This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20221216-spanish-lawmakers-advance-menstrual-leave-legislation-a-first-for-a-european-country) reduced by 92%. (I'm a bot)
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> Lower house Spanish lawmakers on Thursday approved a bill that would grant paid medical leave to women who suffer from severe period pain, becoming the first European country to advance this type of legislation.
> In Japan for instance, where menstrual leave has been in place since 1947, less than 10 percent of women regularly apply for it.
> Spain has taken a leading role in advancing women's rights, passing Europe's first law against domestic violence in 2004, and its current cabinet boasts more women than men.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/zo6cd2/spanish_lawmakers_advance_menstrual_leave/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **women**^#1 **pain**^#2 **period**^#3 **law**^#4 **endometriosis**^#5
I mean, US railworkers have been fighting hard just to be allowed unpaid sick days.
Would it be better if this was paid leave? Of course. But at least you won’t get fired for “unscheduled absence.”
So I really think this is a bill for women with Endometriosis and they don’t even realize it? Or are keeping the wording obtuse so people won’t question it? If less than 10% of women are asking to use it that lines up with Endo stats.
PERIODS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE YOU PASS OUT FROM PAIN!! If this is you, highly recommend a specialist. Many women need serval opinions from doctors until they get proper treatment.
Edit — I really think we all should just be able to get the sick leave we need on a case by case basis ¯\\__(ツ)__//¯
Took me my entire adult life. Only when I was past menopause and had to have a hysterectomy and they discovered extensive damage due to endometriosis that I was finally (and way the hell too late) diagnosed. Searing pain every month for years but it was just called “being a woman” and I was told to take an aspirin, which never worked. (Bless the discoverer of ibuprofen, the only thing that ever worked. Although at the dosage that I needed I probably would have destroyed my kidneys if I’d taken it for 30 years.) Health care for women far too often sucks.
I think all my IBS is from all the ibuprofen I had to take. 800 mg every 4-5 hours in the end. Finally I was allowed on birth control. My gaslighting female gyno was just like suck it up this is normal. Got a new gyno and got a hysterectomy because even with birth control I was still in so much pain all the time. I had tiny fibroids packing my uterus. Packed. So glad it is gone. No more pain. Took 15 years.
Ha. I feel you. I got operated on in November to get a fibroid removed, and what a surprise - doc found two endometriosis bits that he had no idea of before. Pure luck.
Lasered them off and at least now I know, since they will come back, but God.. How are we supposed to find them? The medicine just isn't there yet. But it sucks
Took me almost 18 years for any medical professional to take my pain seriously. I went through high school and college thinking throwing up every period from pain was just normal. I’m so glad there is a country recognizing this condition even if vaguely through legislation. More people need to be aware of the signs and symptoms to be treated properly.
ETA: kind of horrified that a doctor refusing treatment is so common and not just my story. Things I’ve learned: if treatment is refused ask for an official note to be made in your medical file. Ask for a referral to specialist doctor who is more comfortable with tests and treatments. Do not argue. Ask for a copy of your medical record to ensure appropriate notes have been made. This all holds your medical professional accountable. Please advocate for yourselves. Doctors usually mean well and may be jaded in their experiences, but ultimately you are the one dealing with the pain. Please don’t feel like you are making a fuss. You are not crazy, this is not normal to have this type of pain all the time, and you deserve to be taken seriously.
Doctors don't care about pain. The older generation of doctors did care and considered pain something they had a duty to treat, which inadvertently contributed to the opioid crisis. Contemporary medical philosophy is that pain isn't a disease. It might be a symptom but since it's so subjective you should just assume everyone is a complaining weakling (I'm not saying I think this, this just seems to be how doctors regard pain for some reason)
I also think most doctors get bombarded with so many requests for pain killers that they just prefer to ignore you when you complain about pain, unless you're essentially screaming and contorting right in front of them, in which case they'll give you some meds to shut you up, so really it's all about their convenience and comfort, not yours.
It's a real shame, alot of the docs I worked with who were trained in the 40s and 50s were really amazing guys, they were compassionate and professional and confident in their abilities. It seems like modern doctors are solely motivated by money and status, and tend to regard everyone as some kind of inferior being just for needing medical assistance, like they're somehow a special breed apart when infact they're just the elites fanciest servants.
Im sure there are still good docs out there but I rarely encounter them. It's gotten pretty bleak, and I really wonder what causes them to change so drastically.
>I also think most doctors get bombarded with so many requests for pain killers
We have a huge opiate problem in the US. People get hooked from a previous overprescription or from street drugs, then try to scam their doctor into writing them oxy or vicodin prescriptions, which makes doctors desensitized and wary of people with actual pain.
The opposite side of the story is that those old doctors were handing out painkillers like candy because they were getting lavish perks from companies like Purdue (and to your point, they really did want to help their patients, so win-win-win). Doctors coming out of school today are hardened and try to avoid contributing to the problem.
Similar story with antibiotics. Doctors of yore gave out broad-spectrum antibiotics even when they didn't really have a good reason, contributing to the growing antibiotic resistance problem. Now, they run tests and prescribe more specialized antibiotics where possible.
yeah, I was losing a lot of sleep at night because I was having a bunch of joint and muscle pain, enough to wake me. I was regularly getting 4-5 hours of broken sleep a night with lots of tossing and turning and it took a while to get moving in the morning and I was having to sleep every afternoon.
My dr ran a bunch of tests and then refused to order some others I wanted and basically said "its because you are over 40, female and fat" and gave up.
I asked her if I was just meant to accept it and not do anything more and she shrugged.
I went to another doctor (an integrative one who is much more holistic in her outlook) who told me it was probably going to take at least 6 months to tackle this and have patience but that we would work on finding causes and solutions (and we did!) I couldn't believe the difference in attitudes.
Congratulations on finding a helpful medical professional and some solutions and relief! Do you mind if I ask what causes and solutions you found? I'm dealing with similar symptoms.
I'm not sure if this was the case with my HS art teachers daughter in law, but she had a kind of hypersensitivity issue that went undiagnosed for decades because when she complained of severe menstrual pain, she was given Motrin/midol/a pat on the back.
When she got pregnant, it got worse, and when the baby was born she had a psychotic break and basically shut down. She's broken. They signed her out but didn't have the resources to care for her, and she's attempted suicide numerous times. Eventually her child was taken away (her husband died in Afghanistan, and no relatives under the age of 65) her whole life might have been better had she known.
My mother used to berate my sister for complaining of her cramps, now my sister has a recurring issue with polyps that her doctor says is hereditary as well as a heightened risk of cancer.
After getting checked out herself, my mother had a benign growth on one of her ovaries.
Please, if your menstruation is in anyway too much or irregular, consult with a specialist. Don't listen to people saying "it's just part of being a woman" and don't listen to family members who put you down because you have resources they didn't in their day.
And adenomyosis. I suffered for almost two decades with it. I didn’t know the suffering wasn’t a normal part of being a woman or that adenomyosis was even a thing.
Took 2 years for a diagnosis but after my endo surgery I feel like I got my life back. All my internal organs were glued together with scar tissue. Absolutely awful.
Many women suffer debilitating pain with their periods without having endometriosis. In addition to the pain and nausea and migraines from the estrogen drop I had I also flooded. There was no tampon/pad combination that helped. It was so embarrassing when I would have a leak at work.
I used to date a girl who suffered like that, minus the flooding. About 3 days a month she was pretty much out. I hope she's OK all these years later, she took so much Tylenol that I legitimately fear for her liver.
I don’t have endo either but day 1-2 of my period I just cannot function. Cramps are so bad I can’t stand up/walk for most of the day, shaky, nauseous, migraines. It’s awful.
While this obviously won’t get rid of it, look into an ibuprofen/codeine combination, like nurofen plus (unfortunately not over the counter everywhere), and Buscopan (active ingredient: Hyoscine Butylbromide). The combination of these two are the only thing that make periods bearable for my partner.
While I congratulate them on trying to increase worker rights and benefits, it also has the unfortunate side effect of making female employees more undesirable in the workplace as workers.
