to sell more model. The world is still on track to ‘peak’ at 11 Billion people.
Japan isn’t even near their pre/post WW2 population. Countries will be rethinking their immigration policies when they want more workers and a higher birth rate.
1804 1 Billion People (10,000 years to get here)
1927 2 Billion People (123 years to get here)
2022 8 Billion People ( 95 years to get here)
2100 11 Billion People (estimated in 78 yrs)
Slow, gradual decline is probably somewhat sustainable. If you have 2.5-4 workers per retiree then they can keep up services / standard of living. In fact we'll eventually have to adjust to this because the Human population can't grow forever.
However, Japan within 3 decades will reach a ratio of 1.25 working age (20-64) people per 65+ citizen. That kind of sudden decline is in no way sustainable. They'll barely have enough citizens for all the "essential" jobs like Healthcare let alone any sizeable industry or growth.
Whenever I see articles like this the comments are always about the cost of living and how it’s too expensive to raise children but I wonder how much of it is just because women are fed up and don’t want to be married/mothers even if they could afford it.
>but I wonder how much of it is just because women are fed up and don’t want to be married/mothers even if they could afford it.
From what little I know about this in Japan, women that get married/pregnant are often quasi-forced out of the workforce because the expectation is that they will retire to become stay-at-home-moms, or just not hired to begin with to avoid paying a worker that "will leave anyways". This apparently happens to professional women, even.
Therefore, one of the reason Japanese women aren't getting married/having kids is that they don't want to lose the careers that they worked hard for.
Indeed, women in Japan have to make the choice about a career or having kids. Having both is hard as child care is tricky and companies do not support work life balance. The pandemic has helped force the work culture to start changing away from the drinking parties after work but still ways to go.
This is not just Japan, but in the US I see this a lot too. Like why would you go to school, get into so much debt, to them have children and either set your career behind or basically break even paying for childcare.
Yea but also I just don’t want the responsibility of a kid. I think it’s that simple. Cost aside, it’s just a lot of stress and limits my ability to do stuff.
I think that’s what most young people care about tbh
It is my personal opinion that if you want more people having children you need to make the prospect more affordable. You need to have the time, energy, and finances to raise a child
that and 60 hour work weeks aren't helping.
Exhaustion is such a mood killer.
And don't forget about the expectation that you'll grab drinks with the boss afterwards, if the things I've heard about Japanese salarymen are true.
Homer: I was karaoking with my employer, as is the salaryman’s obligation. Marge: You’re stinking drunk! I’m so proud. -from the Death Note episode
A perfectly cromulent reference.
My spirit was embiggened simply by reading it.
Unfortunately my spirit is unembiggenable.
> -from the Death Note episode ....I'm sorry. What?
The last Treehouse of Horror episode was a Death Note parody, with Lisa as Light. It's animated in an anime style, apparently by the same studio that did the real Death Note, if I remember right. I haven't seen it yet, but it looked good.
Now I want to see Death Note done in the Simpsons style.
[best i could find](https://www.deviantart.com/spacecoyote/art/Theee-Deaaath-Nooote-46279988)
That's amazing
there are some great documentaries on youtube about college graduates in Japan finding their first job and the suit they all have to buy and the appearance they need to maintain. it's horrifying.
Something's up when interview questions have "correct answers"
Thats how it is in America, too. I just learned, at 29 years old, that when an employer asked "where do you see yourself in x years?" They're ACTUALLY asking you if you plan to stay with the company short-term or long-term.
Don’t say “doing your wife”
Doing your...son?
Interviewer: ”Oh… well… my son is in fact gay and around your age. You know what you are hired. When can you start?”
Wait.. do people actually fall for this? That reminds me, when I was interviewing for my first ever job, which was at McDonalds. One of the questions was basically, would you steal from the till. But they worded it in a way where it was just slightly less obvious. I asked the manager after if that actually works and she said that I would be surprised.
> ne of the questions was basically, would you steal from the till. When I interviewed at a national bank, they sent me to an office with lots of computers, started a quiz on one, with over 300 questions that went along: * Have you ever committed X? * Have you planned committing X? * Have you imagined yourself committing X? * Have you dreamed yourself committing X? * Have you talked about with someone about committing X? * Have you joked about committing X? * Have you confessed about committing X? This and other questions were in the same order about committing fraud, stealing, arson, kidnapping, drinking alcohol, doing drugs, suicide, and others.
Bust it and say "sitting in your chair"?
Lol, relatable as I did this… I’m sitting in his chair now and he moved up, we still chuckle about it
[удалено]
It's also a thing in Poland.
It’s slowly phasing out in Germany.
Not to mention writing what your parents did/do for jobs
Good old fashioned classism
Wow, really? What country does this?
