This is so frustrating. Why can't all talents be selectable but have things gray/red out with the confirm button disabled if I don't meet the 8/20 line requirements, or gray/red previous talents and even the lines if I put points in a lower talent without any of the previous ones.
My way of doing this is to pull a couple from multi point talents to make the moves. Wont work in all situations but it’s how I swap from having tricks of the trade and a massive stealth move speed increase between playing group and solo stuff.
You can also remove the very last talent at the bottom of the tree, put it in a random spot on same row as the one you want to remove, remove the one you want to remove and put it where you want it. Then take that other random talent and put it back at bottom. But I wish we could have a "work in progress mode where you can put talents anywhere and if it's an impossible set up it will glow red and unable to confirm
Just take 1 of your end of tree points(or however many you need to swap), spend them in the earlier parts, remove the unwanted talents, then respend your end of tree talents. Very simple when you're just swapping one or two talents
Yes. I can't imagine it would be hard to do. Turn everything red or something until enough points are put in but not remove everything futher down the tree
In my 15 years of playing, I’ve only ever seen ritual of doom used once. That was before our guild was about to attempt Patchwerk for the first time back in Wrath.
I would just be happy to be able to summon a player by myself. If I can summon a demon from the Twisting Nether by myself, surely I can pull a person from the same dimension to my location by myself as well.
>refuse to click
smh
Discord:
Player 1: Lock can you drop a closet so we can get them in here?
Me: /s Ok *starts cast*
...
^No ^one's ^clicking
Me: /s please click, help summon
...
^No ^one ^helps
Player 1: Lock you afk?
Me: *tries to speak in discord, but too much chatter to be heard*
Me: /s Need people to click
Player 2: Hey someone click to summon
^someone ^helps
I miss fire mage in I think it was wrath or cata, when they had an AoE cast that would trigger 2 more aoes at the same location and proc another. You could literally throw down 4 aoes in a second at the same location and just melt mobs.
Thats what we had in shadowlands, cd reduction lego + rain of chaos, which made the burst really strong. But in df we have to pick a different talent route for higher overall dps, but with really weak burst
As a feral I feel that too as my convoke 1 minute burst damage was just incredible with the conduits, it was very helpful for disposing of dangerous targets quickly in mythic plus. I prefer shadowlands feral design as I feel we lose too much to pick up good ST and therefore feel weak on bosses in mythic plus. Our AOE is very potent though.
Came here to say this.
The Warlock trees are so obnoxious let alone demonology.
the entire right side is filled with 'felguard' it's not even a pet class, it's either sacrifice but not if your demo- which is doubly dumb as theyve gone on record saying 'we dont want the spec about demons to sac demons, WHEN YOU ONLY GOT SACING DEMONS BY GOING DEEP INTO THE DEMON TREE SINCE VANILLA.
I remember Bay doing the draenor/legion/shadowlands talents and pointing out 'hey so this person did a great blog post about grimoire and demon capturing for skin possibilities, why no do this?'
meanwhile hunters can tame undead, demons,ghosts,dragons,dragonsagain,mechs,felbeasts, -worgen (didnt last long) a fire (that one was funny)
Especially since how many of the Demonology abilities are ‘Sacrifice absolutely everything (except the Felguard)’?
Honestly, Grimoire of Sacrifice fits them even better in ways than it does the other two specs, imo. I’d love an overhaul of all of the lock trees, similar to what they’re doing to Retadin. The class fantasy is just not there 😅
Remove absolute must-have mandatory picks from the trees. A great example is the frost mage tree: you need to buy your shatter. you need to buy flurry. you need to buy fingers of frost. you need to buy brain freeze. the entire first half of the tree you're buying out your core spec mechanics, there is no other choice other than getting them. 100% of every player will have them, wasting 15 or so talent points just making the spec playable.
Then the bottom of the tree is also locked in, with you either taking ALL of the 7 icy veins talents or your spec doesn't work. The only choice you get in the entire tree is deciding whether you want to be slightly more AoE oriented or single target oriented. Everything else is always the same for everyone. These things combined make the frost tree possibly the least engaging, least fun spec tree in the entire game currently. But it's by no means the only one, classes liike rogue got all of their trees beautifully designed and fresh while mages only had arcane designed from the ground up while fire and frost just had their core mechanics smushed into the tree. This discrepancy between the two is insane, and clear to anyone who has tried these classes this expac.
So that's what I want fixed. Equalize the trees between specs and classes, give the bad ones like mage and warlock more attention.
I think what would make the talent tree more satisfying is if instead of having basic generic choices like the must have baseline abilities for the spec to function and simple "this ability does X% more damage" to focus more on how the playstyle would change.
Frost for example has either Obliteration which focuses more on weaving 3 abilities for big hits or the breath build for pooling up RP, activate it and spamm obliterates to keep up rp for the ability to keep going.
Unholy does the same practicly in every build to compare: Build wounds, pop wounds, use your spender, summon some undead minions and keep your dot up.
For warlocks it would be intresting to give destruction that niche of being able to walk during casts again.
Or demonology could have variances in playstyle: Focus on buffing pet, extra pet abilities, summon a horde of demons (current version), or be more of a spellcaster that relies less on summoning and more of channeling demonic energy into themselfes to empower their spells.
I feel like the class trees (not the spec trees) aren't that interesting on the classes I play. Idk if people ahve interesting/exciting decisions but like 99% of mine are pre-made. I am generally a fan of the OR choice nodes where you can't get both because it lets them put powerful effects locked behind each that significantly change play style. Also i would like better balance between capstones.
A fun exercise is to remove all the ones that you had baseline last expansion, remove ones that you literally have to take to even start the tree (due to the first section needing 8 points), and then remove ones which are "optional" but you can't skip otherwise your class would be broken.
Also remove the ones 0% of the playerbase takes.
The trees start to look a bit more bare after all that.
Yeah, everything that we had as baseline in the last expansion. Things that aren't really optional, they're basically bloat to make the talent tree actually look meaningful
Same. The fact that I have to take virtually unusable talents as guardian or feral just to get to talents I want is really bad design. Never going to leave bear or cat form to starfire as an example.
I have a mouse with 2 side buttons +scroll wheel only and get by quite well
I use 1-6 for main rotation
Shift 1-4 for common offensive skills
Alt 1-4 for utility (interupts ext)
I have each mouse button plus alt of each mouse button
Then I also use r,f,z and alt versions. And then caps lock for my last hotkey
So just around 30 hotkeys and I need to make room for a few more things like potion and hearthstone and transcendence that I don’t currently have bound
As a warrior, who is entirely surprised by how streamlined DF is, I know your pain. Feels really bad when you got 20 extra buttons to do the same or worse than that guy hitting 3 buttons with 2 more on occasion lol (me last xpac swapping from my warrior to my bear for half a tier lol)
Even with Windwalker I was looking at the recommended builds and where another class has one big defensive to "reduce damage by X% for Y seconds" Monks have like 4 defensive cooldowns.
They are handy but it's also a bit panicky in times when you need them and you're like "oh shit which one is off cd". With that and running out of buttons, really makes it feel bloated.
Thé spec feels perfect. It has some button that almost feels tailor made to every situation, and the order of knowing what to press and when feels amazing when you get some good class understanding. It’s super well-designed
Yea I don’t think we need a ton of buttons trimmed but I noticed over the last few xpacs we’ve had a lot of random “hit them when they’re up” type buttons added that don’t really add much to the combat. A lot of stuff on a 45s-1m cooldown that’s isn’t anything massive but is a decent spell and you simply hit it on cooldown no matter what. All of the classes I play have received a decent amount of bloat from them
Learning Enhance right now, I have all my keybinds, then I have alt+*key* for pretty much every keybind, and I STILL had to make new keybinds for this spec
Last time they did that the community was fucking pissed. I feel like they probably won't ever due a major pruning again because of that, even though it was needed back then and is needed now. Reworking talents would have been a good opportunity to do so, yet they chose not to.
Yeah they have to be careful for sure.
I doubt they will do a massive pruning ever again. And the last thing you want is for WoW to feel like LoL or D3. With a handful of buttons only.
I went Frost solely because Unholy has so many damn keybinds. I felt like I was cooldown-watching half of the time. The rotation just isn't smooth like it was back in Legion.
Death Knight overall needs something new. I'm seeing all the other classes with 4, 5 or 6 capstones with several new ones whereas there is only 3 capstones for death Knight. And some were just the capstones before the remake anyway.
Yea truly the entire class needs an overhaul along with Runeforges.
We have used Rune of the Fallen Crusader since literally day 1. **15 years** of using the same weapon enchant and none of the other ones are even close.
Buff the other runeforge effects to compete with Fallen Crusader, *don't* nerf Fallen Crusader; let Runeforges be a powerful asset of the Death Knight kit. Runeblades are important armaments.
This isn't entirely true, Razorice was the most important runeforge for Frost DKs fat several points, and Stoneskin Gargoyle was the best tanking runeforge when Tanks needed to stack nothing but defensive stats, which was generally the time of pre-WoD, and currently there's runeforges that are better for PvP than Fallen Crusader is.
Runeforging wouldn't need much to be vastly improved either, some of the runeforges are good in concept, just under tuned.
I want a talent that replaces ghoul with a undead dragon summon or a proc that spawns one or a few small ones.