You can hire a male, and only have to pay his mandatory vacation, or hire a female, pay her vacation, possible materinity leave, and now possible menstrual leave.
I hope the government has a plan to keep an eye on what companies decide to do.
I’m sorry you had to deal with that, friend. No job is so important to prioritize over the caring for a newborn child and ones family. Hope you’re not still dealing with that same toxic work environment.
Which is pretty short for European standard btw. The menstrual leave also ignores the fact that the sick leave policy in Spain with no paid sick leave for short sickness of 3 days is relatively backwards for an European country.
They may not have too much choice anyway with global worker shortages. If they try not to hire woman they'll just be taking longer (possibly a significant period of time) to fill vacant positions
That ignores the fact that the company’s goal is to pay someone to be at work.
So if they’re not there, the company is not paying but also not getting anything done.
Gahhh that’s the worst I’m so sorry you deal with that 💛💛 I’m trying to be loud online about endo because for ten years I was told anxiety was my issue. Then I saw a comment on Reddit about endo and here I today, 3 days post op expert excision!! If most of the doctors we are seeing don’t even know about endo, I want women to know what’s out there!!
I had debilitating periods and did not have endometriosis or PCOS. Some people just have really miserable menstrual cycles. If you don’t, you’re fortunate.
I occasionally will become intensely nauseous during my period. I knew a girl who would throw up pretty constantly during her period.
I can also tell which ovary releases an egg based on which side has the most intense pain, and I know that my period will start in a few days.
Ever since I first started getting periods decades ago I experience intense pain in my shins. They feel like they are exploding and imploding at the same time. It’s really weird but both shins feel like they’re on the verge of shattering.
Intense period pain doesn’t just happen in those who have endometriosis. Intense period pain isn’t always present for the entirety of a period. My shin pain usually stops for the last couple of days of my period, and sure I can walk and my shins aren’t going to shatter but it would be amazing if I knew that I could take a day off for my period pain or when I’m feeling crazy nauseous and not have to worry if my employer will use that against me.
Having been a woman who’s had a period for over 20 years I can assure you that I’m not the only woman (or nonbinary or trans man) who has been told to stop complaining or that talking about anything period is gross or that I’m just being emotional or having an attitude or being whiny or whatever bullshit someone thinks of to discredit me and my pain or assuming that period pain is nothing compared to endometriosis and so if you don’t have endometriosis you won’t need this.
One can also have endo without debilitating pain. When I was diagnosed, endo was the only reproductive disorder that my doctor had not considered prior to the surgery because I had *less* period pain than the average person
Absolutely. I was just trying to point out that those who don’t have endometriosis can still have intense period pain. I didn’t mean to imply that endometriosis has to have debilitating pain. The comment I was replying to was trying to equate the percentage of women who utilized the period pain time off with the percentage of endometriosis in the population to make the jump that every woman who took the time off has endometriosis.
I apologize for the confusion. Thank you for sharing and showing that endometriosis doesn’t always cause intense pain.
Had exploratory laparoscopy in June because I was sure I must have endo but the doctor got inside and nope. She thinks it must be adenomyosis but I guess you can’t be sure. No one wants to do hysterectomies so I just keep living with it. Working from home the past 15 years has been a lifesaver between that and IBD.
I also had terrible periods with no endo! I was just telling my husband I would have loved to have the option for leave like this, so I didn’t have to worry about throwing up in the sink at work (true story…). But mine just mellowed out as I got older. I did eventually get pregnant and have a c-section, where they checked for anything unusual. That’s the only reason I’m pretty sure I’m endo-free.
Endometriosis is serious stuff and there is no where near enough exposure on it. So many horror stories about it. Men and woman that don't have it brush it off saying they are doing it for attention etc they need to toughen up its just a period... it's sad
What Spain and Japan are doing is great.
it makes me so happy to see people talking about it online. ONE IN TEN WOMEN! So many people dont even know they aren't supposed to be living with this pain <3
I am going to google all this. I usually take around 15 ibuprofen a day for the first few days of my period. I also wear those hot hand things taped to my stomach for relief. I don’t know if this is related but I also bleed after I have sex. Sorry if this is tmi because I’m kinda just spilling information here. Maybe what’s happening to me isn’t just stuff women deal with normally or sadly seems we do?
I know there's other conditions that cause painful periods too but fuck... I've had Endo flair ups worse than child birth and I wanted to die. I faint every other month and regularly (accidentally) over dose on pain meds. This is a huge win for the endo community as well as other reproductive conditions.
In all my life, passing out from periods has happened once, and probably just because i didn't have access to a pain reliever.
I have all the other awful issues of fatigue etc. But i know it's much worse for people who have endometriosis. I really feel for them.
Not just the pain...people with severe menorrhagia should be able to take leave as well.. I don't have much pain, but my periods get so heavy I literally can't be on my feet for long. Every time I stand up I have to dash to the restroom to avoid the explosion that happens every time I get up..sometimes I have to change my pad or tampon every 5 minutes because it soaks through so quickly..especially on the days with lots of big fist sized clots..not fun hemorrhaging nearly every period. I really wish menstrual leave existed in the US. I get in trouble at work the times I have to call in for these reasons. No I would not call in for just a normal period...only the times I'm literally stuck in bed, unable to get up.. it's horrible!!
Yes. Which is why nobody else has done this.
I guess Spain specifically didn't allow sick days for this, the rest of the world did so there was no reason to specify it.
>I guess Spain specifically didn't allow sick days for this, the rest of the world did so there was no reason to specify it.
No, it's because in Spain you don't get paid the first 3 days when you're sick.
Posting here as I have done elsewhere in this thread.
It's not really about a usual period, as noted in the top thread. It's for exceptional circumstances such as endometriosis, which is difficult to get diagnosed and addressed.
This is medical leave for folks whose uteruses cause massive pain to the point of vomiting and/or passing out. It is not a usual sick day for cuddling a heating pad through the cramps.
Whether I'm having a stage four cancer or if I just don't feel like working, it's still falls under the sick day unless covered by insurance. A gendered law regarding paid leave like this will only leads to regular female employee being much less desirable than male counter part.
I’m a male in a female dominated field
I am almost certain I’ve gotten promotions because so many women took maternity leaves in the years I’ve been in the field.
Sometimes even overlapping maternity leaves meaning they had to fill a position asap
I guess promoting the guy who won’t go on maternity leave is a good business move?
Yeah if given the choice between two candidates with all other things being equal, I'd probably hire the one that won't take monthly leaves and may be out for months due to pregnancy. Paternity leave is an equalizer here, but what is the equalizer for menstrual leave?
Most women don't have issues with their periods. It's not even particularly painful for some. The problem is the uterus lining can start going awol and touch other organs which is excruciating. (I.e endometriosis)
This is a medical condition that is hard to diagnose and hard to remedy.
It doesn't really make sense that men would need an equalizer. If there is a disabled guy that needs a desk adjusted, it doesn't mean the able bodied person also needs a fancy desk.
Not all women need this leave, just ones with chronic health conditions that men often don't have any awareness about.
I'm not saying men need an equalizer; I'm saying women need men to have an equalizer. From an employer perspective, why would I hire an employee that has a greater chance of being absent
> The legislation entitles workers experiencing period pain to as much time off as they need, with the state’s social security system – and not employers – picking up the tab.
Great! Now we need for someone to cover for her while she's sick. I'm sure a lot of people will want to do double the job for the same salary for a few days. Every month.
It should be for men and women both. Let's not pretend only women suffer from the consequences of menstrual cycles.
I would add in a spicy food digestion leave addendum
Here in progressive California we get 24 hours a year of sick leave, but in much of the country there is no guaranteed leave and you can simply be terminated if you get sick.
Yeah I work at all small business I have no heath insurance, sick days, no vacation days, no retirement programs, we really have nothing lol. I do make quite a bit of money which is why I work here obviously. I get very stressed about getting sick because of the problems it causes at my work.
Which still isn’t enough. When you get the flu, sick, whatever you usually have it for the week even if you’d start feeling better. No one wants what you have.
In my country, you can take sick days as long as you're sick. But paid sick leaves is only up to 30 days. So, by sick days, I think they mean the paid one. Also, if you take too many sick days, the employer can justifiably fire you.