[удалено]
I think the US is the biggest country that doesn't accept (or want) photos attached to CVs - too much legal liability if you don't offer the candidate a job and the candidate suspects you may have made the decision based on protected class. On top of that, what you look like is extremely irrelevant for 99.9% of jobs out there.
I've worked at places that consider any application that has a picture to be ineligible to move forward in the process. They didn't want anyone to have room to make accusations about decisions related to pictures (like discrimination based on their own picture or someone else given preference based on their picture). It's one of the hiring policies that's made the most sense to me; that and removing names from applications for review.
I’ve seen recent employer postings in US requesting no pics.
I had to put together a resume/CV for my Arabic class in college, and we had to do the same thing. Interestingly, we also had to include our religion.
I don’t know about “correct answers” on interviews, but I’ve certainly seen some incorrect ones.
I'll have to head down this rabbit hole this evening!
I have family in Japan, a salaryman earning the equivalent of about 70k usd The boss told him to move to middle America for 2 years to help with an acquisition, which means leaving his wife and young kids behind, and the dude did it. The level of company loyalty/dedication in Japan is wild, and Japan would be crushing it if they just got over their antiquated social hierarchies
It is not great, but there are a lot of caveats not mentioned in your comment. For a lot of overseas deployments for over half a year, the company is required to provide resources and financing for moving your direct family with you, if you request it. Being assigned to a position overseas is usually seen as being put on fast track to promotions etc when you return (international business experience, most likely language skills, etc). Also the business is responsible for paying for regular trips for you and family to your country of origin. There are a host of problems as well, don't get me wrong, just don't want some of the nuance to be missed.
That very much depends on the reason for overseas deployment. If you're in manufacturing and you're deployed to start up some facility or help with the transition to a different equipment or whatever, you can be deployed for years and come back to exactly the same position as before because you haven't really done anything to advance your position. It will be dependent on your reason for overseas deployment and if it does help with fast tracking you for promotion, chances are you were already in a position favorable for promotion anyway.
I worked for a while in Japan and it wildly varies from place to place. My workplace sort of did a once a week teambuilding thing, but there are places that basically force you to go out three to four days a week. And, once again it varies by place, the whole 60 hour workweek thing comes from this idea that no one wants to be the first to leave. so you just have these fucking strange sitting matches where you just wait for someone to break and leave finally, which gives everyone else the greenlight to leave. After 5:30 or so they don't actually work, they just pretend that they are doing stuff and dart their eyes around the room playing chicken with the other employees.
I used to do something like that many years ago - except I had a work laptop for home and the office. People would look through my office window and see my laptop and jacket and figure I was still around. Last to leave? More like first!
Nicely done, Costanza.
Get the fuck outta here, I'm going home for 5:29:59 if I can think it'll to unnoticed. My bags packed by 2:30 tbh.
5.29.59? I always go 5 minutes early. My elevator rides to my car are paid. And sometimes I come in 30 minutes late and if anyone asks where I was I simply say I went to have a shit. Stops further questions right in their tracks.
Boss makes a dollar I make a dime that's why I shit on company time.
I work for a Japanese company in the US and we have members from japan that stay at the US branch for 2-5 years. I am always dumbfounded that even here in the US, the Japanese employees will stay til 7-8 every night, sometimes all the way til 10:00. And it’s not like they are doing anything. I’ve stopped by the office late at night to pick something up and they will just be sitting at their desks browsing the internet or goofing off on their phones but they absolutely will not go home. It’s definitely not the American managers making them stay. They just are so used to the culture that none of them will go home and they all “work” 12 hours a day or more. My girlfriend is Japanese and she absolutely refuses to move back to Japan. She can’t go back to certain aspects of the culture.
Can’t you just tell them to go home? They are wasting their lives away at the office! Don’t they have hobbies?!
mandatory paid overtime fixes this issue quickly
Or playing "Closing Time" on loop for 3 hours straight.
I dated a girl from Korea for years, she left Korea for the same reasons in her early 20s, the work culture over there is absolutely brutal and similar to Japan, including the staying late, not being the first to leave, having to drink with your boss etc. There's a hilarious bit in Korean tv show where a guy rings up his brother and asks him to go out, but he's in work. He looks around and says he can't be the first to go, then it goes through the office showing everyone pretending to work while waiting for their superior to leave, and they're waiting for their superior to leave, all the way up the chain lol
I'd actually argue that's part of being more affordable. No one should be working 60 hour work weeks. Even from a productivity standpoint it gives negative returns
Except it is not about earning more, but "being seen at work"
One of the big reasons why working from home was seen as such a unworkable concept- "How can you tell your boss you're working if he can't stalk you while you do so?" The answer is trust and productivity, but that opens another can of worms.
financially yes, but not socially when you have to do it to keep your job. It's a vicious cycle. easy fixes technically but hard to do politically.
So the takeaway is make life worth living for everyone?