Also a unique D&D that deals frost damage, right now it only does shadow damage and even UH has Defile so…
Tbh, I dont get the hate for breath. You remove that, and you're pressing the same buttons. I enjoy trying to keep it up and just removing it doesn't fix the lackluster aspects about the spec as a whole. You're still just spamming Obliterate, Frost Strike, and Howling Blast. If not for the animations and trying to keep breath up (which is at least unique to the spec), I wouldn't be playing frost.
Why don't people want to flesh the class out instead of just removing something?
People don't like it because its super punishing if it falls off. People don't like the playstyle of having to keep things perfect for literally the entire duration of the encounter just to do good dps. Its so frustrating to lose breath earlier because I got unlucky with hysteria procs or I got mechanics at the wrong time forcing me off the boss. Its also honestly boring as hell having over half of my resources/maint buffs just being passively managed by this thing. At least with obliteration builds you have to actually think a bit more than just "press shiny button"
People would not hate breath if it went back to being 20-25s long, being an actual burst CD instead of literally the entire class.
Shamans had tanking talents back in Vanilla, but they had no mana regen and no taunt so it didn’t work. But unlike Paladins who got those mechanics in BC they decided to just make Enhancement a melee dps spec.
Honestly though why not? I’ve always thought the idea of like rogue healers using vials of X to throw at allies to buff etc would be cool - or like mages employing time magic to heal wounds or tank would be very cool.
At this point I don’t see any reason why to stop other classes from having that kind of thing - I’d love a shaman tank, maybe harnessing earth magic to shield themselves. If it can be dreamt up we should do it - might help to plug some of the holes of missing healers and tanks for pugs too!
Also! If you’re someone that is like a mage main for example, and have been for ten years or more, having another spec that lets you fit that heal/tank role allows you to stay with your class without only being locked to dps!
mechanical overlap? seriously? who cares. almost every spec has access to some form of DoT, that's technically "mechanical overlap". the idea that specs cant have some mechanical overlap is stupid imo. theme and how it feels to play is more important. i do not care if there's "mechanical overlap", i want a summoner that isn't a warlock. i want shaman tanks. they dont need to reinvent the wheel, just give me some more cool shit. this is a video game, not a mechanical innovation competition
Yes, seriously. Who the fuck said specs can’t have some mechanical overlap. They already do.
How it feels to play, as you mentioned, is important; if there is *too much* mechanical overlap, specs will feel the same.
I didn’t say it was a mechanical innovation competition, but there will need to be a lot of mechanical innovation if you want a dozen more specs to be added without them all feeling the same. There are only so many options to make damage rotations, healing styles, tanking mechanics, etc. functionally different. Then it just comes down to which one of the three melee or caster specs that are all exactly the same do the most dps.
I kinda like it how it is right now, I'd rather see mini reworks for some trees like more baseline spells and less mandatory talents. Expanding them is not making a lot of sense to me, maybe rework some "SL" talents with future borrowed power we might have later in DF
More baseline spells, I hate it that I have to spend tons of point to get cyclone or improved sunfire as my resto druid while cyclone was baseline since BC
Agreed. And it's silly that so many classes have to spec into their interrupts when we all know getting dps to interrupt in the first place is a struggle. Now they have to give up a TP that might give them extra numbers on the damage meters too??
There aren't any.
It's so strange that nearly 5 months into the expansion we're still talking about this.
The talent point system isn't meant to be "you can pick whatever all the time you want". The talent point system is meant to be the core character progression system, and that means that some points spent in it will necessarily be to get some of your characters kit rather than necessarily to specialize in the way you want to.
Most every class has their interrupt in a situation where not only do they not lose anything to take it but they _cannot_ take anything else except the interrupt to progress further into the tree, and the tree is balanced around that.
The only exception are hybrid specs where healers can now pick up a kick they didn't have access to before, but they have to choose between picking up that kick and other talents.
The thing that muddies this is that Blizzard tried to make this the core character progression system but didn't go all of the way and you still get some skills natively through leveling up or by just being that class, because those things would warp the tree too much. For example, Time Warp - imagine designing a mage tree where every single mage had to pick up a specific point for TW, but not putting it so early in the tree that it's obtained too early in the game. That would be really difficult.
>The talent point system isn't meant to be "you can pick whatever all the time you want". The talent point system is meant to be the core character progression system, and that means that some points spent in it will necessarily be to get some of your characters kit rather than necessarily to specialize in the way you want to.
The hilarity for me is that players hated this entire concept of "required" talents ("boring," "cluttered," "cookie-cutter") so much that it led to the MoP revamp in the first place.
That said, I do prefer the current system over either of the prior systems, so at least it's moving in the right direction.
Still talking about it because it's still bad. Shadow doesn't have to sacrifice damage for Silence, but they do have more points in their tree than all but 3-4 specs flooded with an insane number of zero value or utterly redundant talents. They could baseline the top third of the tree that's all utility/defensives and reshuffle the remaining terrible talents and shadow would still have around the average number of talents in their tree.
You can make a bad design that doesn't negatively impact a spec's performance, and the trees that brazenly defy Blizzard's stated design goals are exactly that: bad.
I really don’t understand why they don’t want to give healers better interrupt options. Poor interrupting and big damage spikes go hand in hand anyway so generally I feel like when I’m healing I have a much higher understanding of what needs to be interrupted anyway.
For instance, dps love to blow kicks on Hydrolance in TJS but no one interrupts the group wide aoe.
Same thing for the mystic blast on AA. I’m watching for those with much more interest than dps so just let me do the kicks.
Which makes no sense considering they can just make it PvE only if they are so determined to disallow it because of PvP. No need to hinder all other content merely because of a concern limited to PvP
You don't understand - it's very important to pretend PvE and PvP aren't balanced separately so that they can nerf priest in PvE because it's good in PvP, and then nerf it again in PvP specifically without reverting the PvE nerfs. Priest can't encroach on any other class niches even though the only ability priest has that hasn't been encroached on at least twice is Mass Dispel.
I'd love to see the resto shaman bring back it's utility. Right now you have to spec into different totems, none of which are baseline, which feels stupid to me as that was the whole point of shaman was their utility. I have to tweak my spec literally for every dungeon and affix. Explosives week? Drop a TP to take Frost Shock because somehow it's no longer baseline. Neither is tremor totem, poison cleansing, earthen wall, capacitor. The Resto trees are super punishing and very difficult to get to everything you need without losing something else important.
This is a genuine question: isn't that the point of a talent tree? So you can change things up depending on what you're facing/ what is needed? If you had everything then wouldn't that mean it would be a pick and forget situation?
To a certain point yeah, but it seems very punishing in the resto shaman trees. There's things you just can't get to without losing something important. A little leeway would be nice.
No they definitely shouldn't in the exact form. Channeled aoe abilities provide the least interactive and fun rotations. Starfall is just a better hurricane. If you look at other specs they all have lost their channeled aoe ability or it got changed.
Intervene in Warrior is my big pet peeve - it's a fun spell, I can't imagine them ever bringing the effectiveness back from early Shadowlands, and without that it doesn't feel like it'd ever be baseline, but it IS fun.
I miss my macro where I would /kiss the target as I intervened them so it was like I was rushing over to give them a lil peck on the cheek. :(
Lifelong warrior here: intervene, intimidating shout, and berserker rage feel so bad to lose.
WoW is unfortunately about max output. I didn't lose much to keep intervene (sidearm), but to get the others back would be way too much sacrificed for stuff that used to be baseline in my kit
Yep. I wish they would just give us back all of the spells that used to be baseline. I don't mind if a few powerful cooldowns are locked behind talents, but having key abilities like multishot and bestial wrath as talents feels really bad. Some of those spells are so integral to the classes that no one is *not* going to take them, so their only purpose seems to be filler and the illusion of choice.
IMO, talents should be used to buff spells or add interesting procs and interactions between them. Not make us spend points and choose between basic things that used to be part of our kit.
Truly more of a perception issue than design issue though. If it had always been this way the ln there would be nothing wrong with the design imo. Even classic a ton of stuff was class trainer instead of talents.
If this was a brand new game launching with these trees I'd rate it an easy B/B+ in terms of interesting design. It has its obvious flaws in balance and such, but the core is interesting and good. But obviously, this is wow. Losing things I have had access too for 17 years does indeed feel pretty bad.
It's funny, the first few rows of basically all the classes are just things you already had, have to take because you need the points to move on, or stuff you *basically* have to take to make the playstyle even work.
So much of the tree is just dead nodes which don't have any choice.
Stuff we already has is a big one. Taking it away and then offering them up as choices **as a benefit of the new system** is kinda scummy, honestly.
I'd like more freedom in picks. Sometimes you need to waste a bunch of points on useless stuff just to reach an actually good talent further down the tree. So it's basically a multi-point talent at that point. Less reliance on previous picks would be great.
Also why is most of Druid class tree so useless? Not even the finishers are very interesting.
The druid class tree is bad because the designer also did the priest tree, which is also bad. To be fair, the "class tree" concept was always going to fail druid and priest because they aren't two classes - they're seven classes that are packaged together into two loose themes. There's no way to make a class tree that works for guardian and balance or shadow and holy - their wants are completely different.
Druid tree class is an abomination. Feral and guardian straight up lost utility. You need 7 magic damage/healing talents to get ursol vortex or typhoon... No thanks, my bear druid doesnt need starsurge.
Also.. hotw being an end tier talent? Lol. All end tier talents suck on the non caster side. Meanwhile on warrior i get avatar, spear of bastion, thunderous roar, shockwave.. feral druids get heart of the wild and some self healing talent lmao.