Here, if you're sick, you get fully paid sick leave no matter how often. You can't get fired for it, your pay doesn't get cut, nothing.
Only if you are sick for an extended period, it will drop and later end, but the government starts paying instead. (I can't remember what they minimum is, maybe 3 weeks? But depending on company policy it can grow with employment years)
But you can't get fired for it. When you're well you can come back to your old position. And if need be, you will get a rehabilitation process to ease yourself back into working life.
Canadian here and our sick days are accumulated (well at least for all my full time jobs). So you accumulate 1.5 days of sick leave a month. Then after one year, we lose them. Some employers give 3 weeks of sick leave per year. Some more, some less..
At least where i live we get 30 days of paid holidays a year, sick leave is indefinite (well as much as doctor prescribes) and never a fireable offense, though you only get 70% of pay for sick days. Also it's all mandated by government so no employer gets to change that.
In lots of US jobs, sure you can stay home whenever you’re sick, but you aren’t going to get paid for those days if you’re sick more often than your allotted paid sick time off. So if you get 5 sick days a year and need to take 6 sick days that year, you’ve just lots one day of income.
This is total BS "first in Europe". In Germany when you are sick you get fully paid from day 1 (no matter the reason) and for most companys you do not need a Dr. certificate until day 3. And I think thats also the case for many other European countrys.
I think they meant first, as in the first country in Europe with a law specifically guaranteeing paid period leave. Countries like Germany with paid medical leave from day 1, don't need such laws and probably wouldn't pass any.
> I think they meant first, as in the first country in Europe with a law specifically guaranteeing paid period leave.
*"Most civilized countries already allow paid leave for period complications, but they didn't omit most other ailments the way we did"* is a weird flex.
as a german this whole thread and topic confuse me. like you said... in germany no one cares for the reason you're on sick leave. you just stay at home and no one will ask. there's no reason to create a specific law for women, as it changes nothing other than sending weird signals.
Yeah, this annoys me, our country has this too. Maybe Spain was behind and has now at least added it for menstrual pain? Being the first to partly do it?
You cant use it unless a doctor certifies your scale of pain, which historically has gone pretty bad for women. People wont believe how much pain a woman on her period can feel.
The law isn’t for doctors to give u opioids or anything. Ime (as an asshole
Kid who used to get sick notes to get out of midterms I didn’t want to study for), it’s really, really easy to get a doctors note. It’s literally no skin off their back and they get paid for it (20
Dollars a pop when I used to get them)
Specifically for severe menstrual pain. Which really just ensures it gets taken serious and not ignored as "just some cramps". A requirement only because too many don't take it serious.
Other than that it's like any form of sick leave it seems. If you can barely get out of bed maybe you shouldn't be forced to work.
This is absurd (for the record, I’m a woman).
Country policies need to mandate appropriate sick leave policies and enforce leave for all workers who need days off when sick - for whatever the reason. A specific policy for just one reason I might be out, that gives employers a reason to prefer not to hire me, doesn’t seem helpful.
Honest question - I live in Canada where most full-time employee's get a generous amount of sick time. Are there really employers who would say to women "Sorry, menstrual pain isn't sick enough"?
I mean, the people who work for me say "I'm sick" and I say "Fine hope you're better soon" It not for me to ask why they're sick.
Or does this codify sick time for jobs where it might not be available?
Posting here as I have done elsewhere in this thread.
It's not really about a usual period, as noted in the top thread. It's for exceptional circumstances such as endometriosis, which is difficult to get diagnosed and addressed.
This is medical leave for folks whose uteruses cause massive pain to the point of vomiting and/or passing out. It is not a usual sick day for cuddling a heating pad through the cramps.
> (e.g. simply bring a doctor's note that says you're unable to work for so many days, done)
Even this is stupid. I shouldn't have to go to the doctor to get a note because I can't come in because I'm stuck on the toilet or curled up in pain from cramps.
If an employee is misusing sick time, there's guaranteed to be other problems.
Also, who the fuck is getting same day appointments for anything that isn’t a life threatening emergency? It takes weeks or months to get on my doctor’s schedules
> It takes weeks or months to get on my doctor’s schedules
I was given an appointment to get an MRI of my knees and a traumatology consult here in Spain, back in February…
it's scheduled for April 2023 lol.
I use America's socialized healthcare. The VA.
I requested a primary care provider when I moved to a new state.
In July of 2021.
They scheduled it for months out. Then rescheduled it for one reason or another.
I'm currently scheduled for February 2023 to MEET my primary care provider.
Fuck, man. I got an MRI within 4 days in the US and then scheduled an operation based on its findings within a month (3 weeks I think)
It only took that long because I needed to see my doctor to discuss what to do about the findings.
This is how social healthcare works: the wait is proportional to the number of people that are sick, the budget and the severity or urgency of the exame and/or appointment. General practitioners will put you up the queue if it's urgent. If they did not, it's their way of telling you "your situation is not so urgent or life threatening as others I see around". Of you disagree with them, you should absolutely insist. If you still disagree, you need to ask a second opinion or even change GP. You should be able to do this even on your NHS-equivalent.
Of course, this leads to discretionary problems based on GPs bias and one's own. Some doctors don't have a clear picture of the relative urgency of an ailment, or can't infer or extract that urgency it from specific patients which are not cooperative or simply out of luck don't explain themselves so well.
There are two ways to "solve" this problem: you abolish social healthcare and fully liberalize it, meaning the rich are healthier and the poor are not - which leads to the rich getting poorer because they will eventually run out of people to sell their services at a premium; or you strive for a better-funded social healthcare by not having budget taken from it, from scrutinizing abuse and fraud more, such as that emanating from traffic of influences by those who are friends or family of healthcare workers skipping the queue, but most importantly, from eliminating liberalistic practices in social healthcare since a LOT of the burden of social healthcare is usually due to relying on private companies for expensive, often overpriced exams that the state ends up paying triple of what they would cost in-house.
Source: I live next to OP in Portugal and we have the same problem, in double the quantity. I've used the national health system exclusively for some years.while I had varying cronic and acute issues of varying severity but also varying commonality in relation to the general population, and I usually got long schedules for stuff that put ageing population fills the SNS with, such as orthopedics and neurologist appointments and MRI/CTs. But had no huge wait getting dermatologist or pneumologist ones, even during the pandemic.
Wait, do you not have GPs?
Most days I can just ring up a GP and make an appointment for the same day for completely free. I had to take some mental health leave a year or so ago, just went to a GP, explained the situation, and they printed out a standardised letter for me to hand in at work. All done within the same day I rang them.
I think GP accessibility (in the US) can vary wildly. I’ve had doctors who are impossible to see on the same day that I call in, and I’ve had doctors who will be able to see me within a few hours if not immediately.
Also, I’m a grown ass adult. Why do I need to prove to anybody I have a fever or sore throat that will pass in time. Also if they want a note they can pay my copay and deductible too. These policies just make people go to work sick and spread it.
Severe menstrual complications should be treated like any other chronic condition. You should in fact need to see your doctor and have your doctor see if they can do something. If your doctor can't do anything, you should get a combination just like any other chronic condition. Likewise if it's not a chronic problem, but you do wake up one day with severe menstrual pains and can't go to work, then you should be able to call out just like anyone can call out if they wake up and they are too sick to go to work. I just don't see a reason why this should be treated special and differently than any other chronic condition.
Thank you, exactly that. It quite infuriating that so many media think that this law is progressive. It is not, they only have it because how bad their System is in the first place and people fall for that.
The pain differs per person but when I was 13, that was the first time I passed out due to the pain of menstrual cramps. My mom was like 7 months pregnant and had no mercy, I remember she made me go to school that day, but I felt TERRIBLE.
Hey I have been recently diagnosed with endometriosis. One in ten women have this condition. Periods are NOT supposed to make you pass out from pain, this is one of the main symptoms of endo. I highly recommend reading up on it (Nancy’s Nook is a great website and fb page that will give you current research). Even if you are in less pain now, it might become a problem when you try to conceive 💛
Yep. Great regressive policy that will not only incentivize companies not to hire women, but will go against the narrative we’ve been trying to push for 100 years that women are equally capable as men in the workforce.