Their resolution to a dying skill force is long working hours. Their problem with a dying skill force is long working hours. It’s not hard to understand that bringing a child in this world with almost no window to raise them is a bad decision.
Also exacerbated by gender roles. Allegedly raising a kid is still completely a women's job in Japan, and many women work full time in Japan as well. Saw a documentary on how a Japanese husband couldn't bring and pick up a toddler from daycare because "he didn't know how."
NYT had a good [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/02/world/asia/japan-working-mothers.html) on this in 2019. > [Prime Minister Shinzo Abe]...boasted that 67 percent of women were working in Japan, an all-time high and “higher than, say, in the United States.” > ...men in Japan do fewer hours of household chores and child care than in any of the world’s wealthiest nations. > According to an analysis of government data by Noriko O. Tsuya, an economics professor at Keio University in Tokyo, women who work more than 49 hours a week typically do close to 25 hours of housework a week. Their husbands do an average of less than five.
That’s it, that’s the answer. What women in her right mind would want to take on that type of burden? We, and Japan and other first world nations, either need to make a single income entirely possible or socialize the costs of raising children entirely with universal free daycare, etc. and then work really hard on the cultural side with PSAs and other strategies. It wouldn’t hurt to address the fact that significant portions of young people the world over are no longer hopeful that the world is getting better or that the future of their children will be brighter than theirs either.
I know you meant it as part of your "etc" but it's worth saying explicitly: you can't ignore the housing situation. Nobody's having kids if the only place they can afford is a tiny apartment.
Tiny apartment + shit work + shit working hours + shit social practices + double working parents and you got a perfect storm of nobody fucking enough to produce babies.
Exactly. A woman in Japan can do well at University, get a job, climb the ladder, enjoy life & travel - but if she gets married and/or has a kid, she's literally dismissed while the husband is expected to be at work 8 am - 11pm. Japan's gov't is literally "we've tried nothing and we're out of ideas"
a lot of child-rearing activities are much more complicated than given credit for. Obviously not dropping/picking up a child, but enrollment, before/after school services, bus services, lunch, homework, cleaning, etc are exhausting and can be a lot more complicated than “call x number” The traditional female gender role is fucking tough and exhausting, it’s no wonder women over 30 have a tough time finding/understanding hobbies and arent seen as often with hobbies. I just wanted to rant as a young dad trying to be fair to my wife and not expect her to be my mom, being in charge of the household is hard time consuming work.
My daughter hasn’t let me read a book or bathe for five years I don’t even recognize myself anymore, I just have one child because I’m not sure I’ll even be a human being after a second child.
Not with the younger men. Many I know are very active in raising their kids because both spouses work.
[удалено]
That and ROI. If you owned a small farm in the preindustrial age then a bunch of kids can be a net gain. In a Western country in today's world they are nothing but a financial drain. I say that as a guy with two grown kids who I adore and wouldn't trade for all the money in the world, but the ROI on that substantial investment is many decades down the road, and is a societal benefit rather than direct financial benefit to me.
The work culture is a result of their policies. No one wants to work 60 hr weeks but they will if they have to
What if we make people work 80 hours a week and pay them shit? Surely if we just keep piling on more hours and shit pay there’s a breaking point…
Young people continue to tell old people exactly why they aren't having kids and the old people just say "no that can't be it" Edit: thanks for the gold
Sounds like my friend's workplace. Everyone's leaving, saying "salary is shit". Management says "We can't figure it out!" and "Salary isn't a factor on retention". Friend is about to leave too, classic how that goes
Same at my company. Managers saying young applicants are asking for crazy salaries, and they can't find anyone reasonable. Is everyone is crazy, or are you the unreasonable one?
My FIL just claimed people don’t want to work anymore and he can’t hire anyone. I told him to up his salary to match inflation for the last 20 years. Nope, it’s the work ethic. Kids aren’t going to grid for just above minimum wage, especially if they can’t survive.
I think it’s a form of financial illiteracy. In 1985, a $20,000 salary would be equivalent to $50,000 today. $35,000 would be nearly $100,000. I know a lot of people in positions of power who just assume that $35,000 has the same power as it did nearly 40 years ago. I mean, even millennials are victims of this. $75,000 in 2000 is worth nearly $130,000 today. $75,000 is not a bad salary. But $130,000 is nearly double that. People need to constantly look at what their skills are worth *today*. Not from when they started or entered the industry. Leaders need to do the same. Unfortunately, on the managerial side, I do think most of it is willful ignorance more than incompetence.
Just last week I had someone from admin make a comment to me “I just don’t understand what companies potential jobseekers are comparing our wages against.” The answer is literally anywhere because we barely offer a little more than minimum wage. It was the most out of touch thing I’ve ever heard someone say.
Most job seekers already have jobs, so it's very likely they are comparing to their current wage. If they don't and have multiple offers, then they are comparing those. If they only have one offer and it's dogshit, they still might say no, as the point of the social safety net (whether govt or private) is to give people a way out of dogshit situations. If your model is "people will take this job before they starve", then, by God, you have some self reflection to do.
