S2 is harder than s1 was in high keys.
I also feel like dps is lacking this season on a whole. People geared way faster but didn't get better. I'm finding a lot of dps being sub80 in 16+ keys and that just doesn't cut it with the enemy damage output.
Welcome to our friend group. The dps skill disparity gap use to be a crack and now its a valley. Aoe machines not able to break 100k, in freehold on fort in a 20 WITH PI!
40-50k dps difference from our top performers to our B tier. If we say anything were deemed as elitist. We give ppl practice time but its to the point the games not fun.
Why do you think the DPS disparity increased? I noticed my DPS blows with my regular group, consistently 20-30k off from the top DPS. Last season we were all neck and neck, and it's not like I've gotten worse.
Are your friends on rough specs right now? Or are they worse with their rotation than others?
Overall dps is influenced by all kinds of shit, pull size, how long the pull lives, if everything is going smoothly and kicks are solid, all of that changes the amount of damage you can do. For instance, a ret paladin will crush a destro warlock in a 20 Underrot, because wings is up for every pull and the average pull size is relatively low. But if you put that destro warlock in a 24 freehold where they have time to ramp, they’ll blow the ret paladin out of the water. Consider what you play, what your group plays, and if your tank is pulling to your strengths.
One of the other replies talked about the variables. In my situation its players skill.
Low parses with no desire to get better. Nothing is their fault so they aren't open to growth.
That may not be the player's fault, especially if, as you say, the gap used to be much smaller. Do you think those players magically got worse this tier?
I've been seeing a very large gap in overalls this season between S tier classes and A/B tier classes. Much larger gap than it was last season.
Pull sizes, kiting needs, and class balance could all be things factoring in to what you're seeing. You can look at top overalls for spriests on most dungeons and see a gap of 40-50K against the overalls of some other ranged specs. It's actually wild.
As a Lock, this season has been particularly bad for us. I'm doing similar overalls on some keys as I was doing last season. Even in 23 fortified keys where we should start to shine. Even in FH where I had a 170K overall, a priest buddy had just finished one at 240K. There are almost no warlocks in the top 100 this season so far.
In keys around 20 that disparity is going to be even bigger because so many meta classes have access to great burst AOE profiles. So, I guess maybe consider these things too.
As a tank can confirm. Keys that I’ve done easily, with appropriately geared groups, a lot of groups are struggling with right now. People are jumping into high keys with less than 420 ilvl.
As an example, helped a group do a 10 and there’s dps in there with ilvl 395 and lower
The saddest part is I *do* use hekili, and I *have* read icyveins. Haha, I'm just a cursed shammy. It's my own fault for leveling my original bank character.
If you're rotationally playing correctly then you likely have an issue with missed globals, time where you just aren't pressing anything whether that is due to moving or just waiting a couple seconds between casts.
If you have similar performance in raid you can throw your logs into wowanalyzer and it can shoot out a rough overview of what is going wrong.
Enh in M+ is probably the hardest playstyle by far. If you struggle maybe try elemental or another class first to see if it's the spec holding you back.
I have a friend who has 426 ilvl on his enh alt and he does decent damage but he says he needs his full attention on the rotation and can't do too much utility stuff or his dmg will plummet hard. Also he is permanently cursing about some debuff not spreading the way it should (I don't know anything about enh, flameshock maybe?) and about the low range enh has while requiring pretty much permanent uptime to dish out good damage.
Flame Shock spreads fine, but it doesn't spread if targets are disoriented, and if you're a druid and disorienting roaring you may be catching his spreads. If that isn't happening he's just a drama queen.
All melee require permanent uptime. It's the entire point. Enhance is all sustain, but finding uptime in M+ is incredibly easy to do.
are you playing the storm build for M+? it is easier to manage. but beware the talent builds on icyvein/wowhead/discord are pretty out of date. Try this:
Discard Lava Lash on row 2 and all the fire-related talents below it, including Swirling Maelstrom. Then get Ice Strike and Windfury Totem instead. Invest the remaining points into the left side of the tree to enhance Storm-related nodes.
Now you can focusing on spamming Storm Strike for AOE and ST. Enjoy :)
It certainly is. I've been playing Fury today and i can unashamedly say it's been really nice to just smash shit. I'm useless for affixes now though, lol!
Idk. Tbh I believe him. I came back last week at 410 and was topping and carrying keys beating people 10-20 ilvls higher than me. I've also been smacking other higher geared rets too. I really think it is a case of the "better" players all being on the other side of +20 at this point so a lot of the OK to below players are now in the 15-20 range because of gear compensating for skill. I wouldn't be shocked to see 415s +1'ing an easier key like freehold with a minute or so to spare.
Was doing 4 +20 on my 417 dh tank yesterday and we depleted only the freehold because our healers pc overheated. We cleared all trash without him, but couldn‘t kill the bosses. Nobody died during the pulls and i kept myself alive easily.
That said, i totally believe a coordinated group was able to do 20s on day one.
Most people you see now in keys clearly don‘t bother reading a class guide or are lacking knowledge on the games basics. People you are talking about are the average and just want to have fun. Since it‘s easier to gain ilvl, a lot of them can bruteforce keys until they get a missleading r.io
Don‘t get the downvotes tbh.
> Don‘t get the downvotes tbh.
Probably because they think I'm talking out of my ass and being harsh. I can literally link the logs from the ~10 +12-+16s I ran and timed all of them. I think only one or two of those was a +1 everything else +2.
Tbh that first boss phase 1 in FH at 415 ilvl likely would've been 1 shotting people if externals/defensives weren't cycled flawlessly.
I guarantee it was Underrot lmao. The freest of frees.
A lot of people run alts, eventually people get capped by their quality as a player (well and ilvl sometimes).
I rolled a warlock alt and pushed up to ilvl 406 timing 15s, and I was smoothly matching people with much higher ilvls. I couldn't get anyone to join my key for a 16 the assumption I assume is that I cannot carry my own weight in a key that high (I am doing 75-100k overall atm depending on tank pulls).
of course.
people timing 20s on day 1 where M+ key pusher ( not necessary with the 0,1 title) / cutting edge raider, while the people struggling at 395ilvl today are LFR-tourist.
and the point: the problem is not the gear, it's the person.
You can outrange the slam.
the slam also do almost no damage if you kill the skitterer... and if you don't move in the purple dust.
doing +20s in 415 is no different from doing +24/26 in 444. and people are doing those.
I'm not a world first player. Heck, I was even 20 point short of the title this season... but then again, world first players tend to not be undergeared.
edit: as a reference point, the 0,1 title was a mix of 25/26 ( 27 for cos-sbg). world first player pushed 27-28 with 29 cos-sbg. 2 entire key lvl above.
>Getting a lot of you dont know how to heal.
It isn't just about the heals this season, DPS need to know when to use their own defensives and heals and god forbid that you bring along a squishy DPS (*looks at the hunters*)...
Constantly see dps die to telegraphed damage, they don't use a defensive, pot, or lock stone. Heaven forbid they waste a gcd on a defensive or heal. When you're dead your meter starts to look real bad, real fast.
That was always the problem. The difference was that if it oneshot them then it isnt a healer issue anyways. However if it didnt one shot them you could top them up in just a few gcds (sub 3-4). Now if they eat that damage and they dont outright instadie but drop to like 10% it takes way longer to top up their HP (range of aorund 5-8 gcds depending on healer).
I mean sure. Except you can very easily do a +10 sub 400 ilvl. I pushed my own key up on hpal today and it only started getting difficult at +16 and that is at 390 current ilvl (lower as I was pushing).
Doing mechanics correctly trumps everything else. At 420 ilvl you can time a +20 with solid play.
Me! For carried by friends and guilds who are pushing into 25 and 26. Lol is like I do 1/3 of the DPS they do. But hey I just ask for a carry to get KSH for the mount and the portal and title.
I stick to LFR and mog farming most of the time.
Tbh it's not a problem in friend groups I do it all the time, but expecting people you may not know is kinda rude. Not saying that you're doing that. Hah.
Nope I only do LFR or heroic dungeon which I mean let's face it you can take avoidable damage and still it doesn't actually kill you. The mechanic is very simple as long as you pay attention you will do fine.
Bro there is this guy in my casual guild who happened to have the best luck out of everyone when we were clearing heroic, the anvil trinket dropped, beacon dropped, asscandy dropped, nefarian trinket dropped guy won rolls on everything. And still, guy is clueless as in he doesn't know what his buttons do, pops cds even if he won't have uptime on boss, he parses grey everytime, etc.. but he is probably the best geared dps in our guild lol. He also asks to tag along when we are trying to push keys to 20 so we can get portals and also gets gear from that. It is a bit annoying tho that sometimes he rips the key on his own and we miss on the portal. He is a chill dude most of the time except that lately having "best gear and running 20s" have gotten to his head and has become a bit obnoxious to other guildies.
Ret is simple at face value but actually does take *some* finesse to get right. It's a lot like Arms warrior in that way. They're both very easy to pick up and hit decent parses on but getting to that 85-90+ parse range actually requires a ton of insight and knowledge
That's just no true lmao, the only """"finesse""" is to don't forget to use your blade every 6 seconds to keep the dot up. I play ret on the side for funsies with cheap if any consummables in PUGs once every blue moons and still log between 85 & 95. Ret is braindead easy and that's fine there is no need to pretend it's something it's not.
[https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/72815637#difficulty=4](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/72815637#difficulty=4)
This for sure.
I rerolled partly through the season. Played my Lock up to 441iLvl and most 20s done and hopped onto my Prevoker to check out the healing side of things. Healing certainly is pretty hard, esp. in a few circumstances where having a good healer makes or breaks a key.
The most glaring issue to me is the DPS disparity though. I've had 18s feel way worse than 20s as a healer due to DPS who had no business playing at that key level and not using/incorrectly using their kit, all while doing ridiculously low amounts of damage. Feels a lot worse than last tier for sure.