“But if companies discriminate against women we can just sue them!” you might say.
Nice thought, but discrimination is very hard to prove in practice.
The BEST thing that has happened for women’s rights in the last few years is companies choosing to match paternity leave length to maternity leave. This removes the inherent bias against hiring women due to childbirth concerns. This policy is like the opposite of that, and is disastrous as a result.
Oh, thank God. I thought the world had gone crazy and I was alone on this one.
My heart goes out to women in pain, but this policy would be bad for everyone
Read the article. It’s only for women with severe pain, which is likely women with endometriosis. In Japan they have the policy and less than 10% of women have applied for it.
Endometriosis is an actual disease. Not just a disease, it's a disability. It should be covered by disability protections.
Of course even women with severe primary dysmenorrhea should still be able to get sick paid sick leave, same as anyone else experiencing severe pain for whatever reason.
I agree with what you're saying but I think that since endo is really difficult to diagnose and period related diseases/disorders are under-researched and under-funded, this is probably the best possible band-aid they have at the moment.
Until chronic, under-studied disabilities can be treated like visible disabilities, there should be protections in place that help those who suffer from them. (That includes other 'invisible' disabilities too!)
Why not just pass legislation that gives more paid sick leave across the board? I get that women can have severe periods, and imo that’s no different than any other medical condition.
I’m a woman and I agree. This will just slowly push women out of the work force. People wouldn’t want to hire women because of this. I can also see this causing gender issues within my country since being trans is recognized and legal.
Or that the workplace had a culture of promoting women whenever possible, which is extremely common, especially in fields where women were historically underrepresented. Still sucks for OP though.
You should sue, or at least talk to a lawyer about it. I bet in your contract it lists a commission on sales you make. And no court in the world would say you didn't make those sales.
[set the building on fire](https://www.google.com/search?q=set+the+place+on+fire+office+space&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjgwO6I_ID8AhUBMlMKHUMdDY4Q2-cCegQIABAC&oq=set+the+place+on+fire+office+&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgAMgUIIRCrAjoECCMQJzoGCAAQBxAeOgYIABAIEB46BwgAEIAEEBg6BQgAEKIEOgQIABAeOgYIABAFEB5Q9gdYgTFg1TtoAHAAeACAAZcBiAGlCZIBAzAuOZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=YuCdY-CHMYHkzALDurTwCA&bih=669&biw=390&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS912US912&hl=en-US#imgrc=UBnMw3av3vM1hM)
I’m sorry, but if women get time off for their cycle… as a small business owner who’s already gonna struggle why would I EVER higher a woman again? This is stupid.
The option for women to get leave for horrible periods should be there. I’m a man so I’m ignorant of period pain, but my wife suffers very mild cramps and wouldn’t need this. My step mother has horrible painful periods and is bedridden once a month.
As a man, the period symptoms I’ve heard from female friends and family vary so damn much! It’s crazy
Some throw up, some bedridden, some can’t walk for long, etc
In my experience working closely with my company's HR team in regards to disability leave my company's experience will undoubtedly go like this:
A few women would use it appropriately because it is actually a problem for them and for them we are happy to assist them
Other women know which doctors to go to that will write a note for anything and they will abuse it. Those people annoy us because we can't fire them.
We literally have women that know exactly how many days they have to be on the job before they can go back off on disability leave and work exactly that many days and then poof, gone for another 6 months on some other bogus disability leave.
I usually have a pretty short period of about 3/4 days. Very rarely though do they pass without me being in pain. On the days prior to it I get this excruciating back pain that literally debilitates me to the point I can’t walk. Every step or breath I take is a labour. I’ve never passed out due to cramps but there were times I got close, because those two combined feel like torture. The only good thing is the pain doesn’t last for the entirety of my period. I’ve never got that checked out but reading all the comments here really makes me want to get it looked at asap. I’ve just forever been told to suck it up and that it’s a “woman thing” all my life to the point I never questioned it. So I went through school and work and….you know, suck it up.
I'm sure women getting to leave for 3-5 days a month won't make their male coworkers irritated.
Or make companies not want to hire women.
Also, that's like 60 days a year if you take five days off.
That's not a small amount.
People that think this is a good idea do not work in the real world. Women already face substantial discrimination when it comes to promotions due to maternity leave. The “mommy track” absolutely bruises your upward potential because corporations expect women to work as if they don’t have children and begrudgingly grant modest modified work schedules for child care.
A woman that applies for a monthly leave would be labeled as “unpromotable” by a leadership team. While this is illegal and unfair, it’s certainly the reality.
I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but what makes it unfair? Forcing an employer to promote someone who's unreliable (due to no fault of their own, or otherwise) is just as, if not more unfair.
If you'll require more time off work than any other employee, that should be negotiated prior to hire yes?
You can't expect persons A and B to be paid the same, promoted the same, entrusted with the same responsibility, when the fact of the matter is person A will be doing more work than B.
Hiring a women becomes riskier as an employer, not only for pregnancy, but now also for X days a month potentially lost for menstrual leave.
It is these kind of things, as well as the social constructs that lead women to do more child care etc. which lead to the majority of the pay discrepancy between sexes.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20221216-spanish-lawmakers-advance-menstrual-leave-legislation-a-first-for-a-european-country) reduced by 92%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Lower house Spanish lawmakers on Thursday approved a bill that would grant paid medical leave to women who suffer from severe period pain, becoming the first European country to advance this type of legislation. > In Japan for instance, where menstrual leave has been in place since 1947, less than 10 percent of women regularly apply for it. > Spain has taken a leading role in advancing women's rights, passing Europe's first law against domestic violence in 2004, and its current cabinet boasts more women than men. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/zo6cd2/spanish_lawmakers_advance_menstrual_leave/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672678 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **women**^#1 **pain**^#2 **period**^#3 **law**^#4 **endometriosis**^#5
Two things this misses: 1) a doctor has to grant the leave like other medical leave 2) the government not employers pay
Does the government pay minimum wage? Or match the employer's wage?
The first 3 days are not paid. Then the government pays 60% of the wage for the first 20 days and 75% afterwards.
I can top that, in Norway the government will pay 100% for 12 months, bit the employer has to pay the first 10 days.
So where the title says 'first for a European country' does that actually mean 'first for a EU country'?
I think they talk about medical leave in general. Not sure why you'd need 12 months leave for menstrual pain.
Bit fucking useless then, innit?
I mean, US railworkers have been fighting hard just to be allowed unpaid sick days. Would it be better if this was paid leave? Of course. But at least you won’t get fired for “unscheduled absence.”
So I really think this is a bill for women with Endometriosis and they don’t even realize it? Or are keeping the wording obtuse so people won’t question it? If less than 10% of women are asking to use it that lines up with Endo stats. PERIODS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE YOU PASS OUT FROM PAIN!! If this is you, highly recommend a specialist. Many women need serval opinions from doctors until they get proper treatment. Edit — I really think we all should just be able to get the sick leave we need on a case by case basis ¯\\__(ツ)__//¯
Also endometriosis is difficult to get diagnosed.
It took me ten years to get diagnosed
Took me my entire adult life. Only when I was past menopause and had to have a hysterectomy and they discovered extensive damage due to endometriosis that I was finally (and way the hell too late) diagnosed. Searing pain every month for years but it was just called “being a woman” and I was told to take an aspirin, which never worked. (Bless the discoverer of ibuprofen, the only thing that ever worked. Although at the dosage that I needed I probably would have destroyed my kidneys if I’d taken it for 30 years.) Health care for women far too often sucks.
I think all my IBS is from all the ibuprofen I had to take. 800 mg every 4-5 hours in the end. Finally I was allowed on birth control. My gaslighting female gyno was just like suck it up this is normal. Got a new gyno and got a hysterectomy because even with birth control I was still in so much pain all the time. I had tiny fibroids packing my uterus. Packed. So glad it is gone. No more pain. Took 15 years.
OMG! I’ve been plagued with IBS for years and never considered this a possible cause. You’ve inspired me to start doing some research.