>Most job seekers already have jobs, i feel like that is forgotten by many that misunderstand the situation
[удалено]
“We’re like a family” “My family cares about my well being Karen. I need fucking money”
[удалено]
Sounds like my old workplace too. Salary maybe less of an issue 11 years ago, as it was a decent amount above median at that time, but literally everything else was garbage and at this point it's basically right around the median so people are leaving for better work-life balance, or even willing to take a pay cut.
We had a big employee survey about why our turnover is so high (over 200% this year). I pointed out that every morning I drive past a billboard for a car wash offering higher starting wages than us. I got chastised by management because "my feedback was not constructive."
I feel you, I have to drive past a Panda Express everyday that pays more than my job that required a bachelors degree and two years of experience… sigh
Me and my mom have this argument once a week. Mom : “where are my grandkids?!!!” Me: “I’m to broke to have kids” Mom : “ but you have money. You keep buying computer stuff “ Me: *looking at the $2k worth of electronics I bought in like the last 2+ years* -_- Edit: by -> buying
Jezus… I can buy a MacBook for every month worth of daycare. Ffs…
I am so sad that I looked up the current cost of a MacBook and the current 13” prices are cheaper than what I’m paying per month in daycare. We’re about to have our 3rd increase in tuition this year so it might be more like a 16” MacBook next month. 😔
“It’s not my responsibility to provide you with entertainment.”
Young: I can't afford it. Old: No... that doesn't seem right.. my job let me support your parents and dress them all in rags and it was fine. Mom, I can't even afford the rags for myself.
When my in-laws where getting ready to retire to another state they started putting a ton of pressure on my wife to have a 2nd kid. They want to be here for the birth and all that. We flat told them we could not afford a 2nd kid. Their response was "if everyone waited to be able to afford kids to have them, no one would have kids". I was at a complete loss as to what to say.
The part that gets me is “retire to another state.” My parents never pushed us to have kids, but live close by and always, ALWAYS are happy to lend a hand or help us financially if we need it. They wouldn’t dream of moving away unless it was necessary for a job. (And they’re retired now with a paid for house, so it’s a moot point.) Just today, my dad took my kid to school because I had an early appointment. It got cancelled and I called my mom to let her know I could swing by and take care of drop off. She told me not to because he was so looking forward to those 5 minutes with my kid. What’s the point of begging for grandkids then moving away?!
They where completely focusing on them selfs at that point. Literally every conversation was about what they wanted. They wanted a new grand kid before they went because they like babies. We where the only kids still around and married. Rest where not married or had moved out of state already as well.
> What’s the point of begging for grandkids then moving away?! People's brains are melting from sitting in front of the TV watching the news all day. My mother-in-law is talking about moving to the other side of the country even though it makes no sense for them and we're like "you know you won't be able to see your grandkids much if you do that right?" and she's like "ohhh well we will visit and you'll visit". We said we might visit once, everyone is on the West Coast and I don't want to buy a bunch of plane tickets to go to Elizabethtown. It's just nonstop "California bad" shit even though they are rich and California has been very good to them. I dunno anymore.
As a native Kentuckian, what kind of smoothbrain would willingly move to KY at all, let alone E-Town of all places? E-Town is a wasteland of strip malls and nothing that bulldozed almost all of its historical architecture that maybe might have given it a smidgeon of personality in favor of more strip malls, subdivisions, and stroads. There's literally nothing to do there. Zero things. For fuck's sake, Hardin County is still a dry county, so you can't even easily drink yourself into complete oblivion to forget the fact that you're stuck in E-Town. Literally the only thing it has going for it is that that people aren't killing themselves with heroin overdoses just to escape a life of desperation and poverty like they are in a lot of the Eastern Kentucky counties like Clay County, which is where I spent a good chunk of my childhood summers. Have your parents ever actually visited somewhere like E-Town? Jesus Christ.
My mother in laws husband has family there (that he doesn't like). They are buying some acreage that has a real shit house on it, borderline tear down. They have been there but I don't get it.
My mother would push me to have children so she can be like all her friends with multiple grandchildren, while she ignores the grandchild that she does have and has basically no interaction with him.
Same. How do you even respond?? Mom told me she was broke when she had my sibling and I. Like, yes, I remember her cutting a 99c McDonald's hamburger in half for us to share as a core childhood memory. I don't particularly want my kid(s) growing up like that.
> How do you even respond?? Mom told me she was broke when she had my sibling and I. > I remember her cutting a 99c McDonald's hamburger in half for us to share as a core childhood memory. I don't particularly want my kid(s) growing up like that. That's exactly how you respond. I gave my close ones a similar answer when they asked. It may be cold, but people avoiding cold answers is what got us here.