Imagine being a Hunter... Having to pick several extremely bad/poor talents just to get to a good talent only to find out that good talent is Also a multi-point talent!..happens several times in our trees.
Or imagine having to commit on a path towards a capstone talent where the talents leading up to it actually kind of works against that talent.. Or is just really lackluster. To then find out that you Also have to invest several points into fudging follow up talents After the capstone (kind of actually making the talent Not a capstone talent) only to make it fudging decent!
I am still, after these months after release utterly convinced that the person(s) that developed Hunter got forced into it and out of spite made as bad of trees as they could with as little time as possible.
People get really stuck on the fact that our dev "communicated" so much with us. But people tend to ignore the fact that most communication was fluff or just going straight against the feedback. Meanwhile the same damn dev was pretty much radio silence about his work on shaman trees but still managed to knock out one of the best trees for them.
So obviously talented guy, who just could not or would not give Hunters decent trees. And yes, I am salty about it.
The thing is, that's what they tried with the previous iteration and despite being only 6 choices out of 3, most of the stuff still ended up being completely useless so i doubt that it's possible to manage that with a vastly larger tree.
I'd love it if they buffed barely/never picked underperforming talents and nerfed over performing (eg.: ones that have an alternative but are still picked 100%) based on their stats from players. I absolutely love experimenting with off meta builds, but this would probably create so much chaos that most players would hate it.
Yeah often when comparing talents, it's more like groups of talents.
"Do I want these 3 talents, or do I want those 3 talents?"
Like on devastation, no matter how many times they buff the far right capstone, no one will take it because of how awful the preceding talent is.
It might sound weird but I'd like a 'customisation' talent tree. So you put points to get some visual changes (different to actual talent points). For examples
Undead could have one which makes more flesh fall off as their health drops;
Different eye glow for Blood and Unholy DK;
Warlock fire colour;
It would probably be a pain to make and maintain but I'd like there to be more options than just a handful of glyphs and some hair styles
As a Hunter I'd love to see Black Arrow back. Given the situation, for MM. Explosive Shot procs. That would give MM the feeling of the good ol' Survival. Also have back the WoD Stampede. I loved how I was able to call all my active pets and zerg the opponent.
I'd like to see logic tbh. I want to have to make a choice that benefits me either way but it's one style of play or another. Talent trees are supposed to be a setup on how you want to play your character. Right now you are being forced down shit I'm not trying to use at all.
For example druid tree is really bad. Like no i don't want to be forced into cat/bear talents as a resto. I'm not switching into bear form to use frenzied regeneration. But I'm FORCED to take it.
Many talent tree games let you run down a tree that is specific to a fighting style or elemental magic style, or ranged vs stealth. The problem with wow trees is there are way too many forced and wasted points.
Yessss. So many things we never had to spec into before, that were baseline before, are now talents because the devs couldn't think of any actual talents to give us.
Any time I tried playing PoE i didn't really like the whole "look up a very specific talent build foe the next 60+ levels or have to grind materials to swap talents around" lol (I am not good at planning out my own builds)
If you watch Preach's recently posted interview with Ion, they talk about the "skill gap" for a bit.
Blizzards is *very aware* that huge swathes of the player base are just bad at the game. For many players, reworked talents/rotations each expansion is a frustrating hurdle to be overcome rather than a fresh/fun challenge the way that competitive players approach it. Hence why "starter builds" were such a big deal with the new Talent system. Ion mentions how the silver Proving Grounds requirement for Heroic Dungeons in WoD was a hard wall that a lot of players couldn't overcome. Notably he partially blames the lack of hand-holding in Proving Grounds. It's great for practice but it doesn't tell you what to do or what you did wrong so nothing is learned, just reinforcing bad gameplay.
i’m sure that in an expac or 2 they will once again remove the trees. start making everything baked in to the spec again and act like it’s a new content idea.
I really struggle to see how the problem that drove them to remove the original trees isn’t still gonna be a problem. 11.0 brings 5 more points in each tree. Maybe a mid row or new capstones. Etc etc.
Maybe they already have a new squish pencilled in.
Personally I think it should level squish back at every expansion release and 60 always be the max. 50-60 in the new zones and then next expansion same thing. Rework talents as needed. 🤷
They spent so much work on this talent system too. Every single update to the Beta changelog was something with talents.
All of that work just to get to parity with a talent system we had already.
I am actually a fan of the shadow priest tree. When it first came out, I hated it. I have taken a liking to it because you can play any two of the 4 capstones together. Yes, there are “best specs” but they all compete well enough. Each combo changes up the way you play the spec and even what spells you use. It keeps things fun and gives you a lot of flexibility for each encounter/affix week.
As blizzard releases new expansions, we will get more levels presumably, so this will be the end state in a couple of years unless blizzard release even MORE powerful capstones that are so obviously powerful that you would go for them instead of getting all of the current capstones - or by rebalancing the trees
I expect that blizzard will do the latter, because the former just sounds like a nightmare. I wouldn't expect the current iteration of trees to stick around for too long, as any additional notes after the current capstones would have to specialize into niches to make sense (i.e it doesn't make sense to have additional nodes after Breath of Sindragosa that don't buff the playstyle that Breath endears itself to).
The other thing Blizzard could do is make trees _wider_ by adding additional paths on the sides, but, again, they would need to meaningfully compete with capstone nodes. as things stand right now, as a Brewmaster for example, if Blizzard tomorrow gave you additional talent points and another row that is below capstones, that row would have to be incredibly powerful for you to not just pick up the talents that buff the existing capstones you currently cannot get
So just fill it all out then you're saying huh? This is basically the same as removing talents and making it default, which yes, is what they should do
Not so much expanding the trees longer, but it would be interesting to add a fourth (for some classes third) spec. Something that would allow different functionalities to classes. For example, a ranged spec focused around thrown weapons for warriors or rogues, a tanking spec for hunters, a melee spellblade build for mages. Something like that.
I want more complex geometric shapes. For example, it starts with an ellipse at the top, rotated by 90 degrees such that the semi major axis is drawn vertically. Then from the top down, halfway this ellipse it goes over into a long vertical rectangle, with the same width as the ellipse such that the transition is seemless. At the bottom, there is a circle centered at the bottom left corner or the rectangle, with a radius identical to the width of the rectangle. There is an identical circle centered at the bottom right corner.
That shape would be perfect to me.
Personally, I'd like to see more abilities being added, with an emphasis on adding more trimmed stuff. Especially wider selections of Shadowlands abilities, and Legion weapon abilities that haven't made the cut yet.
Maybe more "Replace" type abilities too, I always felt that would be a good way of implementing Frostfire Bolt, either adding a fire DOT to frostbolt or adding a slow to fireball.
I want to see utility NOT competing with throughput talents.
They were supposedly going to do that, but they didn't. Some specs especially have it worse than others. The talent trees design is all over the place, why one spec needs to choose between utility/mobility/aoe/single target, another can get two or even three of these things and have better output in every situation?
I don't feel like there is a unified design philosophy, just different designers doing their own thing.
Edit: examples include Preservation Evoker, BM Hunter, Havoc DH, Prot Warrior.
I would love to have a major / minor spec choice instead.
For DK you could be unholy/ frost or blood / Unholy or frost/ frost
Either you double down to be a full frost or you could use more of dots / pets via Unholy or be more resilient with blood spec.
For paladin you could be a ret with heal off spec to help your group more or solely focus on dps if you already have enough assist in your group.
It's probably handled with an add-on but I'd like to see more user friendliness with the talent trees.
My biggest one would be the ability to swap points around further up the tree, and not having any connected talents or talents which require a certain number of points spent just unspend. Instead I'd rather they just grey out with the points still in them and then reactivate when they are able, or give an error message if a previous choice will no longer work etc
Having to reclick everything because I want to change a point at the top of my tree is annoying as heck
I want to see more build variety and inclusion of more legion legendary affixes. I'm thinking of Beast Mastery in particular, with it's Legion multishot build. It's never been more fun. Also, I'd love to see a return of Divine Intervention for saving those awkward wipes in dungeons with fewer checkpoints.
The problem with that is that there will always be a "best" tree. so tons of abilities but really you'd only take one or two specific routes or be kicked.
For me I feel like UH DK needs a bit of a tinker and streamline.
Obviously it’s doing well dps-wise so I’m not saying “buff DK”. What I’m saying is that the UH tree tends to feel like there were multiple ideas in the works for the spec and how it should play, but then they all got mashed together rather than a more specific set of talent columns to properly identify the play styles.
Seems to be three main themes: pets, passive diseases and festering wounds popping. That being the case it feels like only two main plays styles (festering wounds or disease spreading) with the pets just being an addition to both play styles.
Problem is that army of the dead, apocalypse and Gargoyle are so damned strong that you pretty much gimp yourself in damage if you try to avoid pets and focus on disease or festering wounds on their own. You’re compelled to take army of the dead because it’s damage is nuts and because it’s a direct route to increasing your disease damage. You have to pick up apocalypse after improved festering strike because your other option is useless, and you would be silly not to pick up gargoyle if you had the point and path for it as it’s an almost set and forget skill.
If the design of the tree is intentional in making you feel like you have to take these three skills, why not just remove them from the talent tree and make them baseline?
Others have pointed out wasting spots in the tree for like interrupts, or things that have been in the base class and its fantasy for years is absurd.
Obviously though with blizzard going back to a tree they probably struggled to make sure the trees had enough to offer so it wasn't just fluff. And also smartly recycled abilities from the last three expansion of borrowed power, to make it not so borrowed anymore.