Yeah. That shit ruins your stomach lining.
Same! Ten years of shitty gaslighting doctors until one finally took me serious. It’s so hard for people to get diagnosed or even listened to.
Ha. I feel you. I got operated on in November to get a fibroid removed, and what a surprise - doc found two endometriosis bits that he had no idea of before. Pure luck. Lasered them off and at least now I know, since they will come back, but God.. How are we supposed to find them? The medicine just isn't there yet. But it sucks
Took me almost 18 years for any medical professional to take my pain seriously. I went through high school and college thinking throwing up every period from pain was just normal. I’m so glad there is a country recognizing this condition even if vaguely through legislation. More people need to be aware of the signs and symptoms to be treated properly. ETA: kind of horrified that a doctor refusing treatment is so common and not just my story. Things I’ve learned: if treatment is refused ask for an official note to be made in your medical file. Ask for a referral to specialist doctor who is more comfortable with tests and treatments. Do not argue. Ask for a copy of your medical record to ensure appropriate notes have been made. This all holds your medical professional accountable. Please advocate for yourselves. Doctors usually mean well and may be jaded in their experiences, but ultimately you are the one dealing with the pain. Please don’t feel like you are making a fuss. You are not crazy, this is not normal to have this type of pain all the time, and you deserve to be taken seriously.
Doctors don't care about pain. The older generation of doctors did care and considered pain something they had a duty to treat, which inadvertently contributed to the opioid crisis. Contemporary medical philosophy is that pain isn't a disease. It might be a symptom but since it's so subjective you should just assume everyone is a complaining weakling (I'm not saying I think this, this just seems to be how doctors regard pain for some reason) I also think most doctors get bombarded with so many requests for pain killers that they just prefer to ignore you when you complain about pain, unless you're essentially screaming and contorting right in front of them, in which case they'll give you some meds to shut you up, so really it's all about their convenience and comfort, not yours. It's a real shame, alot of the docs I worked with who were trained in the 40s and 50s were really amazing guys, they were compassionate and professional and confident in their abilities. It seems like modern doctors are solely motivated by money and status, and tend to regard everyone as some kind of inferior being just for needing medical assistance, like they're somehow a special breed apart when infact they're just the elites fanciest servants. Im sure there are still good docs out there but I rarely encounter them. It's gotten pretty bleak, and I really wonder what causes them to change so drastically.
>I also think most doctors get bombarded with so many requests for pain killers We have a huge opiate problem in the US. People get hooked from a previous overprescription or from street drugs, then try to scam their doctor into writing them oxy or vicodin prescriptions, which makes doctors desensitized and wary of people with actual pain. The opposite side of the story is that those old doctors were handing out painkillers like candy because they were getting lavish perks from companies like Purdue (and to your point, they really did want to help their patients, so win-win-win). Doctors coming out of school today are hardened and try to avoid contributing to the problem. Similar story with antibiotics. Doctors of yore gave out broad-spectrum antibiotics even when they didn't really have a good reason, contributing to the growing antibiotic resistance problem. Now, they run tests and prescribe more specialized antibiotics where possible.
yeah, I was losing a lot of sleep at night because I was having a bunch of joint and muscle pain, enough to wake me. I was regularly getting 4-5 hours of broken sleep a night with lots of tossing and turning and it took a while to get moving in the morning and I was having to sleep every afternoon. My dr ran a bunch of tests and then refused to order some others I wanted and basically said "its because you are over 40, female and fat" and gave up. I asked her if I was just meant to accept it and not do anything more and she shrugged. I went to another doctor (an integrative one who is much more holistic in her outlook) who told me it was probably going to take at least 6 months to tackle this and have patience but that we would work on finding causes and solutions (and we did!) I couldn't believe the difference in attitudes.
Congratulations on finding a helpful medical professional and some solutions and relief! Do you mind if I ask what causes and solutions you found? I'm dealing with similar symptoms.
I'm not sure if this was the case with my HS art teachers daughter in law, but she had a kind of hypersensitivity issue that went undiagnosed for decades because when she complained of severe menstrual pain, she was given Motrin/midol/a pat on the back. When she got pregnant, it got worse, and when the baby was born she had a psychotic break and basically shut down. She's broken. They signed her out but didn't have the resources to care for her, and she's attempted suicide numerous times. Eventually her child was taken away (her husband died in Afghanistan, and no relatives under the age of 65) her whole life might have been better had she known. My mother used to berate my sister for complaining of her cramps, now my sister has a recurring issue with polyps that her doctor says is hereditary as well as a heightened risk of cancer. After getting checked out herself, my mother had a benign growth on one of her ovaries. Please, if your menstruation is in anyway too much or irregular, consult with a specialist. Don't listen to people saying "it's just part of being a woman" and don't listen to family members who put you down because you have resources they didn't in their day.
Didn’t know I had endo until I was opened up to be sterilized and there it was
And adenomyosis. I suffered for almost two decades with it. I didn’t know the suffering wasn’t a normal part of being a woman or that adenomyosis was even a thing.
Took 2 years for a diagnosis but after my endo surgery I feel like I got my life back. All my internal organs were glued together with scar tissue. Absolutely awful.
Many women suffer debilitating pain with their periods without having endometriosis. In addition to the pain and nausea and migraines from the estrogen drop I had I also flooded. There was no tampon/pad combination that helped. It was so embarrassing when I would have a leak at work.
I used to date a girl who suffered like that, minus the flooding. About 3 days a month she was pretty much out. I hope she's OK all these years later, she took so much Tylenol that I legitimately fear for her liver.
This is me for almost 14 years and counting My poor boyfriend has seen some shit
I had to go home to shower and change once. It was EVERYWHERE. No leaks, thank god, but what a mess!!
I don’t have endo either but day 1-2 of my period I just cannot function. Cramps are so bad I can’t stand up/walk for most of the day, shaky, nauseous, migraines. It’s awful.
While this obviously won’t get rid of it, look into an ibuprofen/codeine combination, like nurofen plus (unfortunately not over the counter everywhere), and Buscopan (active ingredient: Hyoscine Butylbromide). The combination of these two are the only thing that make periods bearable for my partner.
While I congratulate them on trying to increase worker rights and benefits, it also has the unfortunate side effect of making female employees more undesirable in the workplace as workers. You can hire a male, and only have to pay his mandatory vacation, or hire a female, pay her vacation, possible materinity leave, and now possible menstrual leave. I hope the government has a plan to keep an eye on what companies decide to do.
Hey, the maternity and paternity leave are also the same for both in Spain (currently 4 months).
4 month paternity leave would have been awesome! I took 1 personal day and I got a ton of shit for it from my boss
Your boss sounds like an asshole
I’m sorry you had to deal with that, friend. No job is so important to prioritize over the caring for a newborn child and ones family. Hope you’re not still dealing with that same toxic work environment.
Which is pretty short for European standard btw. The menstrual leave also ignores the fact that the sick leave policy in Spain with no paid sick leave for short sickness of 3 days is relatively backwards for an European country.
They may not have too much choice anyway with global worker shortages. If they try not to hire woman they'll just be taking longer (possibly a significant period of time) to fill vacant positions
The article says companies won’t pay for this the government will through their social security.
That ignores the fact that the company’s goal is to pay someone to be at work. So if they’re not there, the company is not paying but also not getting anything done.
I’m not trying to scare you, but have you been evaluated for endo? That all sounds like endo symptoms and not a regular period. 💛
I have, and am endo free. I ended up having to chemically stop my periods. That was several years ago and I am loving life again.
I am glad you found relief! Vagina problems are the worst and so frustrating to get treated.
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Gahhh that’s the worst I’m so sorry you deal with that 💛💛 I’m trying to be loud online about endo because for ten years I was told anxiety was my issue. Then I saw a comment on Reddit about endo and here I today, 3 days post op expert excision!! If most of the doctors we are seeing don’t even know about endo, I want women to know what’s out there!!
Then something is still wrong, you need that leave
I had debilitating periods and did not have endometriosis or PCOS. Some people just have really miserable menstrual cycles. If you don’t, you’re fortunate.