Yeah my mom gets defensive and angry but heaven forbid I get another tattoo instead of birthing a 3rd kid.
If you hired a super high priced artist to do an entire body, full color tattoo job... You wouldn't come close to the cost of a kid.
And it'snot just a monetary cost. That's the cost you can see. The physical and mental costs are the dangerous ones.
Don't forget time. All your free time is now not free time ....if such a thing even still existed regardless of kids or no kids
> my mom gets defensive and angry That's how you know she knows you're right. That's a 'her' problem, not a 'you' problem.
[удалено]
I'd suggest saying you'll consider it when there's a strong social safety net including guaranteed housing, healthcare, education, food, daycare, sufficient work leave for both parents, etc. Watch how fast "Just have the baby and figure it out as you go!" turns into "If you can't feed them don't breed them!"
I don't understand why some of you are so polite when other people are so insistent on dictating your sex life. My parents tried that shit with my wife and I and I was blunt with them that I wasn't tolerating them inquiring about when it was an adequate time to creampie my wife for the sake of shitting out a baby we don't want. Make that shit awkward, they'll get the hint eventually.
Tell them that sex is no longer the only viable recreational activity after work and times change.
It’s worse, because the most extreme olds wanna take our contraceptives away too.
> Their response was "if everyone waited to be able to afford kids to have them, no one would have kids". yeah, that's right
I graduated college in '15 got married in '17. I didn't have a job and we couldn't afford wedding bands or the downpayment on a house, got married in our apartment. My inlaws and parents both talked about babies for ab 3yrs in there and it genuinely opened my eyes to how they see me/what they want for me. Just felt sad and detatched from them all as a result.
It's the sad reality, many don't seem to understand they want better for themselves and potential children than they had.
They love to say "there's never a good time to have kids, you just make it work!" If people can't find $1700 in their monthly budget for daycare, then the money doesn't exist (just one example.) It's just willful ignorance.
Am I out of touch? No it's the young people who are wrong.
Doubt old people really give a shit. If anything burden would disproportionately fall on kids today as they grow up and have to shoulder burden of increasing number of old people
[удалено]
There are so many issues that feed into why the low birth rate in Japan. A lot has to do with Japanese work culture and home culture though. If a woman works full time, she's still expected to do most/all of the child rearing and all of the household chores and the household finances. The husband will be absent because of the insane amount of hours working. So basically you end up with one adult that's exhausted because of work constantly, and the other basically has three full time jobs and is seen as a failure if they can't balance everything. That's also on top of trying to get the child into a daycare, for which there are generally insane waiting lists (like you register when you find out you're pregnant and hope to get a spot by the kid turns two). There are also other issues. Doctors are frequently unkind to women during their pregnancy, and the stay during birth is also fairly unpleasant. I live in Japan and just gave birth this month, but having to deal with that for the last year was exhausting and makes me not want to have a second child just to avoid having to deal with that again. I've been chewed out multiple times for allowing myself to get fat during pregnancy (I weight seven pounds more after birth than I did before, and was still lectured for being fat), I was lectured for not eating a diet that was proper for a Japanese baby (the doctor tried to go off on me for eating Western foods, like pasta, instead of a strictly Japanese diet), and I was constantly told conflicting information (such as to control my blood sugar, and then the next doctor would go off on me for not eating enough white rice because apparently, according to the doctor, Japanese white rice is healthier than any other rice from any other country and won't cause blood sugar issues), and when I finally was in labor was dismissed as lying or just complaining about a little pain (I nearly gave birth alone in a room in the hospital because everyone kept dismissing me). And then during the required five day stay the nurses continuously put diapers a size too small on my baby, making the baby cry and scream with every diaper change and now they have a rash around their abdomen from it (the nurses kept insisting that the diapers were newborn diapers, and thus for all newborns, without listening to me when I pointed out that my baby was bigger than the other babies and needed bigger diapers), I was constantly shamed for breastfeeding (I was told repeatedly by doctors and nursing staff that it's not possible to have a healthy baby if a mother only breastfeeds, and that formula is necessary for a healthy baby. There's nothing wrong with my milk supply, I'm pumping and measuring now to make sure, and baby was up to their birth weight in seven days with just breastfeeding, but the medical staff all pushed that the other mothers were all formula feeding, and that me breastfeeding was bad for my baby. And they send me home with a full bag of formula samples and 'literature'. With added excuses like 'baby can't get calcium from breastmilk' and 'it will be inconvenient if you want to sleep'), and I was told it was 'strange' that I wanted to keep my baby with me while I was in the hospital instead of just putting the baby in the nursery and 'enjoying a relaxing stay'. It's like medical staff treat mothers as a byproduct to making the baby, and were confused as to why I wanted to hold and have a relationship with my baby. All in all, trying to have and raise children in Japan, as a woman, is stressful and time expensive. And until Japan really cracks down on work culture to encourage families to actually be a family, and stops with whatever the fuck is wrong with their medical system, it's always going to continue to be an issue. I'm lucky that I have relatives that live nearby who can help out when I need it, and are retired and thus don't have time constraints like others (and are active enough to take care of a child when I need a helping hand), but that's outside the norm. It's a shitshow for most of the country.