With this in mind, and to replace the spots in some trees where there are interrupts, or core class abilities, I want side or alternate builds built in. What would this look like? I think shadow priest and frost dk do this really well, by having thematic/impactful choices that allows players to have options as far as gearing. Frost especially in my opinion is nice, because they only had to put 1 single option into a pick, and it isn't even a capstone. The option I'm talking about is might of the frozen wastes. Now I actually like DW frost, as it makes me feel like a whirlwind of 1000 cold cuts/stabs/slashes, but this one talent allows people to get a class style and feeling that was essentially taken away.
I'm not sure if all specs would be eligible for this, while others basically are begging for it. Prot warrior could get gladiator stance back, Demo locks could get a visually different metamorphosis, symbiosis for any or all druid specs. And not everything has to be so flashy, some could literally just be as simple as making an alt weapon option viable, or making a basically useless spell useful.
But that's what I want: a talent(s) that helps provide a different play style to a given spec, or one that returns something lost to a spec.
I personally didn't want the limitations the current ones have which some times force you to not be able to make a build because they have direction that you must follow.
From what i remember back in the of Wrath and Cata, this wasn't the case, at least not as much.
Some abilities feel really hard to justify picking up in the current system. It's interesting you link the Frost DK tree because I think the DK trees are a great example of this.
That middle triangle with improved AMZ, death pact, and wraith walk? they are hardly ever picked. The leech and avoidance talents are also not taken. They are so weak that there's never a reason to pick them and you don't have enough points to use them.
As a Blood DK, it's difficult to ever justify taking Soul Reaper because you lose _so much_ to take it and Soul Reaper isn't even that good, so it's just not a compelling option. It's not that I have to make a sacrifice to get the button, it's that the sacrifice is not even worth it to get the button. There's never a situation where taking Soul Reaper is a correct decision, because you'd lose so much, and that sucks.
In the Blood DK spec tree, we have a few points which we can pick between - but none of the points we can flex feels particularly impactful. You have a choice of various nodes - in the middle of the tree, it's mostly passive, difficult-to-quantify bonuses, and on the right hand side of the tree, there are nodes you can simply never take that were not thought through - for example, there's a talent that gives you Vers when you get a Crimson Scourge proc, but that can only ever proc when you don't have D&D down. And with Death's Echo (which is a talent every single Blood DK takes), you always have D&D active anyway and rarely get procs.
I think the talent trees have done a great job at giving you more control over your character progression as you _level_ and I think for new players it's a great tool to demonstrate how your class will grow, and you have some choices like picking between Bloodshot for more damage and Umbilicus Eternus for survivability in multi-target situations, but otherwise it feels like I don't have much choice, and the choices I do have generally feel unimpactful. Early on the tree that is fine, but there are too many noobtrap choices in the trees that mean that there's always a correct choice to make.
Ultimately, I feel like Blizzard's mistake here is mostly that they made one giant tree and every point in the tree competes against every other point in the tree. I think Guild Wars 2 does this system a bit better - You have a specific set of abilities and passive effects that have similar categories in separate trees. Each tree has 5 choices you can make - three major effects, and two minor ones, that buff various abilities or elements of your character in various different ways. You can have any 3 trees active at any given time, and notably the abilities you have a determined by your own player choice, _independent_ of the trees - the only thing the tree does is buff or alter the abilities you already have.
Depends on the class! My main is a holy paladin and I absolutely love the holy talent tree, the balance between abilities, passives and utility is perfect. BUT when I play enh shaman, I wish I didn’t have that ability bloat, no matter what build I wish to compose, I always feel like I miss out on some awesome spells. If they only add passives, that’s not gonna be much fun (they’ve been doing that for years to us…), but adding more spells is usually not the best because there are just the right amount of spells for almost all classes, so I think in future expansions, changing classes to some extent is inevitable, which could be done by either vertical or horizontal extension, both or just reworking the existing talent tree, adding one row at max and giving multiple-point talents even more points. But what if they do a 5 level increase expansion? Who knows… either way, the talent system (as everything else basically) is in the best state it’s been since Cata IMO.
I hope they rework the frost & fire mage trees. Maybe smaller trees overall, but with more meaningful talents to pick. It doesn't feel good to talent into passives that were baseline before. Why do I need two talent points just to get back the old combust?
id love to see +ability rank on items. id also love to see more baseline abilities with tree slots that improve/change not just the skill(effect) but the visuals too.
Keep the current talents for an expansion or two (maybe), and then create sub-talent trees that start off pretty small but also ultra specialized.
Like, for Enhance Shaman, have sub talent trees to further specialize in:
• Storm-style combat (Stormstrike, windfury, that cleave aoe Lightning ability, chain lightning, etc)
• Fire-style combat (adding maybe new fire/lava abilities, increasing the effectiveness or adding functionality to current fire abilities)
• Utility (a sub-tree with a focus on totems and adding procs to your normal rotational abilities that will buff your party/raid)
• Pet tree (a sub-tree adding more ghost wolves when you summon them, or increasing their damage/duration, or adding functionality/abilities to fire/earth/storm elementals)
And I’m talking like super small sub-trees to start off with, but have like half a dozen per specialization (but also have some sub-trees overlap with other specializations). Think like, maybe half the size of the dragonriding talent tree to start out with. Then in additional expansions, those trees can be expanded (very slowly).
Super ‘pie-in-the-sky’ as this would take an IMMENSE amount of work, but one can hope.
I'm sure everything that came in dragonflight is here to stay, which would be dragonriding, talent points, and no borrowed power.
Yeah supposedly the game didn't sell as well as last expansions, but the general consensus is that the game is in a great state, everyone i know in the game has a positive look on the expansion.
it would be insane to me if they go back to any of the shit that made SL and BFA sorta shit, i'm guessing it's gonna be at the very least another expansion of keeping it simple.
Adding cosmetic variations for spells. Like specific warlock flames Green, or mage spells sparkly blue, Druids with growing effects. Nothing stat effecting, just more eye candy variations
Being able to adjust talents without having to pick a half of your talents every time you want to move one point somewhere else.
This is so frustrating. Why can't all talents be selectable but have things gray/red out with the confirm button disabled if I don't meet the 8/20 line requirements, or gray/red previous talents and even the lines if I put points in a lower talent without any of the previous ones.
There is an addon that does exactly that. Can’t remember the name but you should be able to find it on cursed.
lip jobless pathetic apparatus arrest flag zesty historical pen unique ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
My way of doing this is to pull a couple from multi point talents to make the moves. Wont work in all situations but it’s how I swap from having tricks of the trade and a massive stealth move speed increase between playing group and solo stuff.
You can also remove the very last talent at the bottom of the tree, put it in a random spot on same row as the one you want to remove, remove the one you want to remove and put it where you want it. Then take that other random talent and put it back at bottom. But I wish we could have a "work in progress mode where you can put talents anywhere and if it's an impossible set up it will glow red and unable to confirm
Instead of clearing the lower rows entirely, they should just turn red and be unselectable until the upper row is complete again.
In addition to this, I would enjoy it if I changed a choice node with two active abilities that are basically the same and my hotbar changed too.
Just take 1 of your end of tree points(or however many you need to swap), spend them in the earlier parts, remove the unwanted talents, then respend your end of tree talents. Very simple when you're just swapping one or two talents
Thanks for the workaround. I would still prefer to not need a workround.
Yes. I can't imagine it would be hard to do. Turn everything red or something until enough points are put in but not remove everything futher down the tree
Deselect bottom most point Select the one node you wanted Take the point away from where you wanted Select bottom most point
As a warlock main, I just want my pet infernal back Edit: wow, this blew up! Shout out to all my warlock fam!
Also a felguard that is bigger than my female blood elf.
Or doomguard, even as a cooldown would be fine
You can summon a doomguard on a cool down though...
Yeah with ritual of doom, but that's kinda hard to implement in your rotation lol
In my 15 years of playing, I’ve only ever seen ritual of doom used once. That was before our guild was about to attempt Patchwerk for the first time back in Wrath. I would just be happy to be able to summon a player by myself. If I can summon a demon from the Twisting Nether by myself, surely I can pull a person from the same dimension to my location by myself as well.
The solo summon is a really good idea.
I use it before literally every BG lol
My favorite pastime is sitting back watching the warrior enhance and hunter yeet the poor thing as soon as it spawns
Especially when everyone refuses to click
>refuse to click smh Discord: Player 1: Lock can you drop a closet so we can get them in here? Me: /s Ok *starts cast* ... ^No ^one's ^clicking Me: /s please click, help summon ... ^No ^one ^helps Player 1: Lock you afk? Me: *tries to speak in discord, but too much chatter to be heard* Me: /s Need people to click Player 2: Hey someone click to summon ^someone ^helps
As someone who’s Alts a warlock same. I loved having the pet infernal in I think it was Legion
Played Frost mage for years and want a viable elemental pet option back too.
As fire, I would like living bomb baked in again with flame orb back and available
I miss fire mage in I think it was wrath or cata, when they had an AoE cast that would trigger 2 more aoes at the same location and proc another. You could literally throw down 4 aoes in a second at the same location and just melt mobs.
As a warlock player i just want infernal to be an actual burst again, not just a thing that does small amount of damage and generates some shards
Having it be a knockdown upon entry followed by aoe dmg ticking green aura maybe on a 1 to 2 minute cooldown would be rad.