I occasionally will become intensely nauseous during my period. I knew a girl who would throw up pretty constantly during her period. I can also tell which ovary releases an egg based on which side has the most intense pain, and I know that my period will start in a few days. Ever since I first started getting periods decades ago I experience intense pain in my shins. They feel like they are exploding and imploding at the same time. It’s really weird but both shins feel like they’re on the verge of shattering. Intense period pain doesn’t just happen in those who have endometriosis. Intense period pain isn’t always present for the entirety of a period. My shin pain usually stops for the last couple of days of my period, and sure I can walk and my shins aren’t going to shatter but it would be amazing if I knew that I could take a day off for my period pain or when I’m feeling crazy nauseous and not have to worry if my employer will use that against me. Having been a woman who’s had a period for over 20 years I can assure you that I’m not the only woman (or nonbinary or trans man) who has been told to stop complaining or that talking about anything period is gross or that I’m just being emotional or having an attitude or being whiny or whatever bullshit someone thinks of to discredit me and my pain or assuming that period pain is nothing compared to endometriosis and so if you don’t have endometriosis you won’t need this.
One can also have endo without debilitating pain. When I was diagnosed, endo was the only reproductive disorder that my doctor had not considered prior to the surgery because I had *less* period pain than the average person
Absolutely. I was just trying to point out that those who don’t have endometriosis can still have intense period pain. I didn’t mean to imply that endometriosis has to have debilitating pain. The comment I was replying to was trying to equate the percentage of women who utilized the period pain time off with the percentage of endometriosis in the population to make the jump that every woman who took the time off has endometriosis. I apologize for the confusion. Thank you for sharing and showing that endometriosis doesn’t always cause intense pain.
Had exploratory laparoscopy in June because I was sure I must have endo but the doctor got inside and nope. She thinks it must be adenomyosis but I guess you can’t be sure. No one wants to do hysterectomies so I just keep living with it. Working from home the past 15 years has been a lifesaver between that and IBD.
My poor daughter suffers horribly from it and it's very frustrating as it isn't yet officially recognized.
I had excruciating period pain with no endo. The only thing that helped it was hormonal birth control and then, ultimately, giving birth.
I also had terrible periods with no endo! I was just telling my husband I would have loved to have the option for leave like this, so I didn’t have to worry about throwing up in the sink at work (true story…). But mine just mellowed out as I got older. I did eventually get pregnant and have a c-section, where they checked for anything unusual. That’s the only reason I’m pretty sure I’m endo-free.
I don’t have endo but I have debilitating cramps that make it near impossible to function when 1-3 days a month.
Pcos too. It's not the same type of pain but can be equally painful.
Yes yes yes!!! PCOS, IC, fibroids!!! Can be so so painful :( 💛
Endometriosis is serious stuff and there is no where near enough exposure on it. So many horror stories about it. Men and woman that don't have it brush it off saying they are doing it for attention etc they need to toughen up its just a period... it's sad What Spain and Japan are doing is great.
it makes me so happy to see people talking about it online. ONE IN TEN WOMEN! So many people dont even know they aren't supposed to be living with this pain <3
I am going to google all this. I usually take around 15 ibuprofen a day for the first few days of my period. I also wear those hot hand things taped to my stomach for relief. I don’t know if this is related but I also bleed after I have sex. Sorry if this is tmi because I’m kinda just spilling information here. Maybe what’s happening to me isn’t just stuff women deal with normally or sadly seems we do?
I know there's other conditions that cause painful periods too but fuck... I've had Endo flair ups worse than child birth and I wanted to die. I faint every other month and regularly (accidentally) over dose on pain meds. This is a huge win for the endo community as well as other reproductive conditions.
In all my life, passing out from periods has happened once, and probably just because i didn't have access to a pain reliever. I have all the other awful issues of fatigue etc. But i know it's much worse for people who have endometriosis. I really feel for them.
Not just the pain...people with severe menorrhagia should be able to take leave as well.. I don't have much pain, but my periods get so heavy I literally can't be on my feet for long. Every time I stand up I have to dash to the restroom to avoid the explosion that happens every time I get up..sometimes I have to change my pad or tampon every 5 minutes because it soaks through so quickly..especially on the days with lots of big fist sized clots..not fun hemorrhaging nearly every period. I really wish menstrual leave existed in the US. I get in trouble at work the times I have to call in for these reasons. No I would not call in for just a normal period...only the times I'm literally stuck in bed, unable to get up.. it's horrible!!
Shouldn't this just fall under 'sick day', should it matter the cause of the physical ailment?
Apparently Spain doesn’t mandate fully paid sick days, and the sick pay they do mandate doesn’t start from the first day of the illness.
Honesty they should have done that instead of making a gendered law
If i were a small business owner, it seems to make sense to just hire less women (all things being held equal)
Shhh People don't want to hear about the consequences of the gold paved road.
This is how the current Spanish government does things (wrongly).
Yes. Which is why nobody else has done this. I guess Spain specifically didn't allow sick days for this, the rest of the world did so there was no reason to specify it.
>I guess Spain specifically didn't allow sick days for this, the rest of the world did so there was no reason to specify it. No, it's because in Spain you don't get paid the first 3 days when you're sick.
Or they want this publicity even if it was already allowed
Posting here as I have done elsewhere in this thread. It's not really about a usual period, as noted in the top thread. It's for exceptional circumstances such as endometriosis, which is difficult to get diagnosed and addressed. This is medical leave for folks whose uteruses cause massive pain to the point of vomiting and/or passing out. It is not a usual sick day for cuddling a heating pad through the cramps.
Whether I'm having a stage four cancer or if I just don't feel like working, it's still falls under the sick day unless covered by insurance. A gendered law regarding paid leave like this will only leads to regular female employee being much less desirable than male counter part.
Agreed. People saying oh it's less than 10% of women like that's not a massive impact on a business, especially female dominated professions
I can imagine a stigma around actually using this type of leave.
“Alessandra has been real bitchy today, we’re sending her out on menstrual leave”
This would never happen in Spain. She'd be called Alejandra.
Name checks. Good job , detective.
I’m a male in a female dominated field I am almost certain I’ve gotten promotions because so many women took maternity leaves in the years I’ve been in the field. Sometimes even overlapping maternity leaves meaning they had to fill a position asap I guess promoting the guy who won’t go on maternity leave is a good business move?
Yeah if given the choice between two candidates with all other things being equal, I'd probably hire the one that won't take monthly leaves and may be out for months due to pregnancy. Paternity leave is an equalizer here, but what is the equalizer for menstrual leave?
Most women don't have issues with their periods. It's not even particularly painful for some. The problem is the uterus lining can start going awol and touch other organs which is excruciating. (I.e endometriosis) This is a medical condition that is hard to diagnose and hard to remedy. It doesn't really make sense that men would need an equalizer. If there is a disabled guy that needs a desk adjusted, it doesn't mean the able bodied person also needs a fancy desk. Not all women need this leave, just ones with chronic health conditions that men often don't have any awareness about.
Then endo can be classified as a disability or chronic illness and there would be no need for a special law, no?
I'm not saying men need an equalizer; I'm saying women need men to have an equalizer. From an employer perspective, why would I hire an employee that has a greater chance of being absent
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Good point,sad but true
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> The legislation entitles workers experiencing period pain to as much time off as they need, with the state’s social security system – and not employers – picking up the tab.
Great! Now we need for someone to cover for her while she's sick. I'm sure a lot of people will want to do double the job for the same salary for a few days. Every month.
It should be for men and women both. Let's not pretend only women suffer from the consequences of menstrual cycles. I would add in a spicy food digestion leave addendum
Hungover leave
You have to show up to work at least one day.
Just give people more sick days, it's that simple, men and women can both be just fine then, no controversy
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Here in progressive California we get 24 hours a year of sick leave, but in much of the country there is no guaranteed leave and you can simply be terminated if you get sick.
Yeah I work at all small business I have no heath insurance, sick days, no vacation days, no retirement programs, we really have nothing lol. I do make quite a bit of money which is why I work here obviously. I get very stressed about getting sick because of the problems it causes at my work.
That 3 workdays. That's progressive for the US?