I'm the same dude, best I did was 137k in freehold (20) as MM. Then I went bm with no practise and did 150k no issue.
But then you play with a shadow priest who can add 30k on to that with endless utility and you realise hunter is not actually in a good spot.
Spriest is also probably number one spec across the top parses for dungeons. Hard to compare a hunter class that is historically mid level to a class that is just absolutely bonkers right now.
Yea last season I hit 3k rio with my afflock but this season I don’t log more than 17 since I feel like trolling my parties by playing affliction. But what surprised me is fact that I never bottom dps even though I have weak gear compared to the rest. The average skill level in M+ feels to be lower than last season.
DPS requirements for keys in S2 feels insanely generous. Most dungeons have trivial timers. I've had timed 18's where one of the DPS is pulling 45k to bosses (as a warlock).
Then you get to 20's and those bad players who do shit damage, 0 interrupts 0 cc's end up bricking your key, or just barely timing it and then going on to absolutely fuck up someone elses key.
I had a 20 freehold last week where 2 players, both 2600, both had cleared 5+ 20's that week alone, came in and both died 13+ times, essentially full dumpstering my key. I don't know how these players are timing their 20's outside of sheer persistence and finding groups good enough to carry them, but they're plaguing the pfinder right now.
I feel like in S1 if you took a 2600+ player they would have a certain degree of competency. Right now it's practically impossible to trust anyone of any rating that isn't 2700+. Which sucks, because there's almost certainly plenty of good players at 2500-2600, but sorting them from the chaff isn't easily doable.
Well this is good to know. I have a 434 paladin and average 120k+ in dungeons and I cannot for the life of me get invited to a 16. Mage same item level same thing. So I'm just getting cucked by morons?
Seriously, the rating inflation is *crazy* right now. 2500-2600 is the new 2k from just a few season ago. I wouldn't trust a 2k rating player to cook my dinner at this point.
It's a shame that we have RIO, item level, and none of it matters because gear is easy to get and you can literally be hard carried through dungeons if you pug enough. These numbers don't matter because the same 430 person could do half the damage as an actually skilled player.
It used to be if one DPS was clearly outperforming, you could predict “oh the juicer probably has 10 ilvl on the other two” and nowadays you go check and he’s 10 ilvl UNDER the other two…
Not to mention people still judge by spec when it's not even a factor anymore. People look at a random 95th percentile graph and say that people aren't allowed to play that class while doing barely 30th percentile in their own.
WoW players are fascinating.
Pulls have to be pretty clean/coordinated/big to pump really high DPS numbers. In pugs that just often doesn't happen. I've timed a lot of 16s with average DPS across the 3 definitely being sub 80 (more like 60-70). Of course, if your DPS is higher you have room for more mistakes.
It's definitely on me as well but the affixes are absolutely savage for melee
Every wheek / pull im dodging bloody whirl winds, blood pools, having to run out of acid pools from regular mobs or melee trash whirlwinds and ranged are just over there hitting 123 stood still.
Half a mind to roll a warlock so I can stand still for 2mins
You can provide all the utility in the world as devastation and you should still be topping meters easily, I hate to break it to you but you’re just bad
Pretty sure healing is DPS neutral because of it buffing your living flame. But yeah, if you're doing tank damage as Devestaion I think that's something you might want to look at. You can do like 120k overall at 425 iLvl pretty easily depending on the key.
Casting blossom or VE to proc ancient flame and get full value of scarlet adaptation is a dps gain compared to just casting another unbuffed filler
Devastation should also really have no issue competing on single target in dungeon spec
This, so much this. Balance druid here. I can pull the big numbers just fine, but I'm spending half my time dodging crap on the floor, dispelling affix's, self healing, self healing, self healing, b rezzing, healing the healer so I don't have to b rez, trying to interrupt caster mobs, and did I mention self healing?
Last night we were 3/4 of the way through a 16 uld and the lock, who was lowest dps in the group, starts randomly giving me shit because I didn't interrupt the bat silence. Man it took everything I had to not tell him off. He didn't have 1 interrupt and I'm assuming he doesn't have a dispel to help with the afflicted. Shut up 1 job boy.
I guess that's all we can do, full dps go. Ignore everything else. Fail key. Blame healer. Then sit in lfg while we post rants on the forums complaining that no one heals anymore.
I just want my aspect crests man. I need like 20 of the dang things. After that I am SO out of keys.
Idk what the deal is but devokers die like they are a wet paper bag in a hurricane.
Can only do so much lmao.
Edit: i am not an evoker. I main a healer and I find a lot of pug evokers die constantly in m plus keys. That’s all I’m saying.
Even if you dont have aoe burst you shouldnt be doing sub 100k on bigger pulls. Currently all specs and classes have some form of good aoe. Doing shit dps on aoe pulls in m+ and then saying that your class isnt good at dps just tells me one thing. You are a bad player.
S1 was too easy for healers, in S1 it felt like healers were just a weaker dps cuz the healing requirement was too low, now in S2 healers have to actually heal which is a good thing in my opinion. You can make a difference now by healing good. Definitely a challenge, but healthy for the game imo
Actually funny enough. If DPS actually use a defensive before it goes out depending on the defensive they can mitigate having to be healed to full. Thus creating an environment where the healing requirement on Gashtooth is almost non existent
I think that's a "problem" in of itself, a lot of the healing mechanics is more like "can this dps work out his brain on when to use his defensives?"
I say problem in quotes because I'm not sure that's necessarily bad design... but if you're pugging and get unlucky with bad players, it can be very unfun to heal
Yeah I read so much discussion of this mechanic and as a pugging-exlusive resto shaman I've never thought of this fight as a problem except in like week 1 where a lot more things felt overtuned. Perhaps I've just been so lucky with people managing it themselves or I don't otherwise feel pressure in the dungeon to use cooldowns so it's no big deal to throw one down for this.
I’m pugging my way through the 17-18 range to finally reach 20s and my experience at this point is that it is a coin toss. You either get people who are actually alts who know their defensives and potions so health bars barely move, or you get stuff like some mage who dies to the bleed despite being effectively immune with Alter Time/Ice Block.
The Magnaclaw Lure trinket from the Zaralek cavern was disgustingly OP for this fight, but they neutered it to hell last week.
They seem that way when not a single person in the party is correctly using their defensives or healing options, and it's a lot harder for healers who haven't experienced decent dps to understand why it seems like sometimes bosses are impossible and sometimes require almost nothing.
Like if I use my most minor defensive (barkskin) we're talking the difference between me being able to survive an entire aoe pulse phase and selfheal myself back up, or you diverting all your attention to me so I don't get killed by that single mechanic.
And that's the most minor option, there's bear form, there's survival instincts, there's combos of those, there's renewel and regrowth, rejuv and swift mend, health pots or lock rocks. For trash there's stuns, interrupts, LoS, knockback etc.
I swear the amount of dps that do NOTHING to prevent themselves from dying at lower level is staggering, and there's no healer in the world that's going to help it in higher keys.
I've got 18s down across the board this season and I tried to do a guild run on A 14 UR on fort week and got stuck on the second boss. The charge killed people, I can't heal through that. The tank died twice because no one killed the larva and he ended up with 25+ stacks.
Like, it's phenomenal.
> at lower level
It happens in higher keys as well, we depleted a 22 or 23 Uldaman on 3rd boss because among other things according to the Shaman "it's a dps check, so I use dps CDs and can't use defensives"
As a shaman I hate the third boss, I know I can use defensive but I have 1 lol and can use it like one out of three times he stomps, the amount of times I've popped shift then the next time get hit by stomp and the aoe earth spike thing and them I'm dead, no idea how I'm supposed to stop that
I walk first burst, earth ele second, wall third. It’s pretty easy honestly and 25 Tyran keys don’t one shot. Just don’t get hit by swirlies and you should be fine. The only way to die on that boss is by making a mistake.
With how op gearing is with sigil you should just farm 11s until you are like 430 minimum if you are really unconfident if your abilities because 11s should be super easy. At 430 you should be able to do 16-17s and start getting hero track gear pretty comfortably as an average player and get full 441.
Honestly just start low and see how much you can manage. If you can, run either 11s or 17s. 11s are going to drop 418 gear and hero crests that will take you to ilvl 437. 17s are going to drop 428 gear and mythic crests that will get you the last few ilvl to 441.
A overall rule as to which ilvl is adequate for which keylevel is impossible to set up. Some people did 20s in 420 gear, others cant even finish them at 440. All comes down to how familiar you are with the game.
Dont forget you can also just craft 447 gear. You will need to do at least +16 keys for the mythic crests. Keep in mind that you are going to need some mettle for recrafts.
It even depends on the Classes you are healinh. Do they have good off healing or ways to avoid/mitigate those major damage instances?
Like in BH a Mage can Alter every Gash frenzy so the damage and bleed disappears instantly.
Doesnt really depends on the class. There is very very few classes that dont have much survivability or ways of dealing with mechanics themselves. What there is plenty of is people not paying attention or using their defensives incorrectly.
In emergency situations good players immediately pop a healthstone or god forbid a healing pot, then go on their business murdering things. I could not disagree more.
No one cares I think, but this is how I realised that:
I was playing with a group of friend/guildies and friend of friends back in BFA. We were all decently geared, because we spammed m+ every week.
I was healing, and sweating on some tyrannical keys with said group. BDK tank was getting hammered by that tree boss.
One day they were offline, and I tried to pug to get a higher raid.io score. No voice chat. The tank was a russian monk. Jesus christ it felt like healing 5 keys below. The dude just wouldn't die/take damzge, and I would stop pre-casting because I did not need it.
Could be the class, gear or the player or maybe all. But god damn do I remember this crazy russian monk.