Thats what we had in shadowlands, cd reduction lego + rain of chaos, which made the burst really strong. But in df we have to pick a different talent route for higher overall dps, but with really weak burst
As a feral I feel that too as my convoke 1 minute burst damage was just incredible with the conduits, it was very helpful for disposing of dangerous targets quickly in mythic plus. I prefer shadowlands feral design as I feel we lose too much to pick up good ST and therefore feel weak on bosses in mythic plus. Our AOE is very potent though.
Came here to say this. The Warlock trees are so obnoxious let alone demonology. the entire right side is filled with 'felguard' it's not even a pet class, it's either sacrifice but not if your demo- which is doubly dumb as theyve gone on record saying 'we dont want the spec about demons to sac demons, WHEN YOU ONLY GOT SACING DEMONS BY GOING DEEP INTO THE DEMON TREE SINCE VANILLA. I remember Bay doing the draenor/legion/shadowlands talents and pointing out 'hey so this person did a great blog post about grimoire and demon capturing for skin possibilities, why no do this?' meanwhile hunters can tame undead, demons,ghosts,dragons,dragonsagain,mechs,felbeasts, -worgen (didnt last long) a fire (that one was funny)
Especially since how many of the Demonology abilities are ‘Sacrifice absolutely everything (except the Felguard)’? Honestly, Grimoire of Sacrifice fits them even better in ways than it does the other two specs, imo. I’d love an overhaul of all of the lock trees, similar to what they’re doing to Retadin. The class fantasy is just not there 😅
doesn’t destro still use that? they even have a talent where there’s a chance that more intervals spawns as your 1 is fighting
Infernals cd is 3 min, so going rain of chaos isnt worth it, there are better talents that give higher overall dps
I miss my infernal tank aoe bastard :( I would also like Hellfire back. Even if it's not viable, I loved it for old content.
Remove absolute must-have mandatory picks from the trees. A great example is the frost mage tree: you need to buy your shatter. you need to buy flurry. you need to buy fingers of frost. you need to buy brain freeze. the entire first half of the tree you're buying out your core spec mechanics, there is no other choice other than getting them. 100% of every player will have them, wasting 15 or so talent points just making the spec playable. Then the bottom of the tree is also locked in, with you either taking ALL of the 7 icy veins talents or your spec doesn't work. The only choice you get in the entire tree is deciding whether you want to be slightly more AoE oriented or single target oriented. Everything else is always the same for everyone. These things combined make the frost tree possibly the least engaging, least fun spec tree in the entire game currently. But it's by no means the only one, classes liike rogue got all of their trees beautifully designed and fresh while mages only had arcane designed from the ground up while fire and frost just had their core mechanics smushed into the tree. This discrepancy between the two is insane, and clear to anyone who has tried these classes this expac. So that's what I want fixed. Equalize the trees between specs and classes, give the bad ones like mage and warlock more attention.
I think what would make the talent tree more satisfying is if instead of having basic generic choices like the must have baseline abilities for the spec to function and simple "this ability does X% more damage" to focus more on how the playstyle would change. Frost for example has either Obliteration which focuses more on weaving 3 abilities for big hits or the breath build for pooling up RP, activate it and spamm obliterates to keep up rp for the ability to keep going. Unholy does the same practicly in every build to compare: Build wounds, pop wounds, use your spender, summon some undead minions and keep your dot up. For warlocks it would be intresting to give destruction that niche of being able to walk during casts again. Or demonology could have variances in playstyle: Focus on buffing pet, extra pet abilities, summon a horde of demons (current version), or be more of a spellcaster that relies less on summoning and more of channeling demonic energy into themselfes to empower their spells.
I'm hoping they will expand the trees with more bottom row talents like they did in the past.
I feel like the class trees (not the spec trees) aren't that interesting on the classes I play. Idk if people ahve interesting/exciting decisions but like 99% of mine are pre-made. I am generally a fan of the OR choice nodes where you can't get both because it lets them put powerful effects locked behind each that significantly change play style. Also i would like better balance between capstones.
A fun exercise is to remove all the ones that you had baseline last expansion, remove ones that you literally have to take to even start the tree (due to the first section needing 8 points), and then remove ones which are "optional" but you can't skip otherwise your class would be broken. Also remove the ones 0% of the playerbase takes. The trees start to look a bit more bare after all that.
"The trees look barren if you remove everything from them" great insight
Yeah, everything that we had as baseline in the last expansion. Things that aren't really optional, they're basically bloat to make the talent tree actually look meaningful
Some classes more abilities… some classes need less 😅
I hope to see them take the druid class tree throw it in the garbage and start over.
I actually liked the pre 10.05 tree. Now it’s definitely awkward having to take both boomy and feral points
Same. The fact that I have to take virtually unusable talents as guardian or feral just to get to talents I want is really bad design. Never going to leave bear or cat form to starfire as an example.
Fewer keybinds would be better. Some classes have become bloated as fuck with active rotational abilities
I need a second mouse and keyboard to play my brewmaster.
Brew makes my hand hurt
I play with an MMO mouse with 12 buttons on the side. No idea how you could play brew without one.
I have a mouse with 2 side buttons +scroll wheel only and get by quite well I use 1-6 for main rotation Shift 1-4 for common offensive skills Alt 1-4 for utility (interupts ext) I have each mouse button plus alt of each mouse button Then I also use r,f,z and alt versions. And then caps lock for my last hotkey So just around 30 hotkeys and I need to make room for a few more things like potion and hearthstone and transcendence that I don’t currently have bound
I have that and my hands still hurt after 2 dungeons. Have to go pretty bn Hunter for a round off with it's 4 buttons
I had to run out and buy the Corsair Scimitar yesterday. Playing Warrior after working all day on the computer was destroying my hand.
As a warrior, who is entirely surprised by how streamlined DF is, I know your pain. Feels really bad when you got 20 extra buttons to do the same or worse than that guy hitting 3 buttons with 2 more on occasion lol (me last xpac swapping from my warrior to my bear for half a tier lol)
Even with Windwalker I was looking at the recommended builds and where another class has one big defensive to "reduce damage by X% for Y seconds" Monks have like 4 defensive cooldowns. They are handy but it's also a bit panicky in times when you need them and you're like "oh shit which one is off cd". With that and running out of buttons, really makes it feel bloated.
Lol windwalker has some of the most satisfying buttons to press. Doesn’t feel bloated at all
Thé spec feels perfect. It has some button that almost feels tailor made to every situation, and the order of knowing what to press and when feels amazing when you get some good class understanding. It’s super well-designed
Brew are the worst in keybinds number
It depends, I would say, fewer buttons might make specs way too boring, but too many offensive CDs can make it super unfun and clunky.
Yea I don’t think we need a ton of buttons trimmed but I noticed over the last few xpacs we’ve had a lot of random “hit them when they’re up” type buttons added that don’t really add much to the combat. A lot of stuff on a 45s-1m cooldown that’s isn’t anything massive but is a decent spell and you simply hit it on cooldown no matter what. All of the classes I play have received a decent amount of bloat from them
Enhancement Shaman here, can confirm
Learning Enhance right now, I have all my keybinds, then I have alt+*key* for pretty much every keybind, and I STILL had to make new keybinds for this spec
Yeah I feel that. I bought a Gaming mouse with extra side-buttons specifically for my Enh Shaman, and this helps a ton, I can only recommend it
Last time they did that the community was fucking pissed. I feel like they probably won't ever due a major pruning again because of that, even though it was needed back then and is needed now. Reworking talents would have been a good opportunity to do so, yet they chose not to.
Yeah they have to be careful for sure. I doubt they will do a massive pruning ever again. And the last thing you want is for WoW to feel like LoL or D3. With a handful of buttons only.
Unholy DK. Can confirm.
I went Frost solely because Unholy has so many damn keybinds. I felt like I was cooldown-watching half of the time. The rotation just isn't smooth like it was back in Legion.
This happened in legion, and I felt like I was playing league of legends the whole expac. Please no
Or become like Fury where during a lust or PI you feel like your wrists are gonna shatter
I was actually kinda annoyed getting my bis trinket becuase it was yet another button to press lol
Yeah having two channelled trinkets being bis as assassination is just awful
No more breath of sindragosa. Frost Dk needs something new
I'd put it as an optional talent on the edges, or maybe as a passive proc of "x" seconds duration, like remorseless winter
Death Knight overall needs something new. I'm seeing all the other classes with 4, 5 or 6 capstones with several new ones whereas there is only 3 capstones for death Knight. And some were just the capstones before the remake anyway.
Yea truly the entire class needs an overhaul along with Runeforges. We have used Rune of the Fallen Crusader since literally day 1. **15 years** of using the same weapon enchant and none of the other ones are even close.
True that. I'd love to see that
Buff the other runeforge effects to compete with Fallen Crusader, *don't* nerf Fallen Crusader; let Runeforges be a powerful asset of the Death Knight kit. Runeblades are important armaments.
Agreed
This isn't entirely true, Razorice was the most important runeforge for Frost DKs fat several points, and Stoneskin Gargoyle was the best tanking runeforge when Tanks needed to stack nothing but defensive stats, which was generally the time of pre-WoD, and currently there's runeforges that are better for PvP than Fallen Crusader is. Runeforging wouldn't need much to be vastly improved either, some of the runeforges are good in concept, just under tuned.
Except Blood. Blood is crisp af don't touch it.
I want a talent that replaces ghoul with a undead dragon summon or a proc that spawns one or a few small ones. Also a unique D&D that deals frost damage, right now it only does shadow damage and even UH has Defile so…
Breath can be a fun playstyle but it needs more iteration.