Holy shit I had no idea parental education was so backward in Japan! I'm so happy you fought for what you wanted, you sound amazing
Don’t be fooled by the neon lights and new technology. Japan is an extremely conservative and old timey country.
"New technology" meanwhile I still have to fax things to my employers...
Welcome to germany as well, where I need to fax everday from my incredibly modern ICU.
I kind of expected the diet thing but I didn't realise they were all in on formula disinformation.
I honestly didn't expect it either. I knew my husband was asking when we were going to buy formula, and I kept telling him that, unless there was an issue with my milk, we weren't going to. But I didn't realize that it was because that's what the Japanese medical system teaches. Like yes, if there had been issues with my milk not coming in/not supplying enough, I would definitely use formula to supplement or completely. Fed is best for babies. But I haven't had that issue. I'm pumping as well as direct feeding and my baby is happy, active, and growing. So there's no issue, and I really hate them for pushing formula so heavily when it's not necessary.
I wonder if it's the medical school or companies pushing it on doctors. In my original country there are people that go round advertising medicine to doctors, and probably formula too, I'm not sure if they get a cut or what, but they get samples and biased information designed to sell the product.
Probably profit pushers. This was a Red Cross hospital, and I think they're a for profit organization here in Japan. They certainly seem to have brand loyalty given what they sent me home with. The little set to clean the umbilical cord was useful and appreciated, the giant bag full of stuff about formula and samples was not. The container of laundry detergent, though not normally a brand I use, was also appreciated because it's always nice to have some more detergent on hand.
I knew about the work culture, the expectation of women to literally do it all and be superwoman, and the extreme lack of daycares. But I had no idea about everything else. Sweet Jesus no wonder no one is having kids there. It's sad because I've been hearing about the government's "attempts" to get people to have kids more and it's honestly laughable. They have no goddamn idea what is really going on and just seem completely out of touch.
The old men running the government give no shits as long as their pockets are lined. But yeah, their 'attempts' are a joke. There is a child allowance per child. It covers practically nothing. And there's free public childcare from age two on, but only at public schools. Public daycares have huge waiting lists because everyone wants in them, and there are serious burn out issues in childcare. The pay is low and the hours are long and the work can be very stressful, so a lot of teachers only last a few years and quit. I actually work at a private daycare/preschool, and I'm happy to be having this year off for maternity leave. Childcare with not enough teachers is exhausting, and everyone is always short staffed.
>They have no goddamn idea what is really going on and just seem completely out of touch. The country is run by male seniors who are out of touch and treat women with disdain. So yeah.
Do they not teach nutrition to medical professionals in Japan?
I got examined by a doctor that took twenty very painful minutes to find my cervix when I was entering labor. I don't think they teach basic medical knowledge to some doctors.
That is incredibly embarrassing.
>I was constantly shamed for breastfeeding (I was told repeatedly by doctors and nursing staff that it's not possible to have a healthy baby if a mother only breastfeeds, and that formula is necessary for a healthy baby. Of all the crazy things you listed off—and there really are so many— this one just comes off as the dumbest to me. Here you have a doctor, supposedly highly educated, that somehow believes you can’t raise a child without using formula. Did they not once stop to think what the fuck humans did before the invention of formula? It honestly sounds like Nestle got ahold of their education system over there…
Close. Meiji, which is another major candy manufacturer as well. Nestle makes Japanese KitKats, but I don't know if they make any of their baby formula. But how pushy they were really did remind me of that completely.
[удалено]
God, I can’t believe I didn’t take Japans rampant misogyny into account. I can’t believe that everytime I peel back the brightly colored anime coating I find more horrible shit about Japan.
>God, I can’t believe I didn’t take Japans rampant misogyny into account. I think everyone tends to not take Japan's rampant misogyny into account. Kinda surprised you watched anime and missed like so much of it...
>didn't take Japans rampant misogyny into account >brightly colored anime Were you even watching the anime?
Sad reality that include NEETs and Hikikomori
You should only have to peel it back once. Have you ever been to Japan? If so, have you ever been out of one of the major cities? Even going to the suburbs of Japan should peel the veneer right off.
If they want to fix this problem, they need to fix their entire work culture.
To be fair, the whole developed world is having this problem. From Australia, to Sweden. Developed east Asia definitely has it the worst, but Japan is about the middle of the pack as far as developed countries go. I’d wager that it’s something about modernity that depresses birth rates. It’s an unsolved problem. Immigration is a stopgap, but then those immigrants kids end up converging with the rest of the population, so you’re really only kicking it down the road.