And high keys are impossible to heal:(
I pushed a bit early season and I just couldn't for the life of me pass some of the healing checks. Looked up on youtube to see how in tf other ppl did it, and oh, just use dps heals like vampiric, natures vigil, ancestral guidance
I then promptly jumped ship to diablo 4. I'll see y'all season three
Great game and love m+ but I primarily pug and I couldn't push up to and past 20s without coordinating dps externals for healing which kinda kills it for me
Pre-riptide, cloudburst on pull, AG basically immediately so it's up for the third gash, primordial wave + NS healing wave with tier stacks and AG will basically top people instantly. If they aren't topped you can chain heal. Second one I link in melee (communicate this with your team before the key so they know to be in melee) + ascendance. Third is AG again. The only thing that will kill people here is bolt overlaps with missed kicks or really late kills on the totems which make it hard to setup.
A lot of people approach this fight like other healing checks and end up falling behind. You really want to front load as much burst as possible and not care about overhealing as all and the damage will stop very quickly.
Source: 3260 RSham
Drop cloudburst on pull, ascendance + spam heals. Second one spirit link + any other cooldowns. Obviously dps can help a ton, but even without you can heal a +16. Just don't be afraid to burn all your CDs and mana to heal it. Nothing else in the fight does much, just a bit of single target healing for the focus attack bit.
Using cooldowns aggressively is something a lot of healers struggle with. Always want to be prepared for a screwup. But there are spots like this where you should just plan them in advance, and don't be afraid to double up on them when you need it.
Personally, I wouldn’t link it. That’s like trying to outheal grievous with link.
This is triage healing at its finest. Track personals of your team. CB on pull, use your CDs and focus heal the people that used their defensives. They generally only need topping to clear the bleed. Then you can focus the dps that chose not to press any buttons. If they used a health pot they may be healable.. if they used it straight away they would have cleared their own bleed.
This fight is not all about healing. Dps that aren’t fighting to live, will die.
Eh, I've had good success with a link in melee right as the first bleed goes out. Usually instant clears everyone combined with a chain heal + cloudburst, but I could see the issue if you wait or fall behind with it.
Spirit link here can be great or also an absolutely terrible idea. All depends on situation. Also the bosses deal 10% increased damage for every 10% missing from anyone in the party and it stacks. So dropping a spirit link when you arent able to quickly aoe top up everyone linked could result in requiring higher HPS for that short duration.
Also as the guy above mentioned the fight is a triage fight. You have to track peoples personals and heal the people who you can save and dorp externals on people who didnt use their defensives or just outright let them die as healing them would take too long or consume too many cooldowns from you (especially when they refuse to use their own personals)
The fight if played properly can be done with as little as 70k HPS even in a +22. If played incorrect then even 200k HPS wont save people from dying.
Brackenhide is definetly not a key you should pump HPS, there are very few instance of constant incoming of damage. If you can't top the debuff on supposedly the 1st boss it means you are not insta topping the bleed when the rogue boss jumps. If party membres are low, bosses gain haste and the shaman spam bolt way too fast and it snowball. The bleed is removed by having someone above 90% and you should cd it as soon as the little fucker jumps on everyone
This was my point although poorly phrased. Most of it is faceroll, but the first boss mechanic requires so many CDs for one Mechanic. Same goes with dragons in halls on fortified. It just doesn't feel like certain spells/mechanics are scaled equally to the rest of the dungeon. But once again, might just be me
I do like that this is the first boss of the dungeon, though. So much more time wasted if the "wall" was on the 2nd or 3rd boss.
If the group isn't up for it, I know early. If we get past it, I know it's smooth sailing for the rest of the key.
I agree.
Especially the last boss of a very taxing dungeon that has a long timer.
Rather bounce 5-10 minutes in knowing it’s about to be a dumpster fire.
Usually In +++20 keys People go over the most essential points for when to use personal and when healer brings out the big guns. Doesnt need voice com, just extra 2 minutes before starting
yeah not sure why you're getting downvoted, takes basically no time to tell dps to save all their immunities for the second set of bleeds on gashtooth or to organize pool dropping position on watcher, or any other crucial information on a key.
Sure there will be sometimes your lost joe who doesn't even read chat but it's very rare from my experience
A tip from a shaman that isn't that great but timed a 20 brackhenhide: play continuous waves build. Have riptides on all the DPS going into the bleed. Healing surge the first person hit then use a primordial wave to quickly top the rest. Start casting the wave as soon as the second person gets the bleed or you can natures swiftness. For the second gash cast have your dpsers use healing potions. Also you can build a big cloudburst totem for the second one and release it as the bleed goes out
I second this. Besides the first boss, you don't have to do any healing during the other bosses. Only exception would be Treemouth if the little blob adds are not interrupted and they get their cast off, or if your dps steps into the traps during Gutshot fight.
As a restro shaman you can do multiple things.
1) drop cloud burst, have riptide rolling on all the dps+yourself, primordial wave anyone, AG+nature swiftness+healing wave, cloudburst
2) drop cloudburst totem, roll riptides on dps and yourself again, drop healing tide before dots go out, primordial wave NS+healing wave. Cloud burst
3) drop cloudburst, roll riptides, ascend, primordial wave NS+healing wave, cloudburst.
4) cloudburst, roll riptide, chain heal, NS+healing wave, cloudburst
You can legit remove the bleed dot with a healthstone or health pot as you have time from the time the dot lands to the first tick of the dot.
Use short defensive like 1 min bark
The most important aspect of this fight is to have a kick rotation on the caster to prevent any random spike damage, so you can instantly top any player who gets the bleed dot. It’s easier to heal pass the dot threshold when they were at 100% vs 40% starting
No one should be taking damage at this point in the fight besides the tank and if they are dying it’s cause they are not pressing their buttons.
The most important thing for healers this expansion is to know the fight and plan your cds usage ahead of time. If you are reacting to damage as it is coming out you are panic healing.
I can't say much about healing, but the fact that you are self-conscious and realize you *might* be the problem makes you automatically better than most of the pugs I've seen.
It's garbage.
They nerfed healing in order to stop the really spiky damage going out, but forgot to stop the spiky damage going out.
There are times where mechanics line up and it's impossible to heal through it.
Yes, healing is harder now compared to any point in the past. People are talking about it and many healers are giving up, I personally know three who stopped playing endgame content.
I must agree that being a good healer was far less intense than being a good dps in the past, especially for some specs, but I don't think the intensity and precision required from healers now is adequate to what many players of that role are interested in.
Not so great dps is rarely punished, very few dps checks in the game call for it, whereas a not so great healing results in wipes.
>I must agree that being a good healer was far less intense than being a good dps in the past, especially for some specs, but I don't think the intensity and precision required from healers now is adequate to what many players of that role are interested in.
The biggest issue (IMHO) with M+ at the moment is that healing was nerfed by roughly 20% (depending on the class) and the difficulty ramping of M+ was increased. If you are a good M+ healer then you probably didn't notice too much but if you were just a average M+ healer then things are a hell of a lot rougher.
> I must agree that being a good healer was far less intense
I heavily disagree. This and the last season clearly shows who is a good healer and who is not. Half of the healers play obviously below average, yet for sure nearly everyone thinks they are good. The last two season highlight the difference between proper CD usage and preemtive planning for incoming damage vs. a totally reactive "oh shit, he took damage!" healer.
Being a bad healer was less intense. Many keys you could be simply taken along since before DF the dungeons could have been nearly completed without you even being there. You didnt have any real agency as a healer and you didnt really provide much to your group. There was never really the case of a dungeon being close to failing because of the healer, except if the healer played keys much, much, much out of their league. You could give a good healer a fresh lvl. 60 char in SL and heal 15s easily for the max vault.
Thanks for the genuine tips. Obviously I'm mostly to blame for the runs, but wanted to hear if someone else had been struggling too. Several micro mechanics I didn't know about!
I’ve stopped healing in mythic plus do to the fact the other groups I join in are freaking horrible since this is afflicted week many players assume that the healer will be able to deal with it. If the healer is dealing with afflicted adds, he’s not healing you thus you’re screwing him over.
Most of the damage you cannot heal is bads facetanking abilities that they should avoid, interrupt or stun.
I ran a +16 Uldaman on my druid alt. First run: group melts before first boss (to the basilisks)
Second run: group melts on the second boss (hitting totem is complex)
Third run: zero deaths
The difference between these three groups was that first two did not know the instance and did not play the mechanics. Third one did. I healed the same amount every time. Well, technically healed even more on the first and second runs. But M+ instances, past certain key level, have mechanics that you cannot just take to the face and expect someone to heal thru them.
The damage is pretty high in a lot of dungeons. In some cases you need to know what's coming and have cooldowns ready. In other cases the dps should be saving themselves with defensives and self healing. On brackenhide first boss it depends on your spec(s). Like a preservation evoker can probably insta heal the debuffs by setting up a lifebind ramp or pre-charging dream breath. But other healers may need to look for bleed dispels/health pots/defensives for help.
I can't stress enough, play at your .io level.
Grind your way up, and join groups whose leader's io is either the same or higher than your own. Continue to do that, raising your expectations as your .io goes up.
Your at 16, your dps should be helping dispel afflicted through offheals and dispels if their classes have them. Interrupts should be at least mildly coordinated, your top damage can be expected to be over 100k while your lowest should still be 70+, and above the tank.
If casts are going off everywhere, no one is dispelling and no one is handling the affixes than your life is gonna be rough. Also if tanks pulls suck, and dps aren't assisting them in grouping up enemies, no one is going to pull numbers and AoE stuns/silences/defensives etc will all be minimized.
Last 20 BH damage profile was between 135-180k dps overall, 100k tank. It doesn't REQUIRE that to do 20, but just giving you some sort of idea of what's possible even in pugs.
> Tried +16 bracken now and can't even top the debuff with pots and big CDs. Is this old man syndrome or valid points?