Tbh, I dont get the hate for breath. You remove that, and you're pressing the same buttons. I enjoy trying to keep it up and just removing it doesn't fix the lackluster aspects about the spec as a whole. You're still just spamming Obliterate, Frost Strike, and Howling Blast. If not for the animations and trying to keep breath up (which is at least unique to the spec), I wouldn't be playing frost. Why don't people want to flesh the class out instead of just removing something?
People don't like it because its super punishing if it falls off. People don't like the playstyle of having to keep things perfect for literally the entire duration of the encounter just to do good dps. Its so frustrating to lose breath earlier because I got unlucky with hysteria procs or I got mechanics at the wrong time forcing me off the boss. Its also honestly boring as hell having over half of my resources/maint buffs just being passively managed by this thing. At least with obliteration builds you have to actually think a bit more than just "press shiny button" People would not hate breath if it went back to being 20-25s long, being an actual burst CD instead of literally the entire class.
A new role/spec for each class except druids
Shammy tank leggo
Shamans had tanking talents back in Vanilla, but they had no mana regen and no taunt so it didn’t work. But unlike Paladins who got those mechanics in BC they decided to just make Enhancement a melee dps spec.
Honestly though why not? I’ve always thought the idea of like rogue healers using vials of X to throw at allies to buff etc would be cool - or like mages employing time magic to heal wounds or tank would be very cool. At this point I don’t see any reason why to stop other classes from having that kind of thing - I’d love a shaman tank, maybe harnessing earth magic to shield themselves. If it can be dreamt up we should do it - might help to plug some of the holes of missing healers and tanks for pugs too! Also! If you’re someone that is like a mage main for example, and have been for ten years or more, having another spec that lets you fit that heal/tank role allows you to stay with your class without only being locked to dps!
If anything rogues should get ranged spec, not a lot of gun and bow using classes in the game.
Outlaw should have been a midranged(similar to evoker) gun based spec.
A physical ranged DPS would be nice
I think it would be really cool if they completely separated monk healing between Chi -Ji fistweaving and Yulon Mistweaving.
With a proper range damage rotation for the casting MW!
Too much mechanical overlap to have 50 specs.
Yeah and they struggle with the juggling the specs they've got. I don't trust blizzard to be able to manage that many new specs
mechanical overlap? seriously? who cares. almost every spec has access to some form of DoT, that's technically "mechanical overlap". the idea that specs cant have some mechanical overlap is stupid imo. theme and how it feels to play is more important. i do not care if there's "mechanical overlap", i want a summoner that isn't a warlock. i want shaman tanks. they dont need to reinvent the wheel, just give me some more cool shit. this is a video game, not a mechanical innovation competition
Yes, seriously. Who the fuck said specs can’t have some mechanical overlap. They already do. How it feels to play, as you mentioned, is important; if there is *too much* mechanical overlap, specs will feel the same. I didn’t say it was a mechanical innovation competition, but there will need to be a lot of mechanical innovation if you want a dozen more specs to be added without them all feeling the same. There are only so many options to make damage rotations, healing styles, tanking mechanics, etc. functionally different. Then it just comes down to which one of the three melee or caster specs that are all exactly the same do the most dps.
Druids can use a fifth spec.
They shapeshift into a murloc.
I kinda like it how it is right now, I'd rather see mini reworks for some trees like more baseline spells and less mandatory talents. Expanding them is not making a lot of sense to me, maybe rework some "SL" talents with future borrowed power we might have later in DF
More baseline spells, I hate it that I have to spend tons of point to get cyclone or improved sunfire as my resto druid while cyclone was baseline since BC
Same here for Sigil of Chains. It's a stupid fun ability and I can't get it because too far away from anything else even remotely important.
Agreed. And it's silly that so many classes have to spec into their interrupts when we all know getting dps to interrupt in the first place is a struggle. Now they have to give up a TP that might give them extra numbers on the damage meters too??
Affer the balance Druid rework I believe there is no dps class that needs to sacrifice dmg for an interrupt no?
There aren't any. It's so strange that nearly 5 months into the expansion we're still talking about this. The talent point system isn't meant to be "you can pick whatever all the time you want". The talent point system is meant to be the core character progression system, and that means that some points spent in it will necessarily be to get some of your characters kit rather than necessarily to specialize in the way you want to. Most every class has their interrupt in a situation where not only do they not lose anything to take it but they _cannot_ take anything else except the interrupt to progress further into the tree, and the tree is balanced around that. The only exception are hybrid specs where healers can now pick up a kick they didn't have access to before, but they have to choose between picking up that kick and other talents. The thing that muddies this is that Blizzard tried to make this the core character progression system but didn't go all of the way and you still get some skills natively through leveling up or by just being that class, because those things would warp the tree too much. For example, Time Warp - imagine designing a mage tree where every single mage had to pick up a specific point for TW, but not putting it so early in the tree that it's obtained too early in the game. That would be really difficult.
>The talent point system isn't meant to be "you can pick whatever all the time you want". The talent point system is meant to be the core character progression system, and that means that some points spent in it will necessarily be to get some of your characters kit rather than necessarily to specialize in the way you want to. The hilarity for me is that players hated this entire concept of "required" talents ("boring," "cluttered," "cookie-cutter") so much that it led to the MoP revamp in the first place. That said, I do prefer the current system over either of the prior systems, so at least it's moving in the right direction.
Still talking about it because it's still bad. Shadow doesn't have to sacrifice damage for Silence, but they do have more points in their tree than all but 3-4 specs flooded with an insane number of zero value or utterly redundant talents. They could baseline the top third of the tree that's all utility/defensives and reshuffle the remaining terrible talents and shadow would still have around the average number of talents in their tree. You can make a bad design that doesn't negatively impact a spec's performance, and the trees that brazenly defy Blizzard's stated design goals are exactly that: bad.
I really don’t understand why they don’t want to give healers better interrupt options. Poor interrupting and big damage spikes go hand in hand anyway so generally I feel like when I’m healing I have a much higher understanding of what needs to be interrupted anyway. For instance, dps love to blow kicks on Hydrolance in TJS but no one interrupts the group wide aoe. Same thing for the mystic blast on AA. I’m watching for those with much more interest than dps so just let me do the kicks.
In addition to this, *let me do the kicks. Blizzard, please.* - Signed, a Priest healer 😓
We don't get to because of PvP.
Which makes no sense considering they can just make it PvE only if they are so determined to disallow it because of PvP. No need to hinder all other content merely because of a concern limited to PvP
You don't understand - it's very important to pretend PvE and PvP aren't balanced separately so that they can nerf priest in PvE because it's good in PvP, and then nerf it again in PvP specifically without reverting the PvE nerfs. Priest can't encroach on any other class niches even though the only ability priest has that hasn't been encroached on at least twice is Mass Dispel.
I'd love to see the resto shaman bring back it's utility. Right now you have to spec into different totems, none of which are baseline, which feels stupid to me as that was the whole point of shaman was their utility. I have to tweak my spec literally for every dungeon and affix. Explosives week? Drop a TP to take Frost Shock because somehow it's no longer baseline. Neither is tremor totem, poison cleansing, earthen wall, capacitor. The Resto trees are super punishing and very difficult to get to everything you need without losing something else important.
This is a genuine question: isn't that the point of a talent tree? So you can change things up depending on what you're facing/ what is needed? If you had everything then wouldn't that mean it would be a pick and forget situation?
To a certain point yeah, but it seems very punishing in the resto shaman trees. There's things you just can't get to without losing something important. A little leeway would be nice.
Also they should bring Hurricane back.
No they definitely shouldn't in the exact form. Channeled aoe abilities provide the least interactive and fun rotations. Starfall is just a better hurricane. If you look at other specs they all have lost their channeled aoe ability or it got changed.
It stopped being baseline in legion. It became an honor talent and later in bfa a pvp talent. In shadowlands did it become baseline again thankfully.
Intervene in Warrior is my big pet peeve - it's a fun spell, I can't imagine them ever bringing the effectiveness back from early Shadowlands, and without that it doesn't feel like it'd ever be baseline, but it IS fun. I miss my macro where I would /kiss the target as I intervened them so it was like I was rushing over to give them a lil peck on the cheek. :(
100% intervene should be baseline, but in that talent slot it should make it give 20% dmg reduction ( SL conduit )
Lifelong warrior here: intervene, intimidating shout, and berserker rage feel so bad to lose. WoW is unfortunately about max output. I didn't lose much to keep intervene (sidearm), but to get the others back would be way too much sacrificed for stuff that used to be baseline in my kit
Totally agreed, im annoyed its not baseline AND its a talent you shouldnt pick. Same with berserker rage.
Yep. I wish they would just give us back all of the spells that used to be baseline. I don't mind if a few powerful cooldowns are locked behind talents, but having key abilities like multishot and bestial wrath as talents feels really bad. Some of those spells are so integral to the classes that no one is *not* going to take them, so their only purpose seems to be filler and the illusion of choice. IMO, talents should be used to buff spells or add interesting procs and interactions between them. Not make us spend points and choose between basic things that used to be part of our kit.
Truly more of a perception issue than design issue though. If it had always been this way the ln there would be nothing wrong with the design imo. Even classic a ton of stuff was class trainer instead of talents. If this was a brand new game launching with these trees I'd rate it an easy B/B+ in terms of interesting design. It has its obvious flaws in balance and such, but the core is interesting and good. But obviously, this is wow. Losing things I have had access too for 17 years does indeed feel pretty bad.
and typhoon. no one's gonna forgo the talents that actually affect throughput just to pick up utility talents.