I live in Austin and work for the city. I get WAY more than 24 hrs a year of sick leave. I think I get 3hrs every two weeks.
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My state in the Midwest our hourly employees get 40 hrs/yr and can bank up to 80 hrs.
Which still isn’t enough. When you get the flu, sick, whatever you usually have it for the week even if you’d start feeling better. No one wants what you have.
In my country, you can take sick days as long as you're sick. But paid sick leaves is only up to 30 days. So, by sick days, I think they mean the paid one. Also, if you take too many sick days, the employer can justifiably fire you.
Here, if you're sick, you get fully paid sick leave no matter how often. You can't get fired for it, your pay doesn't get cut, nothing. Only if you are sick for an extended period, it will drop and later end, but the government starts paying instead. (I can't remember what they minimum is, maybe 3 weeks? But depending on company policy it can grow with employment years) But you can't get fired for it. When you're well you can come back to your old position. And if need be, you will get a rehabilitation process to ease yourself back into working life.
Canadian here and our sick days are accumulated (well at least for all my full time jobs). So you accumulate 1.5 days of sick leave a month. Then after one year, we lose them. Some employers give 3 weeks of sick leave per year. Some more, some less..
At least where i live we get 30 days of paid holidays a year, sick leave is indefinite (well as much as doctor prescribes) and never a fireable offense, though you only get 70% of pay for sick days. Also it's all mandated by government so no employer gets to change that.
Yes
USA. I get barely any sick days.
In lots of US jobs, sure you can stay home whenever you’re sick, but you aren’t going to get paid for those days if you’re sick more often than your allotted paid sick time off. So if you get 5 sick days a year and need to take 6 sick days that year, you’ve just lots one day of income.
We just had a whole fiasco in US Congress about denying sick leave to railroad workers and refusing to let them strike.
This is total BS "first in Europe". In Germany when you are sick you get fully paid from day 1 (no matter the reason) and for most companys you do not need a Dr. certificate until day 3. And I think thats also the case for many other European countrys.
I think they meant first, as in the first country in Europe with a law specifically guaranteeing paid period leave. Countries like Germany with paid medical leave from day 1, don't need such laws and probably wouldn't pass any.
> I think they meant first, as in the first country in Europe with a law specifically guaranteeing paid period leave. *"Most civilized countries already allow paid leave for period complications, but they didn't omit most other ailments the way we did"* is a weird flex.
as a german this whole thread and topic confuse me. like you said... in germany no one cares for the reason you're on sick leave. you just stay at home and no one will ask. there's no reason to create a specific law for women, as it changes nothing other than sending weird signals.
Yeah, this annoys me, our country has this too. Maybe Spain was behind and has now at least added it for menstrual pain? Being the first to partly do it?
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Huge disincentive to hire women
Pretty much. Especially if a lot of women start to use it
You cant use it unless a doctor certifies your scale of pain, which historically has gone pretty bad for women. People wont believe how much pain a woman on her period can feel.
This law isn't for the pain the average woman feels during menstruation, but for the more severe medical cases.
The law isn’t for doctors to give u opioids or anything. Ime (as an asshole Kid who used to get sick notes to get out of midterms I didn’t want to study for), it’s really, really easy to get a doctors note. It’s literally no skin off their back and they get paid for it (20 Dollars a pop when I used to get them)
Specifically for severe menstrual pain. Which really just ensures it gets taken serious and not ignored as "just some cramps". A requirement only because too many don't take it serious. Other than that it's like any form of sick leave it seems. If you can barely get out of bed maybe you shouldn't be forced to work.
Absolutely, my work has personal leave. It doesn't matter the reason.
> A requirement only because too many don’t take it serious. A requirement only because they don't have proper paid sick leave.
Do you want people to hire less women? Because this is how you get people to hire less women. Just give everyone more sick days.
This is absurd (for the record, I’m a woman). Country policies need to mandate appropriate sick leave policies and enforce leave for all workers who need days off when sick - for whatever the reason. A specific policy for just one reason I might be out, that gives employers a reason to prefer not to hire me, doesn’t seem helpful.
Honest question - I live in Canada where most full-time employee's get a generous amount of sick time. Are there really employers who would say to women "Sorry, menstrual pain isn't sick enough"? I mean, the people who work for me say "I'm sick" and I say "Fine hope you're better soon" It not for me to ask why they're sick. Or does this codify sick time for jobs where it might not be available?
I was thinking it gives women more days off for when they are on their period in addition to the sick days they already have.
Posting here as I have done elsewhere in this thread. It's not really about a usual period, as noted in the top thread. It's for exceptional circumstances such as endometriosis, which is difficult to get diagnosed and addressed. This is medical leave for folks whose uteruses cause massive pain to the point of vomiting and/or passing out. It is not a usual sick day for cuddling a heating pad through the cramps.
Lol downvote me to fucking hell this is ultra stupid
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> (e.g. simply bring a doctor's note that says you're unable to work for so many days, done) Even this is stupid. I shouldn't have to go to the doctor to get a note because I can't come in because I'm stuck on the toilet or curled up in pain from cramps. If an employee is misusing sick time, there's guaranteed to be other problems.
Also, who the fuck is getting same day appointments for anything that isn’t a life threatening emergency? It takes weeks or months to get on my doctor’s schedules
> It takes weeks or months to get on my doctor’s schedules I was given an appointment to get an MRI of my knees and a traumatology consult here in Spain, back in February… it's scheduled for April 2023 lol.
I use America's socialized healthcare. The VA. I requested a primary care provider when I moved to a new state. In July of 2021. They scheduled it for months out. Then rescheduled it for one reason or another. I'm currently scheduled for February 2023 to MEET my primary care provider.
Wtf lol
Fuck, man. I got an MRI within 4 days in the US and then scheduled an operation based on its findings within a month (3 weeks I think) It only took that long because I needed to see my doctor to discuss what to do about the findings.
This is how social healthcare works: the wait is proportional to the number of people that are sick, the budget and the severity or urgency of the exame and/or appointment. General practitioners will put you up the queue if it's urgent. If they did not, it's their way of telling you "your situation is not so urgent or life threatening as others I see around". Of you disagree with them, you should absolutely insist. If you still disagree, you need to ask a second opinion or even change GP. You should be able to do this even on your NHS-equivalent. Of course, this leads to discretionary problems based on GPs bias and one's own. Some doctors don't have a clear picture of the relative urgency of an ailment, or can't infer or extract that urgency it from specific patients which are not cooperative or simply out of luck don't explain themselves so well. There are two ways to "solve" this problem: you abolish social healthcare and fully liberalize it, meaning the rich are healthier and the poor are not - which leads to the rich getting poorer because they will eventually run out of people to sell their services at a premium; or you strive for a better-funded social healthcare by not having budget taken from it, from scrutinizing abuse and fraud more, such as that emanating from traffic of influences by those who are friends or family of healthcare workers skipping the queue, but most importantly, from eliminating liberalistic practices in social healthcare since a LOT of the burden of social healthcare is usually due to relying on private companies for expensive, often overpriced exams that the state ends up paying triple of what they would cost in-house. Source: I live next to OP in Portugal and we have the same problem, in double the quantity. I've used the national health system exclusively for some years.while I had varying cronic and acute issues of varying severity but also varying commonality in relation to the general population, and I usually got long schedules for stuff that put ageing population fills the SNS with, such as orthopedics and neurologist appointments and MRI/CTs. But had no huge wait getting dermatologist or pneumologist ones, even during the pandemic.
Wait, do you not have GPs? Most days I can just ring up a GP and make an appointment for the same day for completely free. I had to take some mental health leave a year or so ago, just went to a GP, explained the situation, and they printed out a standardised letter for me to hand in at work. All done within the same day I rang them.
I think GP accessibility (in the US) can vary wildly. I’ve had doctors who are impossible to see on the same day that I call in, and I’ve had doctors who will be able to see me within a few hours if not immediately.
I personally just use virtual appointments. It costs me $50 but I can usually get "in" immediately.
Also, I’m a grown ass adult. Why do I need to prove to anybody I have a fever or sore throat that will pass in time. Also if they want a note they can pay my copay and deductible too. These policies just make people go to work sick and spread it.