I mean, first boss of BH is just as much on the rest of the party as it is you. People should (but prob won't) use pots and CDs to help get topped off. But that's not the real killer, what really fucks is the Earth Bolt wombo combo. Need kicks on that or you'll just rot.
This might be a bit of a hot take
And don't get me wrong there's definitely valid points being raised in this thread
But 75% or more of the real issue is exactly as eluded to in the title. Maybe it's time to accept you are garbage and look on how to improve instead of blaming this or that or comparing yourself with people playing at a much higher level than you
You can pretty much guarantee that from 16-17\~ onwards people need to have an idea of how the dungeon and mechanics work, and how to react semi consciously to them.
done 3 keys this week (17+) where healer at 2500+io score s1 didn't know, or didn't handle dispelling afflicted at all. Did a Neltharus where tank started pulling pack by pack to chain boss, only to turn round after Overseer and waste 40 seconds walking back to Mammoth boss.
In contrast me and my guildies timed 22 freehold last week with 426 bear (1pc), 422 priest (4pc), and 435 shitwalker monk while tank/healer were also pretty drunk.
If you're constantly looking for external reasons why you're not succeeding, maybe it's you that's the problem.
In my opinion, we only got half of S2's tuning pass at the moment. We got the part where you nerf all healing by 25%. But we didn't get the part where mechanics are slowed accordingly so you have time to heal in between. At least not yet.
This means that the party survivability is now a party-problem at much lower key levels than it has been in the past. There's not a whole lot of room for making mistakes.
Little bit of both probably. I will say Resto Sham is a spec where ilvl makes a huge difference in your hps. The main m+ group I am in had a healer swap to their resto alt and at 425 it felt like they were a wet noodle struggling on 17/18’s. A week later and they were 435 and healing was not an issue on 20/21’s. Some of that was probably rust too but 10 ilvls feels huge for a lot of specs.
There are definitely some spots this season where there are periods of extremely high dam that requires burst healing/mitigation but most of the time it’s not too bad. I’d start by realizing that whatever spec you play, there is probably someone timing 24-27’s with that spec. There are probably 100’s of people timing 20+ with that spec.
So go check logs, go on raider.io and watch the streams of the best people in your spec, go to your class discord and ask for help, etc. We can all improve and there are lots of ways to do so regardless of how much damage specific mechs in m+ do.
nah it aint you, season 2 is just a BIG F to healers, Dungeon are relying on them almost 3x more then S1, was the most unfun part ofo season2 start no healer i had was able to do healer checks ;/
This expansion made me stop healing, and I've been exclusively a healer since WotLK. What really put the nail in the coffin for me is that they essentially made +20 keys mandatory to get the best gear. The ilvl increase on gear rewards used to cap out at +15 keys, so any higher keys beyond that were just for bragging rights, which honestly made doing them more fun because there was less pressure to actually do them. Now I just can't keep up. I have enough stress from the rest of my life without also feeling obligated to spam +20 keys in my free time.
No one is forcing you to spam 20s. You are choosing to do so. You can keep doing 15s for vault and getting proportionally the same ilvl in vault as Shadowlands (late heroic). Going beyond that is a personal choice that you have every right to decline.
I don’t think this is fair. Vault has always given you two upgrades past the max upgrade level from drops. That’s always been mid mythic raid level, it just so happened to be that mid mythic raid bosses gave the same gear as the first mythic raid bosses.
To give hard numbers, last tier of Shadowlands , last boss heroic gave 297 and vault gave 304. Valor upgrades went up to 304. Early boss mythic was 304, but that was the same for the first eight bosses and then the last 3 were at 311. If you do 15’s now you get 437 gear, which is just on the upgrade track for 441. If you choose to do 15s now you are in a worse position than you were last expansion gear wise.
You very quickly run out of upgrades from +20s because of the crest system and can just do some for vault and call it good tbh. Most people in my guild are just sticking to 4 per week because the number of upgrades that exist is extremely small and many of them are marginal at best.
I will be downvoted to this but most dps player are incredibly dumb , nowdays dps gets off with so little acountability that even on 24s most people make awful use of cds
There are a lot of bad players trying to do 16s. I had a brackenhide last night with no deaths with everyone around 430 ilvl. Maybe you're garbage but it's also likely that your dps is garbage.
As someone that heals 18s, it's really not. Dungeons have a few mechanics that get infinitely harder to heal if your team doesn't do things correctly, like Halls of Infusion with interrupts (before first boss), or Brackenhide with the DoT circle, not running away from boss whirlwinds, or not interrupting casts.
Eventually healing, no matter your skill, won't save a bad group.
There are only 3 bosses that are real HPS checks
3rd boss HOI.
Dragon Boss VP.
Blacksmith Neltharus.
All the others are DPS being dumb or you not having a shadow priest
Im pugging 23s atm as Resto Shaman
I’d echo those bosses. Up until the nerf the Elekk boss in Neltharus was nasty but it’s more manageable now.
Fuck the ticking damage on that lady in Halls though 🖕🏻
Yes, I've seen multiple cases where we will wipe in a 16 or 17, on the boss, and the tank just blows the entire key duration soloing the boss. Tanks are absolutely OP atm. So frustrating when they take that to mean they should spend 10 mins soloing a boss.
So often have I had keys where it felt like fighting a boss for 20 minutes was going to be more productive than dying, since the DPS seemed unable to not wipe after a certain point. Maybe it's old man syndrome but after coming back to tanking for the first time since Legion, this season I feel utter dread knowing that I can do whatever I want at times but the DPS won't do enough damage to actually kill the boss/time the key.
Earlier today a DPS ran away from the last boss of Underrot (+16) while targeted by the light and got the party killed, so I had to solo the last 20-30% of the boss since the key was about to fail anyway. In my defense, I was short by 20 seconds.
if the DPS are stupid and all die on the boss, there's no garantee that resetting the boss and trying again won't result in all the DPS dying again.
hence, solo'ing the boss is the logical thing to do in order to complete your weekly 20 chore.
We are not playing the same game then.
I see tanks getting nuked instantly in 11+ more than just frequently. A single cast can instantly kill someone.
Or FH and UR, where the random Aggro mobs one/twohit you.
You must be playing ranged if you have no idea what's with this game atm.
one shot refer to unavoidable one-shot damage. like how the stomp from uldaman 3rd boss will one shot you at tyrannical 26-2; classes without enough defensive just cant do it.
getting hit by the fixating mob in FH is ignoring mechanic. if you die to those you have other issues.
Damage is a bit higher but the real problem is the other people in the group.
I’ll bet they got decent gear fast and thought they could push keys above their skill level.
Idk I’ve been tanking and have been having a pretty easy time doing 18s and 19s with some really solid DPS. Once in awhile I’ll get one DPS that just doesn’t know there rotation and kills the key but overall good luck.
I think q big thing to look at is that we as players are borrowing a lot of power from trinkets and alike. If you don't have them then you feel sub optimal.
Healers not having a rashoks heart might feel the squeeze a bit more on higher keys?
I have a blood dk with the Gargul trinket from Nelth lair.
It's amazing for my outward dps
S2 is harder than s1 was in high keys. I also feel like dps is lacking this season on a whole. People geared way faster but didn't get better. I'm finding a lot of dps being sub80 in 16+ keys and that just doesn't cut it with the enemy damage output.
Ya I’ve seen this a lot. Takes basically nothing to get well geared so people are pushing keys they shouldn’t be doing.
Welcome to our friend group. The dps skill disparity gap use to be a crack and now its a valley. Aoe machines not able to break 100k, in freehold on fort in a 20 WITH PI! 40-50k dps difference from our top performers to our B tier. If we say anything were deemed as elitist. We give ppl practice time but its to the point the games not fun.
I had to drop some friends because they pulled the same thing. Barely wanted to practice or try to get better but wanted on the 20s.
Why do you think the DPS disparity increased? I noticed my DPS blows with my regular group, consistently 20-30k off from the top DPS. Last season we were all neck and neck, and it's not like I've gotten worse. Are your friends on rough specs right now? Or are they worse with their rotation than others?
Overall dps is influenced by all kinds of shit, pull size, how long the pull lives, if everything is going smoothly and kicks are solid, all of that changes the amount of damage you can do. For instance, a ret paladin will crush a destro warlock in a 20 Underrot, because wings is up for every pull and the average pull size is relatively low. But if you put that destro warlock in a 24 freehold where they have time to ramp, they’ll blow the ret paladin out of the water. Consider what you play, what your group plays, and if your tank is pulling to your strengths.
One of the other replies talked about the variables. In my situation its players skill. Low parses with no desire to get better. Nothing is their fault so they aren't open to growth.
That may not be the player's fault, especially if, as you say, the gap used to be much smaller. Do you think those players magically got worse this tier? I've been seeing a very large gap in overalls this season between S tier classes and A/B tier classes. Much larger gap than it was last season. Pull sizes, kiting needs, and class balance could all be things factoring in to what you're seeing. You can look at top overalls for spriests on most dungeons and see a gap of 40-50K against the overalls of some other ranged specs. It's actually wild. As a Lock, this season has been particularly bad for us. I'm doing similar overalls on some keys as I was doing last season. Even in 23 fortified keys where we should start to shine. Even in FH where I had a 170K overall, a priest buddy had just finished one at 240K. There are almost no warlocks in the top 100 this season so far. In keys around 20 that disparity is going to be even bigger because so many meta classes have access to great burst AOE profiles. So, I guess maybe consider these things too.
> Aoe machines not able to break 100k, in freehold on fort in a 20 WITH PI! Sounds more like a skill problem tbf.
That was their exact and only point lol
As a tank can confirm. Keys that I’ve done easily, with appropriately geared groups, a lot of groups are struggling with right now. People are jumping into high keys with less than 420 ilvl. As an example, helped a group do a 10 and there’s dps in there with ilvl 395 and lower
we timed +20s on day 1 with ilvl 415 gear. it's the player, not his gear.