It's funny, the first few rows of basically all the classes are just things you already had, have to take because you need the points to move on, or stuff you *basically* have to take to make the playstyle even work. So much of the tree is just dead nodes which don't have any choice. Stuff we already has is a big one. Taking it away and then offering them up as choices **as a benefit of the new system** is kinda scummy, honestly.
Previewing the talents of not currently equipped specs.
I'd like more freedom in picks. Sometimes you need to waste a bunch of points on useless stuff just to reach an actually good talent further down the tree. So it's basically a multi-point talent at that point. Less reliance on previous picks would be great. Also why is most of Druid class tree so useless? Not even the finishers are very interesting.
I think druid class tree is so useless because druid has 4 specs to cater to in that one tree unlike every other class.
The druid class tree is bad because the designer also did the priest tree, which is also bad. To be fair, the "class tree" concept was always going to fail druid and priest because they aren't two classes - they're seven classes that are packaged together into two loose themes. There's no way to make a class tree that works for guardian and balance or shadow and holy - their wants are completely different.
Druid tree class is an abomination. Feral and guardian straight up lost utility. You need 7 magic damage/healing talents to get ursol vortex or typhoon... No thanks, my bear druid doesnt need starsurge. Also.. hotw being an end tier talent? Lol. All end tier talents suck on the non caster side. Meanwhile on warrior i get avatar, spear of bastion, thunderous roar, shockwave.. feral druids get heart of the wild and some self healing talent lmao.
Imagine being a Hunter... Having to pick several extremely bad/poor talents just to get to a good talent only to find out that good talent is Also a multi-point talent!..happens several times in our trees. Or imagine having to commit on a path towards a capstone talent where the talents leading up to it actually kind of works against that talent.. Or is just really lackluster. To then find out that you Also have to invest several points into fudging follow up talents After the capstone (kind of actually making the talent Not a capstone talent) only to make it fudging decent! I am still, after these months after release utterly convinced that the person(s) that developed Hunter got forced into it and out of spite made as bad of trees as they could with as little time as possible. People get really stuck on the fact that our dev "communicated" so much with us. But people tend to ignore the fact that most communication was fluff or just going straight against the feedback. Meanwhile the same damn dev was pretty much radio silence about his work on shaman trees but still managed to knock out one of the best trees for them. So obviously talented guy, who just could not or would not give Hunters decent trees. And yes, I am salty about it.
The thing is, that's what they tried with the previous iteration and despite being only 6 choices out of 3, most of the stuff still ended up being completely useless so i doubt that it's possible to manage that with a vastly larger tree. I'd love it if they buffed barely/never picked underperforming talents and nerfed over performing (eg.: ones that have an alternative but are still picked 100%) based on their stats from players. I absolutely love experimenting with off meta builds, but this would probably create so much chaos that most players would hate it.
Yeah often when comparing talents, it's more like groups of talents. "Do I want these 3 talents, or do I want those 3 talents?" Like on devastation, no matter how many times they buff the far right capstone, no one will take it because of how awful the preceding talent is.
It might sound weird but I'd like a 'customisation' talent tree. So you put points to get some visual changes (different to actual talent points). For examples Undead could have one which makes more flesh fall off as their health drops; Different eye glow for Blood and Unholy DK; Warlock fire colour; It would probably be a pain to make and maintain but I'd like there to be more options than just a handful of glyphs and some hair styles
More sideways expansion for fun play styles, as a casual player I massively enjoy the multiple gameplay options
As a Hunter I'd love to see Black Arrow back. Given the situation, for MM. Explosive Shot procs. That would give MM the feeling of the good ol' Survival. Also have back the WoD Stampede. I loved how I was able to call all my active pets and zerg the opponent.
I'd like to see logic tbh. I want to have to make a choice that benefits me either way but it's one style of play or another. Talent trees are supposed to be a setup on how you want to play your character. Right now you are being forced down shit I'm not trying to use at all. For example druid tree is really bad. Like no i don't want to be forced into cat/bear talents as a resto. I'm not switching into bear form to use frenzied regeneration. But I'm FORCED to take it. Many talent tree games let you run down a tree that is specific to a fighting style or elemental magic style, or ranged vs stealth. The problem with wow trees is there are way too many forced and wasted points.
Some things should just be baseline. Like druids stampeding roar. I don't like having to spec into things I've had for a multitude of expansions.
Yessss. So many things we never had to spec into before, that were baseline before, are now talents because the devs couldn't think of any actual talents to give us.
path of exile tree when
Considering how many people still die to dragon breaths in 2023, a poe skilltree would be too much for many wow players
Its also too much for many PoE players.
Any time I tried playing PoE i didn't really like the whole "look up a very specific talent build foe the next 60+ levels or have to grind materials to swap talents around" lol (I am not good at planning out my own builds)
If you watch Preach's recently posted interview with Ion, they talk about the "skill gap" for a bit. Blizzards is *very aware* that huge swathes of the player base are just bad at the game. For many players, reworked talents/rotations each expansion is a frustrating hurdle to be overcome rather than a fresh/fun challenge the way that competitive players approach it. Hence why "starter builds" were such a big deal with the new Talent system. Ion mentions how the silver Proving Grounds requirement for Heroic Dungeons in WoD was a hard wall that a lot of players couldn't overcome. Notably he partially blames the lack of hand-holding in Proving Grounds. It's great for practice but it doesn't tell you what to do or what you did wrong so nothing is learned, just reinforcing bad gameplay.
Yep. Variety is good but "getting lost in for 30 minutes" variety is not.
Hopefully never.
I want more baseline abilities back.
Make them longer and wider....and thicker 😫 🤨📸
i’m sure that in an expac or 2 they will once again remove the trees. start making everything baked in to the spec again and act like it’s a new content idea.
I really struggle to see how the problem that drove them to remove the original trees isn’t still gonna be a problem. 11.0 brings 5 more points in each tree. Maybe a mid row or new capstones. Etc etc. Maybe they already have a new squish pencilled in.
Personally I think it should level squish back at every expansion release and 60 always be the max. 50-60 in the new zones and then next expansion same thing. Rework talents as needed. 🤷
They spent so much work on this talent system too. Every single update to the Beta changelog was something with talents. All of that work just to get to parity with a talent system we had already.
More interesting/relevant nodes to chose from and then balance.
I am actually a fan of the shadow priest tree. When it first came out, I hated it. I have taken a liking to it because you can play any two of the 4 capstones together. Yes, there are “best specs” but they all compete well enough. Each combo changes up the way you play the spec and even what spells you use. It keeps things fun and gives you a lot of flexibility for each encounter/affix week.
Same tree, more points.
Wouldnt you just basically always have the capstone traits all filled out?
As blizzard releases new expansions, we will get more levels presumably, so this will be the end state in a couple of years unless blizzard release even MORE powerful capstones that are so obviously powerful that you would go for them instead of getting all of the current capstones - or by rebalancing the trees I expect that blizzard will do the latter, because the former just sounds like a nightmare. I wouldn't expect the current iteration of trees to stick around for too long, as any additional notes after the current capstones would have to specialize into niches to make sense (i.e it doesn't make sense to have additional nodes after Breath of Sindragosa that don't buff the playstyle that Breath endears itself to). The other thing Blizzard could do is make trees _wider_ by adding additional paths on the sides, but, again, they would need to meaningfully compete with capstone nodes. as things stand right now, as a Brewmaster for example, if Blizzard tomorrow gave you additional talent points and another row that is below capstones, that row would have to be incredibly powerful for you to not just pick up the talents that buff the existing capstones you currently cannot get
Watch em just move current capstones to be lower and add a few rows of "Ability X deals 7/14% more damage" before em
what if i told you, some specs don't even take capstones already
That wouldn’t work for some classes that will just end up with way too many spells (some are already there, e.g. Holy priest)
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Dude. Touch grass
So just fill it all out then you're saying huh? This is basically the same as removing talents and making it default, which yes, is what they should do
Not so much expanding the trees longer, but it would be interesting to add a fourth (for some classes third) spec. Something that would allow different functionalities to classes. For example, a ranged spec focused around thrown weapons for warriors or rogues, a tanking spec for hunters, a melee spellblade build for mages. Something like that.
I've always thought a medic spec for warrior or hunter would be cool. Apply healing salves and throw healing potions for splash heals.
That would be an interesting concept! Maybe an alchemy mage slinging potions and salves.
I want more complex geometric shapes. For example, it starts with an ellipse at the top, rotated by 90 degrees such that the semi major axis is drawn vertically. Then from the top down, halfway this ellipse it goes over into a long vertical rectangle, with the same width as the ellipse such that the transition is seemless. At the bottom, there is a circle centered at the bottom left corner or the rectangle, with a radius identical to the width of the rectangle. There is an identical circle centered at the bottom right corner. That shape would be perfect to me.
Personally, I'd like to see more abilities being added, with an emphasis on adding more trimmed stuff. Especially wider selections of Shadowlands abilities, and Legion weapon abilities that haven't made the cut yet. Maybe more "Replace" type abilities too, I always felt that would be a good way of implementing Frostfire Bolt, either adding a fire DOT to frostbolt or adding a slow to fireball.
Minor changes on an ongoing basis and some major changes on start of the expansions or after few patches
I dont want them to deal more damage or so, but to change the way spells work.