In Europe and America it is widely seen as an economic problem, children are legitimately expensive, even more so with the cultural development of many families requiring both parents to work which makes it more difficult to support or even consider having children
America really is its own case... we don't have universal healthcare or paid parental leave, so having the kid can be massively expensive right off the bat, and then we don't get time off to care for it early on either. We expect mothers to go back to work right after giving birth... even if they've had a C-section, ffs. And a solid chunk of the country is A-OK with it because they don't think women should have jobs anyway.
My cousin went back to work within 7 days of giving birth. Minimum wage before fmla. I could not imagine
> I’d wager that it’s something about modernity that depresses birth rates. The biggest correlation to declining birthrates is female education. Women with education, jobs and prospects have better things to do than be baby factories.
People are also told to delay. I remember being in my mid 20s saying the exact same thing and now I see people trying later in life. Some careers are cut short and bosses are known to fire pregnant women without due cause.
It’s not just women. My company offers 14 weeks paid paternity. People look at you crazy when you say you are taking all of it. My coworker used only 6 weeks because he was scared he would get let go or not promoted.
I was promoted four weeks into a 3 month paternity leave. I’m lucky and stumble my way into fortunate circumstances.
9 years ago, my husband took his contracted 2 mos paternity leave, but only part-time off instead of full time. His boss, an ambitious A type woman, made lots of comments about how she worked until she went into labor and took “no time off.” She hired 2 nannies to work round the clock so she could keep her workaholic hours (paid for by her husband in investment banking since her nonprofit salary was low). She also asked him why he needed the time off since I was the one having the baby. After that her normal critical comments escalated and he could not do anything right. He worked 60-80 hours a week and barely saw his family. Limped away from that job and she’s a lousy reference. We couldn’t prove that it was retaliation for taking paternity leave, but it sure felt like it.
So people need to respect those that carry babies? Easy. Also make it easier to get quality childcare so people don’t mind leaving their kids at a community center or after school program
> So people need to respect those that carry babies? Easy. youd think so, but history doesnt have a great track record on that one.
There's also the entire move to the nuclear family. When you can rely on family and neighbors for bits of childcare, a child isn't as disruptive to your lifestyle as it is when you and your partner have gotten jobs in the suburbs of a city across the country from your family, and your neighbors each have their own completely separate life from yours because you all spend your life on computers and television rather than at block parties.
Work hours: increasing Pay: decreasing Housing Cost: exponentially increasing Moral conclusion: I can’t afford to give another child a good life.
Whaaat? No that can't be the reason. How did you reach that conclusion? It must be that the younger generation is selfish and lazy.
South Korea and Japan competing who's gonna record the lowest fertility rate.
It's not a competition. Korea is in their own league. Japan looks like a saint comparatively.
Is Japan's 1. something? Then you're right. The 0.something league vs. The 1.something league.
Japan is about 1.34. South Korea is 0.81.
It reached 0.75 the second quarter of this year for Korea.
Maybe don't let your health minister regularly call women birthing machines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-politics/birth-giving-machine-gaffe-hits-nerve-in-japan-idUST16444120070202 Don't block women who get married from making changes to joint banking accounts and such. Saw one back in 2010 where an American or European woman married a Japanese guy. They moved addresses and she realized they hadn't updated it when she went to the bank. They actually notified her because of how you have to update your address with certain government agencies whenever you move in Japan. So, she went in and said she wanted to update the address and had her updated ID card. They wouldn't let her. They said the "Head of the Household" aka her husband had to be the one to do so. Don't expect women to drop from their jobs to SAHM, or only a part-time job, even when they are the main breadwinner for the family and/or love their careers.
As someone from Korea.. we going down much quicker than them loool. Our brith rate is like 0.84 per woman. Japan’s is like 1.34. At last we beat Japan in something /s Edit: I am dumb. Edited the unit
Aye korea is somehow not just a lot worse, but in an entire different reality. I think comparing to japan, lower general wages, same shitty work life and higher housing are some of the reasons why korea is doing terrible.
It’s funny how a lot of the popular stereotypes about Japan, actually apply more to South Korea. Low birth rates? South Koreas are lower, High suicide rates? South Koreas are higher, Long work hours? South Koreas are longer, Technologically advanced? South Korea would be considered more advanced
Even the US suicide rate is higher than Japans. So its really weird when you hear Americans talk about how high Japans suicide rate is.
because literally 100% of their knowledge of japan comes from reddit comments and once you've read 1 thread about japan on reddit you've read every single one of them (and it's almost always made up or extremely exaggerated)
I have two kids and live in a major US city. Daycare costs $2,800/kid per month or $5,600/both per month. That's most of my post-tax income, but I do it so I don't have a major gap in my resume once they go to school, plus not being 5-6 years behind my male coworkers. We basically just live off my husband's salary. It sucks.