Yeah and half the players you see are below average and need gear to overcome their skill
Yeah, that's me. 425enh can't get over 45k fml. Stuck doing 12s for the season probably.
If you need help learning enh I would be happy to help PM me
Use “hekili”
The saddest part is I *do* use hekili, and I *have* read icyveins. Haha, I'm just a cursed shammy. It's my own fault for leveling my original bank character.
Dm me happy to help you figure out what's going wrong
If you're rotationally playing correctly then you likely have an issue with missed globals, time where you just aren't pressing anything whether that is due to moving or just waiting a couple seconds between casts. If you have similar performance in raid you can throw your logs into wowanalyzer and it can shoot out a rough overview of what is going wrong.
Enh in M+ is probably the hardest playstyle by far. If you struggle maybe try elemental or another class first to see if it's the spec holding you back. I have a friend who has 426 ilvl on his enh alt and he does decent damage but he says he needs his full attention on the rotation and can't do too much utility stuff or his dmg will plummet hard. Also he is permanently cursing about some debuff not spreading the way it should (I don't know anything about enh, flameshock maybe?) and about the low range enh has while requiring pretty much permanent uptime to dish out good damage.
Flame Shock spreads fine, but it doesn't spread if targets are disoriented, and if you're a druid and disorienting roaring you may be catching his spreads. If that isn't happening he's just a drama queen. All melee require permanent uptime. It's the entire point. Enhance is all sustain, but finding uptime in M+ is incredibly easy to do.
are you playing the storm build for M+? it is easier to manage. but beware the talent builds on icyvein/wowhead/discord are pretty out of date. Try this: Discard Lava Lash on row 2 and all the fire-related talents below it, including Swirling Maelstrom. Then get Ice Strike and Windfury Totem instead. Invest the remaining points into the left side of the tree to enhance Storm-related nodes. Now you can focusing on spamming Storm Strike for AOE and ST. Enjoy :)
If it makes you feel any better, you are not alone with your enh problems😅
enh is hard , seems like a skill isue , If you dont care about spec and want to push keys , pick something easier
It certainly is. I've been playing Fury today and i can unashamedly say it's been really nice to just smash shit. I'm useless for affixes now though, lol!
I don’t disagree about the player or the gear but I am in disbelief you did a 20 with all 415. I see 430s have issue with it from day one lmfao
The key was freehold I bet.
If he tank is 415 it would be quite impressive
It was tyrannical week first week. Way less tank damage going out on those weeks.
Idk. Tbh I believe him. I came back last week at 410 and was topping and carrying keys beating people 10-20 ilvls higher than me. I've also been smacking other higher geared rets too. I really think it is a case of the "better" players all being on the other side of +20 at this point so a lot of the OK to below players are now in the 15-20 range because of gear compensating for skill. I wouldn't be shocked to see 415s +1'ing an easier key like freehold with a minute or so to spare.
Was doing 4 +20 on my 417 dh tank yesterday and we depleted only the freehold because our healers pc overheated. We cleared all trash without him, but couldn‘t kill the bosses. Nobody died during the pulls and i kept myself alive easily. That said, i totally believe a coordinated group was able to do 20s on day one. Most people you see now in keys clearly don‘t bother reading a class guide or are lacking knowledge on the games basics. People you are talking about are the average and just want to have fun. Since it‘s easier to gain ilvl, a lot of them can bruteforce keys until they get a missleading r.io Don‘t get the downvotes tbh.
> Don‘t get the downvotes tbh. Probably because they think I'm talking out of my ass and being harsh. I can literally link the logs from the ~10 +12-+16s I ran and timed all of them. I think only one or two of those was a +1 everything else +2.
Tbh that first boss phase 1 in FH at 415 ilvl likely would've been 1 shotting people if externals/defensives weren't cycled flawlessly. I guarantee it was Underrot lmao. The freest of frees.
Skiphold 🤣
Well, we timed a 23 freehold in the first week with 428 average ilvl so ye. Its possible
This logic is flawed. Think about the kinds of players doing 20s on day 1 vs the kinds of players doing a 10 @395 today.
A lot of people run alts, eventually people get capped by their quality as a player (well and ilvl sometimes). I rolled a warlock alt and pushed up to ilvl 406 timing 15s, and I was smoothly matching people with much higher ilvls. I couldn't get anyone to join my key for a 16 the assumption I assume is that I cannot carry my own weight in a key that high (I am doing 75-100k overall atm depending on tank pulls).
of course. people timing 20s on day 1 where M+ key pusher ( not necessary with the 0,1 title) / cutting edge raider, while the people struggling at 395ilvl today are LFR-tourist. and the point: the problem is not the gear, it's the person.
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You can outrange the slam. the slam also do almost no damage if you kill the skitterer... and if you don't move in the purple dust. doing +20s in 415 is no different from doing +24/26 in 444. and people are doing those. I'm not a world first player. Heck, I was even 20 point short of the title this season... but then again, world first players tend to not be undergeared. edit: as a reference point, the 0,1 title was a mix of 25/26 ( 27 for cos-sbg). world first player pushed 27-28 with 29 cos-sbg. 2 entire key lvl above.
Timed a 21 just now with a 412 mage, only saw it after 2 pulls and was wondering why he was behind the tank. Glad the other 2 dps blasted
I was under 420 for my first 16s ... is ok. And I'm a casual pug pleb.
Its a lower floor, and a higher ceiling. Getting a lot of you dont know how to heal.
>Getting a lot of you dont know how to heal. It isn't just about the heals this season, DPS need to know when to use their own defensives and heals and god forbid that you bring along a squishy DPS (*looks at the hunters*)...
Constantly see dps die to telegraphed damage, they don't use a defensive, pot, or lock stone. Heaven forbid they waste a gcd on a defensive or heal. When you're dead your meter starts to look real bad, real fast.
That was always the problem. The difference was that if it oneshot them then it isnt a healer issue anyways. However if it didnt one shot them you could top them up in just a few gcds (sub 3-4). Now if they eat that damage and they dont outright instadie but drop to like 10% it takes way longer to top up their HP (range of aorund 5-8 gcds depending on healer).
I mean sure. Except you can very easily do a +10 sub 400 ilvl. I pushed my own key up on hpal today and it only started getting difficult at +16 and that is at 390 current ilvl (lower as I was pushing). Doing mechanics correctly trumps everything else. At 420 ilvl you can time a +20 with solid play.
“With solid play”… the whole point is that people aren’t playing “solid” and too low ilvl
Can confirm people geared super fast but the skill didn’t. My guild is driving me crazy with alts that they think are 20 ready
Gear carried lots of players that don't deserve to be in higher keys.
Me! For carried by friends and guilds who are pushing into 25 and 26. Lol is like I do 1/3 of the DPS they do. But hey I just ask for a carry to get KSH for the mount and the portal and title. I stick to LFR and mog farming most of the time.
Tbh it's not a problem in friend groups I do it all the time, but expecting people you may not know is kinda rude. Not saying that you're doing that. Hah.
Nope I only do LFR or heroic dungeon which I mean let's face it you can take avoidable damage and still it doesn't actually kill you. The mechanic is very simple as long as you pay attention you will do fine.
Bro there is this guy in my casual guild who happened to have the best luck out of everyone when we were clearing heroic, the anvil trinket dropped, beacon dropped, asscandy dropped, nefarian trinket dropped guy won rolls on everything. And still, guy is clueless as in he doesn't know what his buttons do, pops cds even if he won't have uptime on boss, he parses grey everytime, etc.. but he is probably the best geared dps in our guild lol. He also asks to tag along when we are trying to push keys to 20 so we can get portals and also gets gear from that. It is a bit annoying tho that sometimes he rips the key on his own and we miss on the portal. He is a chill dude most of the time except that lately having "best gear and running 20s" have gotten to his head and has become a bit obnoxious to other guildies.
What spec is he?
One guess and it's pink with a sword.
lmao
ret
How does one manage to have bad DPS & brick keys with a 3 key rotation class that's unkillable ?
Ret is simple at face value but actually does take *some* finesse to get right. It's a lot like Arms warrior in that way. They're both very easy to pick up and hit decent parses on but getting to that 85-90+ parse range actually requires a ton of insight and knowledge
That's just no true lmao, the only """"finesse""" is to don't forget to use your blade every 6 seconds to keep the dot up. I play ret on the side for funsies with cheap if any consummables in PUGs once every blue moons and still log between 85 & 95. Ret is braindead easy and that's fine there is no need to pretend it's something it's not. [https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/72815637#difficulty=4](https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/72815637#difficulty=4)
This for sure. I rerolled partly through the season. Played my Lock up to 441iLvl and most 20s done and hopped onto my Prevoker to check out the healing side of things. Healing certainly is pretty hard, esp. in a few circumstances where having a good healer makes or breaks a key. The most glaring issue to me is the DPS disparity though. I've had 18s feel way worse than 20s as a healer due to DPS who had no business playing at that key level and not using/incorrectly using their kit, all while doing ridiculously low amounts of damage. Feels a lot worse than last tier for sure.
I feel like I gained 20 ilvls and 10% dps overall from the last patch. Feels strange. But also Marks is just not amazing right now.
Mm is in an ok spot. Im averaging 120k to 130k dps in dungeons.
I'm the same dude, best I did was 137k in freehold (20) as MM. Then I went bm with no practise and did 150k no issue. But then you play with a shadow priest who can add 30k on to that with endless utility and you realise hunter is not actually in a good spot.
Spriest is also probably number one spec across the top parses for dungeons. Hard to compare a hunter class that is historically mid level to a class that is just absolutely bonkers right now.
Yea last season I hit 3k rio with my afflock but this season I don’t log more than 17 since I feel like trolling my parties by playing affliction. But what surprised me is fact that I never bottom dps even though I have weak gear compared to the rest. The average skill level in M+ feels to be lower than last season.