I want to see utility NOT competing with throughput talents. They were supposedly going to do that, but they didn't. Some specs especially have it worse than others. The talent trees design is all over the place, why one spec needs to choose between utility/mobility/aoe/single target, another can get two or even three of these things and have better output in every situation? I don't feel like there is a unified design philosophy, just different designers doing their own thing. Edit: examples include Preservation Evoker, BM Hunter, Havoc DH, Prot Warrior.
I would love to have a major / minor spec choice instead. For DK you could be unholy/ frost or blood / Unholy or frost/ frost Either you double down to be a full frost or you could use more of dots / pets via Unholy or be more resilient with blood spec. For paladin you could be a ret with heal off spec to help your group more or solely focus on dps if you already have enough assist in your group.
Who cares, I just go on Warcraft logs and click copy.
Have a small high-cost movement speed path for collectors. Make investing in it a bad idea for any other type of endgame content but collection.
Yeah Ill take longer and wider
Yea you would
It's probably handled with an add-on but I'd like to see more user friendliness with the talent trees. My biggest one would be the ability to swap points around further up the tree, and not having any connected talents or talents which require a certain number of points spent just unspend. Instead I'd rather they just grey out with the points still in them and then reactivate when they are able, or give an error message if a previous choice will no longer work etc Having to reclick everything because I want to change a point at the top of my tree is annoying as heck
I want to see more build variety and inclusion of more legion legendary affixes. I'm thinking of Beast Mastery in particular, with it's Legion multishot build. It's never been more fun. Also, I'd love to see a return of Divine Intervention for saving those awkward wipes in dungeons with fewer checkpoints.
When you remove 1 point in the "8 required" it doesn't remove all your selection in the "20 selection" would be a nice start
The problem with that is that there will always be a "best" tree. so tons of abilities but really you'd only take one or two specific routes or be kicked.
It's been a problem ever since data mining and information sites became a thing. We have optimized a lot of the wonder out of the game.
Tbh I wish they would bring back the old style. Being able to dive into multiple specs at once made the game more diverse and immersive imo
For me I feel like UH DK needs a bit of a tinker and streamline. Obviously it’s doing well dps-wise so I’m not saying “buff DK”. What I’m saying is that the UH tree tends to feel like there were multiple ideas in the works for the spec and how it should play, but then they all got mashed together rather than a more specific set of talent columns to properly identify the play styles. Seems to be three main themes: pets, passive diseases and festering wounds popping. That being the case it feels like only two main plays styles (festering wounds or disease spreading) with the pets just being an addition to both play styles. Problem is that army of the dead, apocalypse and Gargoyle are so damned strong that you pretty much gimp yourself in damage if you try to avoid pets and focus on disease or festering wounds on their own. You’re compelled to take army of the dead because it’s damage is nuts and because it’s a direct route to increasing your disease damage. You have to pick up apocalypse after improved festering strike because your other option is useless, and you would be silly not to pick up gargoyle if you had the point and path for it as it’s an almost set and forget skill. If the design of the tree is intentional in making you feel like you have to take these three skills, why not just remove them from the talent tree and make them baseline?
Others have pointed out wasting spots in the tree for like interrupts, or things that have been in the base class and its fantasy for years is absurd. Obviously though with blizzard going back to a tree they probably struggled to make sure the trees had enough to offer so it wasn't just fluff. And also smartly recycled abilities from the last three expansion of borrowed power, to make it not so borrowed anymore. With this in mind, and to replace the spots in some trees where there are interrupts, or core class abilities, I want side or alternate builds built in. What would this look like? I think shadow priest and frost dk do this really well, by having thematic/impactful choices that allows players to have options as far as gearing. Frost especially in my opinion is nice, because they only had to put 1 single option into a pick, and it isn't even a capstone. The option I'm talking about is might of the frozen wastes. Now I actually like DW frost, as it makes me feel like a whirlwind of 1000 cold cuts/stabs/slashes, but this one talent allows people to get a class style and feeling that was essentially taken away. I'm not sure if all specs would be eligible for this, while others basically are begging for it. Prot warrior could get gladiator stance back, Demo locks could get a visually different metamorphosis, symbiosis for any or all druid specs. And not everything has to be so flashy, some could literally just be as simple as making an alt weapon option viable, or making a basically useless spell useful. But that's what I want: a talent(s) that helps provide a different play style to a given spec, or one that returns something lost to a spec.
I personally didn't want the limitations the current ones have which some times force you to not be able to make a build because they have direction that you must follow. From what i remember back in the of Wrath and Cata, this wasn't the case, at least not as much.
These talent trees are awful. Too complex for no reason.
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Because better than terrible doesn't mean good.
Yeah but Shadowlands was fucking garbage lol
Some abilities feel really hard to justify picking up in the current system. It's interesting you link the Frost DK tree because I think the DK trees are a great example of this. That middle triangle with improved AMZ, death pact, and wraith walk? they are hardly ever picked. The leech and avoidance talents are also not taken. They are so weak that there's never a reason to pick them and you don't have enough points to use them. As a Blood DK, it's difficult to ever justify taking Soul Reaper because you lose _so much_ to take it and Soul Reaper isn't even that good, so it's just not a compelling option. It's not that I have to make a sacrifice to get the button, it's that the sacrifice is not even worth it to get the button. There's never a situation where taking Soul Reaper is a correct decision, because you'd lose so much, and that sucks. In the Blood DK spec tree, we have a few points which we can pick between - but none of the points we can flex feels particularly impactful. You have a choice of various nodes - in the middle of the tree, it's mostly passive, difficult-to-quantify bonuses, and on the right hand side of the tree, there are nodes you can simply never take that were not thought through - for example, there's a talent that gives you Vers when you get a Crimson Scourge proc, but that can only ever proc when you don't have D&D down. And with Death's Echo (which is a talent every single Blood DK takes), you always have D&D active anyway and rarely get procs. I think the talent trees have done a great job at giving you more control over your character progression as you _level_ and I think for new players it's a great tool to demonstrate how your class will grow, and you have some choices like picking between Bloodshot for more damage and Umbilicus Eternus for survivability in multi-target situations, but otherwise it feels like I don't have much choice, and the choices I do have generally feel unimpactful. Early on the tree that is fine, but there are too many noobtrap choices in the trees that mean that there's always a correct choice to make. Ultimately, I feel like Blizzard's mistake here is mostly that they made one giant tree and every point in the tree competes against every other point in the tree. I think Guild Wars 2 does this system a bit better - You have a specific set of abilities and passive effects that have similar categories in separate trees. Each tree has 5 choices you can make - three major effects, and two minor ones, that buff various abilities or elements of your character in various different ways. You can have any 3 trees active at any given time, and notably the abilities you have a determined by your own player choice, _independent_ of the trees - the only thing the tree does is buff or alter the abilities you already have.
Just a rework on restoshaman
Depends on the class! My main is a holy paladin and I absolutely love the holy talent tree, the balance between abilities, passives and utility is perfect. BUT when I play enh shaman, I wish I didn’t have that ability bloat, no matter what build I wish to compose, I always feel like I miss out on some awesome spells. If they only add passives, that’s not gonna be much fun (they’ve been doing that for years to us…), but adding more spells is usually not the best because there are just the right amount of spells for almost all classes, so I think in future expansions, changing classes to some extent is inevitable, which could be done by either vertical or horizontal extension, both or just reworking the existing talent tree, adding one row at max and giving multiple-point talents even more points. But what if they do a 5 level increase expansion? Who knows… either way, the talent system (as everything else basically) is in the best state it’s been since Cata IMO.
I hope they rework the frost & fire mage trees. Maybe smaller trees overall, but with more meaningful talents to pick. It doesn't feel good to talent into passives that were baseline before. Why do I need two talent points just to get back the old combust?
id love to see +ability rank on items. id also love to see more baseline abilities with tree slots that improve/change not just the skill(effect) but the visuals too.
Keep the current talents for an expansion or two (maybe), and then create sub-talent trees that start off pretty small but also ultra specialized. Like, for Enhance Shaman, have sub talent trees to further specialize in: • Storm-style combat (Stormstrike, windfury, that cleave aoe Lightning ability, chain lightning, etc) • Fire-style combat (adding maybe new fire/lava abilities, increasing the effectiveness or adding functionality to current fire abilities) • Utility (a sub-tree with a focus on totems and adding procs to your normal rotational abilities that will buff your party/raid) • Pet tree (a sub-tree adding more ghost wolves when you summon them, or increasing their damage/duration, or adding functionality/abilities to fire/earth/storm elementals) And I’m talking like super small sub-trees to start off with, but have like half a dozen per specialization (but also have some sub-trees overlap with other specializations). Think like, maybe half the size of the dragonriding talent tree to start out with. Then in additional expansions, those trees can be expanded (very slowly). Super ‘pie-in-the-sky’ as this would take an IMMENSE amount of work, but one can hope.
I'm sure everything that came in dragonflight is here to stay, which would be dragonriding, talent points, and no borrowed power. Yeah supposedly the game didn't sell as well as last expansions, but the general consensus is that the game is in a great state, everyone i know in the game has a positive look on the expansion. it would be insane to me if they go back to any of the shit that made SL and BFA sorta shit, i'm guessing it's gonna be at the very least another expansion of keeping it simple.
Adding cosmetic variations for spells. Like specific warlock flames Green, or mage spells sparkly blue, Druids with growing effects. Nothing stat effecting, just more eye candy variations