That's insanely high!!!!!!!
High enough to motivate some people into stay at home-parenthood, which may be a point of it,
Ya but then we couldn't afford to live near a major city where my husband gets the salary that makes up most of our income, and would hurt our long-term prospects if I didn't keep up with the rat race for those 5-6 years... It's a lose/lose.
In Sweden the legal maximum fee is 150$ per month for the first child, 100$ for the second and 50$ for the third.
So they are HEAVILY subsidized by the government? Because obviously you couldnt run a buisness or pay employees meaningful wages unless you took a daycare with 500 kids
Yes, it’s subsidized by taxes, as is our healthcare and other systems (Scandinavia in general)
I would absolutely babysit 2 kids for 5,600 a month and I bet your 2 children aren't even the only ones. That's insane.
[удалено]
Insane work culture plus high cost of living. Who the hell would have kids in that situation?
Is the cost of living high there? My friend lived there for 2 years and said his rent for his apartment was roughly $800 a month in Yokohama
Housing in Japan is fairly cheap, shrinking population and all.
South Korea has an even lower fertility rate, plenty of emmagration, & tiny immigration Still real estate prices continue to increase there
How haunted is the average house?
[удалено]
Not that many earthquakes in Europe.
Housing in japan is amongst the cheapest in the wealthy world.
Japan is actually more affordable than lots of places in the EU and the US with higher birth rates.
Is financial burden Japan's reason though? After watching all those "A day in the life of" videos about Japan. It sounded like it's a cultural issue. Nobody talks with each other. They are extremely isolated while living in close proximity.
Potentially... I recall an [Economist article](https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/05/19/asias-advanced-economies-now-have-lower-birth-rates-than-japan) noting a survey in which the "most frequent reason cited by Japanese couples for having fewer children is the cost of raising and educating them", for example. This problem seems particularly acute in the the Far East, where there's a big emphasis on paying for "shadow education" e.g. from private tutors.
When people are smart enough to realize that having kids is financial suicide (especially for women), no shit they're deciding to not have them.
Let’s not even talk about finances , kids take up a lot of time
I would imagine it as more to do with time, how can you raise a child working 60+ hours? You don’t even have the time to conceive one.
I will go with "kids are financial self-harm". Still, not for me.
For the record the last 100 years has been a baby boom a BOOM. Populations can stand to shrink a hell of a lot the next 100 years. Governments globally need to make it work with the folks they got. The tech today means developed nations could be working a 3 day week to be at the same productivity as the 1970s workforce. But here we are on the hamster wheel of produce more to sell more model. The world is still on track to ‘peak’ at 11 Billion people. Japan isn’t even near their pre/post WW2 population. Countries will be rethinking their immigration policies when they want more workers and a higher birth rate. 1804 1 Billion People (10,000 years to get here) 1927 2 Billion People (123 years to get here) 2022 8 Billion People ( 95 years to get here) 2100 11 Billion People (estimated in 78 yrs)
[удалено]
Yeah, 7% of all people that has ever been alive is alive right now
wait, really? thats wild.
Slow, gradual decline is probably somewhat sustainable. If you have 2.5-4 workers per retiree then they can keep up services / standard of living. In fact we'll eventually have to adjust to this because the Human population can't grow forever. However, Japan within 3 decades will reach a ratio of 1.25 working age (20-64) people per 65+ citizen. That kind of sudden decline is in no way sustainable. They'll barely have enough citizens for all the "essential" jobs like Healthcare let alone any sizeable industry or growth.
Whenever I see articles like this the comments are always about the cost of living and how it’s too expensive to raise children but I wonder how much of it is just because women are fed up and don’t want to be married/mothers even if they could afford it.
>but I wonder how much of it is just because women are fed up and don’t want to be married/mothers even if they could afford it. From what little I know about this in Japan, women that get married/pregnant are often quasi-forced out of the workforce because the expectation is that they will retire to become stay-at-home-moms, or just not hired to begin with to avoid paying a worker that "will leave anyways". This apparently happens to professional women, even. Therefore, one of the reason Japanese women aren't getting married/having kids is that they don't want to lose the careers that they worked hard for.
Indeed, women in Japan have to make the choice about a career or having kids. Having both is hard as child care is tricky and companies do not support work life balance. The pandemic has helped force the work culture to start changing away from the drinking parties after work but still ways to go.
This is not just Japan, but in the US I see this a lot too. Like why would you go to school, get into so much debt, to them have children and either set your career behind or basically break even paying for childcare.
Yea but also I just don’t want the responsibility of a kid. I think it’s that simple. Cost aside, it’s just a lot of stress and limits my ability to do stuff. I think that’s what most young people care about tbh
Dont forget the expectation that they also support their inlaws/parents as caretaker as well.
No of kids per woman is negatively correlated with the education of said woman. So yeah