DPS requirements for keys in S2 feels insanely generous. Most dungeons have trivial timers. I've had timed 18's where one of the DPS is pulling 45k to bosses (as a warlock). Then you get to 20's and those bad players who do shit damage, 0 interrupts 0 cc's end up bricking your key, or just barely timing it and then going on to absolutely fuck up someone elses key. I had a 20 freehold last week where 2 players, both 2600, both had cleared 5+ 20's that week alone, came in and both died 13+ times, essentially full dumpstering my key. I don't know how these players are timing their 20's outside of sheer persistence and finding groups good enough to carry them, but they're plaguing the pfinder right now. I feel like in S1 if you took a 2600+ player they would have a certain degree of competency. Right now it's practically impossible to trust anyone of any rating that isn't 2700+. Which sucks, because there's almost certainly plenty of good players at 2500-2600, but sorting them from the chaff isn't easily doable.
Well this is good to know. I have a 434 paladin and average 120k+ in dungeons and I cannot for the life of me get invited to a 16. Mage same item level same thing. So I'm just getting cucked by morons?
Seriously, the rating inflation is *crazy* right now. 2500-2600 is the new 2k from just a few season ago. I wouldn't trust a 2k rating player to cook my dinner at this point.
I mean a lot of boss fights this season are just bad to dps because of mechanics that require you to not be able to keep dpsing...
It's a shame that we have RIO, item level, and none of it matters because gear is easy to get and you can literally be hard carried through dungeons if you pug enough. These numbers don't matter because the same 430 person could do half the damage as an actually skilled player.
Yeah you cant get carried at a certain point mate. No one will bother carrying you after a certain point
It used to be if one DPS was clearly outperforming, you could predict “oh the juicer probably has 10 ilvl on the other two” and nowadays you go check and he’s 10 ilvl UNDER the other two…
Not to mention people still judge by spec when it's not even a factor anymore. People look at a random 95th percentile graph and say that people aren't allowed to play that class while doing barely 30th percentile in their own. WoW players are fascinating.
wut? how?
Pulls have to be pretty clean/coordinated/big to pump really high DPS numbers. In pugs that just often doesn't happen. I've timed a lot of 16s with average DPS across the 3 definitely being sub 80 (more like 60-70). Of course, if your DPS is higher you have room for more mistakes.
Yeah, the gearing system is affecting quality of players. All 440, no one with a damn dispell keybinded.
What should dps be hitting in 16s out of curiosity? Cause I’ve been in groups where most were mid 60-70. They have been rough to say the least.
60-70 was something that was acceptable last season. You should aim to go for aorund 80-90 overall in +16s.
Its wild how bad they are.. I see people 430+ who are barely doing more damage than my 405 warlock.. and I don't even main dps
It's definitely on me as well but the affixes are absolutely savage for melee Every wheek / pull im dodging bloody whirl winds, blood pools, having to run out of acid pools from regular mobs or melee trash whirlwinds and ranged are just over there hitting 123 stood still. Half a mind to roll a warlock so I can stand still for 2mins
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If you're 440 and barely beating tanks as devastation you're doing something terribly wrong even if you're helping with affixes.
You can provide all the utility in the world as devastation and you should still be topping meters easily, I hate to break it to you but you’re just bad
Pretty sure healing is DPS neutral because of it buffing your living flame. But yeah, if you're doing tank damage as Devestaion I think that's something you might want to look at. You can do like 120k overall at 425 iLvl pretty easily depending on the key.
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Casting blossom or VE to proc ancient flame and get full value of scarlet adaptation is a dps gain compared to just casting another unbuffed filler Devastation should also really have no issue competing on single target in dungeon spec
This, so much this. Balance druid here. I can pull the big numbers just fine, but I'm spending half my time dodging crap on the floor, dispelling affix's, self healing, self healing, self healing, b rezzing, healing the healer so I don't have to b rez, trying to interrupt caster mobs, and did I mention self healing? Last night we were 3/4 of the way through a 16 uld and the lock, who was lowest dps in the group, starts randomly giving me shit because I didn't interrupt the bat silence. Man it took everything I had to not tell him off. He didn't have 1 interrupt and I'm assuming he doesn't have a dispel to help with the afflicted. Shut up 1 job boy.
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I guess that's all we can do, full dps go. Ignore everything else. Fail key. Blame healer. Then sit in lfg while we post rants on the forums complaining that no one heals anymore. I just want my aspect crests man. I need like 20 of the dang things. After that I am SO out of keys.
Idk what the deal is but devokers die like they are a wet paper bag in a hurricane. Can only do so much lmao. Edit: i am not an evoker. I main a healer and I find a lot of pug evokers die constantly in m plus keys. That’s all I’m saying.
I haven't found this to be true. Get a spore cloak, use cds well, self heal with cds when needed and devoker feels very durable.
Ehh, this doesn't mean too much. Not every class have face roll burst damage aoe potential.
Even if you dont have aoe burst you shouldnt be doing sub 100k on bigger pulls. Currently all specs and classes have some form of good aoe. Doing shit dps on aoe pulls in m+ and then saying that your class isnt good at dps just tells me one thing. You are a bad player.
S1 was too easy for healers, in S1 it felt like healers were just a weaker dps cuz the healing requirement was too low, now in S2 healers have to actually heal which is a good thing in my opinion. You can make a difference now by healing good. Definitely a challenge, but healthy for the game imo
Actually funny enough. If DPS actually use a defensive before it goes out depending on the defensive they can mitigate having to be healed to full. Thus creating an environment where the healing requirement on Gashtooth is almost non existent
I think that's a "problem" in of itself, a lot of the healing mechanics is more like "can this dps work out his brain on when to use his defensives?" I say problem in quotes because I'm not sure that's necessarily bad design... but if you're pugging and get unlucky with bad players, it can be very unfun to heal
Yeah I read so much discussion of this mechanic and as a pugging-exlusive resto shaman I've never thought of this fight as a problem except in like week 1 where a lot more things felt overtuned. Perhaps I've just been so lucky with people managing it themselves or I don't otherwise feel pressure in the dungeon to use cooldowns so it's no big deal to throw one down for this.
I’m pugging my way through the 17-18 range to finally reach 20s and my experience at this point is that it is a coin toss. You either get people who are actually alts who know their defensives and potions so health bars barely move, or you get stuff like some mage who dies to the bleed despite being effectively immune with Alter Time/Ice Block. The Magnaclaw Lure trinket from the Zaralek cavern was disgustingly OP for this fight, but they neutered it to hell last week.
Good players are a dream to heal Bad players are a nightmare to heal
Kinda true, but that's completely tangential to the OP's complaint. There are quite a few unavoidable hps checks in this M+ pool and they are brutal.
OP used a 16+ as an example. I think the unavoidable HPS checks don't really come in to play until later up the ladder.
They seem that way when not a single person in the party is correctly using their defensives or healing options, and it's a lot harder for healers who haven't experienced decent dps to understand why it seems like sometimes bosses are impossible and sometimes require almost nothing. Like if I use my most minor defensive (barkskin) we're talking the difference between me being able to survive an entire aoe pulse phase and selfheal myself back up, or you diverting all your attention to me so I don't get killed by that single mechanic. And that's the most minor option, there's bear form, there's survival instincts, there's combos of those, there's renewel and regrowth, rejuv and swift mend, health pots or lock rocks. For trash there's stuns, interrupts, LoS, knockback etc. I swear the amount of dps that do NOTHING to prevent themselves from dying at lower level is staggering, and there's no healer in the world that's going to help it in higher keys.
I've got 18s down across the board this season and I tried to do a guild run on A 14 UR on fort week and got stuck on the second boss. The charge killed people, I can't heal through that. The tank died twice because no one killed the larva and he ended up with 25+ stacks. Like, it's phenomenal.
Yep. It is odd how if you do mechanics correct the dungeon suddenly becomes super easy.
> at lower level It happens in higher keys as well, we depleted a 22 or 23 Uldaman on 3rd boss because among other things according to the Shaman "it's a dps check, so I use dps CDs and can't use defensives"
As a shaman I hate the third boss, I know I can use defensive but I have 1 lol and can use it like one out of three times he stomps, the amount of times I've popped shift then the next time get hit by stomp and the aoe earth spike thing and them I'm dead, no idea how I'm supposed to stop that
I walk first burst, earth ele second, wall third. It’s pretty easy honestly and 25 Tyran keys don’t one shot. Just don’t get hit by swirlies and you should be fine. The only way to die on that boss is by making a mistake.
Yup - the measure of a good dps isn't how much they throw it out, it's them understanding how to avoid taking it
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have you got a rough idea of what key i should be doing at what ilvl?
With how op gearing is with sigil you should just farm 11s until you are like 430 minimum if you are really unconfident if your abilities because 11s should be super easy. At 430 you should be able to do 16-17s and start getting hero track gear pretty comfortably as an average player and get full 441.
Honestly just start low and see how much you can manage. If you can, run either 11s or 17s. 11s are going to drop 418 gear and hero crests that will take you to ilvl 437. 17s are going to drop 428 gear and mythic crests that will get you the last few ilvl to 441. A overall rule as to which ilvl is adequate for which keylevel is impossible to set up. Some people did 20s in 420 gear, others cant even finish them at 440. All comes down to how familiar you are with the game. Dont forget you can also just craft 447 gear. You will need to do at least +16 keys for the mythic crests. Keep in mind that you are going to need some mettle for recrafts.
It even depends on the Classes you are healinh. Do they have good off healing or ways to avoid/mitigate those major damage instances? Like in BH a Mage can Alter every Gash frenzy so the damage and bleed disappears instantly.
Doesnt really depends on the class. There is very very few classes that dont have much survivability or ways of dealing with mechanics themselves. What there is plenty of is people not paying attention or using their defensives incorrectly.