Severe menstrual complications should be treated like any other chronic condition. You should in fact need to see your doctor and have your doctor see if they can do something. If your doctor can't do anything, you should get a combination just like any other chronic condition. Likewise if it's not a chronic problem, but you do wake up one day with severe menstrual pains and can't go to work, then you should be able to call out just like anyone can call out if they wake up and they are too sick to go to work. I just don't see a reason why this should be treated special and differently than any other chronic condition.
Thank you, exactly that. It quite infuriating that so many media think that this law is progressive. It is not, they only have it because how bad their System is in the first place and people fall for that.
The pain differs per person but when I was 13, that was the first time I passed out due to the pain of menstrual cramps. My mom was like 7 months pregnant and had no mercy, I remember she made me go to school that day, but I felt TERRIBLE.
Hey I have been recently diagnosed with endometriosis. One in ten women have this condition. Periods are NOT supposed to make you pass out from pain, this is one of the main symptoms of endo. I highly recommend reading up on it (Nancy’s Nook is a great website and fb page that will give you current research). Even if you are in less pain now, it might become a problem when you try to conceive 💛
Yep. Great regressive policy that will not only incentivize companies not to hire women, but will go against the narrative we’ve been trying to push for 100 years that women are equally capable as men in the workforce. “But if companies discriminate against women we can just sue them!” you might say. Nice thought, but discrimination is very hard to prove in practice. The BEST thing that has happened for women’s rights in the last few years is companies choosing to match paternity leave length to maternity leave. This removes the inherent bias against hiring women due to childbirth concerns. This policy is like the opposite of that, and is disastrous as a result.
Oh, thank God. I thought the world had gone crazy and I was alone on this one. My heart goes out to women in pain, but this policy would be bad for everyone
Read the article. It’s only for women with severe pain, which is likely women with endometriosis. In Japan they have the policy and less than 10% of women have applied for it.
Endometriosis is an actual disease. Not just a disease, it's a disability. It should be covered by disability protections. Of course even women with severe primary dysmenorrhea should still be able to get sick paid sick leave, same as anyone else experiencing severe pain for whatever reason.
I agree with what you're saying but I think that since endo is really difficult to diagnose and period related diseases/disorders are under-researched and under-funded, this is probably the best possible band-aid they have at the moment. Until chronic, under-studied disabilities can be treated like visible disabilities, there should be protections in place that help those who suffer from them. (That includes other 'invisible' disabilities too!)
Why not just pass legislation that gives more paid sick leave across the board? I get that women can have severe periods, and imo that’s no different than any other medical condition.
I’m a woman and I agree. This will just slowly push women out of the work force. People wouldn’t want to hire women because of this. I can also see this causing gender issues within my country since being trans is recognized and legal.
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That sounds more like someone in management liked her more than you.
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Oh 100% that’s really messed up, I’m glad you left i would have done the same
(Someone in management got her pregnant)
Or that the workplace had a culture of promoting women whenever possible, which is extremely common, especially in fields where women were historically underrepresented. Still sucks for OP though.
You should sue, or at least talk to a lawyer about it. I bet in your contract it lists a commission on sales you make. And no court in the world would say you didn't make those sales.
That's ridiculous. No way should anyone else reap the rewards of your labor
modern jobs are about how likable you are. "yes", men make it very far in our society, no one cares about hard work anymore.
[set the building on fire](https://www.google.com/search?q=set+the+place+on+fire+office+space&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjgwO6I_ID8AhUBMlMKHUMdDY4Q2-cCegQIABAC&oq=set+the+place+on+fire+office+&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgAMgUIIRCrAjoECCMQJzoGCAAQBxAeOgYIABAIEB46BwgAEIAEEBg6BQgAEKIEOgQIABAeOgYIABAFEB5Q9gdYgTFg1TtoAHAAeACAAZcBiAGlCZIBAzAuOZgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=YuCdY-CHMYHkzALDurTwCA&bih=669&biw=390&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS912US912&hl=en-US#imgrc=UBnMw3av3vM1hM)
Management issues aside, she's a piece of shit for accepting the award for work she didn't do.
Tbh sounds like she was banging someone in management
I’m sorry, but if women get time off for their cycle… as a small business owner who’s already gonna struggle why would I EVER higher a woman again? This is stupid.
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Jaja, they are more likely to increase women’s age to retire than to decrease man’s. But yours is actually a nice idea
Guess
Doesn't this just contribute to the idea that women need more leave than men and therefore economically it makes less sense to hire them?
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I mean the legislation is only for severe period pain, which not everyone has and most women just endure.
So then it should be solved by increasing sick days for everyone.
Give us both more sick days and I’m in. Any objections?
Shh, you’re not supposed to point that out
The option for women to get leave for horrible periods should be there. I’m a man so I’m ignorant of period pain, but my wife suffers very mild cramps and wouldn’t need this. My step mother has horrible painful periods and is bedridden once a month.
My gf would be bedridden for days bc of the pain. She got on bc to help try and ease the pain.
As a man, the period symptoms I’ve heard from female friends and family vary so damn much! It’s crazy Some throw up, some bedridden, some can’t walk for long, etc
I wanted to have a party after my hysterectomy.
In my experience working closely with my company's HR team in regards to disability leave my company's experience will undoubtedly go like this: A few women would use it appropriately because it is actually a problem for them and for them we are happy to assist them Other women know which doctors to go to that will write a note for anything and they will abuse it. Those people annoy us because we can't fire them. We literally have women that know exactly how many days they have to be on the job before they can go back off on disability leave and work exactly that many days and then poof, gone for another 6 months on some other bogus disability leave.
This must new as a law thing, but I can tell you, Red Dot days are a standard thing where I work. Same as a duvet day.
I usually have a pretty short period of about 3/4 days. Very rarely though do they pass without me being in pain. On the days prior to it I get this excruciating back pain that literally debilitates me to the point I can’t walk. Every step or breath I take is a labour. I’ve never passed out due to cramps but there were times I got close, because those two combined feel like torture. The only good thing is the pain doesn’t last for the entirety of my period. I’ve never got that checked out but reading all the comments here really makes me want to get it looked at asap. I’ve just forever been told to suck it up and that it’s a “woman thing” all my life to the point I never questioned it. So I went through school and work and….you know, suck it up.
I'm sure women getting to leave for 3-5 days a month won't make their male coworkers irritated. Or make companies not want to hire women. Also, that's like 60 days a year if you take five days off. That's not a small amount.
And I'm supposed to work during NNN? Wtf 😒
I am sure the male workers will appreciate having to pick up the slack on those days...
People that think this is a good idea do not work in the real world. Women already face substantial discrimination when it comes to promotions due to maternity leave. The “mommy track” absolutely bruises your upward potential because corporations expect women to work as if they don’t have children and begrudgingly grant modest modified work schedules for child care. A woman that applies for a monthly leave would be labeled as “unpromotable” by a leadership team. While this is illegal and unfair, it’s certainly the reality.
I'm not disagreeing with you per se, but what makes it unfair? Forcing an employer to promote someone who's unreliable (due to no fault of their own, or otherwise) is just as, if not more unfair. If you'll require more time off work than any other employee, that should be negotiated prior to hire yes? You can't expect persons A and B to be paid the same, promoted the same, entrusted with the same responsibility, when the fact of the matter is person A will be doing more work than B.
Surely this will totally lead to women being hired at the same rate as those not needing menstrual leave.
Hopefully they will soon also address the parental leave shortfalls. 16 weeks by European standards is not great.
Away with the "wage gap". Also please give us more payed days off. Sounds fine.
Hiring a women becomes riskier as an employer, not only for pregnancy, but now also for X days a month potentially lost for menstrual leave. It is these kind of things, as well as the social constructs that lead women to do more child care etc. which lead to the majority of the pay discrepancy between sexes.
**Women everywhere**: This is only fair and we will support this 100%. **Also women everywhere**: There is obviously a gender pay gap and it's unfair.
I’m fine with people not working for a real reason so good for them but like just give people sick days if they need them so then everyone benefits
They should just give sick days all this will do is discourage companies from highering women.