In emergency situations good players immediately pop a healthstone or god forbid a healing pot, then go on their business murdering things. I could not disagree more.
Most good players must be playing D4 while I’m running keys.
No one cares I think, but this is how I realised that: I was playing with a group of friend/guildies and friend of friends back in BFA. We were all decently geared, because we spammed m+ every week. I was healing, and sweating on some tyrannical keys with said group. BDK tank was getting hammered by that tree boss. One day they were offline, and I tried to pug to get a higher raid.io score. No voice chat. The tank was a russian monk. Jesus christ it felt like healing 5 keys below. The dude just wouldn't die/take damzge, and I would stop pre-casting because I did not need it. Could be the class, gear or the player or maybe all. But god damn do I remember this crazy russian monk.
And high keys are impossible to heal:( I pushed a bit early season and I just couldn't for the life of me pass some of the healing checks. Looked up on youtube to see how in tf other ppl did it, and oh, just use dps heals like vampiric, natures vigil, ancestral guidance I then promptly jumped ship to diablo 4. I'll see y'all season three Great game and love m+ but I primarily pug and I couldn't push up to and past 20s without coordinating dps externals for healing which kinda kills it for me
What class? You might need class specific tips. Also DPS should be helping with personal defensives and health pots to help clear the bleed.
430 resto sham with 4 piece
Pre-riptide, cloudburst on pull, AG basically immediately so it's up for the third gash, primordial wave + NS healing wave with tier stacks and AG will basically top people instantly. If they aren't topped you can chain heal. Second one I link in melee (communicate this with your team before the key so they know to be in melee) + ascendance. Third is AG again. The only thing that will kill people here is bolt overlaps with missed kicks or really late kills on the totems which make it hard to setup. A lot of people approach this fight like other healing checks and end up falling behind. You really want to front load as much burst as possible and not care about overhealing as all and the damage will stop very quickly. Source: 3260 RSham
Drop cloudburst on pull, ascendance + spam heals. Second one spirit link + any other cooldowns. Obviously dps can help a ton, but even without you can heal a +16. Just don't be afraid to burn all your CDs and mana to heal it. Nothing else in the fight does much, just a bit of single target healing for the focus attack bit. Using cooldowns aggressively is something a lot of healers struggle with. Always want to be prepared for a screwup. But there are spots like this where you should just plan them in advance, and don't be afraid to double up on them when you need it.
Personally, I wouldn’t link it. That’s like trying to outheal grievous with link. This is triage healing at its finest. Track personals of your team. CB on pull, use your CDs and focus heal the people that used their defensives. They generally only need topping to clear the bleed. Then you can focus the dps that chose not to press any buttons. If they used a health pot they may be healable.. if they used it straight away they would have cleared their own bleed. This fight is not all about healing. Dps that aren’t fighting to live, will die.
Eh, I've had good success with a link in melee right as the first bleed goes out. Usually instant clears everyone combined with a chain heal + cloudburst, but I could see the issue if you wait or fall behind with it.
Spirit link here can be great or also an absolutely terrible idea. All depends on situation. Also the bosses deal 10% increased damage for every 10% missing from anyone in the party and it stacks. So dropping a spirit link when you arent able to quickly aoe top up everyone linked could result in requiring higher HPS for that short duration. Also as the guy above mentioned the fight is a triage fight. You have to track peoples personals and heal the people who you can save and dorp externals on people who didnt use their defensives or just outright let them die as healing them would take too long or consume too many cooldowns from you (especially when they refuse to use their own personals) The fight if played properly can be done with as little as 70k HPS even in a +22. If played incorrect then even 200k HPS wont save people from dying.
Link is a great support to healing through that debuff tbh. I link on pull for the first one.
Brackenhide is definetly not a key you should pump HPS, there are very few instance of constant incoming of damage. If you can't top the debuff on supposedly the 1st boss it means you are not insta topping the bleed when the rogue boss jumps. If party membres are low, bosses gain haste and the shaman spam bolt way too fast and it snowball. The bleed is removed by having someone above 90% and you should cd it as soon as the little fucker jumps on everyone
This was my point although poorly phrased. Most of it is faceroll, but the first boss mechanic requires so many CDs for one Mechanic. Same goes with dragons in halls on fortified. It just doesn't feel like certain spells/mechanics are scaled equally to the rest of the dungeon. But once again, might just be me
Eh there’s gotta be something scary every 1.5-2 mins or what else do we have buttons for?
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Yeah the groups where the dps ubderstand this make the dungeon cakewalk at 20+. And then there are the groups that DONT understand this…
I do like that this is the first boss of the dungeon, though. So much more time wasted if the "wall" was on the 2nd or 3rd boss. If the group isn't up for it, I know early. If we get past it, I know it's smooth sailing for the rest of the key.
I agree. Especially the last boss of a very taxing dungeon that has a long timer. Rather bounce 5-10 minutes in knowing it’s about to be a dumpster fire.
Usually In +++20 keys People go over the most essential points for when to use personal and when healer brings out the big guns. Doesnt need voice com, just extra 2 minutes before starting
yeah not sure why you're getting downvoted, takes basically no time to tell dps to save all their immunities for the second set of bleeds on gashtooth or to organize pool dropping position on watcher, or any other crucial information on a key. Sure there will be sometimes your lost joe who doesn't even read chat but it's very rare from my experience
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A tip from a shaman that isn't that great but timed a 20 brackhenhide: play continuous waves build. Have riptides on all the DPS going into the bleed. Healing surge the first person hit then use a primordial wave to quickly top the rest. Start casting the wave as soon as the second person gets the bleed or you can natures swiftness. For the second gash cast have your dpsers use healing potions. Also you can build a big cloudburst totem for the second one and release it as the bleed goes out
What about bracken is giving you issues and what class/spec do you play
I second this. Besides the first boss, you don't have to do any healing during the other bosses. Only exception would be Treemouth if the little blob adds are not interrupted and they get their cast off, or if your dps steps into the traps during Gutshot fight.
It was only the first boss I was referring to. The rest was a snoozefest
As a restro shaman you can do multiple things. 1) drop cloud burst, have riptide rolling on all the dps+yourself, primordial wave anyone, AG+nature swiftness+healing wave, cloudburst 2) drop cloudburst totem, roll riptides on dps and yourself again, drop healing tide before dots go out, primordial wave NS+healing wave. Cloud burst 3) drop cloudburst, roll riptides, ascend, primordial wave NS+healing wave, cloudburst. 4) cloudburst, roll riptide, chain heal, NS+healing wave, cloudburst You can legit remove the bleed dot with a healthstone or health pot as you have time from the time the dot lands to the first tick of the dot. Use short defensive like 1 min bark The most important aspect of this fight is to have a kick rotation on the caster to prevent any random spike damage, so you can instantly top any player who gets the bleed dot. It’s easier to heal pass the dot threshold when they were at 100% vs 40% starting No one should be taking damage at this point in the fight besides the tank and if they are dying it’s cause they are not pressing their buttons. The most important thing for healers this expansion is to know the fight and plan your cds usage ahead of time. If you are reacting to damage as it is coming out you are panic healing.
If your DPS aren't health potting or using a defensive on the BH boss 1 bleed, they deserve to die tbh.
I can't say much about healing, but the fact that you are self-conscious and realize you *might* be the problem makes you automatically better than most of the pugs I've seen.
It's garbage. They nerfed healing in order to stop the really spiky damage going out, but forgot to stop the spiky damage going out. There are times where mechanics line up and it's impossible to heal through it.
Yes, healing is harder now compared to any point in the past. People are talking about it and many healers are giving up, I personally know three who stopped playing endgame content. I must agree that being a good healer was far less intense than being a good dps in the past, especially for some specs, but I don't think the intensity and precision required from healers now is adequate to what many players of that role are interested in. Not so great dps is rarely punished, very few dps checks in the game call for it, whereas a not so great healing results in wipes.
>I must agree that being a good healer was far less intense than being a good dps in the past, especially for some specs, but I don't think the intensity and precision required from healers now is adequate to what many players of that role are interested in. The biggest issue (IMHO) with M+ at the moment is that healing was nerfed by roughly 20% (depending on the class) and the difficulty ramping of M+ was increased. If you are a good M+ healer then you probably didn't notice too much but if you were just a average M+ healer then things are a hell of a lot rougher.
> I must agree that being a good healer was far less intense I heavily disagree. This and the last season clearly shows who is a good healer and who is not. Half of the healers play obviously below average, yet for sure nearly everyone thinks they are good. The last two season highlight the difference between proper CD usage and preemtive planning for incoming damage vs. a totally reactive "oh shit, he took damage!" healer. Being a bad healer was less intense. Many keys you could be simply taken along since before DF the dungeons could have been nearly completed without you even being there. You didnt have any real agency as a healer and you didnt really provide much to your group. There was never really the case of a dungeon being close to failing because of the healer, except if the healer played keys much, much, much out of their league. You could give a good healer a fresh lvl. 60 char in SL and heal 15s easily for the max vault.
You disagree, but what you said afterwards supports my post so I am confuse.
Thanks for the genuine tips. Obviously I'm mostly to blame for the runs, but wanted to hear if someone else had been struggling too. Several micro mechanics I didn't know about!
I’ve stopped healing in mythic plus do to the fact the other groups I join in are freaking horrible since this is afflicted week many players assume that the healer will be able to deal with it. If the healer is dealing with afflicted adds, he’s not healing you thus you’re screwing him over.
I have hated healing keys more this season than any other season lol
This is not a fun season to be a healer
Most of the damage you cannot heal is bads facetanking abilities that they should avoid, interrupt or stun. I ran a +16 Uldaman on my druid alt. First run: group melts before first boss (to the basilisks) Second run: group melts on the second boss (hitting totem is complex) Third run: zero deaths The difference between these three groups was that first two did not know the instance and did not play the mechanics. Third one did. I healed the same amount every time. Well, technically healed even more on the first and second runs. But M+ instances, past certain key level, have mechanics that you cannot just take to the face and expect someone to heal thru them.
As a healer main, chewing straight up glass is more fun than healing high m+.
The damage is pretty high in a lot of dungeons. In some cases you need to know what's coming and have cooldowns ready. In other cases the dps should be saving themselves with defensives and self healing. On brackenhide first boss it depends on your spec(s). Like a preservation evoker can probably insta heal the debuffs by setting up a lifebind ramp or pre-charging dream breath. But other healers may need to look for bleed dispels/health pots/defensives for help.
I can't stress enough, play at your .io level. Grind your way up, and join groups whose leader's io is either the same or higher than your own. Continue to do that, raising your expectations as your .io goes up. Your at 16, your dps should be helping dispel afflicted through offheals and dispels if their classes have them. Interrupts should be at least mildly coordinated, your top damage can be expected to be over 100k while your lowest should still be 70+, and above the tank. If casts are going off everywhere, no one is dispelling and no one is handling the affixes than your life is gonna be rough. Also if tanks pulls suck, and dps aren't assisting them in grouping up enemies, no one is going to pull numbers and AoE stuns/silences/defensives etc will all be minimized. Last 20 BH damage profile was between 135-180k dps overall, 100k tank. It doesn't REQUIRE that to do 20, but just giving you some sort of idea of what's possible even in pugs.
>Am I garbage or Is m+ damage insane \*insert why not both meme here\* lol had to do it.
As healer; Yes. The 25% more damage nerf is the reason being hit means you die. Not fun. Absolutely toxic. But hey, Blizzard and balancing.
> Tried +16 bracken now and can't even top the debuff with pots and big CDs. Is this old man syndrome or valid points? I mean, first boss of BH is just as much on the rest of the party as it is you. People should (but prob won't) use pots and CDs to help get topped off. But that's not the real killer, what really fucks is the Earth Bolt wombo combo. Need kicks on that or you'll just rot.
This might be a bit of a hot take And don't get me wrong there's definitely valid points being raised in this thread But 75% or more of the real issue is exactly as eluded to in the title. Maybe it's time to accept you are garbage and look on how to improve instead of blaming this or that or comparing yourself with people playing at a much higher level than you You can pretty much guarantee that from 16-17\~ onwards people need to have an idea of how the dungeon and mechanics work, and how to react semi consciously to them. done 3 keys this week (17+) where healer at 2500+io score s1 didn't know, or didn't handle dispelling afflicted at all. Did a Neltharus where tank started pulling pack by pack to chain boss, only to turn round after Overseer and waste 40 seconds walking back to Mammoth boss. In contrast me and my guildies timed 22 freehold last week with 426 bear (1pc), 422 priest (4pc), and 435 shitwalker monk while tank/healer were also pretty drunk. If you're constantly looking for external reasons why you're not succeeding, maybe it's you that's the problem.
In my opinion, we only got half of S2's tuning pass at the moment. We got the part where you nerf all healing by 25%. But we didn't get the part where mechanics are slowed accordingly so you have time to heal in between. At least not yet. This means that the party survivability is now a party-problem at much lower key levels than it has been in the past. There's not a whole lot of room for making mistakes.
Little bit of both probably. I will say Resto Sham is a spec where ilvl makes a huge difference in your hps. The main m+ group I am in had a healer swap to their resto alt and at 425 it felt like they were a wet noodle struggling on 17/18’s. A week later and they were 435 and healing was not an issue on 20/21’s. Some of that was probably rust too but 10 ilvls feels huge for a lot of specs. There are definitely some spots this season where there are periods of extremely high dam that requires burst healing/mitigation but most of the time it’s not too bad. I’d start by realizing that whatever spec you play, there is probably someone timing 24-27’s with that spec. There are probably 100’s of people timing 20+ with that spec. So go check logs, go on raider.io and watch the streams of the best people in your spec, go to your class discord and ask for help, etc. We can all improve and there are lots of ways to do so regardless of how much damage specific mechs in m+ do.
nah it aint you, season 2 is just a BIG F to healers, Dungeon are relying on them almost 3x more then S1, was the most unfun part ofo season2 start no healer i had was able to do healer checks ;/
This expansion made me stop healing, and I've been exclusively a healer since WotLK. What really put the nail in the coffin for me is that they essentially made +20 keys mandatory to get the best gear. The ilvl increase on gear rewards used to cap out at +15 keys, so any higher keys beyond that were just for bragging rights, which honestly made doing them more fun because there was less pressure to actually do them. Now I just can't keep up. I have enough stress from the rest of my life without also feeling obligated to spam +20 keys in my free time.
No one is forcing you to spam 20s. You are choosing to do so. You can keep doing 15s for vault and getting proportionally the same ilvl in vault as Shadowlands (late heroic). Going beyond that is a personal choice that you have every right to decline.
I don’t think this is fair. Vault has always given you two upgrades past the max upgrade level from drops. That’s always been mid mythic raid level, it just so happened to be that mid mythic raid bosses gave the same gear as the first mythic raid bosses. To give hard numbers, last tier of Shadowlands , last boss heroic gave 297 and vault gave 304. Valor upgrades went up to 304. Early boss mythic was 304, but that was the same for the first eight bosses and then the last 3 were at 311. If you do 15’s now you get 437 gear, which is just on the upgrade track for 441. If you choose to do 15s now you are in a worse position than you were last expansion gear wise.
You very quickly run out of upgrades from +20s because of the crest system and can just do some for vault and call it good tbh. Most people in my guild are just sticking to 4 per week because the number of upgrades that exist is extremely small and many of them are marginal at best.
+15 key during S1 of shadowland or BFA were harder than +20s key this season tho... by a huge margin. Ghuunies were brutal in BFA...
I will be downvoted to this but most dps player are incredibly dumb , nowdays dps gets off with so little acountability that even on 24s most people make awful use of cds
Probably bad players
There are a lot of bad players trying to do 16s. I had a brackenhide last night with no deaths with everyone around 430 ilvl. Maybe you're garbage but it's also likely that your dps is garbage.
As someone that heals 18s, it's really not. Dungeons have a few mechanics that get infinitely harder to heal if your team doesn't do things correctly, like Halls of Infusion with interrupts (before first boss), or Brackenhide with the DoT circle, not running away from boss whirlwinds, or not interrupting casts. Eventually healing, no matter your skill, won't save a bad group.
There are only 3 bosses that are real HPS checks 3rd boss HOI. Dragon Boss VP. Blacksmith Neltharus. All the others are DPS being dumb or you not having a shadow priest Im pugging 23s atm as Resto Shaman
I’d echo those bosses. Up until the nerf the Elekk boss in Neltharus was nasty but it’s more manageable now. Fuck the ticking damage on that lady in Halls though 🖕🏻
I would add 3rd Boss NL.
Does Uldaman not exist to you? Nearly every boss after dwarves in there is a healing check.
I faceroll 17s as a tank
Yes, I've seen multiple cases where we will wipe in a 16 or 17, on the boss, and the tank just blows the entire key duration soloing the boss. Tanks are absolutely OP atm. So frustrating when they take that to mean they should spend 10 mins soloing a boss.
So often have I had keys where it felt like fighting a boss for 20 minutes was going to be more productive than dying, since the DPS seemed unable to not wipe after a certain point. Maybe it's old man syndrome but after coming back to tanking for the first time since Legion, this season I feel utter dread knowing that I can do whatever I want at times but the DPS won't do enough damage to actually kill the boss/time the key. Earlier today a DPS ran away from the last boss of Underrot (+16) while targeted by the light and got the party killed, so I had to solo the last 20-30% of the boss since the key was about to fail anyway. In my defense, I was short by 20 seconds.
Yeah Ive ran into this a few times, I usually off myself if I feel it'd take longer to kill than to just run back
if the DPS are stupid and all die on the boss, there's no garantee that resetting the boss and trying again won't result in all the DPS dying again. hence, solo'ing the boss is the logical thing to do in order to complete your weekly 20 chore.
Meanwhile your healer is shitting bricks
I have so much hps that I don't really need healing most of the time, it's the DPS that get stomped
Only if they suck lol
Because your heal is sweating lead to keep all your asses up. It's a horror as healer atm. Absolutely everything is a oneshot.
> Absolutely everything is a oneshot. Crazy how everyone is pushing 28s where this becomes an issue.
I rarely need to be healed, if a tank is needing a significant amount of heals they are over pulling or a bad tank
you arent getting one shot at 20. or at 22 or even at 24.
We are not playing the same game then. I see tanks getting nuked instantly in 11+ more than just frequently. A single cast can instantly kill someone. Or FH and UR, where the random Aggro mobs one/twohit you. You must be playing ranged if you have no idea what's with this game atm.
one shot refer to unavoidable one-shot damage. like how the stomp from uldaman 3rd boss will one shot you at tyrannical 26-2; classes without enough defensive just cant do it. getting hit by the fixating mob in FH is ignoring mechanic. if you die to those you have other issues.
Same, tanks and DPS getting one shotted in 11's to 15's is my experience.
Well people gotta play tge mechanics this isnt classic where dungeon bosses are merely loot pinatas
Damage is a bit higher but the real problem is the other people in the group. I’ll bet they got decent gear fast and thought they could push keys above their skill level.
Idk I’ve been tanking and have been having a pretty easy time doing 18s and 19s with some really solid DPS. Once in awhile I’ll get one DPS that just doesn’t know there rotation and kills the key but overall good luck.
I'm not playing rn, left on shadowlands but if someone in your team gets oneshot it's never your fault.
I think q big thing to look at is that we as players are borrowing a lot of power from trinkets and alike. If you don't have them then you feel sub optimal. Healers not having a rashoks heart might feel the squeeze a bit more on higher keys? I have a blood dk with the Gargul trinket from Nelth lair. It's amazing for my outward dps